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2015-01-14T00:56:08Z jasom: pjb: yeah, I just was reminded of that again, after seeing https://node-os.com/
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2015-01-14T00:58:57Z jasom: fe[nl]ix, White_Flame lisp without type declarations is duck-typed.  With type-declarations it is not.
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2015-01-14T01:00:36Z jasom: The distinguising feature of duck typing is that you can invoke a method and access a slot on an object without knowing its type.  This is certainly true of lisp
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2015-01-14T01:02:44Z jasom: As usual, you can write in a duck-type style, or not, in common lisp.  Just like you can write in an OO (for most definitions of OO even) style or a functional style.
2015-01-14T01:05:09Z jasom: And by "not knowing its type" I mean "not even knowing that its type inherits from a particular class"; not-duck-typing would be where you could only invoke a method on an object if it were a decendent of a known type that promises to implement that method.
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2015-01-14T01:48:34Z Xach: I've heard that more often called "message-passing style".
2015-01-14T01:48:49Z Xach: You send a message, and it's up to the object to respond to it, or not.
2015-01-14T01:49:49Z Xach: flavors was like that.
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2015-01-14T01:59:46Z White_Flame: yeah, I tend to agree with Xach on this one
2015-01-14T02:00:08Z White_Flame: the object doesn't have methods in Lisp, so invoked behavior is run by the independent generic function
2015-01-14T02:00:23Z Adlai: cross message passing with duck typing... "buck-passing style"
2015-01-14T02:00:34Z Adlai: "this functionality is not my responsibility"
2015-01-14T02:01:17Z White_Flame: Adlai: the default parent object of all instances is one of the "Politician" class
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2015-01-14T02:12:55Z pjb: (declass abstract-superclass () ()) (defmethod m ((self abstract-superclass)) 'not-duck-typing)
2015-01-14T02:13:09Z pjb: (defmethod duck ((self t)) 'duck-typing)
2015-01-14T02:14:10Z pjb: You can even write: (defmethod duck (self) 'duck-typing) :-)
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2015-01-14T02:16:56Z pjb: But even when you define an abstract superclass and abstract methods on it, you can always add a method to those generic functions for a class that is not a subclass of that abstract superclass.
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2015-01-14T02:35:35Z copec: newb question:  So there isn't a way to enter an uninterned symbol literally with the reader?  It can only be "got a hold of" from something in the evaluator since the reader looks-up/interns all the symbols?
2015-01-14T02:36:59Z copec: I just want to more accurately understand what is going on
2015-01-14T02:37:40Z Bike: #:foo is uninterned
2015-01-14T02:37:46Z Bike: clhs #:
2015-01-14T02:37:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhe.htm
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2015-01-14T02:41:24Z White_Flame: note that if you type in #:foo twice, those are two independent symbols, whose value and any other meaning do not have anything to do with each other
2015-01-14T02:41:27Z pjb: (eq '#:foo '#:foo) --> NIL   (eq 'foo 'foo) --> T
2015-01-14T02:41:39Z White_Flame: (except that string= of their symbol-name will be T)
2015-01-14T02:41:49Z copec: I noticed that
2015-01-14T02:42:12Z pjb: White_Flame: string= take string designators!
2015-01-14T02:42:13Z White_Flame: so they're typically stored in variables for use in macro generation
2015-01-14T02:42:21Z pjb: (string= '#:foo '#:foo) --> T
2015-01-14T02:43:01Z Zhivago: Isn't the first case permitted to be true due to using literals?
2015-01-14T02:44:08Z copec: So for instance macroexpand-1 is just printing something for reference, but like it isn't eval'ing the expansion through the reader
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2015-01-14T02:44:34Z White_Flame: from above, "Every time this syntax is encountered, a distinct uninterned symbol is created. "
2015-01-14T02:45:09Z Zhivago: It was already read by the time you get to macroexpansion.
2015-01-14T02:45:19Z Adlai: copec: you're probably seeing gensyms
2015-01-14T02:45:26Z Adlai: clhs gensym
2015-01-14T02:45:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gensym.htm
2015-01-14T02:45:31Z Adlai: these are often used by macros
2015-01-14T02:45:52Z White_Flame: uninterned gensyms are normal symbols, with real names, but no package
2015-01-14T02:46:12Z copec: White_Flame, then macroexpansion wouldn't work if it looped back through the reader right?
2015-01-14T02:46:16Z White_Flame: so they're printed just like any other symbol
2015-01-14T02:46:28Z White_Flame: the reader converts string characters into lists, symbols, etc
2015-01-14T02:46:33Z copec: so it doesn't, it goes from expansion to evaluation internally after the reader
2015-01-14T02:46:38Z Adlai: White_Flame | (except that string= of their symbol-name will be T) << actually, the symbols themselves are also string=
2015-01-14T02:46:38Z White_Flame: the macro system works on the latter
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2015-01-14T02:47:25Z White_Flame: copec: correct, if you printed, and then re-read the macro expansion, all linkage between the generated uninterned symbols would be lost
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2015-01-14T02:48:07Z White_Flame: but a macro expansion converts an s-expression into another s-expression (typically)
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2015-01-14T02:48:15Z pjb: White_Flame: the same is true with "strings", but within a compilation unit, literal strings can still be coalesced.
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2015-01-14T02:48:27Z akkad: Reached out to Doublas Crosher to see if he would liberate Scieneer CL
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2015-01-14T02:48:46Z Adlai: you could print the gensyms with circular read syntax
2015-01-14T02:48:49Z Adlai: clhs #=
2015-01-14T02:48:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
2015-01-14T02:49:12Z White_Flame: ah, true, though the default printer doesn't do that?
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2015-01-14T02:49:25Z copec: That doesn't work reading back in, at least with sbcl.  I tried out of curiosity
2015-01-14T02:49:59Z copec: as far as i can tell the printed object is just something distinct for debugging
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2015-01-14T02:50:55Z Adlai: clhs *print-circle*
2015-01-14T02:50:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cir.htm
2015-01-14T02:51:03Z White_Flame: copec: it's printing the symbol as normal, in package:name format
2015-01-14T02:51:12Z White_Flame: with no package, it prints as #:name
2015-01-14T02:51:43Z White_Flame: which is conveniently readable, but doesn't bother using #= to equate the various instances
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2015-01-14T02:52:56Z Adlai: http://paste.lisp.org/+341X
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2015-01-14T02:54:20Z pjb: Zhivago: "3.2.4.4 Additional Constraints on Externalizable Objects" says " With the exception of symbols and packages, any two literal objects in code being processed by the file compiler may be coalesced if and only if they are similar; if they are either both symbols or both packages, they may only be coalesced if and only if they are identical."
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2015-01-14T02:55:11Z pjb: Zhivago: therefore (#1=#:foo #2=#:foo) cannot be file compiled and loaded as (#1=#:foo #1=#:foo).
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2015-01-14T02:57:57Z White_Flame: copec: to be more clear, when gensym is called, a new symbol is created and given a name such as "G1505".  Uninterned doesn't mean it doesn't have a name and the printer has to make something up, it only means it's not in a package
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2015-01-14T02:58:04Z pendapi: akkad: umm no one uses SCL
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2015-01-14T03:00:18Z Ober: SCL?
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2015-01-14T03:01:01Z copec: I don't quite follow what they are trying to say in that paste from the spec. I assume
2015-01-14T03:01:21Z Adlai: pjb: that second form isn't valid, #1= can only appear once
2015-01-14T03:01:30Z akkad: yeah a commercial fork of cmucl
2015-01-14T03:01:46Z pjb: Adlai: correct, I meant (#1=#:foo #1#).
2015-01-14T03:01:46Z Ober: is it opensourced?
2015-01-14T03:01:57Z pendapi: cmucl is
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2015-01-14T03:02:14Z mmathers: does it run on windows?
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2015-01-14T03:02:25Z copec: What does it mean for two literal objects to be "similar"?
2015-01-14T03:02:29Z akkad: no you're thinking of Corman CL or what ever
2015-01-14T03:02:40Z pjb: copec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bdb.htm
2015-01-14T03:02:47Z pjb: copec: basically, the whole chapter 3 talks of that.
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2015-01-14T03:02:57Z copec: ty
2015-01-14T03:03:25Z copec: yup, that is well defined
2015-01-14T03:03:39Z pjb: Well no, the whole chapter, just 3.2.4 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bd.htm
2015-01-14T03:03:43Z pjb: s/no,/not/
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2015-01-14T03:06:49Z copec: CL on the face of it--for something that is introduced with such simple syntax, seems to have a ton of idiosyncrasies.
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2015-01-14T03:07:23Z pendapi: well just don't use the CLHS as the only source of truth.
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2015-01-14T03:08:24Z White_Flame: copec:  Common Lisp was a standardization bringing a bunch of different incompatible Lisp implementations together
2015-01-14T03:08:33Z pendapi: most folks use higher level packages to hide the details of many of the very ancient ways of doing things. e.g. file io
2015-01-14T03:08:43Z White_Flame: each with their own history, legacy, and idiosyncracies
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2015-01-14T03:09:59Z Zhivago: copec: The simplicity is both superficial and fundamental. The complexity is all of the random crap in-between.
2015-01-14T03:10:09Z copec: I still like it better than any other lisp dialect i've dabbled in
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2015-01-14T03:10:36Z White_Flame: again, because of what was being standardized from, a lot of maturity was brought into the spec
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2015-01-14T03:11:12Z White_Flame: and this was also after the time that Lisp machines were on the market and the language was being used commercially
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2015-01-14T03:12:52Z copec: It has enough of the purity that I learned from "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" but curbed towards actually accomplishing things
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2015-01-14T03:12:57Z copec:  /thoughts from a newb
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2015-01-14T03:14:55Z pillton: pendapi: What is wrong with WITH-OPEN-FILE for doing file I/O?
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2015-01-14T03:23:49Z copec: How long before I start dreaming in CL instead of C?
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2015-01-14T03:36:29Z Zhivago: Just take enough drugs and play a tape on repeat of a fat man bellowing "common lisp" at you and you should be set.
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2015-01-14T04:31:10Z orthecreedence: hey everyone, got a grovel/cffi question. if im loadiing a grovel file *before* loading code generated by swig, how do i tell swig to leave certain types as is?
2015-01-14T04:31:51Z orthecreedence: for instance, swig turns `size_t` into :pointer in the generated functions, but i really want it to just leave it as `size_t`
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2015-01-14T04:33:06Z orthecreedence: that way the function can use the groveled type
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2015-01-14T04:33:31Z orthecreedence: so i guess it's more of a swig question...how do i keep it from converting all unknown types into :pointer?
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2015-01-14T04:41:40Z orthecreedence: %typemap(cin) size_t "size-t";
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2015-01-14T04:41:50Z orthecreedence: found it =]
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2015-01-14T04:55:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2015-01-14T04:56:36Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2015-01-14T04:59:10Z beach: SICL LOOP now passes all the ANSI Common Lisp tests (except the ones that are in violation of the standard).
2015-01-14T05:01:07Z pillton: Great!
2015-01-14T05:01:56Z beach: Yeah, I am really tired of it. :)  But there is still work to do.  More and better error reporting for instance.
2015-01-14T05:02:35Z pillton: Oh, I was just about to ask about the error reporting.
2015-01-14T05:02:53Z beach: Not great at the moment.
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2015-01-14T05:04:38Z pillton: Well, it is a tough problem.
2015-01-14T05:04:51Z beach: Indeed.
2015-01-14T05:05:15Z pillton: I thought of it when I was reading about applicative order and normal order in lambda calculus.
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2015-01-14T05:05:47Z beach: How is it related to error reporting?
2015-01-14T05:06:06Z pillton: Well, if you record the substitutions you might get back to the original.
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2015-01-14T05:06:49Z Bike: if you used normal order you could have something like ((lambda (x) 4) (error ...)) work! how exciting
2015-01-14T05:07:28Z beach: I see.  Yes, normal order has some interesting properties. :)
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2015-01-14T05:14:19Z beach: A long time ago I was working on a programming language based on term rewriting with normal order evaluation.  Errors most often manifested themselves as a term that would grow bigger in an infinite computation.  Fun to debug.
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2015-01-14T07:38:31Z dim: I'm quite suspicious of that code I'm offered for pgloader:
2015-01-14T07:38:33Z dim: +        ;; 2208988800 is the difference between unix and universal time epoch
2015-01-14T07:38:33Z dim: +        (decode-universal-time (+ unixtime 2208988800) 0)
2015-01-14T07:38:55Z dim: is there a principled way to get at the difference here rather than put a constant literal right in the middle of the code?!
2015-01-14T07:40:07Z Shinmera: dim: http://lisptips.com/post/11649360174/the-common-lisp-and-unix-epochs
2015-01-14T07:40:59Z dim: thanks!
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2015-01-14T07:41:17Z dim: the unix epoch is still hardcoded there but I guess it's in the specs anyway
2015-01-14T07:41:38Z Shinmera: Well, CL has no concept of "unix", so
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2015-01-14T08:12:40Z pjb: dim: you could use (load-time-value (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 1970 0))
2015-01-14T08:13:24Z dim: pjb: yeah, see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/pull/147 where that's about what I'm saying, thanks ;-)
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2015-01-14T10:40:05Z Tiferet: Hi there
2015-01-14T10:41:47Z Tiferet: So long story short, I'm virtually a total beginner when it comes to programming. I can make bash scripts, sql stored procedures and modify my .emacs file - that's about it
2015-01-14T10:43:13Z H4ns: ... and because of that....?
2015-01-14T10:43:14Z Tiferet: I was wondering if any of you would consider Lisp and perhaps the book "Land of Lisp" a good place to start for someone like me?
2015-01-14T10:44:03Z H4ns: land of lisp is said to not be great - errors in the example programs, questionable pedagogical style.
2015-01-14T10:44:19Z Tiferet: ew, pedagogical style...
2015-01-14T10:44:35Z H4ns: "ansi common lisp" by graham is a good read, but it is rather opinionated and lacks in completeness.
2015-01-14T10:44:40Z H4ns: minion gentle
2015-01-14T10:44:46Z H4ns: minion: gentle
2015-01-14T10:44:46Z minion: gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2015-01-14T10:44:50Z H4ns: try that ^
2015-01-14T10:45:22Z Tiferet: H4ns: I shall, thank you. Question though - my almost total lack of experience is sufficient to understand that book?
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2015-01-14T10:46:10Z H4ns: Tiferet: that is what the "gentle" is about.
2015-01-14T10:46:28Z jdz: Practical Common Lisp?
2015-01-14T10:46:36Z Tiferet: Ah
2015-01-14T10:46:49Z H4ns: jdz: not advised for programming beginners
2015-01-14T10:46:52Z Shinmera: jdz: PCL is for people with sufficient knowledge in programming
2015-01-14T10:47:07Z theos: Ansi Common Lisp
2015-01-14T10:47:08Z Tiferet: Well, thank you very much H4ns - I'm going to order the book...
2015-01-14T10:47:30Z jdz: but it's available electronically, and i'm pretty sure it is worth at least checking out
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2015-01-14T10:47:48Z H4ns: minion: pcl
2015-01-14T10:47:48Z minion: pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2015-01-14T10:48:03Z Tiferet: jdz: All I can do is make bash scripts and do stuff with tsql
2015-01-14T10:48:06Z theos: PCL is good after you have learned CL imo
2015-01-14T10:48:36Z Tiferet: dead tree form heh
2015-01-14T10:49:23Z Tiferet: I've been agonizing over whether or not to jump on the kindle train recently
2015-01-14T10:49:49Z H4ns: Tiferet: electronic readers are no good for non-linear reading
2015-01-14T10:49:56Z Tiferet: Thank you - I'll add PCL to my wishlist
2015-01-14T10:50:07Z Tiferet: H4ns: i.e., learning
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2015-01-14T10:51:27Z Tiferet: May I ask a dumb question?
2015-01-14T10:51:40Z H4ns: you did already :D
2015-01-14T10:51:47Z Shinmera: Why not ask the question straight away instead of dumbly asking whether to ask something else.
2015-01-14T10:51:53Z Tiferet: hahhaa
2015-01-14T10:52:14Z Tiferet: Shinmera: Bad habit...
2015-01-14T10:52:28Z H4ns: ask your question already!
2015-01-14T10:52:43Z jdz: the suspense is almost unbearable
2015-01-14T10:52:45Z Tiferet: Why is Clojure popular? I don't get it.
2015-01-14T10:52:52Z H4ns: /o\
2015-01-14T10:52:53Z Tiferet: hahhaha!
2015-01-14T10:53:06Z theos: Tiferet i suggest you start with ACL then after reading it 2 pr 3 times get On Lisp
2015-01-14T10:53:11Z H4ns: Tiferet: #clojure is discussed in #clojure
2015-01-14T10:53:13Z Shinmera: Technically we can't tell you since this channel is about CL.
2015-01-14T10:53:25Z White_Flame: I think JVM integration was part of the initial momentum
2015-01-14T10:53:30Z Tiferet: H4ns: But they're biased. And I have no personal interest in learning clojure
2015-01-14T10:53:37Z Shinmera: We're biased towards CL
2015-01-14T10:53:43Z White_Flame: given that the Java library ecosystem was a desirable place to be at that time
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2015-01-14T10:53:56Z Tiferet: Shinmera: Well, at least CL isn't tied to a bloody JVM
2015-01-14T10:53:58Z H4ns: clojure is not discussed in this channel.
2015-01-14T10:54:09Z jdz: i used Clojure when i was forced to do Java stuff
2015-01-14T10:54:15Z Tiferet: H4ns: Okay. I'm sorry.
2015-01-14T10:54:38Z wasamasa: Tiferet: better marketing
2015-01-14T10:54:50Z H4ns: i was wrong, apparently :D
2015-01-14T10:54:56Z jdz: ABCL was not as good as it is now back then
2015-01-14T10:55:03Z wasamasa: Tiferet: anyways, if you wish to discuss this any further, go over to ##lisp or such
2015-01-14T10:55:10Z Tiferet: wasamasa: haha =)
2015-01-14T10:55:23Z Tiferet: wasamasa: Thanks.
2015-01-14T10:55:30Z Shinmera: jdz: I don't know if that would've helped given PG doesn't like CL anyway.
2015-01-14T10:55:37Z wasamasa: which is a channel for general lisp discussion
2015-01-14T10:55:55Z Tiferet: Finally, would picking up SICP after the gentle introduction be optimal?
2015-01-14T10:56:06Z wasamasa: nope
2015-01-14T10:56:18Z theos: he is not reading what i am typing is he?
2015-01-14T10:56:28Z wasamasa: yup
2015-01-14T10:56:37Z jdz: Tiferet: maybe not optimal, but SICP is worth studying anyway
2015-01-14T10:56:57Z Tiferet: theos: I'm so sorry - I'm using Emacs and i scrolled my buffer accidentally
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2015-01-14T10:57:09Z H4ns: theos: you gave questionable advise anyway.  i mean, acl, then on lisp?  who's going to read the code that he's writing afterwards?  :D
2015-01-14T10:57:27Z Tiferet points at H4ns 
2015-01-14T10:57:34Z Tiferet: thanks in advance =D
2015-01-14T10:58:18Z theos: H4ns i was going to suggest that he read let over lambda next :D
2015-01-14T10:58:25Z jdz: Tiferet: but SICP uses Scheme, and for a beginner that would only make them confused
2015-01-14T10:58:28Z wasamasa: theos: lol
2015-01-14T10:58:31Z H4ns: theos: awesome.
2015-01-14T10:59:00Z Tiferet: jdz: I was under the impression that Scheme and CL were pretty compatible...
2015-01-14T10:59:11Z H4ns: Tiferet: that is a completely wrong impression.
2015-01-14T10:59:11Z jdz: Tiferet: you see, you're already confused
2015-01-14T10:59:26Z H4ns: Tiferet: they are only similar if you don't try to use either of them :)
2015-01-14T10:59:30Z Tiferet: jdz: I don't deny this...
2015-01-14T10:59:51Z Tiferet: H4ns: ha! admittedly, I have very superficial knowledge on the topic
2015-01-14T10:59:59Z Tiferet: my proficiency is emacs lisp, after all
2015-01-14T11:00:19Z wasamasa: same here
2015-01-14T11:00:33Z Tiferet: well, "proficient" at making global setkey and setq
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2015-01-14T11:00:34Z Tiferet: lol
2015-01-14T11:00:38Z wasamasa: why do I even hang out in here
2015-01-14T11:01:03Z Tiferet: wasamasa: warm and cozy?
2015-01-14T11:01:34Z jdz: wasamasa: gotta have your daily dose of toxicity
2015-01-14T11:01:34Z wasamasa: Tiferet: ah, to tell clueless people to walk over to ##lisp
2015-01-14T11:01:43Z wasamasa: jdz: hmm
2015-01-14T11:02:22Z Tiferet: Well, I have installed CL and I've used it to compile ratpoison...
2015-01-14T11:02:32Z Tiferet: But that's about all the exposure I've had
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2015-01-14T11:04:00Z mrkkrp: Tiferet: what implementation?
2015-01-14T11:04:20Z Tiferet: mrkkrp: iron-something
2015-01-14T11:04:28Z H4ns: steel
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2015-01-14T11:07:16Z Tiferet: H4ns: yes!
2015-01-14T11:07:34Z Tiferet: H4ns: I just looked it up - steel bank common lisp
2015-01-14T11:07:45Z Tiferet: and it was the stumpwm wm, not ratpoison
2015-01-14T11:08:03Z Tiferet: I think the sleep deprivation has finally got the best of me. i'm blabbering
2015-01-14T11:08:09Z Tiferet: thanks for all your help guys
2015-01-14T11:08:28Z Tiferet: goodnight
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2015-01-14T12:14:54Z playnu_com_ar_: the #. operator evaluates the code at compile time, right? And it is is also a reader macro, but to what expands? how can i see to what is expanded? (:
2015-01-14T12:15:10Z H4ns: it evaluates code at read time, not compile time.
2015-01-14T12:15:20Z H4ns: that is why you can't see an expansion.
2015-01-14T12:15:56Z playnu_com_ar_: ahaaa, (: thanks
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2015-01-14T12:52:19Z Posterdati: hi
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2015-01-14T12:52:47Z Posterdati: is it possible to overwrite one package in the quicklisp repository?
2015-01-14T12:53:05Z Grue`: put it into quicklisp/local-projects
2015-01-14T12:54:15Z Posterdati: ?
2015-01-14T12:54:51Z Posterdati: for example I need to download again a package and rewrite the old
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2015-01-14T12:55:49Z Hache: as Grue said
2015-01-14T12:56:07Z Grue`: in ~/quicklisp there's a directory local-projects. asd systems put in there have higher priority over standard quicklisp packages
2015-01-14T12:56:09Z Hache: clone the package in ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2015-01-14T12:56:51Z Posterdati: (ql:quickload :package-name) will overwrite it?
2015-01-14T12:57:17Z Hache: the one in local-projects will be loaded
2015-01-14T12:57:17Z Xach: Posterdati: no. moving it out of local-projects will.
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2015-01-14T12:59:21Z Posterdati: ok thanks
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2015-01-14T14:37:46Z nowhere_man_: I'm encountering a strange swank connection error:
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2015-01-14T14:38:07Z nowhere_man_: I've got an SBCL with swank running in a Docker container
2015-01-14T14:38:20Z nowhere_man_: I (swank:create-server), it opens 4005
2015-01-14T14:38:48Z nowhere_man_: if I connect on it, the connection is reset by peer (telnet or slime-connect)
2015-01-14T14:39:42Z eudoxia: i think you need to start the server with a specific interface
2015-01-14T14:41:38Z eudoxia: dim would know
2015-01-14T14:42:08Z dim: hi
2015-01-14T14:42:56Z dim: (swank:create-server :port swank-port :style :spawn :dont-close t)
2015-01-14T14:43:14Z dim: that's the one which worked for me when embedded a swank server in my binary images
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2015-01-14T14:45:22Z nowhere_man_: :spawn is already the default
2015-01-14T14:45:32Z nowhere_man_: but that didn't solve my problem
2015-01-14T14:45:35Z nowhere_man_: damnit
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2015-01-14T14:49:19Z jackdaniel: hmm, why (reduce #'and '(T T T)) claims, that and is undefined function, while (functionp #'and) => T ?
2015-01-14T14:49:26Z eudoxia: try setting swank::*loopback-interface* to "0.0.0.0"
2015-01-14T14:49:29Z eudoxia: nowhere_man_: ^
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2015-01-14T14:50:18Z Xach: jackdaniel: short answer is because it is permissible to act that way
2015-01-14T14:50:28Z Xach: jackdaniel: longer answer is there are many better ways to get the same resultsd
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2015-01-14T14:51:19Z Xach: jackdaniel: http://lisptips.com/post/11608641449/how-do-i-apply-and has a bit about it. (notany #'null list) or (every #'identity list) for example.
2015-01-14T14:52:06Z dlowe: jackdaniel: AND is a macro. It's of type FUNCTION, but you can't apply or funcall it, so REDUCE isn't going to work with it.
2015-01-14T14:52:44Z jackdaniel: thanks both :)
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2015-01-14T14:53:30Z mrkkrp: jackdaniel: all macros are functions. you can do (every #'identity '(t t t)) => t
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2015-01-14T14:53:43Z mrkkrp: (every #'identity '(t t nil)) => nil
2015-01-14T14:54:38Z nowhere_man_: eudoxia: I'm getting somewhere, thx
2015-01-14T14:55:06Z jackdaniel: i was mostly curious why it doesn't work despite functionp result
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2015-01-14T14:57:02Z mrkkrp: in theory it's possible to funcall a macro, and it happnes during macroexpansion, but if macros were accessible from 'normal' code, it would be confusing, I think
2015-01-14T14:57:28Z mrkkrp: *accessible as functions, so you can funcall them
2015-01-14T14:57:47Z mrkkrp: it's matter of design, I guess
2015-01-14T14:59:30Z Xach: apply and funcall use a function and values to produce values. macroexpansion uses a macro and source code to produce source code.
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2015-01-14T15:00:47Z dim: from a VM (vagrant) I'm doing (let ((swank::*loopback-interface* "0.0.0.0")) (swank:create-server :port 4205 :style :spawn :dont-close t)), nowhere_man_
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2015-01-14T15:02:05Z dlowe: mrkkrp: they're called fexprs. They're hard to compile, so Common Lisp doesn't support them.
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2015-01-14T15:02:52Z dlowe: Easy to support in an interpreter, though.
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2015-01-14T15:05:18Z nowhere_man_: dim: yes, with the change to *loopback-interface*, it worked
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2015-01-14T15:34:55Z dtw: My ~/quicklisp directory is getting big. Is there a command for "garbage-collecting" the directory? (There are old versions of some libraries.)
2015-01-14T15:35:17Z H4ns: i use 'rm -r' for that
2015-01-14T15:35:39Z dtw: Same here but...
2015-01-14T15:36:34Z dlowe: dtw: there could be :D The power was in you the whole time!
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2015-01-14T15:45:25Z Xach: dtw: (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))
2015-01-14T15:45:31Z Xach: dtw: make sure you have the latest client!
2015-01-14T15:45:37Z Xach: (ql:update-client) and a restart will get it
2015-01-14T15:46:13Z Xach: It will soon auto-clean after updates.
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2015-01-14T15:47:43Z dtw: Thanks.
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2015-01-14T15:49:28Z dlowe: neat
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2015-01-14T15:58:35Z mrkkrp: Xach, is there something to remove some package and unnecessary dependencies, like pacman -Rs ?
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2015-01-14T15:59:26Z Xach: mrkkrp: no.
2015-01-14T15:59:35Z Xach: the info is there to make something like that, but it is not written.
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2015-01-14T16:46:23Z drmeister: Xach - or anyone: I create the file ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf  but ASDF seems to ignore it - is there a way to dump the paths that ASDF searches for systems?
2015-01-14T16:46:44Z Xach: I found it so hard to configure the registry that I avoid it.
2015-01-14T16:47:16Z Xach: It is probably not that hard but there are enough rules, and I used them so infrequently, that I had to always look them up, and got tired of doing that.
2015-01-14T16:47:40Z drmeister: What do you use?
2015-01-14T16:47:43Z Xach: i use asdf:*central-registry* and ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 98.6% of the time.
2015-01-14T16:49:13Z Grue`: drmeister: I think it's ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/ and you can create an arbitrary *.conf file in it
2015-01-14T16:49:22Z Xach: Yes, that sounds right.
2015-01-14T16:49:32Z Xach: But also possibly not right!
2015-01-14T16:49:38Z Grue`: well, it works for me
2015-01-14T16:49:38Z oGMo: that sounds like overkill
2015-01-14T16:49:39Z drmeister: I was doing that first - also a bust - I'll try again (sigh)
2015-01-14T16:49:54Z Grue`: I have asdf.lisp in there with a (:tree ) declaration
2015-01-14T16:49:59Z drmeister: What do you put in those files?  Just   (:tree WHATEVER)??
2015-01-14T16:50:04Z Grue`: I mean asdf.conf
2015-01-14T16:50:19Z Grue`: yes, just (:tree "path")
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2015-01-14T16:51:11Z drmeister: No (:source-registry ...)   No (:inherit-configuration) etc?
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2015-01-14T16:51:33Z drmeister: Trying
2015-01-14T16:51:36Z Grue`: well, I guess you can use those too if you need to, for some reason
2015-01-14T16:52:06Z drmeister: MISSING-COMPONENT
2015-01-14T16:52:57Z drmeister grrrr
2015-01-14T16:53:01Z jasom: White_Flame: yes, duck typing is a term invented in the 21st century to describe what smalltalk had been doing for 20 years.
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2015-01-14T16:54:01Z drmeister: Ok, I have a directory ~/quicklisp/local-projects that contains alexandria and a symlink to alexandria.asd called alexandria.asd
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2015-01-14T16:54:59Z Xach: drmeister: ok!
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2015-01-14T16:55:11Z drmeister: In ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/50-local-projects.conf ....
2015-01-14T16:55:30Z drmeister: I have the single line (:tree "/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects")
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2015-01-14T16:55:48Z Xach: drmeister: do you support "**/*.asd" syntax in DIRECTORY?
2015-01-14T16:56:01Z Xach: or :wild-inferiors?
2015-01-14T16:56:05Z drmeister: I start up clasp and (require :asdf) and (asdf:load-system "alexandria") --> MISSING-COMPONENT
2015-01-14T16:56:13Z drmeister: Xach: I think so - how would I test?
2015-01-14T16:56:28Z Xach: drmeister: (directory "~/quicklisp/local-projects/**/*.asd") returns something.
2015-01-14T16:57:24Z drmeister: --> (#P"/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects/alexandria/alexandria.asd" #P"/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects/alexandria/alexandria.asd" #P"/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects/alexandria/alexandria-tests.asd")
2015-01-14T16:58:05Z Xach: drmeister: do you have quicklisp loaded, or just asdf?
2015-01-14T16:58:19Z drmeister: When I add "/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects" to the environment variable CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY everything works and it finds the system file.
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2015-01-14T16:58:40Z drmeister: This may be a bug in my asdf implementation.   I just want to make sure that I'm doing everything else correct.
2015-01-14T16:58:53Z drmeister: Xach: Right now I'm just trying to debug ASDF
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2015-01-14T16:59:14Z Xach: ok. i can't help much with that.
2015-01-14T17:00:40Z drmeister: That's ok, thanks for your help.
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2015-01-14T17:03:45Z drmeister: Ok, it seems to be a bug in clasp - my configuration above (after I unset CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY) works with SBCL
2015-01-14T17:03:49Z drmeister: I'll have to dig
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2015-01-14T17:12:24Z didi: Some questions about SLIME: 1. Can any user of a system connect to a open swank connection? 2. Is it possible to use unix domain sockets instead of IPv4 ones?
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2015-01-14T17:16:59Z jasom: Any suggestions for building a simple CRUD webapp in lisp?
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2015-01-14T17:20:27Z Xach: didi: 1. by default, yes. there is a cookie file mechanism to help inhibit arbitrary connections.
2015-01-14T17:20:53Z Xach: didi: if you have a file named ~/.slime-secret, its first line will be used to authenticate the connection. you could make it secret with permissions.
2015-01-14T17:21:07Z Xach: didi: i don't know about #2, sorry.
2015-01-14T17:21:08Z didi: Xach: Cool. I saw a 2005 message about it but I didn't find any mention in the manual.
2015-01-14T17:21:26Z Grue`: it's too secret for manual ;)
2015-01-14T17:21:35Z Xach: I don't know of anyone who has used it or discussed it. I wonder if actually works.
2015-01-14T17:21:38Z didi: It can't handle the secret.
2015-01-14T17:21:46Z Xach: I have not personally tried it. I just noticed it when reading the sources.
2015-01-14T17:22:07Z didi: Xach: Hum. So one has to manually create the file?
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2015-01-14T17:24:37Z Xach: didi: yes.
2015-01-14T17:26:10Z didi: Xach: I see. Thank you. I will try playing with it.
2015-01-14T17:28:08Z didi: According to the 2005 message, it should contain a sexp. Let me see if I can find the message again.
2015-01-14T17:30:21Z didi: Found it. Not exactly what I said tho.
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2015-01-14T17:30:54Z didi: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/f81850d0
2015-01-14T17:31:26Z Hache: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/core/server.clj#L21
2015-01-14T17:31:47Z didi: Hache: Cool.
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2015-01-14T17:40:23Z didi: Well... my tests indicates that it is not working.
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2015-01-14T17:47:13Z didi: oic. Swank doesn't cache the cookie but read it at every connection.
2015-01-14T17:48:23Z didi: So changing the cookie file after starting the swank server isn't a valid test.
2015-01-14T17:49:07Z dim: anyone tried to embed a --self-upgrade option in a binary image they generate, wherein you would just do (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :pgloader :verbose nil)?
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2015-01-14T17:49:16Z dim: well :pgloader or :your-system of course
2015-01-14T17:49:52Z dim: of course it can't be that simple, that only seem to work when the asdf systems are to be found at the same place as on the build machine where the binary image comes from
2015-01-14T17:50:16Z dim: tips to make it work on other situations would be welcome... maybe I need some Quicklisp magic embedded in there
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2015-01-14T17:51:03Z Xach: self-upgrade?
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2015-01-14T17:52:54Z didi: Yay. It works. Nice.
2015-01-14T17:53:07Z didi: "  Incoming connection doesn't know the password."
2015-01-14T17:53:21Z Xach: didi/dim: can you please change your nicknames to be further apart? i am getting very confused.
2015-01-14T17:53:30Z Xach will not accept remarks about Xah at this time
2015-01-14T17:53:45Z didi: Xach: So all di* look alike to you??
2015-01-14T17:54:01Z dim: ahah
2015-01-14T17:54:18Z dim: I've been using my nickname for > 15 years on freenode, I'm not keen on changing it sorry
2015-01-14T17:55:06Z dim: actually that self-upgrade thing shouldn't cause a reload of asdf dependencies at all, the code is already in the image... how do I convince asdf about that?
2015-01-14T17:56:05Z Shinmera: Xach: No nick colouring on your client?
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2015-01-14T17:58:14Z didi: So ideally, this cookie file should be automatically generated every time a swank server is started, methinks.
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2015-01-14T18:07:44Z dim: Function: register-preloaded-system name &rest keys
2015-01-14T18:07:47Z dim: that looks like what I need here
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2015-01-14T18:12:44Z didi: It looks like the "local domain socket" topic appeared a few times in the slime mailing list. As early as 2003 by my queries.
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2015-01-14T18:52:44Z dim: mmm, looks like register-preloaded-system isn't cutting it somehow
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2015-01-14T19:28:07Z dim: asdf::*immutable-systems* is what I need apparently, but seems 3.1.x only
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2015-01-14T19:31:10Z didi: dim: ASDF has been complaining to me lately, but I don't really understand what it wants from me.
2015-01-14T19:32:33Z dim: well yeah, https://github.com/fare/asdf/commit/7ce11cfd1ef384bd3faa22ef3366249c3e2ed747
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2015-01-14T19:45:02Z playnu_com_ar_: Hi. Exist any format, but that generates an string?
2015-01-14T19:45:22Z didi: playnu_com_ar_: (format nil ...)
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2015-01-14T19:45:41Z playnu_com_ar_: didi: thanks
2015-01-14T19:45:44Z didi: playnu_com_ar_: np
2015-01-14T19:45:46Z dim: even :force-not isn't playing by the books it seems :(
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2015-01-14T20:45:17Z didi: How does one usually handle a lambda with &rest and &key?
2015-01-14T20:45:39Z Bicyclidine: "handle"?
2015-01-14T20:45:43Z didi: I know &rest will contain &key too. I am wondering how one parses it.
2015-01-14T20:45:47Z didi: Bicyclidine: ^
2015-01-14T20:46:14Z Bicyclidine: Parsing the lambda list? Arguments to the function? Which/what?
2015-01-14T20:46:52Z didi: Bicyclidine: Parse &rest inside the function body. Now that I think about it, &rest will always contain all &key, so it is easy.
2015-01-14T20:47:18Z didi: Never mind.
2015-01-14T20:47:43Z didi: Or no?
2015-01-14T20:47:47Z didi: Hum. Let me test it.
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2015-01-14T20:51:39Z didi: Oh. With https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2304f123 I _have_ to call `foo' with the key `:bar'.
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2015-01-14T20:52:54Z didi: Well, sorta. I can call `foo' with no arguments. Maybe I should avoid using &key and &rest together.
2015-01-14T20:53:37Z Bicyclidine: it's like (lambda (&rest baz) (destructuring-bind (&key bar) baz ...)), a bit.
2015-01-14T20:53:45Z _death: &allow-other-keys
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2015-01-14T20:54:11Z Bicyclidine: if you have &key you do have to have the rest be a plist, so the length is a multiple of two.
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2015-01-14T20:55:17Z _death: if you have a more complicated lambda list (why?) you can always just parse the rest parameter yourself
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2015-01-14T21:02:34Z didi: I was thinking of a function with switches (&keys) and a variable number of arguments (&rest). I can instead expect a list parameter instead of &rest, of course.
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2015-01-14T21:07:11Z didi: My other idea is use &optional and &rest. It is a little cumbersome to use tho.
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2015-01-14T21:38:16Z didi: Oh well, &optional and &rest seems to be the way.
2015-01-14T21:39:35Z jasom: is there a name for the stream to print to to get it to appear as output in the slime repl?
2015-01-14T21:40:12Z didi: jasom: t
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2015-01-14T21:41:03Z Xach: jasom: i'm guessing the simple answer of *standard-output* isn't what you're looking for. you mean some swank variable that has the same value?
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2015-01-14T22:07:46Z axion: is there a way to detect if either '(unsigned-byte 8) or '(unsigned-byte 16) was passed as :element-type to make-array afterwards?
2015-01-14T22:09:47Z White_Flame: test the array's type
2015-01-14T22:10:44Z Bicyclidine: axion: array-element-type
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2015-01-14T22:13:39Z White_Flame: also, test out if/how array upgrading affects you: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/sec_15-1-2-1.html
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2015-01-14T22:14:14Z White_Flame: though with byte arrays like that, I'd hope most modern implementations don't play games with the element type
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2015-01-14T22:15:42Z White_Flame: huh, sbcl will do 7-bit array elements natively, as well as 8
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2015-01-14T22:15:51Z Bicyclidine: think that's a tag thing.
2015-01-14T22:16:06Z White_Flame: well, it will upgrade 5 or 6 bits to 7
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2015-01-14T23:15:00Z jasom: Xach: yeah, something else has bound *standard-output*
2015-01-14T23:15:30Z Bicyclidine: terminal-io won't be swank but it might still be bound to it
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2015-01-14T23:18:56Z Bicyclidine: huh, rebinding terminal-io isn't standard defined.
2015-01-14T23:20:38Z _death: cursory look at swank-repl suggests (swank::connection.user-output swank::*emacs-connection*)
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2015-01-14T23:35:38Z Posterdati: hi
2015-01-14T23:36:25Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with ecl and slime, the repl is freezed as emacs too after M-x slime
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