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I don't know, it is still hidden. 2014-12-22T03:36:48Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2014-12-22T03:37:02Z beach: That should have been `average'! 2014-12-22T03:38:03Z nyef: So, I've been thinking a little bit about my CL implementation based around pervasive cross-process debugging, and I realized that I have two main rationales for not pursuing it now. 2014-12-22T03:38:15Z nyef: First is the "spare time" argumnet. 2014-12-22T03:38:20Z nyef: s/mnet/ment/. 2014-12-22T03:38:37Z nyef: But the second is actually a UI argument. 2014-12-22T03:38:49Z beach: How so? 2014-12-22T03:39:13Z average: nyef: cross-process debugging ? 2014-12-22T03:39:53Z nyef: average: Using a program in one address space to debug on in another address space, sort of like how gdb works. 2014-12-22T03:40:25Z brucem: average: You can use debugging interfaces to implement hot code swapping and many other things so that you can use the compiler in a separate process and have the running target be very slim / small ... with just a debugging nub in the target. 2014-12-22T03:41:21Z nyef: beach: I've never been particularly good at UI design and implementation, and while I'm fairly confident in my ability to implement the various low-level pieces I don't see much point unless the UI is going to be at least usable. 2014-12-22T03:41:43Z beach: Yes, I see. 2014-12-22T03:42:15Z beach: UI design skills can be acquired, though. 2014-12-22T03:42:33Z beach: nyef: Tell me again the main reason for wanting such a system? 2014-12-22T03:42:48Z beach: If it is just small executables, there are other ways. 2014-12-22T03:42:58Z nyef: That they can, and UI libraries can be implemented and bindings can be written. 2014-12-22T03:42:59Z beach: Such as putting most code in a shared library. 2014-12-22T03:43:16Z beach: Hence back to the `spare time' argument. 2014-12-22T03:43:25Z nyef: Many native-code CL implementations don't behave well with the "shared library" concept. 2014-12-22T03:43:57Z beach: But is the reason for that accidental or profound? 2014-12-22T03:44:05Z beach: I am guessing the former. 2014-12-22T03:44:06Z nyef: It's not just "small executables", there's the whole "under-explored implementation space" thing as well. 2014-12-22T03:44:22Z beach: Yeah, OK. 2014-12-22T03:44:36Z akkad: not like they are static binaries that can be stripped 2014-12-22T03:45:29Z beach: akkad: What do you mean? 2014-12-22T03:45:42Z akkad: ever strip a binary produced by ccl/sbcl/lw? 2014-12-22T03:45:50Z nyef: What do you consider to be the difference between an "accidental reason" and a "profound reason"? 2014-12-22T03:46:09Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T03:46:09Z nightshade427 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T03:46:47Z beach: nyef: By "accidental" I mean that they just weren't designed for that and by "profound" I mean that there is something in the specification of Common Lisp that prevents it. 2014-12-22T03:46:56Z beach: ... or at least makes it harder. 2014-12-22T03:47:17Z nyef: I'm going to say somewhere between the two, probably leaning towards profound. 2014-12-22T03:47:26Z akkad: "deep"? 2014-12-22T03:47:28Z beach: I am surprised. 2014-12-22T03:47:33Z average: nyef: mind you, GDB is scriptable via Python (and it ships with that in recent versions) 2014-12-22T03:48:11Z mikelino joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:48:29Z nyef: beach: Partly, it's in the definition of the "LOAD" operation, but also in the straight-up mutability of the package system. 2014-12-22T03:48:31Z average: nyef: I have actually done that(used Python to "script" GDB, i'm using quotes because you can actually do a broad and very fine-tuned type of automation and analysis.. so it's quite extensive) 2014-12-22T03:48:36Z beach: nyef: I don't see why we can't stick all the system code (not the bindings and stuff, just the instructions) in a shared library, or just a file, and mmap it at startup. 2014-12-22T03:48:57Z nightshade427 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:49:06Z mikybounce quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-22T03:49:37Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:49:48Z nyef: Also, heap segment relocation, GC integration, and so on. Mostly towards accidental, but in a way that is a bleeding nuisance to implement at times. 2014-12-22T03:50:23Z average: beach , beach what you're describing sounds a lot like something I've read about recently(although haven't studied it very much). it's called "Dynamic instrumentation" 2014-12-22T03:50:30Z beach: nyef: So perhaps that would be a somewhat more manageable project. 2014-12-22T03:50:55Z average: nyef: ^^ 2014-12-22T03:51:01Z average: brucem: ^^ 2014-12-22T03:51:29Z beach: average: Me? Nah. 2014-12-22T03:53:07Z kanru` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-12-22T03:53:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:53:37Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-22T03:53:53Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:54:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:54:22Z nyef: Still, the main angle is to have a "good" debugging experience with a standalone Lisp executable. 2014-12-22T03:54:54Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T03:54:55Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:55:20Z brucem: average: nah ... to me that's something else from what I said. 2014-12-22T03:55:45Z average: brucem: hmm, ok 2014-12-22T03:55:47Z beach: I did read "About Face 3" by Alan Cooper. It's a strange book, but I did learn a lot about UI design. 2014-12-22T03:56:07Z rk[utNaboot] is now known as rk[abc] 2014-12-22T03:56:12Z average: brucem , nyef are you working together on that project ? 2014-12-22T03:56:43Z brucem: nyef: I'm not working on anything with anyone here. :) But I use a system that can operate the way that I described. 2014-12-22T03:56:49Z brucem: err, average: ^ 2014-12-22T03:57:32Z nyef: brucem: I'm still at the "I have a few ideas, but no actual project definition yet" stage. 2014-12-22T03:57:46Z nyef: Err... Meant to direct that to average. 2014-12-22T03:58:05Z brucem: nyef and I are equally confused though! :) 2014-12-22T03:58:05Z nyef: brucem: I must have missed your mentions of the system that you use... 2014-12-22T03:58:23Z nyef: Yeah, apparently. (-: 2014-12-22T03:58:28Z brucem: nyef: I'd only said: [10:40:25] average: You can use debugging interfaces to implement hot code swapping and many other things so that you can use the compiler in a separate process and have the running target be very slim / small ... with just a debugging nub in the target. 2014-12-22T03:58:47Z nyef: Ah, right, that. 2014-12-22T03:58:54Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-12-22T03:59:30Z nyef: Your debugging nub can, in fact, be as small as a single syscall instruction with a known address. 2014-12-22T03:59:37Z chu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T04:00:29Z brucem: nyef: that's how Open Dylan operates on Windows ... but there's some other messiness to accomplish that (loose vs tight compilation mode, where loose is "incremental" ... full optimizations aren't done, but it is useful during development / iteration ... and then you can crank out an optimized binary for deployment.) 2014-12-22T04:01:08Z beach: It reminds me of an exercise I did for my students many years ago. I had them compile and link a program with an empty main(). Then they had to use GDB as a REPL to do things like open X11 windows and stuff. 2014-12-22T04:01:33Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:01:46Z nyef: beach: Nicely vicious! (-: 2014-12-22T04:02:11Z beach: It was about the power of the debugging tools and how not to ignore that power. 2014-12-22T04:02:39Z nyef: I have some proof-of-concept code and design notes for working with ptrace from SBCL, from about six years ago. 2014-12-22T04:02:46Z _zxq9_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-12-22T04:02:51Z nyef: Five and a half at most recent. 2014-12-22T04:03:35Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:04:54Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:07:56Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:08:24Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:09:26Z nyef: beach: The definite impression that I'm getting is that it's about the conjunction of small distributable executables and an excellent debugging experience (far better than is provided by SBCL), along with exploring an under-appreciated section of the implementation space. 2014-12-22T04:10:42Z kanru` joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:10:47Z beach: nyef: It sounds like a great project. 2014-12-22T04:11:27Z nyef: It could be, but I'm not sure I have a good enough angle on it for it to be viable. 2014-12-22T04:11:30Z beach: nyef: Is it something you would like to work on by yourself, or you can see others contributing too? 2014-12-22T04:11:47Z isoraqathedh_l joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:12:11Z nyef: At least to begin with, it would have to be me. I'm not sure when or if I would be able to accept additional contributors. 2014-12-22T04:12:23Z gingerale- joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:12:59Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:12:59Z gingerale- is now known as gingerale 2014-12-22T04:13:28Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:13:45Z isoraqathedh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:14:32Z isoraqathedh joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:16:07Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:16:11Z nyef: Now I'm wondering about a custom emacs mode (to use instead of SLIME) as a UI layer. 2014-12-22T04:16:26Z isoraqathedh_l quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:16:48Z beach: Sure, except that you would have to program in Elisp. 2014-12-22T04:16:49Z scharan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:17:15Z nyef: IIRC, Alex Plotnick (sp?) did a presentation at a boston lisp meeting about making a custom emacs<->cl integration instead of using SLIME. 2014-12-22T04:17:31Z nyef: Yes, programming in Elisp is a bit of a drawback. 2014-12-22T04:17:35Z oconnore_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:17:59Z nyef: But it'd save me from having to try and get enough CLIM running to run CLIMACS or similar. 2014-12-22T04:18:11Z InvalidC1 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:18:12Z beach: Sure. 2014-12-22T04:18:16Z nyef: Or even "just" phemlock? 2014-12-22T04:18:21Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:18:47Z beach: Climacs on McCLIM is still "working", though. 2014-12-22T04:19:10Z oconnore joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:19:18Z nyef: I'm still not a fan of McCLIM. 2014-12-22T04:19:19Z beach: And McCLIM could be better for more elaborate UIs than Emacs. 2014-12-22T04:19:27Z beach: Fair enough. 2014-12-22T04:19:53Z InvalidCo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:20:00Z scharan joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:20:23Z nyef: And NQ-CLIM is still not complete enough to use. Certainly can't handle text output, input editing, or the command loop. 2014-12-22T04:21:12Z beach: And CLIMatis still doesn't have presentations. 2014-12-22T04:23:26Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:23:57Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:24:54Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-12-22T04:26:15Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:26:24Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:28:30Z nyef: Still, even after I've nailed down the major angles and whatnot, I expect that there'll still be a good couple of weeks of figuring out the little details for how the basic interactions should work and laying out an overall project plan before I can really start in on coding. 2014-12-22T04:28:40Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:28:40Z chu quit (Changing host) 2014-12-22T04:28:40Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:29:17Z nyef: ... And, yes, :NIL will be on *FEATURES*. It's been a standing joke for long enough, I might as well follow through. 2014-12-22T04:30:09Z sbryant joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:30:18Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:31:06Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:33:21Z leo2007 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T04:34:26Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:37:04Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:38:45Z leo2007 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T04:39:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:39:13Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:39:51Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-22T04:40:27Z nyef: Hrm... 2014-12-22T04:41:43Z nyef: beach: How hard would it be to use cleavir with an adaptor to bounce any form evaluation over to another process, and to load any compiled code in another process instead of the local core or dumping to a fasl file? 2014-12-22T04:42:26Z oleo is now known as Guest80215 2014-12-22T04:43:05Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:43:09Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T04:43:17Z psy_ joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:43:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:44:12Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:45:23Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:45:48Z Guest80215 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:46:20Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:46:20Z nightshade427 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:46:50Z juiko quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:51:02Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:51:03Z Denommus quit (Changing host) 2014-12-22T04:51:03Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:51:52Z chu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:53:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-12-22T04:54:40Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:54:40Z chu quit (Changing host) 2014-12-22T04:54:40Z chu joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:54:59Z kristof: Was common lisp designed to be that decoupled? 2014-12-22T04:55:17Z kristof: If you can use it in that way, there are so many opportunities 2014-12-22T04:55:38Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T04:56:19Z nyef: Are there really, though? 2014-12-22T04:57:38Z nyef: I get the impression that AKCL and implementations of similar lineage have some degree of support for that kind of thing, but I'm really not sure. 2014-12-22T04:58:13Z chef__ quit (Quit: Quit) 2014-12-22T04:58:59Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-12-22T05:00:29Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-12-22T05:00:55Z theos joined #lisp 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: ccl-logbot johann milosn Patzy jtza8 octophore theseb EvW towodo s00pcan oleo mingvs Bicyclidine hekmek zophy shka jumblerg Karl_Dscc reb` motersen gravicappa gingerale cpc26_ ASau cmack Hexstream yenda chu enitiz fantazo drdanmaku wheelsucker lispfromzero TristamWrk leo2007 thawes ahungry Adlai theos bananapeel sheilong LiamH troydm munksgaard ferada hiyosi vaporatorius pjb yeticry newcup yrk average moei keen___________9 DrCode manuel__ nydel angavrilov 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: nyef ggole wooden hardenedapple edgar-rft ivan4th trn ft BitPuffin arpunk _5kg backupthrick mtd aftershave k-stz _zxq9_ Vutral ehu harish eazar001 isoraqathedh corni wg1024 tmh_ mrSpec ecraven josteink tesuji mishoo Shinmera sdemarre H4ns Kanae quazimodo MoALTz mathrick nightshade427 sbryant Petit_Dejeuner seg ThePhoeron djinni` yeltzooo9 edran fmu nitro_idiot_ capitaomorte` AntiSpamMeta grungier killmaster luis psy_ Kruppe scharan oconnore InvalidCo 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: Longlius cibs kushal ndrei loke atgreen yorick ircbrowse abbe tharugrim kalzz karswell dmiles_afk araujo Mon_Ouie egp_ hitecnologys dandersen klltkr gensym froggey guaqua salv0 justinmcp_ nand1 easye MrWoohoo fikusz REPLeffect joneshf-laptop PuercoPop Zhivago s_e Sgeo kirin` Hydan farhaven DeadTrickster billstclair necronian cjmacs diginet joshe joast whowantstolivefo c74d rtoym K1rk blahzik Oddity Intensity Takumo scymtym Soft- sol__ larme cosmicexplorer 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: qlkzy kyl_ nisstyre Subfusc sauerkra- bege rick-monster dxtr bjorkintosh les Phreak quasisane aksatac anunnaki Neptu brent80_plow specbot dan64- tokenrove vlnx redline6561 clop3 tbarletz AeroNotix heurist jayne_ Rudolph-Miller_ rvirding dtw transfinite ssake fe[nl]ix flip214 d4gg4d soggybread p4nd4m4n_ gluegadget joga White_Flame NhanH lonjil chrnybo` endou______ wilfredh__ Amaan rs0 funnel arrdem lifenoodles_ acieroid rvchangue_ _8hzp sellout samebcha1e 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: replcated_ peterhil` rme tadni ered swflint arrsim stacksmith gko superjudge ConstantineXVI chameco ggherdov sword`` |3b| jeaye jpanest someone girrig FrostyX PinealGlandOptic ivan\ hugod abeaumont_ whartung TrafficMan_ Natch akkad emlow gniourf peccu2 SHODAN axion honkfestival galdor_ finnrobi_ Fade ianhedoesit drmeister gendl Colleen enfors zeroish sid_cypher Ralt Ober ramus kanru wglb srcerer jim87864` misv eee-blt aerique bobbysmith007 Khisanth Mandus 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: Grue` j0ni kbtr notty mearnsh jocuman TDT katco ``Erik minion nowhereman gabot p_l|backup schoppenhauer Adeon bool_ rk[abc] kjeldahl clog ski nightfly drdo jdz CrazyEddy gz johs __main__ cpt_nemo cmatei z0d alexherbo2 shifty778 roo dim enn jasom pok_ GuilOooo paritybit copec GGMethos Anarch Plazma pillton byte48 alchemis7 schjetne nicdev splittist clop2 BlastHardcheese brucem Posterdati lieven ska-fan Odin- xristos bambams Kohelet Xach tessier_ brandonz_ 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: john-mcaleely sivoais ozzloy vhost- housel vsync shwouchk stopbit wasamasa yrdz faheem_ Riviera Blkt stux|RC-only _death daimrod cods mood snafuchs dlowe pchrist sshirokov j_king antoszka benny p_l zickzackv ck_ mband eMBee sjl oGMo tkd yauz eak_ cross zbigniew tstc rotty_ sigjuice ttm stokachu tomaw sfa Neet aap thomas smull phadthai vert2 theBlackDragon jsnell cmbntr eagleflo Tordek danlentz phf` sytse mikaelj lpaste Tristam zymurgy jtz xorpse Borbus_ 2014-12-22T18:55:15Z names: hyoyoung_ gabc wormphle1m viaken alpha- segmond emma dfox cyraxjoe victor_lowther teiresias avawn lemoinem krrrcks gregburd_ qbit gf3 2014-12-22T19:02:05Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:03:21Z hekmek quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-12-22T19:03:40Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-12-22T19:06:34Z Denommus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:06:49Z pjb: zophy: lisp is easy. 2014-12-22T19:07:33Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-22T19:13:33Z Hexstream: Lisp is easy. Programming is easy. Project management is HARD! Shit was so much easier when I just had to sit down and code. 2014-12-22T19:14:29Z lispfromzero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T19:16:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-22T19:39:09Z White_Flame: Lisp is so parenthetical 2014-12-22T19:39:39Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-22T19:39:43Z White_Flame: (and it also needs an 'a' so I can use 'acronymical') 2014-12-22T19:40:53Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:41:12Z shka: any idea on how to use format to print a tree? 2014-12-22T19:41:20Z rszeno joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:41:20Z shka: basicly, a recursive tree 2014-12-22T19:41:34Z shka: or more precise 2014-12-22T19:41:37Z shka: BST tree 2014-12-22T19:41:48Z nyef: ... "BST" tree? 2014-12-22T19:42:35Z rszeno binary search tree? 2014-12-22T19:42:40Z White_Flame: make a print-object method for your node type? 2014-12-22T19:42:51Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:42:57Z Fade: https://github.com/scymtym/utilities.print-tree/ 2014-12-22T19:43:26Z Fade: ah, it's in quicklisp. 2014-12-22T19:44:13Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-12-22T19:44:51Z shka: White_Flame: yeah, that's the plan 2014-12-22T19:45:24Z shka: but should i simply get tree level, than place root, than print all childrens in recursive way or there is other way? 2014-12-22T19:47:53Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-22T19:49:09Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-12-22T19:49:28Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T19:49:53Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:52:23Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-12-22T19:52:47Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:54:20Z drmeister: I have C-c C-c working with SLIME in Clasp. When I press "v" in a backtrace it jumps to the appropriate place in the file. 2014-12-22T19:54:40Z Xach: drmeister: nice 2014-12-22T19:54:53Z White_Flame: shka: your print-object body will generally recurse into printing the contents of that node via format. Note that you can bind dynamic variables around that inner format call, to pass context between output renderings 2014-12-22T19:55:17Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-12-22T19:56:22Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T19:56:39Z drmeister: Now I need compile-file-and-load (for some reason it says the compile fails). 2014-12-22T19:57:21Z ASau joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:57:54Z Natch quit (Quit: exit(EXIT_FAILURE);) 2014-12-22T19:58:09Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-12-22T19:59:36Z jumblerg joined #lisp 2014-12-22T20:00:20Z akkad finds lisp generated binaries very hard to hide symbols/strings 2014-12-22T20:00:57Z Shinmera: Commercial implementations offer ways to scramble the binary, iirc. 2014-12-22T20:02:13Z akkad: can't even strip them without carnage 2014-12-22T20:02:37Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-12-22T20:02:55Z Xach: sbcl has obfuscated strings! 2014-12-22T20:03:08Z Xach: it cleverly pads them out to four octets 2014-12-22T20:03:17Z akkad: so 32bit byle aligned? 2014-12-22T20:03:18Z Xach: per character, that is 2014-12-22T20:03:21Z akkad: byte 2014-12-22T20:03:25Z akkad: utf8? 2014-12-22T20:03:41Z Hexstream: That would be UTF-32 I think. 2014-12-22T20:03:44Z Xach: It's not really obfuscation. It's just the internal representation. I can never remember if it's UCS- or UTF-32. I think the UCS thing. 2014-12-22T20:03:56Z Xach: There's some subtle difference that a googlin' would illuminate. 2014-12-22T20:06:18Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-22T20:06:50Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-12-22T20:07:46Z Xach: A googlin' suggests no such difference. Thanks, google. 2014-12-22T20:08:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-12-22T20:09:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-22T20:16:39Z dim: it's UCS-2 and UTF-16 where you have meaningful differences, IIRC 2014-12-22T20:16:51Z dim: as in UTF-16 could use up to 4 bytes per character 2014-12-22T20:17:11Z dim: where ucs-2 is always 2 bytes but quite "limited" in terms of unicode planes implemented/available 2014-12-22T20:17:32Z dim: well, from memory, because I needed a break while writing some code in the evening ;-) 2014-12-22T20:18:36Z wg1024 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-12-22T20:19:13Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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It's better to optimize code that's actually performance-critical as determined by a profiler... 2014-12-22T23:02:01Z Hexstream: I mean, hopefully not a global (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)). 2014-12-22T23:03:05Z axion: yes, i would never use safety0...maybe 1 2014-12-22T23:03:31Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-12-22T23:04:04Z Hexstream: Well, safety 1 is already the default. 2014-12-22T23:04:35Z axion: right. i measured different qualities, and the only thing that really seems to affect anything is speed 3 2014-12-22T23:04:52Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-12-22T23:05:34Z Hexstream: axion: Different implementations have different heuristics, some of those heuristics are sometimes like "If SPEED > SAFETY, then..." 2014-12-22T23:05:47Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2014-12-22T23:05:56Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-12-22T23:06:42Z antonv joined #lisp 2014-12-22T23:06:44Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-12-22T23:08:07Z axion: right, i'm only really interested if my code will perform better on sbcl, which has similar heuristics, but does not say if it applies only to current file or not 2014-12-22T23:08:22Z axion: i'm not doing anything too dangerous...just speed 3 2014-12-22T23:08:32Z White_Flame: akkad: LispWorks owns the copyright to the hyperspec itself, so their site is canonical 2014-12-22T23:09:10Z White_Flame: (with regard to the hyperspec. The ANSI spec is canonical to CL itself) 2014-12-22T23:11:34Z rme: axion: You can write (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (declaim (optimize speed))) at the top of a file, and that will cause compile-file to process the file with that optimize setting in effect. In many cases, it's better to add declarations to individual functions than to entire files, but you know your circumstances best. 2014-12-22T23:12:17Z Hexstream: axion: Note that even if you discover what particular behavior some particular version of SBCL implements for an implementation-defined behavior, unless otherwise documented this behavior could change in the future without notice... 2014-12-22T23:12:53Z axion: yes, i only really want to optimize a file with a lot of heavy math functions (for a game). i want them to apply to all functions, but not to other files 2014-12-22T23:12:58Z Hexstream: Some portability concerns apply even if you only ever use one particular implementation. 2014-12-22T23:13:18Z bsima joined #lisp 2014-12-22T23:13:42Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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