2015-01-01T00:00:38Z |3b|: nyef: looks like they generate VHDL http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2013/06/lisp-hackers-marc-battyani.html
2015-01-01T00:01:06Z |3b| must have been thinking about that project to reverse bitcode talking about fast turnaround on customizing the hardware
2015-01-01T00:01:19Z nyef: |3b|: Which is the impression I get from the Chisel page.
2015-01-01T00:01:31Z tadni: |3b|: That sounds more reasonable, doable.
2015-01-01T00:01:37Z |3b|: but that sounds like they have something like chisel for CL, just not free
2015-01-01T00:01:46Z nyef: I remember Marc's talk at boston-lisp, so I knew that they at least generated VHDL (or Verilog, one or the other) at the time.
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2015-01-01T00:02:10Z tadni: |3b|: That's saddening. Well if no-one does it in like 3 years, I'll do it.
2015-01-01T00:02:36Z tadni: FPGA is the only hardware I'm really interested in, but I am REALLY interested in them.
2015-01-01T00:02:44Z nyef: It's a tempting project, I must admit.
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2015-01-01T00:03:41Z nyef: But the bit about the FPGA manufacturers not allowing reverse engineering and being actively hostile to open-source tool support is a bit of a downer.
2015-01-01T00:04:21Z tadni: nyef: It's because they have an oligopoly in a massively expanding market.
2015-01-01T00:04:48Z tadni: And the barrier to entry, to develop decent free-software/hardware competition is insane.
2015-01-01T00:06:09Z nyef: That's just it: they patent the hardware, they guard the bitstream formats as trade secrets, and they actively prosecute (persecute?) anyone who tries to produce tools that work with reverse-engineered bitstream formats.
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2015-01-01T00:06:22Z nyef: Nevermind that anyone using such toolchains are Still Buying Their Hardware.
2015-01-01T00:06:41Z tadni: nyef: "My IP".
2015-01-01T00:07:32Z nyef: One of the arguments against sharing bitstream formats is that it would presumably make it possible to reverse engineer a device from its bitstream.
2015-01-01T00:07:43Z nyef: But that's what strong crypto is for.
2015-01-01T00:08:32Z tadni: The home board/chip fabrication brought about by 3d printing advancements, it going to DESTROY these buisnesses if they don't adapt in the next 10 years.
2015-01-01T00:08:47Z nyef: They don't care.
2015-01-01T00:08:53Z tadni: nyef: They will/
2015-01-01T00:09:01Z nyef: Yes, but only once it's too late.
2015-01-01T00:09:05Z nyef: This is classic Drucker.
2015-01-01T00:09:12Z tadni: They will/They should.*
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2015-01-01T00:10:17Z nyef: As I said, classic Drucker. Ever read "Innovation and Enterpraneurship"(sp?)?
2015-01-01T00:11:10Z nyef: Anyway, programmable logic is interesting, but I share your preference for open-source toolchains, all the way down to the device programmer. And the ONLY thing that I've found for which I can find the programming specs for and can find via Mouser or Digi-key is a TI 22v10 derivative of some sort.
2015-01-01T00:11:11Z tadni: nyef: I mean, I had a guy arguing with me yesterday that we shouldn't be bothering with FOSH FPGAs until such a thing becomes affoardable. I want to have these as soon as possible, so as soon as the 3d printing tech becomes semi-affoardable ... I want to be able to poop one out.
2015-01-01T00:11:18Z nyef: For something like five dollars each.
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2015-01-01T00:11:41Z nyef: What? Not bother until it's affordable? It won't be affordable until some people bother!
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2015-01-01T00:11:53Z tadni: nyef: Yeah, I was trying to argue this.
2015-01-01T00:12:13Z Zhivago: Home chip fabrication is a ways off yet. :)
2015-01-01T00:12:51Z nyef: My current hardware limitations are 5v, through-hole.
2015-01-01T00:12:53Z tadni: Zhivago: Yeah, but if one could crowdfund at a hacker space for a 20,000 dollar machine.
2015-01-01T00:12:57Z nyef: With a preference for wire-wrap.
2015-01-01T00:13:48Z Zhivago: Even then, do you expect a worthwhile resolution?
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2015-01-01T00:13:58Z nyef: 20,000 dollar machine? If I were near enough to a hackerspace and it were something that I could see myself using, I might pony up a 1/20 share of that.
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2015-01-01T00:14:40Z Zhivago: Those things involve incredibly fine tollerances.
2015-01-01T00:14:59Z tadni: nyef: Yeah, my hackerspace has like 50 regular members. 25 super dedicated members; I could see such a thing, easily being bought for hackerspaces.
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2015-01-01T00:17:39Z nyef: I could easily see 20,000 for a good automated PCB-making system if it brings the per-board cost down significantly and has quick turnaround.
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2015-01-01T00:18:37Z Zhivago: For pbc, sure - it's this chip fabrication I'm sceptical of.
2015-01-01T00:18:55Z nyef: Which would you rather: Send your boards off to wherever and have a one-week to one-month turnaround, or use the machine at your local hackerspace at half the cost and a turnaround in hours, with a one-time $500 down payment?
2015-01-01T00:18:59Z tadni: Zhivago: It's going to happen, I jut don't know exactly when or how much.
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2015-01-01T00:19:35Z tadni: I see a day, where one could literally print a full FPGA in a day.
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2015-01-01T00:20:27Z Zhivago: Why print fpga? If you can print, just print the program as hardware.
2015-01-01T00:20:29Z Bicyclidine: wait, if you can print an fpga wouldn't it be easier to just print an asic you'd program it with anyway?
2015-01-01T00:20:39Z nyef: The other thing is, even if you have a machine that's limited to a spectacularly shitty resolution and something like an NMOS or CMOS process, you'd still get hobbyist buyers.
2015-01-01T00:20:59Z nyef: And, yeah, it'd be ASICs rather than FPGAs.
2015-01-01T00:21:14Z nyef: For which, IIRC, there ARE open-source design libraries.
2015-01-01T00:21:22Z nyef: The problem there is the lack of fabs!
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2015-01-01T00:22:24Z tadni still doesn't get the differences between the two (ASICs and FPGAs). From a cursory understadning, they seem very similar.
2015-01-01T00:22:35Z Bicyclidine: um.
2015-01-01T00:22:37Z Zhivago: I suspect it will await advances in biotechniques -- using bacteria as nanobots or some such.
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2015-01-01T00:23:00Z Bicyclidine: an FPGA is something you can program to act like an ASIC.
2015-01-01T00:23:15Z tadni: Zhivago: If there comes into place, a fully FOSH FPGA DESIGN and FOSS toolchain -- 3d printing one would not be a huge deal for me.
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2015-01-01T00:23:50Z Bicyclidine: it's like the difference between a lisp evaluator and a lisp program (hey-o, topic!)
2015-01-01T00:23:50Z Zhivago: Remember that 'f' is for 'field', ad in 'in the field'.
2015-01-01T00:24:07Z nyef: An ASIC is like a mask ROM: It does one thing. An FPGA is like a PROM (one-time programmable) or FlashROM (can be erased and re-programmed): you buy them and THEN load the behavior that you want into them.
2015-01-01T00:24:50Z nyef: If you're 3d-printing chips anyway, you don't need an FPGA toolchain, you need an EDA toolchain that will do ASICs. And THOSE are available.
2015-01-01T00:24:51Z tadni: nyef: Yeah, gotcha.
2015-01-01T00:25:10Z Bicyclidine: if it was quick and easy to print asics you practically wouldn't need fpgas. maybe if you have a big enough factory that you can print a shitload at once, and then you don't care about FOSS
2015-01-01T00:25:34Z Zhivago: Except that 3d printers will never address the required resolutions.
2015-01-01T00:25:59Z Bicyclidine: i did say "if"
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2015-01-01T00:26:14Z tadni probably should take an FPGA design course at his transfer school.
2015-01-01T00:26:16Z |3b|: being able to customize it on the fly might make fpga worth printing, as would the 1day turnaround if you are still working out the design
2015-01-01T00:26:33Z Zhivago: Sure - it's just going to need a different approach.
2015-01-01T00:26:46Z Bicyclidine: mm, true.
2015-01-01T00:26:57Z Bicyclidine: do they have classes in designing fpgas anywhere?
2015-01-01T00:27:26Z Bicyclidine: there can't be that many people doing that.
2015-01-01T00:27:35Z |3b| suspects you could find class info online
2015-01-01T00:27:44Z |3b|: online classes i mean
2015-01-01T00:27:50Z nyef: Designing FPGAs? As in the chips themselves, rather than the HDL/Verilog to load into them?
2015-01-01T00:27:51Z |3b|: or teaching materials
2015-01-01T00:27:56Z tadni: Bicyclidine: I'm pretty sure there's one at MO S&T.
2015-01-01T00:27:58Z Bicyclidine: nyef: right.
2015-01-01T00:28:13Z |3b|: from what i remember last i looked it was easy to get tools/info for the small/cheap fpgas
2015-01-01T00:28:16Z nyef: The basics seem pretty straightforward to me, for some reason.
2015-01-01T00:28:21Z Bicyclidine: I had a class on logic circuits that /used/ FPGAs, but to load in our own verilog, not to design our own FPGA
2015-01-01T00:28:48Z |3b|: ah, designing the hardware is probably just a subset of asic design stuff
2015-01-01T00:28:55Z nyef: Exactly!
2015-01-01T00:29:10Z nyef: And there should still be classes on ASIC design.
2015-01-01T00:29:11Z Bicyclidine: yeah. just a specific kind of design, probably not something you'd have a whole class in
2015-01-01T00:29:15Z |3b|: someone should make an open source FPGA design we can run on the proprietary FPGAs :)
2015-01-01T00:29:29Z tadni: Bicyclidine: Well, there's certainly those classes at MO S&T.
2015-01-01T00:29:32Z nyef: |3b|: Cute.
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2015-01-01T00:30:36Z Bicyclidine: wow, i do not like how this school organizes their catalog.
2015-01-01T00:30:57Z tadni: Bicyclidine: MO S&T?
2015-01-01T00:31:11Z nyef: Also, while it's easy to get tools and documentation for most FPGAs these days, it's high-level information and proprietary tools, not things like bitstream formats and open-source tools.
2015-01-01T00:31:25Z Bicyclidine: yes. alphabetical grouped into multiple PDFs
2015-01-01T00:31:40Z nyef: (Gratis proprietary, but still proprietary.)
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2015-01-01T00:32:21Z nyef: Damnit, who was it that was working on interoperating with an existing FPGA toolchain from CL?
2015-01-01T00:32:26Z Bicyclidine: I actually don't see anything about logic circuits in the EE other than a small mention, hm
2015-01-01T00:32:37Z Bicyclidine: Um, started with an s. stack smith?
2015-01-01T00:33:32Z nyef: Might have been stacksmith.
2015-01-01T00:33:39Z Bicyclidine: yep https://github.com/stacksmith/fpgasm
2015-01-01T00:33:48Z tadni: Bicyclidine: My cousin went there, and mentioned to me before that there was ... maybe he was just full of it. He wasn't a EE or CompEng major so... he probably heard it secondhand.
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2015-01-01T00:34:22Z Bicyclidine: he might have been confusing "designing ASICs (on FPGAs)" and "designing FPGAs", is all
2015-01-01T00:34:36Z tadni: Bicyclidine: Yeah, was actually about to mention this.
2015-01-01T00:34:51Z tadni: Probably that.
2015-01-01T00:35:56Z nyef adds to his collection of "FPGA and ASICs" links.
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2015-01-01T00:36:48Z nyef: Went, as in past tense? The course catalog could have changed since then.
2015-01-01T00:37:44Z tadni: nyef: He's 4 years older, and graduated HS a year early. So he graduated like 2 to near 3 years ago?
2015-01-01T00:38:19Z nyef: We have a number of academics who are regulars here, so we can ask them about how a course catalog tends to change over time.
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2015-01-01T00:39:21Z nyef: beach might show up again in another three hours, though that's somewhat early in his day, and I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to sleep in. (-:
2015-01-01T00:40:09Z nyef: And drmeister_ is, hopefully, either partying or having a quiet evening with family and/or friends.
2015-01-01T00:40:20Z tadni: Also, what a weird dude (my cousin). He went into plastics designed, was working at Honda for a year designing small components, now he's selling stuff on Ebay. Anyways, offtopic. :^P
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2015-01-01T00:42:28Z tadni: plastics design*
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2015-01-01T01:02:00Z pjb: -
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2015-01-01T01:06:29Z drmeister_: Hello
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2015-01-01T01:07:20Z nyef: Hello drmeister_.
2015-01-01T01:08:38Z drmeister_: I'm at a week long party with friends.  I don't get time to be online much.
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2015-01-01T01:10:35Z drmeister_: I'll be back after jan 2
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2015-01-01T01:15:20Z nyef: drmeister_: Have fun!
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2015-01-01T01:34:24Z oleo: happy new year
2015-01-01T01:36:26Z nyef: Three and a half hours to go, here.
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2015-01-01T02:12:17Z schjetne: happy new year everyone!
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2015-01-01T02:18:30Z schjetne: nyef, tadni: I'm with you on the FPGA thing. I have friends interested in both setting up a fab and developing a fully free FPGA, unfortunately I don't really have the time or the money to get into the field myself.
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2015-01-01T06:05:00Z zophy: it is very good for you to have me wishing you a happy new year !!
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2015-01-01T07:04:57Z beach: Happy New Year everyone!
2015-01-01T07:05:11Z tadni: beach: o/
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2015-01-01T07:05:57Z nell: :0
2015-01-01T07:07:58Z tadni really needs to work on this lisp pun ...
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2015-01-01T07:14:58Z tadni: Does "Consfooqux" sound at all like "Confucius"?
2015-01-01T07:17:02Z tadni: Consfooshux is a bit closer. Might just say bugger all take "Ignucius" sences it's an already established joke charecter, bordering lisp, for this quote.
2015-01-01T07:17:42Z beach: What are you trying to do?
2015-01-01T07:19:07Z tadni: beach: I'm making a joke header/quote for the homepage of my blog, for 2015.
2015-01-01T07:19:24Z tadni: Right underneath is a simple description of the actual site.
2015-01-01T07:20:42Z tadni: Yeah, using  Ignuscius makes more sense.
2015-01-01T07:20:58Z stassats: this whole idea doesn't make much sense
2015-01-01T07:22:50Z tadni: stassats: It's basically just a joke header. Because a short blurb looks very weird without a title.
2015-01-01T07:24:47Z tadni: stassats: To illustrate it a bit, http://a.pomf.se/mhkcsz.png
2015-01-01T07:25:16Z tadni: Nothing on this is final, and if you happen to read the partial intro for SOME SICP 00, it is intended to be that corny.
2015-01-01T07:25:18Z stassats: doesn't sound funny
2015-01-01T07:26:31Z tadni: stassats: It's not really supposed to be funny, there's partial intention for it to be a lame pun.
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2015-01-01T07:31:12Z tadni: Here, this slightly better.
2015-01-01T07:31:20Z tadni: ""The journey of a sexptillion parens, starts with a single keystroke." - Ignuscius""
2015-01-01T07:36:50Z beach: It would actually be better if you used an existing word for the number, like billion or million, and if you used "parentheses" rather than "parens".  Just my opinion of course.
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2015-01-01T07:42:00Z tadni: beach: Sextillion is a word (10^24), Septillion is a word (10^27). I'm using this as a joke inbetween for these two.
2015-01-01T07:42:40Z tadni: beach: I'm also referencing "steps" so having something with as many syllables as "parenthesis" would sound odd.
2015-01-01T07:43:20Z tadni: In case I wasn't clear and/or this isn't a common saying, I'm parodying "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".
2015-01-01T07:43:59Z beach: I shouldn't have gotten involved in the first place.
2015-01-01T07:44:09Z tadni: beach: Nah, it's fine.
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2015-01-01T07:45:25Z tadni: I just don't know if it's clear that this is a parody or not.
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2015-01-01T07:49:21Z tadni: Well, I'll toy a bit later on it. Need to get some sleep, to be actually somewhat productive today. o/
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2015-01-01T08:04:39Z pjb: Cons Ignucius.
2015-01-01T08:05:23Z Quadrescence: ADD 1 TO YEAR GIVING YEAR
2015-01-01T08:05:27Z pjb: Sextilion is an existing word.
2015-01-01T08:05:27Z Quadrescence: wait wrong channel
2015-01-01T08:05:40Z pjb: Quadrescence: (ADD 1 TO YEAR GIVING YEAR) is ok.
2015-01-01T08:05:49Z Quadrescence: ;)
2015-01-01T08:05:52Z pjb: (defmacro add (&rest stuff) …)
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2015-01-01T08:11:13Z beach: Hmm, GitHub seems to think this is January 2014.
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2015-01-01T08:12:22Z stassats: it's actually december 32 2014
2015-01-01T08:12:45Z beach: Good thing I am not into counting commits or worrying about streaks.
2015-01-01T08:14:31Z Bicyclidine: could be worse, it could be using date %G like _some_ sites
2015-01-01T08:15:01Z pjb: What do you mean? date +%G -> 2015
2015-01-01T08:16:28Z Bicyclidine: yeah, and it said 2015 a few days ago too
2015-01-01T08:18:54Z pjb: Indeed: date +%G -d '2 days ago' --> 2015 ; some bad bug :-(
2015-01-01T08:20:20Z beach: That's pretty bad.
2015-01-01T08:20:49Z Bicyclidine: it's correct, since ISO weeks are weird, but some places treated it as the calendar year and long story short twitter crashed half its users and it was pretty funny.
2015-01-01T08:21:41Z beach: I strongly disagree that ISO weeks are weird.
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2015-01-01T08:23:01Z beach: ISO 8601 has got to be one of the best standards out there, and one of the must under-appreciated.
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2015-01-01T08:23:28Z Bicyclidine: i mean unintuitive, not bad. december 30 2014 being in week 1 of 2015 is unintuitive.
2015-01-01T08:23:31Z pjb: People just don't read standards.
2015-01-01T08:24:19Z beach: Bicyclidine: The alternative would be to have two different names for the same week.
2015-01-01T08:24:40Z stassats: 2014.5
2015-01-01T08:24:41Z pjb: Well, %G is specified to bethe year of the iso week, so it's not a bug in date; it's a bug in the user of date +%G.
2015-01-01T08:24:49Z Bicyclidine: right.
2015-01-01T08:24:50Z beach: Of course.
2015-01-01T08:24:53Z pjb: People just don't read the man pages.
2015-01-01T08:25:04Z beach: People just don't read anymore.
2015-01-01T08:25:07Z beach: Nor listen.
2015-01-01T08:25:13Z pjb: But then, there's a bad tendency of distributing linux systems without man pages.
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2015-01-01T08:26:12Z pnpuff: Happy new year!
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2015-01-01T08:26:49Z beach: pnpuff: Thanks, you too.
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2015-01-01T08:43:21Z mrkkrp: hello. what's the main advantage of cl over clojure in your opinion?
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2015-01-01T08:44:36Z pjb: mrkkrp: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2015-01-01T08:44:48Z Zhivago: Less java, more archaic baggage?
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2015-01-01T08:45:11Z pjb: s/archaic baggage/useful libraries & software/
2015-01-01T08:45:12Z H4ns: how would that be an "advantage"?
2015-01-01T08:45:51Z Zhivago: It depends on the metric used.
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2015-01-01T09:11:02Z beach: mrkkrp: You won't get an unbiased answer here, because the topic of #lisp is Common Lisp.
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2015-01-01T09:17:14Z mrkkrp: beach, anyway it's interesting to listen to arguments of people who love Common Lisp :)
2015-01-01T09:17:25Z H4ns: beach: i don't think that an unbiased answer was called for, quite to the contrary :)
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2015-01-01T09:28:28Z pnpuff: yes, of course, but I'd prefer a sniper rifle to a slingshot if I was given a choice :)
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2015-01-01T09:30:04Z Quadrescence: yes, functional data structures that the compiler has knowledge about sure are nice, pnpuff
2015-01-01T09:30:05Z Quadrescence: ;)
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2015-01-01T09:32:29Z Zhivago: Which would you rather explain to the police?
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2015-01-01T09:38:28Z pnpuff: there is nothing to explain: it's mainly a matter of maximum effective range.
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2015-01-01T09:46:55Z beach: I read a few years ago that ads for automobiles were mainly meant for those who already owned an automobile of that brand.  Maybe mrkkrp just needs to be reassured in his choice.
2015-01-01T09:48:18Z beach: Yay! SICL LOOP passes the FOR-ACROSS test suite!
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2015-01-01T10:02:54Z mrkkrp: beach, heh, no, I like cl more than any other language. Lisp has unmatched structural consistency and thus it looks good. Clojure is a Lisp too, but I don't like when hello word starts not instantly..
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2015-01-01T10:12:21Z beach: mrkkrp: That is exactly what I meant.
2015-01-01T10:13:28Z beach now has a topic for another essay.
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2015-01-01T10:36:47Z mrkkrp: Is there a library to perform colorized terminal output? I know how to do it from scratch with escape sequences, but I need a way to form something like 'style sheet' and then use it in format-like function or something like this.
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2015-01-01T10:52:19Z Grue`: damn, i just spent hours trying to debug why my locally-run webapp still runs the old code, until I realized that my browser's proxy was set to use SOCKS proxy on production server, so the app i was running wasn't in fact local
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2015-01-01T11:02:29Z Zhivago: When in doubt, break it visibly.
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2015-01-01T12:26:49Z shka: happy new year
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2015-01-01T12:30:29Z oleo: happy new year
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2015-01-01T12:58:46Z jackdaniel: happy new year
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2015-01-01T13:46:11Z pjb: mrkkrp: There's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ecma048 but you may consider it too low level.  Recently (within the last ten days), I've seen somebody has something exactly like what you want.  But I can't remember it's name.
2015-01-01T13:46:36Z pjb: mrkkrp: check the logs or cll or planet lisp or google.
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2015-01-01T13:54:47Z nyef: G'morning all, and happy new year.
2015-01-01T13:54:52Z beach: Hello nyef!  You too!
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2015-01-01T14:03:01Z beach: nyef: A year or so ago, you hinted that CLIM II was more or less designed to have a thread per sheet.  But I don't think we do that in McCLIM.
2015-01-01T14:04:29Z beach: If we did that, would it also make sense to have a command loop per sheet?
2015-01-01T14:04:34Z nyef: Yes, the evidence is there, either a thread per sheet or some mechanism to have a shared event queue among many sheets...
2015-01-01T14:04:54Z beach: In McCLIM I think we do the latter.
2015-01-01T14:05:11Z nyef: I'm not surprised, I'm doing something similar with nq-clim.
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2015-01-01T14:05:24Z beach: Shared queue?
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2015-01-01T14:06:05Z nyef: Well, for now, single-threaded operation. When the time comes, I'm thinking to have some way to filter for "interesting" messages from the CLX event queue.
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2015-01-01T14:06:32Z nyef: Anyway, no: One command loop per frame.
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2015-01-01T14:06:58Z beach: Hmm.
2015-01-01T14:07:21Z nyef: The frame holds the command table, determines which sheet is used for command I/O, and so on.
2015-01-01T14:08:01Z nyef: I'm starting to understand your integration of sheets and output-records, btw, but I'm not going to follow through on it at this point. (-:
2015-01-01T14:08:09Z beach: So in the case of a thread per sheet, what does that thread do?
2015-01-01T14:08:31Z nyef: Typically? Very little.
2015-01-01T14:08:32Z beach: nyef: It wasn't my idea.  It is in a "major issue" in the spec.
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2015-01-01T14:09:48Z beach: Oh, I guess it could handle some pointer events like enter/leave.
2015-01-01T14:09:48Z nyef: If you grab the first edition of "Lisp Lore" (pdf available from the internet archive, IIRC) you'll see a thread used per window (whatever they call them, it's been a while since I read the section) when creating UIs.
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2015-01-01T14:10:28Z beach: I'll look for it.  Thanks.
2015-01-01T14:11:19Z nyef: Essentially, it's a very BeOS approach. And I wasn't very pleased with BeOS when I tried porting software to it. /-:
2015-01-01T14:11:48Z stassats: sbcl on beos anyone?
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2015-01-01T14:12:09Z stassats changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|SBCL 1.2.7, yason 0.7.2, Drakma 1.3.11
2015-01-01T14:12:11Z nyef: The second edition has a description which is recognizably an precursor to CLIM, and doesn't mention threading at all.
2015-01-01T14:12:24Z nyef: stassats: I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot snide remark.
2015-01-01T14:12:41Z beach: nyef: I see.
2015-01-01T14:12:42Z stassats: maybe haiku
2015-01-01T14:13:43Z wasamasa: nyef: hmm, the lisp lore book states there's a whopping thirteen volumes of reference books for the symbolics lisp machin
2015-01-01T14:14:00Z nyef: "Ah, the good old days."
2015-01-01T14:14:29Z nyef: IIRC, most-to-all of them are/were available as softcopy loaded onto the machines themselves.
2015-01-01T14:17:01Z wasamasa: I wonder how zmacs compares to gnu emacs
2015-01-01T14:17:45Z wasamasa: there must be surely good ideas in it one can implement in gnu emacs
2015-01-01T14:18:00Z nyef: Hemlock is somewhat in the zmacs style, apparently.
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2015-01-01T14:19:11Z brucem: beach: DUIM has publicly available sources, is from Scott McKay, descends from CLIM, and I know roughly how the threading model works in it.
2015-01-01T14:19:25Z wasamasa: I've seen a screenshot once of what appeared to be from that lisp machine which displayed the expression causing an error with the problematic part highlighted bold
2015-01-01T14:19:38Z brucem: beach: and in that area, at least some of the terminology is the same as from the old CLIM2 doc.
2015-01-01T14:20:09Z beach: brucem: Yes, I know that Scott McKay wrote DUIM.  So can you summarize the threading model?
2015-01-01T14:21:34Z brucem: beach: the port is allowed to say that it has event-processor-type of #"n", #"n+1" or #"2n" ... unfortunately, I don't think 2n is fully implemented ... and all existing ports (capi, postscript, motif, win32, macos 9 carbon) used "n"
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2015-01-01T14:22:24Z brucem: beach: the code has this to say about each of those:   //  - #"n" means event processing happens in each user thread
2015-01-01T14:22:24Z brucem:   //  - #"n+1" means there's a single event processing thread that distributes events to each user thread
2015-01-01T14:22:25Z beach: brucem: That terminology must be specific to DUIM.
2015-01-01T14:22:58Z brucem: beach: "port" is not ... and both have a process-next-event (CLIM2 and DUIM) which I'll get to shortly perhaps.
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2015-01-01T14:23:30Z beach: Right, "port" is the same.
2015-01-01T14:24:13Z beach: nyef: First edition is the one by Hank Bromley from 1987 or so?
2015-01-01T14:24:50Z nyef: Yeah. Second edition was a year or so later and had an additional author.
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2015-01-01T14:25:06Z beach: OK.
2015-01-01T14:25:08Z brucem: beach: each sheet has an event queue ... and there's a method wait-for-event that takes a sheet and a timeout ... in mode #"n", it directly calls process-next-event on the port, which on, say, Windows, does a GetMessage()
2015-01-01T14:26:06Z nyef: brucem: So, the interesting question: Is there a "user thread" per sheet, or something else going on?
2015-01-01T14:26:21Z brucem: beach: in mode #"n+1", it waits for something to arrive in the sheet's event queue ... and it'll have been put there by a thread that was launched to sit and spin on wait-for-event earlier .. that thread handling all port-level event reading andinsertion into sheet event queues.
2015-01-01T14:27:09Z brucem: nyef: there can be ... let me see if there has to be.
2015-01-01T14:27:27Z beach: brucem: Yes, that's good.  nyef's question is the important one.
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2015-01-01T14:28:24Z nyef: #"n+1" is specified by CLIM, but can be finessed because it is a detail down at the port level.
2015-01-01T14:29:01Z beach: It is reasonable to have a single process whose sole purpose is to distribute events to applications, because then one application can not consume all resources for other applications.
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2015-01-01T14:29:34Z nyef: beach: I call that process "the X server". d-:
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2015-01-01T14:30:01Z beach: nyef: Can't do that if several applications run in the same process, right?
2015-01-01T14:30:07Z brucem: nyef: there is a flag (in DUIM) that gets passed into some things own-thread? ... and that controls whether or not a new thread is created for a frame ... (note: frame, not sheet)
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2015-01-01T14:30:44Z nyef: brucem: So... what happens with sheets? Do all of the sheets in a frame share an event queue?
2015-01-01T14:30:55Z brucem: nyef: Not sure yet ... sifting through the code.
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2015-01-01T14:31:38Z brucem: nyef: There's no one that knows this code well ... :) (I only know it because I've been thinking of writing an OpenGL and a terminal pair of backends for it)
2015-01-01T14:31:42Z nyef: beach: That might be a tricky case, or it might not. Right now my event handling is still stuck at the "one window, no distribution" stage.
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2015-01-01T14:32:59Z beach: nyef: I am thinking several collaborating applications in a single process, so they must not be able to block one another.
2015-01-01T14:33:19Z brucem: nyef: there are call-in-frame and apply-in-frame functions for crossing thread boundaries safely ... I'm still tracking down some other details.
2015-01-01T14:34:01Z nyef: brucem: Sounds like inter-thread marshaling for commands...
2015-01-01T14:34:11Z brucem: nyef: correct.
2015-01-01T14:34:40Z nyef: I'd look to see where the event queue is associated to a new sheet.
2015-01-01T14:36:14Z akkad: they should make a kickstarter to buy capi to opensource it
2015-01-01T14:36:19Z nyef: ... ohh... What if event queues were like mirrors, somewhat dynamically associable and if a sheet doesn't have an event queue you use the queue for the oldest ancestor?
2015-01-01T14:36:34Z nyef: Err... The closest ancestor with a queue, that is.
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2015-01-01T14:36:50Z beach: Interesting idea.
2015-01-01T14:37:45Z beach: nyef: So if the event queue is shared, does that mean that a READ from a particular sheet S must go through the events in that queue and remove the ones with S as a client?
2015-01-01T14:37:47Z nyef: Which would tend to roll up to frame-top-level-sheet...
2015-01-01T14:38:49Z brucem: nyef: found this comment:
2015-01-01T14:39:05Z brucem:  // Having the event queue (and handler) in each sheet allows different sheets in the same frame to have different event queues and handlers. --- Would it be better to just get the event queue from the frame?
2015-01-01T14:39:51Z nyef: brucem: Interesting, in that it says "allows", implying "does not require".
2015-01-01T14:40:18Z nyef: And yet the "would it be better" bit implies "we don't take advantage of this flexibility".
2015-01-01T14:40:35Z beach: Seems that way, yes.
2015-01-01T14:40:44Z brucem: nyef: well ... let me demonstrate just how flexible this is ...
2015-01-01T14:40:50Z brucem: let me just find a GitHub URL for it.
2015-01-01T14:40:53Z nyef: beach: When you do a READ-GESTURE or whatever, it goes into a loop that does READ-EVENT / HANDLE-EVENT until there is an event in the input buffer for the sheet. Is that what you're asking about?
2015-01-01T14:41:00Z beach: Yes.
2015-01-01T14:41:26Z beach: Thanks.
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2015-01-01T14:41:39Z nyef: Basically, input streams have both an event queue AND an input buffer.
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2015-01-01T14:41:58Z brucem: nyef: https://github.com/dylan-lang/opendylan/blob/master/sources/environment/framework/frame-reuse.dylan#L444 ... an experiment from 1998.
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2015-01-01T14:42:36Z brucem: nyef: that's from the IDE side of the code which is built on DUIM.
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2015-01-01T14:44:06Z brucem: nyef: Okay ... found a better answer. Each frame has an event queue. When a sheet is attached to the frame, it tends to (always?) get the sheet event queue set to the frame's event queue ...
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2015-01-01T14:44:52Z beach: brucem: That's clear.  Thanks.
2015-01-01T14:44:56Z brucem: nyef: sadly, the answer on "Does each sheet get a thread of its own or not?" is ... "not clear, but right now, maybe not, but that might be by design or due to Harlequin shutting down and there's no way to know."
2015-01-01T14:45:05Z nyef: That makes a certain amount of sense. Pretty much any mention of such a mechanism is missing from the CLIM II spec we've been working from.
2015-01-01T14:45:41Z nyef: You only need a thread per sheet when each sheet has its own separate event queue.
2015-01-01T14:45:53Z brucem: nyef: well, in DUIM code, I found something with a comment that the constants had come from Genera and no one knew what they meant anymore. :)
2015-01-01T14:46:02Z nyef: Heh!
2015-01-01T14:46:04Z beach: Yes, and I now know how the McCLIM implementers managed to figure it out anyway: they peeked at a commercial CLIM implementation.
2015-01-01T14:46:27Z brucem: nyef: so pretty sure that someone on DUIM was also looking at CLIM from Harlequin ... and probably even further back.
2015-01-01T14:46:44Z nyef: beach: Or found a hint or two in the copious email archives of CLIM stuff.
2015-01-01T14:46:54Z beach: Possibly.
2015-01-01T14:47:00Z brucem: nyef: I know this is also the case with one of our compiler backends (HARP) which had comments converted from CL from 1989 ...
2015-01-01T14:47:17Z nyef: So, constants that came from genera?
2015-01-01T14:47:24Z beach: OK, so might as well go for a single event queue per application.
2015-01-01T14:47:39Z nyef: beach: Yeah, this simplifies things quite a bit.
2015-01-01T14:47:50Z nyef: brucem: Thank you for hunting this down for us! (-:
2015-01-01T14:47:54Z brucem: nyef: the constants were some Postscript font metrics for Apple Laserwriters.
2015-01-01T14:48:10Z nyef: Heh.
2015-01-01T14:48:27Z brucem: nyef: well, I just spent some of the last 2 weeks working on converting some 500 pages of DUIM docs to our more modern format. :/
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2015-01-01T14:50:38Z pjb: wasamasa: I'm afraid that GNU emacs will surpass all emacsen in ergonomy and depth and width of applications and libraries, because it has 30 years of use and development behind him, while no other emacs can match that, even those from Lisp Machine (unfortunately).
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2015-01-01T14:51:14Z wasamasa: pjb: well, the ecosystem is there, but I bet there are some things that aren't there yet
2015-01-01T14:51:22Z wasamasa: pjb: like the one debugger perk I've mentioned
2015-01-01T14:51:28Z wasamasa tries finding a screenshot
2015-01-01T14:51:35Z brucem: beach, nyef: I'm happy to sort out other things ... but we don't have all of CLIM. We lack presentations, output streams (I think) and some other details ... but I know a good bit of the code well enough to at least find answers.
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2015-01-01T14:52:10Z beach: brucem: Yeah, great!  Thanks again.
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2015-01-01T14:55:54Z brucem: beach, nyef: one thing that is tricky in the implementation is that it supports multiple repaint models and so on.
2015-01-01T14:56:03Z brucem: beach, nyef: is that specified or clear in CLIM?
2015-01-01T14:56:21Z beach: brucem: What is a "repaint model"?
2015-01-01T14:56:36Z brucem: beach: "Who does the repaint?"
2015-01-01T14:56:58Z brucem: beach: DUIM can do it ... or it can just let the underlying port handle it.
2015-01-01T14:57:17Z beach: I don't recall seeing anything like that in CLIM II.
2015-01-01T14:57:38Z brucem: beach: that matters for something where the port wants to manage the actual drawing process itself rather than accepting writes at any point.
2015-01-01T14:57:39Z nyef: CLIM specifies an "immediate repainting mixin" which pushes it to the "port event-handling thread" and another mixin which just queues the event.
2015-01-01T14:57:54Z brucem: nyef: hmm, I think that's different.
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2015-01-01T15:00:35Z brucem: nyef: yeah ... immediate-repainting-mixin for us is just to have queue-repaint immediately issue repaint-sheet on the sheet.
2015-01-01T15:01:00Z nyef: Pretty much, yeah.
2015-01-01T15:01:28Z nyef: But it gets handled by whatever thread queues the events, not by the per-frame thread.
2015-01-01T15:01:42Z nyef: Better make sure that it doesn't throw an error, though.
2015-01-01T15:02:27Z brucem: nyef: what I meant is that we have a port-handles-repaint? ... and that's taking 2 arguments, port and pane .. and some panes override it, not just ports.
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2015-01-01T15:03:28Z brucem: nyef: that comes into play when you're doing repaint-sheet ... that repaints the sheet itself, and then walks through the sheet-children and paints each of them ...
2015-01-01T15:04:17Z brucem: nyef: you check port-handles-repaint? on each child ... and use that to control whether or not you repaint that child sheet.
2015-01-01T15:05:12Z nyef: Hunh. Just realized something. If all of your repaint is done in terms of output-records, the repaint pretty much can't throw an error, because user code doesn't get a chance to run during repaint.
2015-01-01T15:05:35Z brucem: nyef: since repaint happens in handle-repaint ... you can either let DUIM (or whatever) control the repaint as just described ... or if you're passing dirty / expose info to the port, then it can handle it and call handle-repaint.
2015-01-01T15:06:18Z brucem: nyef: hmm, wonder if that's a difference between CLIM and DUIM (repainting / output records / etc)
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2015-01-01T15:06:43Z nyef: It might be, it might not be.
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2015-01-01T15:11:20Z brucem: nyef: just looked. there's a comment in the repainting for a gadget record that asks whether or not it should be checking port-handles-repaint? but for now, it is just calling repaint-sheet with a full damage rect.
2015-01-01T15:12:02Z brucem: nyef: nm ... that whole file is commented out.
2015-01-01T15:12:27Z wasamasa: pjb: http://web.archive.org/web/20120812221916/http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/source-code-debugging.gif
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2015-01-01T15:22:55Z brucem: nyef: Just found some other clearly translated code ... refers to funcall and is from 1994 (DUIM first started to happen in 1996).
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2015-01-01T16:39:48Z nyef: Heh. So, it turns out that my top-level sheet class can't adopt child sheets. Oops. (-:
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2015-01-01T16:53:39Z nyef: clhs defgeneric
2015-01-01T16:53:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm
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2015-01-01T17:02:08Z mrkkrp: Bindings for gnu readline are almost done. Since it's the first time I do this kind of project, there may be something wrong with this code. If anyone has a minute to glance over it and express some criticism, I will be readlly thankful. I can only say that it works way better than linedit (for me) and will have complete docs with examples.
2015-01-01T17:02:15Z mrkkrp: https://github.com/mrkkrp/cl-readline
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2015-01-01T17:33:05Z stassats: you should use groveler for the constants
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2015-01-01T17:40:15Z mrkkrp: stassats, I will take a look at it
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2015-01-01T17:52:10Z mrkkrp: stassats, what do you mean by 'constants'? technically there are only variables. some of them shouldn't be modified manually. or you're talking about readline states?
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2015-01-01T17:52:53Z stassats: yes
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2015-01-01T17:55:56Z stassats: mrkkrp: (and (not (null prompt)) (typep prompt 'string-designator)) => (and prompt (typep prompt 'string-designator))
2015-01-01T17:56:37Z stassats: or rather, the whole thing (if prompt (string prompt) "")
2015-01-01T17:56:43Z stassats: no reason in eating type errors
2015-01-01T17:57:35Z stassats: and so on in many places, don't just check for types and return NIL
2015-01-01T17:58:02Z stassats: unless you want people running to you "i called it, it returned successfully but it doesn't work"
2015-01-01T17:58:23Z mrkkrp: you're right, it should fail loudly
2015-01-01T18:00:04Z stassats: in unwind-protect, the clean up form has an implicit progn
2015-01-01T18:01:16Z stassats: mrkkrp: cond-eql => case
2015-01-01T18:01:40Z mrkkrp: on which line?
2015-01-01T18:01:50Z stassats: you don't know your code?
2015-01-01T18:01:56Z stassats: 791
2015-01-01T18:02:06Z mrkkrp: I don't remember using cond-eql
2015-01-01T18:02:08Z stassats: and you should put C definitions into a separate file
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2015-01-01T18:02:34Z mrkkrp: wait, I should create new TODO list :)
2015-01-01T18:02:36Z stassats: with-new-keymap desires an unwind-protect
2015-01-01T18:03:46Z mrkkrp: ah, I thought I have fixed 'register-function', yes, it needs 'case' just like 'register-hook'
2015-01-01T18:04:12Z mrkkrp: 'register-function' should be rewritten
2015-01-01T18:04:24Z mrkkrp: it should handle custom function for completion
2015-01-01T18:04:35Z stassats: funmap-names has unwind-protect, but for some reason calls  (foreign-funcall "free" :pointer ptr :void) instead of cffi:foreign-free
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2015-01-01T18:05:45Z stassats: in some twisted theory, an implementation may allocate memory by some other means, so i guess calling FREE is safe
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2015-01-01T18:08:21Z francogrex: hi and happy new year. Some guy posted a java code on 'stackoverflow' about how to optimize a code that I translated into lisp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/145034 it's supposed to print the divisors or 'triangular numbers' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_number). Could this code be made to go faster?
2015-01-01T18:08:21Z minion: francogrex, memo from pjb: you've not defined "best" when deleting bytes in a file.  For me, the "best" would be to simply mark those bytes as deleted.
2015-01-01T18:08:21Z minion: francogrex, memo from pjb: You can of course overwrite data in a CL file. That's what :direction :io is for.  Don't believe the naysayers.
2015-01-01T18:08:53Z nyef: francogrex: Why do you set your pastes to expire?
2015-01-01T18:09:13Z francogrex: nyef: because mostly they are rubbish :)
2015-01-01T18:09:18Z nyef: ... so?
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2015-01-01T18:09:33Z francogrex: they won't benefit the community in general
2015-01-01T18:09:41Z nyef: ... so?
2015-01-01T18:09:58Z stassats: it may receive my glorious annotation with a glorious solution
2015-01-01T18:10:39Z francogrex: pjb: I know about overight option... marked as deleted is a good option, I think that's what RDBMS do in general
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2015-01-01T18:10:55Z francogrex: nyef: stassats ok I can keep them online
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2015-01-01T18:14:41Z stassats: so you're just counting divisors?
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2015-01-01T18:27:53Z stassats: francogrex: so, my function runs in 0.015
2015-01-01T18:27:59Z stassats: but i won't show it
2015-01-01T18:29:13Z francogrex: yes counting divisors. I wrote this in lisp transformed it to java with linj and was going to post a slight improvement on SO for the guy
2015-01-01T18:30:19Z francogrex: but he was shamed and decided to delete his post probably: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27730921/how-can-i-make-my-code-work-faster
2015-01-01T18:31:01Z stassats: and your function runs in 200 seconds
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2015-01-01T18:31:29Z stassats: so, mine is just 13333 times faster
2015-01-01T18:31:41Z francogrex: that's a lot. The idea of the man was to find the number with >= 500 divisors
2015-01-01T18:31:57Z francogrex: stassats: did you use hashing?
2015-01-01T18:32:03Z stassats: that would be https://projecteuler.net/problem=12
2015-01-01T18:32:14Z stassats: who asks projecteuler questions on stackoverflow?
2015-01-01T18:32:27Z stassats: francogrex: no, just some math
2015-01-01T18:32:37Z francogrex: the sneaky bastard!
2015-01-01T18:32:55Z francogrex: that's why it was removed
2015-01-01T18:33:15Z francogrex: I would like to see the other languages codes
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2015-01-01T18:35:08Z stassats: you can see lots of different solutions on the PE forum
2015-01-01T18:35:14Z francogrex: I see that improvement of the algorithm is more crucial than using 'brute force'
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2015-01-01T18:35:32Z francogrex: if I solve it first
2015-01-01T18:35:39Z nyef: "Don't force it, get a larger hammer."
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2015-01-01T18:36:22Z stassats: just a hint: when it comes to division you probably need to think about prime numbers
2015-01-01T18:37:16Z stassats: although there are different methods
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2015-01-01T18:38:00Z francogrex: http://www.mathblog.dk/triangle-number-with-more-than-500-divisors/
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2015-01-01T18:38:44Z francogrex is ashamed bc he's cheating
2015-01-01T18:38:54Z Grue`: this is an easy problem, just use a formula for triangle numbers and prime number factorization
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2015-01-01T18:42:36Z francogrex: stassats: ok you don't want to show your solution but the 0.015 sec was not the brute force was it?
2015-01-01T18:42:50Z stassats: depends on how you define brute force
2015-01-01T18:42:54Z stassats: it wasn't O(1)
2015-01-01T18:43:25Z francogrex: i see that you already mentioned above that you use math...
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2015-01-01T18:47:37Z Pessimist: if I learn common lisp can I pick other lisp dialects easily? Like emacs lisp which is the main reason I want to learn lisp
2015-01-01T18:47:48Z stassats: yes
2015-01-01T18:48:29Z francogrex: Pessimist: your logic is non-standard to say the least
2015-01-01T18:49:27Z nyef: Pessimist: If you want to learn lisp in order to be able to work with emacs lisp, start with emacs lisp. Seriously.
2015-01-01T18:49:28Z Pessimist: francogrex, what do you mean? I just wanted to know if there are many common elements all lisp dialects share
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2015-01-01T18:49:57Z francogrex: if you want to lear elisp, start with elisp
2015-01-01T18:49:58Z Pessimist: Ok, I will, sorry for the dumb question
2015-01-01T18:50:18Z nyef: That would depend on if you consider Dylan to still be a lisp dialect.
2015-01-01T18:50:42Z nyef: (Or Logo, for that matter.)
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2015-01-01T18:53:07Z stassats: common lisp has better books
2015-01-01T18:55:07Z wasamasa: Pessimist: you should totally learn elisp
2015-01-01T18:55:14Z wasamasa: Pessimist: even if it's just to get hooked
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2015-01-01T18:56:51Z nyef: ... why am I looking at project euler?
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2015-01-01T18:58:31Z stassats: cause it's fun
2015-01-01T18:58:37Z nyef: Oh, right. I was trying to write an implementation of NOTE-SPACE-REQUIREMENTS-CHANGED and found that everything I tried to touch didn't exist or didn't do what I wanted. /-:
2015-01-01T18:59:02Z stassats: it got too complicated for me, so i don't look at it anymore
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2015-01-01T19:04:35Z francogrex: i wonder which is more fun solving on project euler, answering on stackoverflow, or reading a book about programming
2015-01-01T19:04:45Z stassats: neither
2015-01-01T19:05:01Z francogrex: rosetta code?
2015-01-01T19:05:58Z stassats: sipping cocktails on a beach
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2015-01-01T19:06:24Z Grue`: re: "i see that you already mentioned above that you use math..." do you even know who Euler is?
2015-01-01T19:06:54Z stassats: a number?
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2015-01-01T19:07:23Z White__Flame: isn't he an Edmonton hockey player?
2015-01-01T19:07:56Z nyef: Wasn't he that "Ferris" guy who took a day off?
2015-01-01T19:08:26Z stassats: nyef: to solve math problems?
2015-01-01T19:08:33Z nyef: Something like that.
2015-01-01T19:08:51Z White__Flame: nyef:  No, that has something to do with magnetics, not numbers
2015-01-01T19:09:00Z francogrex: sipping cocktail on a beach with 3 supermodels indulging your every desire ... but yeah let's stay in the real world not the fictional one
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2015-01-01T19:09:58Z nyef: White_Flame: No, but that was a nicely ironic twist on where I was trying to go with that. d-:
2015-01-01T19:10:34Z francogrex: Euler yeah he was ok. My favourite mathematician was Fermat. I reecently saw a documentary about a UK genious who solved his riddle that was unsolvable for over 300 years
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2015-01-01T19:16:32Z Krystof: a total genious
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2015-01-01T19:20:11Z unibovin: what is an example of a proper call to assq
2015-01-01T19:20:53Z _death: (assq 'foo '((quux . zot) (foo . bar) ))
2015-01-01T19:21:17Z _death: in CL there's no assq, but assoc.. you'd pass :test #'eq to replicate
2015-01-01T19:22:15Z unibovin: oh, I'm using scheme, should I find that channel?
2015-01-01T19:22:23Z _death: yes
2015-01-01T19:22:25Z Shinmera: That'll be #scheme
2015-01-01T19:22:33Z unibovin: thank you
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2015-01-01T19:33:43Z nyef: Okay, if I have a mirrored sheet, and someone calls NOTE-SHEET-REGION-CHANGED, MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN needs to handle that by altering the mirror. But the change to the mirror isn't official until a ConfigureNotify comes in for the mirror, at which point the bounds could be different to what was requested, requiring a change to the sheet region again...
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2015-01-01T20:48:53Z nyef: ... if the sheet-region is changed to what the mirror already has as the sheet-region, then it the note-sheet-region-changed method doesn't need to do anything.
2015-01-01T20:50:29Z nyef: So, something does a (setf sheet-region). This causes note-sheet-region-changed on the mirror mixin to fire off a resize-window request. There's an override-redirect on, so the resize doesn't happen immediately, so the sheet region desyncs from the mirror region.
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2015-01-01T20:51:27Z nyef: From there, the window manager declines to allow the window to change size... Does it fire back a synthetic configure-notify with the old size?
2015-01-01T20:52:04Z nyef: Alternately, the window gets resized, and a configure-notify comes in with the new (possibly different) window size.
2015-01-01T20:53:01Z nyef: The event handler updates the mirror with the new geometry, and then sets the sheet region and fires off note-sheet-region-changed...
2015-01-01T20:53:36Z nyef: There's no need to update the sheet region if it hasn't changed, so that's one point at which to break the loop.
2015-01-01T20:54:05Z nyef: Next, the sheet-transformation is used to move the window, and has similar semantics...
2015-01-01T20:55:19Z nyef: ... except that we then have the scenario of a move-and-resize, which is two separate operations. We end up with two configure requests in flight at once.
2015-01-01T20:56:37Z nyef: So, fire off the move-window, then fire off the resize-window. The configure-notify comes in on the move-window with the OLD size, causing the size change to be reverted.
2015-01-01T20:57:24Z nyef: Then the configure-notify for the new size comes in... Hrm.
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2015-01-01T20:58:18Z nyef: No, when the configure-notify comes in the mirror would need to be checked for what it thinks its size is, which would be the old size, and thus not stomp the new size on the sheet.
2015-01-01T20:58:55Z nyef: Ugh. That's sketchy, but should work. /-:
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2015-01-01T21:03:39Z nyef: ... but now I need to cache the window geometry as an attribute on the CLX window object.
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2015-01-01T21:14:24Z wooden_: is there any way to put line breaks in the control string argument to #'format, in order to keep the line length of the source code reasonable?
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2015-01-01T21:16:05Z White_Flame: (format out (concatenate 'string "this is" "a really" "long set" "of format" "string parts") ...)
2015-01-01T21:16:06Z |3b|: clhs ~\
2015-01-01T21:16:07Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ~\.
2015-01-01T21:16:44Z |3b|: ~ followed by newline maybe?
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2015-01-01T21:17:02Z wooden_: |3b|: yeah.  http://lisptips.com/post/11268955844/multi-line-format-control-strings
2015-01-01T21:17:34Z wooden_: White_Flame, |3b|: thank you.
2015-01-01T21:18:35Z White_Flame: I don't think SLIME will indent ~#\newline for you, though
2015-01-01T21:19:12Z White_Flame: I wish there was a standard short way to concatenate literal strings, so they'd be syntactially supported well in the source text without any games, but it's easy enough to roll your own
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2015-01-01T21:33:25Z lavokad: hi, i ended up reading a post where they compare lisp and elixir macros and can't think a way to find an answer.
2015-01-01T21:33:53Z lavokad: "Lisp macros have a major benefit in that lisps are truly homoiconic so it is much easier to construct the resultant syntactic form. Also they allow you to create new syntax which elixir does not."
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2015-01-01T21:34:12Z lavokad: i dont get the last sentence
2015-01-01T21:34:32Z lavokad: lets say in lisp it is: (loop a b c...)
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2015-01-01T21:34:49Z lavokad: in elixir it would be: loop a, b, c ...
2015-01-01T21:34:53Z nyef: (Clearly, the old-style LOOP, combined with the use of symbol-macros...)
2015-01-01T21:35:09Z lavokad: both created new syntaxes..or what is it i dont get there
2015-01-01T21:36:11Z lavokad: nyef, could you exapand a bit more about you mean
2015-01-01T21:36:21Z nyef: clhs loop
2015-01-01T21:36:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2015-01-01T21:37:14Z nyef: There's no loop keywords in there, so it's the old-style loop, and the only point of having bare symbol references in such a case is if they have side-effects, which means that they must be symbol-macros (thus, expand to compound forms).
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2015-01-01T21:37:51Z nyef: I'm unfamiliar with "elixir" apart from the concepts of beverage and medication.
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2015-01-01T21:50:34Z Zhivago: Is hexstream still upset about his defective code?
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2015-01-01T21:53:18Z Shinmera: Probably, but there's nothing on his twitter at least.
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2015-01-01T21:55:47Z nyef: I love the term "backquotegate", if only because it really shouldn't be that big of a deal.
2015-01-01T21:57:48Z Shinmera: most things shouldn't be as much of a deal as they are, but anyway.
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2015-01-01T23:46:51Z yenda: Is there a way to apply an argument to a list of functions ?
2015-01-01T23:46:51Z minion: yenda, memo from pjb: you're wrong. clisp developers didn't mix development and politics. They are just German, ie. traumatised by Jewish persecution post-WWII.  Jews are imposing on them a big culpability sentiment.  That makes them do silly things.
2015-01-01T23:46:51Z minion: yenda, memo from pjb: besides, nothing prevents you to fork clisp to make a cleaned up version.  There's a commercial CL+IDE implementation for MS-Windows which is derived from clisp.
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2015-01-01T23:50:04Z yenda: pjb: thanks for the memo, good point, I'm using sbcl anyway atm
2015-01-01T23:50:04Z Bicyclidine: what the hell, pjb...
2015-01-01T23:50:12Z Bicyclidine: yenda: (mapcar (lambda (f) (apply f args)) functions)
2015-01-01T23:50:47Z yenda: thanks Bicyclidine, I was close
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2015-01-01T23:52:02Z Xach: i did that so often i made something like funcall but backwards and called it callfun
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2015-01-01T23:58:32Z yenda: I did that because it's actually a vector of closures : (map 'vector (lambda (f) (funcall f input-values)) neuron-layer)
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