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ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T00:03:05Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T00:03:19Z jasom: for all we know, he shadowed it already 2014-12-24T00:04:52Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T00:04:57Z nyef: Breaks compile-time optimization unless he shadowed it with a macro that expands to the original version. 2014-12-24T00:05:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:06:06Z arnaudga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:08:22Z tadni quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T00:09:48Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:10:42Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:11:51Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T00:12:29Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:13:57Z tharugrim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:14:27Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:15:37Z tharugrim joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:16:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T00:17:52Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:20:34Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:23:45Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:24:30Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:25:44Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:28:01Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2014-12-24T00:30:00Z zRecursive: After installing some stuffs, CCL reports /usr/local/lib/libgtk-3.so.0: Undefined symbol "g_type_add_instance_private", how can i fix such a issue ? 2014-12-24T00:30:55Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:31:06Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T00:31:10Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-24T00:31:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:33:16Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:37:13Z srcerer joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:39:22Z jasom didn't think ccl used gtk 2014-12-24T00:39:38Z arademaker left #lisp 2014-12-24T00:39:45Z jasom: zRecursive: what were you doing when ccl reported that? 2014-12-24T00:40:52Z |3b| would fix it by either arranging for the lib to have that symbol, or arranging for "some stuffs" to not try to use it 2014-12-24T00:41:24Z zRecursive: jasom: ~/ccl/fx86cl -n -Q -l Foo -e '(progn (Bar) (ccl:quit))' 2014-12-24T00:42:55Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:43:39Z |3b|: zRecursive: i think the point was "what are you loading" not "what command did you run" 2014-12-24T00:43:56Z |3b|: if it doesn't do that without the -l Foo, -l Foo is probably the problem 2014-12-24T00:45:12Z zRecursive: |3b|: right, ccl '(print 9)' works. 2014-12-24T00:46:11Z |3b|: google suggests that errors implies "glib2 is too old", and /usr/local/... suggests risk of mismatched libs 2014-12-24T00:46:13Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-12-24T00:46:21Z zRecursive: But Foo is just a lisp file with some functions i need to call 2014-12-24T00:47:22Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:47:30Z Bicyclidine: does Foo load some graphics library 2014-12-24T00:47:45Z zRecursive: no 2014-12-24T00:47:50Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:48:00Z dagnachew joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:48:05Z Bicyclidine: well, paste it anyway, it's obviously the source of what's happening 2014-12-24T00:48:53Z zRecursive: Bicyclidine: sorry, it is long and private file 2014-12-24T00:49:01Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:49:16Z Bicyclidine: can't help beyond what 3B said then 2014-12-24T00:49:32Z jasom: Google shows me a lot of instances of that error on various gtk3 executables on linux starting from fall 2013 2014-12-24T00:49:40Z jasom: I would check that your gtk and glib are both up-to-date 2014-12-24T00:49:47Z zRecursive: I works very well before installing those stuffs 2014-12-24T00:50:16Z jasom: "those stuffs"? 2014-12-24T00:50:41Z REPLeffect quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:50:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:51:05Z zRecursive: i am not sure as i have done some installation on a freebsd-9.3 box, i.e. `pkg install erlang`, etc. 2014-12-24T00:51:27Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:51:52Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:52:10Z zRecursive: i guess those things quietly upgraded libggtk3 2014-12-24T00:52:33Z |3b|: in /usr/local/? 2014-12-24T00:52:43Z zRecursive: /usr/local/lib 2014-12-24T00:53:06Z |3b|: right, the place unix systems usually don't put things 2014-12-24T00:53:17Z zRecursive: pkg which /usr/local/lib/libgtk-3.so.0.1400.5 => /usr/local/lib/libgtk-3.so.0.1400.5 was installed by package gtk3-3.14.5_1 2014-12-24T00:53:59Z jasom: I think freebsd ports puts stuff in /usr/local 2014-12-24T00:54:07Z |3b|: yeah, was just seeing that 2014-12-24T00:54:36Z jasom: That's a BSDism, so "unix systems usually don't put things" is false-ish 2014-12-24T00:54:46Z |3b|: right, i'll retract that claim :) 2014-12-24T00:55:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T00:55:36Z |3b|: either way, not a lisp problem without at least some hint of what your code does that suggests ccl should load libgtk 2014-12-24T00:56:03Z jasom: If BSD has an equivalent of LD_PRELOAD, check that too 2014-12-24T00:56:06Z |3b|: (and probably not even then, if it is a library version mismatch) 2014-12-24T00:56:32Z jasom: oh wait, when not loading "Foo" it didn't happen, so not LD_PRELOAD 2014-12-24T00:56:39Z REPLeffect joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:56:46Z jasom: zRecursive: I would suggest looking for any ffi calls in Foo 2014-12-24T00:56:52Z zRecursive: i guess it is a "library version mismatch" 2014-12-24T00:56:58Z modula joined #lisp 2014-12-24T00:56:59Z |3b|: search Foo for uses of cffi, loading asdf systems, direct calls to ccl's ffi, etc 2014-12-24T00:57:13Z zRecursive: jasom: no ffi in Foo.lisp 2014-12-24T00:57:17Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T00:57:18Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2014-12-24T00:57:51Z Hexstream left #lisp 2014-12-24T00:58:13Z zRecursive: i am sure there are just some functions we often need to use 2014-12-24T00:58:42Z zRecursive: `grep -i ffi Foo.lisp` proved it 2014-12-24T00:59:19Z |3b|: did you grep for open-shared-library ? 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along with being very portable (to strange places like haiku and p9) 2014-12-24T02:23:13Z Bicyclidine: I don't think any of the others are public domain. and i'm not sure anything runs on either of those 2014-12-24T02:23:14Z akkad: ecl? 2014-12-24T02:24:09Z akkad: I have no x86 hardware and ecl appears to work well on most things with an MMU 32bit+ 2014-12-24T02:24:11Z akkad: BE and LE 2014-12-24T02:25:15Z akkad: I've not tried to build it on the BE byte unaligned arch, vax 2014-12-24T02:25:29Z Bicyclidine: http://ecls.sourceforge.net/new-manual/pr01s06.html 2014-12-24T02:27:12Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:28:44Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:30:06Z frkout quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T02:30:13Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:30:33Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:30:58Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:32:24Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:34:34Z Bicyclid1ne joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:34:44Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:34:50Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:35:13Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:35:22Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:35:58Z enitiz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:46:47Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-24T02:47:13Z cmack`` joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:47:14Z kapil__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:49:47Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:50:13Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:50:17Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:51:09Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-rc1) 2014-12-24T02:51:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: UCW still worth messing with? I was hoping for something that can do continuation magic. 2014-12-24T02:51:29Z eudoxia: probably not 2014-12-24T02:51:30Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:51:44Z eudoxia: Just Use Clack™ 2014-12-24T02:52:05Z nightshade427 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:52:08Z cmack`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T02:53:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: eudoxia, Clack can do the same sort of thing as SeaSide or the Racket Web Server? http://www.seaside.st/about/examples/counter 2014-12-24T02:54:20Z eudoxia: that's frankly awful, reloading an entire page to increment a number? 2014-12-24T02:54:25Z eudoxia: an inscrutable query parameter? 2014-12-24T02:54:49Z eudoxia: here's an example web-based counter http://clacklisp.org/doc/clack.middleware.session.html 2014-12-24T02:55:21Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T02:55:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: eudoxia, Does the back buttona work autimatically? 2014-12-24T02:55:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: button work automatically* 2014-12-24T02:55:58Z eudoxia: no, i don't think so 2014-12-24T02:56:06Z eudoxia: anyways, magic is usually overrated 2014-12-24T02:56:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm hoping for something where I can do things like this (process-data (get-form-1) (get-form-2)) and it just does the right thing. 2014-12-24T02:56:20Z eudoxia: simple and explicit is easier to maintain 2014-12-24T02:57:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: I want MY code to be simple, not the webserver's. 2014-12-24T03:01:26Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:05:28Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T03:06:24Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:11:06Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:13:07Z Kanae joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:14:34Z vinleod quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T03:18:21Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.2) 2014-12-24T03:18:37Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T03:19:22Z sismondi quit (Quit: sismondi) 2014-12-24T03:20:42Z kbtr quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-24T03:21:00Z kbtr joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:22:08Z drmeister: This never occurred to me before but what should be in the function slot of a symbol like CL:SETQ? In ECL the function slot of specials contains the symbol SPECIAL. 2014-12-24T03:22:21Z npatrick04 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:22:21Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:22:41Z Bicyclid1ne: "The value returned by fdefinition when fboundp returns true but the function-name denotes a macro or special form is not well-defined, but fdefinition does not signal an error. " 2014-12-24T03:22:54Z drmeister: SBCL has functions 2014-12-24T03:23:00Z nightshade427 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:23:04Z nyef: clhs symbol-function 2014-12-24T03:23:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm 2014-12-24T03:23:28Z nyef: "contents", read 'em and weep. Or rejoice. 2014-12-24T03:23:50Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-24T03:25:47Z drmeister: Thank you. Mine were not bound. 2014-12-24T03:27:34Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T03:27:39Z setheus joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:32:42Z BitPuffin: akkad: yeah ecl seems to be the main one that's portable (since it's not written in lisp), but that's lgpl (yuck :P) 2014-12-24T03:34:01Z nyef: Preliminary conclusion: Emacs based Lisp debugging modes may tend to suck. 2014-12-24T03:34:31Z nyef: Stronger hypothesis: Emacs based debugging modes generally may suck. 2014-12-24T03:35:31Z akkad: nyef if they sucked, they'd be worth somethin 2014-12-24T03:36:21Z akkad: Actually Clisp is probably the most portable that I've seen on netbsd 2014-12-24T03:37:17Z BitPuffin: that has an even worse license though :D 2014-12-24T03:37:23Z nyef: akkad: There's a big difference, though, between "lisp debuggers on emacs suck" and "all debuggers on emacs suck". 2014-12-24T03:37:39Z rme: all debuggers suck 2014-12-24T03:37:42Z akkad: nyef which debugger? 2014-12-24T03:37:44Z BitPuffin: also I suspect it's only portable to wherever gcc runs 2014-12-24T03:37:51Z BitPuffin: which would exclude p9 2014-12-24T03:38:21Z akkad: if you are on those platforms there's a high probability you're not doing real work 2014-12-24T03:38:38Z akkad: "we need scalability on our 68k next station!" 2014-12-24T03:39:03Z nyef: akkad: Currently? I've just been reading about the SLIME debugger and some Allegro debugger thing (ELI?), but I'm looking with an eye towards "what goes into an actually GOOD debugger?" 2014-12-24T03:39:26Z akkad: full stack debugger. 2014-12-24T03:39:28Z nyef: rme: Is that a necessary property of debuggers, though, or are there other forces at work? 2014-12-24T03:39:31Z akkad: emacs needs an IDA pro mode 2014-12-24T03:39:37Z BitPuffin: akkad: ah, there are people doing real work using plan9 2014-12-24T03:39:48Z BitPuffin: but you are right I am not one of them 2014-12-24T03:39:59Z BitPuffin: I simply want my language to be available there 2014-12-24T03:40:02Z akkad: plan9 on what hardware? 2014-12-24T03:40:19Z BitPuffin: and I was thinking maybe bootstrapping with cl 2014-12-24T03:40:22Z akkad: http://linbsd.org/rack.png all non-x86 2014-12-24T03:40:33Z BitPuffin: it runs on x85 2014-12-24T03:40:34Z BitPuffin: 6* 2014-12-24T03:41:09Z akkad: if you don't threads you have a couple of options 2014-12-24T03:41:42Z BitPuffin: "contains complete binaries for the x86 architecture" 2014-12-24T03:41:46Z BitPuffin: I don't 2014-12-24T03:41:47Z nyef: Oh, someone TOTALLY should do a 32-bit version of the 8085. (-: 2014-12-24T03:42:19Z nyef: akkad: What do you consider to be an "IDA pro mode"? 2014-12-24T03:42:19Z BitPuffin: I'm merely bootstrapping by writing a very non-performant don't care at all interpreter to run on the compiler itself to compile the compiler 2014-12-24T03:42:43Z akkad: nyef hexeditor + objdump with ISA translations and method identification 2014-12-24T03:42:45Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-24T03:43:00Z akkad: more for stepping through binaries 2014-12-24T03:43:11Z nyef: ... And what do you call "ISA translations" and "method identification"? 2014-12-24T03:43:32Z nyef: Are you looking for integration with a disassembler, or something more involved? 2014-12-24T03:43:44Z akkad: yeah disassembler 2014-12-24T03:44:17Z nyef: Because the SLIME debugger has some keybinding for opening a disassembly. 2014-12-24T03:44:32Z akkad: yeah I've seen it with (disassemble) I think 2014-12-24T03:44:48Z Bicyclid1ne: doesn't IDA have its own IDE 2014-12-24T03:44:50Z nyef: But I don't know how well it works generally, or in terms of the quality of the debugging experience. 2014-12-24T03:44:55Z xrash joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:44:59Z Bicyclid1ne: or... IunDE 2014-12-24T03:44:59Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T03:45:33Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:45:44Z nyef: Bicyclid1ne: That'd be a little far afield, given that the topic is lisp debuggers. d-: 2014-12-24T03:45:50Z akkad: never seen an ide in it 2014-12-24T03:46:49Z Bicyclid1ne: nyef: well akkad mentioned IDA specifically. i dunno. 2014-12-24T03:47:02Z Bicyclid1ne: people use it for polymorphic worms, surely lisp doesn't do anything more complicated 2014-12-24T03:47:05Z Bicyclid1ne is now known as Bicyclidine 2014-12-24T03:47:11Z akkad: ECB sort of windows with the same things. 2014-12-24T03:47:33Z akkad: tagging offsets, locations, instruction lookup 2014-12-24T03:47:37Z akkad: registers 2014-12-24T03:52:35Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:53:06Z nyef: Mmm. ECB didn't really impress me the one time I tried it, but that might be because I tried it on C code. 2014-12-24T03:53:25Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:53:55Z akkad: well the idea. yeah cscope was always my preference for c 2014-12-24T03:54:11Z nyef: (My "C" code has been known to badly confuse or outright break "intelligent" development environments.) 2014-12-24T03:57:41Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:57:56Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T03:58:50Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-12-24T03:59:14Z CrazyM4n quit (Quit: so that's how you do quit messages) 2014-12-24T03:59:43Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:01:01Z nell joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:02:47Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:04:20Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:14:18Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T04:14:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:14:56Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:18:17Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: continuation disappeared because everything crashed) 2014-12-24T04:20:43Z nyef: I suppose the next angle is the "debuggers are a tool of last resort, and little effort should be put into developing them beyond a certain minimum level of functionality". 2014-12-24T04:22:07Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:23:57Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:25:30Z kristof: do people really think that? 2014-12-24T04:25:33Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:28:27Z nyef: What do I tend to do with a debugger? Most of the time it's "look at the error message, pick a restart". Sometimes it's "look at the backtrace". Very occasionally I do more, like look at some values or fire up the inspector on something. 2014-12-24T04:30:24Z nyef: The exception is when I'm doing something at the assembly-code level. 2014-12-24T04:30:51Z nyef: And then I'm single-stepping the CPU, looking at registers, dumping memory contents, and so on. 2014-12-24T04:31:19Z akkad: Common Lisp on Java Using Rich's Experiment. 2014-12-24T04:31:29Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-24T04:32:05Z egp_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T04:32:08Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:33:00Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:36:37Z beach joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:36:42Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-12-24T04:36:45Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-12-24T04:36:47Z beach: :) 2014-12-24T04:37:22Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:37:32Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2014-12-24T04:40:43Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:43:02Z nyef: Okay, what if the point of advanced debugging functionality (beyond the bare minimum) is for working with code that is poorly designed in the first place? 2014-12-24T04:43:38Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:43:49Z beach: nyef: That's a strange thing to say. 2014-12-24T04:43:57Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:44:09Z nyef: Isn't it, though? 2014-12-24T04:44:23Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:45:01Z beach: I think of a debugger as helping the programmer figure out small mistakes, hopefully in otherwise well-designed code. 2014-12-24T04:49:04Z nyef: I'm having trouble seeing from that perspective, probably because I'm expecting other practices to remove the need for a debugger for that. 2014-12-24T04:49:43Z oGMo: you can't depend on the language to preclude you from writing the wrong thing 2014-12-24T04:50:51Z oGMo: a debugger is one tool among many to help you figure out why what you wrote isn't behaving as you expect 2014-12-24T04:50:52Z beach: nyef: What kind of pracctices? 2014-12-24T04:50:56Z beach: practices. 2014-12-24T04:51:06Z nyef: An automated test suite, for starters. 2014-12-24T04:51:29Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-24T04:51:50Z beach: I use (or would use) a debugger to figure our why the test fails. 2014-12-24T04:52:52Z npatrick04 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T04:52:54Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:53:48Z nyef: For me, for the most part, knowing the inputs, the expected outputs, and the error message is sufficient. 2014-12-24T04:53:54Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:54:24Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T04:54:27Z drmeister: You'll pry my debuggers from my cold, dead hands. 2014-12-24T04:55:34Z Zhivago: nyef: Generally I find instrumentation superior for diagnosis, but manual inspection can be useful for locating intermittent faults. 2014-12-24T04:55:40Z drmeister: As crappy and unreliable as they are, they complement inserting print statements into the code. 2014-12-24T04:55:50Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:55:54Z Zhivago: The severe drawback of manual inspection is non-repeatability. 2014-12-24T04:57:28Z drmeister: I would give a lot to have a debugger like the "Omniscient debugger" http://www.lambdacs.com/debugger/ 2014-12-24T04:57:50Z nyef: Right, for troubleshooting compiler output I'd absolutely want a good debugger, but a good machine-code debugger, not necessarily a source-level debugger. 2014-12-24T04:59:29Z drmeister: Debugging code is like figuring out what happened in a chemical reaction. Everything goes so fast and there is so much going on that you need to use every tool you can get your hands on along with your intuition and creativity to figure out what is going on. 2014-12-24T04:59:33Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T04:59:35Z Zhivago: For troubleshooting compiler output, I think I prefer good testing -- since you want reproducability. 2014-12-24T04:59:45Z Zhivago: For troubleshooting field issues, on the other hand ... 2014-12-24T05:00:13Z nyef: Zhivago: Until you have a test case for a particular failure, until you understand what it's going on, it's a "field issue". 2014-12-24T05:00:52Z Zhivago: If it's compiler output then it's highly reproducable, and you probably don't have much run-time state to inspect. 2014-12-24T05:02:49Z nikki93_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T05:02:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:02:58Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:03:44Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:03:55Z beach: nyef: Now I understand your reaction to my debugger proposal from a month or so ago much better. 2014-12-24T05:04:21Z brucem: beach: your debugger proposal? 2014-12-24T05:04:34Z drmeister: Does SLIME have any kind of autocompletion for symbols? It prints the lambda list once the symbol is complete but what about symbols as you type them? 2014-12-24T05:05:03Z nyef: drmeister: There's some option, but ISTR it being bound to M-Tab by default. I just use dabbrev-expand instead anyway. 2014-12-24T05:05:09Z beach: brucem: Yeah, not sure what else to call it. Let me find it for you... 2014-12-24T05:05:16Z nyef: Except in the REPL, there a TAB normally works. 2014-12-24T05:05:18Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T05:05:30Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:05:41Z drmeister: tab hmmm 2014-12-24T05:06:12Z drmeister: Wow, how does that work? 2014-12-24T05:06:23Z drmeister: Did I implement that? 2014-12-24T05:06:27Z oGMo: look for slime-fuzzy-indent-and-complete-symbol 2014-12-24T05:06:38Z nightshade427 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:06:57Z drmeister: I didn't implement that on purpose. That must be fortuitous mimicry of ECL. 2014-12-24T05:07:21Z beach: brucem: http://metamodular.com/sicl-debugger.pdf 2014-12-24T05:07:24Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:08:53Z beach: brucem: Now that I know that nyef does not use a debugger for debugging application code, and instead he uses it for debugging compiler output, that proposal is of course totally useless to him. 2014-12-24T05:09:28Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:09:43Z nyef: Whenever I find myself using a debugger to explore application code, it's almost always in conjunction with inadequate test coverage. 2014-12-24T05:09:49Z brucem: beach: ahh ... at a different level than I was thinking (but makes sense given SICL) 2014-12-24T05:10:51Z nyef: Also, ISTR one of my main concerns with this proposal being an apparent massive proliferation of per-thread data, on the order of one bit per (debuggable) function in the system. 2014-12-24T05:11:28Z nikki93 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T05:11:52Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:12:32Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:12:34Z nightshade427 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:12:43Z akkad: is there a way to see all the functions in a package? 2014-12-24T05:13:45Z nyef: akkad: You can easily enough make one with one of the package symbol iterators, BOUNDP, and FORMAT. 2014-12-24T05:15:44Z akkad: slime-indent-and-complete-symbol will have to do 2014-12-24T05:15:48Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-24T05:17:46Z Bicyclidine: (loop for x being the external-symbols of package when (fboundp x) collect x) 2014-12-24T05:20:22Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:20:48Z beach: Bicyclidine: You also need to check for functions named (SETF ...). 2014-12-24T05:22:50Z nyef: Ugh. Did I say BOUNDP? That was a thinko on my part. 2014-12-24T05:23:43Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:24:45Z Bicyclidine: (loop for x being the external-symbols of package when (fboundp x) collect x when (fboundp `(setf ,x)) collect `(setf ,x)) i guess 2014-12-24T05:26:54Z nyef: clhs fboundp 2014-12-24T05:26:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fbound.htm 2014-12-24T05:27:07Z nyef: Hrm. Yeah, that's plausible. 2014-12-24T05:27:11Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T05:27:20Z ASau` joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:27:20Z nyef: It'll also catch macros, but whatever. 2014-12-24T05:27:40Z akkad: it's cute we can't talk about LW but all doc links go to there... :P 2014-12-24T05:27:51Z Bicyclidine: they're not lw docs, they're lisp 2014-12-24T05:27:59Z Bicyclidine: and you can talk about lw, we just don't know anything about it 2014-12-24T05:28:31Z akkad: them staying in business avoids you a ton of 404s from your bot 2014-12-24T05:28:40Z Bicyclidine: (loop for x being the external-symbols of package when (and (fboundp x) (not (macro-function x)) (not (special-operator-p x))) collect x when (and (fboundp `(setf ,x)) (not (macro-function `(setf ,x)) (not (special-operator-p `(setf ,x)))) collect `(setf ,x)) i guess 2014-12-24T05:28:56Z akkad: thanks 2014-12-24T05:29:13Z kristof: ... is that clearer outside of a loop macro? 2014-12-24T05:29:29Z Bicyclidine: at that point, maybe 2014-12-24T05:30:14Z Bicyclidine: probably (defun bound-as-a-function-and-not-some-other-crap-p (name) (and (fboundp name) etc)) 2014-12-24T05:30:47Z nyef: Might be better to collect the name anyway, but indicate somehow that it's a function or a macro or whatever. 2014-12-24T05:30:47Z oGMo: fansocboundp 2014-12-24T05:31:06Z zadock joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:31:43Z Bicyclidine: you know what's nice? that documentation thing gigamonkeys wrote, where it starts a hunchentoot server with all the dynamic docs in your image. shame it didn't catch on 2014-12-24T05:32:16Z oGMo: Bicyclidine: manifest .. i'd hoped it'd be developed a bit further than it was 2014-12-24T05:32:37Z Bicyclidine: like how? 2014-12-24T05:33:50Z oGMo: something that turned its output into more complete documentation 2014-12-24T05:34:16Z Bicyclidine: oh, like markup in the docstrings? 2014-12-24T05:34:40Z oGMo: rather, integrated with other docs .. it would be handy to have an active documentation development tool, that also could dump a static project site 2014-12-24T05:34:50Z kristof: Lisp is perfect for that. 2014-12-24T05:34:56Z akkad: org-mode.lisp 2014-12-24T05:35:14Z Bicyclidine: i don't think i understand, but it sounds nice 2014-12-24T05:35:35Z nyef: Heh. "TDD: All code is guilty until proven innocent." 2014-12-24T05:35:44Z oGMo: nyef: eh 2014-12-24T05:36:16Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:36:57Z oGMo: i thought people were over the TDD thing and had moved on to other fads 2014-12-24T05:37:20Z oGMo: isn't there like BDD or something now? 2014-12-24T05:37:26Z kristof: TDD's are still important. 2014-12-24T05:37:53Z oGMo: sure, but it's not the miracle cure for all ailments 2014-12-24T05:39:50Z oGMo: "all code guilty" is more the code proofing stuff, which isn't TDD, and is also hard 2014-12-24T05:40:50Z nyef: There is no Sovereign Specific, or Royal Remedy. But I've been finding that having good test coverage helps an awful lot in making sure that I don't break things, and writing the test cases first helps an awful lot in making sure that I don't miss a required behavior. 2014-12-24T05:41:23Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:41:54Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:42:53Z Zhivago: I'd like to see programming languages deal better with the idea of code being probably correct. 2014-12-24T05:43:45Z Zhivago: Rather than expecting it to be exactly correct. 2014-12-24T05:44:06Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:45:44Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:47:25Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:47:51Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-24T05:48:24Z Kanae quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:49:48Z drmeister: In SLIME, the idea is that output from a function generated with FORMAT goes to the *slime-repl Clasp* buffer within emacs? 2014-12-24T05:50:22Z drmeister: When I C-M-x (print "Hello") it goes to the one line input buffer at the bottom of the window. 2014-12-24T05:50:48Z drmeister: When I load a file one line at a time and print each line - they all go to *slime-repl Clasp* 2014-12-24T05:50:55Z drmeister: Are those my two options? 2014-12-24T05:51:50Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T05:52:46Z Bicyclidine: cmx puts it in the minibuffer, yeh. 2014-12-24T05:53:20Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:53:20Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-12-24T05:53:20Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:54:18Z drmeister: minibuffer - yes. 2014-12-24T05:54:31Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:54:50Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:58:08Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T05:58:38Z protist joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:00:15Z ASau` is now known as ASau 2014-12-24T06:01:54Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:02:10Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T06:03:40Z drmeister: Wow, this is nice. 2014-12-24T06:03:41Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/CXvPIIv 2014-12-24T06:04:45Z drmeister: I can C-c C-c on the top defun and then just following the (read-file-line-by-line...) I can M-C-x and it evaluates the function and prints the matches in the *slime-repl Clasp* window. 2014-12-24T06:04:54Z drmeister: SLIME baby! 2014-12-24T06:05:53Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations. 2014-12-24T06:07:49Z drmeister: And when I type "(read-file-line-by-line " I see the lambda list (read-file-line-by-line name) in the mini buffer. One problem is that macros all appear like (defun #:G3483 env) 2014-12-24T06:09:47Z drmeister: beach: I'm ready to tackle HIR/MIR again. 2014-12-24T06:09:54Z nyef: A problem description pithy enough to analyze, but possibly a royal pain to resolve. 2014-12-24T06:10:46Z kami joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:11:02Z kami: Good morning 2014-12-24T06:13:04Z drmeister: I wanted to get a somewhat capable SLIME interface before I started writing the new compiler front end. I think it will be a much more pleasant experience now. 2014-12-24T06:15:57Z pnpuff: yes, of course... drmeister: you're doing an huge amount of work alone. Maybe with a working Slime will be easiest for others to help... 2014-12-24T06:16:03Z pnpuff: at least I think so 2014-12-24T06:16:32Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T06:18:24Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:18:27Z drmeister: pnpuff: In many ways its also more appropriate for me to implement this stuff. I had to make a lot of low-level changes to clasp to support SLIME. It would have taken anyone else orders of magnitude more time to get it working. Really just because I know where all the bodies are buried within Clasp. 2014-12-24T06:19:17Z drmeister: I'm gratified that I got this far so quickly. It suggests that Clasp is in pretty good shape. 2014-12-24T06:20:11Z drmeister: I made my bed. I should lie in it alone for a while... Turns out - it's kind of comfy. 2014-12-24T06:20:34Z pnpuff: drmeister: yes 2014-12-24T06:20:49Z drmeister: Now... I need speed. 2014-12-24T06:21:47Z Zhivago: A fast man in bed. 2014-12-24T06:22:22Z drmeister: With enormous stamina. 2014-12-24T06:22:43Z drmeister: Ah well, off to my real bed. It's been a good day. 2014-12-24T06:22:56Z drmeister: Good night all. 2014-12-24T06:23:38Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T06:23:56Z nyef: drmeister: Sleep well. 2014-12-24T06:24:22Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T06:24:47Z psy_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T06:24:51Z nyef: Actually, bed sounds like a good idea to me, too. 2014-12-24T06:24:54Z nyef quit (Quit: G'night all) 2014-12-24T06:25:49Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:26:11Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T06:26:48Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:27:12Z loz1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:28:39Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:30:03Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T06:30:32Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T06:34:51Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:39:32Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:41:21Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T06:42:37Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T06:44:35Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-24T06:49:31Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:49:48Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-12-24T06:55:28Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-12-24T06:59:56Z akkad: are there any universal restart methods to "abort to top level" vs the n number of restarts you get 2014-12-24T07:00:29Z TDog quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T07:01:01Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: -) 2014-12-24T07:01:07Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-12-24T07:06:01Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T07:06:28Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-12-24T07:10:06Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-12-24T07:11:46Z Shinmera: minion: memo for drmeister: Well, there's a couple of ways to do it; some return different symbols as a secondary value, some return T/NIL as secondary value depending on whether it's known or not, and some simply return a specific keyword instead of a list. Personally the last case would be most preferable imho since that's the way trivial-arguments outputs it as well. So returning something like :unknown 2014-12-24T07:11:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-12-24T07:11:47Z Shinmera: instead of the arglist would be nice. 2014-12-24T07:11:58Z Shinmera: minion: memo for drmeister: instead of the arglist would be nice. 2014-12-24T07:11:58Z minion: Remembered. 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2014-12-24T08:18:52Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T08:19:37Z Shinmera: ID3 parsing was pretty exciting to me. 2014-12-24T08:19:51Z Shinmera: Do you have any actually substantial complaints or? 2014-12-24T08:23:40Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T08:25:40Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T08:31:57Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T08:34:08Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-12-24T08:38:42Z pranavrc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T08:39:09Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T08:40:55Z modula2 quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-12-24T08:45:14Z theos quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T08:45:24Z wasamasa: I guess it was too practical 2014-12-24T08:46:00Z wasamasa: why write a piece of software that might obsolete your music player when you can write a number guessing game instead 2014-12-24T08:46:02Z theos joined #lisp 2014-12-24T08:49:38Z keen__________11 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T08:49:46Z 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2014-12-24T09:37:59Z robot-beethoven quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T09:37:59Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T09:37:59Z Intensity joined #lisp 2014-12-24T09:37:59Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T09:37:59Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-24T09:38:26Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T09:44:55Z akkad: PCL as a reference :P 2014-12-24T09:45:08Z akkad: you are pretty safe to go onto PAIP then :P and CLHS 2014-12-24T09:50:32Z meiji11 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T09:52:23Z yenda joined #lisp 2014-12-24T09:53:13Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T09:54:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T09:56:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T09:58:21Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T09:59:27Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T09:59:58Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:00:00Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:00:15Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:02:44Z tharugrim quit (Ping 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Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:17:30Z nikki93: cuz I'm tryna see alternative ways to organize objects in games 2014-12-24T10:17:43Z Shinmera: stassats: Another victim of Grahamitis you mean? 2014-12-24T10:17:47Z nikki93: and saw this language 'lobster' where you have re-entrant functions (coroutines) and a dude basically writes objects as closures 2014-12-24T10:17:54Z nikki93: game objects I mean 2014-12-24T10:18:02Z nikki93: https://github.com/aardappel/lobster/blob/master/lobster/samples/shooter_tutorial/tut_coro.lobster <-- here 2014-12-24T10:18:27Z nikki93: I mean obv the closure-objects parallel is readily apparent, but tryna experiment with different ways of doing things 2014-12-24T10:18:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T10:19:23Z nikki93: basically, if you forget everything (sorta) you know about programming/languages, what seems intuitive in terms of organizing a computer game 2014-12-24T10:19:31Z nikki93: the languages I've worked with before have already shaped my thinking it seems 2014-12-24T10:19:32Z wasamasa: copy-paste code 2014-12-24T10:19:39Z wasamasa: that's intuitive for real-world game development 2014-12-24T10:20:01Z wasamasa: use an engine, use its scripting language when appropriate, don't do anything too smart 2014-12-24T10:20:11Z akkad: what are the fundamental issues with PG? 2014-12-24T10:20:14Z nikki93: i guess so 2014-12-24T10:20:18Z akkad: besides the obvious 2014-12-24T10:20:19Z nikki93: the thing I'm doing is trying to make that engine, heh 2014-12-24T10:20:26Z wasamasa: heck, look at how the "AI" in pacman was implemented 2014-12-24T10:20:37Z stassats: akkad: people treating his idiosyncrasies like gospels 2014-12-24T10:20:39Z wasamasa: despite its simplicity, it manages to entertain people in 2014 2014-12-24T10:20:44Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-24T10:20:46Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:21:20Z nikki93: experimenting with making the dev cycle of games have a small diameter... I did an engine in C + Lua and used it to make a game for ludum dare 30 (48 hour game making competition).. now lisp has caught my eye again 2014-12-24T10:21:23Z stassats: i'm more of a pong fan myself 2014-12-24T10:21:50Z nikki93: the live coding stuff in Lisp is interesting mainly 2014-12-24T10:22:02Z wasamasa: nikki93: just use the language the way it feels right to you? 2014-12-24T10:22:20Z wasamasa: nikki93: although, whether copy-pasting classes in java and c++ feels right is debatable I guess 2014-12-24T10:22:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:22:47Z nikki93: wasamasa: I guess so. what feels right now is to try weird things for fun 2014-12-24T10:25:18Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T10:29:16Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2014-12-24T10:30:24Z akkad: so what is the right path? PCL -> PAIP -> ? 2014-12-24T10:30:40Z pppp2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T10:31:17Z stassats: -> write code 2014-12-24T10:32:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:36:11Z luis: -> read code 2014-12-24T10:36:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:36:58Z stassats: you can read your own code 2014-12-24T10:39:44Z davorb joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:39:49Z Shinmera: Real hackers code blind 2014-12-24T10:40:48Z nikki93: akkad: let over lambda / on lisp is nice for macrohax 2014-12-24T10:40:53Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T10:41:15Z stassats: "hax", right, nothing much useful 2014-12-24T10:42:13Z akkad: ok 2014-12-24T10:42:17Z MoALTz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T10:42:47Z nikki93: depends if ur going for useful lol 2014-12-24T10:43:19Z Shinmera: Usually I care about writing useful things, yes. 2014-12-24T10:43:26Z Shinmera: I'd imagine most people do. 2014-12-24T10:45:14Z nikki93: seemingly 'useless' things can make you better at 'useful' things tho 2014-12-24T10:45:18Z nikki93: often subconsciously 2014-12-24T10:45:51Z luis: right, don't forget about sleeping and eating properly, and exercise! :) 2014-12-24T10:46:00Z Shinmera: If they only seem useless, they aren't useless. On Lisp's things are pretty useless. 2014-12-24T10:46:12Z nikki93: the problem is you don't know if it will be beforehand 2014-12-24T10:46:15Z nikki93: you just have to try 2014-12-24T10:46:32Z Shinmera: When I think about jumping off a bridge I know it won't be useful for staying alive. 2014-12-24T10:46:37Z Shinmera: I don't have to try that. 2014-12-24T10:46:53Z nikki93: that example doesn't work for this case 2014-12-24T10:46:59Z nikki93: it's like when you haven't tried violin yet 2014-12-24T10:47:02Z nikki93: and dunno if it'll be fun for you 2014-12-24T10:47:33Z nikki93: it connects in a way you can't really describe to people -- it's a mix of technique, for sure, but also some subconscious stuff that you just have to try and see 2014-12-24T10:47:42Z stassats: that's why i'm eager to try heroin 2014-12-24T10:47:46Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T10:48:55Z Shinmera: I'd imagine jumping out of a plane without parachute could also be fun for a minute or so until the inevitable crash. 2014-12-24T10:49:05Z Shinmera: Which sounds like an apt analogy for the things described in On Lisp 2014-12-24T10:50:06Z nikki93: any way you choose, there seems to be death in the end 2014-12-24T10:50:17Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:50:21Z zadock quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T10:50:54Z nikki93: ironically when you're really good at something there seems to be more intuition and less thinking 2014-12-24T10:51:40Z Shinmera: I don't know what's ironic about that. 2014-12-24T10:52:00Z nikki93: no looking, just leaping 2014-12-24T10:52:08Z nikki93: or looking, but then leaping 2014-12-24T10:52:18Z stassats`: is that from one of pg essays? 2014-12-24T10:52:28Z Ukari joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:52:36Z nikki93: you can't really look if someone tells you opening your eyes itself is jumping anyway 2014-12-24T10:53:10Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:53:15Z Shinmera: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like 2014-12-24T10:53:37Z nikki93: the question has actually been answered already 2014-12-24T10:54:20Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T10:54:29Z stassats`: luis: thanks for merging, i'm getting rid of all those warnings in my code 2014-12-24T10:54:33Z stassats`: there's a ton 2014-12-24T10:54:56Z mrkkrp joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:55:02Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T10:55:15Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:57:14Z luis: stassats: np 2014-12-24T10:58:20Z moei joined #lisp 2014-12-24T10:58:30Z luis: incidentally, is there anything out there that collects and reports on compilation warnings signaled during compilation of a system (but not its dependencies)? 2014-12-24T10:58:49Z luis: I /think/ cl-smoketest used to do some of that, but sadly that code is gone. 2014-12-24T10:58:57Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T10:59:08Z stassats`: you can fake it with slime-asdf, compile something, then do ,reload-system 2014-12-24T10:59:35Z stassats`: that won't catch all instances of warnings, though 2014-12-24T10:59:43Z luis: I'd like to automate it to use with cl-travis 2014-12-24T11:00:11Z stassats`: well, you can just catch all the warnings and then sort them by systems 2014-12-24T11:01:07Z luis: hmm. I'd have to keep track of which system is being compiled at any given moment then, right? 2014-12-24T11:01:51Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:01:58Z davorb quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T11:02:00Z stassats`: that bit should be easiesh 2014-12-24T11:03:53Z stassats`: but even easier would be, you want to collect cffi errors, you know all the files in the cffi system, then just look if *compile-file-pathname* is it 2014-12-24T11:04:30Z luis: good idea 2014-12-24T11:04:35Z yenda joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:04:54Z luis: also *load-pathname* for load-time warnings, I guess. 2014-12-24T11:06:50Z kami joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:09:25Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:11:59Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:16:57Z yenda quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:17:49Z arnaudga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:18:59Z pppp2 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:19:50Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T11:20:29Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:20:39Z pjb` is now known as pjb 2014-12-24T11:21:44Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:23:21Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:24:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T11:24:24Z stassats`: and this inline and macro before used seems to be broken 2014-12-24T11:25:05Z stassats`: or not 2014-12-24T11:26:07Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:26:26Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:28:28Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:28:37Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:29:21Z pjb: minion: memo for the seb: the problem with the languages other than lisp or smalltalk, is that message sending has a different syntax than eg. arithmetic expressions or flow control. In smalltalk everything is object so 3 + 4 is sending the message + with the argument 4 to the object 3, which is similar to yourThing doSomething: otherThing. (+ 3 4) is similar to (do-something your-thing other-thing). This makes integrating the DSL 2014-12-24T11:29:21Z pjb: smoothless. 2014-12-24T11:29:21Z minion: i like lisp... i'm written in it 2014-12-24T11:33:56Z pjb: minion: memo for theseb: notice that Europeans don't do long divisions like USians do it. 2014-12-24T11:33:56Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell theseb when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-12-24T11:34:57Z yrdz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T11:36:16Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:37:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T11:37:39Z pjb: minion: memo for theseb: also have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/ee09f8475bc7b2a0 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.programming/msg/9e7b8aaec1794126 2014-12-24T11:37:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell theseb when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-12-24T11:38:18Z Fare joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:39:05Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:44:22Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:45:22Z stassats`: ok, named-readtables just does something strange with define-compiler-macro and the explanation doesn't make much sense 2014-12-24T11:46:16Z pjb: minion: memo for nyef: Booting linux on a 8-bit processor: http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.+Linux+on+8bit 2014-12-24T11:46:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nyef when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-12-24T11:47:06Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:48:13Z Phreak quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:49:00Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:51:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:52:59Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:53:49Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T11:57:13Z Phreak joined #lisp 2014-12-24T11:59:46Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T12:00:22Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:02:10Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:05:28Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:06:23Z pt1 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2014-12-24T12:06:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:06:39Z chu quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-24T12:07:04Z pt1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T12:07:33Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:07:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:10:34Z pt1_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:11:35Z arnaudga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:12:04Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:12:36Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:15:46Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:20:10Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:22:48Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:24:08Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:27:24Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:30:07Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T12:31:54Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:33:41Z luis: stassats: incidentally, doesn't this approach of looking at *compile-pathname* to determine where a warning comes from solve Xach's verbosity conundrum? 2014-12-24T12:35:03Z stassats`: it doesn't work well for a parent system depending on children, which actually contain the files 2014-12-24T12:35:08Z stassats`: like mcclim 2014-12-24T12:35:29Z stassats`: now, if you take all files within the same sub-directory, then it can work 2014-12-24T12:35:37Z stassats`: but again, it may not be what you want 2014-12-24T12:35:43Z ejbs joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:35:47Z luis: well, in Xach's case, he'd look at *compile-pathname* and, if it's inside the dist directory muffle it, otherwise print it 2014-12-24T12:36:13Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:36:29Z stassats`: yes, but you may fork something into local-projects, a new version of cffi, but you still don't want its warnings 2014-12-24T12:36:45Z stassats`: well, bad example, since you may care about cffi 2014-12-24T12:36:57Z stassats`: but say, somebody depends on a new version of cffi for some project 2014-12-24T12:37:49Z luis: There's also the bit about (*load-verbose* nil) (*compile-verbose* nil) (*load-print* nil) (*compile-print* nil). I guess this doesn't help with those. 2014-12-24T12:38:36Z pt1_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:39:50Z stassats`: if asdf had some sort of compile-file-hooks 2014-12-24T12:40:18Z stassats`: you can define around methods, but then you need define your own compile-ops 2014-12-24T12:40:53Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:41:11Z stassats`: there's ASDF/COMPONENT:AROUND-COMPILE-HOOK, but, well, it's not stackable, at least for things like quicklisp 2014-12-24T12:42:09Z luis: right, around-compile-hooks, plural, would do the trick 2014-12-24T12:42:41Z stassats`: like a variable list *compile-hooks* 2014-12-24T12:42:58Z stassats`: but asdf and a simple thing like that, no, unthinkable 2014-12-24T12:43:15Z stassats`: it needs to invent some weird CLOS hierarchy which isn't usable for anything 2014-12-24T12:43:56Z stassats`: asdf is an example of clos gone wrong 2014-12-24T12:44:49Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:45:14Z pt1_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T12:45:23Z Shinmera: I still have no damn idea what the downards-op upwards-op sideways-op classes are for, how they differ, or what they're supposed to mean in any form whatsoever. 2014-12-24T12:45:39Z ivan\ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:45:41Z luis: eheh 2014-12-24T12:46:19Z nowhere_man_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:46:28Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:46:35Z Shinmera: Also re the compile hook thing: You can stack it by saving the previous value to a variable and then defining your function around it by calling the saved function inside your own. 2014-12-24T12:46:51Z Shinmera: But obviously that'll break as soon as someone else replaces your function without doing the same :/ 2014-12-24T12:46:53Z stassats`: but an .asd file may define its own hook 2014-12-24T12:47:01Z Shinmera: Right. 2014-12-24T12:47:09Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T12:47:20Z stassats`: but it should be done in a proper way, for its own componnent 2014-12-24T12:47:38Z stassats`: asdf used to have its own around method combination, for added CLOS fun 2014-12-24T12:47:47Z Shinmera: There's a lot of things about ASDF that annoy me a lot, but I just don't know enough about it all yet to go and submit fixes. 2014-12-24T12:47:51Z stassats`: so you could have :around and asdf:around at the same time 2014-12-24T12:48:03Z Shinmera: Lovely 2014-12-24T12:48:11Z stassats`: Shinmera: my first fix would be M-x erase-buffer 2014-12-24T12:48:17Z Shinmera: Heh 2014-12-24T12:49:15Z stassats`: and use the old "do one thing and one thing well" 2014-12-24T12:53:55Z ivan\ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T12:58:06Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:00:54Z milosn_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:01:41Z milosn_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T13:01:41Z milosn quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T13:02:03Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:03:53Z mrkkrp left #lisp 2014-12-24T13:04:05Z pranavrc quit 2014-12-24T13:06:40Z sol__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T13:06:41Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, Where can I find license for clws? Can't find it anywhere 2014-12-24T13:08:01Z DeadTrickster: can you mention it in readme or somewhere else? 2014-12-24T13:10:01Z enitiz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:10:25Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:11:46Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:16:14Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:17:29Z drmeister: Hello 2014-12-24T13:17:29Z minion: drmeister, memo from Shinmera: Well, there's a couple of ways to do it; some return different symbols as a secondary value, some return T/NIL as secondary value depending on whether it's known or not, and some simply return a specific keyword instead of a list. Personally the last case would be most preferable imho since that's the way trivial-arguments outputs it as well. So returning something like :unknown 2014-12-24T13:17:29Z minion: drmeister, memo from Shinmera: instead of the arglist would be nice. 2014-12-24T13:17:57Z ejbs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T13:20:47Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:21:40Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:23:44Z drmeister: In SLIME is there an "evaluate and dump result into the current buffer" command? 2014-12-24T13:23:49Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:24:35Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T13:26:16Z drmeister: C-c C-p works well enough - it drops the result into *slime-description*. I still don't quite get where output and results are put for the different SLIME commands. 2014-12-24T13:27:28Z Shinmera: drmeister: I forgot to mention one method of dealing with an unknown arglist: raising an error 2014-12-24T13:28:19Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T13:28:41Z beach joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:28:54Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2014-12-24T13:29:57Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T13:30:58Z sol__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:31:00Z Shinmera: Good chritmas afternoon, beach 2014-12-24T13:31:03Z Shinmera: *Christmas 2014-12-24T13:31:46Z beach: Thanks, you too. 2014-12-24T13:32:19Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T13:32:47Z beach: So when I started writing code for SICL, I made the assumption that I could use the LOOP macro everywhere. However, I have been dragging my feet about that, and I am now at a point where I really need it, so I have no choice but to finish it. 2014-12-24T13:35:06Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:35:30Z doopz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T13:35:38Z beach: I guess part of the problem was that the LOOP specification is not very detailed, and a lot of it is left as an exercise for the reader. 2014-12-24T13:36:12Z pjb: There's PCL. 2014-12-24T13:36:35Z beach: pjb: ? 2014-12-24T13:36:45Z beach: The CLOS implementation? 2014-12-24T13:37:14Z stassats`: i would think that L doesn't refer to the CL:LOOP loop 2014-12-24T13:37:17Z stassats`: wouldn't 2014-12-24T13:37:25Z stassats`: ah, i got "doesn't" there already 2014-12-24T13:37:44Z pjb: beach: I must have the acronym wrong. There's a portable implementation of LOOP somewhere. 2014-12-24T13:37:51Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:37:56Z beach: pjb: Yeah. 2014-12-24T13:37:59Z eudoxia: beach: https://github.com/eudoxia0/cl-ansi-spec#internals 2014-12-24T13:38:00Z stassats`: the mit one? it's bad 2014-12-24T13:38:27Z beach: pjb: I would have to come up with my own eventually anyway; might as well bite the bullet now. 2014-12-24T13:38:50Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:39:06Z beach: eudoxia: Thanks. 2014-12-24T13:39:07Z stassats`: if i were to write a LOOP macro, i would make it a superset of LOOP and define my own rules 2014-12-24T13:39:09Z pjb: You sound like it wouldn't be a happy occurence for Christmas. 2014-12-24T13:39:31Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:39:42Z stassats`: because the rule that you can't have conditionals or unconditionals between FOR is stupid 2014-12-24T13:39:53Z beach: pjb: Me? Actually, I think I finally figured out how to do it. It took a while to figure out what the generated code should look like. 2014-12-24T13:40:13Z Shinmera: eudoxia: I object to the statement that you tricked me into writing the parser for you. 2014-12-24T13:40:16Z pjb: I'd guess that implementing LOOP using CLOS would be rather easy and nice. 2014-12-24T13:40:27Z beach: pjb: That's what I am doing. 2014-12-24T13:40:33Z pjb: :-) 2014-12-24T13:40:48Z beach: pjb: Every clause is represented by a standard object of some kind. 2014-12-24T13:41:21Z eudoxia: Shinmera: well it's not like that was my intent but that's sort of what happened 2014-12-24T13:41:59Z Shinmera: eudoxia: Saying that I was bored enough to sit down for half an hour and do it would be far more accurate ;) 2014-12-24T13:42:29Z eudoxia: but i like my version of the story :c 2014-12-24T13:43:17Z Shinmera: Well, do whatever you want, I don't really give a hoot. 2014-12-24T13:44:07Z beach: stassats`: I agree that there are some silly restrictions in there. 2014-12-24T13:44:20Z Shinmera is far too furious about his drawing problems to be able to be mad about anything else right now 2014-12-24T13:45:08Z wasamasa: Shinmera: what drawing problems? 2014-12-24T13:45:39Z Shinmera: wasamasa: The traditional kind, which is completely unrelated to CL. Particularly, drawing feet. 2014-12-24T13:45:48Z wasamasa: damn these feet 2014-12-24T13:46:01Z Shinmera: They seem impossible to get right. 2014-12-24T13:46:04Z wasamasa: just put some fog over them 2014-12-24T13:46:10Z stassats`: i'm better at drawing meters 2014-12-24T13:46:23Z pjb: Write a program to draw them. 2014-12-24T13:46:32Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:47:01Z Shinmera: pjb: I suspect that it'll take me longer to write a program that can imitate my style and draw the feet like I would than to just do some practise. 2014-12-24T13:47:18Z pjb: But it would be more interesting. 2014-12-24T13:47:26Z Shinmera: That is certainly true 2014-12-24T13:48:52Z pjb: Of course, it would be slightly more complex than the (Mathematica) program to draw butts: http://mathematica.stackexchange.com/questions/66538/how-do-i-draw-a-pair-of-buttocks 2014-12-24T13:50:39Z Shinmera: Show me a mathematica program that draws dickbutt and I'll be impressed. 2014-12-24T13:51:25Z stassats`: well, you can draw anything 2014-12-24T13:51:39Z eudoxia: http://imgur.com/gallery/YVCJJ 2014-12-24T13:51:42Z dandersen quit (Changing host) 2014-12-24T13:51:42Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:51:56Z Shinmera: great 2014-12-24T13:52:12Z stassats`: does it just sample the image? no good 2014-12-24T13:52:43Z pppp2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T13:54:14Z protist quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-12-24T13:54:45Z pjb: Shinmera: you can (almost trivially) write a program that takes any image and produces a mathematical equation whose solution approximates it. 2014-12-24T13:55:07Z pjb: Taylor, FFT, Wavelets, etc. 2014-12-24T13:55:16Z Shinmera: Well sure, but boiling it down to something that isn't just a bunch of sample points is the challenge. 2014-12-24T13:56:32Z pjb: There's an equivalence between programming and mathematics. 2014-12-24T13:56:39Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:56:45Z pjb: Or a duality if you will. 2014-12-24T13:57:17Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:57:17Z chu quit (Changing host) 2014-12-24T13:57:17Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:58:26Z Zhivago: There's an equivalence between a doughnut and a wombat, also. 2014-12-24T13:59:06Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-24T13:59:52Z drmeister: eudoxia: And who says math isn't useful after college? 2014-12-24T14:00:12Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:02:00Z eudoxia: drmeister: well, many people. pretty much most of them. at least where i work 2014-12-24T14:03:57Z Shinmera: While we're still in OT land: I throw my hands up in defeat; I can't seem to get it better than this. http://filebox.tymoon.eu/file/TVRjdw== 2014-12-24T14:04:28Z stassats`: that's like a reverse of hobbits 2014-12-24T14:05:25Z isoraqathedh_l is now known as isoraqathedh 2014-12-24T14:06:53Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T14:07:16Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:08:04Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T14:08:33Z drmeister: stassats`: SLIME closes the connection fairly often. I'm not sure if I'm hitting the wrong key in the debugger or I have a bug. Is there a way to hide any options to close the connection? 2014-12-24T14:08:47Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:08:52Z stassats`: you have a bug 2014-12-24T14:08:58Z drmeister: It seems like a controlled exit: ;; swank:close-connection: NIL 2014-12-24T14:09:17Z drmeister: Ah, good - I know where I stand with a bug. 2014-12-24T14:10:13Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:11:21Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-24T14:11:31Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:12:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T14:12:23Z drmeister: Here's an example. I tried to do C-c M-m 2014-12-24T14:12:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IzhQMoiQ 2014-12-24T14:14:25Z drmeister: Never mind - I should probably be using "q" and "a" and "c" rather than hitting number keys. 2014-12-24T14:14:44Z stassats`: it's all the same 2014-12-24T14:15:16Z drmeister: What's the difference between "q" and "a"? 2014-12-24T14:17:07Z drmeister: Never mind, I'm RTFM 2014-12-24T14:18:48Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:19:14Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:20:00Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:20:45Z drmeister: SLIME is so much fun. 2014-12-24T14:24:48Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:26:49Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T14:29:27Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T14:30:32Z drmeister: I've noticed something about docstrings in other peoples code. They appear to have the form "Short description~%~%Longer~%description~%over multiple lines" Where ~% is a carriage return. Is that a convention? 2014-12-24T14:32:09Z madalu` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T14:32:20Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T14:32:56Z drmeister: It kind of fits with the way code is indented by emacs. Where the open double quote is indented but the subsequent lines are not. If it is a convention, do any implementations separate out the short description from the longer one? 2014-12-24T14:34:45Z beach: My personal opinion is that docstrings don't belong in the code at all. The target audience for the docstrings is client code, whereas the code itself is meant for the maintainer. 2014-12-24T14:35:04Z beach: So to the maintainer they are just noise. 2014-12-24T14:35:27Z beach: As a consequence, docstrings are often substandard, so as to keep them short. 2014-12-24T14:35:32Z stassats`: a proper editor could collapse docstrings into a single line 2014-12-24T14:35:37Z beach: I much prefer using (setf documentation). 2014-12-24T14:35:48Z beach: stassats`: Sure, that's true. 2014-12-24T14:36:12Z beach: Furthermore, using (setf documentation) in a separate file allows internationalization. 2014-12-24T14:36:41Z drmeister: beach: Wow, you have just absolved me of three years of guilt from completely disregarding docstrings. 2014-12-24T14:37:37Z beach: And if you insist on having docstrings in the code, I suggest you indent them by using #.(format nil "bla bla bla....") and putting ~@ in the format string so that you can indent subsequent lines. 2014-12-24T14:38:53Z drmeister: How does the #.(format ...) work in a docstring? 2014-12-24T14:39:51Z beach: drmeister: #. is read-eval, so you can now put any form in there. Using FORMAT allows you to use FORMAT directives including ~@ which ignores leading spaces of the following line. 2014-12-24T14:40:33Z beach: So you can indent the following lines, with the rest of the string, rather than having those lines in column 0, which otherwise increases the noise level much more. 2014-12-24T14:40:55Z drmeister: Oh - I see. I can put #.(format...) in place of a docstring because the reader will read it and transform it into a string at read time. 2014-12-24T14:41:03Z beach: Exactly. 2014-12-24T14:41:19Z drmeister: That never occurred to me. 2014-12-24T14:42:17Z asker joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:42:26Z beach: drmeister: See for instance Code/Docstrings/docstrings-en.lisp in the SICL repository. 2014-12-24T14:42:57Z drmeister: Anyway internalization of docstrings is not important. Pidgin english with tortured grammar and spelling mistakes is the universal language of documentation. At least the documentation I grew up reading. 2014-12-24T14:45:23Z drmeister: Yes, that is pretty. I will borrow that if I may. It hides a multitude of sins. 2014-12-24T14:45:29Z beach: Yet another reason for separating the docstrings and the code is that you could then distribute docstrings separately, so that they could be useful for several implementations. 2014-12-24T14:45:38Z jim8786453 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:46:19Z beach: For standard functions and such that is. 2014-12-24T14:46:47Z beach: It is not always possible, because the docstring should probably reflect the specificity of the implementation, as opposed to just copying what the standard says. 2014-12-24T14:47:37Z drmeister: Understood. 2014-12-24T14:49:00Z drmeister: Everything is really starting to come together. I'm going to start working on integrating Cleavir again. I have a useful SLIME implementation now - this should be fun. 2014-12-24T14:49:15Z beach: Sounds like it, yes. 2014-12-24T14:50:17Z drmeister: What am I saying? I've had fun up until now typing things into a bare REPL and *inferior-lisp*, with SLIME this is going to be euphoric. 2014-12-24T14:50:40Z munge joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:50:48Z beach: It represents a very significant improvement, I assure you. 2014-12-24T14:51:06Z munge quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T14:51:34Z munge joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:54:29Z oleo__ is now known as oleo 2014-12-24T14:54:55Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-24T14:58:38Z stassats`: maybe i should build clasp, now that it has slime 2014-12-24T14:58:40Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:59:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T14:59:47Z drmeister: stassats`: give me a few days, this is in the devel branch and not streamlined yet. 2014-12-24T15:01:01Z stassats`: gah, updated slime yesterday just to commit a code-style change, and of course there's some new annoying change 2014-12-24T15:01:22Z stassats`: sldb now says "Slime autodoc mode enabled." 2014-12-24T15:04:32Z leo2007: stassats`: could you remove that msg from the minor mode? 2014-12-24T15:04:37Z leo2007: kinda annoying 2014-12-24T15:04:43Z stassats`: i'm already writing the commit message 2014-12-24T15:04:50Z leo2007: excellent. 2014-12-24T15:06:14Z stassats`: and it's in 2014-12-24T15:06:14Z Blaguvest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T15:06:54Z leo2007 updates slime 2014-12-24T15:07:07Z dandersen quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T15:07:41Z stassats`: now i remember why i started hacking on slime, all those annoying little things 2014-12-24T15:08:03Z stassats`: and why i stopped doing it for a couple of years, because nobody changed anything and didn't break things 2014-12-24T15:08:22Z asker: Hi Lispers! I have a problem with encoding (tested in '(SBCL CLISP)), I have this code http://linkode.org/YRxuvkxi7p6drszXbi0IG2 , runs well on Ubuntu but in windows get encoding errors(included in link) but I can't figure out why, can you give a hand? 2014-12-24T15:08:51Z dandersen joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:11:27Z ivan4th: asker: maybe because your file has utf-8 encoding? 2014-12-24T15:11:36Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:11:40Z ivan4th: and on windows cp-1252 is used 2014-12-24T15:11:44Z beach: Hello nyef! 2014-12-24T15:11:56Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-12-24T15:11:57Z minion: nyef, memo from pjb: Booting linux on a 8-bit processor: http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=07.+Linux+on+8bit 2014-12-24T15:12:09Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:12:39Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-12-24T15:12:39Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:12:52Z beach: asker: I don't know about the encoding problems, but there are some others in your code. For one thing, the call to FIND on line 21 might not work as expected, because FIND uses EQL to compare by default. 2014-12-24T15:14:03Z beach: asker: Furthermore, you are using non-standard indentation (4 characters rather than 2) which makes me think that you are not using a tool for indenting your code. 2014-12-24T15:14:03Z asker: ivan4th: I tried changing encodes unsuccesfully, can you suggest me one? 2014-12-24T15:14:11Z luis: stassats`: heh. Thanks for fixing that. It was pretty annoying. 2014-12-24T15:14:12Z ASau` joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:15:26Z beach: asker: Or, perhaps you are just not showing us all the lines of your code? 2014-12-24T15:16:39Z asker: beach: thanks, I check the code and for indentation what tool I can be use? I'm only 2 (not very actively) years Lisper ... 2014-12-24T15:17:34Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:17:59Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:18:10Z TDog quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 34.0.5/20141126041045]) 2014-12-24T15:18:37Z nyef: pjb: Frightening approach. Even scarier would be trying to get SBCL to run on that lash-up (it might take some doing, as IIRC SBCL using some ARMv7isms, and that's an AVR emulating an ARMv5). 2014-12-24T15:18:46Z drmeister: stassats`: By "not streamlined" I mean that I need to set up asdf, sockets and serve-event to be compiled when Clasp is built and have REQUIRE automatically load the FASL files. Currently I have to call a function to compile ASDF and the sockets and serve-event code is loaded from source. I also have a lot of annoying warnings being generated when I link 2014-12-24T15:18:46Z drmeister: C++ code with Common Lisp code. 2014-12-24T15:20:03Z stassats`: ok, i'm not in a hurry 2014-12-24T15:20:15Z ivan4th: asker: did you try to save your file using cp-1252 encoding? 2014-12-24T15:20:41Z stassats`: and i could do some hacking on the clasp swank too, i guess i have a bit more slime experience 2014-12-24T15:21:30Z kapil__ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-12-24T15:21:49Z asker: ivan4th: i don´t know how to change my encoding to cp-1252(i use notepad++) 2014-12-24T15:22:19Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:23:55Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:25:39Z keen__________12 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:25:41Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-12-24T15:25:49Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:25:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:26:39Z keen__________11 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:26:40Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T15:26:48Z stassats`: sbcl should finally grow --external-format parameter 2014-12-24T15:27:51Z ivan4th: asker: sorry, but http://lmgtfy.com/?q=notepad++%20encoding 2014-12-24T15:28:16Z stassats`: asker: do chcp 65001 in the cmd.exe before starting sbcl 2014-12-24T15:28:22Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:29:50Z ivan4th: ... but don't save file as cp1252 _if_ you use chcp 65001, keep it as utf-8 2014-12-24T15:30:22Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:30:50Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T15:31:02Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:31:06Z asker: ivan4th, stassats`: thanks trying now ...soon I tell you 2014-12-24T15:33:53Z Ethan- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:34:55Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T15:36:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:37:39Z asker: ivan4th, stassats: my encoding changes to "rare" chars like Ú 2014-12-24T15:37:51Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:38:02Z asker: i mean my *file changes 2014-12-24T15:38:15Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:42:23Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:44:03Z asker: now I got "Unhandled UNBOUND-VARIABLE in thread...The variable Ï»¿ is unbound" 2014-12-24T15:48:28Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:48:55Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T15:49:39Z DeadTrickster: is there any preferred way of obtaining stream for fd? maybe library? 2014-12-24T15:49:57Z DeadTrickster: something like make-stream-from-fd 2014-12-24T15:50:40Z stassats`: the reverse is usually better 2014-12-24T15:52:54Z Fare: Shinmera: still having trouble with asdf? 2014-12-24T15:53:00Z Fare: there's a mailing-list for that 2014-12-24T15:53:23Z Fare: there is also an article I wrote explaining the asdf architecture and its history 2014-12-24T15:54:10Z Fare: stassats: I am not satisfied with the current around-compile-hook either, but I'm sure the current maintainer will accept patches 2014-12-24T15:54:25Z Fare: especially if you manage to preserve some backward compatibility 2014-12-24T15:55:51Z Fare: one problem with the global hook approach is it isn't very modular (when different systems need different things, when the hook has some dependencies that you are recompiling, etc.) 2014-12-24T15:56:23Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T15:56:27Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-12-24T15:58:15Z Fare: nstead, each system or file can define its own around-compile hook and you can use inheritance yourself to develop modular protocols on top of that. 2014-12-24T15:59:00Z Fare: but hey, if you have a better design, go ahead. 2014-12-24T15:59:24Z stassats`: i don't want to touch asdf with a stick 2014-12-24T15:59:52Z Fare: As for the use of OO in ASDF to dispatch on both operation and component, I think it was one of the brilliant innovations by danb, even though his initial implementation had a deep bug (described in my last article on the topic). 2014-12-24T16:00:28Z Fare: you don't have to — but your criticism of it is probably less relevant if you didn't actually look into it. 2014-12-24T16:01:11Z Fare: I can certainly understand disgust at ASDF. That's how I started myself. 2014-12-24T16:04:17Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:06:53Z PaleFire joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:07:38Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:10:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:13:02Z nyef: How does that go? "Wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot snide remark." 2014-12-24T16:13:17Z drmeister: Hello Fare - what does ASDF spend all of its time doing when it starts up? 2014-12-24T16:13:43Z drmeister: I know that's a very vague question but I'm trying to get some insight. 2014-12-24T16:14:17Z Fare: drmeister: (1) getting loaded as a fasl, (2) searching your source-registry, unless you use cl-source-registry-cache.lisp 2014-12-24T16:14:47Z drmeister: Searching the source-registry - hmm. 2014-12-24T16:14:49Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:14:59Z Shinmera: Fare: I'm not sure that I ever mentioned trouble with ASDF on here 2014-12-24T16:15:00Z Fare: (1) is largely my fault, for trying to make ASDF 100% portable through UIOP, and adding lots of features 2014-12-24T16:16:04Z Fare: Shinmera: you mentioned recently trouble understanding the asdf downward-op, etc., hierarchy 2014-12-24T16:16:30Z Shinmera: Fare: Well that's just a complaint about it not being self-explanatory. Trying to look at the source just caused me to get confused a bunch 2014-12-24T16:16:51Z drmeister: Fault? Don't worry about it - I'm trying to figure out how to make it load faster. Currently it takes about 30 seconds to load the FASL in Clasp. Bleh. Everything appears to be working. 2014-12-24T16:17:31Z Fare: stassats: as for "stacking" the around-compile-hook, you can define your own :around method on call-with-around-compile-hook and implement whatever you want, if it comes to that 2014-12-24T16:17:35Z drmeister: I got a SLIME implementation up and running in Clasp. It's sweet! 2014-12-24T16:18:12Z Fare: drmeister: there's a lot of CLOS going on. If your implementation invalidates caches at every definition, that can get slow 2014-12-24T16:18:50Z Fare: drmeister: there's also a lot of EVAL-WHEN, which was the only way of getting the thing to replace itself correctly at compile-time 2014-12-24T16:18:54Z drmeister: There's only one member of the Common Lisp triumvirate left to implement. QuickLisp - I'm looking at you. 2014-12-24T16:19:28Z drmeister: I'll check the CLOS cache. 2014-12-24T16:19:39Z Fare: Shinmera: I think I did a video on the topic, and published a long article. Maybe there could be links to them in the source. 2014-12-24T16:19:45Z drmeister: The generic function cache, rather. 2014-12-24T16:19:59Z Fare: That said, if you think ASDF is hard to understand *now*, just you try to figure what it was doing *before*. 2014-12-24T16:20:15Z drmeister: Fare: It's not so bad. 2014-12-24T16:20:33Z Fare: but you know better than I how to profile your implementation. 2014-12-24T16:20:35Z Shinmera: Fare: I keep saying that I want to understand it all some day, I just never find the opportunity to. 2014-12-24T16:21:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:21:57Z drmeister: It's all ones and zeros in the end - as long as there are no twos... it's all good. 2014-12-24T16:22:51Z Xach: drmeister: quicklisp can be supported by loading quicklisp and then using defmethod forms. 2014-12-24T16:23:05Z Fare: even on sbcl, it takes ~.22s on my laptop 2014-12-24T16:23:10Z Xach: drmeister: no need to alter quicklisp itself (until it's done and you want it built-in) 2014-12-24T16:24:08Z Fare: Shinmera: no problem. The day it goes on top of your priority list, see the videos and .pdf documents linked from the webpage. 2014-12-24T16:24:21Z Shinmera: Fare: I'll make sure to remember that. 2014-12-24T16:24:21Z Xach: it needs networking, filesystem interaction, and reasonable performance for gunzipping 2014-12-24T16:24:40Z stassats`: Fare: i can't define two around methods 2014-12-24T16:24:47Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-24T16:25:17Z Fare: no, but you can define one that uses your global hook, or calls another method, or whatever the better protocol you have in mind is 2014-12-24T16:25:31Z Fare: and when your better protocol is stable, you can submit it as a patch 2014-12-24T16:25:42Z stassats`: i already said that i'm not interested 2014-12-24T16:25:54Z Fare shrugs 2014-12-24T16:26:26Z Fare: if you can't write the 5 line defmethod that implements the feature you want, you obviously don't need that feature that much. 2014-12-24T16:26:40Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T16:26:41Z stassats`: i don't want any feature 2014-12-24T16:26:46Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:27:36Z Fare: not sure what you want, then. 2014-12-24T16:27:58Z stassats`: well, i wasn't enlisting your help, so don't worry 2014-12-24T16:28:53Z Fare: in my syntax-control branch, I also implemented a system for binding variables around compilation on a per-system basis, and that could have been used to make things (selectively or not) not verbose, but it doesn't look like that'll ever make it to the top of rpgoldman's todo list. 2014-12-24T16:31:11Z PaleFire quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T16:31:16Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:33:10Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:33:26Z Fare: anyway, there are many reasons why asdf is the way it is, some of them historical, some of them due to actual important design constraints, and the "simple" solution that you may see (such a global hook list) is both implementable on top of the current system, yet not so simple to keep running correctly where multiple systems have conflicting needs or you have to confront bootstrapping or upgrade issues. 2014-12-24T16:34:18Z kami` joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:34:53Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:35:24Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:35:28Z nyef: ... Hunh. Scrollback in output buffers was a new feature in Genera 7.0? That seems rather late in the game... 2014-12-24T16:35:45Z Fare: nyef: when was 7.0? 2014-12-24T16:36:19Z nyef: I don't know, but 7 is a large number for a major version. 2014-12-24T16:36:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:36:52Z Fare: googling for genera 7 shows something in 1986. 2014-12-24T16:37:08Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:37:44Z Fare: (a manual's pdf) 2014-12-24T16:38:02Z drmeister: Xach: There are some #+ecl feature tests in the quicklisp code - that made me think that there may need to be some for #+clasp. 2014-12-24T16:38:37Z Fare: wikipedia says 1986 for the release date, 4 years after the first 1982 release, 7 years before the last 1993 release 2014-12-24T16:39:02Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:41:00Z kami` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:41:54Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:44:46Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T16:45:52Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:46:07Z Xach: drmeister: in some cases that is so that all the methods can appear in the same source file. 2014-12-24T16:46:18Z Xach: drmeister: instead of splitting everything into separate files that are conditionally loaded 2014-12-24T16:46:36Z Xach: drmeister: but if it is loaded after the fact and only on the exactly right implementation, no #+ should be needed. 2014-12-24T16:49:07Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:49:35Z ack006 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:49:54Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:50:11Z Ven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T16:50:33Z drmeister: I should just try and install it now. 2014-12-24T16:50:38Z ack006: ...and i though i was looking for some lisp lore from the good ol' genera days :-) 2014-12-24T16:50:38Z ack006: prtamil/Awesome-Lisp-Codehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/prtamil/Awesome-Lisp-Code 2014-12-24T16:50:45Z pjb: Zhivago: a wombat is equivalent to a 3-holed torus, (genus 3). A doughnut is a 1-holed torus (genus 1). They have nothing in common. 2014-12-24T16:50:46Z ack006: http://willandgrace.tktv.net/Episodes3/quotes/20.html 2014-12-24T16:50:56Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:51:01Z ack006: oops ignore #1 2014-12-24T16:51:02Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T16:51:05Z pjb: People always forget the nostrils. 2014-12-24T16:52:29Z ack006: what the hell's a MAC award? a recognition of great work done at Project MAC? Nah, look at the link and :-) ... 2014-12-24T16:52:32Z ivan4th: I wonder whether I didn't understand PROGV in CLHS or is there a bug in sbcl? http://paste.lisp.org/display/144885 2014-12-24T16:52:44Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:52:50Z ivan4th: I thought progv should undo var _unbinding_ too on completion 2014-12-24T16:52:55Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-12-24T16:53:20Z pjb: drmeister: emacs uses the first line of the docstring in short descriptions, and the whole docstring only when displaying the documentation of the operator. So I guess that comes from that. On my part, I tend to start by docstrings with a newline (or even two, since justifying commands fail to notice the double-quote, but not a double newline). 2014-12-24T16:55:02Z ehaliewicz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:55:54Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T16:56:17Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:56:44Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T16:56:47Z stassats`: ivan4th: the bug is in ccl 2014-12-24T16:56:47Z beach: ivan4th: I think you are right. 2014-12-24T16:56:50Z pjb: drmeister: be careful with #. however. You could easily require some read-time environment that may not be available to other tools than load or compile-file (for example, emacs). That's why I'd advocate against it. 2014-12-24T16:56:53Z beach: Oh? 2014-12-24T16:57:31Z ivan4th: CLISP behaves like CCL w.r.t. this case of progv 2014-12-24T16:57:32Z pjb: beach: I would accept your idea on docstrings, if you added a specification declaration to all your functions. 2014-12-24T16:57:51Z stassats`: i miscounted parenthesis, there's no bug in nor in sbcl, nor ccl 2014-12-24T16:57:57Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:58:11Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:58:25Z beach: pjb: What is a "specification declaration"? 2014-12-24T16:58:49Z madalu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:59:08Z ivan4th: stassats`: so you think that unbinding behavior is undefined in CLHS? 2014-12-24T16:59:26Z stassats`: no, it's pretty clear, your example just doesn't demonstrate the reality 2014-12-24T16:59:37Z pjb: (defun sqrt (x) (declare (specification (equation (= (* (sqrt x) (sqrt x)) x)) (human-readable "Compute the square root of x") (pre-condition (numberp x)) pure-function)) …) 2014-12-24T16:59:52Z uber_hulk joined #lisp 2014-12-24T16:59:53Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:00:15Z uber_hulk: Hi all. I have started with sicp book, but I wanted to run the procedures I write. Where can I do that? 2014-12-24T17:00:41Z stassats`: in #scheme 2014-12-24T17:00:47Z ivan4th: stassats`: the problem is that if PROGV unbinds variable for its body, should it restore the binding on completion? 2014-12-24T17:00:56Z uber_hulk: stassats`: okay, thanks 2014-12-24T17:00:57Z ack006: hmm, does anyone know more about this project? https://code.google.com/p/evita-common-lisp/ 2014-12-24T17:00:59Z stassats`: ivan4th: it doesn't, your example is wrong 2014-12-24T17:01:02Z pjb: beach: by the way, that makes me wonder if it wouldn't be easy enough to provide an easy way for the user to process declarations at compilation time. 2014-12-24T17:01:05Z beach: pjb: I am lost. I don't understand which ideas you would accept, and I don't understand why accepting them requires such a specification. 2014-12-24T17:01:05Z uber_hulk: stassats`: but according to book, it's also lisp? 2014-12-24T17:01:06Z stassats`: your paste, the result of it 2014-12-24T17:01:09Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-24T17:01:27Z stassats`: ivan4th: what you show doesn't happen in sbcl 2014-12-24T17:01:28Z pjb: beach: what I'm saying is that I consider my docstrings more to be specification strings than documentation strings. 2014-12-24T17:01:37Z pjb: beach: and therefore, I want them close to the function. 2014-12-24T17:01:40Z beach: uber_hulk: Except that #lisp is about Common Lisp. 2014-12-24T17:01:41Z stassats`: uber_hulk: no, it's scheme 2014-12-24T17:02:17Z ack006: evita common lisp isn't listed on cliki nor does it have much google love... 2014-12-24T17:02:17Z beach: pjb: OK. 2014-12-24T17:02:20Z uber_hulk: stassats`: okay, thanks 2014-12-24T17:02:26Z pjb: ack006: cliki is a wiki. 2014-12-24T17:02:46Z ack006: pjb: and irc is a chat 2014-12-24T17:02:50Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T17:03:00Z pjb: ack006: also, you may want to provide data for what-implementation: telnet voyager.informatimago.com 8101 2014-12-24T17:03:11Z beach: pjb: I use comments for such specifications, because comments and code are meant for the same audience. 2014-12-24T17:03:17Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:03:17Z pjb: ack006: in a chat I chat. In a wiki, I WRITE (or update) web pages. 2014-12-24T17:03:35Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:03:40Z ivan4th: stassats`: interesting stuff. It indeed works as expected under plain SBCL, but breaks in SLIME. 2014-12-24T17:03:54Z stassats`: it doesn't break in slime either 2014-12-24T17:04:00Z ack006: pjb: please see my question up top, before i write a wiki, i'd rather like to chat with people who might know more about evita than i do :-) 2014-12-24T17:04:21Z pjb: beach: Eventually I'd want specifications to be processed. It's easier when they're in a string (or a declaration) than when they're in a comment. 2014-12-24T17:04:22Z ivan4th: stassats`: for me, it does, even in *inferior-lisp* buffer for some strange reason 2014-12-24T17:04:33Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-24T17:04:38Z stassats`: i can't see how that can happen 2014-12-24T17:05:09Z stassats`: now, if you do (progn (defvar *v*) (let ((*v* t)) (print *v*) (progv '(*v*) '() (print (boundp '*v*)) (print *v*)))), it will 2014-12-24T17:05:16Z ivan4th: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144885#1 I don't see either, but it still happens 2014-12-24T17:05:34Z uber_hulk: stassats`: nobody is replying there, do you have any pointers? 2014-12-24T17:05:44Z stassats`: uber_hulk: just wait 2014-12-24T17:05:47Z ivan4th: oops 2014-12-24T17:06:02Z ivan4th: stassats`: error not included in the paste 2014-12-24T17:06:08Z ivan4th: it pops up sldb window 2014-12-24T17:06:14Z uber_hulk: stassats`: okay 2014-12-24T17:07:48Z stassats`: ivan4th: your sbcl build is broken, ask for a refund 2014-12-24T17:08:15Z ivan4th: stassats`: no. http://paste.lisp.org/display/144885#2 it's (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) 2014-12-24T17:08:21Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T17:08:24Z ivan4th: I have it in my ~/.swank.lisp 2014-12-24T17:09:38Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:10:40Z ivan4th: I like my green navigable stack frames in sldb so I use this slow setting. 2014-12-24T17:10:53Z stassats`: you only need debug 2 for that, fwiw 2014-12-24T17:11:20Z ivan4th: thanks, but anyway, I think it shouldn't affect PROGV 2014-12-24T17:15:08Z ivan4th: (the bug doesn't exhibit itself with debug 2 though) 2014-12-24T17:17:26Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T17:21:28Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:27:46Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:28:21Z ivan4th: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1405456 2014-12-24T17:28:31Z ivan4th: just in case 2014-12-24T17:29:06Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-12-24T17:32:22Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T17:35:50Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:36:00Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-24T17:39:25Z ivan4th: old bug... had some hope it worked in older sbcl, but 1.1.14 already has it, so bisection will not help 2014-12-24T17:40:55Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T17:42:02Z nyef: Also occurs in 1.0.23. 2014-12-24T17:42:13Z stassats`: it's not that it doesn't unbind, it unbinds too much 2014-12-24T17:42:40Z nyef: So, what is it about (DEBUG 3) that causes it? 2014-12-24T17:42:51Z stassats`: insert-debug-catch 2014-12-24T17:42:54Z nyef: Ah. 2014-12-24T17:43:01Z stassats`: the sentinel binding 2014-12-24T17:43:13Z rhllor joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:43:13Z nyef: So, there was a time when it DID work. 2014-12-24T17:43:52Z stassats`: yes, i have somewhere stashed a patch that dispenses with a sentinel for the debug catch 2014-12-24T17:44:11Z stassats`: now i'm thinking, fix this or just finish the patch 2014-12-24T17:45:40Z nyef: I've never liked the bind sentinel, FWIW, and am not a huge fan of the bindstack either. 2014-12-24T17:47:04Z stassats`: the sentinel thingy is too expensive, but what would you have instead of the bs? 2014-12-24T17:47:39Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T17:47:47Z nyef: Reliable backtrace. 2014-12-24T17:48:18Z nyef: Then, for PROGV, you end up with a multi-value stack packet with the old binding values. 2014-12-24T17:48:39Z nyef: It complicates unwind while drastically simplifying normal operation. 2014-12-24T17:49:00Z stassats`: so you want new frames for each binding? 2014-12-24T17:49:42Z nyef: No, you have a map for each code-object showing where to find the bindings (and values) to be undone by program counter region. 2014-12-24T17:50:42Z madalu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T17:51:07Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:51:24Z nyef: This could also give a stack map for which locations are boxed, which are unboxed, and where the DX-allocations are. 2014-12-24T17:51:36Z nyef: Badda-bing, badda-boom, precise GC on x86. 2014-12-24T17:51:51Z nyef: Or, at least, precise stack scavenging. 2014-12-24T17:52:26Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:52:59Z nyef: The problem, of course, is that the linchpin of the entire scheme is reliable backtrace. 2014-12-24T17:53:12Z nyef: Including over alien stack frames. 2014-12-24T17:54:26Z pjb: The Attack of Alien Stack Frames 2014-12-24T17:56:02Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T17:56:06Z nyef: We wouldn't need to cover alien stack frames for an initial version, of course, as we can start with the architectures for which we have a split stack. 2014-12-24T17:57:00Z rhllor quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-12-24T17:57:23Z nyef: But there are places where a badly-timed asynchronous interrupt will mess up the backtrace, and possibly the same for a trap in an assembly-routine or the runtime, or during function prologue or epilogue processing... 2014-12-24T17:57:30Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T17:58:34Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-12-24T17:59:32Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:02:44Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:03:11Z Hexstream: nyef: Do you have a presence on github/twitter/whatever? 2014-12-24T18:03:50Z uber_hulk quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-24T18:04:09Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:04:35Z nyef: Hexstream: I have a github account, but I don't use it much, why? 2014-12-24T18:05:14Z Hexstream: Well, curiosity. You seem knowledgeable and stuff, and I was having a hard time finding you with google. 2014-12-24T18:05:38Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T18:06:00Z nyef: I haven't been spending much effort on maintaining my internet presence this past couple of years. 2014-12-24T18:06:39Z drmeister: Is anyone familiar with ECL's function si:mangle-name? 2014-12-24T18:07:04Z stassats`: is it for prepending _? 2014-12-24T18:07:11Z drmeister: It looks like it takes a Common Lisp object and if it's a C-function it returns some information about it. 2014-12-24T18:08:24Z drmeister: stassats`: Was that last question referring to my question? 2014-12-24T18:08:33Z stassats`: it was, but nevermind 2014-12-24T18:09:19Z stassats`: it's just for making C names from lisp symbols 2014-12-24T18:09:22Z drmeister: si:mangle-name is used several times in slime/swank/ecl.lisp. 2014-12-24T18:09:24Z asker left #lisp 2014-12-24T18:09:31Z stassats`: prepending the package 2014-12-24T18:10:11Z stassats`: is it used for source location? 2014-12-24T18:10:19Z stassats`: in swank 2014-12-24T18:10:33Z drmeister: Is the name used to look up information in the TAGS file? How does slime interact with "etags"? Am I supposed to generate a TAGS file outside of slime for my C++ code? 2014-12-24T18:10:49Z stassats`: you aren't 2014-12-24T18:10:56Z pjb: slime doesn't use TAGS AFAIK. 2014-12-24T18:11:02Z pjb: it queries the lisp image directly. 2014-12-24T18:11:04Z stassats`: except that it does 2014-12-24T18:11:08Z pjb: It does? 2014-12-24T18:11:15Z pjb: It never did for me. 2014-12-24T18:12:02Z stassats`: drmeister: it's up to you how to provide source location 2014-12-24T18:12:33Z drmeister: So slime does use TAGS but I'm not supposed to generate a TAGS file? Who does the generating? 2014-12-24T18:12:43Z stassats`: gnomes 2014-12-24T18:12:47Z drmeister: I see - I am conflating what swank wants with how ECL implements it. 2014-12-24T18:13:04Z drmeister: I will use gnomes then. 2014-12-24T18:15:28Z drmeister: I'm working on providing support for M-, (I think) 2014-12-24T18:15:56Z stassats`: you need M-. first 2014-12-24T18:16:02Z algerbo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:16:15Z nyef: Wouldn't M-, be fairly automatic once you have M-. ? 2014-12-24T18:16:17Z Kanae joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:16:37Z algerbo left #lisp 2014-12-24T18:17:32Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:18:04Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:19:44Z drmeister: Yeah - sorry M-. 2014-12-24T18:22:27Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T18:25:44Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T18:29:20Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T18:31:03Z nyef: Hrm. Okay, I've finished looking through the second edition Lisp Lore pdf, and found basically nothing on input event handling. 2014-12-24T18:31:47Z ceverett joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:32:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:32:10Z nyef: The first edition said approximately "one thread per window pane", rather similar to BeOS. 2014-12-24T18:32:34Z nyef: I see NOTHING in the second edition to support or countermand this finding. 2014-12-24T18:33:47Z Hexstream: Wow, "countermand" is actually a word! 2014-12-24T18:33:56Z nyef: Yes. Yes, it is. 2014-12-24T18:34:08Z nyef: It's possibly the wrong word for this context, but it's a word. 2014-12-24T18:34:24Z _zxq9_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T18:35:36Z stassats`: i demand you be remanded for using countermand 2014-12-24T18:36:06Z Hexstream: I wasn't being sarcastic. I google "word definition" regularly these days, oftentimes to check the pronounciation and see that, fuck, I got it wrong again because English. 2014-12-24T18:36:50Z stassats`: i find google's pronunciations to be lacking, especially considering all the regional varieties 2014-12-24T18:36:59Z nyef: Still, this doesn't help me get un-stuck with NQ-CLIM event handling. /-: 2014-12-24T18:37:20Z arnaudga quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T18:37:33Z Hexstream: I'm satisfied with... the american equivalent of BBC English, whatever that's called. 2014-12-24T18:37:44Z stassats`: general american? 2014-12-24T18:38:06Z rme: Talk like me! 2014-12-24T18:38:22Z Hexstream: Maybe "Patriotic American", why not! 2014-12-24T18:38:22Z stassats`: mid atlantic is somewhat similar as well, but maybe not nowadays 2014-12-24T18:38:40Z stassats`: that'd be 'murican 2014-12-24T18:38:44Z nyef: Oh, hell. I was just reading earlier this week about the history of Received Pronunciation and the equivalent on this side of the pond... 2014-12-24T18:39:08Z loz1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:39:23Z nyef: ... and it used a specific term for it, and it was something to do with the fact that it was to do with radio and/or tv. 2014-12-24T18:39:34Z nyef: Might have been "network english" or something like that. 2014-12-24T18:40:20Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:41:09Z nyef: Anyway, CLIM event handling! 2014-12-24T18:41:50Z nyef: I'm sort of stuck somewhere between "threading support is optional" and "each pane has its own event queue". 2014-12-24T18:42:08Z Hexstream: stassats`: Ok, "General American" seems to be the correct term. You're right a frightening proportion of the time... 2014-12-24T18:44:01Z nyef: If each pane has its own event queue then either a program spends a lot of time in a polling loop checking each pane in turn, or there's a separate thread per pane, or SOMETHING else is going on that's not covered by the CLIM II spec. 2014-12-24T18:44:07Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T18:44:47Z nyef: And setting up panes to share an event queue is only covered in one or two very limited cases in the CLIM II spec. 2014-12-24T18:45:05Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:45:24Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T18:45:31Z stassats`: it doesn't have to be quite clim, does it? 2014-12-24T18:45:32Z nyef: beach: I don't suppose you're still here, are you? 2014-12-24T18:45:49Z nyef: stassats`: No, it doesn't, but it does need a reasonable story for event handling. 2014-12-24T18:46:05Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T18:48:14Z genii joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:49:00Z nyef: There's also the bit where the spec presumes that there's a thread dedicated to obtaining events from the host environment (X11, hardware, whatever) and dispatching them to appropriate event queues... or handling them itself in the case of things like the IMMEDIATE-REPAINTING-MIXIN. 2014-12-24T18:50:01Z nyef: There's no equivalent to select() or WaitForMultipleObjects(), so that's not on... 2014-12-24T18:51:10Z ellis-a joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:51:22Z hiroakip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T18:52:18Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-12-24T18:52:33Z genii quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T18:56:02Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-12-24T18:56:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:06:52Z ellis-a quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-12-24T19:07:17Z drmeister: I'm reading the SLIME source code (emacs lisp - ugh) What swank function implementation is necessary to support "slime-edit-definition"? 2014-12-24T19:08:14Z drmeister: Is it "find-source-location" or "find-definitions" or both? 2014-12-24T19:08:42Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:08:55Z drmeister: Or something else. 2014-12-24T19:09:02Z ASau` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:09:53Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:10:15Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:10:46Z stassats` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:13:06Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:14:22Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:15:51Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:17:47Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:21:16Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:21:30Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:28:13Z ggole quit 2014-12-24T19:30:29Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:34:10Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:38:54Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:40:32Z towodo quit (Quit: towodo) 2014-12-24T19:42:11Z stassats` joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:43:43Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:45:17Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:46:04Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:46:24Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:46:53Z holycow joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:47:16Z holycow is now known as Guest65983 2014-12-24T19:48:20Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:48:20Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 2014-12-24T19:49:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:52:12Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T19:52:12Z oleo is now known as Guest73081 2014-12-24T19:54:24Z Guest73081 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:55:30Z malbertife quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T19:56:57Z stassats`: drmeister: press M-. and see what's missing 2014-12-24T19:58:32Z pnpuff left #lisp 2014-12-24T19:58:52Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T19:59:13Z stassats`: ha, applied my old stashed patch and got a fix to ivan4th's bug for free 2014-12-24T20:04:28Z Hexstream: You ported the future from the past into the present! 2014-12-24T20:09:31Z stassats`: and now all frames are restartable by default 2014-12-24T20:09:47Z stassats`: quick poll: do you restart frames? 2014-12-24T20:09:52Z |3b| does 2014-12-24T20:10:26Z stassats`: i'm not sure whether to make it default or not 2014-12-24T20:10:35Z stassats`: or for which combination of speed and debug 2014-12-24T20:10:55Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:11:28Z |3b|: restartable by default might be nice, if it doesn't cost anything... if idoes, not sure either 2014-12-24T20:11:34Z |3b|: *if it does 2014-12-24T20:11:50Z Hexstream: I never restart frames, but that might have to do with the fact that it doesn't automatically work by default... 2014-12-24T20:12:01Z stassats`: they costs 9 bytes per functions plus one read and store, which should most of the time land in L1 2014-12-24T20:12:26Z stassats`: that's on x86-64 2014-12-24T20:12:33Z towodo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:12:40Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-12-24T20:12:47Z stassats`: L1 may be too optimistic, but it should be well cached 2014-12-24T20:13:02Z nyef: You can make it free, you know. You just need reliable backtraces. d-: 2014-12-24T20:13:04Z stassats`: and it doesn't prevent TCO, unlike the old thing 2014-12-24T20:13:13Z towodo quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T20:13:33Z stassats`: and the insert-debug-catch optimization quality is a massive misnomer 2014-12-24T20:14:04Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T20:14:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:14:23Z |3b|: if it worked more reliably it might be a better tradeoff, but from what i remember some things like defaulted arguments confuse it 2014-12-24T20:14:38Z |3b| thought there were some other problems as well, but can't think of them at the moment 2014-12-24T20:15:50Z |3b|: guess it also depends on programming style, since restarting things with side effects might not be useful 2014-12-24T20:15:53Z stassats`: it doesn't restart from the XEP, since several frames can share a single XEP 2014-12-24T20:16:03Z stassats`: and argument parsing is done in XEP 2014-12-24T20:16:35Z Hexstream: Excuse my ignorance, "XEP"? 2014-12-24T20:16:42Z stassats`: external entry point 2014-12-24T20:16:45Z Hexstream: Thanks. 2014-12-24T20:17:48Z stassats`: maybe make it (< 0 debug speed), and when (and (= debug 3) (> debug speed)) it'll prevent tco 2014-12-24T20:18:03Z stassats`: rather (<= 1 debug speed) 2014-12-24T20:18:08Z vaporatorius quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T20:18:15Z kristof: I'm interested in what a robust restart/handler mechanism looks like in a distributed environment. Erlang's an obvious candidate but "just kill it and try again!" isn't really the most robust solution one can think of. 2014-12-24T20:18:15Z stassats`: wait, i'm confused 2014-12-24T20:19:00Z arnaudga joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:19:27Z kristof: Distributed and asynchronous, more specifically. 2014-12-24T20:20:46Z dim: kristof: you need to read about OTP supervisors to get the full story 2014-12-24T20:21:49Z dim: maybe begin at http://www.erlang.org/doc/design_principles/des_princ.html 2014-12-24T20:22:05Z kristof: dim: There's a book on that I've been meaning to read 2014-12-24T20:22:52Z kristof: dim: Oh, I know about supervision, and linking 2014-12-24T20:23:57Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:25:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T20:25:42Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:27:26Z Hexstream: Speaking of "asynchronous restarts", sort of, I think there should be a concept of restarts that sort of hang around and can conveniently be invoked later. The motivating use-case is when you make changes to a DEFPACKAGE and then get some warnings about whatever "nonsense" having restarts to fix it would be convenient. 2014-12-24T20:27:56Z stassats`: you mean continuations? 2014-12-24T20:28:26Z Hexstream: I mean that manually uninterning symbols and stuff to fix DEFPACKAGE changes is hella annoying. 2014-12-24T20:29:06Z Hexstream: And ,restart-inferior-lisp just for that can also be annoying. 2014-12-24T20:29:10Z stassats`: i never do either 2014-12-24T20:29:12Z stassats`: i use restarts 2014-12-24T20:29:22Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T20:29:40Z Hexstream: How do you interactively restart on uncaught warnings?... 2014-12-24T20:30:10Z Bicyclidine: break-on-signals? 2014-12-24T20:30:47Z stassats`: defpackage produces errors 2014-12-24T20:31:09Z kristof: "hella annoying" 2014-12-24T20:31:10Z nyef: "Package also exports ..." 2014-12-24T20:31:15Z kristof: Hexstream, are you in norcal? 2014-12-24T20:31:39Z Hexstream: kristof: Terrebonne, near Montréal, Québec. 2014-12-24T20:31:45Z stassats`: nyef: it doesn't affect anything, until it does, then it just signals a restartable error 2014-12-24T20:31:47Z kristof: I thought we invented that word. Guess not. 2014-12-24T20:32:18Z stassats`: good guess, it's two words 2014-12-24T20:32:18Z Hexstream: I don't really remember the specifics, haven't actually coded in a while, but if there had been convenient restarts for all the defpackage stuff I'm pretty sure I'd have seen it. Hum. 2014-12-24T20:32:31Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:33:00Z nyef: stassats`: Yeah, but fixing up the package system after altering a DEFPACKAGE form in source is still a pain. 2014-12-24T20:33:19Z nyef: And if you have to re-home symbols and whatnot... ugh city. 2014-12-24T20:33:36Z zophy: i wonder if there are any images of lisp running on super computers like the cray titan or anything ? 2014-12-24T20:33:50Z Xach: zophy: yes 2014-12-24T20:33:57Z zophy: that is so cool 2014-12-24T20:34:19Z zophy: do you know any specifics about that ? 2014-12-24T20:34:51Z kristof: zophy: dwave 2014-12-24T20:35:08Z kristof: I don't know if that counts. That's slightly different, I guess. 2014-12-24T20:35:10Z nyef: Wasn't there something about running SBCL on a BlueGene/P ? 2014-12-24T20:35:17Z zophy: even on my laptop lisp has the feeling of a super computer 2014-12-24T20:35:26Z mband quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T20:35:28Z nyef: Vague memory here, so I could have the name of the computer wrong. 2014-12-24T20:35:35Z Xach: zophy: no. i don't have access to a computer like that. impractical lisps do not interest me much. 2014-12-24T20:35:36Z kristof: zophy: Whatever hallucinogenics you're ingesting, I want. 2014-12-24T20:36:59Z Hexstream quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T20:37:08Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T20:38:24Z zophy: kristof, the lisp enivronment is so nice for programmers, i love the presentations that describe lisp in detailed terms of lisp, lisp to me is like a fractal representation of itself 2014-12-24T20:38:32Z zophy: i can see colors... 2014-12-24T20:38:35Z zophy: oh man.. 2014-12-24T20:38:40Z kristof: zophy: Trippy 2014-12-24T20:38:44Z kristof: zophy: That's pleasant, though, yeah. 2014-12-24T20:38:51Z kristof: zophy: No weird java stack traces like in Java 2014-12-24T20:38:58Z stassats`: nyef: i think there's even a patch somewhere 2014-12-24T20:39:14Z nyef: Probably linked from sbcl-devel. 2014-12-24T20:39:37Z stassats`: but starlisp was a lisp for supercomputers 2014-12-24T20:40:24Z stassats`: green frames, green frames everywhere 2014-12-24T20:40:31Z loz1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T20:40:37Z zophy: i wonder if the titan runs crayos or linux now ? 2014-12-24T20:41:04Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T20:42:51Z zophy: Titan runs the Cray Linux Environment, a full version of Linux on the login nodes that users directly access, but a smaller, more efficient version on the compute nodes. 2014-12-24T20:42:57Z zophy: interesting 2014-12-24T20:43:32Z zophy: well.. ya know.. linux is all about world domination.. 2014-12-24T20:45:10Z keen__________12 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-12-24T20:45:13Z p_l: Cray's run Linux or Linux/custom hybrid for some time now 2014-12-24T20:46:04Z zophy: i thought so 2014-12-24T20:46:39Z keen__________12 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:47:18Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-12-24T20:47:31Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:47:40Z Joreji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T20:47:41Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:48:38Z drmeister: I think I found a little bug in the ECL source code. 2014-12-24T20:48:56Z drmeister: ecl/src/c/all_symbols.d 2014-12-24T20:48:59Z drmeister: @(defun si::mangle-name (symbol &optional as_function) 2014-12-24T20:49:04Z zophy: i wonder if there is any super refined, optimized lisp for the titan, or for any other programming environment.. i'll bet fortran has some great implementations 2014-12-24T20:49:25Z drmeister: On line 106 it returns results @(return found output maxarg) 2014-12-24T20:49:47Z drmeister: And on line 169 it returns results: @(return found output minarg maxarg) 2014-12-24T20:51:32Z Xach: you should probably become the new ecl maintainer! 2014-12-24T20:52:24Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:53:41Z zophy: Xach, sir, who is maintaining asdf now ? 2014-12-24T20:54:45Z zophy: heh, Linus Torvalds said that X is maintained by what.. 17 people ? 2014-12-24T20:56:02Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T20:56:19Z Xach: zophy: Robert P. Goldman 2014-12-24T20:59:56Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:00:30Z manuel__ joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:01:06Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T21:01:31Z zophy: Xach, ah, thanks for telling me that :) 2014-12-24T21:01:58Z mband joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:02:12Z zophy: Xach, you are as good as google.com :)), no, much better, much smarter ! 2014-12-24T21:02:38Z Hexstream quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T21:02:52Z Hexstream joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:05:18Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:05:18Z Hexstream1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:06:57Z Hexstream quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:07:36Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:08:56Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:16:35Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T21:17:42Z zophy: ok.. i'm going to redirect one of my homepages to this paper -- > http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html 2014-12-24T21:17:52Z zophy: fare is a hero 2014-12-24T21:18:37Z dandersen is now known as dkcl 2014-12-24T21:19:28Z stassats`: you are acting weird 2014-12-24T21:22:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:24:02Z zophy: well, i like to announce my appreciation of the great figures in programming history, advancement, unobfisication, it's the holiday season, be joyful with me please !!! 2014-12-24T21:24:20Z Shinmera: No 2014-12-24T21:25:03Z zophy: you need a more powerful driving experience ? 2014-12-24T21:25:21Z urandom_1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:25:39Z zophy: or just some smart talk ? 2014-12-24T21:25:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:25:58Z urandom__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:26:50Z stassats`: silence or on topic would be nice 2014-12-24T21:27:32Z zophy: 'heh, ok, i'm imbibing the holiday spirit !' 2014-12-24T21:28:41Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T21:28:59Z stassats`: spirit, just as i figured 2014-12-24T21:31:05Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:32:51Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T21:33:08Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:33:21Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T21:34:18Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:35:12Z manuel__ quit (Quit: manuel__) 2014-12-24T21:35:14Z beach left #lisp 2014-12-24T21:37:55Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:38:37Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:39:33Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:39:43Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T21:43:51Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:44:22Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:45:35Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:46:00Z madalu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:48:23Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:49:28Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:50:46Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T21:52:45Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T21:54:12Z Hexstream1: nyef: I'm glad I hadn't hallucinated the entire situation. (About DEFPACKAGE redefinition pain. Posted this and the following message earlier but comparing with the logs it seems it's been eaten by my timeout.) 2014-12-24T21:54:21Z Hexstream1: Wow, ok. I didn't remember the CLHS had an explanatory image. (http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/12_aed.htm) Maybe there should be an "obscure CLHS oddities trivia" quiz. ("Maybe I should make one", I know.) 2014-12-24T21:55:15Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-12-24T21:56:22Z nyef: Hexstream1: Yeah, there's a bunch of weird corners. I know that rtoym, as CMUCL maintainer, got surprised recently by something I was puzzled by in SBCL a year or so ago, involving some float constant or other, which turned out to be from differences between CLHS and IEEE754 in the definition of floats. 2014-12-24T21:57:08Z nyef: (Okay, I don't know how recently, but it's somewhere in the CMUCL Trac instance.) 2014-12-24T21:57:14Z Hexstream1 is now known as Hexstream 2014-12-24T21:58:16Z Xach: Hexstream: http://xach.livejournal.com/312567.html is something i tried to make 2014-12-24T21:58:43Z nyef: Hexstream: I have a vague memory that says that you ported one of my small libraries or utilities, some time ago. 2014-12-24T21:59:03Z nyef: Hexstream: Or I have a hash collision, and it was someone else. 2014-12-24T21:59:22Z Hexstream: nyef: No, I don't do that kind of thing, I pretty much only work on my own projects. 2014-12-24T21:59:47Z stassats`: i'm in the quiz, whoohoo 2014-12-24T22:00:19Z nyef: Hrm. 2014-12-24T22:00:24Z nyef: I wonder who it was, then? 2014-12-24T22:01:13Z Hexstream: Xach: I remember that, my idea was more about idiosyncracies of the CLHS itself that doesn't have to do with the contents of the standard, although the example I posted earlier about the image was in fact related to the standard itself... 2014-12-24T22:01:40Z k-stz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-12-24T22:02:57Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T22:04:02Z Hexstream: By the way I'm in the process of "compiling" all the CLHS figures in one place, all cross-referenced. I can't believe this hasn't already been done... 2014-12-24T22:06:34Z ack006: grr, wcl doesn't work with quicklisp. anyone know of an alternative with the same features (i.e. not image-based, dynamic linking, etc.)? 2014-12-24T22:06:47Z Hexstream: wcl?? 2014-12-24T22:07:11Z ack006: Hexstream: http://www.commonlisp.net/ 2014-12-24T22:07:26Z stassats`: oh my 2014-12-24T22:07:27Z ack006: Hexstream: and no, that's not a typo :-) 2014-12-24T22:07:30Z stassats`: blast from the past 2014-12-24T22:07:39Z nyef: Oh, wow... I vaguely remember this... 2014-12-24T22:07:41Z ack006: stassats`: as always :-) 2014-12-24T22:07:41Z Hexstream: Yeah, I originally thought it was a typo. 2014-12-24T22:08:09Z ack006: but i'm wondering if there's any modern alternative 2014-12-24T22:08:19Z stassats`: ECL 2014-12-24T22:08:26Z nyef: Clasp? 2014-12-24T22:08:37Z ack006: nyef: when it's done :-) 2014-12-24T22:08:47Z stassats`: SBCL isn't done yet 2014-12-24T22:08:48Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:09:08Z ack006: stassats`: in that sense, no lisp is ever done 2014-12-24T22:09:09Z nyef: Every so often I'm surprised that CMUCL isn't done yet. (-: 2014-12-24T22:10:01Z ack006: i'll say 'done' is reasonably close when a lisp loads quicklisp and loads 'bout 20% of the systems on there. 2014-12-24T22:10:59Z stassats`: SBCL will be done when it's faster than C 2014-12-24T22:11:20Z ack006: stassats`: ha :-) 2014-12-24T22:11:32Z nyef: Software is "done" when there are no longer any maintainers. 2014-12-24T22:11:42Z ack006: stassats`: perhaps port it to Shen then 2014-12-24T22:11:52Z stassats`: to what? 2014-12-24T22:12:08Z ack006: stassats`: http://www.shenlanguage.org/ 2014-12-24T22:12:38Z stassats`: i know that, it was a different kind of "what?" 2014-12-24T22:13:23Z ack006: stassats`: the whole story behind that is just amazing. more than 20 years of work i gather 2014-12-24T22:14:21Z stassats`: i'm not impressed by the result 2014-12-24T22:14:37Z ack006: stassats`: how so? 2014-12-24T22:14:54Z stassats`: me <=== not impressed 2014-12-24T22:16:00Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-12-24T22:16:26Z ack006: stassats`: well, if you can do better, be my guest! 2014-12-24T22:17:23Z ack006: http://www.shenlanguage.org/history.html 2014-12-24T22:18:03Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:18:42Z stassats`: just someone's pretensions toy language, what of it? 2014-12-24T22:21:26Z ack006: stassats`: you're an expert in type theory then? 2014-12-24T22:21:53Z stassats`: i gather you are writing in shen 2014-12-24T22:21:57Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:22:01Z ack006: stassats`: nope 2014-12-24T22:22:15Z stassats`: well then 2014-12-24T22:22:23Z ack006: stassats`: but i've read some of it, and i'm impressed 2014-12-24T22:22:31Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-24T22:22:32Z Hexstream: ack006: Largely, the history is interesting to the extent that the deliverables are interesting, not the other way around. I guess. What I mean is that if you have a "really exciting" history but it didn't really produce something remarkable, well... (But I guess you think shen is remarkable, maybe it is, I don't know it.) 2014-12-24T22:22:45Z stassats`: a programming language which nobody uses, what's the use? 2014-12-24T22:23:19Z Hexstream: At least now it can't blame its license anymore. (Or soon.) 2014-12-24T22:23:29Z stassats`: will it? 2014-12-24T22:23:56Z stassats`: this licensing stuff is quite offputting as well 2014-12-24T22:23:59Z Hexstream: About 500$ more of pledge collections and it will be MIT... 2014-12-24T22:24:38Z ack006: the same problem with wcl i guess, or else we would have it brought up to modern spec 2014-12-24T22:24:59Z Hexstream: Sorry, BSD. But that's pretty much like MIT. 2014-12-24T22:26:33Z wasamasa: uh, no? 2014-12-24T22:26:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T22:26:54Z wasamasa: the page states it still needs 8500£ for that and they're at ~2500£ 2014-12-24T22:27:59Z Hexstream: wasamasa: They didn't make it to 8500, they got the pledges only to about 2500 and decided to collect and switch to BSD instead of waiting forever. That page may have obsolete information. 2014-12-24T22:28:09Z Hexstream: Now going to eat... 2014-12-24T22:28:53Z stassats`: 8500 is nothing to write home about, let alone 2500, what's the money needed for? 2014-12-24T22:29:31Z wasamasa: to hire a lawyer 2014-12-24T22:29:45Z stassats`: for a couple of hours? 2014-12-24T22:29:48Z wasamasa: who will somehow help them with the license issues 2014-12-24T22:30:04Z wasamasa: Hexstream: I only see this "obsolete" information there, yes 2014-12-24T22:30:15Z wasamasa: Hexstream: and I won't believe any of it unless I see some actual proof 2014-12-24T22:31:13Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T22:31:26Z wasamasa: I don't see any change of license in the sources either 2014-12-24T22:32:05Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:32:33Z luis quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2014-12-24T22:32:33Z capitaomorte` quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2014-12-24T22:34:26Z yeticry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T22:34:28Z wasamasa: anyways, the lawyer discussion is there: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/qilang/HBBjtIxegFY 2014-12-24T22:36:46Z wasamasa: "There is no lawyer involved here. The history was - Aditya suggested hiring a lawyer to reformulate the license. Smita suggested instead paying me the same money to go BSD and I said - yes, ok." 2014-12-24T22:38:44Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T22:39:20Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:39:24Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-24T22:40:43Z capitaomorte joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:41:14Z luis joined #lisp 2014-12-24T22:42:04Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T22:42:56Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-24T22:44:38Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T22:47:49Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-12-24T22:49:52Z Hexstream: wasamasa: Hopefully this reaches or exceeds your standards of proof: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qilang/XLHJyaiYqow/5swFxsLhDbUJ And the "about 2000 collected so far" is from http://www.shenlanguage.org/total.htm 2014-12-24T22:51:26Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-12-24T22:53:10Z logloglogloglog quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-24T22:53:50Z wasamasa: Hexstream: hmm, that looks more believable, but apparently they did not manage the christmas release in time 2014-12-24T22:53:58Z wasamasa: Hexstream: or any changes on the website 2014-12-24T22:54:27Z Hexstream: There are still a few hours left in my timezone. 2014-12-24T22:55:48Z Hexstream: There probably won't be any casualties if it's late by a few days or weeks anyway. Anyway I think we've spent enough messages on this not-completely-on-topic subject. 2014-12-24T22:56:01Z wasamasa: right 2014-12-24T22:59:29Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-12-24T23:07:05Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:07:23Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:10:25Z GGMethos quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-24T23:11:06Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:13:22Z Kanae quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:13:26Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:14:44Z Hexstream: Having to do (or perhaps opting to do) a "manual linear scan" of most of the CLHS, I quite appreciate the "snappiness" of Lispwork's server. What a PAIN it would be if it was just a bit slow... (And I can't do it with local CLHS because I need to copy/paste some canonical CLHS URLs...) 2014-12-24T23:15:29Z stassats`: you know that there's a one to one map 2014-12-24T23:16:24Z nyef: It's still a nuisance to do that mapping without fully automated support. 2014-12-24T23:16:39Z Hexstream: Oh yeah. Hadn't thought about that. But the server is so fast that it makes sense to do it this way anyway. 2014-12-24T23:17:10Z stassats`: nyef: just post process them 2014-12-24T23:17:40Z stassats`: i translate specbot's urls into local locations 2014-12-24T23:17:48Z Hexstream: I guess I'm a bit "stuck" on that idea of making a Chrome plugin to redirect between local and remote URLs as appropriate, I had started work on that but of course I went to do other things... 2014-12-24T23:18:05Z nyef: If you're doing enough that can make sense, but I find it inhibitory to do so for the odd one or two URLs without tool support. 2014-12-24T23:18:57Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T23:20:14Z Hexstream: https://github.com/Hexstream/clhs-urltools was the project, it's not just an empty stub but not usable yet... 2014-12-24T23:21:44Z logloglogloglog joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:21:47Z nyef: ... I should probably figure out how to use github one of these days. I've got a number of now-homeless git repositories and things that I've never published that could do with some exposure. 2014-12-24T23:22:52Z pjb: nyef: try gitorious.ORG for free software, instead of github.COM for COMmercial software. 2014-12-24T23:22:55Z Hexstream: nyef: Far less qualified people than you have not had much trouble figuring it out. :) 2014-12-24T23:23:23Z Hexstream: Yes, use something else than github if you want to be a PITA to everyone. 2014-12-24T23:23:25Z stassats` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:23:27Z nyef: pjb: I actually have an SBCL tree on repo.or.cz, FWIW. 2014-12-24T23:23:37Z Hexstream: Well, to many people. 2014-12-24T23:23:43Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:23:47Z pjb: nyef: any public git repo is good. 2014-12-24T23:24:25Z Hexstream: He talked about "exposure", and github is currently the best for this, bar none. 2014-12-24T23:24:44Z nyef: Hexstream: It's not really a matter of qualifications to figure it out, it's a matter of taking the time to do so. 2014-12-24T23:24:51Z akkad: github is used like a cvs 2014-12-24T23:25:13Z Hexstream: nyef: It wouldn't be a long time if you're overly qualified... 2014-12-24T23:25:29Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:26:02Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:26:26Z nyef: Heh. So, I click on the "create repositories" "button" on github, part of some "bootcamp" sequence. It opens a new tab with instructions. One of the instruction is "In the upper-right corner of any page, click +", but there's no + in the upper-right corner. 2014-12-24T23:26:40Z nyef: FAIL. 2014-12-24T23:28:21Z Hexstream: Probably best to skip the tutorial, which is more likely to be outdated than the normal procedures. 2014-12-24T23:28:28Z ejbs joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:28:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:29:09Z nyef: The issue actually was that the documentation wasn't part of github proper. 2014-12-24T23:29:40Z Hexstream: Wait, can't you just go to github.com while logged in and then click "create new repository" in the upper right? 2014-12-24T23:30:17Z nyef: There is no "create new repository" in the upper right. 2014-12-24T23:31:02Z Hexstream: There's the "+" thing in the upper right. That's a menu. 2014-12-24T23:31:26Z nyef: There's my login name, a + with a downward-pointing triangle, something unidentifiable with a blue circle, a gear, and a flap with an arrow. 2014-12-24T23:32:01Z nyef: But the + with the downward-pointing triangle isn't on the documentation page that I found. 2014-12-24T23:32:13Z nyef: But the documentation is, in some way, "part" of github. 2014-12-24T23:32:21Z Hexstream: Uhhhhhhhhhhh. Screenshot? 2014-12-24T23:32:27Z nyef: Of which? 2014-12-24T23:32:33Z Hexstream: github.com while logged in. 2014-12-24T23:32:43Z Xach: Maybe you could get with the program and figure this out privately. 2014-12-24T23:32:44Z Hexstream: Maybe you're stuck in some stupid "on-boarding" mode. 2014-12-24T23:32:54Z nyef: Hell, you know what it looks like logged-in. https://help.github.com/articles/create-a-repo/ is what I'm looking at. 2014-12-24T23:33:07Z nyef: Note the lack of anything useful in the top-right. 2014-12-24T23:33:23Z nyef: Hence, FAIL. 2014-12-24T23:33:33Z nyef: And Xach is right. This is slightly off-topic. 2014-12-24T23:34:02Z Hexstream: I didn't expect this to drag on. I was suggesting to try going to https://github.com but anyway. 2014-12-24T23:35:36Z scymtym joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:35:39Z nyef: The next question is, "which of my various projects and such do I want to push to github?" 2014-12-24T23:37:33Z ack006: i use https://github.com/github/hub to deal with github. learn this and you don't have to deal with the website most of the time 2014-12-24T23:37:56Z ack006: new repo? hub create 2014-12-24T23:38:01Z ack006: fork? hub fork 2014-12-24T23:38:02Z ack006: etc 2014-12-24T23:38:34Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:38:45Z enitiz joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:38:56Z schjetne quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-12-24T23:39:18Z ack006: https://hub.github.com/ 2014-12-24T23:40:18Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:40:40Z ack006: and it's on brew for all those with a fetish for a certain kind of fruit :-P 2014-12-24T23:41:07Z schjetne joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:42:34Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:45:04Z nyef: clhs array-displacement 2014-12-24T23:45:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ar_dis.htm 2014-12-24T23:45:08Z johnrx joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:45:59Z sonnym1 joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:46:00Z sonnym1 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-12-24T23:46:14Z Xach is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3283364284060266KL2065E%40naggum.no.html 2014-12-24T23:46:30Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:47:31Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:47:56Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-12-24T23:49:44Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-24T23:51:07Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-24T23:52:13Z nyef: Xach: For good reason: paste.lisp.org/display/144897 2014-12-24T23:54:37Z nikki93 joined #lisp