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2015-01-13T01:12:32Z jasom: and this is why requiring all packages to exist in a global namespace sucsk
2015-01-13T01:13:02Z jasom: well reason 6 or 7 why it sucks anyways
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2015-01-13T02:42:18Z taspat: hi, i want to try zeromq library but after doing (ql:quickload "zeromq") then (in-package :zeromq) I cannot run the basic expression like (make-instance 'zmq:msg :data #(1 2 3))
2015-01-13T02:42:40Z taspat: i get an error Invalid initialization argument: :DATA
2015-01-13T02:42:40Z taspat:  
2015-01-13T02:43:11Z taspat: doesnt the package work properly or am i doing something wrong setting the environment?
2015-01-13T02:43:15Z akkad: is LW under active development? Or is SBCL to blame for it being years old?
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2015-01-13T02:44:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2015-01-13T02:45:14Z akkad: morning beaches
2015-01-13T02:45:16Z gabc: Good morning indeed
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2015-01-13T02:47:51Z |3b|: taspat: where did you see something saying that should work? the zmq lib i can find looks like it wants make-msg rather than make-instance
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2015-01-13T02:49:59Z taspat: |3b| i just followed this
2015-01-13T02:50:01Z taspat: http://zeromq.org/bindings:cl
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2015-01-13T02:50:58Z taspat: |3b| make-msg throws odd number of args error
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2015-01-13T02:51:11Z taspat: nothing works..:(
2015-01-13T02:51:21Z |3b|: (zmq:make-msg :data #(1 2 3)) ?
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2015-01-13T02:52:15Z |3b|: and that looks like the code i was looking at, not sure why that says to use make-instance
2015-01-13T02:52:40Z taspat: |3b|: yes it worked
2015-01-13T02:52:56Z taspat: so where do I look for correct wiki?
2015-01-13T02:52:56Z |3b|: ah, i guess it changed in may 2013 and nobody updates that page :/
2015-01-13T02:53:00Z taspat: ty btw
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2015-01-13T02:54:49Z |3b|: no idea :/
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2015-01-13T02:57:14Z |3b|: could try looking at the tests at https://github.com/freiksenet/cl-zmq/blob/master/tests/main.lisp
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2015-01-13T03:40:08Z akkad: is there anything more efficient at storing serialized records than cl-store?
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2015-01-13T03:43:07Z akkad: the real problem with lisp is I've not replaced enough of my tools with equivalents in lisp
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2015-01-13T03:56:50Z beach: Yay!  SICL LOOP passes all the tests for the SUM clause.
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2015-01-13T04:03:07Z beach: Yay!  SICL LOOP passes all the tests for the REPEAT clause (except the one that violates the standard).
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2015-01-13T04:08:18Z beach: Yay!  SICL LOOP passes all the tests for the WHILE and UNTIL clauses.
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2015-01-13T04:40:12Z beach: As far as I can tell, a REPEAT clause can not precede FOR/AS clause in LOOP.
2015-01-13T04:41:03Z beach: ... because REPEAT is a TERMINATION-TEST which is a main clause, whereas FOR/AS is a variable clause, and main clauses must follow all variable clauses.
2015-01-13T04:41:10Z |3b|: sounds right
2015-01-13T04:41:34Z beach: Thanks for confirming.
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2015-01-13T04:42:12Z beach: However, since SBCL allows it, I am afraid I have been writing some LOOP forms that violate this constraint.
2015-01-13T04:42:57Z |3b|: yeah, that is the sort of thing clisp might object to where MIT LOOP doesn't
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2015-01-13T04:43:38Z beach: Right.  And that is the reason why Xach wants a more restrictive LOOP macro that he can load into SBCL.
2015-01-13T04:43:44Z beach: ... which he can soon have.
2015-01-13T04:43:46Z beach: :)
2015-01-13T04:43:53Z |3b|: though possibly it doesn't in that specific case
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2015-01-13T04:44:20Z beach: Right.  I don't know that for a fact.
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2015-01-13T04:48:49Z loke: Wow. I don't know how many times i have placed a REPEAT before a FOR in loops...
2015-01-13T04:48:55Z loke: Let me search my current project:
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2015-01-13T04:49:57Z loke: There's one...
2015-01-13T04:49:57Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/lofn/commit/18dec05d4241f7c5a81575af936317db8c11b508
2015-01-13T04:50:27Z beach: Yeah, I think I have some too.
2015-01-13T04:50:37Z loke: Found two more in a different project
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2015-01-13T04:53:05Z loke: This one is correct, yes?
2015-01-13T04:53:06Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-gss/blob/master/src/conditions.lisp#L42
2015-01-13T04:53:19Z loke: (loop repeat ... collect ... until ...)
2015-01-13T04:53:24Z beach: Yes.
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2015-01-13T05:04:44Z pjb: jasom: let package global naming be a lesson, and make all your names hierarchical!
2015-01-13T05:06:17Z pjb: Oops! I've always written repeat first.
2015-01-13T05:08:08Z beach: Miraculously, I have only a single occurrence of REPEAT before FOR in all of SICL.
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2015-01-13T06:02:59Z beach: People who need an "early" REPEAT N clause can always do FOR NIL BELOW N.
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2015-01-13T06:03:24Z beach: I should have told you that before you started reorganizing your clauses.
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2015-01-13T06:03:33Z |3b|: does anyone 'need' one?
2015-01-13T06:04:13Z beach: I mean, suppose you wrote a lot of REPEAT before FOR, and your semantics depend on it, then, instead of reordering your clauses, you can just replace the REPEAT by what I suggested.
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2015-01-13T06:05:00Z |3b|: yeah, i guess it does update different # of times
2015-01-13T06:05:05Z |3b| wasn't sure about that
2015-01-13T06:05:36Z beach: I haven't thought it through, but it seems likely that it could influence the result.
2015-01-13T06:05:55Z |3b| tried it instead of thinking, and seems to
2015-01-13T06:06:10Z beach: Good plan.  Thinking is hard. :)
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2015-01-13T06:25:28Z PuercoPop: If I want to run some code every time a slot value (of any slot except a blessed one) has changed, what is the most sensible way to achieve it? Use Cells?
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2015-01-13T06:33:25Z beach: Yay! SICL LOOP passes all the tests for ALWAYS, NEVER, and THEREIS.
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2015-01-13T06:54:21Z samebchase: beach: congratulations!
2015-01-13T06:59:27Z slyrus: nice
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2015-01-13T07:01:02Z slyrus: and, on another note, now that it's cool to deliver applications as god-knows-how-many-megabyte "containers", will folks stop bitching about the lack of a tree shaker in SBCL?
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2015-01-13T07:06:24Z beach: samebchase: Thanks.
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2015-01-13T07:07:14Z beach: I guess the REPEAT clause order issue is something that should be clarified in Common Lisp version 2, along with the FOR NIL BELOW N trick.
2015-01-13T07:08:41Z beach: In case anyone is wondering, I am using #lisp as a quick notebook for Common Lisp version 2 issues, so that I can just grep for "Common Lisp version 2" in the logs later when I start working on it.  Feel free to do likewise if you think of an issue to process.
2015-01-13T07:10:07Z beach: slyrus: I don't know the answer to your question, but I do think it would be a good idea to deliver the Common Lisp system largely as a shared library.  Then the issue would disappear as well, and the implementation could still use the compiler at runtime in CLOS.
2015-01-13T07:10:47Z slyrus: beach: yes, I've often wondered about trying to do something like that
2015-01-13T07:10:57Z beach: I hear people saying that it would be hard to do so, but I seriously can't see why, other than the fact that SBCL currently is not structured to do that.
2015-01-13T07:12:31Z Zhivago: Apart from bootstrapping the system classes, and the need to update the magic cl package, it shouldn't be too hard.
2015-01-13T07:12:33Z beach: slyrus: And if we could come up with a shared library that wouldn't break whenever there is some minor change in the system, then we might even be able to make it installable by using the OS package manager.
2015-01-13T07:12:53Z slyrus: again, that would be nice
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2015-01-13T07:14:15Z beach: I am thinking that a simple thing would be to put all the system CODE in that shared library as read-only space, and perhaps the mutable data as COW.
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2015-01-13T07:15:14Z beach: Then applications can modify the system whatever way they see fit.
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2015-01-13T07:15:50Z beach: slyrus: Are you saying you have considered doing this yourself?
2015-01-13T07:16:30Z slyrus: more that I've considered wanting this, rather than actually trying to figure out how to do it :)
2015-01-13T07:16:46Z beach: Yeah, that's a lot easier. :)
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2015-01-13T07:23:34Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2015-01-13T08:59:36Z pjb: ccl cannot deal with (loop for nil below 3), but otherwise that would indeed prevent the last evaluation of the then clauses.
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2015-01-13T09:00:25Z pjb: or all evaluations when below 0.
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2015-01-13T12:23:40Z Xach: common-lisp.net seems to be down, at least for http activity.
2015-01-13T12:24:05Z Xach: hmm, not down, but very, very slow for me
2015-01-13T12:24:14Z Xach: Is it very slow for anyone else?
2015-01-13T12:24:39Z H4ns: yes, very slow for me as well
2015-01-13T12:26:18Z Xach: ok. i have emailed ehu and prxq
2015-01-13T12:26:48Z Shinmera: 30 seconds to resolve + 1m to load
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2015-01-13T12:36:15Z dim: it's common advice nowadays to use a local caching recursive DNS server on your workstations/laptops, unbound is an awesome tool to implement that
2015-01-13T12:36:44Z Xach: resolution is not the sole issue
2015-01-13T12:37:17Z dim: in particular unbound makes it really easy to only send some DNS queries down to your VPN's DNS server for only its area of authority (e.g. *.vpn) and bypass it for your normal activity
2015-01-13T12:37:33Z H4ns: dim: how does that fix the broken common-lisp.net?
2015-01-13T12:37:34Z dim: Xach: gatcha, I'm just surprised that it would be a problem apart from the first DNS query really
2015-01-13T12:37:38Z dim: H4ns: it doesn't
2015-01-13T12:37:50Z dim: I'm feeling chatty, that is all ;-)
2015-01-13T12:39:57Z xyh: is there a function like "shell-command" in common-lisp (as it is in emacs-lisp) ?
2015-01-13T12:40:18Z Xach: xyh: not a standard one. uiop:run-program is an add-on that does it.
2015-01-13T12:40:40Z dim: +1 for uiop:run-program it's the easiest to use
2015-01-13T12:40:47Z dim: (because mostly it's already there)
2015-01-13T12:41:05Z xyh: Xach: oh! thx, I found that you are the auther of quicklisp :)
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2015-01-13T12:41:17Z Xach: my secret is out
2015-01-13T12:42:44Z Xach is sad his plans to test a fresh release build is thwarted by clnet's downtime
2015-01-13T12:44:53Z eudoxia: Xach, quick question, a while ago people were asking for up-to-date download stats for QL projects, and you said your main problem was parsing S3 access logs. is that still the main bottleneck to getting there?
2015-01-13T12:45:21Z Xach: eudoxia: it was more making time for doing it. my time is now focused on that (and a few other related things) so i am making progress
2015-01-13T12:45:41Z eudoxia: ok then
2015-01-13T12:46:10Z Xach is working on gathering a number of activity metrics: download stats, update/commit frequency, github things like watchers/stars/issues, etc
2015-01-13T12:47:37Z dim: Xach: if you want to, send me some data that you have or/and a read-only access to them and I will write you a pgloader "module" that will load all of that into a PostgreSQL database
2015-01-13T12:47:47Z dim: then you're up to write the front-end of course
2015-01-13T12:48:01Z dim: I could provide you with the SQL you need and we could plug-in pgcharts, it would be fun
2015-01-13T12:48:19Z Xach: dim: cool, hang on
2015-01-13T12:48:25Z dim: and I'd be glad to be able to say that I did participate, even if only a little, to the Quicklisp project ;-)
2015-01-13T12:49:25Z Xach: it's a tab-separated file
2015-01-13T12:51:29Z Xach: dim: http://xach.com/tmp/cloudfront-log.txt
2015-01-13T12:51:36Z Xach: they are normally gzipped
2015-01-13T12:51:48Z Xach: they include the # header comments
2015-01-13T12:51:49Z dim: then all you need is already in pgloader I guess
2015-01-13T12:52:02Z dim: pgloader will not read the header all by itself yet
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2015-01-13T12:54:25Z dim: preparing you a .load file for pgloader
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2015-01-13T12:59:36Z Xach: neat, that log entry is from the australian edge cache
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2015-01-13T12:59:52Z ehu: Xach: thanks for the heads up; the system seems to have come back/restored itself.
2015-01-13T13:00:19Z Xach: phew
2015-01-13T13:00:39Z dim: seems to work
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2015-01-13T13:00:51Z dim: do you have an URL with a gzipped source file?
2015-01-13T13:00:57Z Xach: ehu: there was some kind of network anomoly 8 hours ago
2015-01-13T13:00:59Z ehu: (just got back to my PC when I received the monitoring software's "OK")
2015-01-13T13:01:01Z dim: it should be all automated in pgloader
2015-01-13T13:01:04Z Xach: anomaly, rather
2015-01-13T13:01:22Z Xach: dim: http://xach.com/tmp/cloudfront-log.txt.gz
2015-01-13T13:03:01Z dim: trying it all in CL, no load file
2015-01-13T13:03:08Z dim: because it's supposed to work that way now ;-)
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2015-01-13T13:04:27Z dim: ok all works but .load file needed
2015-01-13T13:05:50Z dim: Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145207
2015-01-13T13:06:20Z dim: if you want to import a source file again, add the truncate option in the WITH clause of the load file
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2015-01-13T13:07:13Z dim: if you don't have a recent enough PostgreSQL you might have trouble with the "create table if not exists" command, then I would advice to remove the whole BEFORE LOAD section and just create it manually once beforehand
2015-01-13T13:07:32Z dim: the all-in-lisp API would be like: (pgloader:load-data :from (pgloader:parse-source-string-for-type :csv "http://xach.com/tmp/cloudfront-log.txt.gz") :into (pgloader:parse-target-string "pgsql:///ql?tablename=cloudfront") :options '("skip header = 2" "fields terminated by '\t'"))
2015-01-13T13:08:08Z dim: but currently requires that you specifiy the list of source fields, rather than getting it from the table definition when from the load file, I guess it qualifies as a bug, will fix later
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2015-01-13T13:09:47Z Xach: I am also looking into postgres for full-text search
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2015-01-13T13:10:09Z dim: do you want The Real Thing™ or just something hackish that works in ten minutes?
2015-01-13T13:10:33Z dim: (with great results and performance, not that hackish)
2015-01-13T13:11:07Z dim: have a look at http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/interactive/pgtrgm.html it's the poor man's full text and it's pretty awesome
2015-01-13T13:11:14Z dim: it even indexes regexp based searches
2015-01-13T13:11:48Z dim: you might like my http://tapoueh.org/blog/2013/09/06-pg_trgm-suggestions article about it to kick-start you, too
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2015-01-13T13:12:47Z Xach: Tusen tack
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2015-01-13T13:13:18Z dim: well for once we're talking about things where I can help ;-)
2015-01-13T13:14:29Z dim: if you want to quicky produce graphs from your data, have a look at pgcharts (it's not in Quicklisp yet, we might add it): https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts
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2015-01-13T13:22:34Z dim: Xach: also note that I've use the INET datatype where maybe the ip4 datatype from the ip4r extension migth be more appropriate --- it's an extension you have to install separately tho
2015-01-13T13:24:21Z dim: (both allow indexing for ip range searches and geolocation and things like that, ip4r is more useful when you also load-in a geolocation database then join from the ip in the log to the location on the globe, things like that)
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2015-01-13T13:59:07Z mrkkrp: what is the best way to parse xml in cl? there is a lot of stuff: http://cliki.net/XML
2015-01-13T13:59:22Z Xach: mrkkrp: I have used cxml for that for a long time.
2015-01-13T13:59:37Z H4ns: mrkkrp: "best" is a rather fuzzy term.  i prefer cxml because it is complete.
2015-01-13T14:00:10Z mrkkrp: Xach, H4ns, thanks I'll take a loot at cxml
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2015-01-13T14:00:28Z H4ns: "complete" in the sense that it makes no simplifying assumptions about what xml is.
2015-01-13T14:00:53Z Shinmera: I like Plump because I wrote it myself after getting fed up with cxml.
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2015-01-13T14:04:48Z mrkkrp: *look, of course :)
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2015-01-13T14:10:13Z mrkkrp: Shinmera, maybe I will try Plump too, after some studying of artistic license
2015-01-13T14:10:47Z Shinmera: mrkkrp: https://tldrlegal.com/license/artistic-license-2.0-(artistic)
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2015-01-13T14:18:40Z mrkkrp: Shinmera, can I ask why this license?
2015-01-13T14:19:05Z Shinmera: Because after struggling to find one that I liked for a long time, this one seemed like the closest thing.
2015-01-13T14:19:33Z Shinmera: It's almost completely free, but avoids name clashes and gives a reference back.
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2015-01-13T14:23:01Z wasamasa: hmm, looks slightly more restricted than bsd
2015-01-13T14:23:11Z Shinmera: Yeah, that's the gist of it.
2015-01-13T14:23:36Z Shinmera: I basically wanted something that allows you to do whatever, but ensures that people know the origin if you decide to fork
2015-01-13T14:23:42Z Shinmera: So that fits the bill rather well.
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2015-01-13T15:05:57Z mrkkrp: Shinmera, Plump seems to be lightweigt (compared to cxml) and fast. I think I will go with it. Thanks!
2015-01-13T15:06:39Z Shinmera: Be aware of the extra handling of xml-tags required when parsing non-html documents.
2015-01-13T15:07:06Z Shinmera: (the last line on the How To section)
2015-01-13T15:08:14Z mrkkrp: Shinmera, ok
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2015-01-13T15:34:21Z dim: Shinmera: I like WTFPL myself FWIW, or ISC if you want to avoid the rudeness
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2015-01-13T15:35:06Z Shinmera: dim: Right, but that doesn't include the "rename" and "link back" clauses that I want and like.
2015-01-13T15:36:01Z dim: makes sense then
2015-01-13T15:36:13Z dim: ISC might, but well you know what you're doing apparently
2015-01-13T15:36:44Z Shinmera: I don't want to pretend to know what I'm doing, I just spend more hours worrying about licenses than I'd like to already :)
2015-01-13T15:36:50Z Shinmera: *spent
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2015-01-13T15:45:45Z dim: hehe, that's the point where I just switched to WTFPL and stopped worrying. Then I had some bug reports about the licence text being rude and picked ISC in case I would want to consider the issue seriously enough...
2015-01-13T15:46:13Z Shinmera: I would not consider rudeness a bug.
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2015-01-13T15:47:16Z dim: I didn't
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2015-01-13T15:47:54Z dim: whole story is at https://github.com/dimitri/el-get/issues/474 if you want a license text rudeness diversion from whatever you'd rather be doing ;-)
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2015-01-13T15:50:54Z Shinmera: I'm watching livestreams, so anything else would be more productive at this point.
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2015-01-13T16:16:40Z mrkkrp: 'I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended' - Linus Torvalds. What a profound philosophy. And people quote it!
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2015-01-13T16:18:53Z mrkkrp: It's really sad that GNU didn't finished Hurd in time.
2015-01-13T16:22:07Z Shinmera: Luckily this is not the place to discuss philosophies.
2015-01-13T16:22:50Z mrkkrp: Shinmera: yeah, sorry
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2015-01-13T16:34:25Z Xach: I am not really thrilled with the spate of projects using #. to populate .asd data
2015-01-13T16:37:58Z splittist: Why? (them and you)
2015-01-13T16:38:41Z PuercoPop: because you have to evaluate code to read data from them I presume?
2015-01-13T16:38:53Z Xach: splittist: it's for the noble purpose of storing information in one place, e.g. slurping the :long-description value from README.org, or the :version data from version.txt or something.
2015-01-13T16:39:46Z Xach: splittist: But it makes it hard to extract data without running arbitrary code, and even if it is fine to do that, you have to make the environment sufficiently asdf-compatible (e.g. *default-pathname-defaults* is the same as the pathname in which the .asd file resides)
2015-01-13T16:40:15Z Xach: more work for me
2015-01-13T16:40:43Z Shinmera: Sometimes I think it really would've been better if ASDF hadn't allowed arbitrary code in .asds
2015-01-13T16:41:14Z Xach: lovable little programs.
2015-01-13T16:42:30Z splittist: time to distribute that work. Quick, someone write asd-tools that does that slurping for each author before they make work for Xach. (Although that does seem to cut somewhat against the grain of the quicklisp philosophy...)
2015-01-13T16:43:06Z Xach: ASDF3 makes it easier to slurp from a file without using #.
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2015-01-13T16:44:54Z splittist: slurp-input-stream?
2015-01-13T16:45:34Z Xach can't remember the syntax; it's a keyword
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2015-01-13T16:49:31Z splittist: for version specifiers (:read-file-form <pathname-or-string> :at <access-at-specifier>)
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2015-01-13T16:50:21Z Xach: hmm, i thought it was more general. interesting.
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2015-01-13T16:55:21Z splittist: OTOH, the asdf manual doesn't say anything about :description or :long-description (except one use of :description in an example), so it may, in practice, be more general.
2015-01-13T16:57:13Z Xach: the two best words in the english language: de facto!
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2015-01-13T17:00:32Z Xach makes a new readtable that converts #.foo to "foo"
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2015-01-13T17:02:23Z splittist: with-screwu-io-syntax...
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2015-01-13T17:12:33Z jasom: who was it talking about building a lisp runtime on top of a linux kernel?
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2015-01-13T17:12:57Z jasom: er lisp userspace rather
2015-01-13T17:13:01Z ecraven: movitz?
2015-01-13T17:13:09Z jasom: ecraven: no that was lisp on bare-metal
2015-01-13T17:13:16Z jasom: this was a linux kernel with a lisp userspace
2015-01-13T17:13:19Z dlowe: Xach: actually, I think you're in a pretty good position to start demanding changes from authors to make your work easier.
2015-01-13T17:13:20Z ecraven: ah, sorry, misremembered
2015-01-13T17:13:45Z Xach: dlowe: I don't think I need to demand anything. I don't think I've done a good job communicating in advance what makes it easier, though.
2015-01-13T17:13:52Z ecraven: jasom: I remember reading about it, but no idea where :-/
2015-01-13T17:14:11Z dlowe: Xach: "To be accepted in quicklisp, your library should do the following: ..."
2015-01-13T17:14:30Z Xach: dlowe: Right. I haven't really comprehensively written that down anywhere to point people to.
2015-01-13T17:15:16Z Xach: I'd like to make a program that checks a given system for quicklisp-related problems, like missing .asd metadata
2015-01-13T17:15:29Z Xach: People could run that before filling out an issue
2015-01-13T17:16:16Z dlowe: The only sane way I've ever seen programmatic configs is a program that returned a configuration structure.
2015-01-13T17:16:38Z dlowe: so you could have your flexibility and your analytics at the same time
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2015-01-13T17:17:06Z dlowe: This worked well in perl, of all places.
2015-01-13T17:17:26Z theseb: jasom: cool stuf
2015-01-13T17:18:11Z theseb: jasom: i was thinking the other day that if I stay in emacs and do everything there......in a sense...kinda sorta.....i'm "living" in a lisp platform so that is kinda like having a virtual "lisp machine" no?
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2015-01-13T17:22:43Z wasamasa: emacs is a crappy lisp machine, yes
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2015-01-13T17:23:10Z wasamasa: then, I haven't had the joy of using a real one (just its keyboard once), so I don't have any grounds to complain :P
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2015-01-13T17:32:00Z dim: there's Erlang on Xen, maybe we could build CL on Xen too?
2015-01-13T17:32:13Z dim: http://erlangonxen.org/
2015-01-13T17:32:24Z dim: it might target kvm rather than Xen too
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2015-01-13T17:38:06Z jasom: I want to say it was pjb; but I'm to lazy to grep my logs at this point
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2015-01-13T18:11:16Z drmeister: Xach - Howdy, how would you like me to submit some clasp specific updates for quicklisp?
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2015-01-13T18:12:27Z drmeister: I think I just cloned your quicklisp repo.  Should I rebase and figure out how to submit a pull request from the command line?
2015-01-13T18:12:54Z drmeister: I kinda caused some problems for the SLIME people a few days ago by not rebasing (sorry guys).
2015-01-13T18:13:04Z drmeister is still feeling bad about that.
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2015-01-13T18:16:20Z Xach: drmeister: a patch file by email is fine
2015-01-13T18:17:37Z drmeister: Great!  Thank you.
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2015-01-13T19:09:54Z jasom: whoa, someone already got Corman Lisp compiing under VS 2013
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2015-01-13T19:10:28Z jasom: actually they did it about a week ago, so that was less than 3 days after sharplispers posted it to github
2015-01-13T19:11:31Z ehu: heh. it already has 33 forks
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2015-01-13T19:11:41Z ehu: 31 watchers and 248 stars
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2015-01-13T19:12:17Z jasom: There was a bit of bottled up demand for an MIT licensed lisp that has windows as a first-class platform
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2015-01-13T19:12:48Z ehu: jasom: I bought Corman Lisp 10 years ago for that exact reason.
2015-01-13T19:13:13Z ehu: unfortunately, it didn't have a library on which the IDE is built, so, I couldn't use that library for my own applications.
2015-01-13T19:13:23Z ehu: unfortunately, that's where I ran out of time.
2015-01-13T19:13:57Z Xach: I am glad to have helped get the source out there, but I can't really do any maintenance or testing.
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2015-01-13T19:14:26Z ehu: Xach: sure.
2015-01-13T19:14:34Z ehu: maybe we can form an organisation around it?
2015-01-13T19:14:48Z ehu: like volunteers who manage the source code together?
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2015-01-13T19:15:01Z ehu: would be nice to have someone step up to do that.
2015-01-13T19:15:24Z Hexstream: Free agents are free to do that.
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2015-01-13T19:16:57Z Xach: ehu: the cormaniacs?
2015-01-13T19:17:39Z jasom: sounds like a 60s band
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2015-01-13T19:31:07Z Hexstream1: Damn. Hello crazy nonsense connection problems. o_o
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2015-01-13T20:00:26Z shka: hi
2015-01-13T20:00:41Z shka: how do i lock bt lock for read?
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2015-01-13T20:01:07Z shka: that is: multiple readers, but any writer will block
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2015-01-13T20:27:56Z ebrasca: I dont understand this code:
2015-01-13T20:28:08Z ebrasca: (defun mad-adder (one)
2015-01-13T20:28:08Z ebrasca:   (declare (special one))
2015-01-13T20:28:08Z ebrasca:   (let ((one 1))
2015-01-13T20:28:08Z ebrasca:     (+ one (locally (declare (special one)) one))))
2015-01-13T20:28:29Z ebrasca: (defvar one 1.0)
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2015-01-13T20:30:26Z dlowe: it was not intended to be understood
2015-01-13T20:30:48Z ebrasca: (mad-adder one) give 2.0
2015-01-13T20:30:55Z ebrasca: why not 2
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2015-01-13T20:34:32Z jsnell_: the LET is binding ONE lexically, not shadowing the dynamic binding
2015-01-13T20:34:57Z Hexstream: ebrasca: In the body of the LET, the first "one" refers to the lexical binding (1) while the second "one" refers to the dynamic binding (1.0). Per the rules of float contagion, (+ 1 1.0) is 2.0.
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2015-01-13T20:36:39Z ebrasca: thx,now i understand
2015-01-13T20:36:54Z jsnell_: I believe both answers woukd in fact be valid, since you're invoking undefined behavior by proclaiming ONE as special after compiling a use of it
2015-01-13T20:37:39Z jsnell_: a compiler would typically return 2.0, while an interpreter would return 2
2015-01-13T20:38:39Z akkad: ahh a safe-elt does exist
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2015-01-13T20:41:46Z ebrasca: I'm reading at the guide (http://www.learnlispthehardway.org/book/) to understand more common lisp
2015-01-13T20:41:48Z Hexstream: Oops, I was a bit thrown off because the usual *earmuffs* convention for special variables was not used. (And because the defvar was after. (And because I'm a bit rusty.))
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2015-01-13T20:43:10Z Grue`: ebrasca: in my case it returns 2
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2015-01-13T20:43:42Z Grue`: i don't see why another (declare (special one)) would change anything
2015-01-13T20:43:46Z jsnell_: ^--
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2015-01-13T20:44:51Z jsnell_: if you had the defvar before the defun, the result would be unambiguous, and the declare specials would not matter
2015-01-13T20:45:01Z ebrasca: but guide say 2.0 (http://www.learnlispthehardway.org/book/1-01-05-symbols/)
2015-01-13T20:45:16Z Grue`: I thought "learn X the hard way" isn't supposed to be about extremely obfuscated code
2015-01-13T20:45:52Z Grue`: "learn C the hard way": here's the list of IOCCC winners
2015-01-13T20:46:15Z jsnell_: the code in that guide is not the code you pasted
2015-01-13T20:47:48Z jsnell_: the ordering matters. (that guide also looks like garbage if it has examples like that in early chapters)
2015-01-13T20:47:57Z Grue`: if i declared `one' to be special, then  (let ((one 1)) ...) is already a dynamic binding isn't it?
2015-01-13T20:48:13Z jsnell_: yes
2015-01-13T20:48:19Z jsnell_: sorry, no
2015-01-13T20:48:30Z jsnell_: if you've proclaimed it special, then it's a dynamic binding
2015-01-13T20:48:38Z jsnell_: if you've declared it, it's a lexical binding
2015-01-13T20:48:59Z Grue`: damn, guess i need to read clhs again
2015-01-13T20:49:01Z jsnell_: this example unfortunately is doing both
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2015-01-13T20:49:47Z jsnell_: it's the difference between a bound and free declaration
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2015-01-13T20:52:16Z Grue`: clhs special
2015-01-13T20:52:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm
2015-01-13T20:52:53Z Grue`: well, clhs describes this pretty well, at least
2015-01-13T20:53:07Z Grue`: namely, the difference between declare and declaim
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2015-01-13T21:01:19Z Hexstream: clhs 3.3.4
2015-01-13T21:01:20Z specbot: Declaration Scope: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_cd.htm
2015-01-13T21:01:27Z Hexstream: "The scope of a bound declaration is the same as the lexical scope of the binding to which it applies; for special variables, this means the scope that thebinding would have had had it been a lexical binding."
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2015-01-13T21:02:33Z ebrasca: This book is bad (http://www.learnlispthehardway.org/book/)?
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2015-01-13T21:05:29Z akkad: yeap... the worst
2015-01-13T21:05:44Z Xach: akkad: could you expand on that?
2015-01-13T21:06:11Z akkad: Xach: sorry, just feeding the troll
2015-01-13T21:06:22Z Xach: akkad: Who?
2015-01-13T21:06:32Z Vivitron: ebrasca: it seems to still be in progress, here's their recent announcement:
2015-01-13T21:06:32Z Vivitron:  
2015-01-13T21:06:32Z akkad: <ebrasca> This book is bad (http://www.learnlispthehardway.org/book/)?
2015-01-13T21:06:44Z Xach: akkad: You need to recalibrate.
2015-01-13T21:06:56Z Vivitron: hmm, seems I can't paste here sorry, but it's on planet lisp
2015-01-13T21:06:59Z ebrasca: Sori i have poor englis
2015-01-13T21:07:20Z Shinmera: ebrasca: I would not currently recommend it as it is woefully incomplete as of now.
2015-01-13T21:07:22Z Xach: ebrasca: You might want to start with something like gigamonkeys.com/book
2015-01-13T21:07:25Z akkad: a book that is a WIP is hard to judge imho
2015-01-13T21:07:39Z Shinmera: ebrasca: In case you're looking for a good book to start, PCL would be it.
2015-01-13T21:07:49Z Shinmera: ebrasca: Which is what Xach linked just now.
2015-01-13T21:10:01Z Hexstream: For a bit of context, I think I remember the author saying somewhere that they had put up a first version of the book (learn lisp the hard way) for testing and were about abandon the project but then it was posted on reddit (or similar) and had a bit of attention, so they decided to continue the project after all.
2015-01-13T21:11:18Z Vivitron: Here's the announcement saying the Toronto lisp user group adopted it and encouraging contributors: https://cjelupton.wordpress.com/2015/01/07/learn-lisp-the-hard-way-now-brought-to-you-by-lispto/
2015-01-13T21:11:18Z Vivitron:  
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2015-01-13T21:16:58Z ebrasca: Thanks all, I will continue where I stuck in PCL(CLOS)
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2015-01-13T22:52:23Z pjb: Xach: perhaps you could just define a special asdf method to return the read asdf form.  So it's asdf who would read it in its environment.
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2015-01-13T23:06:26Z pjb: jasom: I did http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html and started to work on http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=summary&p=public/lep but IIRC there was some discussion about making sbcl run on bare hardware too.  In any case, it's not too difficult to take a unix program, and make it run as init process on a unix kernel. You just need to install the libraries it requires, and to mount the root file
2015-01-13T23:06:26Z pjb: system.  The later can be done from the unix program (from a CL implementation if it has FFI).
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2015-01-13T23:12:19Z pjb: took 823,809 microseconds (0.823809 seconds) to run. /  82,071,616 bytes of memory allocated. with ccl.
2015-01-13T23:12:28Z pjb: oops wrong channel.
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2015-01-13T23:30:05Z White_Flame: Dumb sematics question:  Does CL's method dispatch count as duck typing?
2015-01-13T23:30:14Z fe[nl]ix: no
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2015-01-13T23:30:34Z White_Flame: yes, that's my inclination, since the methods are not on objects.
2015-01-13T23:30:48Z White_Flame: however, wiki and someone else on another channel claim it is
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2015-01-13T23:32:09Z fe[nl]ix: what wiki ?
2015-01-13T23:32:26Z White_Flame: _the_ wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing#In_Common_Lisp
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2015-01-13T23:34:05Z fe[nl]ix: that wiki page is wrong
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2015-01-13T23:35:58Z White_Flame: I'm glad to see agreement on that
2015-01-13T23:36:10Z gabc: Isn't that just reimplementing the methods?
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2015-01-13T23:36:56Z gabc: Nevermind that
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