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2015-01-17T00:05:50Z playnu_com_ar_: How can from a string generate a symbol in a macro
2015-01-17T00:06:24Z Shinmera: clhs find-symbol
2015-01-17T00:06:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm
2015-01-17T00:06:26Z Shinmera: clhs intern
2015-01-17T00:06:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2015-01-17T00:07:40Z playnu_com_ar_: thanks!
2015-01-17T00:07:44Z playnu_com_ar_: exactly what i wanted
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2015-01-17T00:31:34Z xyh: how to get the sub 2 dimension array from a 3 dimension array ??
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2015-01-17T00:33:37Z Xach: make-symbol is also handy.
2015-01-17T00:34:13Z Xach: hmm
2015-01-17T00:34:22Z Xach: i shoulda used copy-symbol when i used make-symbol most recently
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2015-01-17T00:51:41Z jasom: Xach: why did you need the properties preserved?
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2015-01-17T02:04:52Z xyh: is there a way to set value of a array without using SETF ??
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2015-01-17T02:05:22Z Bike: fill or something. why?
2015-01-17T02:07:57Z xyh: FILL's arg must be a sequence.
2015-01-17T02:08:10Z Bike: what's wrong with setf, exactly?
2015-01-17T02:09:50Z Quadrescence: (map-into a (constantly CUSTOMIZABLE-VALUE) a)
2015-01-17T02:10:38Z xyh: Bike: for I only want to use macro when one of the arguments should not be evaled.
2015-01-17T02:11:03Z Bike: (setf (aref arr x) y) <-- the aref is not evaled
2015-01-17T02:11:29Z xyh: arr x y are all evaled
2015-01-17T02:11:46Z Bike: So?
2015-01-17T02:11:55Z Bike: The actual argument to setf isn't.
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2015-01-17T02:12:03Z Quadrescence: xyh, show the before and after of what you want
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2015-01-17T02:21:49Z nyef: Good evening, all.
2015-01-17T02:27:28Z xyh: Quadrescence: I am renaming common-lisp's functions to make them more regular
2015-01-17T02:27:29Z xyh: (more regular in my view)
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2015-01-17T02:27:46Z Quadrescence: i see
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2015-01-17T02:32:23Z Xach: jasom: i did not. it's just terse.
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2015-01-17T04:09:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-17T04:11:10Z drmeister: Hello beach
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2015-01-17T04:13:30Z beach: drmeister: How is Clasp going?
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2015-01-17T04:15:23Z drmeister: Well, I got quicklisp and slime working.   Stassats installed it and got slime working but pointed out that on linux clasp is spending about 80% of its time in exception handling.   I figured it was my GO special operators that were causing the problem so I figured out how to identify and convert local GO's (within a function) to simple jumps.
2015-01-17T04:15:43Z drmeister: I'm just compiling the new code on Linux to see if it improves performance on Linux.
2015-01-17T04:16:25Z beach: That would be great if you could get a significant improvement by such a small change.
2015-01-17T04:16:37Z drmeister: I've also been fixing bugs and improving stability because I have a few more users now.
2015-01-17T04:17:28Z drmeister: Yeah.  Linux is at least 4 times slower than OS X - my guess is that it's exception handling that is causing the problem.   Testing now.
2015-01-17T04:17:53Z beach: Why were you using exceptions for local GOs?
2015-01-17T04:17:59Z drmeister: Cleavir is still my main goal - but there have been lots of distractions.
2015-01-17T04:18:12Z beach: No problem for me.
2015-01-17T04:18:59Z drmeister: Well I needed exceptions for non-local GOs to work in a C++ compatible way and profiling on OS X didn't indicate that it was a big problem.  So I didn't worry about it.
2015-01-17T04:19:17Z beach: I see.
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2015-01-17T04:25:33Z drmeister: On OS X profiling shows that the 4.3% of the time is being spent in _dynamic_cast.  That's the biggest single user of time - then there is a loooong tail.  There is nothing really I can point to and say - that's the bottleneck.
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2015-01-17T04:26:16Z beach: Not a great situation if you need to improve the performance.
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2015-01-17T04:35:40Z beach: drmeister: I am giving HIR a good spin.  It seems to have compiled the methods of ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION-USING-CLASS without a problem.
2015-01-17T04:36:39Z beach: drmeister: The other day when I compiled the expansion of the SICL LOOP macro, I found a bug where it could not handle a PROGN without arguments, but that's all I have found for more than a week.
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2015-01-17T04:38:32Z jasom: drmeister: I'm surprised linux is so much slower due to exception handling; isn't it built with the same version of clang either way?  Or is exception handling tied to the c++ standard library?
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2015-01-17T04:58:29Z drmeister: The code that handles exception handling is different on Linux and OS X.  There is a known problem with exception handling on Linux.
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2015-01-17T05:00:47Z drmeister: beach: Excellent news on LOOP.   Would it be stand alone enough to run in Clasp?
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2015-01-17T05:01:24Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I consider it finished, because it passes all the tests.  Better error reporting would be nice, though.
2015-01-17T05:02:32Z beach: drmeister: What implementation of LOOP does Clasp use?
2015-01-17T05:03:13Z drmeister: It's got a copyright from MIT
2015-01-17T05:03:30Z beach: OK.  Same as SBCL probably then.
2015-01-17T05:03:34Z drmeister: jasom: I can't find the GCC issue on the exception handling bug at the moment.
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2015-01-17T05:03:41Z drmeister: for linux
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2015-01-17T05:08:24Z drmeister: Well, that's nice. Not great - but nice.
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2015-01-17T05:08:45Z drmeister: Now on linux exception handling is only taking 40% of the time rather than 80-90% of the time.
2015-01-17T05:09:02Z drmeister: It's peppier now as well.
2015-01-17T05:09:19Z beach: What is using exception handling now?
2015-01-17T05:09:36Z jasom: drmeister: I thought clasp was built with clang, not gcc?
2015-01-17T05:09:48Z drmeister: GO to tags in different functions. RETURN-FROM, THROW
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2015-01-17T05:10:03Z drmeister: jasom: It still uses the GCC libraries.
2015-01-17T05:10:04Z beach: drmeister: There aren't very many of those.
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2015-01-17T05:10:11Z jasom: ah, so it is a stdlib issue
2015-01-17T05:10:23Z drmeister: It's Unwind_Find_FDE in libgcc_s.so
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2015-01-17T05:11:14Z jasom: there are so many tradeoffs in implementing C++ exceptions
2015-01-17T05:11:29Z beach: drmeister: It doesn't look right that there would be so many non-local GOs RETURN-FROMs and THROWs that it would take up 40% of the time.
2015-01-17T05:11:50Z jasom: a lot of times real-world code is faster if you optimize for smaller code versus faster exceptions, since you always pay for larger code, but only pay for slow exceptions if you take an exception
2015-01-17T05:12:35Z drmeister: beach: There is a known bug in Unwind_Find_FDE - I also expected a bigger payoff - I will have to investigate further.  I'm kind of stuck using C++ exceptions for non-local exits.
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2015-01-17T05:13:04Z drmeister: jasom: I'd like to talk with you more about that.
2015-01-17T05:13:16Z drmeister: I need to get to bed.  I've been up too late too many nights.
2015-01-17T05:13:18Z beach: drmeister: Sure, I am just saying that there shouldn't be very many of those.
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2015-01-17T05:13:44Z drmeister: I agree.  I'm just looking at the profiling - I don't know where that 40% of time is going.
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2015-01-17T05:13:57Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KreRiLgC
2015-01-17T05:14:00Z jasom:  if every return and return-from generates an exception, that could be it
2015-01-17T05:14:23Z drmeister: That's compiling the Clasp common lisp code.
2015-01-17T05:14:32Z beach: Most of them are local though.
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2015-01-17T05:15:15Z drmeister: I don't optimize local RETURN-FROM yet.  I'll do that next.  Now that I see a boost from optimizing local GO I am emboldened.
2015-01-17T05:15:55Z drmeister: I better get to bed.  Goodnight folks
2015-01-17T05:16:02Z beach: 'night drmeister.
2015-01-17T05:16:35Z drmeister: jasom: I just found the bug report for the bug that I think I'm stressing.
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2015-01-17T05:16:36Z drmeister: https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=56460
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2015-01-17T05:27:45Z jgrant: Does SBCL have some circular dependency thing, or something?
2015-01-17T05:29:35Z |3b|: sbcl needs a CL compiler to compile, if that's what you mean (sbcl is the most tested option for that, though they try to keep it working on others)
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2015-01-17T05:38:29Z jgrant is trying to figure out what would be the easiest decently tested CL implementation to package for Guix would be. Namely, to run Stumpwm.
2015-01-17T05:38:40Z jgrant: This seems like Clisp might be a better way to go.
2015-01-17T05:39:03Z |3b|: clisp or ecl just need a C compiler as far as i know, not sure how either does with stumpwm
2015-01-17T05:39:16Z Bike: there's a #stumpwm. i think clisp but not ecl can run stump.
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2015-01-17T05:39:57Z jgrant: Bike: I know historically Clisp has been used with Stumpwm, haven't ever tried it though.
2015-01-17T05:40:34Z Bike: don't know why a package system couldn't handle sbcl, presumably it has gcc in it
2015-01-17T05:41:03Z Bike: the package system does, i mean
2015-01-17T05:41:35Z jgrant: Bike: I'm sure Guix can, it's just having to package another CL implementation to get to SBCL ... for the short term, I don't care enough.
2015-01-17T05:42:00Z jgrant: Yeah, the only CL implementation Guix currently has is "gcl".
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2015-01-17T05:42:21Z Bike: no, i mean, presumably gcc depends on itself for build and nobody cares
2015-01-17T05:42:30Z jgrant: Bike: Ah.
2015-01-17T05:43:21Z jgrant: I don't "care" per say about it either way for SBCL, sans it being more work ultimately for me that I don't think it's probably worth to bugger with SBCL over Clisp.
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2015-01-17T05:44:45Z jgrant: Yeah, the only depend it looks like is ffcall for Clisp.
2015-01-17T05:44:59Z Bike: sounds right.
2015-01-17T05:45:26Z jgrant: Well, I meant that I need to package.
2015-01-17T05:45:44Z jgrant: It also has libsigsegv and readline, but Guix has both of them already.
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2015-01-17T06:19:40Z jasom: jgrant: there are sbcl binaries you can use to bootstrap an sbcl build anyway
2015-01-17T06:20:28Z jgrant: jasom: I mean, yeah, I suppose. I guess it's mostly irrelevant assuming I get Clisp packaged... which makes sense, since it's a GNU project and so is Guix.
2015-01-17T06:20:31Z jgrant: :^P
2015-01-17T06:20:40Z akkad: which PG books are to be avoided for new CL devs/
2015-01-17T06:20:43Z jgrant is currently working on libffcall nowanways.
2015-01-17T06:20:51Z jgrant: now anyways*
2015-01-17T06:20:54Z jasom: jgrant: does guix build from source?
2015-01-17T06:21:07Z jasom: b/c you could also just ship a stumpwm binary
2015-01-17T06:21:09Z jgrant: jasom: You can specify, by default it does though yeah.
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2015-01-17T06:21:56Z jgrant: I'm probably going to have a stumpwm-base, stumpwm-contrib, and just stumpwm. "Stumpwm" would just act as a metapackage for both of these.
2015-01-17T06:22:35Z jgrant: jasom: There's some system implemented in Guix, that you can build from Nix ... haven't played with it yet, but still not worth it in the long run.
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2015-01-17T07:38:48Z flip214: doing (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op #P"....") seems to crash SBCL ... no REPL answer, only "INFO: Control stack guard page unprotected"
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2015-01-17T07:54:22Z beach: It probably shouldn't crash, but I don't think passing a pathname to ASDF:OPERATE is a possibility.
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2015-01-17T08:07:35Z |3b|: looks like an asdf bug, (asdf:find-component nil x) where X is something it doesn't understand (like a path or number) returns X, which it interprets as having found a valid component and continues trying to load, which just goes back to same method since it doesn't have a more specific method for that type
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2015-01-17T08:09:11Z |3b| gets an error from sbcl in terminal though
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2015-01-17T08:11:15Z ecraven: |3b|: I get the same error, but on trying to abort, I get what flip214 said
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2015-01-17T08:12:10Z |3b|: so 2 problems, asdf gets confused, and sbcl sometimes doesn't handle stack overflow as well as one might hope
2015-01-17T08:12:23Z |3b| wonders if the asdf problem is that someone didn't think about NIL being a symbol
2015-01-17T08:12:43Z |3b|: no, i guess it checks it
2015-01-17T08:12:46Z gingerale: Hmm.. Is there a library for poking the bios for things like CPU temperature? Can't find anything on CLiki
2015-01-17T08:12:57Z |3b| isn't sure what it is trying to do
2015-01-17T08:13:17Z |3b|: gingerale: probably better to go through OS, in which case it is hopefully just a file read or FFI call
2015-01-17T08:13:32Z gingerale: Yeah, probably. Just wondering.
2015-01-17T08:13:38Z |3b|: haven't heard of any library for either method though
2015-01-17T08:14:02Z ecraven: gingerale: is there a bios call for temperature? I'd guess that's more of an acpi thing (on linux at least)
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2015-01-17T08:14:43Z jgrant: So, now that I took a step away ... yeah, bootstrapping from a binary of SBCL might be easier than fudging with Clisp.
2015-01-17T08:14:45Z gingerale: Well the way I understand is that BIOS provides the information to the OS through which you usually get the information.
2015-01-17T08:15:25Z ecraven: gingerale: I don't think that is true any longer. it used to be this way years ago, but now I think everything is handled directly by the OS (under 64 bit at least)
2015-01-17T08:15:37Z ecraven: but I might be totally wrong about this :)
2015-01-17T08:15:43Z gingerale: Ahhh, okay
2015-01-17T08:16:00Z |3b| 's understanding is that os (or user space programs) just look for ramdom known devices on various busses to figure out temperatures :/
2015-01-17T08:16:17Z |3b|: nothing as nice as a well defined bios call
2015-01-17T08:16:38Z ecraven: gingerale: http://wiki.osdev.org/ACPI
2015-01-17T08:17:19Z Zhivago: bios calls are nice?
2015-01-17T08:17:44Z |3b|: "as nice as", so relative not absolute
2015-01-17T08:18:49Z gingerale: Could be worthwhile making something someday for checking core temperatures and load and other information. I'll add that to my ever growing backlog of things.
2015-01-17T08:19:04Z Zhivago: I think I'd want a device abstraction over those. :)
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2015-01-17T08:20:13Z |3b|: for linux at least, not sure if there is something comparable for windows (osx might actually have an API for it, no idea)
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2015-01-17T08:49:34Z Shinmera: Good morning, #lisp
2015-01-17T08:49:59Z ecraven: morning :)
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2015-01-17T09:09:53Z beach: Hello Shinmera.
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2015-01-17T09:39:09Z beach: What condition is most appropriate to signal when the arguments to a function do not correspond to the lambda list of that function?
2015-01-17T09:40:17Z Shinmera: There's a few different ways in which the lambda-lists can not match up, so I'd have different sub-conditions for each.
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2015-01-17T09:41:20Z beach: Yes, I agree.  I just wanted to know whether there is a Common Lisp standard condition (other than ERROR) that could be the root class of those.
2015-01-17T09:42:51Z beach: I am guessing ERROR is it.  I just want to be sure.
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2015-01-17T09:43:52Z Shinmera: For invalid number of arguments SBCL signals SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR, a combination of SIMPLE-CONDITION and PROGRAM-ERROR.
2015-01-17T09:44:11Z beach: Yeah, I noticed.  PROGRAM-ERROR is wrong though.
2015-01-17T09:44:33Z beach: It has to do with program SYNTAX.  Not with runtime errors.
2015-01-17T09:44:45Z pjb: beach: you may consult http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ea.htm  in general, it's a PROGRAM-ERROR that is specified.
2015-01-17T09:45:03Z pjb: Of course, you can use a subclass of program-error.
2015-01-17T09:45:04Z Shinmera: Ah, well, there you go.
2015-01-17T09:45:41Z beach: Hmm.  That contradicts the page on PROGRAM-ERROR.  But yeah, OK.  Thanks pjb.
2015-01-17T09:45:59Z pjb: Yes :-)
2015-01-17T09:46:13Z pjb: notice that there are case where the compiler can detect and signal those errors.
2015-01-17T09:46:19Z beach: Sure.
2015-01-17T09:46:25Z pjb: See http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_eaaa.htm
2015-01-17T09:46:35Z beach: I guess the page on PROGRAM-ERROR should be clarified in Common Lisp version 2.
2015-01-17T09:46:47Z pjb: Notably: function calls that may be inlined, can be checked at compilation time.
2015-01-17T09:47:31Z beach: Yeah, and also the ones in the same compilation unit, in an implementation that chooses to do so.
2015-01-17T09:47:43Z pjb: Compiling: (with-compilation-unit (defun f (x) x) (f 2 2)) -> program-error because f can be inlined and therefore the compiler can generate the error and consider it a syntax error.
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2015-01-17T09:48:02Z beach: Indeed.
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2015-01-17T09:49:01Z pjb: It could be a nice feature to issue notes about functions that are inlinable (theorically and practically) when compiling a unit.
2015-01-17T09:49:49Z beach: Sure, why not.  It will take me another few months before I'll work on that aspect of SICL, though.
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2015-01-17T09:50:43Z beach: Another nice feature would be no muffle all those notes and compilation messages.
2015-01-17T09:50:51Z pjb: Of course :-)
2015-01-17T09:50:57Z beach: Warnings often drown in the noise.
2015-01-17T09:51:26Z pjb: compile-file could take additionnal key arguments to activate those features.
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2015-01-17T09:52:55Z beach: That doesn't seem to be allowed, though.  It would have to be special variables then.
2015-01-17T09:53:51Z beach: I guess one could provide an implementation-specific COMPILE-FILE variant.
2015-01-17T09:54:25Z pjb: sicl-toolbox:compile-and-comment-file  :-)
2015-01-17T09:54:36Z beach: Yes. :)
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2015-01-17T09:55:14Z beach: I still remember the first time I used SBCL, though.  Having become used to Unix tools for some time before that, I was shocked by the verbosity of the compiler.
2015-01-17T09:56:13Z beach: To me, such verbosity is justified only when there are no better tools available to determine the reason for compilation errors.
2015-01-17T09:56:31Z beach: But it seems to me that such tools are now available.
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2015-01-17T10:00:47Z beach: Since we are on this subject, it would be nice if trace outputs were presentations in SLIME.
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2015-01-17T10:01:19Z beach: Now, the text is just sitting there with something like #<stuff>, and it can't be inspected.
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2015-01-17T10:59:41Z novemberist: hello. how can i non-destructively put an element of a list to the beginning of a list?
2015-01-17T10:59:52Z novemberist: the same list that is
2015-01-17T11:00:39Z beach: novemberist: (cons element list)
2015-01-17T11:00:46Z beach: clhs cons
2015-01-17T11:00:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm
2015-01-17T11:02:37Z ggole: novemberist: do you want to remove it from the rest of the list (eg, move it to the front)?
2015-01-17T11:03:36Z novemberist: i want to be able to e.g. turn '(a b c) into '(b a c)
2015-01-17T11:03:54Z beach: novemberist: How do you identify what element you want to move?
2015-01-17T11:04:04Z ggole: (cons elt (remove elt seq :count 1)), maybe
2015-01-17T11:04:05Z beach: By position?  by identity?
2015-01-17T11:04:26Z novemberist: identity
2015-01-17T11:04:38Z beach: What if there are several elements with that identity?
2015-01-17T11:05:12Z novemberist: that's what i was going to think about later
2015-01-17T11:05:28Z novemberist: for my simple example, let's assume that won't ever be the case
2015-01-17T11:05:29Z beach: novemberist: What ggole said, then.
2015-01-17T11:05:48Z beach: ... and you don't need the :COUNT 1 then.
2015-01-17T11:05:55Z novemberist: thanks
2015-01-17T11:07:42Z beach: Anytime.
2015-01-17T11:08:26Z ggole: The :count 1 might do a bit of beneficial short-circuiting
2015-01-17T11:08:34Z beach: Right.
2015-01-17T11:08:47Z beach: novemberist: Are your lists going to have many elements?
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2015-01-17T11:09:12Z novemberist: well, actually it would be more usefull is there was a way to remove an element from a list, only where it first appears. would that be possible? e.g. (remove-first '3 '(3 3 3)) would become (3 3) ...
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2015-01-17T11:09:35Z beach: That's what the :count 1 is about.
2015-01-17T11:10:27Z novemberist: okay, than i would actually only need the remove bit without consing anything
2015-01-17T11:10:30Z novemberist: thank you
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2015-01-17T11:36:31Z novemberist: i can't seem to wrap my head around what i'm trying to achieve :(
2015-01-17T11:38:14Z Shinmera: Usually not a good sign.
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2015-01-17T11:41:15Z novemberist: true, but it's good practice i hope
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2015-01-17T11:43:54Z novemberist: as a first step, i want to calculate the results of all possible operations that can be performed given 3 numbers (die rolls) and the 4 operators + - / *
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2015-01-17T11:44:20Z novemberist: i could write every function seperately, but that would be tedious
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2015-01-17T11:45:06Z novemberist: but i can't think of a good pattern to abstract this
2015-01-17T11:45:10Z Shinmera: I can see an easy way to do that, but I don't know if I should tell you or let you figure it out on your own.
2015-01-17T11:45:36Z novemberist: just tell me. it's killing me ;)
2015-01-17T11:46:02Z Shinmera: Well, first I'd need to know whether you mean 1+2+3 and 1*2*3 or also things like 1+2*3
2015-01-17T11:46:16Z novemberist: every combination that is possible
2015-01-17T11:46:24Z Shinmera: Ok
2015-01-17T11:46:37Z |3b|: or (+ 1 (/ (- (* 2 3))))
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2015-01-17T11:47:37Z |3b|: or (- (- (- (- (- ...))))) if repetition of operators is allowed :p
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2015-01-17T11:48:51Z |3b|: though i guess if you only care about results, most of those are redundant
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2015-01-17T11:49:30Z novemberist: only two operations per combination
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2015-01-17T11:49:57Z |3b|: how about (+) and (*)? (0 and 1 respectively)
2015-01-17T11:51:56Z Shinmera: novemberist: here's a primitive recursive version. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/8J#
2015-01-17T11:52:10Z Shinmera: This preserves the order of the numbers
2015-01-17T11:52:20Z Shinmera: now you might also want to have every possible order of the numbers
2015-01-17T11:52:45Z Shinmera: Which would make it quite silly.
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2015-01-17T11:53:41Z ggole: This doesn't generate both 1 - 2 and 2 - 1, right?
2015-01-17T11:53:48Z Shinmera: That's what I just said
2015-01-17T11:53:50Z novemberist: there is this game where you throw 3 dices and have to use the 3 results to get to 15 using the 4 basic mathematical operations (if 15 is not possible, the highest possible number below 15)... every number can only be used once. i want to basically get an overview over all possible combinations for every 3 numbers i provide...
2015-01-17T11:54:15Z ggole: Well, there's probably no point in generating both versions of the commutative operators.
2015-01-17T11:54:38Z pjb: novemberist: if you want to study your problem more deeply, you could have a look at TAOCP, the chapters concerning tree enumerations.  (Volume 4 Fascicule 4).
2015-01-17T11:56:38Z novemberist: thanks for the help, i will try to grasp  Shinmera's function first
2015-01-17T11:58:45Z novemberist: for sure it does exactly what i was looking for :)
2015-01-17T11:59:00Z Shinmera: It doesn't do all combinations according to the rules of your game though
2015-01-17T11:59:44Z |3b| would just enumerate all possible combinations rather than worrying about a specific combination of numbers
2015-01-17T12:00:15Z pjb: novemberist: are you seeking a textual combination, or a sexp (tree) one?
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2015-01-17T12:00:34Z pjb: Ie. do you want thigns like 1+2*3 or (* (+ 1 2) 3) ?
2015-01-17T12:01:57Z novemberist: eventually, i only want to display the best possible combinations, so i'd have to evaluate them
2015-01-17T12:02:25Z pjb: novemberist: I haven't seen any specification.
2015-01-17T12:03:12Z pjb: (+ (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)) --> 15
2015-01-17T12:03:22Z novemberist: that's the part i wanted do try on my own ;)
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2015-01-17T12:05:08Z |3b|: looks like 1448 combinations of #s and operators that result in an integer, 948 between 0 and 15
2015-01-17T12:05:57Z |3b|: (counting permutations of triples of numbers)
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2015-01-17T12:07:40Z novemberist: oh, there are division by zero cases in there
2015-01-17T12:07:51Z |3b|: yeah
2015-01-17T12:08:14Z novemberist: got to filter those out first
2015-01-17T12:08:25Z |3b|: or just ignore-errors and filter after :p
2015-01-17T12:08:41Z novemberist: ;)
2015-01-17T12:08:46Z ggole: A rough stab at one approach https://gist.github.com/f8b194b969f26798f327
2015-01-17T12:09:03Z ggole: Hard coding the arity is pretty ugly though
2015-01-17T12:09:04Z |3b| supposes you want ratios too though, 1454 of those between 0 and 15
2015-01-17T12:09:24Z ggole: (And binary operators only, integers only.)
2015-01-17T12:10:21Z novemberist: yes, integers only is what i want
2015-01-17T12:13:10Z novemberist: ggole: i'm going to study your solution, thank you :)
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2015-01-17T12:14:06Z Shinmera: I wrote a general enumerator macro at some point, but I forget where and why.
2015-01-17T12:16:28Z novemberist: would be nice if (counting-evaluating-to 15 5 5 5) treated 5 5 5 as one possible combination and not 3...but that's probably too much for now
2015-01-17T12:16:53Z novemberist: (+ 5 5 5) i meant
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2015-01-17T12:18:25Z ggole: novemberist: you could add some logic for that (as an exercise).
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2015-01-17T12:19:14Z novemberist: ggole: good idea
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2015-01-17T12:29:29Z |3b|: if i'm calculating right, 5,6,6 is only combination where best move isn't integral (/ 6 (/ 5 6))=7.2
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2015-01-17T12:31:27Z |3b|: (or a few other ways of calculating same value)
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2015-01-17T12:32:15Z novemberist: i don't think non-integers would be legal in the game though ;)
2015-01-17T12:32:59Z ggole: You'd have to be using quite interesting dice at the very least.
2015-01-17T12:33:26Z |3b|: well, still 7, which is only best move for 2 combinations, so doesn't matter too often
2015-01-17T12:33:28Z novemberist: i think the real game is actually played with 6 dices
2015-01-17T12:33:47Z novemberist: but for the sake of simplicity i wanted to stick to 3
2015-01-17T12:34:18Z |3b|: hmm, nested loops would get a bit messy for 6 :p
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2015-01-17T12:44:43Z |3b|: yeah, looks like 6 would take a bit of thought to do in a reasonable time
2015-01-17T12:45:39Z |3b|: what is target value for 6 dice?
2015-01-17T12:45:49Z novemberist: also 15
2015-01-17T12:46:25Z novemberist: but i'm not going to touch this anytime soon ;)
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2015-01-17T12:46:53Z |3b|: well, my stupid code can do 5 dice in 7 sec or so, so 6 shouldn't be too bad
2015-01-17T12:47:13Z |3b| gets 13 out of 252 combinations that can't sum to 15
2015-01-17T12:47:20Z |3b|: (of 5 dice)
2015-01-17T12:47:48Z |3b|: and assuming dice with numbers from 1-6 inclusive
2015-01-17T12:48:32Z novemberist: yeah, 6 dice obviously make the game much more interesting and usefull
2015-01-17T12:49:03Z |3b|: dunno, 6 dice might just reduce the number of combinations that can't sum to 15
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2015-01-17T12:49:29Z |3b|: so 'more interesting' if you have to think about it, but less if you have a table of answers
2015-01-17T12:50:34Z novemberist: the table of answers is not supposed to be a cheat sheet ;) it was just some random problem i thought i might try to solve
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2015-01-17T12:53:38Z novemberist: maybe i can make a game out of it, but it's probably hard to make an AI that doesn't cheat
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2015-01-17T12:56:40Z |3b| supposes memoizing the leaves instead of whole trees isn't very productive :p
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2015-01-17T13:01:36Z Zhivago: There is generally no need for cheating. Just have it advance the least expensive plan.
2015-01-17T13:02:10Z |3b|: looks like only 5 combinations of 6 dice that don't have a 15 possible (dumb version finished before i could write a better one :p )
2015-01-17T13:03:01Z |3b|: 4,4,4,4,4,4 2,2,2,2,2,2 1,1,1,1,2,2 1,1,1,1,1,2 1,1,1,1,1,1
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2015-01-17T13:03:43Z novemberist: i know this has maybe been asked a million times before, but why is there so little actual software written in common lisp? lispers in general seem so competent. i wonder why no larger public project has ever emerged from this community...
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2015-01-17T13:06:20Z beach: Because the community is small, probably.
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2015-01-17T13:14:10Z beach: novemberist: There is no reason to believe that just because the members of a community are competent, there ought to be a "larger public project" emerging from that community.
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2015-01-17T13:15:30Z dim: I think the lisp curse paper is to be cited here, with huge frighting quotes because you need not believe everything in it
2015-01-17T13:15:32Z |3b| wonders if the relative amount of software per competent developer is quantified enough to even ask the question in the first place
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2015-01-17T13:15:42Z dim: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2015-01-17T13:17:11Z |3b|: seems to be lots of "actual software" from what i've seen... multiple windowing systems, multiple editors, compilers, web servers & frameworks, a 3d modelling program, multiple? music typesetting programs, airplane design, etc
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2015-01-17T13:17:50Z |3b|: might not be much 'free' software, and some of it might not be used much anymore
2015-01-17T13:18:34Z novemberist: at least in my linux distro's repos i can't really seem to find a lot of stuff written in cl, apart from libraries
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2015-01-17T13:19:26Z nyef: G'morning all.
2015-01-17T13:19:31Z beach: Hello nyef.
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2015-01-17T13:20:41Z |3b|: novemberist: well, at least some parts of the "cl community" don't care about things getting into distros, and distros probably don't care about looking for CL things, so that probably biases that measure a bit
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2015-01-17T13:21:58Z beach: nyef: What are you working on these days?
2015-01-17T13:22:00Z novemberist: no offence. it's just kinda hard for a beginner to get a feeling for if it's worth to learn a certain language if there's not really a lot to look at
2015-01-17T13:22:37Z beach: novemberist: That particular part you don't have to worry about.  There is more to look at than you will ever need.  Much of it high quality on top of that.
2015-01-17T13:22:57Z beach: novemberist: Now, if you want to show off with your pals, you might choose something that is more "cool".
2015-01-17T13:23:18Z novemberist: beach: no, that's not the point
2015-01-17T13:23:37Z nyef: beach: Paid work, mostly, but I just (over the past couple of days) started getting back to trying to get a Linux kernel running on my SGI. I'm also hoping to have enough spare time this weekend to do some planning on NQ-CLIM so that I can pick that up again.
2015-01-17T13:23:54Z novemberist: besides, i think common lisp seems pretty cool from what i can tell
2015-01-17T13:23:59Z beach: nyef: Great!
2015-01-17T13:24:20Z beach: novemberist: It is a great programming language, definitely.
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2015-01-17T13:26:13Z Shinmera: novemberist: Cl people tend to not put things into distro package distribution systems because it's fragmented, annoying, and not that well suited towards CL in particular
2015-01-17T13:26:34Z Shinmera: novemberist: The generally accepted way of distributing open source CL software is via Quicklisp
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2015-01-17T13:28:09Z novemberist: as a basically non-programmer the syntax really appeals to me. feels very "natural" to express my ideas ... i just hope i've not just stepped onto a sinking ship ;)
2015-01-17T13:28:36Z Shinmera: Lisp has existed for many decades, if it is sinking (which I don't see) then it's so slow you probably won't notice.
2015-01-17T13:28:39Z beach: novemberist: Learning Lisp will never be a waste of time.
2015-01-17T13:28:52Z novemberist: Shinmera: but that's not how you would ship your software to someone who doesn't program in common lisp ?
2015-01-17T13:29:20Z Shinmera: novemberist: If you mean end-user distribution, usually you'll dump a binary.
2015-01-17T13:29:37Z beach: novemberist: Why should we care about people who don't program in Common Lisp?
2015-01-17T13:30:45Z novemberist: well if every programmer had that mindset, we wouldn't have any software that non-programmers can use at all...
2015-01-17T13:31:26Z beach: novemberist: There are enough programmers in other languages with that mindset.
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2015-01-17T13:32:01Z Shinmera: If you want to make an application for end-users, you write your thing in CL and dumb a binary, then ship that binary. Done.
2015-01-17T13:32:05Z Shinmera: *dump
2015-01-17T13:32:12Z Shinmera: Freudian slip, probably.
2015-01-17T13:32:24Z beach: Heh, probably, yes.
2015-01-17T13:32:37Z Shinmera: Getting things into distribution's package managers is orthogonal to CL development.
2015-01-17T13:32:38Z novemberist: not a nice thing to say, though ;)
2015-01-17T13:33:00Z drmeister: Shinmera: Hello - I sped up clasp on linux maybe 2x
2015-01-17T13:33:11Z Shinmera: drmeister: That is very good news, are the changes in yet?
2015-01-17T13:33:22Z Shinmera: drmeister: I started a build earlier this morning.
2015-01-17T13:33:42Z Shinmera: novemberist: IIRC dim has his pgloader in debian f.e.
2015-01-17T13:33:57Z drmeister: Not yet.  I was building on linux overnight to test it.
2015-01-17T13:34:02Z Shinmera: Alright.
2015-01-17T13:34:10Z drmeister: Everything worked fine, integrating into the preview branch now
2015-01-17T13:35:29Z drmeister: Ok, it's pushed to preview
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2015-01-17T13:37:48Z novemberist: Shinmera: i don't have a problem with little or no packages in the distro's repos per se ... i was just wondering, because i have a feeling that cl and its many free implementations fit quite well into the whole gnu/linux and foss ecosystem.
2015-01-17T13:38:04Z Shinmera: novemberist: I'd disagree
2015-01-17T13:38:34Z Shinmera: novemberist: Mostly because CL is (almost) an implementation of a lisp machine, so you basically drag along your own ecosystem, rather than using whatever the OS provides.
2015-01-17T13:38:50Z Shinmera: *Mostly because your CL implementation
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2015-01-17T13:40:26Z novemberist: don't know what to think of this escapism really ;)
2015-01-17T13:40:49Z novemberist: but i will get familiar with the cl ecosystem, i guess
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2015-01-17T13:43:33Z beach: novemberist: One thing might change what Shinmera says.  If a good free Common Lisp implementation can be distributed as a large shared library and smaller executables, then it might be possible to sneak into the package manager infrastructure.
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2015-01-17T13:44:40Z beach: novemberist: Right now, there is no such implementation available.  This is not a problem for Lispers at the moment, because we think of Lisp as an environment apart from the OS.
2015-01-17T13:46:13Z Shinmera: And man am I glad I can have that luxury.
2015-01-17T13:46:46Z novemberist: but you don't merely exist in the repl. you still need your emacs running on top your actual os and not in some sort of lisp os
2015-01-17T13:47:03Z beach: novemberist: So?
2015-01-17T13:47:13Z Shinmera: Yes and your OS runs on hardware. Doesn't mean you have to write machine code.
2015-01-17T13:47:19Z beach: novemberist: That doesn't mean it currently fits into the package manager infrastructure.
2015-01-17T13:47:53Z nyef: Do you get your node.js packages as part of the package manager infrastructure, or do you use NPM?
2015-01-17T13:47:55Z |3b|: package manager infrastructure works better for things for lots of users though
2015-01-17T13:48:21Z |3b|: otherwise it ends up just freezing a particular set of bugs for N months/years, without adding any stability
2015-01-17T13:49:09Z |3b|: or if not lots of users, lots of developers, so there are enough to backport fixes to each particular frozen version among the various distros
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2015-01-17T13:50:07Z novemberist: i'm just saying, you can't just disregard the outside world completely. there are probably lots of non lispers out there who would like to use software written in cl if it were good
2015-01-17T13:50:25Z novemberist: give and take, so to speak
2015-01-17T13:50:47Z Shinmera: And we're saying it's not a main concern, and if you do want to you can always see about getting your whatever into distributions.
2015-01-17T13:51:10Z Shinmera: For developers themselves, Quicklisp is a much better system than OS package managers
2015-01-17T13:52:49Z novemberist: i'm not judging. just trying to understand the mindset and the roots of the lisp community, because it seems quite different from other programming communities.
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2015-01-17T13:53:15Z novemberist: Shinmera: i do like quicklisp, never said anything against it
2015-01-17T13:53:50Z Shinmera: novemberist: I wasn't thinking you did. I'm merely saying that your concern is something reserved for few of the things CL people like to do, so there's little point in worrying about it except for when it comes to it.
2015-01-17T13:53:51Z H4ns: we like to believe that when unix is finally dead, we're still using commmon lisp :)
2015-01-17T13:54:08Z H4ns: 2038 is not that far away, mind you
2015-01-17T13:54:27Z beach: What will happen then?  A Y2K-style bug?
2015-01-17T13:54:34Z Shinmera: Unix time integer overflow
2015-01-17T13:54:37Z H4ns: time_t will overflow
2015-01-17T13:54:42Z beach: Nice! :)
2015-01-17T13:54:51Z H4ns: yeah.  that will be celebration time
2015-01-17T13:55:14Z novemberist: have there actually been recent attempts to create something like a "Lisp OS"?
2015-01-17T13:55:22Z H4ns: in hindsight, one must be thankful that they've time-bombed unix when they've created it back in the day.
2015-01-17T13:55:43Z nyef: novemberist: Define "recent".
2015-01-17T13:55:59Z nyef: Also, "something like".
2015-01-17T13:56:05Z novemberist: post 80ies
2015-01-17T13:56:17Z nyef: Post 80s? Yes, several.
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2015-01-17T13:56:29Z Shinmera: One of which you can even get to run, using a VM!
2015-01-17T13:56:32Z Shinmera: (wowsies!)
2015-01-17T13:56:32Z nyef: Movitz, for example.
2015-01-17T13:56:40Z novemberist: an os based on lisp that runs on x86 hardware
2015-01-17T13:57:10Z nyef: AIUI, it's also one of beach's long-term goals.
2015-01-17T13:57:21Z eudoxia: i got Movitz to compile and run, didn't do anything with it
2015-01-17T13:57:44Z Shinmera: I forget, does Open Genera run on x86?
2015-01-17T13:57:51Z nyef: No, it requires x86-64.
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2015-01-17T13:59:29Z novemberist: well, it's safe to assume if there was a satisfactory solution, you guys would be running it already by now.
2015-01-17T13:59:54Z novemberist: so i guess the answer is somewhat "no"
2015-01-17T14:00:10Z Shinmera: That is faulty reasoning
2015-01-17T14:00:37Z H4ns: if lisp is so great, why is not everybody using it?!?!
2015-01-17T14:02:16Z novemberist: totally different question. because not everybody know it and because people have already adopted another language that they prefer...but since you seem to be striving after an all-lisp system , i don't see why you wouldn't use it. if there was one...
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2015-01-17T14:03:38Z H4ns: novemberist: you've been expressing your doubts a lot now.  maybe enough for you to decide that lisp is not for you and chose something more to your liking?  your "questions" are becoming an annoyance.  you need to accept that people have different needs and desires.  deal with it.
2015-01-17T14:04:21Z nyef: novemberist: Imagine that there WERE an all-lisp system... But that it was black-and-white, and didn't have WiFi, a web browser, a music player, the ability to read PDF documents or anything produced by whatever they're calling "star office" these days. Would YOU use it?
2015-01-17T14:04:54Z nyef: Or it didn't even have graphics-mode drivers, it was stuck in 80x25 text mode.
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2015-01-17T14:05:06Z Shinmera: The problem is people need many things, and even if one system excels very much in one area, you'd probably settle for a system that kind of just works for everything else too.
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2015-01-17T14:07:04Z novemberist: H4ns: That's faulty reasoning now. Assuming that lisp is not for me because i am curious about certain things. I didn't ask you anything specifically, so feel free to ignore me
2015-01-17T14:07:36Z nyef: That's not faulty reasoning, that's probabilistic reasoning.
2015-01-17T14:08:55Z novemberist: still not a fair assumption to make
2015-01-17T14:09:55Z beach: novemberist: Here is some reading for you that might shed some light on your questions: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
2015-01-17T14:09:57Z novemberist: considering it was the first thing he actually said to me, he got annoyed pretty quickly
2015-01-17T14:10:06Z Shinmera: The "lisp popularity" thing is a very tired and much too often repeated topic.
2015-01-17T14:10:21Z Zhivago: Well, you do seem to be having a lot of trouble with it.
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2015-01-17T14:11:13Z beach: novemberist: What Shinmera said.  We know these discussions by heart, and we know the outcome.  You just happened to be the one that brought it up this time.
2015-01-17T14:13:03Z beach: nyef: Did you see that SICL LOOP now passes all the ANSI tests (excepts the one that are in violation of the standard)?
2015-01-17T14:13:21Z nyef: beach: I probably didn't. Congratulations.
2015-01-17T14:13:27Z beach: Thanks.
2015-01-17T14:13:50Z Shinmera is worried about all the times he wrote (loop while foo for bla ..) breaking
2015-01-17T14:14:06Z beach: I need to work on error detection and reporting, but right now I am eager to use it in my "ParaSICL" environment (the one that uses the extrinsic HIR compiler).
2015-01-17T14:15:54Z beach: Shinmera: Hmm, yes, not so good.
2015-01-17T14:16:12Z novemberist: beach: well, but it's not a bad thing to reflect on some things every once in a while, is it? and if it's just to be even more convinced afterwards. you said yourself, this community is very small. so can it not bear some questions from a newbie every once in a while. i don't see hundreds of people streaming into the channel asking stupid questions about lisp. i didn't want to know whether lisp is better than language X, i was just
2015-01-17T14:16:12Z novemberist: trying to convere  a little more casually with the community i am seeking to become a part of.
2015-01-17T14:16:23Z Shinmera: beach: It's so sad because that's such a useful construct to have
2015-01-17T14:17:05Z Shinmera: novemberist: You underestimate how often and how old and boring this line of questioning is
2015-01-17T14:17:07Z |3b|: novemberist: stay for a year or 2 and you will :/
2015-01-17T14:17:14Z pjb: novemberist: most linux distributions are also binary distributions, where you have to take very special steps to get the sources of the software.  Also, there's a single C ABI, which allows C libraries to be distributed in binary form whatever compiler they're compiled with, and use with any other C compiler (mostly).  But this is not the case of Lisp, therefore lisp libraries have to be distributed in source form.
2015-01-17T14:17:18Z Shinmera: novemberist: There's been decades of this same thing and it never ends, and is always the same.
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2015-01-17T14:17:47Z pjb: novemberist: otherwise, there are lisp applications distributed in binary form, and not distributed at all.
2015-01-17T14:18:07Z beach: novemberist: Perhaps, but I think we have had our dose for this time.
2015-01-17T14:18:22Z novemberist: beach: i agree
2015-01-17T14:18:29Z pjb: novemberist: you may browse http://cliki.net/ and of course, quicklisp to get a feel of the range of what's available.
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2015-01-17T14:19:29Z novemberist: i should get to learning/programming instead of philosophizing, i guess :)
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2015-01-17T14:19:42Z pjb: novemberist: You may use (com.informatimago.tools.quicklisp:quick-install-all) to install all the systems provided by quicklisp.
2015-01-17T14:19:58Z Shinmera: Over a thousand of them!
2015-01-17T14:20:06Z ggole: C ABIs used to work that way, but there's a lot more breakage these days
2015-01-17T14:20:07Z novemberist: pjb: already done that, i'm a quicklisp user and familiar with cliki
2015-01-17T14:20:36Z pjb: novemberist: so you have already read the documentation and tried out the thousand libraries you got with quicklisp?
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2015-01-17T14:20:50Z pjb: novemberist: what are you waiting to write a few apps using them?
2015-01-17T14:22:00Z novemberist: pjb: of course not, i was just saying i know about the existence of quicklisp and cliki already. and that's a godd question...i shall start right now
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2015-01-17T14:22:23Z pjb: ok. So you still have a lot of work before you.
2015-01-17T14:23:14Z novemberist: so do all of us in one way ore another, i guess
2015-01-17T14:23:22Z pjb: Yes :-)
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2015-01-17T14:24:29Z pjb: beach: libecl.so is already a good free CL implementation distributed as a large shared library and smaller executables.
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2015-01-17T14:25:42Z novemberist: anyways, thanks for all the help and remarks to all of you. and sorry for getting on your nerves. i shall return when i have something to show for.
2015-01-17T14:26:01Z pjb: novemberist: do you think that "there are probably lots of non lispers out there who would like to use
2015-01-17T14:26:01Z pjb: software written in cl if it were good" is true?
2015-01-17T14:27:35Z novemberist: well, the average user doesn't care what language a program is written in, so if it's a usefull program...why not?
2015-01-17T14:27:49Z pjb: So you say you think it's true
2015-01-17T14:27:51Z pjb: novemberist: Are there lots of non lispers out there who use software written in cl?
2015-01-17T14:29:53Z novemberist: i think it's true. and no, i guess there aren't...for the reasons we've been talking about for the past hours. the average user doesn't start a repl and install software with quicklisp. if there were binary packages or some other way of distribution...i don't see why they wouldn't use it.
2015-01-17T14:30:53Z novemberist: again, not saying that this is something that should be targeted. just answering the question from my pov.
2015-01-17T14:31:17Z pjb: Then you think that software written in CL is probably not good.  A⇒B ∧ ¬B ⊢ ¬A
2015-01-17T14:32:11Z novemberist: no, i didn't ... i gave one specific and unambiguous reason.
2015-01-17T14:32:32Z Xach: novemberist: there is a strong contingent of "if common lisp doesn't already do it well, it must be a dumb thing to want" sometimes. it can be profitably ignored.
2015-01-17T14:33:32Z pjb: novemberist: sociology studies can hardly be performed on irc. If you're really insterested in the mindset and the roots of the lisp community, you should set up a proper study with the right methodology.
2015-01-17T14:34:01Z Zhivago: Lure them to a conference.
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2015-01-17T14:36:16Z novemberist: just for the record: it's not me who's keeping this discussion alive.
2015-01-17T14:37:20Z pjb: novemberist: I'm saying, you may want to revise some conceptions, and it may be useful or at least interesting, to perform some real but serious sociological study, rather than mere defamatory blog posts.
2015-01-17T14:39:23Z pjb: novemberist: perhaps a more interesting question would be why there's no talk of writing a PHP OS, or a Python OS.
2015-01-17T14:39:40Z novemberist: i don' t want to study anything of the like, just get a feel for it. i want to learn to program in common lisp and eventually write programs.
2015-01-17T14:40:00Z Xach: novemberist: dim has done a pretty amazing thing with pgloader
2015-01-17T14:40:20Z Xach: I would listen to whatever he says about the challenges he's faced
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2015-01-17T14:40:35Z novemberist: yeah, now you take everything i wrote about an hour ago out of context to go over it again?
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2015-01-17T14:41:06Z Xach just arrived, missed the hour ago
2015-01-17T14:41:32Z pjb: beach: ParaSICL is a very good name for it, I think. :-)
2015-01-17T14:41:33Z novemberist: Xach: not you, i meant pjb
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2015-01-17T14:42:08Z pjb: Yes, I read irc by batches.
2015-01-17T14:42:14Z Xach: oh, pjb writes mostly nonsense and can be ignored.
2015-01-17T14:42:33Z Xach: any useful things that sneak in are usually phrased better by others.
2015-01-17T14:42:59Z novemberist: pjb: I already gave up on the discussion, so no use in dragging this on.
2015-01-17T14:43:06Z pjb: I'm done.
2015-01-17T14:43:10Z novemberist: good
2015-01-17T14:43:29Z pjb: Notice that you may have more meta discussions in #lispcafe.
2015-01-17T14:43:57Z novemberist: pjb: that's not what i desire, but thanks for the info
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2015-01-17T14:48:32Z wasamasa: novemberist: perhaps ##lisp then
2015-01-17T14:49:10Z novemberist: wasamasa: i'm fine, thank you
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2015-01-17T14:50:21Z pjb: novemberist: well, it's all described in http://cliki.net/IRC
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2015-01-17T14:53:00Z novemberist: good , but i didn't ask for any advice about irc channels, did i? i've learned my lesson from that uncomfortable off-topic discussion earlier...
2015-01-17T14:53:24Z pjb: Ok. Next question?
2015-01-17T14:53:44Z nyef: pjb: Next question? How about "weren't you done?"
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2015-01-17T14:55:14Z pjb: nyef: yes.  Next question?
2015-01-17T14:55:21Z Zhivago: Bring in the decemberist.
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2015-01-17T14:59:55Z Oberon4278: I was going to say something about the band but then I saw your name and thought maybe you were going for the original use of the word.
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2015-01-17T15:00:38Z novemberist: there is indeed a connection to the band ;)
2015-01-17T15:01:12Z novemberist: is there an original use of the word novemberist?
2015-01-17T15:01:41Z nyef: Someone who really, really likes the ninth month?
2015-01-17T15:02:59Z novemberist: ninth? is this some sort of programmer's joke? ;)
2015-01-17T15:03:10Z nyef: More a linguists joke.
2015-01-17T15:03:24Z nyef: Novem, from the latin for nine.
2015-01-17T15:03:54Z novemberist: oh, i thought because you start counting from 0 in programming languages
2015-01-17T15:03:55Z nyef: Works for every month after the one named for a roman emperor.
2015-01-17T15:04:21Z novemberist: i happen to like november, though. very much so
2015-01-17T15:04:52Z novemberist: and i used to like the decemberists
2015-01-17T15:05:03Z novemberist: so it made sense at the time ;)
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2015-01-17T15:06:48Z francogrex: would you use sdl or ltk for games developement?
2015-01-17T15:08:07Z novemberist: isn't ltk more of a gui toolkit?
2015-01-17T15:09:05Z francogrex: it is, but for simple games as well
2015-01-17T15:09:39Z ebrasca: I like sdl
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2015-01-17T15:10:06Z wasamasa: francogrex: use sdl with something like cairo for the drawing bits
2015-01-17T15:11:31Z francogrex: I had used sdl, I recently was exploring ltk, see if one has some advantages over the other... it seems that ltk has a wider repertoire...
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2015-01-17T15:12:06Z nyef: OpenGL for the graphics?
2015-01-17T15:12:07Z ebrasca: francogrex: Chat it in #lispgames
2015-01-17T15:12:19Z wasamasa: nyef: sdl can use gl as backend :P
2015-01-17T15:12:29Z francogrex: referring to lispbuilder-sdl
2015-01-17T15:12:42Z francogrex: #lispgames
2015-01-17T15:12:55Z nyef: wasamasa: So?
2015-01-17T15:13:07Z wasamasa: nyef: less effort
2015-01-17T15:13:13Z nyef: If you say so.
2015-01-17T15:13:34Z wasamasa: well, you may of course disagree upon the complexity of opengl being tucked away by going that route
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2015-01-17T15:27:04Z francogrex: xsbcl
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2015-01-17T15:40:11Z francogrex: how would you use (conditional) formatting to print this: (format t "~{~r ~}" (list 1 "two" 3 4 "five")) as one two three four five ?
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2015-01-17T15:42:03Z nyef: ... I wouldn't.
2015-01-17T15:42:28Z francogrex: because not possible?
2015-01-17T15:43:04Z nyef: Because even if possible, tricky.
2015-01-17T15:43:19Z nyef: Step one, simplify the problem.
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2015-01-17T15:43:27Z Zhivago: And, regardless, silly.
2015-01-17T15:43:58Z nyef: Not necessarily SILLY, I can imagine it being close to an actual problem that I might encounter on the job.
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2015-01-17T15:45:20Z nyef: But at that point, screw trying to do it purely with FORMAT, pre-process the list, use W-O-T-S, anything to simplify the problem.
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2015-01-17T15:46:09Z francogrex: ok
2015-01-17T15:47:07Z francogrex: the aim is a psychological test, to see if one is able to detect a number written as for example 3 compared to three embedded in a list of other random words
2015-01-17T15:47:40Z francogrex: I will show a sample
2015-01-17T15:47:59Z pjb: (format t "~{~/fmt-english-or-aesthetic/ ~}" '(1 "two"))
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2015-01-17T15:50:39Z francogrex: hold your laughter: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145264
2015-01-17T15:51:56Z francogrex: i could convert the numbers before format
2015-01-17T15:51:58Z pjb: alternatively: (let ((nums '(1 "two"))) (format t "~:{~:[~A~;~R~] ~}" (mapcar (lambda (x) (list (numberp x) x)) nums)))
2015-01-17T15:52:32Z francogrex: pjb: yes
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2015-01-17T15:52:55Z pjb: But since it conses, you may prefer a lot ~/fmt-english-or-aesthetic/.
2015-01-17T15:53:13Z pjb: Since we can see a pattern here, you may even write a mini DSL to define such fmt- functions easily.
2015-01-17T15:53:21Z Zhivago: That shuffle function is impressively inefficient looking.
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2015-01-17T15:54:58Z francogrex: Zhivago: not only the shuffle function (which I copied) but the others I have written myself i am sure are not top notch either
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2015-01-17T16:01:26Z nnmap: trying to understand "error" function: file:///home/vic/books/Docs/HyperSpec/Body/09_aba.htm - what is 'default-type'?
2015-01-17T16:02:04Z nnmap: oops! http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/09_aba.htm
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2015-01-17T16:02:27Z nyef: clhs error
2015-01-17T16:02:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_error.htm
2015-01-17T16:02:47Z nyef: nnmap: Have a look at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_error.htm
2015-01-17T16:03:01Z nyef: Right at the top, under "Arguments and Values".
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2015-01-17T16:04:23Z nnmap: there is also cerror... basically, i don't understand how this works: (cerror "Return sqrt(~D) instead." "Tried to take sqrt(-~D)." n)
2015-01-17T16:04:59Z nnmap: what kind of condition cerror and error create when called with strings and how to use these conditions?
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2015-01-17T16:05:50Z nnmap: (since "cerror effectively invokes error on the condition named by datum")
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2015-01-17T16:05:58Z pjb: nnmap: the same condition: SIMPLE-ERROR
2015-01-17T16:06:20Z nyef: Have a look at, say, WARN.
2015-01-17T16:06:25Z nyef: (I think it was WARN, at least.)
2015-01-17T16:06:33Z pjb: nnmap: the difference is that CERROR wraps the calls to SIGNAL in a RESTART-CASE for a CONTINUE restart.
2015-01-17T16:08:34Z nnmap: mmm... let's try it this way: (make-condition defaulted-type :format-control datum :format-arguments arguments) - is there a description of what :format-control and :format-arguments do? and where?
2015-01-17T16:08:54Z pjb: clhs simple-error
2015-01-17T16:08:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_smp_er.htm
2015-01-17T16:09:57Z nnmap: and then what happens with format-control?
2015-01-17T16:10:07Z nnmap: is it for debugger?
2015-01-17T16:10:36Z nnmap: mkay i guess it's not really important. maybe i'll figure it out later.
2015-01-17T16:10:45Z pjb: those arguments are used to initialize the condition. The condition is indeed passed to invoke-debugger if it is not handled.
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2015-01-17T16:11:22Z pjb: The debugger will probably use (princ condition *debugger-io*) or (format *debugger-io* "~A" condition) to inform the user about the condition.
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2015-01-17T16:12:24Z pjb: So it's actually the condition report method that use those arguments to format the condition.  Each condition defines slots with accessors that can be used by the handlers to access those data and decide more finely how to proceeded.
2015-01-17T16:12:41Z pjb: clhs define-condition
2015-01-17T16:12:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_5.htm
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2015-01-17T16:38:42Z gabriel_laddel: is anyone aware of implementations of `print-object' for ASDF defsystem forms, packages and the like?
2015-01-17T16:39:25Z gabriel_laddel: specifically, I'd like to print a package in the readable (defpackage ...) format.
2015-01-17T16:39:26Z Xach: gabriel_laddel: you mean, given a system or package object, a function that prints out a defsystem or defpackage form?
2015-01-17T16:39:33Z gabriel_laddel: Xach: that is correct
2015-01-17T16:39:48Z Xach: that would be cool. i don't know of something like that. i've thought about the defpackage side a little bit but have not made code to do it.
2015-01-17T16:40:49Z gabriel_laddel: kk. I'm sort of amazed I've not been able to find anything actually. I want to have M-x update-package-exports (finds all external symbols in the current env and updates your package form) etc.
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2015-01-17T16:41:51Z Xach: not everything worth making has been made, yet
2015-01-17T16:42:04Z Xach: gabriel_laddel: there's a slime key combo to export the symbol at point, updating the defpackage form.
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2015-01-17T16:42:37Z gabriel_laddel: Xach: O! Thanks, I'll definitely be making use of that.
2015-01-17T16:43:25Z pjb: In general, it is not always possible to write out a defpackage form corresponding to packages (notably when you've played with import/export at run-time and made circular dependencies.
2015-01-17T16:43:36Z pjb: But you could detect that, or ignore it.
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2015-01-17T17:14:43Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145265
2015-01-17T17:15:34Z pjb: There's a default: when you use a package that exports symbols from used package, it will return a defpackage form with a :import-from the original package instead of just the :used package.  This could be corrected.
2015-01-17T17:20:02Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145265#1
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2015-01-17T17:28:00Z pjb: gabriel_laddel: with an option for different symbol and package formats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145265#2
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2015-01-17T17:52:08Z gabriel_laddel: pjb: Wow thanks!
2015-01-17T17:52:52Z ehu_: hi
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2015-01-17T18:16:54Z xyh: tail call to a multiple-value-function, preserving its multiple-value ?
2015-01-17T18:16:54Z xyh: making the calling function a multiple-value-function too ?
2015-01-17T18:17:25Z beach: xyh: Is there a question in there somewhere?
2015-01-17T18:17:56Z xyh: no
2015-01-17T18:18:06Z xyh: it will be cool if it is
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2015-01-17T18:18:38Z ggole: A tail call "preserves" multiple values, yes
2015-01-17T18:18:52Z ggole: Usually you would just say "returns"
2015-01-17T18:19:17Z beach: Oh, now I get it.
2015-01-17T18:22:43Z Posterdati: hi
2015-01-17T18:22:56Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
2015-01-17T18:23:26Z Posterdati: is the latest quicklisp-slime-helper broken?
2015-01-17T18:24:36Z Posterdati: I installed 2.12 and it is not working on emacs 23
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2015-01-17T18:42:19Z Xach: Posterdati: How so?
2015-01-17T18:42:43Z Xach doesn't have emacs 23 to test
2015-01-17T18:42:50Z Xach: i take that back, i do!
2015-01-17T18:42:52Z Xach tries it
2015-01-17T18:43:17Z Xach: Posterdati: works ok for me. what symptoms do you see?
2015-01-17T18:43:45Z PuercoPop: Oi, there is no api to get the names of the named registers of a regexp in cl-ppcre right? I I want them I'll have to extract them from the result of parse-string
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2015-01-17T18:51:50Z Bike: seens si,
2015-01-17T18:51:52Z Bike: so.
2015-01-17T18:52:09Z Bike: create-scanner has a second value that returns the register names, i guess.
2015-01-17T18:53:20Z Posterdati: Xach: I have two wheezy with same emacs 23, one is fine
2015-01-17T18:53:56Z Posterdati: Xach: the orther complains about  slime-timer-call(slime-attempt-connection #<process inferior-lisp> nil 8)
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2015-01-17T18:56:35Z Posterdati: Xach: leaving me in the inferior-lisp mode
2015-01-17T19:00:50Z pjb: Posterdati: any error in the *inferior-lisp* buffer?
2015-01-17T19:00:59Z Bike: oh, i got that before. had to upgrade emacs and kill all the elc.
2015-01-17T19:01:34Z Posterdati: STYLE-WARNING: redefining EMACS-INSPECT (#<SB-PCL:SYSTEM-CLASS T>) in DEFMETHOD
2015-01-17T19:01:34Z Posterdati: ;; Swank started at port: 49875.
2015-01-17T19:02:08Z Posterdati: pjb: I'm compiling emacs 24 too
2015-01-17T19:02:45Z Posterdati: but another emacs 23 is working with the same slime-2.12 installed
2015-01-17T19:02:49Z pjb: ok, so there's no error in the CL process (swank), only in emacs slime code.
2015-01-17T19:03:01Z Posterdati: seems so
2015-01-17T19:03:05Z pjb: Perhaps as Bike says, you have stale .elc?
2015-01-17T19:03:15Z Posterdati: maybe
2015-01-17T19:03:45Z Posterdati: because I recompiled all contrib directory under slime-2.12
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2015-01-17T19:05:43Z Posterdati: I killed all *.elc under contrib and it works, but I've got
2015-01-17T19:05:54Z Posterdati: cl-labels error
2015-01-17T19:06:03Z Posterdati: because contrib dir is not compiled
2015-01-17T19:10:08Z Posterdati: solved
2015-01-17T19:10:40Z Posterdati: I added to .emacs
2015-01-17T19:11:11Z Posterdati: (add-to-list 'load-path "~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.12")
2015-01-17T19:11:11Z Posterdati: (byte-recompile-directory (expand-file-name "~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-2.12/contrib") 0)
2015-01-17T19:11:25Z Posterdati: and killed all .elc under contrib
2015-01-17T19:11:58Z Posterdati: thanks people
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2015-01-17T19:19:10Z jangle: anyone here use windows and have gotten any of the gnuplot libraries to work?
2015-01-17T19:24:47Z xyh: how can I define a macro to get ::
2015-01-17T19:24:47Z xyh: (save-array :value value  :array array  :index-list '(0 0 0))
2015-01-17T19:24:47Z xyh: ==>
2015-01-17T19:24:47Z xyh: (setf (aref array 0 0 0) value)
2015-01-17T19:25:10Z Bike: sounds more like a function.
2015-01-17T19:25:44Z Bike: (defun save-array (&key value array index-list) (setf (apply #'aref array index-list) value))
2015-01-17T19:25:52Z Bike: pointlessly verbose, though
2015-01-17T19:26:54Z xyh: SETF can be used with APPLY !!!
2015-01-17T19:26:57Z xyh: cool
2015-01-17T19:26:59Z xyh: thx
2015-01-17T19:27:06Z nyef: Yes, that's a specific license.
2015-01-17T19:27:16Z Bike: only sometimes
2015-01-17T19:27:22Z Bike: clhs 5.1.2.5
2015-01-17T19:27:22Z specbot: APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm
2015-01-17T19:27:43Z nyef: Yeah, that's what I was just trying to look up.
2015-01-17T19:27:52Z pjb: xyh: as long as there's a function named (setf something).  But this is not always the case.
2015-01-17T19:27:56Z nyef: It's specifically licensed for AREF, BIT, and SBIT.
2015-01-17T19:28:08Z pjb: xyh: any setf from the standard can be implemented without a setf function.
2015-01-17T19:28:13Z nyef: Otherwise, there must be a SETF function.
2015-01-17T19:28:21Z pjb: xyh: any setf from defstruct can be implemented without a setf function.
2015-01-17T19:32:58Z nyef: And just wait until you get to the mind-bendyness which is SETF* in CLIM.
2015-01-17T19:33:09Z pjb: What did they do there?
2015-01-17T19:33:22Z nyef: Generic functions for multi-value SETF.
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2015-01-17T19:33:54Z nyef: AFAICT, it's only ever used with a single parameter, so the leading parameters must all be values.
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2015-01-17T19:36:30Z Bike: like, (setf (something ...) (values ...))?
2015-01-17T19:36:40Z nyef: Yes.
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2015-01-17T19:37:06Z nyef: Where SOMETHING is a generic function rather than a VALUES form or a use of DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER or whatever it's called.
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2015-01-17T19:37:13Z Bike: gosh.
2015-01-17T19:37:50Z nyef: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/2-7.html#_26
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2015-01-17T19:38:07Z nyef: And http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/B-4.html#_1903
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2015-01-17T19:38:17Z Bike: i think you could do that with define-setf-expander, but it'd be complicated (unlike setf*, i'm sure)
2015-01-17T19:38:51Z Bike: oh, you have defgeneric* anyway.
2015-01-17T19:39:00Z nyef: I implemented SETF* in terms of DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER anyway.
2015-01-17T19:39:21Z nyef: But it's a bit rough. I think that more MOPpery is called for, eventually.
2015-01-17T19:39:26Z Bike: right, i was reading setf* as its own macro.
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2015-01-17T19:40:42Z nyef: Digging into that a while back led me to cleaning up some CLtL1isms in SBCL.
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2015-01-17T20:00:59Z bytecurry: What is the best i18n/l10n library for common lisp? The Cliki recommend libraries recommends cl-l10n, but it looks like there have been major changes since the last time the documentation was updated, making the documentation almost useless.
2015-01-17T20:01:18Z pjb: bytecurry: be happy: it's maintained!
2015-01-17T20:01:33Z nyef: (The library, not the documentation, that is.)
2015-01-17T20:01:51Z bytecurry: How can I learn how to  use it?
2015-01-17T20:01:59Z pjb: Reading the sources?
2015-01-17T20:02:18Z nyef: Finding something that uses it and reading THOSE sources?
2015-01-17T20:02:20Z pjb: Updating the documentation?
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2015-01-17T20:17:17Z xyh: I am writing a vm (of an unknown language) in common-lisp,
2015-01-17T20:17:18Z xyh: is there a way to load a image file to a byte-buffer ??
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2015-01-17T20:19:15Z Bike: :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) on the open call, read-sequence
2015-01-17T20:19:16Z legrandin: hey guys im trying out scheme, how do i get an interpreter on OSX?
2015-01-17T20:19:22Z Bike: try #scheme
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2015-01-17T20:21:22Z bytecurry: xyh: alexandria has a read-file-into-byte-vector if you want to read the entire image into memory at once
2015-01-17T20:21:54Z shka: xyh: read-sequence
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2015-01-17T20:22:04Z shka: Bike: damn!
2015-01-17T20:22:09Z shka: good evening lispers
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2015-01-17T20:26:16Z pjb: xyh: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:binary-file-contents "file")
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2015-01-17T20:43:28Z windy_: trying to get mcclim and xming on windows setup.  I've installed xming and I'm trying to get the clim demos loaded, but I have a feeling that I have to configure clx to look for xming somehow?  does anyone know hwo to do this?  i'm having a hard time finding examples for windows
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2015-01-17T20:44:21Z pjb: the default should work. It's the DISPLAY :0.0
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2015-01-17T20:46:04Z badkins: legrandin: http://racket-lang.org/
2015-01-17T20:46:08Z windy_: pjb: how do I specify this to clx? or
2015-01-17T20:47:36Z windy_: when I run demodemo, I get http://paste.lisp.org/display/145266
2015-01-17T20:47:59Z pjb: (xlib:open-display "localhost" :display 0)
2015-01-17T20:48:07Z pjb: or perhaps: (xlib:open-display "" :display 0)
2015-01-17T20:48:27Z pjb: No, it shouldn't be empty here.
2015-01-17T20:48:59Z windy_: Connection failure to X0.0 server localhost display 0:
2015-01-17T20:49:04Z windy_: with localhost specified
2015-01-17T20:49:31Z pjb: So you may need to configure xming to listen to TCP ports for display :0.
2015-01-17T20:49:40Z windy_: hmm
2015-01-17T20:49:45Z windy_: ok i'll look into that
2015-01-17T20:50:00Z pjb: In the current security touchy environment, they tend to release X servers with disabled listening…
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2015-01-17T20:54:19Z windy_: netstat an shows a listenting socket at 127.0.0.1 6000....
2015-01-17T20:54:21Z windy_: tcp
2015-01-17T20:54:32Z pjb: That's good.
2015-01-17T20:54:32Z nyef: That's a good start.
2015-01-17T20:54:45Z pjb: Then (xlib:open-display "localhost" :display 0) should work.
2015-01-17T20:55:12Z windy_: i continue to get the aforementioned error, no reason is provided
2015-01-17T20:55:15Z pjb: Unless xming implements the newest latest X11 protocol, where some incompatibility has been put in.
2015-01-17T20:55:23Z windy_: hmm....
2015-01-17T20:55:42Z windy_: i am running 6.9.0.31, let me see, maybe that is too new
2015-01-17T20:55:50Z pjb: Perhaps try with an older version.
2015-01-17T20:57:12Z nyef: ... they broke the protocol?!?
2015-01-17T20:57:32Z pjb: nyef: at least, clx doesn't work with the latest Xorg servers.
2015-01-17T20:58:05Z nyef: ... Lovely.
2015-01-17T20:58:26Z pjb: A problem for genera too.
2015-01-17T20:58:35Z pjb: Connection failure to X11.0 server localhost display 0: No protocol specified  [Condition of type xlib:connection-failure]
2015-01-17T20:58:35Z pjb:  
2015-01-17T20:58:42Z windy_: for the record, I'm on windows 7 64 bit, running ccl64bit, running clim from quicklisp
2015-01-17T20:59:39Z pjb: on X.Org X Server 1.12.4
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2015-01-17T20:59:49Z windy_: hmm... well i'm running the public domain release of xming, with is the oldest one they immediately advertised, which seemed to have been released quite some time ago
2015-01-17T21:00:20Z pjb: That should be good then. Anyways, you don't get the no protocol specified error, so it should be something else.
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2015-01-17T21:02:44Z windy_: it all of a sudden works now
2015-01-17T21:02:49Z windy_: well the xlib connect call
2015-01-17T21:03:52Z windy_: worked once
2015-01-17T21:04:26Z windy_: huh.....
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2015-01-17T21:07:24Z windy_: ok, so it seems that sometimes the xlib:open-display call succeeds.  but clim-demo::demodemo still throws up the paste.lisp.org backtrace
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2015-01-17T21:24:15Z windy_: thanks all. still not working, but looks like I'll just stop trying to target windows for now
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2015-01-17T23:01:58Z abbe: hi
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2015-01-17T23:30:20Z abbe: I need to convert a vector of numbers to vector of unsigned bytes, wondering if doing like this is fine: (coerce #(3 3 3) '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)) )
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2015-01-17T23:32:03Z nyef: abbe: You mean you have a (vector t) that you want to coerce to a particular representation?
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2015-01-17T23:33:21Z abbe: I'm using ironclad library to generate digests, and it expector of vector of bytes, so since before this I never explicitly types in such detail like mentioned above, so I'm just curious, if it's a good practise, or I'm missing something.
2015-01-17T23:33:34Z abbe: s/expector or/expecting a/
2015-01-17T23:33:42Z abbe: *specified
2015-01-17T23:34:14Z abbe: do I make sense ?
2015-01-17T23:34:26Z nyef: Yeah, that makes a certain amount of sense.
2015-01-17T23:35:01Z nyef: The coerce looks fine, but I haven't actually tried it, and I'm currently C-focused.
2015-01-17T23:35:26Z abbe: C-focused?
2015-01-17T23:35:36Z abbe: thanks for confirming
2015-01-17T23:35:50Z nyef: I'm waist-deep in the Linux kernel, and sinking.
2015-01-17T23:36:13Z abbe: oh! quicksand
2015-01-17T23:36:28Z nyef: Yeah... quicksand! That's it.
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2015-01-17T23:54:55Z isoraqathedh_l is now known as isoraqathedh