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I'll tell mrkkrp when he/she/it next speaks. 2015-01-08T00:05:03Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:05:15Z aggrolite quit (Quit: aggrolite) 2015-01-08T00:05:39Z jasom: suggestions for generating xml? 2015-01-08T00:08:08Z jasom: maybe just cl-who if I'm not doing anything fancy 2015-01-08T00:08:28Z ajp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:09:30Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:09:51Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:10:44Z vdamewood quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-01-08T00:10:46Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:14:04Z s00pcan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T00:14:28Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:14:40Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:15:06Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:16:21Z JuanitoJons quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-01-08T00:16:44Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:17:00Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:17:16Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:18:50Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:20:38Z Alkahest2 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:23:29Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:23:36Z Xach: cxml has nice options 2015-01-08T00:23:45Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T00:24:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:24:20Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-08T00:24:31Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:24:33Z Alkahest quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:25:18Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:27:45Z chef-level-1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:28:04Z chef-level-1: hello lispers I have a numbers problem, I want to count from 1 to 100 2015-01-08T00:28:20Z chef-level-1: for any number divizsible by 3 I want to print foo 2015-01-08T00:28:27Z chef-level-1: same for five but print bar 2015-01-08T00:28:34Z jasom: Xach: I couldn't figure out how to make a dom from scratch in it 2015-01-08T00:28:40Z jasom: Xach: at least just from the documentation 2015-01-08T00:28:41Z chef-level-1: and if a number is divisible by 3 and 5, foobar will be printed 2015-01-08T00:28:50Z chef-level-1: if none of these then print the number itself 2015-01-08T00:28:56Z chef-level-1: how would I do it? 2015-01-08T00:29:02Z Bicyclidine: loop, zerop, and mod 2015-01-08T00:29:39Z Bicyclidine: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/FizzBuzz#Common_Lisp 2015-01-08T00:30:12Z vdamewood joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:31:29Z jasom: chef-level-1: can I recommend you read an introductory text on common lisp? 2015-01-08T00:31:41Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-08T00:32:39Z chef-level-1: ok 2015-01-08T00:32:43Z chef-level-1: which one? 2015-01-08T00:33:02Z Kohelet joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:35:10Z vdamewood quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2015-01-08T00:36:07Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T00:36:11Z Hexstream: minion: PCL? 2015-01-08T00:36:11Z minion: PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2015-01-08T00:37:13Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:38:24Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:38:24Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:40:53Z jasom: chef-level-1: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf 2015-01-08T00:41:27Z jasom: chef-level-1: PCL is good if you're already fairly good at programming in some other language; the one I linked is better if you're not 2015-01-08T00:41:52Z jasom: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-01-08T00:42:00Z jasom doesn't know the minion term to spit out that link 2015-01-08T00:42:16Z jasom: minion: Touretzky? 2015-01-08T00:42:17Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``Touretzky''. 2015-01-08T00:42:17Z Bicyclidine: minion: gentle 2015-01-08T00:42:17Z minion: gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 2015-01-08T00:42:20Z jasom: thanks 2015-01-08T00:43:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:45:01Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:45:15Z chef-level-1: thank you 2015-01-08T00:47:14Z rx_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:48:08Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:48:09Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:48:43Z Ethan- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T00:49:21Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:50:51Z Xach: jasom: oh. i haven't done anything domish with it. i just did with-element and with-attribute. 2015-01-08T00:50:51Z rx_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T00:51:38Z Zamenhof joined #lisp 2015-01-08T00:52:40Z josemanuel quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2015-01-08T00:54:07Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:54:30Z jasom: oh, you can generate sax events to serialize... I didin't know that 2015-01-08T00:55:51Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T00:59:27Z Alkahest2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T01:00:53Z Vutral joined #lisp 2015-01-08T01:01:58Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T01:02:59Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T01:04:49Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T01:06:15Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T01:06:27Z Alkahest2 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T01:07:00Z echo-area joined #lisp 2015-01-08T01:08:02Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-08T01:10:49Z Alkahest2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-08T01:12:18Z Xach: dlowe: you on for tomorrow? 2015-01-08T01:12:35Z Xach pictures 13 showing up two by two, like the dwarves 2015-01-08T01:12:42Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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And therefore written "CamelCasePackage", not #:|CamelCasePackage|, which would be required, and defeat the purpose. 2015-01-08T02:24:44Z pjb: PuercoPop: some people are afraid of uppercase letters. 2015-01-08T02:25:04Z loke: pjb: That's an exception though. However, if you don't want to have to rewrite your defpackage forms if you change casing rules, then using #:foo makes it compatible with foo:bar symbol refs 2015-01-08T02:25:08Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T02:25:23Z pjb: I've learned FORTRAN, COBOL, Modula-2 and a few other programming languages that were written entirely or where at least the keywords were written in upper case. I'm not afraid of uppercase letters! 2015-01-08T02:26:13Z billitch joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:26:16Z pjb: M-x caps-mode RET is nice and funny. 2015-01-08T02:26:45Z loke: pjb: I don't have that 2015-01-08T02:26:57Z pjb: They sent people on the Moon with uppercases! You can't say so much of lowercases! 2015-01-08T02:27:36Z loke: I kind of sad to never have had the opportunity to have programmed using puchned cards 2015-01-08T02:28:21Z PuercoPop: I would think that case was not a relevant factor. So the motivation is to prevent interning extra symbols, I'll keep using #: then as the differences don't bother me. Thanks pjb 2015-01-08T02:28:22Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:28:30Z loke: Or one of these: http://i.stack.imgur.com/tXYI1.png 2015-01-08T02:28:44Z pjb: Yes, you should locate a 029 and some mainframe in a Museum, and spend an afternoon writing a little program with the turnaround punch-cards/compile/run/print-out 2015-01-08T02:29:17Z pjb: loke: even worse: you write with a pencil your program on those forms, and a secretary punches the cards for you! :-) 2015-01-08T02:29:53Z pjb: Notice the number of lines per form! :-) 2015-01-08T02:30:53Z loke: It's one card per line 2015-01-08T02:31:08Z loke: pjb: I can't believe all programmers had secretaries doing it? 2015-01-08T02:31:54Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2015-01-08T02:31:57Z pjb: Since there wasn't enough 029 for all the programmers, it was more efficient to pool this job. 2015-01-08T02:32:48Z loke: Must have been lovely to track down a bug caused by a typist making a typo 2015-01-08T02:32:52Z pjb: A few 029 were set aside for debugging, so the programmers could still punch new cards themselves, but the bulk of the punching was done by dactlographs who could type faster than programmers :-) 2015-01-08T02:33:01Z loke: Imagine having Emacs randomly change a character in your file once in a while 2015-01-08T02:33:04Z pjb: They were quite good at not making typoes. 2015-01-08T02:34:01Z pjb: http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/PamMack/lec122/punch.gif 2015-01-08T02:34:05Z loke: Someone should make a USB card punch. 2015-01-08T02:34:19Z pjb: But you can't imagine the noise those electromecanical machines did! 2015-01-08T02:34:50Z loke: I can 2015-01-08T02:34:57Z Hexstream left #lisp 2015-01-08T02:35:27Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2M4ttzBnY 2015-01-08T02:35:29Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:35:31Z s00pcan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T02:38:20Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-01-08T02:39:02Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:43:35Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2015-01-08T02:43:47Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:43:52Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:45:39Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T02:46:18Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T02:47:31Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T02:49:14Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-08T02:50:05Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:50:13Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:51:14Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T02:53:31Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Bug fix) 2015-01-08T02:53:44Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:55:24Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T02:55:37Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-01-08T02:56:33Z ered quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T02:56:49Z s00pcan_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-08T02:59:42Z ered joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:01:19Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:02:40Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:04:27Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T03:05:59Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:06:32Z oleo is now known as Guest71246 2015-01-08T03:06:52Z Guest71246 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T03:11:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T03:16:27Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T03:23:43Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:23:52Z maxpeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T03:23:57Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:24:27Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T03:24:53Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:26:09Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:27:49Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T03:28:01Z akkad: always use a marker on the sides of your card stacks 2015-01-08T03:28:10Z akkad: draw x's so if they get out of order 2015-01-08T03:28:30Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:29:41Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:30:50Z loke: akkad: Sounds like a reasonable thing to do. Why didn't people always do that? 2015-01-08T03:30:51Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2015-01-08T03:34:52Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T03:36:34Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-08T03:44:05Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:44:26Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:45:44Z akkad: once you dropped a stack, you learned... 2015-01-08T03:45:48Z doomlord_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:46:25Z alpha- joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:46:46Z alpha-: are there any terminal emulators or shells writter in common lisp (scheme is okay too) ? 2015-01-08T03:46:54Z akkad: elisp ones yes 2015-01-08T03:47:00Z alpha-: hmmm 2015-01-08T03:48:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-08T03:51:06Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T03:53:41Z kushal joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:02:40Z freehck joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:02:45Z freehck: hello. 2015-01-08T04:03:35Z cosmicexplorer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:04:54Z freehck: I've just extended my class 'cell' by a new superclass, and now I see that functions that worked for it earlier (that was inherited from the 1st superclass) does not work. 2015-01-08T04:05:00Z freehck: What can be the matter/ 2015-01-08T04:05:24Z freehck: Firstly it was defined as (defclass cell (conservative-variables) ... 2015-01-08T04:06:03Z freehck: And I had a function `conservative->primitive' that worked fine for conservative-variables and for cell classes. 2015-01-08T04:06:27Z freehck: Now the definition is like (defclass cell (conservative-variables coordinates) ... 2015-01-08T04:06:37Z freehck: And I get errors. 2015-01-08T04:06:42Z Bicyclidine: What errors? 2015-01-08T04:06:50Z jasom: clhs 7.6.6.1 2015-01-08T04:06:51Z specbot: Determining the Effective Method: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffa.htm 2015-01-08T04:09:35Z freehck: Something incomprehensible: The value #1=1#2= #1##2##1##2##1# is not of type SEQUENCE. 2015-01-08T04:09:39Z freehck: I've just tried to delete an additional superclass, and everything is working. But I need to extend it with `coordinates'. 2015-01-08T04:09:50Z freehck: oh, thx 2015-01-08T04:10:32Z Bicyclidine: heh, that's definitely something. what methods do you have on conservative->primitive? 2015-01-08T04:10:45Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:12:04Z freehck: Bicyclidine: nothing important I think. Just make-instance of 'primitive-variables using slots of 'consorvative-variables. 2015-01-08T04:12:08Z |3b|: freehck: is that a literal paste of the error? 2015-01-08T04:12:13Z freehck: I can paste it here. 2015-01-08T04:12:30Z freehck: |3b|: yes. 2015-01-08T04:13:22Z freehck: or what service could I use to paste source? 2015-01-08T04:13:26Z |3b|: use http://paste.lisp.org/new/ for pasting things 2015-01-08T04:13:26Z Bicyclidine: paste.lisp.org 2015-01-08T04:14:33Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:14:38Z |3b| 's guess is you have something in COORDINATES class that confuses the existing method 2015-01-08T04:15:18Z |3b|: that error suggests something odd is happening though, hard to say what without more code though 2015-01-08T04:15:21Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T04:15:33Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:16:05Z doomlord_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T04:16:16Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2015-01-08T04:16:51Z freehck: |3b|: I thought about it, but COORDINATES class does not have a method with this name. 2015-01-08T04:17:38Z |3b| was thinking more of slots with same names, other accessors, etc 2015-01-08T04:17:43Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:17:55Z |3b|: or initargs, initialization methods, etc 2015-01-08T04:18:02Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:18:39Z freehck: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145110 2015-01-08T04:18:41Z |3b|: might try wrapping whatever triggers the error with WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX and see if error is any better 2015-01-08T04:19:40Z Bicyclidine: oh, c->p isn't a gf at all. 2015-01-08T04:19:53Z freehck: what is gf? 2015-01-08T04:19:58Z Bicyclidine: generic function. 2015-01-08T04:20:13Z freehck: oooh... 2015-01-08T04:21:33Z freehck: But if it did work for cv why it doesn't work for cells? 2015-01-08T04:21:56Z freehck: I think that cell is cv too... =/ 2015-01-08T04:22:00Z |3b|: do you have any make-instance methods? 2015-01-08T04:22:04Z Bicyclidine: should be, yes. 2015-01-08T04:22:04Z freehck: yes 2015-01-08T04:22:15Z |3b|: initialize-instance i mean 2015-01-08T04:22:24Z freehck: sorry, no. 2015-01-08T04:22:27Z freehck: not for cells 2015-01-08T04:22:37Z Bicyclidine: any of the superclasses? 2015-01-08T04:22:39Z |3b|: for c-v or coordinates? 2015-01-08T04:23:31Z |3b|: (or any of the other parts of the instance initialization protocol like shared-initialize, reinitialize-instance, etc) 2015-01-08T04:23:45Z freehck: there's one for pv 2015-01-08T04:23:46Z freehck: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((cv primitive-variables) &key P) 2015-01-08T04:23:46Z freehck: (when P (setf (slot-value cv 'rg) (P->rg P)))) 2015-01-08T04:25:03Z freehck: but it's certainly not a superclass for cell 2015-01-08T04:25:04Z doomlord_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:25:30Z |3b|: try without your print-object method on CELL and see if the error makes sense 2015-01-08T04:26:28Z |3b|: and if not, annotate that paste with the backtrace from the error 2015-01-08T04:27:39Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:28:01Z freehck: No, I get the same error. The value #1=1#2= #1##2##1##2##1# is not of type SEQUENCE. 2015-01-08T04:28:30Z |3b|: do you also have a print-object method on primitive-variables? 2015-01-08T04:28:58Z freehck: 0: (ELT #1=1#2= #1##2##1##2##1# 0) [tl,external] 2015-01-08T04:28:58Z freehck: 1: (CONSERVATIVE->PRIMITIVE #) 2015-01-08T04:28:58Z freehck: 2: ((:METHOD PRINT-OBJECT (CELL T)) #) [fast-method] 2015-01-08T04:29:15Z freehck: of course I have 2015-01-08T04:29:25Z Bicyclidine: error printing object <-- oh boy! 2015-01-08T04:29:43Z freehck: em... what does it mean? 2015-01-08T04:29:58Z Bicyclidine: It means your print methods are where the errors are. 2015-01-08T04:30:31Z freehck: But which one? I have a pile of them... 2015-01-08T04:30:38Z akkad: what is the lisp equivalent of (disassemble 'function)? i.e. dump the lisp code for a function 2015-01-08T04:30:39Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:30:40Z freehck: Primitive Variables I suppose/ 2015-01-08T04:30:45Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:30:47Z Bicyclidine: What's the coordinates-vector of whatever is being printed? 2015-01-08T04:30:59Z Bicyclidine: akkad: function-lambda-expression if the implementation bothers to save it 2015-01-08T04:31:04Z |3b|: do primitive-variables get printed as 1 ? 2015-01-08T04:31:28Z akkad: Bicyclidine: thanks 2015-01-08T04:31:28Z freehck: |3b|: as 1? 2015-01-08T04:31:29Z |3b|: the error isn't quite incomprehensible, just odd 2015-01-08T04:31:36Z freehck: I didn't get you. 2015-01-08T04:31:50Z |3b|: it is saying the value is 1 1 1 1 2015-01-08T04:31:55Z freehck: yes 2015-01-08T04:32:03Z freehck: 1 1 1 1 1 2015-01-08T04:32:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:32:56Z |3b|: and frame 0 says you are trying to pass whatever prints as 1 1 1 1 1 to ELT 2015-01-08T04:33:00Z |3b|: in c->p 2015-01-08T04:33:06Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-08T04:33:20Z |3b|: so somehow that is ending up in the VECTOR slot of cv 2015-01-08T04:33:30Z freehck: CL-FROLOV> (make-instance 'primitive-variables :phi 1 :P 1 :ug 1 :ul 1) 2015-01-08T04:33:31Z freehck: 1 1.2110727e-5 1.0 1 1 2015-01-08T04:34:06Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:34:11Z Bicyclidine: that's kind of a weird print object method, by the way, it's normally supposed to be something that the reader can interpret appropriately. 2015-01-08T04:34:21Z Bicyclidine: seriously though, curious about them coordinates-vector. 2015-01-08T04:35:02Z freehck: I suppose that I should better define a specific print-obj methods instead of using print-object? 2015-01-08T04:35:32Z freehck: I mean print- 2015-01-08T04:36:07Z |3b| wouldn't do that, but a "print-in-foo-format" or whatever GF might be reasonable 2015-01-08T04:36:15Z |3b|: with a default that just calls print-object 2015-01-08T04:37:19Z doomlord_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T04:37:34Z |3b|: problem is that you are initializing your VECTOR slot wrong somewhere, or overwriting it 2015-01-08T04:37:52Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:38:00Z |3b|: it is ending up with a primitive-variables instead of a sequence 2015-01-08T04:38:06Z doomlord_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:38:22Z |3b|: not enough code or backtrace to guess where though 2015-01-08T04:38:36Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2015-01-08T04:39:02Z freehck: I could just pack it and share somewhere. Would it be sane and polite? 2015-01-08T04:40:49Z |3b|: something viewable online (like github or just files on a web server) might get more responses, but nothing insane/impolite about providing access to the code your are asking about instead of asking people to guess randomly :p 2015-01-08T04:40:51Z axion would just post the relevant code to a hosted git repo, rather than force us to unpack/load it into our editors to make sense of it 2015-01-08T04:40:55Z capcar quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:42:12Z freehck: http://freehck.ru/share/clf-2015-01-08.tgz 2015-01-08T04:42:15Z doomlord_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T04:42:28Z freehck: thx people. 2015-01-08T04:43:01Z freehck: I'm sorry if it could seem like a crap, but it's begun as my first experience with CL. 2015-01-08T04:45:23Z theos: use pastebin :P 2015-01-08T04:46:02Z freehck: theos: too many files =/ 2015-01-08T04:46:36Z |3b|: you don't need to do (apply #'foo `(,x ,y ,@z)), just (apply #'foo x y z) 2015-01-08T04:47:19Z freehck: apply support a list as the last parameter? 2015-01-08T04:47:38Z |3b|: clhs apply 2015-01-08T04:47:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 2015-01-08T04:47:42Z freehck: oh, truely 2015-01-08T04:47:42Z MoALTz_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T04:47:51Z freehck: already found, thx 2015-01-08T04:48:51Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:49:54Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:50:02Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2015-01-08T04:51:03Z slyrus: morning beach 2015-01-08T04:51:57Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T04:52:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:52:51Z freehck: good -almost- morning 2015-01-08T04:54:33Z doomlord_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T04:55:32Z |3b|: freehck: try adding the methods in http://paste.lisp.org/display/145110#1 and run your code and see if either assertion fails 2015-01-08T04:56:12Z freehck: chls assert 2015-01-08T04:56:16Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T04:56:24Z |3b|: clhs assert 2015-01-08T04:56:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm 2015-01-08T04:56:25Z freehck: clhs assert 2015-01-08T04:56:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_assert.htm 2015-01-08T04:56:34Z |3b|: or just click on it in that paste :) 2015-01-08T04:57:15Z |3b|: basically those just error if you store the wrong thing in that slot, which seems to be happening somewhere 2015-01-08T04:57:55Z |3b|: and it isn't obvious from looking at it for a bit, so easiest to just let the code verify it :) 2015-01-08T04:59:42Z freehck: The assertion (TYPEP #1=(SLOT-VALUE C 'VECTOR) 'SEQUENCE) failed 2015-01-08T04:59:43Z freehck: with #1# = #2=1#3= #2##3##2##3##2#. 2015-01-08T05:00:07Z |3b|: ok, that's promising, what does the backtrace look like? 2015-01-08T05:00:32Z freehck: 0: (SB-KERNEL:ASSERT-ERROR (TYPEP (SLOT-VALUE C (QUOTE VECTOR)) (QUOTE SEQUENCE)) (((SLOT-VALUE C #) #1=1#2= #1##2##1##2##1#)) NIL NIL) 2015-01-08T05:00:32Z freehck: 1: ((:METHOD INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER (CONSERVATIVE-VARIABLES)) #) [fast-method] 2015-01-08T05:00:32Z freehck: 2: ((SB-PCL::EMF INITIALIZE-INSTANCE) #) 2015-01-08T05:00:32Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T05:00:59Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:01:16Z |3b|: add whole backtrace to the paste, first few entries aren't interesting (and that is on the large side for pasting to channel already) 2015-01-08T05:01:22Z freehck: omg 2015-01-08T05:01:23Z freehck: I got 2015-01-08T05:01:44Z freehck: :vector should contain a (vector 1 2 3 4) 2015-01-08T05:01:51Z freehck: and I have :vector *cv* 2015-01-08T05:02:04Z freehck: but *cv* is not a vector! ))) 2015-01-08T05:02:10Z freehck: Stupid mistake! ) 2015-01-08T05:02:43Z freehck: Thank you! Thank you very much! ) 2015-01-08T05:03:47Z |3b| would suggest either avoiding print-object methods while developing (possibly use pprint-dispatch instead, or a separate printing function), or adding a flag to them to disable anything more than print-unreadable-object to use when debugging 2015-01-08T05:04:19Z |3b|: probably would have been easier to find without the 'incomprehensible error message' 2015-01-08T05:04:22Z Bicyclidine: god, yeah, they're always the worst bugs 2015-01-08T05:04:33Z Bicyclidine: other than memory corruption or something of course 2015-01-08T05:04:53Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-08T05:05:11Z |3b|: yeah, bugs that break your debugger in the process are particularly annoying 2015-01-08T05:05:46Z freehck: Well, I'll try to improve the situation. 2015-01-08T05:12:17Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:16:32Z vlnx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T05:18:00Z jlongster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T05:18:27Z zRecursive: Hi, friends! Would you mind telling me what your favorite English font in emacs is ? 2015-01-08T05:18:46Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:19:43Z oleo: either terminus or gnu 2015-01-08T05:19:43Z freehck: zRecursive: dejavu-sans! =) 2015-01-08T05:19:52Z oleo: ja that too 2015-01-08T05:20:26Z vlnx joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:21:07Z freehck: I do not understand why people like terminus. Was never be able to read with this font. Maybe it's a matter of taste. 2015-01-08T05:21:30Z zRecursive: (set-default-font "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono-10") seems not work ? 2015-01-08T05:22:01Z oleo: you need bigger font size with terminus 2015-01-08T05:22:09Z oleo: minimum 15 normal 18 2015-01-08T05:22:20Z oleo: and big like 20, 22, 24 etc... 2015-01-08T05:22:29Z |3b| uses 'fixed' at less than about 140dpi, doesn't care much at 200+ 2015-01-08T05:23:49Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:23:56Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T05:24:25Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:24:33Z billstclair quit (Changing host) 2015-01-08T05:24:34Z billstclair joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:25:52Z freehck: |3b|: 'fixed' is not a font. It's just an order to use the default fixed font you have in your distributive. 2015-01-08T05:26:33Z alpha-: terminus is unreadable 2015-01-08T05:26:45Z alpha-: some people just like hurting themselves 2015-01-08T05:33:21Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:37:02Z ffwacom left #lisp 2015-01-08T05:37:03Z axion uses 8px terminus 2015-01-08T05:40:46Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-01-08T05:41:56Z zRecursive: axion: What is your 'set-default-font command ? 2015-01-08T05:42:35Z axion: is that for emacs? 2015-01-08T05:43:18Z Zamenhof quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-08T05:43:26Z zRecursive: yeah 2015-01-08T05:43:30Z axion uses vim 2015-01-08T05:43:32Z |3b|: freehck: i guess i'm actually using 6x10 rather than 'fixed' anyway 2015-01-08T05:44:10Z axion: http://i.imgur.com/JgSp9NY.png 2015-01-08T05:44:16Z zRecursive: |3b|: how do i change (set-default-font "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono-10") ? 2015-01-08T05:48:16Z |3b| would shift-left click, change buffer font, pick that font/size, then M-x describe-font RET RET and see what name it gave, and put that in the call 2015-01-08T05:48:32Z |3b|: #emacs would probably know how to do that sort of thing correctly though 2015-01-08T05:53:35Z |3b| apparently had DPI scaling on for emacs and hadn't noticed until people started talking about fonts :p 2015-01-08T05:57:12Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-08T05:57:26Z zyaku joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:03:01Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T06:03:08Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:03:21Z Quadrescence quit (Changing host) 2015-01-08T06:03:21Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:03:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T06:05:35Z Quadrescence quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T06:05:49Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T06:06:35Z zRecursive: |3b|: thanks 2015-01-08T06:08:59Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:17:09Z jamesd3142 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:17:10Z freehck: people, is there a way in sbcl to turn off TCO in order to see a full backtrace? 2015-01-08T06:17:58Z beach: freehck: As I recall, if you use DEBUG 3, it doesn't use TCO. 2015-01-08T06:18:06Z freehck: thx 2015-01-08T06:18:38Z beach: freehck: In my .sbclrc I have this: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3))) 2015-01-08T06:19:49Z beach: freehck: During development, you probably always want to do that. 2015-01-08T06:22:03Z beach: freehck: I suggest you do: M-x define-global-abbrevthxthank you 2015-01-08T06:22:40Z |3b| uses C-u C-c C-c to recompile individual functions with high debug as needed 2015-01-08T06:24:24Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T06:29:40Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:30:24Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:31:38Z jamesd3142 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T06:33:08Z beach: |3b|: I find that during development (which for me is most of the time) I need good debugging almost all the time. With your method, I would practically always have to recompile practically every function individually. 2015-01-08T06:37:46Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:38:57Z CRM114 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:40:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:43:05Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:43:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T06:43:52Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T06:44:04Z k-dawg quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T06:47:12Z beach: I need help from people who have easy access to implementations other than SBCL. I need to know how they implement COUNT .. :FROM-END T on a list. In particular, I need to know whether they use the same method as SBCL, which is to reverse the list (non-destructively). 2015-01-08T06:48:27Z Bicyclidine: i'll look it up, just a sec. 2015-01-08T06:48:38Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:48:44Z beach: Thanks. 2015-01-08T06:49:05Z Bicyclidine: ccl does the same. 2015-01-08T06:49:29Z beach: Bicyclidine: Good! (for me). :) 2015-01-08T06:51:10Z pnpuff left #lisp 2015-01-08T06:51:28Z adlai joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:51:34Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T06:53:16Z beach: I guess, if I continue doing this kind of research, I should bite the bullet and install all major implementations, including the commercial ones. 2015-01-08T06:54:18Z Bicyclidine: i just have sbcl and ccl, mostly so that i can try something on more than one setup to find obvious brokenness 2015-01-08T06:54:31Z beach: Yeah. It's a good idea. 2015-01-08T06:54:50Z harish joined #lisp 2015-01-08T06:58:41Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:02:14Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:02:22Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T07:03:34Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:05:43Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T07:06:07Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:07:21Z keen__________24 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T07:07:38Z ahungry: Does anyone know if quicklisp does a git pull (or fetch or something) to update repositories, or does it do a fresh git clone on the sources.txt address? 2015-01-08T07:08:30Z keen__________24 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:09:44Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-08T07:10:37Z PuercoPop: i think neither, it downloads a tarball that is pulled ~once a month 2015-01-08T07:11:51Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2015-01-08T07:14:16Z ahungry: Is the tarball generated from clones or pulls though? :) 2015-01-08T07:14:19Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:15:19Z ahungry: I have a package in there but I believe a git push -f I performed is going to break any subsequent attempts on an auto merge git pull of it, although a git clone would obviously be fine and work 2015-01-08T07:15:34Z ahungry: just wondering if I should try to get ahold of Xach and let him know or if its a non-issue 2015-01-08T07:17:18Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:25:31Z wgslayer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T07:26:14Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T07:26:41Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:27:54Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:32:51Z maxpeck joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:33:22Z mrkkrp joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:33:22Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T07:33:28Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:39:37Z wgslayer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T07:40:23Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:44:11Z H4ns: ahungry: it is a non-issue 2015-01-08T07:44:45Z H4ns: ahungry: if it would be an issue, it would be one that xach would fix for himself if he really ran into it, which i find rather doubtful 2015-01-08T07:46:26Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:46:40Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:46:46Z wgslayer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T07:46:50Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:49:19Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:53:11Z spacebat joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:53:49Z wgslayer joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:56:25Z ahungry: thanks H4ns 2015-01-08T07:56:26Z ahungry: night all 2015-01-08T07:57:06Z mb joined #lisp 2015-01-08T07:57:09Z mb is now known as Guest49442 2015-01-08T07:58:45Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:01:48Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T08:03:18Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:05:30Z CRM114 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T08:07:16Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: lifeform experiment vanished by supernova contermination) 2015-01-08T08:08:54Z tcr joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:11:27Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T08:11:58Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T08:13:01Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T08:16:46Z arenz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:19:02Z cmatei quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-08T08:21:35Z tcr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-08T08:21:39Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T08:22:12Z mrkkrp: hello 2015-01-08T08:22:12Z minion: mrkkrp, memo from jasom: all programs follow some pre-defined algorithm 2015-01-08T08:24:35Z mrkkrp: jasom, well, most of them certainly do, but if program rewrites itself, maybe with help of pseudo-random things, is its behavior still considered predefined? To what extent it's predefined? 2015-01-08T08:24:48Z PuercoPop: is there a format control string that means print at most n characters of a string? 2015-01-08T08:24:55Z H4ns: PuercoPop: no 2015-01-08T08:25:34Z mband quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-08T08:26:07Z PuercoPop: I never thought there would be a the day where I wanted format to have more functionality. Thanks 2015-01-08T08:26:29Z loke: PuercoPop: Why not? 2015-01-08T08:26:30Z H4ns: you'll find it lacking in other areas, too. 2015-01-08T08:26:43Z loke: PuercoPop: It itsn't turing-complete, so in my opinion it isn't flexible enough 2015-01-08T08:27:12Z H4ns: loke: the lack of turing completeness is not a really good indicator of completeness. 2015-01-08T08:27:25Z H4ns: loke: format does lack things that would be useful to have, in practice. 2015-01-08T08:27:41Z loke: H4ns: fair enough, but if it was complete, it would be turing-complete (that said that not all turing-complete formatting syntaxes are good) 2015-01-08T08:28:16Z Shinmera: I'm not sure that I'd like format to become even messier than it already is. 2015-01-08T08:28:19Z loke: H4ns: Well of course. Having support for english cardinals is cool, but localisation support would be nice 2015-01-08T08:28:19Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:29:48Z H4ns: (format nil "~8,2,,,'0F" -1) => "000-1.00" is useless, too 2015-01-08T08:30:06Z loke: H4ns: what does that do? 2015-01-08T08:30:28Z H4ns: loke: it puts the sign into the wrong place, and there is no way to fix that using format. 2015-01-08T08:30:43Z mrkkrp: has anyone worked on real, hardware lisp machine? it there good emulators of lisp machines of the past? 2015-01-08T08:30:44Z Shinmera: loke: IIRC Naggum had a rant about people who complained that there was no localisation support. Trying to find it. 2015-01-08T08:31:02Z mrkkrp: loke: it doesn't work with irregular plural forms too mouse -> mice 2015-01-08T08:32:25Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:32:46Z mrkkrp: although it's a bit different thing 2015-01-08T08:32:58Z Shinmera: loke: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3283921000001843KL2065E@naggum.no.html 2015-01-08T08:33:47Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-08T08:34:01Z loke: Shinmera: Lots of his rants were good, but this one was seriously missing the mark 2015-01-08T08:34:50Z Shinmera: I don't know. Format seems the wrong tool to worry about localisation issues to me. 2015-01-08T08:35:44Z Shinmera: It's convenient that it has that stuff for English, but anything that really needs localisation should probably use things that are better suited for that task. 2015-01-08T08:35:53Z loke: Shinmera: Well _that_ is actually true. 2015-01-08T08:38:35Z rtra quit (Quit: "") 2015-01-08T08:38:56Z billitch quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-08T08:42:59Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:44:44Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: ohi 2015-01-08T08:45:22Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: I suspect I've found a bug in one of your more prominent github repositories 2015-01-08T08:51:01Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:53:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:53:21Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-01-08T08:58:22Z pacon joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:07:25Z Grue`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T09:07:45Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2015-01-08T09:10:01Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T09:15:07Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T09:15:33Z frkout joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:18:09Z cmatei joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:24:47Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:27:54Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:28:35Z fantazo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:33:07Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:38:03Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T09:39:22Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T09:40:29Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T09:43:38Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T09:44:08Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:45:22Z Natch_c joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:45:52Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T09:46:10Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T09:46:26Z stassats joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:47:44Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T09:48:56Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T09:49:06Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:49:34Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T09:50:35Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:51:58Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T09:53:44Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T09:54:42Z nee joined #lisp 2015-01-08T10:00:10Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-08T10:00:18Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-08T10:00:38Z Natch_c left #lisp 2015-01-08T10:00:47Z Natch joined #lisp 2015-01-08T10:01:28Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T10:01:41Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T10:02:37Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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If you look at code from KMP it usually uses SETQ while modern texts about CL uses SETF. Is that a conscious change that I have missed, or just a peculiarity of my perception? 2015-01-08T11:56:44Z stassats: setq is just not needed 2015-01-08T11:57:15Z eudoxia: i think it was Xach who said, "using setq is just signalling that you've been lisping for years" 2015-01-08T11:57:35Z Cymew: stassats: Well strictly speaking, nothing but SET is. Right? 2015-01-08T11:57:47Z stassats: not right 2015-01-08T11:58:09Z Cymew: eudoxia: That was my first thought, a change of common habit. 2015-01-08T11:58:34Z Cymew: stassats: ok, it was a few years I tried to entangle which one you built the others out of... 2015-01-08T11:58:53Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T11:59:36Z jeaye joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:00:04Z jeaye left #lisp 2015-01-08T12:01:07Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T12:01:35Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:07:12Z Cymew: That makes me wonder if there are other such "old style" conventions. Hmm. 2015-01-08T12:09:36Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:09:56Z Hache joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:10:16Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:12:42Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:13:51Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:18:17Z sg|polyneikes quit (Quit: IRC for Sailfish 0.8) 2015-01-08T12:22:52Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:23:07Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:23:24Z Grue`: isn't setq still preferred style in emacs lisp? 2015-01-08T12:23:32Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:23:41Z stassats: emacs lisp isn't preferred 2015-01-08T12:24:07Z Grue`: but a lot of lispers use both 2015-01-08T12:25:19Z jdz: does emacs lisp have setf? 2015-01-08T12:25:54Z jackdaniel: jdz: yes 2015-01-08T12:25:55Z dim: setf is an autoloaded Lisp macro in `gv.el'. 2015-01-08T12:27:53Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:27:59Z jdz: looks like there's no reason to use setq in elisp as well 2015-01-08T12:28:44Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:28:47Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T12:28:55Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:29:29Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:29:36Z impulse quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-08T12:29:39Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:30:03Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:31:07Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-08T12:31:07Z rme quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T12:36:31Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:38:23Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T12:38:53Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:40:33Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:40:43Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T12:40:53Z the_real_intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:42:22Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T12:48:28Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:49:15Z rme quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T12:49:45Z capcar joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:51:08Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:51:56Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:54:31Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-08T12:56:21Z the_real_intinig is now known as intinig 2015-01-08T13:01:46Z brent80_plow quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:04:33Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:04:46Z brent80_plow joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:04:54Z pjb: Bicyclidine: only when *print-readably* is true. 2015-01-08T13:05:24Z pjb: Bicyclidine: does print-object need to print something that can be read. 2015-01-08T13:06:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:06:51Z EvW quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T13:06:56Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T13:07:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:08:21Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:09:57Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:11:02Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:11:06Z Guest49442 is now known as Ragnaroek 2015-01-08T13:11:28Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:12:39Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:14:27Z ryonagana joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:14:43Z birk joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:15:17Z lonjil quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:16:34Z doomlord_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T13:17:30Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-08T13:18:06Z theos joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:19:25Z birk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:21:03Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:21:51Z hugod quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:23:00Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:23:05Z hugod joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:23:30Z s00pcan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T13:23:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:24:52Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:27:10Z doomlord_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:29:34Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:29:49Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-08T13:29:49Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2015-01-08T13:32:23Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:35:15Z pjb joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:36:01Z hugod quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:36:36Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T13:37:38Z pjb: PuercoPop: there's always a format specifier to do anything you want to do! (format nil "~{--~8,' /format-prefix/--~%~}" '("a long string" "short")) 2015-01-08T13:37:44Z pjb: PuercoPop: http://paste.lisp.org/+33YY 2015-01-08T13:38:19Z pjb: loke: format is turing complete, thanks to ~/ 2015-01-08T13:38:20Z arpunk joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:39:01Z pranavrc quit 2015-01-08T13:39:02Z pjb: H4ns: format is extensible, therefore it cannot lack anything. 2015-01-08T13:40:01Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: activity destroyed by unknown existence) 2015-01-08T13:40:23Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:40:32Z gabriel_laddel quit (Changing host) 2015-01-08T13:40:32Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:40:34Z pjb: H4ns: (format nil "~/htcpcp:make-coffee/" '(:latte :chocolate (:sugar 3))) --> "your coffee is ready, room 101, second coffee machine." 2015-01-08T13:42:24Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T13:43:27Z stassats: is this supposed to be a joke? 2015-01-08T13:43:35Z hugod joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:43:36Z stassats: to a yesterday's discussions? 2015-01-08T13:43:41Z Hexstream: pjb: That is not extensibility, that is an escape hatch. Extensibility means you can make extensions that are so well-integrated as to be indistinguishable from built-ins. 2015-01-08T13:44:03Z pjb: stassats: it wasn't yesterday, it was this morning. 2015-01-08T13:44:23Z pjb: "~{--~8,' /format-prefix/--~%~}" is pretty indistinguishable to me. 2015-01-08T13:44:26Z stassats: that doesn't make your response any less silly 2015-01-08T13:44:37Z Hexstream: It is eminently distinguishable. 2015-01-08T13:45:03Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:45:07Z pjb: Hexstream: and the question of PuercoPop is not whether it's indistinguishable, it's how to print strings by truncating them when too long for the field. 2015-01-08T13:45:25Z Hexstream: pjb: You said FORMAT is extensible. It isn't. 2015-01-08T13:46:46Z Ragnaroek_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:47:40Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:48:30Z pjb: It is, and in more than one way! 2015-01-08T13:48:54Z pjb: format control n. a format string, or a function that obeys the argument conventions for a function returned by the formatter macro. See Section 22.2.1.3 (Compiling Format Strings). 2015-01-08T13:48:54Z pjb: 2015-01-08T13:49:11Z pjb: So you can also pass a function instead of the format string, to do whatever you want! 2015-01-08T13:50:52Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:51:34Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T13:52:37Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T13:52:41Z Ragnaroek_ is now known as Ragnaroek 2015-01-08T13:53:43Z Hexstream: That's wholesale bypass and replacement from scratch, not extension. Your "creative" arguments are unimpressive and counter-productive. 2015-01-08T13:54:07Z pjb: Cymew: there is indeed various styles. I correlate them mostly to the kind of terminals/user interfaces used by programmers. The punch-card style is very distinct from the teletype style, which is also distinct from the 80x25 video terminal, which is also quite distinct from the big bitmap GUI style. 2015-01-08T13:54:49Z pjb: Hexstream: It gave a fucking solution to PuercoPop problem, which answerers failed to do earlier! 2015-01-08T13:55:00Z pjb: Therefore my theory is a better theory! 2015-01-08T13:55:18Z stassats: did you forget to take your pills or something? 2015-01-08T13:55:29Z gingerale joined #lisp 2015-01-08T13:57:25Z pjb: Cymew: but beside the influence of user interface to programming style, there are also the influences of libraries and notions taking more importance in the language. So nowadays, you'd see (RPLACA k a) displaced by (setf (car k) a). (But notice that their results are different, so rplaca can still be useful sometimes). 2015-01-08T13:58:05Z wgslayer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T13:59:11Z Shinmera: Here's my new turing complete language: It has one instruction, which is to run a binary from disc. 2015-01-08T13:59:16Z Shinmera: Man, I never knew it was that easy! 2015-01-08T13:59:24Z pjb: it's even easier: cmov 2015-01-08T14:01:02Z pjb: and indeed, I worked with a computer once, where the boot sequence was read from the terminal, and what we usually input was a single instruction (an ascii string whose binary was stored at address 0 and then executed), which was exactly that: load the first disk sector at the address 0. 2015-01-08T14:02:02Z pjb: It was an ICL System 25: http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/fixed_pages/icl_system_25.html 2015-01-08T14:02:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:09:46Z tesuji joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:10:37Z rme joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:12:18Z mrkkrp: pjb, interesting, on which else old machines have you worked? 2015-01-08T14:14:33Z stassats: old machines are off-topic here 2015-01-08T14:14:47Z pjb: In 1982, I wrote a few assembler and cobol programs on IBM 3031, and on a CII DPS-7. In that site, they still had an CII Iris-80 which was a wonderful computer (bi-processor, with two consoles), but I didn't had the chance of using it. In the Iris-80 computer room there were piles of damaged discreete components electronic boards along the windows :-) 2015-01-08T14:16:07Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:19:18Z towodo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:24:09Z faheem_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T14:24:42Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:30:34Z oleo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:30:50Z PuercoPop: pjb: I didn't know format could escape to any function. 2015-01-08T14:30:51Z Guest59669: i am not googling much on an iris 80 computer 2015-01-08T14:31:09Z PuercoPop: wasamasa: was it a bug affter all? 2015-01-08T14:31:40Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: well, I'm not sure, would like to discuss that on #emacs 2015-01-08T14:32:19Z PuercoPop: ok, i'll go there in 30 and ping you 2015-01-08T14:33:04Z Cymew: pjb: Thanks for your insights. I have personally used RPLACA, but using a SETF setter might be a more modern idiom. I had not thought about that one. 2015-01-08T14:34:01Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:34:17Z Guest59669: the icl system 25 was used up to 1992! 2015-01-08T14:34:18Z Guest59669: wow 2015-01-08T14:34:37Z hlavaty: Xach: hi, there is a webpage showing compilation or test results for all systems in quicklisp somewhere (i am sure i saw it some time ago); do you happen to know the url? 2015-01-08T14:34:41Z Guest59669: those were the days where comptuers lasted 10 years or more 2015-01-08T14:35:07Z Hexstream: hlavaty: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/ 2015-01-08T14:35:57Z Hexstream: Well, I think there's also a quicklisp-specific thing but I don't remember the URL. 2015-01-08T14:35:59Z hlavaty: Hexstream: thanks that's the one! 2015-01-08T14:36:00Z p_l: e/25 2015-01-08T14:36:02Z p_l: oops 2015-01-08T14:36:22Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: hmm, I'm afraid I'll be on the road in ten minutes, so it will take a bit longer for me to respond 2015-01-08T14:36:34Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: alternatively I'll just go for a /query 2015-01-08T14:36:58Z hlavaty: Hexstream: what is the idea behind http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/test-runs-report.html ? 2015-01-08T14:37:16Z hlavaty: it has just a few systems in that table 2015-01-08T14:37:42Z Hexstream: hlavaty: I'm not affiliated with that project, so I don't have any great insights à priori. 2015-01-08T14:37:43Z wasamasa: PuercoPop: and send you a private message in an hour I guess 2015-01-08T14:37:55Z Shinmera: hlavaty: Those are the machines/setups that ran tests 2015-01-08T14:38:56Z Shinmera: hlavaty: There's a different page that lists all the systems. 2015-01-08T14:39:11Z hlavaty: Shinmera: and by what criteria are the systems in the table columns selected? 2015-01-08T14:39:20Z Shinmera: beats me 2015-01-08T14:39:54Z Shinmera: You'll probably want http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/ 2015-01-08T14:40:05Z jeaye joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:40:11Z hlavaty: Shinmera: yes, thanks 2015-01-08T14:40:13Z jeaye left #lisp 2015-01-08T14:40:31Z Shinmera: First link on the github project page. 2015-01-08T14:41:59Z Shinmera is still greatly bothered that a lot of the setups that are used for testing don't actually have ASDF3 2015-01-08T14:43:29Z Hexstream: hlavaty: The projects in the test-runs-report.html table seem to be the most popular ones according to quicklisp download statistics (not regularly available) in decreasing order of popularity. 2015-01-08T14:43:48Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:43:53Z hlavaty: Hexstream: great, thank you! 2015-01-08T14:44:16Z thawes joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:45:20Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:45:22Z Shinmera: I should set up a VM to run cl-test-grid myself some day. 2015-01-08T14:45:40Z Shinmera: Last time I tried it it took longer than I wanted to stay up for, so I had to abort. 2015-01-08T14:47:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:53:28Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-01-08T14:53:52Z pnpuff left #lisp 2015-01-08T14:56:07Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T15:00:42Z tristero joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:02:03Z stepnem joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:03:46Z pjb: Guest59669: http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/iris80/iris80.htm 2015-01-08T15:04:29Z Guest59669: aha! sweet, thanks for that. i love reading about really cool old tech. 2015-01-08T15:08:17Z nikki93 quit 2015-01-08T15:14:11Z adlai quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-08T15:15:17Z nyef joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:15:43Z nyef: G'morning all. 2015-01-08T15:17:12Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-01-08T15:17:13Z Ainieco joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:17:15Z Ainieco: hello 2015-01-08T15:18:06Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:18:20Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:18:36Z pjb: Guest59669: a nice picture of the iris80 console (two screens!): http://www.technosaure.com/sites/technosaure.com/files/imagecache/scan_page/iris60.jpg 2015-01-08T15:18:40Z Ainieco: is :use withing defpackage is akin of C #include? i'm thinking so because i can call unqualified function from package A in package B without having to (:use :A) in B 2015-01-08T15:18:42Z pjb: despite the file name. 2015-01-08T15:19:00Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T15:19:01Z Guest59669: woo, that is cool 2015-01-08T15:19:01Z pjb: Ainieco: it's very different from #include. 2015-01-08T15:19:10Z Guest59669: thank you kindly btw :) 2015-01-08T15:19:34Z pjb: Ainieco: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:include for a simili #include 2015-01-08T15:19:45Z Ainieco: pjb: it doesn't look like it's different because of my second sentence 2015-01-08T15:19:56Z Ainieco: pjb: i don't look for simili 2015-01-08T15:20:04Z Ainieco: just wondoring why it does that 2015-01-08T15:20:11Z pjb: #include is a textual inclusion, copying the source. 2015-01-08T15:20:36Z ahungry_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:21:07Z pjb: use-package (which is the underlying function of defpackage :use) only lists the used package as used by the using package, so that symbols exported by the used package may be referenced unqualified when interned in the using package. 2015-01-08T15:21:24Z pjb: Most notably, using a package can be undone with unuse-package. 2015-01-08T15:21:43Z pjb: But once you've compiled the text "#included", you cannot uncompile it. 2015-01-08T15:22:14Z Ainieco: pjb: C uses A, B uses C, B is able to call functions from A unqualified 2015-01-08T15:22:33Z pjb: No. 2015-01-08T15:22:57Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:23:01Z pjb: What could allow that, is if B exports symbols that it obtained from A. 2015-01-08T15:23:34Z Ainieco: pjb: it does not reexports these symbols, let me make minimal example 2015-01-08T15:23:51Z pjb: (defpackage "A" (:use) (:export "AA")) (defpackage "B" (:use "A") (:export "BB")) (defpackage "C" (:use "B")) (in-package "C") (eql a:aa 'a) --> NIL 2015-01-08T15:23:55Z Hexstream: clhs 11 2015-01-08T15:23:56Z specbot: Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_.htm 2015-01-08T15:24:00Z pjb: (eql 'a:aa 'a) --> NIL 2015-01-08T15:27:18Z adlai joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:29:28Z faheem_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:30:14Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2015-01-08T15:31:41Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:39:37Z tadni is now known as youlysses 2015-01-08T15:39:49Z youlysses is now known as tadni 2015-01-08T15:41:12Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:41:26Z Lowl3v3l quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T15:43:46Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T15:44:23Z Ainieco: pjb: ah, sorry, looks like it was a fluke during work with slime(somthing evaluated got out of sync with source code) 2015-01-08T15:45:16Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T15:46:56Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:47:21Z Lowl3v3l quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T15:47:49Z stardiviner quit (Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/) 2015-01-08T15:53:27Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2015-01-08T15:55:13Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-08T15:58:40Z Xach: hlavaty: i don't have anything like that. i think cl-test-grid might do it. 2015-01-08T15:58:50Z Xach: hlavaty: i have begun generating reports, but only for failures 2015-01-08T16:01:18Z hlavaty: Xach: ok thanks. i already got url for cl-test-grid. i found something on http://report.quicklisp.org/ but that was a dead end 2015-01-08T16:01:31Z Xach: hlavaty: report.quicklisp.org is the thing with failures only 2015-01-08T16:01:44Z hlavaty: yeah, but it is not browsable 2015-01-08T16:01:52Z hlavaty: browseable 2015-01-08T16:02:23Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-08T16:04:09Z nyef: Xach: The meetup is tonight, right? 2015-01-08T16:04:32Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:04:50Z Xach: nyef: yes. no cancellation for sub-zero temperatures. 2015-01-08T16:04:57Z nyef: Okay, where was it again? 2015-01-08T16:05:05Z Xach: mary chung, 6pm 2015-01-08T16:05:06Z oleo is now known as Guest72807 2015-01-08T16:05:19Z Xach: hlavaty: http://report.quicklisp.org/index.html 2015-01-08T16:05:19Z nyef: Okay, that's what I thought, but was having trouble finding it in the logs. 2015-01-08T16:05:30Z Xach: hlavaty: i have to set the index document settings properly in S3 2015-01-08T16:05:39Z Guest72807 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:05:46Z nyef: Thank you. 2015-01-08T16:06:07Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:06:42Z zadock joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:08:07Z Xach: nyef: not on boston-lisp? 2015-01-08T16:09:00Z nyef: Apparently not. 2015-01-08T16:09:23Z nyef: What's the list management url? 2015-01-08T16:09:55Z Xach: http://mailman.common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/boston-lisp 2015-01-08T16:10:41Z nyef: Thank you. 2015-01-08T16:10:48Z hlavaty: Xach: thank you 2015-01-08T16:12:31Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-08T16:13:00Z mrkkrp quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-08T16:13:15Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:13:32Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2015-01-08T16:15:30Z dlowe: Xach: so you aren't still stranded on the train, then 2015-01-08T16:16:34Z Xach: i finally made it to the office 2015-01-08T16:16:44Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T16:16:44Z Xach: only a few hours late 2015-01-08T16:17:31Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:18:34Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:19:13Z dlowe: I'll be there 2015-01-08T16:19:42Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:20:27Z theseb joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:20:59Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T16:21:21Z Xach: dlowe: cool 2015-01-08T16:23:39Z theseb: Xach: you were on Hacker News web site 2015-01-08T16:23:50Z theseb: recently 2015-01-08T16:26:24Z nee quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T16:29:08Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:31:10Z salv0 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-08T16:32:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:33:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:33:47Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T16:34:04Z pjb: Xach: do you run a specific test target? 'asdf:test-op ? 2015-01-08T16:36:06Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T16:37:14Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:38:12Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:39:26Z jdz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:39:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T16:43:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:44:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-08T16:47:03Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-08T16:51:07Z zeitue joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:51:47Z ejbs joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:52:48Z ejbs: In C an array is set up contigously (sp?) in memory, does any Lisp implementations do the same to for example vectors of fixnums? 2015-01-08T16:52:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:53:24Z stassats: ejbs: of course it's contiguous 2015-01-08T16:53:29Z dlowe: They can, but I don't think memory layout is guaranteed. 2015-01-08T16:54:03Z nyef: Memory layout is absolutely not guaranteed, except that arrays are stored in "row-major order", but that's more a constraint on indexing. 2015-01-08T16:54:04Z jdz: and why does that matter in absence of pointers? 2015-01-08T16:54:33Z stassats: sanity usually implies that it's contiguous 2015-01-08T16:55:28Z jdz: i might imagine scenarios where adjustable arrays are not contiguous 2015-01-08T16:55:50Z ejbs: stassats: Sorry for asking to you obvious questions, I don't know that much about this stuff and I'm very curious 2015-01-08T16:56:05Z ejbs: (didn't mean to sound passive aggressive) 2015-01-08T16:56:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2015-01-08T16:57:09Z ejbs: dlowe: nyef: Right, so it probably is but don't assume such a thing 2015-01-08T16:57:53Z ejbs: If I have an array of structure-objects, then will the elements be pointers to those objects or the actual objects? I guess the pointers but I don't know 2015-01-08T16:58:05Z nyef: I might imagine scenarios where "arrays" turn out to be hash tables with integer keys. 2015-01-08T16:58:09Z stassats: ejbs: pointers 2015-01-08T16:58:10Z ejbs: I guess these questions don't make no sense because you can't be general about it 2015-01-08T16:58:15Z Ainieco: is there built in hash set? currently i have list of uniq data and i'd like to remove stuff from there quickly 2015-01-08T16:58:28Z stassats: there are hashtables 2015-01-08T16:58:28Z nyef: clhs remove-duplicates 2015-01-08T16:58:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm 2015-01-08T16:58:47Z nyef: Hrm. Oh, it's already unique? 2015-01-08T16:59:23Z ejbs: stassats: Alright. In theory there could be performance gains in storing the actual objects, right? Since you don't need to dereference anything I mean 2015-01-08T16:59:25Z stassats: removing from lists is O(1) 2015-01-08T16:59:48Z nyef: Finding the item to remove is O(n). 2015-01-08T17:00:22Z stassats: ejbs: in practice too 2015-01-08T17:00:36Z Ainieco: stassats: its possible to do hash set on top of hash table like "object --id--> object" but is there some library or builtin thing? 2015-01-08T17:01:11Z ejbs: stassats: Is it possible to do something like that with SBCLs internals and say to the GC like "these objects will be permanent, you don't need to care about them"? 2015-01-08T17:01:33Z pjb: ejbs: you can know the answer to your question by asking: (upgraded-array-element-type 'your-structure-type). If it answers T, then the array is not specialized, and therefore the objects will be stored "outside" of the array. 2015-01-08T17:02:13Z stassats: ejbs: "permanent" objects can point to ephemeral objects 2015-01-08T17:03:44Z stassats: Ainieco: do you want hashtables? 2015-01-08T17:03:44Z nyef: The problem with telling the GC "don't worry about these objects" is telling it "but still scan them for references to the heap" unless you put the objects in static space. 2015-01-08T17:04:22Z ejbs: stassats: So you could still screw up and the GC would accidently clean up objects who are still in use, right. 2015-01-08T17:04:41Z Ainieco: stassats: i want hash set 2015-01-08T17:04:48Z stassats: Ainieco: what is that? 2015-01-08T17:04:56Z beach joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:05:04Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2015-01-08T17:05:19Z ejbs: pjb: stassats: nyef: Thanks guys, much appreciated :-) 2015-01-08T17:05:20Z nyef: Hello beach. 2015-01-08T17:05:49Z Ainieco: stassats: it's a set implemented on top of hashtable making search as efficient as in hash table 2015-01-08T17:06:09Z stassats: search isn't efficient in hash tables 2015-01-08T17:06:13Z nyef: So, it's a hashtable where the keys and the values are the same object? 2015-01-08T17:06:27Z stassats: lookup is 2015-01-08T17:06:34Z Ainieco: stassats: i'm not saying it is, i'm saying as efficient as in hash table 2015-01-08T17:06:42Z stassats: so, inefficient? 2015-01-08T17:06:54Z Ainieco: stassats: O(1) 2015-01-08T17:07:29Z beach: nyef: Thanks for the help with FFI. It turned out quite well. 2015-01-08T17:07:41Z nyef: beach: Good to hear. 2015-01-08T17:08:00Z nyef: Ainieco: No, that's lookup, not search. 2015-01-08T17:08:18Z nyef: And the constant factors can be a pain. 2015-01-08T17:08:40Z stassats: Ainieco: maybe you can describe what you're trying to solve with this? 2015-01-08T17:08:47Z ejbs: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/HashSet.html so this? 2015-01-08T17:08:52Z Ainieco: stassats: nyef: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/look+up 2015-01-08T17:09:11Z Ainieco: lookup is synonym for search 2015-01-08T17:09:16Z beach: nyef: If you are interested in what I did, there is 70 lines of code in the directory Papers/Reverse-order/Code/Count/FFI in the SICL repository. 2015-01-08T17:09:26Z stassats: why didn't you use "hunt for" then? 2015-01-08T17:09:30Z Ainieco: ejbs: yes, as i said 2015-01-08T17:09:46Z Ainieco: stassats: why should i? 2015-01-08T17:10:05Z Ainieco: i had to pick one and that was search, get over it 2015-01-08T17:10:38Z stassats: it happens to refer to another algorithm, but i guess communicating your intentions clearly isn't on the agenda 2015-01-08T17:10:54Z jdz: Ainieco: do you search for words in a dictionary, or look up words in a dictionary? 2015-01-08T17:11:13Z Ainieco: stassats: sorry for making you confused 2015-01-08T17:11:13Z bb010g quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T17:12:15Z PuercoPop: Ainieco: that they are synonyms in some contexts doesn't mean they are synonyms in any context. It seems it is you who is confused here. 2015-01-08T17:12:16Z beach: nyef: Also, section 3.4 in the paper itself explains the purpose. 2015-01-08T17:12:24Z Ainieco: jdz: stassats i just have a list of unique integers and i want to find and remove integers from there quickly, list is bad for that 2015-01-08T17:12:53Z ejbs: Ainieco: Just use a hash table directly then? 2015-01-08T17:12:54Z jdz: Ainieco: depends on how many integers you have 2015-01-08T17:12:58Z stassats: is it ordered? is it contiguous? 2015-01-08T17:13:18Z Ainieco: jdz: enough to want to replace it :) 2015-01-08T17:13:55Z jdz: Ainieco: are you sure hash set is better than a tree? 2015-01-08T17:14:23Z Ainieco: guys, thanks, i got it, there is no hash set in cl and i gotta implement one 2015-01-08T17:14:25Z beach: Ainieco: When you say "find" integers, what are the arguments to that "find" function? 2015-01-08T17:14:58Z stassats: Ainieco: let's start again, how different is your hash set from hashtables? 2015-01-08T17:15:00Z ehu joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:15:02Z stassats: is it ordered? 2015-01-08T17:15:08Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:15:12Z Ainieco: stassats: different in interface 2015-01-08T17:15:13Z jdz: also, what's the range of the integers? 2015-01-08T17:15:26Z Lowl3v3l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T17:15:35Z Ainieco: jdz: unsigned whatever sbcl uses for integer 2015-01-08T17:15:49Z Ainieco: beach: (find x set) 2015-01-08T17:15:53Z Lowl3v3l joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:16:01Z jdz: Ainieco: integers are limited by available memory in Lisp 2015-01-08T17:16:06Z beach: Ainieco: And it just answers T or NIL? 2015-01-08T17:16:20Z stassats: Ainieco: different interface? then hashtables are it 2015-01-08T17:16:52Z stassats: setf gethash to insert, gethash to lookup, remhash to remove 2015-01-08T17:16:55Z Ainieco: stassats: that doesn't make sense, how can it be different and at same time not lol 2015-01-08T17:17:04Z stassats: O(1) amortized 2015-01-08T17:17:20Z stassats: Ainieco: because the interface doesn't matter 2015-01-08T17:17:35Z stassats: if it has the algorithmic properties you desire 2015-01-08T17:17:50Z stassats: which you're not willing to disclose, hence this prolonged poking in the dark 2015-01-08T17:18:16Z Ainieco: > 20:06 < Ainieco> stassats: O(1) 2015-01-08T17:18:35Z pjb: - 2015-01-08T17:18:37Z Ainieco: stassats: no need to waste more time on this, i understood what i wanted, thank you 2015-01-08T17:19:05Z stassats: and you wanted hashtables? 2015-01-08T17:19:07Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:19:16Z rme left #lisp 2015-01-08T17:19:29Z Ainieco: nope, i wanted hash set 2015-01-08T17:19:36Z ejbs: lol omg 2015-01-08T17:19:38Z stassats: wellll 2015-01-08T17:19:53Z stassats: Ainieco: are you sure? 2015-01-08T17:19:54Z ejbs: A hash set uses a hashtable(!!!) 2015-01-08T17:20:04Z stassats: do you want the difference between hashtables and hashsets? 2015-01-08T17:20:10Z stassats: do you know, that is 2015-01-08T17:20:14Z Ainieco: ejbs: that's known thing 2015-01-08T17:20:45Z stassats: hashtables in cl provide you: an unordered set of values with O(1) amortized lookup, insertion and removal 2015-01-08T17:20:48Z Ainieco: stassats: as i said, interface, how much more do you want me to repeat that? :) 2015-01-08T17:21:05Z ejbs: Ainieco: Just make it yourself then. Stop pussy footing around 2015-01-08T17:21:13Z ejbs: (is that an expression in English?) 2015-01-08T17:21:16Z stassats: Ainieco: 0 times, because it's not a difference 2015-01-08T17:21:33Z Ainieco: ejbs: well, it's good that you said that after i said some thing half our ago, good boy 2015-01-08T17:21:39Z drmeister: I've run into a problem with hash-tables and moving garbage collection - I wonder if someone could check my thinking. 2015-01-08T17:21:52Z beach: drmeister: Shoot! :) 2015-01-08T17:21:56Z jasom: ejbs: it's an expression; I'm not sure you're using it right though; it roughly means "stop avoiding the thing you're trying to not talk about" 2015-01-08T17:21:56Z drmeister: If I add a key/value pair to an #'EQ hash-table and then the hash-table gets its pointers updated then the pointers are all stale. 2015-01-08T17:21:57Z Ainieco: stassats: interface is the difference :) 2015-01-08T17:21:59Z stassats: now, if you have contiguous integers, you can use bit-vectors 2015-01-08T17:22:17Z stassats: Ainieco: can expand? how exactly is it different 2015-01-08T17:22:25Z ejbs: jasom: Aah, ok. Thanks 2015-01-08T17:22:43Z hekmek joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:23:02Z drmeister: Then I add the same key with a different value - it will not hash to the same index as the original original key. 2015-01-08T17:23:05Z Ainieco: stassats: i don't have to relate to objects i want to stroe two times: once for key and once for value 2015-01-08T17:23:12Z drmeister: I need to rehash at that point - right? 2015-01-08T17:23:23Z Ainieco: stassats: could you please expand on bit vectors, sounds interesting? 2015-01-08T17:23:26Z EvW joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:23:32Z Alfr joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:23:34Z jasom: drmeister: that's an implementation choice; #'eq tables don't have to use pointers 2015-01-08T17:23:40Z Ainieco: i'm not really familiar with bit vectors, sorry 2015-01-08T17:24:10Z drmeister: jasom: Interesting, what alternative is there? 2015-01-08T17:24:33Z stassats: drmeister: if you move the thing that is hashed, you need to rehash 2015-01-08T17:24:38Z jdz: Ainieco: that's because you pretend to know what you want, and don't answer to questions 2015-01-08T17:24:47Z beach: drmeister: Yes, if you use the address as a hash value you need to reorganize the table after a GC. 2015-01-08T17:25:10Z stassats: Ainieco: so, a hashtable will give you exactly what you want 2015-01-08T17:25:12Z Bicyclidine: (defun hash-find (elem hashtable) (nth-value 1 (gethash elem hashtable))), etc. whoa 2015-01-08T17:26:02Z beach: Bicyclidine: The discourse of Ainieco sounds like he has already decided that Common Lisp doesn't have what he wants. 2015-01-08T17:26:04Z jasom: drmeister: you can have a table of weak referrences to all alocated objects and use the index in that table for eq. I'm not saying that's a good idea, but it's possible 2015-01-08T17:26:19Z Bicyclidine: beach: optimism! 2015-01-08T17:26:25Z Ainieco: jdz: can you back that claim up, i believe you just said i don't know what i want, but I do and it proved by me asking about hash sets(object of desire) 2015-01-08T17:26:28Z drmeister: jasom: Good to know - I probably don't want to do that though. 2015-01-08T17:26:35Z beach: Bicyclidine: On your part. Yes. 2015-01-08T17:26:42Z Bicyclidine: that's how i roll 2015-01-08T17:26:45Z Ainieco: stassats: nope, it want give me desired interface 2015-01-08T17:26:51Z jdz: Ainieco: i asked what's the range of the integers, and your answer did not make any sense 2015-01-08T17:26:52Z Ainieco: won't* 2015-01-08T17:26:58Z stassats: Ainieco: yes it will 2015-01-08T17:27:02Z jasom: Ainieco: what interface do you want 2015-01-08T17:27:04Z Bicyclidine: (defun hash-set (elem hashtable) (setf (gethash elem hashtable) t)) 2015-01-08T17:27:07Z Bicyclidine: interface done 2015-01-08T17:27:12Z stassats: Ainieco: why are you asking questions if you don't want the answers? 2015-01-08T17:27:31Z Ainieco: stassats: it's you who continues to asking questions :) 2015-01-08T17:27:42Z stassats: insert (setf (gethash x hash-table) t), lookup (gethash x hash-table), removal (remhash x hash-table) 2015-01-08T17:27:48Z drmeister: The weak-key-hash-table implementation that I was following doesn't appear to rehash the table in the event that I described if the search for the key the second time produces an unused entry in the hash-table - it just writes the key/value pair into it and then I have a duplicate entry in the hash-table. 2015-01-08T17:27:52Z stassats: Ainieco: because i don't want you coming away uninformed 2015-01-08T17:28:06Z Ainieco: stassats: i said 'no need to waste more time on this, i understood what i wanted, thank you' but you answered with 'and you wanted hashtables?' 2015-01-08T17:28:18Z sol__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T17:28:23Z ejbs: Later on reddit Ainieco will complain about how rude people on #lisp are (probably) 2015-01-08T17:28:28Z Ainieco: stassats: uninformed about what? 2015-01-08T17:28:34Z Ragnaroek quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T17:28:41Z Bicyclidine: about hash sets being trivial on top of hash tables 2015-01-08T17:28:41Z Oladon joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:28:43Z stassats: about your decision 2015-01-08T17:28:58Z beach: ejbs: Yes, and declare loud and clear that he HAS TO abandon Common Lisp because it doesn't have hash maps. 2015-01-08T17:29:00Z jasom: Ainieco: I don't think anybody has packaged this up as a library because the implementation is so trivial. 2015-01-08T17:29:03Z Ainieco: stassats: my decision is to implement hash set on top of hash table 2015-01-08T17:29:16Z Ainieco: stassats: whats wrong about it? 2015-01-08T17:29:25Z stassats: Ainieco: that requires zero lines of code 2015-01-08T17:29:36Z stassats: because a hash-table is already a hash-set 2015-01-08T17:29:44Z jasom: stassats: not for union/intersection, that requires like 5 lines 2015-01-08T17:30:25Z beach: jasom: But we can't know whether Ainieco wants that operation because he is not telling us what he wants. 2015-01-08T17:30:58Z Ainieco: jasom: yeah, but every line of code i need to maintain my self is a burden :) 2015-01-08T17:31:08Z Ainieco: jasom: less code you maintain = better 2015-01-08T17:31:45Z stassats: so, you want union and intersection now? 2015-01-08T17:31:52Z jdz: also, less code other people maintain that you have to keep up with = better 2015-01-08T17:32:24Z oudeis joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:32:40Z beach: nyef: How do you spell your first name? 2015-01-08T17:32:46Z scottj_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:32:51Z beach: [for the acknowledgments] 2015-01-08T17:33:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:33:31Z Ainieco: stassats: not now, now i just want good DRY interface for inserting, which requires some amount of code to be written, i don't want to sound inpolite but can we end this discussion because there 2015-01-08T17:33:34Z Ainieco: is clearly a misunderstanding? 2015-01-08T17:33:39Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T17:34:21Z stassats: Ainieco: hashtable has exactly the thing you're describing, no need to write any code 2015-01-08T17:36:34Z stassats: the only thing a hashset may have is an optimization, not needing to store the value, but your hashset on top of hash-tables can't achieve that 2015-01-08T17:36:49Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:36:56Z stassats: in fact, even if you write that hashset from scratch it is unlikely to be any more efficient than the built-in hashtables 2015-01-08T17:37:25Z thawes joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:38:29Z ggole: Ainieco: if you need sub-linear performance for union/intersection/etc, look for a data structure library (maybe fset) 2015-01-08T17:38:50Z ggole: hashsets won't give you that though. 2015-01-08T17:39:33Z Ainieco: ggole: thanks, but i don't see how ' i just want good DRY interface for inserting,' translates to 'i need sub-linear performance for union/intersection/etc' 2015-01-08T17:40:22Z Ainieco: because interface is the only difference between hash table and hash set 2015-01-08T17:40:26Z stassats: people are chiming in with all kinds of potentially different things trying to guess what you actually need 2015-01-08T17:41:10Z stassats: Ainieco: and turns out, there's no difference in the interface as well! 2015-01-08T17:41:44Z Oladon: Ainieco, I came in partway through this conversation, but it sounds like you haven't actually told these wonderful people what you're trying to do -- just what you think you need. 2015-01-08T17:42:06Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T17:42:28Z ggole: I've run into a problem with hash-tables and moving garbage collection - I wonder if someone could check my thinking. 2015-01-08T17:42:33Z ggole: There's an interesting paper on this 2015-01-08T17:42:39Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:42:40Z ggole: Generation-Friendly Eq Hash Tables 2015-01-08T17:42:53Z ggole: It's for scheme but attacks the same issue 2015-01-08T17:43:09Z Ainieco: Oladon: i did, 2 times at lease :) also i said that there is no need to continue thes discussion since i know what i'm going to do from now on :) 2015-01-08T17:43:14Z stassats: ggole: what can you do if the pointer changes? 2015-01-08T17:43:14Z Ainieco: also 2 times at least 2015-01-08T17:43:42Z wasamasa: Ainieco: but you do! 2015-01-08T17:43:45Z ggole: Lemme read the paper to refresh my memory - it's been a while since I looked at it 2015-01-08T17:43:51Z Ainieco: wasamasa: what i do? 2015-01-08T17:43:58Z wasamasa: Ainieco: you continue discussing! 2015-01-08T17:44:10Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:44:11Z Ainieco: wasamasa: people continue asking questions, i merely answering them 2015-01-08T17:44:17Z stassats: Ainieco: if you knew what you needed, you wouldn't ask the question, and when presented with an answer, you chose to ignore it 2015-01-08T17:44:27Z dkcl quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-08T17:44:30Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-01-08T17:44:41Z drmeister: ggole: Thanks - I'm reading the code and trying to figure out how to proceed. I see the problem but not the solution - yet. 2015-01-08T17:45:02Z ggole: stassats: looks like the trick is to only rehash values that are moved by the collector, rather than everything in a table 2015-01-08T17:45:22Z Ainieco: stassats: well, you ignored what said about interfaces multiple times and said there there in no difference without backing that up, how do you expect me to react to that? 2015-01-08T17:45:35Z ggole: They introduce an indirection ("link cell") for that 2015-01-08T17:45:43Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T17:45:55Z stassats: Ainieco: i showed you the interface two (at least) times 2015-01-08T17:45:58Z Nshag joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:46:03Z stassats: it's the same as the java thingy 2015-01-08T17:46:04Z drmeister: I have two implementations of hash-tables in Clasp - regular hash-tables work fine. This is a simpler implementation for weak-key-hash-tables where I followed an approach described in an example scheme that comes with MPS - I'm starting to think there is a bug in their implementation. 2015-01-08T17:46:12Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T17:46:25Z stassats: except, it's a different language with different names, i hope you don't see that as a difference 2015-01-08T17:47:02Z stassats: ggole: ok, so it just reduces rehashing, i thought it eliminated it altogether 2015-01-08T17:47:34Z ggole: I don't think that's possible without putting a unique cookie in the object header or something silly like that. 2015-01-08T17:47:52Z ggole: At least, I would be surprised to discover such an algorithm. 2015-01-08T17:48:21Z Ainieco: stassats: well, what you did show was interface of hash table which will require me to repeat myself to insert anything beacuse key = value, that's bad 2015-01-08T17:48:41Z stassats: no, key is not equal to value 2015-01-08T17:48:51Z stassats: if you don't want it to be, that is 2015-01-08T17:49:33Z scottj_ left #lisp 2015-01-08T17:49:41Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:49:55Z dkcl quit (Read error: No route to host) 2015-01-08T17:50:03Z dandersen joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:50:24Z Ainieco: stassats: in hash set it is equal which provides convenience over raw hash table beacuse i can just (insert x set) without having to (setf (gethash x hash) x) 2015-01-08T17:50:52Z stassats: it's (setf (gethash x hash) t) 2015-01-08T17:51:04Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T17:51:06Z Ainieco: that's really amazing how much time you and i are willing to waste on that topic, just wow 2015-01-08T17:51:23Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:51:24Z stassats: as much as needed for you to understand 2015-01-08T17:52:17Z Hache: XD 2015-01-08T17:52:43Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T17:52:51Z Ainieco: stassats: i really appreciate that, but i do understand what i want my hash set's interface to be and it's not the same with hash table's one :) 2015-01-08T17:52:56Z stassats: ggole: i can see a way: you have two equal and equally aligned memory regions, you only hash the low bits of addresses and upon movement move it to the same offset 2015-01-08T17:53:16Z stassats: ggole: now, of course there's a ton of problems with that too, like no compaction, etc., but a way nonetheless 2015-01-08T17:53:23Z Oladon: Ainieco: Have you heard of macros? 2015-01-08T17:53:38Z Ainieco: Oladon: yup, why? 2015-01-08T17:53:48Z stassats: Ainieco: no, it's the same, you just want to type a different thing 2015-01-08T17:53:55Z stassats: it has no relation to the interface 2015-01-08T17:54:27Z stassats: even if you wanted exactly the hashtable you could demand (insert x set value) instead of (setf gethash), that doesn't make the hashtables unsuitable 2015-01-08T17:54:54Z Ainieco: (insert x y) and (setf (gethash x y) x) are different i don't see how they are the same 2015-01-08T17:55:24Z Denommus joined #lisp 2015-01-08T17:55:51Z stassats: because insert would be (defun insert (key hash) (setf (gethash key hash) t)) 2015-01-08T17:55:55Z ggole: stassats: clever (but yeah, probematic) 2015-01-08T17:55:58Z stassats: which means, exactly the same 2015-01-08T17:56:09Z Ainieco: stassats: that's called different interface 2015-01-08T17:56:12Z nyef: beach: My first name is "Alastair". 2015-01-08T17:57:27Z stassats: Ainieco: it's still a hash-table with a different way to call setf gethash 2015-01-08T17:57:50Z Ainieco: stassats: yup, but interface is different and it's the point 2015-01-08T17:57:50Z stassats: and it's only required if you don't want to type 5 characters more, otherwise, it's not needed 2015-01-08T17:58:10Z stassats: you want it to be different, not because it needs to be different 2015-01-08T17:58:48Z Hache quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T17:59:01Z Ainieco: stassats: okay, i want it to different because i need it to be different because i don't want to type 5 characters more each time i use it 2015-01-08T17:59:09Z Ainieco: YAY we finally at agreement\ 2015-01-08T17:59:19Z xorox90 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-08T17:59:28Z stassats: so, you don't need hashsets after all, just hashtables 2015-01-08T17:59:37Z Ainieco: stassats: nope 2015-01-08T17:59:40Z wasamasa: lol 2015-01-08T17:59:46Z wasamasa: this is pretty amusing to watch 2015-01-08T17:59:49Z stassats: Ainieco: but you just said so 2015-01-08T17:59:50Z Ainieco: i need hashsets because of different interface 2015-01-08T17:59:57Z Ainieco: stassats: nope, i did not 2015-01-08T18:00:01Z stassats: but it's not a hashset, it's a hashtable 2015-01-08T18:00:09Z wasamasa: it's like Ainieco can't just ignore the implementation details 2015-01-08T18:00:13Z stassats: hashset would use a different datastructure 2015-01-08T18:00:15Z Ainieco: stassats: it's wrapper on hash set 2015-01-08T18:00:26Z Ainieco: stassats: it would not 2015-01-08T18:00:37Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T18:00:42Z stassats: of course it would, it can be done more efficiently 2015-01-08T18:00:53Z alpha-: would be quicker if they just published a snipped of code with expected interface 2015-01-08T18:01:05Z alpha-: and ask for optimum implementation that would satisfy the test case provided 2015-01-08T18:01:09Z stassats: and trivially, once you have the hashtable code 2015-01-08T18:01:09Z Oladon: wasamasa: I'm finding it more interesting than amusing 2015-01-08T18:01:45Z alpha-: Ainieco post some code 2015-01-08T18:01:50Z Ainieco: wrapper around hash table* 2015-01-08T18:02:02Z wasamasa: it's sort of like people who find out ruby's sets are actually hashtables and dislike them for that implementation detail 2015-01-08T18:02:12Z wasamasa: totally silly, but it happens 2015-01-08T18:02:28Z Oladon: wasamasa: ignoring the implementation details can be really difficult for a lot of people 2015-01-08T18:02:51Z alpha-: yes, if something is in php it's hard to accept. 2015-01-08T18:02:54Z stassats: so, from the beginning you asked if there's something like hashsets, and lo and behold, there is, just not with a syntax you want 2015-01-08T18:03:00Z Ainieco: wasamasa: that's breaking news to me, but i don't care about impl detail, it's stassats who do 2015-01-08T18:03:17Z Oladon: lol 2015-01-08T18:03:21Z stassats: if you don't care about implementation details, then you could use a list 2015-01-08T18:03:22Z Ainieco: stassats: interface, not syntax :) 2015-01-08T18:03:28Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:03:31Z Oladon: alpha-: Agreed... I was just about to say that it's not always bad... :P 2015-01-08T18:03:56Z stassats: Ainieco: no, the interface is the same, it's just typed differently 2015-01-08T18:03:58Z Ainieco: stassats: i could not because i care about O :) 2015-01-08T18:04:10Z Ainieco: stassats: that's funny 2015-01-08T18:04:17Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:04:37Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T18:04:38Z Ainieco: stassats: whatever, you won at time wasting, i can't do it anymore 2015-01-08T18:04:50Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2015-01-08T18:05:00Z alpha-: it is time wasting until you post the code which would show what interface you want 2015-01-08T18:05:06Z alpha-: with some real data 2015-01-08T18:05:30Z stassats: Ainieco: if it made you ask your questions in a better way, then it's not time wasted 2015-01-08T18:05:35Z Ainieco: alpha-: stassats already did it 2015-01-08T18:05:55Z stassats: and what do you know, maybe i'm practicing touch typing? 2015-01-08T18:06:03Z Oladon chuckles 2015-01-08T18:06:17Z Ainieco: stassats: ha-ha :) 2015-01-08T18:06:38Z stassats: Ainieco: now, for those bitvectors 2015-01-08T18:06:39Z wasamasa: Ainieco: I didn't see any pastebin-link by you yet 2015-01-08T18:06:54Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-08T18:07:06Z stassats: Ainieco: it's a contiguous set which stores binary data 2015-01-08T18:07:11Z Ainieco: stassats: i used gtypist when i practiced touch typing while ago, i recommend it 2015-01-08T18:07:24Z stassats: if your numbers are contiguous enough, you can use bit-vectors 2015-01-08T18:08:25Z stassats: no, for the (gasp) interface: (defun insert (integer set) (setf (sbit set integer) 1)) 2015-01-08T18:08:53Z stassats: no growing, although can be done with adjustable vectors, but you'll get the same performance as a hashtable then 2015-01-08T18:09:10Z jasom grumbles about adjustable vectors being slow in sbcl 2015-01-08T18:09:17Z stassats: (defun lookup (integer set) (plusp (sbit set integer))) 2015-01-08T18:09:40Z jasom: actually it's fill-pointer vectors that bug me the most performance wise 2015-01-08T18:09:41Z stassats: jasom: basically nothing can be done about that portably 2015-01-08T18:09:51Z jasom: stupid type system 2015-01-08T18:10:00Z stassats: jasom: since there's no separate type declaration 2015-01-08T18:10:13Z stassats: and fill-pointer, adjustable and displaced are all lumped together 2015-01-08T18:10:37Z jasom: sbcl *could* add a type for those and still be conforming, right? 2015-01-08T18:10:43Z stassats: sure 2015-01-08T18:10:53Z jasom: sbcl already has non-standard type declarations 2015-01-08T18:11:01Z jasom: e.g. the values declaration 2015-01-08T18:11:05Z stassats: but it's not as useful if it were portable 2015-01-08T18:11:14Z stassats: jasom: do you use that in your programs? 2015-01-08T18:11:28Z jasom: stassats: rarely 2015-01-08T18:11:56Z stassats: because it's useful for sbcl-only programs, otherwise #-sbcl (declaim (ftype)) would be silly 2015-01-08T18:12:01Z jasom: It's actually reasonable to use that if you are doing word-sized numeric code, since pretty much only cmucl derivatives do a great job optimizing that 2015-01-08T18:12:23Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:12:26Z jasom: so having the type declaration in e.g. ccl doesn't seem to affect performance much (at least 3 years ago when I tested it) 2015-01-08T18:12:53Z stassats: declaring return types won't help you here, because there still will be consing for the return value 2015-01-08T18:12:53Z sz0 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:12:57Z stassats: inling will help 2015-01-08T18:13:05Z Oddity joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:13:34Z lemonpepper24 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:14:04Z jasom: You're probably right; I wrote a PRNG a long time ago and that was the last time I tried to optimize word-sized numeric code 2015-01-08T18:14:08Z stassats: jasom: i just mean that values doesn't do anything that can't be done portable, so it's pretty useless, albeit cute 2015-01-08T18:14:41Z jasom: right 2015-01-08T18:14:54Z stassats: an adjustable vector declaration would be useful 2015-01-08T18:14:58Z jasom: and I can actually remember it; I still have to look up the ftype from time-to-time 2015-01-08T18:15:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: continuation ended by reoccurring something) 2015-01-08T18:15:34Z stassats: it's easy just like TYPE, but (ftype declaration name) 2015-01-08T18:15:34Z jasom: and a fill-pointer one; I have one project where I wrote a struct that was a vector and a fixnum that did all of the fill-pointer stuff and got almost a 2x speedup 2015-01-08T18:15:44Z stassats: now, it can be just (ftype function name) 2015-01-08T18:15:51Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T18:16:13Z jasom: I always reverse the return-type and arguments 2015-01-08T18:16:17Z stassats: function has additional parameters (function (arg1 arg2) (return1 return2)), pretty easy 2015-01-08T18:16:53Z jasom: I blame it on my C background 2015-01-08T18:17:14Z stassats: make that (value return1 return2) 2015-01-08T18:17:28Z jasom: aha, see, you got it wrong too :P 2015-01-08T18:17:37Z stassats: one thing that is confusing, that this means that the function returns at least two values, not two values 2015-01-08T18:17:53Z stassats: and returning one value is the most efficient thing 2015-01-08T18:18:10Z stassats: so, (function (arg1 arg2) (values just-one-return &optional)) 2015-01-08T18:18:23Z Ainieco quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-08T18:18:47Z jasom: why does the &optional have to be there? I always wondered that 2015-01-08T18:19:30Z stassats: to specify that it ends there 2015-01-08T18:19:41Z sheilong joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:19:50Z Ainieco joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:20:26Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2015-01-08T18:20:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:21:35Z stassats: but what does &allow-other-keys do? 2015-01-08T18:21:45Z stassats: it doesn't have &key... 2015-01-08T18:21:52Z tesuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T18:22:03Z admg joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:22:40Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:22:54Z rurumate: How to convert a list of characters to a string? 2015-01-08T18:23:03Z stassats: (coerce list 'string) 2015-01-08T18:23:27Z rurumate: Brilliant, thanks! 2015-01-08T18:23:51Z stassats: (coerce string 'list) for the reverse 2015-01-08T18:24:35Z stassats: another trick: (map 'string #'code-char '(65 66 67)) => "ABC" 2015-01-08T18:25:07Z stassats: beach: did you unlock what &allow-other-keys in VALUES means? 2015-01-08T18:25:09Z stassats: clhs values/t 2015-01-08T18:25:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_values.htm 2015-01-08T18:26:56Z stassats: clhs function/t 2015-01-08T18:26:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_fn.htm 2015-01-08T18:27:03Z stassats: "The &optional, &rest, &key, and &allow-other-keys markers can appear in" 2015-01-08T18:27:14Z stassats: and &allow-other-keys is not in the BNF description 2015-01-08T18:28:34Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T18:28:44Z stassats: maybe it ran away from the FUNCTION page to the VALUES page 2015-01-08T18:30:32Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:31:57Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:32:57Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-08T18:33:06Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-08T18:33:34Z Ainieco: can i define remove for my type(struct, so it look like (remove foo my-struct)) without violiting common-lisp package lock? 2015-01-08T18:33:52Z stassats: no 2015-01-08T18:33:56Z Ainieco: ok, thanks 2015-01-08T18:34:04Z stassats: remove is only for sequnces 2015-01-08T18:34:29Z stassats: guess what, you can have new sequences, but your "hashset" isn't exactly a sequence 2015-01-08T18:34:30Z Ainieco: stassats: can i make my struct a sequence in eyes of lisp? 2015-01-08T18:34:35Z stassats: not portably 2015-01-08T18:34:45Z pjb: Ainieco: yes. 2015-01-08T18:34:57Z Ainieco: stassats: portability doesn't matter in my case, i totally sold to sbcl 2015-01-08T18:35:03Z Ainieco: pjb: how? 2015-01-08T18:35:06Z pjb: (defstruct (your-struct (:type vector #|or list|#)) field1 field2) 2015-01-08T18:35:16Z pjb: perfectly conforming. 2015-01-08T18:35:18Z stassats: Ainieco: it has extensible sequences, but that doesn't fit very well 2015-01-08T18:35:29Z stassats: pjb: and perfectly misses the mark 2015-01-08T18:36:04Z stassats: Ainieco: because now, the interface is truly different 2015-01-08T18:36:38Z jasom: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Extensible-Sequences 2015-01-08T18:37:05Z stassats: don't do it just to get REMOVE 2015-01-08T18:37:33Z Ainieco: stassats: okay, i'll try to came up with different name then 2015-01-08T18:37:48Z stassats: Ainieco: you have the thesaurus 2015-01-08T18:38:36Z stassats: expunge? evict? obliterate? annihilate? 2015-01-08T18:38:53Z Ainieco: haha, yup 2015-01-08T18:39:03Z stassats: nuke 2015-01-08T18:39:19Z stassats: seems short enough for your tastes 2015-01-08T18:39:26Z jasom: Ainieco: one way is to prefix with your ADT: set-insert set-remove set-fnord 2015-01-08T18:39:53Z dlowe: I would just go for add and del 2015-01-08T18:40:03Z dlowe: and put the utility into its own package 2015-01-08T18:40:17Z dlowe: set:add and set:del seem like reasonable names 2015-01-08T18:40:18Z stassats: why not a and d? 2015-01-08T18:40:29Z stassats: s:a and s:d 2015-01-08T18:40:56Z stassats: and s:l for looking up 2015-01-08T18:40:57Z Ainieco: dlowe: that's exactly what i did(except for naming it add and del) 2015-01-08T18:41:01Z akkad works to identify the 10x difference in sbcl and this leading enterprise lisp 2015-01-08T18:41:21Z stassats: akkad: and doing what? 2015-01-08T18:41:30Z dlowe: stassats: if that's how you roll, go ahead. 2015-01-08T18:42:03Z pjb: Ainieco: even if you remove a slot in a vector or list structure, you cannot redefine the structure conformingly with defstruct, that is, you cannot expect it to redefine correctly the functions to access the slots in the vector or list structure. 2015-01-08T18:42:09Z stassats: dlowe: that's too long, i would just :a and :d 2015-01-08T18:42:20Z dlowe: stassats: okay. feel free. I won't judge. 2015-01-08T18:42:23Z akkad: stassats: mostly chipz on gzip 2015-01-08T18:42:33Z pjb: Ainieco: it is very strange to be wanting to remove slots in a structure (unless you do that while programming). 2015-01-08T18:42:51Z pjb: Ainieco: perhaps you need to keep a sequence as a field of your structure, for those "dynamic" values? 2015-01-08T18:42:58Z stassats: akkad: it's specifically optimized for sbcl, 2015-01-08T18:43:12Z stassats: akkad: sbcl has optimizations for modular arithmetic 2015-01-08T18:43:49Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-08T18:43:49Z akkad: 10x is quite higher than I would have expected :P 2015-01-08T18:43:53Z akkad: nice surprise :P 2015-01-08T18:44:54Z Ainieco: pjb: it's not that i'm removing slots in structure, it's just my struct represents data for which it makes sense to define add and remove 2015-01-08T18:45:03Z stassats: akkad: and it's for portable code too 2015-01-08T18:45:32Z akkad: now if only we could get sbcl liberated under the gpl 2015-01-08T18:45:32Z stassats: akkad: so your (logand #xFFFFFFFF (+ x y)) is both portable and fast on SBCL 2015-01-08T18:45:35Z rurumate: how to append #\newline to a string? (concatenate 'string "abc" #\newline) fails 2015-01-08T18:45:43Z stassats: akkad: never going to happen 2015-01-08T18:46:11Z Ainieco: pjb: just a naming problem, nevermind, already picked up different name for remove 2015-01-08T18:46:13Z akkad: it's PD right? or bsd-esque? 2015-01-08T18:46:24Z stassats: akkad: PD with BSD 2015-01-08T18:46:30Z akkad: k 2015-01-08T18:46:35Z White_Flame: rurumate: concatenate takes sequences, so (string #\Newline) vs just #\Newline would be the easiest fix 2015-01-08T18:46:56Z akkad: pretty sure theres a RL equivalent under BSD 2015-01-08T18:46:57Z rurumate: White_Flame: the string function is what I was looking for. thanks 2015-01-08T18:47:01Z Oladon: rurumate: Or you could use format 2015-01-08T18:47:01Z stassats: string would create a new string just to discard it 2015-01-08T18:47:15Z oGMo: akkad: yeah libedit or whatnot 2015-01-08T18:47:15Z White_Flame: (format nil "~a~%" string) is also another option for tacking things together 2015-01-08T18:47:27Z oGMo: akkad: rl-equivalent api too 2015-01-08T18:47:31Z stassats: (concatenate 'string "abc" "press-ret") would be the fastest 2015-01-08T18:47:40Z akkad: so why is rlwrap required for the repl then? 2015-01-08T18:47:51Z akkad: given a non-viral licensed equivalent 2015-01-08T18:48:00Z stassats: or (concatenate 'string "abc" #.(string #\Newline)) 2015-01-08T18:48:10Z stassats: if you positively don't want newlines 2015-01-08T18:48:52Z stassats: akkad: required for what? 2015-01-08T18:49:14Z rurumate: stassats: that a reader macro? more elegant and faster indeed, thanks 2015-01-08T18:49:27Z stassats: that a reader macro 2015-01-08T18:49:35Z alpha-: 'viral licensing' 2015-01-08T18:49:37Z alpha-: heh 2015-01-08T18:49:42Z stassats: rurumate: as are ( or #\ 2015-01-08T18:49:58Z rurumate: it's read time evaluation I mean 2015-01-08T18:50:08Z stassats: right 2015-01-08T18:50:58Z stassats: #. won't always work, sometimes you have to use (load-time-value ... t), say, for functions 2015-01-08T18:51:54Z Oladon: stassats: could you elaborate on that? 2015-01-08T18:52:07Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:52:08Z stassats: Oladon: functions cannot be dumped into FASLS 2015-01-08T18:53:10Z thawes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T18:53:56Z Oladon runs off to read up on load-time-value 2015-01-08T18:54:12Z AlexeyKamenew joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:54:18Z akkad: stassats: to get a modern/usable repl without slime/emacs 2015-01-08T18:54:34Z stassats: akkad: rlwrap is not a modern repl 2015-01-08T18:54:49Z akkad: readline functionality 2015-01-08T18:55:10Z stassats: there's the already mention linedit 2015-01-08T18:55:34Z akkad: and so my question of why it has not been integrated stands unsanswered. 2015-01-08T18:55:49Z akkad: was told license issues previously 2015-01-08T18:55:50Z stassats: it won't be ever 2015-01-08T18:55:56Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:56:04Z ynniv: What’s the easiest way to declare data to pass to a function that acceps (vector (unsigned-byte 8) *)? Intuitively I expect to be able to say (vector 1 2 3), but the shortest thing that works for me is (coerce (vector 1 2 3) ‘(vector (unsigned-byte 8) *)). 2015-01-08T18:56:10Z AlexeyKamenew: Hi! Please tell me. Where can I ask some beginner questions about ASDF? 2015-01-08T18:56:13Z jasom: akkad: linedit is what is given 2015-01-08T18:56:17Z jasom: AlexeyKamenew: here 2015-01-08T18:56:18Z dlowe: AlexeyKamenew: this is a good place 2015-01-08T18:56:21Z Oladon: AlexeyKamenew: ask :) 2015-01-08T18:56:25Z xyh joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:56:33Z Bicyclidine: ynniv: (vector 1 2 3) isn't a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)). yes, it's often confusing. 2015-01-08T18:56:40Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:57:01Z xyh: is there any not so low level macro system as defmacro in common-lisp ? 2015-01-08T18:57:06Z akkad: stassats: ok. thanks for the feedback. was just wanting to understand the reasoning. 2015-01-08T18:57:10Z jasom: ynniv: that's a reasonable way; you can also do a make-vector with initial contents 2015-01-08T18:57:14Z jasom: er make-array 2015-01-08T18:57:18Z stassats: akkad: it's out of scope 2015-01-08T18:57:21Z Oladon: xyh: What do you mean? 2015-01-08T18:57:30Z Bicyclidine: ynniv: (vector (unsigned-byte 8)) is a vector that can only hold (unsigned-byte 8)s (so it can do packing and stuff). the function vector makes a more general vector. 2015-01-08T18:57:34Z stassats: akkad: same reason why it doesn't have an integrated web-server 2015-01-08T18:57:45Z xyh: Oladon: defmacro is too low level 2015-01-08T18:57:49Z akkad: except as a command processor for humans... 2015-01-08T18:58:06Z xyh: Oladon: you know scheme's macro system ? 2015-01-08T18:58:08Z jasom: ynniv: (make-array 3 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents '(1 2 3)) 2015-01-08T18:58:09Z Oladon: xyh: what are you trying to do? 2015-01-08T18:58:15Z ynniv: Bicyclidine, jasom: is there a convenient way to make a specialized vector? make-array with :element-type and :initial-contents is pretty verbose 2015-01-08T18:58:38Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:58:40Z ynniv: jasom: that’s actually what I had earlier, the coerce seems like an improvement over that 2015-01-08T18:58:40Z xyh: Oladon: I am just trying to learn the macro system in common-lisp 2015-01-08T18:58:58Z Bicyclidine: ynniv: (defun make-ub8-array (&rest elements) (make-array (length elements) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents elements)) maybe 2015-01-08T18:58:59Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-08T18:59:10Z Bicyclidine: make-ub8-vector. whatever. 2015-01-08T18:59:17Z Oladon: xyh: okay, what's the issue you're having? 2015-01-08T19:00:01Z xyh: Oladon: someone must had written some other macro system in common-lisp right ? 2015-01-08T19:00:10Z Oladon: Why? 2015-01-08T19:00:10Z stassats: ynniv: coerce is slower than make-array on sbcl 2015-01-08T19:00:14Z ynniv: I see a trend here. Since coerce is actually pretty concise, is there a good reason not to use it? 2015-01-08T19:00:25Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:00:28Z ynniv: I like #lisp. My questions get answered before I ask them. ;-) 2015-01-08T19:00:42Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:00:46Z jasom: xyh: Pretty much all Common Lispers like the common-lisp macro system 2015-01-08T19:00:48Z stassats: well, i can make it as fast 2015-01-08T19:00:59Z jasom: xyh: it's really really simple, and there aren't too many pitfalls 2015-01-08T19:01:11Z Bicyclidine: defining a shorthand function to make ub8-vectors seems fine to me, really. could even add reader syntax if you really want! 2015-01-08T19:01:14Z wasamasa: GENSYM everything 2015-01-08T19:01:18Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-08T19:01:37Z jasom: xyh: the short version is 1) Pay attention to how many times your arguments are evaluated 2) Don't bind symbols you don't own 2015-01-08T19:01:48Z jasom: where "own" is a bit fuzzy depending on what you want to accomplish 2015-01-08T19:01:50Z pullphinger joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:02:23Z stassats: &rest rest is slow too 2015-01-08T19:02:30Z stassats: well, i can make it as fast 2015-01-08T19:02:36Z Bicyclidine: :( 2015-01-08T19:02:56Z jasom: make-ub8-array should probably be inlined anyway, right? Aren't inlined &rest just as fast? 2015-01-08T19:03:13Z xyh: jasom: ok, i ll try to like it too. thx 2015-01-08T19:03:49Z jasom: xyh: the thing to remember is that lisp macros are just lisp functions that get evaluated at a different time 2015-01-08T19:03:59Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:04:03Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:04:08Z Bicyclidine: i wonder how many calls to vector could be done at compile time... 2015-01-08T19:04:20Z jasom: xyh: and lisp code isn't text, as it gets converted to lisp data structures at read-time 2015-01-08T19:04:29Z jasom: xyh: most other macro systems work on text, which is messy 2015-01-08T19:05:20Z AlexeyKamenew: Env (asx;sbcl2.10;asdf 3x) ;;; asdf config: ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf: (:source-registry (:directory /Users/kamenew/prj/testproj") :inherit-configuration) 2015-01-08T19:05:21Z AlexeyKamenew: case 1: /Users/kamenew/prj/testproj/testproj.asd: (defsystem "TESTPROJ") ;;; in sbcl (asdf:load-system "TESTPROJ") - OK 2015-01-08T19:05:25Z Bicyclidine: probably they're thinking of something like scheme's macros? which you can write over CL macros, it's just kind of pointless 2015-01-08T19:05:26Z jasom: xyh: lisp also had macros to work on text, they are called reader macros... those can get messy, and are used much more sparingly than macros 2015-01-08T19:05:31Z AlexeyKamenew: case2: /Users/kamenew/prj/testproj/testproj.asd: (defsystem "TESTPROJA") ;;; in sbcl (asdf:load-system "TESTPROJA") - FAIL 2015-01-08T19:05:32Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T19:05:59Z jasom: Bicyclidine: it's also non-trivial to do scheme's macros in a performant way 2015-01-08T19:06:01Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:06:32Z jasom: xyh: oops, my last line should have started "lisp also has" not "lisp also had"; reader macros still exist. 2015-01-08T19:06:54Z Ainieco: AlexeyKamenew: system name must equal directory name 2015-01-08T19:07:03Z Ainieco: must be equal with* 2015-01-08T19:07:03Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:07:19Z jasom: Ainieco: not quite, you can doo testproj/a for example 2015-01-08T19:07:24Z Joreji joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:07:39Z stassats: jasom: inlinig doesn't help either 2015-01-08T19:07:47Z Ainieco: jasom: haven't knew about '/' 2015-01-08T19:08:09Z scharan joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:08:29Z Ainieco: jasom: wait, do you mean system name 'testproj/a'? 2015-01-08T19:08:50Z AlexeyKamenew: yes system name TESTPROJA 2015-01-08T19:09:15Z AlexeyKamenew: just simple different from TESTPROJ - not equeal with file name 2015-01-08T19:09:55Z Ainieco: yeah, it should be equal i think, encountered something like that while ago 2015-01-08T19:10:18Z jasom: Ainieco: Ainieco AlexeyKamenew http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#index-find_002dsystem 2015-01-08T19:10:22Z jasom: and I'm leaving now 2015-01-08T19:10:51Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:11:10Z AlexeyKamenew: tnx - will read now 2015-01-08T19:11:26Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T19:11:41Z Oladon: stassats: I feel like I'm being dense, but I've read over the CLHS page for load-time-value a few times now, and I still can't grasp the difference between it and #. -- would you be willing to provide an example of where you'd need load-time-value instead of #.? 2015-01-08T19:11:53Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:12:12Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T19:13:31Z zacharias joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:13:44Z stassats: only #. can do (declare (type (integer 0 #.(expt 2 38)) ...) 2015-01-08T19:14:04Z Bicyclidine: Oladon: #. is at compile (read) time. load-time-value tells the loader to compute something at load time, which is later 2015-01-08T19:14:05Z stassats: only l-t-v: (load-time-value (generate-fancy-optimized-function x) t) 2015-01-08T19:14:18Z intinig quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:14:37Z xyh: any SBCL implementer here ? if we expect (which we should) that all well written code use "," in the style of `(1 2 ,(+ 1 2)) instead of `(1 2 , (+ 1 2)) why we do not allow "," to be used in symbol name ? 2015-01-08T19:14:54Z ynniv: Bicyclidine: looks like a macro is about 500 times faster than a function that uses &rest 2015-01-08T19:14:56Z stassats: xyh: it's the standard, not SBCL 2015-01-08T19:14:57Z Bicyclidine: that's nothing to do with sbcl, it's standard 2015-01-08T19:15:17Z Bicyclidine: xyh: you can use es\,cape and |es,cape| 2015-01-08T19:15:30Z ynniv: obviously this is for literals, not runtime data 2015-01-08T19:15:50Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:15:51Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T19:15:56Z AlexeyKamenew: tnx :-) ... you should put the definition for a system foo in a file named foo.asd, in a directory that is in the central registry or which can be found using the source registry configuration. ... tnx )) 2015-01-08T19:16:01Z pjb: Oladon: #. works at read time (in general, the source is read while compiling it!), while load-time-value works at load time (which may be loading the source, or loading the fasl file). 2015-01-08T19:16:02Z Bicyclidine: ynniv: i'd just use #.(ub8-vector ...) then, i think. 2015-01-08T19:16:04Z mishoo joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:16:23Z ynniv: ? 2015-01-08T19:16:33Z Bicyclidine: instead of a macro 2015-01-08T19:16:55Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:17:31Z ynniv: I don’t know what #.(ub8-vector …) means 2015-01-08T19:17:33Z AlexeyKamenew quit 2015-01-08T19:17:58Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:18:07Z Bicyclidine: ynniv: where ub8-vector is the function that just does make-array. #. makes it evaluate at read time, so it's a real literal. 2015-01-08T19:18:32Z egp_ quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше)) 2015-01-08T19:18:33Z Oladon: stassats: pjb: Bicyclidine: Ahh, thanks. 2015-01-08T19:19:43Z ynniv: ah, I have not encoutered #.( yet 2015-01-08T19:19:59Z Bicyclidine: clhs #. 2015-01-08T19:19:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 2015-01-08T19:20:08Z rurumate: Hot to make this code a shell script that takes one numerical argument and invokes (xs $t) 2015-01-08T19:20:21Z rurumate: sorry I meant (xs $1), and here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145121 2015-01-08T19:20:36Z ejbs` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:20:41Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:21:51Z beach left #lisp 2015-01-08T19:22:01Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:22:21Z ynniv: Is it common to use #. instead of macros? What’s the advantage? 2015-01-08T19:22:22Z ejbs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:22:38Z stassats: totally different 2015-01-08T19:22:46Z Bicyclidine: means you can use ub8-vector as a regular old function elsewhere, including passing it around 2015-01-08T19:23:02Z antoszka: clhs #. 2015-01-08T19:23:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 2015-01-08T19:23:15Z antoszka: ynniv: had a look at that? ↑ 2015-01-08T19:23:28Z ynniv: yeah, Bicyclidine just conjured that 2015-01-08T19:23:51Z Bicyclidine: i often conjure. 2015-01-08T19:24:53Z ynniv: It makes sense that a function is more useful… I’m just surprised that I haven’t run into #. yet, but then I’ve only been casualy hacking at CL for a few years. 2015-01-08T19:24:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:25:06Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:25:20Z dlowe: there's not that many good reasons to use it. It's nice when you need it, though 2015-01-08T19:26:25Z enitiz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T19:26:49Z ejbs`` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:26:54Z ynniv: It’s good to know about, tho… If the only reason to use a macro is for read-time literal performance, now you don’t need to use a macro. 2015-01-08T19:28:22Z ejbs` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:28:54Z ynniv: on the other hand, anyone who uses the literal function needs to know to use #., which is not true of a macro 2015-01-08T19:30:22Z dlowe: macros aren't especially good for performance. You're better off using the inline declaration on normal functions 2015-01-08T19:31:17Z bb010g joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:32:24Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:32:49Z ynniv: dlowe: inline doesn’t seem to be helping in this instance. Perhaps because the function uses &rest? 2015-01-08T19:34:26Z dlowe: ynniv: yeah, using &rest can kill performance. It has to allocate a new list every call without a dynamic-extant declaration 2015-01-08T19:35:18Z Bicyclidine: inlining will result in a make-array call at runtime, which is different from a literal both in semantics and speed 2015-01-08T19:35:21Z egp_ quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-08T19:36:07Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:36:52Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:36:58Z foom: #. is evil, try to avoid it 2015-01-08T19:37:20Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus 2015-01-08T19:38:31Z Bicyclidine: doesn't seem any more evil than #() here. 2015-01-08T19:38:36Z enitiz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:39:37Z foom: It adds another "time" -- read-time -- for developers to have to think about code possibly being run, besides compile-time, load-time, and run-time. And it's almost always unnecessary. 2015-01-08T19:41:42Z schaueho joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:42:31Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:47:51Z oudeis_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:49:22Z oudeis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T19:50:09Z fiveop joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:51:14Z fiveop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T19:53:51Z rurumate: How to quickly grok format syntax? 2015-01-08T19:54:30Z alpha-: http://www.cliki.net/FORMAT%20cheat%20sheet 2015-01-08T19:55:15Z rurumate: many thanks 2015-01-08T19:56:34Z nell joined #lisp 2015-01-08T19:57:09Z antoszka: rurumate: google for gigamonkeys few format recipes for a more literate overview :) 2015-01-08T19:58:57Z dlowe: I think the hyperspec on format is actually pretty readable 2015-01-08T19:59:07Z Shinmera: clhs 22.3 2015-01-08T19:59:07Z specbot: Formatted Output: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 2015-01-08T19:59:42Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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(Click the links in the first column for corresponding full description in the CLHS.) 2015-01-08T20:14:13Z sheilong quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:14:53Z Bicyclidine: stassats: putting an optimizer on coerce? 2015-01-08T20:15:20Z stassats: transform coerce to make-array, then make-array knows what to do 2015-01-08T20:15:37Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:15:54Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T20:16:26Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T20:18:22Z xyh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:18:58Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T20:19:06Z intinig joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:19:35Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-08T20:19:48Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:24:07Z stassats: but even the existing make-array optimization is not bullet proof 2015-01-08T20:24:53Z stassats: sbcl doesn't have good facilities for expression multi-function optimizations 2015-01-08T20:25:05Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T20:26:03Z Ragnaroek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T20:26:07Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:27:50Z cpc26 quit 2015-01-08T20:27:59Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:28:13Z mishoo__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T20:28:34Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:29:43Z intinig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T20:29:45Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2015-01-08T20:30:28Z ynniv joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:33:30Z ggole quit 2015-01-08T20:34:04Z innertracks joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:35:49Z sz0 is now known as sz0` 2015-01-08T20:36:05Z Ragnaroek joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:36:48Z thawes joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:37:27Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:39:16Z Jirachier quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:39:33Z Jirachier joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:40:59Z sz0` is now known as sz0 2015-01-08T20:41:10Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2015-01-08T20:41:40Z stassats: &rest is a bit more complicated 2015-01-08T20:41:48Z pt1 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:43:10Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T20:43:13Z DrCode joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:44:22Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:45:04Z stassats: maybe for some other time 2015-01-08T20:45:23Z stassats: it is doable, but more involved 2015-01-08T20:46:01Z backupthrick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:46:05Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2015-01-08T20:46:13Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:50:55Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2015-01-08T20:52:59Z mrkkrp joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:53:29Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:56:22Z rurumate quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T20:57:21Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:57:23Z bobbysmith0071 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2015-01-08T20:58:35Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T20:58:40Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T21:00:17Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:01:54Z ejbs``` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:03:34Z ejbs`` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:04:34Z tadni joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:04:56Z hrs quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Perhaps you wanted a command accepting an integer, and not a number? 2015-01-08T21:13:15Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:15:08Z pierre1_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:16:39Z hekmek quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-08T21:18:00Z BlastHardcheese joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:20:10Z ejbs````` joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:21:54Z playnu_com_ar joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:22:07Z ejbs```` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:22:15Z rurumate quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:22:54Z rurumate joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:24:53Z hrs joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:28:09Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-01-08T21:29:35Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:29:46Z soggybread quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-08T21:31:27Z soggybread joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:34:37Z jasom: rurumate: easiest way to make a shell script or executable is cl-launch 2015-01-08T21:35:16Z rurumate: jasom: with sbcl you can use --interactive 2015-01-08T21:35:24Z drinkcoffee joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:35:55Z jasom: rurumate: you mean --script ? 2015-01-08T21:35:58Z stassats: can you? 2015-01-08T21:36:05Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:36:13Z rurumate: oops I meant --script 2015-01-08T21:36:14Z stassats: there's --non-interactive 2015-01-08T21:36:18Z rurumate: yes 2015-01-08T21:36:53Z jasom: rurumate: cl-launch has lots of other nice features, and makes it super easy to generate images and executables as well 2015-01-08T21:37:54Z rurumate: this is it, only problem is paredit doesn't like the shebang line: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145123 2015-01-08T21:38:55Z rurumate: jasom: but cl-launch is an external library? doesn't it make distribution harder? 2015-01-08T21:38:59Z ejbs````` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:39:11Z pjb: rurumate: that's why I write my scripts with clisp! :-) 2015-01-08T21:39:35Z jasom: rurumate: if you build an executable, it makes distribution easier 2015-01-08T21:39:44Z pjb: otherwise, you have indeed to be careful, just like with any unix script that requires external resources. 2015-01-08T21:39:48Z jasom: rurumate: well, modulo certain assumptions about the target 2015-01-08T21:39:50Z pjb: One easy way is to catenate all the required code into a single file. 2015-01-08T21:39:51Z stassats: rurumate: you do not distribute it 2015-01-08T21:40:01Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:40:26Z jasom: rurumate: if they have cl-launch installed, then it will find any one of several lisp executables, vs. must have sbcl installed 2015-01-08T21:40:36Z pjb: Just having your script used by other users on the same system can be a problem if you don't deal with distribution! 2015-01-08T21:40:39Z jasom: cl-launch + one common-lisp versus sbcl; not that much different 2015-01-08T21:40:40Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:40:44Z rurumate: I se 2015-01-08T21:40:47Z rurumate: *see 2015-01-08T21:42:50Z pullphinger quit 2015-01-08T21:43:32Z jasom: I've had python scripts fail hard because they targeted e.g. python2.4 and tried to use features that were removed by 2.7 2015-01-08T21:43:39Z PuercoPop: jasom: cl-launch is not without problems for example afaik it compiles everythings does a save-lisp-and-die and reloads it. So i've had problem with using wookie as a 'filesytem directory browser' http server. (ala python -m SimpleHTTPServer). But it otherwise very easy to although a bit verbose 2015-01-08T21:46:37Z soggybread quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2015-01-08T21:48:00Z soggybread joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:49:38Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:51:41Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:53:05Z cpc26 joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:54:20Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:54:53Z egp_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T21:55:52Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-08T21:57:25Z rurumate: All I get out of cl-launch is complaints about "Unrecognized command line argument"s 2015-01-08T21:58:01Z egp_ joined #lisp 2015-01-08T21:58:37Z nyef: Okay, signing off for the evening. 2015-01-08T21:58:38Z rurumate: Even the first example from http://cliki.net/cl-launch doesn't work 2015-01-08T21:58:40Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2015-01-08T21:59:44Z PuercoPop: well you don't have the lisp-stripper system in your machine I pressume and you aren't telling cl-launch to use quicklisp 2015-01-08T22:00:14Z ahungry_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2015-01-08T22:00:37Z rurumate: I just noticed I have version 3.22.1; ubuntu repos are really slow moving 2015-01-08T22:01:52Z alpha-: if only there was a lisp-oriented debian repository with up to date latest and greatest lispy things 2015-01-08T22:02:19Z alpha-: right now I get to enjoy compiling everything from source ; ... 2015-01-08T22:02:33Z PuercoPop: if you use -Q it will try to use quicklisp to load the asdf system. But lisp-stripper is not in quicklisp either. 2015-01-08T22:03:09Z Xach: I wonder how it uses quicklisp. 2015-01-08T22:03:11Z Xach should check the code 2015-01-08T22:04:54Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-08T22:05:56Z rurumate: ok now with 4.1 I get a different error message. Fatal condition: There is no class named CL-LAUNCH::IMAGE-OP 2015-01-08T22:06:36Z rurumate: trying to run the first example on http://cliki.net/cl-launch by putting it in an executable file and invoking without arguments 2015-01-08T22:06:38Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2015-01-08T22:11:35Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2015-01-08T22:12:48Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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