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2014-12-19T00:02:35Z Xach: aha
2014-12-19T00:02:43Z Xach: it's a file with a pathname that is too long for standard tar
2014-12-19T00:03:03Z Xach: so it named <digest>.data and is preceded by a header that gives the full name
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2014-12-19T00:03:20Z Xach: <digest>.data is outside of the normal antik/ directory structure
2014-12-19T00:03:21Z Xach: fun!
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2014-12-19T00:06:29Z eudoxia: that's awful
2014-12-19T00:06:35Z eudoxia: tell the guy to fix his project
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2014-12-19T00:07:01Z Xach: ehhh. it's not his fault my trivial untar program is too stupid.
2014-12-19T00:07:33Z dim: well is there such a thing as a tar format spec?
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2014-12-19T00:07:46Z Xach: dim: there's posix tar and some other applicable specs
2014-12-19T00:08:37Z dim: yeah I'd be surprised "tar specs" are a unique thing, it sounds almost as precise as a csv specs (*cough*)
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2014-12-19T00:09:20Z dim: but anyway, time to enjoy the night here... by sleeping ;-)
2014-12-19T00:09:22Z dim: see ya
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2014-12-19T01:54:25Z akkad: Xach 2001-08-#linpeople.log:[08/20/01 @ 09:39:39] <Bowie> "Bowie J. Poag, you are batshit insane." - Zachary Beane # this you?
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2014-12-19T02:20:16Z jasom: dim: USTar is fairly well standardized
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2014-12-19T03:39:45Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-12-19T03:39:45Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: do you have paredit-mode active in slime-repl?  Without paredit, C-M-f is bound to plain emacs forward-sexp instead of paredit-forward.  If the sexp is not bland (ie. if it contains CL specific reader macros, not know of emacs lisp), they may behave differently.
2014-12-19T03:40:16Z beach: pjb: Thanks, I'll try that.
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2014-12-19T03:55:14Z wglb: Someone posted the link http://metamodular.com/chap-9.pdf the other day, saying that this was produced from TeX input (not LaTeX).  Is the entire standard available in TeX form?
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2014-12-19T03:55:34Z beach: wglb: The draft standard.
2014-12-19T03:55:41Z beach: "dpANS"
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2014-12-19T03:56:32Z beach: wglb: But I understand the difference between that and the final standard is small.
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2014-12-19T03:59:19Z drl: When I start slime I get: "End of file during parsing" while loading the history.
2014-12-19T03:59:30Z drl: Specifically what file is this?
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2014-12-19T04:00:59Z beach thinks wglb must have fainted from joy.
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2014-12-19T04:01:51Z wglb: beach: It does look quite lovely. Is the rest of the .TeX available?
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2014-12-19T04:01:58Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-19T04:02:31Z beach: It's very hard to find using Google, though (for me at least).  I downloaded it to my own computer.
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2014-12-19T04:04:09Z drmeister: Hello
2014-12-19T04:04:17Z beach: Hello drmeister
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2014-12-19T04:04:48Z Xach: akkad: I am Zachary Beane.
2014-12-19T04:05:10Z beach: wglb: Sorry, I can't find it again, and I can't remember what words I used in the search.
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2014-12-19T04:07:16Z beach: drmeister: Enjoying developing with SLIME?
2014-12-19T04:07:17Z drmeister: Does anyone know the reason for *load-pathname* and *load-truename* or *compile-file-pathname* and *compile-file-truename*?   Why *xxx-pathname* and *xxx-truename*?
2014-12-19T04:08:14Z drmeister: I ask because C-c C-c in SLIME writes the code to compile into a temporary file and spoofs the compile-file function into thinking it's compiling part of a different file.
2014-12-19T04:08:17Z Xach: drmeister: pathname is the actual arg to LOAD, which might be relative. truename is the canonical location.
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2014-12-19T04:08:35Z Xach: the truename is super-handy and i am very glad it is standard
2014-12-19T04:08:50Z Xach: i don't think that answers your question but maybe it does!
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2014-12-19T04:10:01Z loke: wait a minute here
2014-12-19T04:10:07Z loke: drmeister: didn't use to use slime?
2014-12-19T04:10:12Z drmeister: Would it be wrong to set *compile-file-pathname* to something like /tmp/temp-filexxx and *compile-file-truename* to /the/real/filename ?   Or am I misunderstanding and the *compile-file-truename* has to derive from (truename *compile-file-pathname*)?
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2014-12-19T04:11:06Z drmeister: Why is everyone surprised?  - I didn't have a working Common Lisp until recently, so I didn't have SLIME.
2014-12-19T04:11:21Z loke: drmeister: I'd have expected you to use a different CL as well?
2014-12-19T04:12:03Z drmeister: I used the ECL Common Lisp source code - but I had to build the underlying C++ code from scratch.
2014-12-19T04:12:25Z loke: drmeister: So you were never actually developing in CL before that?
2014-12-19T04:12:30Z drmeister: No.
2014-12-19T04:12:32Z Xach: drmeister: i think both pathnames should refer to the same file, where the pathname version might be incomplete
2014-12-19T04:12:34Z loke: wow
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2014-12-19T04:12:47Z loke: Impressive indeed
2014-12-19T04:13:23Z drmeister: Xach: That helps a lot.
2014-12-19T04:15:01Z drmeister: loke: Thanks - when I discovered Common Lisp I had a lot of pent up need for it.  It spoke to me in a way that lesser languages never have.
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2014-12-19T04:16:45Z Hexstream: A familiar story. :)
2014-12-19T04:17:55Z wglb: beach: They are apparently here: ftp://parcftp.xerox.com/pub/cl/
2014-12-19T04:17:58Z wglb: (not)
2014-12-19T04:18:26Z loke: drmeister: Yes, happens a lot :-)  Although most people don't do the work to implement their own CL :-)
2014-12-19T04:19:09Z drmeister: Yes, a story we've all heard a hundred times.  A story about a stunningly handsome boy from a small town who programmed for 30 years in one-dimensional languages and who just as he was becoming tired of writing for-loops and setters and getters discovered Common Lisp and macros and decided to write his own implementation.
2014-12-19T04:19:40Z beach: wglb: Good luck.  I have them on my computer for now.  Maybe I should back them up somewhere since they are so hard to find.
2014-12-19T04:19:59Z Hexstream: Ok, I really meant "A familiar story beginning".
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2014-12-19T04:20:46Z drmeister: Hexstream - I'm just amusing myself - don't worry.
2014-12-19T04:21:06Z wglb: beach: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/standard/ansi/dpans/ looks promising
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2014-12-19T04:21:19Z Hexstream: drmeister: I'm not worrying at all. At all. Not about you, anyway.
2014-12-19T04:21:27Z loke: drmeister: Yes. Except for the stunningly handsome part. I think you're the exception there. No offence to the rest of the channel members intended
2014-12-19T04:21:41Z beach: wglb: That's it!
2014-12-19T04:21:55Z drmeister: Ok, so I'll treat *xxx-pathname* and *xxx-truename* as relating to the same file and do the compile-file spoofing some other way.
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2014-12-19T04:23:04Z loke: I was working on a tool to extract the core definitions and cross-references from the TeX source. Lots and lots of regexes. Didn't go too well. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to base it off of a LALR parser. If you want to see my work-in-progress, you're welcome here:
2014-12-19T04:23:04Z wglb: Turns out that I use CL (sbcl) to generate latex files for my professional reports.
2014-12-19T04:23:18Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/parse-lisp-spec
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2014-12-19T04:24:24Z beach: loke: eudoxia claims to have made progress parsing the entire thing.
2014-12-19T04:24:35Z loke: who/what is that?
2014-12-19T04:24:55Z beach: eudoxia is a #lisp participant.
2014-12-19T04:25:19Z loke: My goal was to create a Sexp or XML document describing the entire content
2014-12-19T04:25:34Z loke: That wasy I could create an integrated cross-ref tool in SLIME
2014-12-19T04:25:42Z beach: https://github.com/eudoxia0/cl-ansi-spec
2014-12-19T04:26:12Z loke: as well as automatically read docstrings from othe rpackages and seamlessly integrate everything into docbrowser (https://github.com/lokedhs/docbrowser)
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2014-12-19T04:28:08Z loke: Was the spec originally written in TeX?
2014-12-19T04:28:18Z beach: I suppose so.
2014-12-19T04:28:22Z loke: or is the tex files we have the output from some original sources, lost to time?
2014-12-19T04:29:01Z Hexstream: loke: I've made some progress with doing some cross-referencing of the CLHS by doing everything by hand (yes, I'm crazy and things aren't really getting better). Here's what it looks like so far (incomplete): http://www.hexstreamsoft.com/articles/notes-tips-standard-common-lisp-symbols/
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2014-12-19T04:31:03Z loke: Hexstream: wow
2014-12-19T04:31:17Z Hexstream: loke: It only costed me most of my sanity!
2014-12-19T04:31:22Z loke: haha
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2014-12-19T04:35:59Z beach: drmeister: Still here?
2014-12-19T04:36:23Z drmeister: Yes
2014-12-19T04:36:45Z beach: drmeister: I am not sure you saw it, but I said yesterday that I am making good progress on HIR->MIR.
2014-12-19T04:37:09Z beach: drmeister: I can now transform HIR to eliminate captured variables in favor of access to "cells".
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2014-12-19T04:37:38Z beach: drmeister: Next, I must figure out what to do with constants.
2014-12-19T04:37:41Z drmeister: Oh no - that's exciting!
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2014-12-19T04:38:12Z drmeister: It's exam week
2014-12-19T04:38:24Z beach: Good, that gives me some more time.
2014-12-19T04:38:25Z beach: :)
2014-12-19T04:38:50Z drmeister: What are cells?
2014-12-19T04:39:33Z beach: Some abstraction that stands for some implementation-specific place where a captured variable is stored.
2014-12-19T04:39:39Z drmeister: I mean what are they in the context of hir->Mir
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2014-12-19T04:40:27Z beach: In the most general case, they must be allocated on the heap.
2014-12-19T04:40:27Z beach: For SICL, I intend to just use a CONS cell.
2014-12-19T04:40:38Z drmeister: Are they meant to be on the heap or can they be on the stack. Is there still a determination to be made?
2014-12-19T04:40:51Z beach: So for SICL, the instructions that create, read, and write cells are just ordinary CONS, CAR, and CDR.
2014-12-19T04:41:17Z beach: drmeister: I am doing one thing at a time.  Right now I do the most general thing and assume they will be on the heap.
2014-12-19T04:41:33Z beach: drmeister: But this happens only to captured variables.
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2014-12-19T04:41:52Z beach: Most functions don't even use captured variables.
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2014-12-19T04:43:19Z drmeister: Ok. Do you have an example?
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2014-12-19T04:43:59Z drmeister: I scrolled back but #lisp has been busy. That's good
2014-12-19T04:44:10Z beach: I do, but I need to find the URL again.
2014-12-19T04:44:55Z beach: "drmeister: I promised some figures of that.  Here is one of (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))): http://metamodular.com/transformed-hir.png"
2014-12-19T04:46:00Z beach: You also see the entire thing wrapped in (lambda () ...) as I told you a week or so ago.
2014-12-19T04:46:28Z wglb: loke: Wow, like you have the whoe standard in there as well. Nice.
2014-12-19T04:47:02Z beach: drmeister: The new color (aquamarine) is that of immediate inputs, in this case 0.
2014-12-19T04:47:11Z drmeister: Does create cell only create one cell at a time?
2014-12-19T04:47:17Z beach: Yes.
2014-12-19T04:47:50Z beach: drmeister: After the discussion with nyef, it became clear that it has to be done that way to avoid that some data be retained.
2014-12-19T04:49:03Z drmeister: Ok, I'll think on this. I'll have time tomorrow to work on clasp again. I'll hopefully finish basic Slime integration.
2014-12-19T04:49:05Z beach: drmeister: Basically, when a closure is created, it must be given cells on an individual basis.
2014-12-19T04:50:16Z drmeister: C-c C-c requires more work than I thought
2014-12-19T04:50:39Z beach: drmeister: Sure, take your time.  I still have plenty of work to do.
2014-12-19T04:51:23Z drmeister: Ok I'll talk to you soon. Good night
2014-12-19T04:51:45Z beach: Good night drmeister.
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2014-12-19T05:00:17Z gabriel_laddel: beach: offhand do you know I would go about getting the output record corresponding to an object I've presented in McCLIM? I've a drag and drop that re-presents the object and I'd prefer not to have the other output record hanging around (which you can still highlight with the mouse etc - if not, don't worry about it. I'll end up finding it anyways, but my inital perusal of the spec and CLIM user's guide didn't turn
2014-12-19T05:00:17Z gabriel_laddel:  anything up.).
2014-12-19T05:01:17Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I don't think you can easily get to the output record from the object only.
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2014-12-19T05:02:23Z beach: I suppose you can search the entire stream though.
2014-12-19T05:02:48Z gabriel_laddel: beach: right... this feels wrong though.
2014-12-19T05:03:13Z gabriel_laddel: beach: should I be moving the output record's xy pos instead?
2014-12-19T05:03:36Z beach: For drag-and-drop?  I don't know. :(
2014-12-19T05:03:43Z gabriel_laddel: kk.
2014-12-19T05:04:20Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Are you using this version of the spec: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html ?
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2014-12-19T05:04:36Z beach: It is way better than anything else.
2014-12-19T05:04:50Z gabriel_laddel: beach: I am.
2014-12-19T05:04:55Z beach: Good! :)
2014-12-19T05:05:00Z gabriel_laddel: on the bright side, I can't express how nifty it is that I can *gasp* drag and drop an image into the place that I want it and then write out that position for the next time I bring up the document.
2014-12-19T05:05:19Z beach: Heh!  Yes, I see.
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2014-12-19T05:13:42Z gabriel_laddel: while I'm here asking questions... does anyone know why code that I'm not expressly entering into SLIME wouldn't be able to 'see' the *emacs-connection* variable? when debugging in SLDB I can eval-in-frame and see it, but the code cannot (it reports that it is nil). wtf.
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2014-12-19T05:25:09Z gabriel_laddel: nevermind, I hacked around it.
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2014-12-19T05:35:42Z drl: ====xaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno
2014-12-19T05:35:43Z drl: Specifically what file is this?
2014-12-19T05:35:45Z drl:   
2014-12-19T05:35:50Z drl: ====xaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno
2014-12-19T05:35:52Z drl: e
2014-12-19T05:35:54Z drl: e
2014-12-19T05:35:55Z drl: e
2014-12-19T05:36:07Z drl:         e
2014-12-19T05:36:20Z drl:  **3
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2014-12-19T06:53:24Z beach: In general, do Common Lisp implementations have a "function cell" in each symbol S?  If not, where do they store the function with the name S?  If they do, where do they store the function named (SETF S)?
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2014-12-19T06:56:49Z Bike: looks like sbcl stores both in its info thing.
2014-12-19T06:57:04Z beach: So not in the symbol?
2014-12-19T06:57:14Z Bike: doesn't seem so.
2014-12-19T06:57:19Z beach: OK.
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2014-12-19T07:01:54Z beach: Then it might not be that hard to implement first-class global environments in SBCL. :)
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2014-12-19T07:08:39Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-12-19T07:32:06Z akkad: is ccl the closest to having something like capi for osx?
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2014-12-19T07:35:13Z pjb: akkad: there's nothing likke capi. On OSX, you would use Cocoa directly.
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2014-12-19T07:35:48Z Shinmera: loke: The guts of the dpANS parser eudoxia is working on is https://github.com/Shinmera/plump-tex which will give you translation to XML and SEXPs (with plump-sexp) for free.
2014-12-19T07:35:49Z pjb: Or the closest to capi would be McCLIM, perhaps.
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2014-12-19T07:40:41Z akkad: thanks
2014-12-19T07:40:57Z akkad: ccl seems to have native cocoa support
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2014-12-19T07:42:20Z Ober: akkad: tell me you did not pay for that lw stuff
2014-12-19T07:42:59Z Ober: akkad: stick with sbcl, ccl
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2014-12-19T07:43:54Z akkad: Ober: you're poor, I'm sorry :P
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2014-12-19T07:45:10Z Ober: akkad: also sbcl compression is pretty good for solving that other issue you had
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2014-12-19T08:06:34Z kami:  Good morning.
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2014-12-19T08:12:11Z akkad: hi
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2014-12-19T08:14:15Z Shinmera wonders if he should change his nick to hasami to make a cheap joke
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2014-12-19T08:15:02Z Shinmera: Anyway, good morning, #lisp
2014-12-19T08:15:34Z Shinmera: Anything interesting happening on a Friday before the holidays?
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2014-12-19T08:30:41Z kami: Good morning Shinmera, akkad.
2014-12-19T08:30:55Z kami: Any contextl users awake?
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2014-12-19T09:42:55Z dim: Xach: to answer your question (about debian packages fasl files) fully: https://packages.debian.org/sid/all/cl-esrap/filelist -- no fasl
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2014-12-19T10:33:26Z vmw: is it possible to write low level lisp? or at leat as low level as c
2014-12-19T10:33:28Z vmw: i.e pointers
2014-12-19T10:33:36Z H4ns: vmw: yes.
2014-12-19T10:33:41Z vmw: is it reasonable to do so?
2014-12-19T10:33:51Z H4ns: vmw: for some value of reasonable, yes
2014-12-19T10:33:54Z loke: vmw: Whever you create a cons in lisp you effectively have a pointer
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2014-12-19T10:34:34Z vmw: may i have a book recommendation please
2014-12-19T10:35:11Z H4ns: vmw: the lisp machine manual documents an operating system that is written entirely in lisp
2014-12-19T10:35:24Z H4ns: vmw: you can devise a number of low-level techniques from it.
2014-12-19T10:36:28Z vmw: H4ns: cool
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2014-12-19T10:38:15Z loke: vmw: what is it you want to do?
2014-12-19T10:38:42Z vmw: loke: At this point, learn lisp. :)
2014-12-19T10:38:54Z loke: vmw: Then it's way too early to think of that
2014-12-19T10:39:19Z loke: vmw: There mustobvioysly be something specific you want to do to make you ask such a question. (hardware interfaces perhaps?)
2014-12-19T10:39:33Z vmw: loke: I was just wondering about it.
2014-12-19T10:39:42Z H4ns: i find system programming to be a nice field to learn a new language in
2014-12-19T10:40:24Z vmw: Why is systems programming done more in c than it is in lisp, I wonder.
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2014-12-19T10:40:29Z H4ns: not everyone finds e.g. "ai techniques" or "games" all that appealing for learning purposes
2014-12-19T10:40:34Z dim: unix, I would guess
2014-12-19T10:40:51Z H4ns: vmw: it is done more in c because when most operating systems were initially created, computers were slow
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2014-12-19T10:41:15Z dim: they had OS before C too
2014-12-19T10:41:16Z H4ns: vmw: and c, because it does not offer a lot of costly abstractions, was a good tool for writing operating systems for slow machines.
2014-12-19T10:41:27Z H4ns: dim: right.  written in bcpl, or assembler.
2014-12-19T10:41:38Z Shinmera: Unix is a C environment, so it has lots of support for C applications.
2014-12-19T10:42:01Z H4ns: Shinmera: ?
2014-12-19T10:42:05Z dim: IIUC the C language was done to be able to port the same OS to a new hardware, it's like a portable assembly language
2014-12-19T10:42:12Z loke: vmw: Now, if you want to go _really_ low-level, you can do this: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/08/16/how-to-define-new-intrinsics-in-sbcl/
2014-12-19T10:42:52Z H4ns: dim: right.  at the time unix was created, assembly language was the only language that was widely used for writing operating systems, and c was a step forward.
2014-12-19T10:43:00Z vmw: ooh.
2014-12-19T10:43:01Z H4ns: dim: that was like 40 years ago.
2014-12-19T10:43:37Z H4ns: it is depressing to recognize that we're still dealing with operating systems written in c, given that we have made so much progress in machine speed and software technology.
2014-12-19T10:43:48Z dim: yeah, and we're still about there at the same place now when using linux... it's not true from all angles, but well, not much progress has been made
2014-12-19T10:43:55Z H4ns: anyway, in the 1980ies, writing operating systems in lisp was a viable approach and it has been done.
2014-12-19T10:44:14Z Shinmera: If we're going down that road we might as well plug Movitz here
2014-12-19T10:44:28Z dim: there's mirageos nowadays, I don't know of much other efforts
2014-12-19T10:44:36Z dim: http://www.openmirage.org/
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2014-12-19T10:45:05Z dim: there's http://erlangonxen.org/ and http://kerlnel.org/ too
2014-12-19T10:45:05Z wasamasa: vmw: maybe people don't like large lisp images over tiny executables
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2014-12-19T10:45:13Z H4ns: wat?
2014-12-19T10:45:28Z Shinmera: The executables are only tiny because the C environment is already provided by the OS.
2014-12-19T10:45:46Z wasamasa: therefore... we have to make a lisp OS to fix that
2014-12-19T10:45:46Z H4ns: wasamasa: you are saying that operating systems are not written in lisp because lisp creates large executables?
2014-12-19T10:45:50Z Shinmera: If the OS provided the lisp environment your applications could be small too.
2014-12-19T10:45:54Z wasamasa: H4ns: no, system programming
2014-12-19T10:46:03Z wasamasa: H4ns: I rather thought of all the utilities that make up your typical userland
2014-12-19T10:47:10Z Shinmera: Just live in your lisp image
2014-12-19T10:47:21Z wasamasa: yeah right, who cares about anything outside it
2014-12-19T10:47:42Z wasamasa still grumbles over emacs not being able to do anything useful on external signals
2014-12-19T10:48:13Z vmw: thanks
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2014-12-19T10:51:30Z Shinmera: Well, that ended abruptly.
2014-12-19T10:52:47Z Shinmera: wasamasa: I don't know, to me it seems folly to try and emulate the "tiny applications" idiom when you're using a system that already has to use a whole different environment. If you want to be able to chain into such things I'd rather have an overarching lisp process and call into that to do whatever if you need to bridge from the command line or wherever.
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2014-12-19T10:53:56Z Shinmera is off to lunch now though
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2014-12-19T10:55:09Z wasamasa: I find it a bit sad how lisp and unix don't go well together
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2014-12-19T10:59:42Z H4ns: just let loose of your unix fetish and be happy with lisp :)
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2014-12-19T11:02:33Z dim: I think they go quite well together
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2014-12-19T11:03:50Z dim: it's easy enough to save-lisp-image-and-die in an executable file and provide for an intergrate Unix User Experience: that is a command line with the usual capabilities (reading from stdin, result on stdout, errors on stderr, exit code is 0 on success, etc)
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2014-12-19T11:04:21Z dim: it's even easy to make it a unix daemon with the usual setsid, fork and all management, in a couple lines of lisp, when using cl-daemon or sb-daemon or suchlike
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2014-12-19T11:07:28Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/pgcharts.lisp for an example of unix integration with an embedded webapp written in CL, you just /usr/bin/pgcharts start and then point your browser to http://localhost:9042/
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2014-12-19T11:34:32Z chrnybo: Have any of you attempted to gently introduce strings with unicode in an app/db that started out as mere iso-8859-something?
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2014-12-19T11:51:41Z pjb: chrnybo: I never tried such an horror, but UTF-8 is designed so that it should "mostly" work.
2014-12-19T11:51:57Z pjb: chrnybo: so here, "gently" = "utf-8".
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2014-12-19T11:53:48Z pjb: But don't be surprised if (length "été") --> 5 ; and if this botches various processing, such as displaying nice forms.
2014-12-19T11:54:55Z pjb: chrnybo: now, the question is what you're asking such a question from the past?  Do you know personnally Dr. Emmett Brown?
2014-12-19T11:55:00Z pjb: s/what/why/
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2014-12-19T12:21:50Z wasamasa: dim: well, yes, and then your strip program goes at it and leaves only a few bytes
2014-12-19T12:22:02Z wasamasa: dim: because it expects it to be something generated by gcc or whatever
2014-12-19T12:22:13Z wasamasa: dim: or the signals issue I've mentioned earlier
2014-12-19T12:23:24Z wasamasa: dim: sure, you can control processes from lisp, but the other way around is the problem
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2014-12-19T12:25:34Z Xach: wasamasa: What's the problem?
2014-12-19T12:25:48Z chrnybo: pjb: By gently, I meant storing as utf-8 _and_ not translating all strings to utf-8 at once.  My guess is that this is something I'd regret later.
2014-12-19T12:25:55Z wasamasa: Xach: see the previous two examples
2014-12-19T12:26:30Z Xach: wasamasa: "strip" mangles the binary? what's the other example?
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2014-12-19T12:27:42Z wasamasa: Xach: that sending signals to something resembling a lisp image (like, emacs) is the wrong way and you instead set up something like swank or emacsclient to communicate with it
2014-12-19T12:28:36Z Xach: Why is it the wrong way?
2014-12-19T12:28:46Z wasamasa: because it doesn't work
2014-12-19T12:29:10Z wasamasa: I send an USR2 to a stuck emacs and it replies to that by getting stuck even more
2014-12-19T12:29:30Z Xach: I don't think emacs is a good example of a Lisp implementation.
2014-12-19T12:29:41Z Xach: SBCL and other implementations have signal-handling systems that work fine.
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2014-12-19T12:30:06Z Xach: I don't think it's fair to count emacs flaws against Common Lisp implementations.
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2014-12-19T12:32:41Z dim: it's not only `strip`, it's also prelinking optimization on RHEL, see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/103
2014-12-19T12:32:46Z wasamasa: "The world is inside the lisp image, and everything that is outside doesn't matter and is probably evil."
2014-12-19T12:34:14Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3245983402026014%40naggum.no.html is something interesting on the topic
2014-12-19T12:35:48Z wasamasa: thanks
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2014-12-19T12:47:37Z ggole: Why would you send a process SIGUSR2 and expect it to do what you want?
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2014-12-19T12:48:48Z Xach: ggole: I don't know wasamasa's answer, but for me, I'd expect that if the manual or documentation said so.
2014-12-19T12:49:27Z wasamasa: ggole: in the manual that method is documented as last resort
2014-12-19T12:49:40Z wasamasa: ggole: however it just sent me one recursive editing level deeper
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2014-12-19T12:50:10Z Xach: wasamasa: Where in the manual does it say that?
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2014-12-19T12:51:27Z wasamasa: Xach: (info "(elisp) Error Debugging")
2014-12-19T12:52:32Z ggole: Ah, I see. OK.
2014-12-19T12:52:36Z Xach: Ah, and debug-on-event is sigusr2 by default?
2014-12-19T12:52:47Z wasamasa: yes
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2014-12-19T12:53:38Z ggole: ...wouldn't that be a bug?
2014-12-19T12:53:55Z wasamasa: the package I was attempting to debug is an even greater one :>
2014-12-19T12:54:13Z wasamasa: so no, I'll only report it once I can reproduce it with something radically simpler
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2014-12-19T12:56:29Z ggole: Right.
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2014-12-19T13:38:44Z pjb: chrnybo: you would have to do a clear analysis of data flow, to ensure that you never polute utf-8 strings with iso-8859-1 strings.  It'd be difficult to rely on testing, because any ASCII string is both an UTF-8 string and an ISO-8859-1 string!  So indeed, if you don't want problems convert all your string literals to UTF-8 at once.
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2014-12-19T15:30:26Z oudeis: planet.lisp.org says 403 Forbidden
2014-12-19T15:30:53Z Xach: thanks. i'll fix.
2014-12-19T15:31:22Z Xach: should work now
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2014-12-19T15:31:30Z oudeis: works
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2014-12-19T16:25:37Z Shinmera has found a new favourite article to keep in mind for memory concerned people http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3245969484577540@naggum.no.html
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2014-12-19T16:55:53Z daviid: hello
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2014-12-19T16:59:22Z daviid: i have a clos related quiz, can someone kindly help. here is a asimple example http://paste.lisp.org/display/144835 that i expect to work, but it fails [sbcl 1.2.4, debian testing]. my clos memory is very rusty, so... i expect this example to work because i expect clos to call the (setf !colour) method upon class instanciation for virtually allocated slot
2014-12-19T16:59:29Z daviid: how can i make both virtuaql allocation _and_ initarg properlly work
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2014-12-19T17:00:51Z _death: what is :virtual allocation
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2014-12-19T17:02:09Z jasom: daviid: I think you want :reader !color not :accessor !color
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2014-12-19T17:02:38Z jdz: (defclass <bar> (<foo>) ((background-color :accessor !colour :initarg :colour))) ?
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2014-12-19T17:03:08Z _death: there's no need for :accessor because you define the methods yourself.. also your setf arglist should be reversed
2014-12-19T17:03:16Z jasom: daviid: :accessor defines a setf function, which is not what you want
2014-12-19T17:03:25Z jasom: oh, I missed the reader function too
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2014-12-19T17:06:27Z daviid: jasom: to your fst answer first :) in this example i'm simulation a real case, clutter defines background-color, but i want my clutter actor sublasses to be able to 'understand' the initarg !colour and accessor !colour, so i don't have control over the superclass, it is clutter buit-in
2014-12-19T17:07:12Z jasom: daviid: but you don't need :accessor if you're just going to define them yourselves
2014-12-19T17:07:54Z daviid: ok, but it still won't work
2014-12-19T17:08:34Z daviid: trying
2014-12-19T17:09:04Z jdz: daviid: did you try my code?
2014-12-19T17:09:32Z daviid: jdz your are doing something i can't do in the real case
2014-12-19T17:09:38Z daviid: the superclass is built in
2014-12-19T17:09:44Z jdz: so?
2014-12-19T17:10:10Z daviid: no way i can define (background-color :accessor !colour...) for <foo>
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2014-12-19T17:10:29Z jdz: it's being done on class <bar>
2014-12-19T17:10:29Z daviid: i only have control over <bar> for you to understand
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2014-12-19T17:11:22Z daviid: jdz you're not using virtual allocation
2014-12-19T17:11:31Z daviid: i need exactly what i wrote
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2014-12-19T17:12:03Z daviid: <bar> with a virtually allocated slot that let initarg, read and setf
2014-12-19T17:12:06Z jdz: there is no such thing in common lisp
2014-12-19T17:12:25Z daviid: jdz: that does not make sence, imo
2014-12-19T17:12:31Z jdz: and my definition provides just that: no extra slot, setter, getter, and initiarg
2014-12-19T17:13:30Z daviid: jdz, sorry, but i think you don't understand
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2014-12-19T17:13:58Z jdz: well, that one we can agree on, because i think you don't understand yourself
2014-12-19T17:14:03Z Xach: daviid: I'm trying to understand. What system supports :allocation :virtual as a defclass slot option? It is not standard.
2014-12-19T17:14:06Z daviid: there must be a way to ask clos to properly undedrstand initarg, even for virtually allocated slots, since it does undertand how to read setf...
2014-12-19T17:14:24Z daviid: Xach: almost all modern lisp scheme do
2014-12-19T17:14:36Z Xach: daviid: Common Lisp does not support it. What system are you using?
2014-12-19T17:14:38Z daviid: Xach: you can try sbcl
2014-12-19T17:15:00Z Bike: it's not in sbcl. did you just make up a keyword and expect it to work?
2014-12-19T17:15:21Z daviid: Xach: the xj13 is locked in the passed, clos ha evolved and virtual allocation is essential to moedern lisp 'industrial' code, imo
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2014-12-19T17:15:46Z Shinmera: What
2014-12-19T17:15:46Z Bike: look, none of us have ever heard of this thing.
2014-12-19T17:15:47Z jdz: this is why we can't have nice things
2014-12-19T17:15:52Z daviid: Bike: it is, i 've just firted a slime session to try :)
2014-12-19T17:16:09Z Xach: daviid: you can also use :allocation :daviid and see what happens.
2014-12-19T17:16:11Z Shinmera: I don't know what farting a slime session does
2014-12-19T17:16:13Z Shinmera: but it sounds gross
2014-12-19T17:16:42Z daviid: Shinmera: haha, sorry i menat fired
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2014-12-19T17:16:59Z Bike: luckily that doesn't make much sense either.
2014-12-19T17:17:00Z jdz: firing farts sounds dangerous
2014-12-19T17:17:12Z Shinmera: jdz: It is dangerous, people have tried it
2014-12-19T17:17:32Z Bike: you can put whatever you want for :allocation because of mop. that doesn't mean sbcl knows what the hell it's supposed to mean.
2014-12-19T17:17:39Z Shinmera: Luckily common lisp does not support virtual slots, nor firing farts.
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2014-12-19T17:17:49Z Shinmera: So we're all save from these perils.
2014-12-19T17:17:52Z Shinmera: *safe
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2014-12-19T17:18:47Z jdz: but modern lisp scheme? who's gonna save us from that?
2014-12-19T17:18:51Z daviid: Shinmera: the expression of a terrible ignorance, :allocation :virtual is just a must, anyway, lispers are stuck in the past it appears, too bad
2014-12-19T17:19:03Z Shinmera: I'm fine with the past
2014-12-19T17:19:13Z Shinmera: people in the 70s knew what they were doing at least.
2014-12-19T17:19:21Z Shinmera: Seems much less so the case today.
2014-12-19T17:19:36Z Bike: This is incoherent.
2014-12-19T17:20:46Z Shinmera (defclass dinner () ((food :allocation :reality)))
2014-12-19T17:21:01Z fe[nl]ix: virtual slots ? :allocation :virtual ?
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2014-12-19T17:21:11Z fe[nl]ix: wat
2014-12-19T17:21:20Z Shinmera: fe[nl]ix: Apparently we're stuck in the past
2014-12-19T17:21:54Z brucem: Lispworks does it.
2014-12-19T17:22:16Z brucem: or has sample code for it.
2014-12-19T17:22:28Z Xach: brucem: where is the extension documented? i'd be curious to see what it means on lw.
2014-12-19T17:22:30Z daviid: franz too, all 'real' cl do that , it's been, let's say, 30y
2014-12-19T17:22:41Z brucem: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/LWUG/html/lwuser-173.htm
2014-12-19T17:23:08Z Xach: oh, i believe that's a MOP tutorial.
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2014-12-19T17:23:11Z Xach: -ish
2014-12-19T17:23:25Z Bike: It is. You could even coppy the code and use it in sbcl! How futuristic.
2014-12-19T17:23:49Z Bike: well, adapt. "process-a-slot-option", bah
2014-12-19T17:24:14Z Bike: mop p-a-s-o
2014-12-19T17:24:14Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for p-a-s-o.
2014-12-19T17:24:17Z Xach: daviid: I think you're getting some hostility because what you write is mistaken but you don't seem to be open to feedback.
2014-12-19T17:24:34Z Xach: The insults and typos don't help either.
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2014-12-19T17:24:55Z brucem: Xach: I wonder where Dylan got virtual slots from then ...
2014-12-19T17:24:56Z |3b|: daviid: did you forget a :metaclass option somewhere?
2014-12-19T17:25:26Z Bike: if you're going to be an asshole nobody's going to help you.
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2014-12-19T17:26:04Z |3b|: CL doesn't have :allocation :virtual, but it lets you add it if you want it... but if you don't add it, it won't work
2014-12-19T17:26:04Z fe[nl]ix: I see
2014-12-19T17:26:07Z Xach: brucem: any system could have them, i'm sure. i haven't heard of a common lisp implementation supporting them directly as an extension, though.
2014-12-19T17:26:08Z fe[nl]ix: http://opendylan.org/books/dpg/slots.html#virtual-slots
2014-12-19T17:26:29Z Xach: so any implementation that does support 'em would hopefully document the semantics.
2014-12-19T17:27:02Z fe[nl]ix: a virtual slot is a slot name recognized by slot-value, but which defers to a generic function
2014-12-19T17:27:06Z Xach: It seems a little rude to name it with a keyword, though.
2014-12-19T17:27:21Z fe[nl]ix: it has no storage, but the MOP will list it among the class slots
2014-12-19T17:27:46Z fe[nl]ix: can be useful
2014-12-19T17:29:49Z daviid: it's a shame it did [yet] not made its way to the standard clos spec
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2014-12-19T17:32:02Z Hexstream: daviid: There are some informed criticisms that can be made about Common Lisp, and if you made a significant effort to learn it you could formulate those informed criticisms instead of taking shots in the dark.
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2014-12-19T17:42:50Z daviid: Hexstream: it's a shame that the :virtual slot allocation option hasn't made his way to the clos standard, imo, and beleive me it is not a shot in the dark. anyway, thanks all, back to the future now :)
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2014-12-19T18:55:38Z orthecreedence: hello...how do i get handler-bind to actually stop an error from propagating? i've only ever used handler-case, so it's a bit foreign to me. it seems to be running my handler code but then the error reaches the top level anyway
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2014-12-19T18:56:16Z orthecreedence: or maybe i'm thiking about the problem completely wrong anyway
2014-12-19T18:56:48Z Faed: is the condition being reraised?
2014-12-19T18:57:32Z orthecreedence: nope: https://pastee.org/xzzh5
2014-12-19T18:58:25Z orthecreedence: it prints "cond: my error, err: my error" then triggers the error top-level
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2014-12-19T18:59:49Z Bike: that's because you're not "handling" it.
2014-12-19T19:00:04Z Bike: if the condition handler function returns normally, like yours does, the error keeps propagating upwards.
2014-12-19T19:00:08Z Bike: use a return-from or something in there.
2014-12-19T19:00:45Z Faed: (incf Bike)
2014-12-19T19:01:10Z orthecreedence: so like a (block 'my-handler ...) or something?
2014-12-19T19:01:20Z orthecreedence: (return-from my-block ...)
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2014-12-19T19:01:29Z orthecreedence: err my-handler
2014-12-19T19:01:31Z Bike: exactly
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2014-12-19T19:01:48Z orthecreedence: thanks! i did not understand that at all
2014-12-19T19:01:57Z Bike: (block foo (handler-bind ((condition (lambda (e) (format t ...) (return-from foo ...)))) ...))
2014-12-19T19:02:17Z Bike: other options include calling a restart, that kinda thign
2014-12-19T19:02:35Z orthecreedence: right.
2014-12-19T19:03:12Z orthecreedence: another question: if i do invoke a restart, does that "handle" the error or will it also require a local exit?
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2014-12-19T19:05:00Z Bike: let me find the clhs section, it's way clearer than i could be
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2014-12-19T19:05:30Z Bike: well, basically 9.1 summarizes it
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2014-12-19T19:05:32Z Bike: clhs 9.1
2014-12-19T19:05:32Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
2014-12-19T19:05:40Z Bike: in short yes, invoking a restart is a nonlocal exit
2014-12-19T19:05:41Z orthecreedence: maybe, but you just explained in a one-liner what 30 minutes of reading didnt make me understand
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2014-12-19T19:11:18Z orthecreedence: thanks for your help!
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2014-12-19T19:11:40Z Bike: np
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2014-12-19T19:13:44Z pjb: This daviid was an idiot.  Googling for virtual slot object would have given him an implementation for CLOS as the first hit.
2014-12-19T19:13:55Z pjb: Perhaps the polite term is "troll".
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2014-12-19T19:49:42Z Hexstream: Bike: orthecreedence: I don't think calling a restart automatically counts as performing a non-local exit, it's more like calling a dynamically-bound function. Most restart functions do perform a non-local exit though, which may induce some confusion about this separation of concepts in the minds of some.
2014-12-19T19:50:24Z Hexstream: In fact, I think merely invoking a restart, provided that the restart does not perform a non-local exit, doesn't even count as "handling" a condition.
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2014-12-19T19:57:19Z Hexstream: It's also possible to return values from a restart, I'd like to see a practical real-world not-made-up example of that.
2014-12-19T19:58:36Z theseb: Reading On Lisp I think i'm getting what CL can do..."bottom up programming!?"....altering language to problem instead of specifying problem to language?
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2014-12-19T19:58:53Z theseb: that is sooo different from anything i've seen after programming for 20+ years in other langs
2014-12-19T19:59:32Z Hexstream: It's more like building a language on top of the language than "altering" the language.
2014-12-19T19:59:39Z oleo: how comes you never seen lisp in 20 years ?
2014-12-19T19:59:45Z oleo: its older than 50....
2014-12-19T19:59:45Z j_king: you can program a computer using CL. the whole bottom-up thing is just as valid in C.
2014-12-19T20:00:10Z j_king: but yeah.. the meta-language thing is pretty cool
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2014-12-19T20:01:22Z theseb: oleo: i have but never really took a looong peakie
2014-12-19T20:01:23Z White_Flame: Hexstream: me, too.  It seems like that's more of a holdover from years gone by
2014-12-19T20:01:36Z White_Flame: back when software was smaller in scope
2014-12-19T20:01:40Z theseb: Hexstream: so why again is "bottom up"....better/faster/cheaper than top down with another conventional lang?
2014-12-19T20:01:53Z theseb: Hexstream: i want to be convinced
2014-12-19T20:02:00Z theseb: are there any studies e.g.?
2014-12-19T20:02:22Z White_Flame: theseb: It's more of a bidirectional thing
2014-12-19T20:02:37Z pjb: theseb: check http://cliki.net/Performance for studies.
2014-12-19T20:02:37Z foom: Realistically, Lisp is just another programming language.
2014-12-19T20:02:38Z Hexstream: I'm not in a "convincing" mood. I suggest learning Common Lisp and trying stuff rather than speculating at length.
2014-12-19T20:02:39Z foom: It definitely does let you write more concise programs than, say, C++ or Java.
2014-12-19T20:02:39Z White_Flame: you build stuff; if you find yourself wishing for better building blocks, you can make them
2014-12-19T20:03:47Z theseb: White_Flame: ah yes..you can combine bottom up and top down....yes! genius
2014-12-19T20:04:17Z pjb: theseb: you can do inside-out instead of outside-in.
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2014-12-19T20:04:57Z Hexstream: theseb: When I program against some domain I like to think in terms of the domain, which is to say I adapt my ways of thinking to the domain, and it seems a bit silly to then "talk down" to the computer instead of teaching it the concept of the domains so that it can "directly understand" what I mean exactly.
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2014-12-19T20:05:45Z theseb: Hexstream: wow...this is like entering a new world
2014-12-19T20:05:57Z theseb: Hexstream: the last time i had my mind blown was when i started to learn OOP
2014-12-19T20:06:07Z theseb: and that was beans compared to this
2014-12-19T20:06:54Z pjb: theseb: check https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/oGmha6PbAD4/kmpG51wjJ6gJ
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2014-12-19T20:09:26Z theseb: pjb: nice..thanks
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2014-12-19T20:12:23Z theseb: pjb: nth smallest problem!
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2014-12-19T21:56:01Z sauskesan: Has Common Lisp changed much from Touretzky's Symbolic Computation circa 89?
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2014-12-19T21:56:55Z Hexstream: Common Lisp as a formal ANSI language standard has been published in 1994 and has not changed since then.
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2014-12-19T21:59:31Z Xach: sauskesan: the Gentle Introduction?
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2014-12-19T22:00:03Z sauskesan: Xach, yes.
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2014-12-19T22:01:17Z Xach: sauskesan: I haven't read it, but my impression is that it uses a small subset of CL functionality, stuff that has not changed.
2014-12-19T22:03:22Z Quadrescence: heaven forbid it does not use pprint-exit-if-list-exhausted  or logical-pathname-translations
2014-12-19T22:03:24Z Quadrescence: (:
2014-12-19T22:03:36Z sauskesan: I suppose it couldn't hurt, if only for historical reasons.
2014-12-19T22:03:52Z sauskesan: I also have the other - that which prides itself on the fact that you call it sexy.
2014-12-19T22:04:01Z sauskesan: I think it's called Practical Lisp.
2014-12-19T22:04:09Z Quadrescence: practical common lisp
2014-12-19T22:04:20Z sauskesan nods.
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2014-12-19T23:00:46Z nyef: Good evening all.
2014-12-19T23:01:48Z Quadrescence: hello
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2014-12-19T23:02:43Z tadni_: (greet)
2014-12-19T23:04:05Z Xach: nyef: are you up for a boston lisp meeting on the 8th?
2014-12-19T23:04:40Z nyef: Very probably.
2014-12-19T23:04:48Z nyef: Not as presenter, though. (-:
2014-12-19T23:04:56Z Xach: i'm thinking just a gathering around grub
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2014-12-19T23:08:21Z nyef: The boot loader? (-:
2014-12-19T23:08:46Z Xach: mmmmaybe
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2014-12-19T23:11:21Z Quadrescence: you know better to avoid that and prefer the FEP
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2014-12-19T23:26:44Z nyef: Quadrescence: The FEP is a disgusting Symbolicsism. You know full well that I'm a TI Explorer man at heart. d-:
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2014-12-19T23:32:23Z Quadrescence: nyef, :)))
2014-12-19T23:32:33Z Quadrescence: nyef, maybe you can help me get software on this microexplorer
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2014-12-19T23:47:02Z nyef: Quadrescence: At one point I had the source code to the MacOS side of the mX system, and I'm fairly sure I have a load band for an mX somewhere...
2014-12-19T23:47:15Z nyef: Quadrescence: Did I ever end up sharing those with you?
2014-12-19T23:47:20Z Quadrescence: I don't think so
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2014-12-19T23:56:13Z nyef: Found it! 484 megs or so.
2014-12-19T23:56:49Z nyef: Quadrescence: Is a DCC file transfer likely to work, or do we need to come up with some other way of getting this tar file to you?
2014-12-19T23:57:48Z Quadrescence: DCC has never worked for me once
2014-12-19T23:58:14Z nyef: Fair enough. It doesn't actually work through a firewall or NAT, which could explain it.
2014-12-19T23:58:52Z Quadrescence: do you have any hosting somewhere?
2014-12-19T23:59:00Z nyef: Not currently.
2014-12-19T23:59:07Z Quadrescence: dropbox is a canonical awful proprietary example
2014-12-19T23:59:12Z nyef: It's been on my list to address at some point for about a year.
2014-12-19T23:59:45Z attila_lendvai1 quit (Quit: Leaving.)