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2014-12-11T00:53:04Z pjb: -
2014-12-11T00:53:17Z jasom: okay, my idea for implementing an incremental GC was done at DEC in the late 80s, that makes me think that it's not too insane.
2014-12-11T00:54:20Z jasom: also, it would have taken me a lot longer (if I even managed it) to figure this fact out before google existed
2014-12-11T00:55:15Z jasom: they also managed to do it as a "mostly copying" collector, which was the piece I was missing for not having to change sbcl too much on x86oids
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2014-12-11T00:56:01Z pjb: But nowadays, you want to take into account multicores, therefore you want to update the GC algorithms to work in parallel with themselves or with the allocator.
2014-12-11T00:56:32Z jasom: though it does mean keeping some per-page metadata; with only a from-space and to-space I could use solely the address to determine which space it is in
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2014-12-11T00:56:46Z jasom: pjb: I don't use threads, so it doesn't matter for me :)
2014-12-11T00:57:21Z jasom: anyway, I have to run
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2014-12-11T01:11:15Z jasom: also the paper specifically mentions that it's limited to uniprocessor systems, but mentions how it could theoretically be extended to multiprocessor systems.
2014-12-11T01:12:26Z jasom: Finally much of the changes needed to get a working incremental gc are potentially useful for a concurrent gc as well.
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2014-12-11T01:42:46Z emaczen: Is it possible to do a case statement on a pair of values?
2014-12-11T01:46:04Z pillton: emaczen: Have a look at ALEXANDRIA:SWITCH.
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2014-12-11T02:03:26Z White_Flame: jasom: Even if you don't use threads, the system backend and FFI really brings threading concerns to implementations
2014-12-11T02:03:44Z White_Flame: (unless you're talking about a much more raw implementation, I forget whose project is whose :) )
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2014-12-11T03:09:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-12-11T03:09:29Z Bike: evening beach.
2014-12-11T03:09:41Z zRecursive: noon
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2014-12-11T03:18:36Z ahungry: hi
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2014-12-11T03:41:24Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2014-12-11T03:44:41Z beach: Hmm, I can't decide what to work on today.
2014-12-11T03:45:31Z beach: I am on the roll with SICL LOOP, but on the other hand, I should work on HIR->MIR translation so that drmeister can make progress with his compiler.
2014-12-11T03:46:43Z drmeister: beach: I know what's it's like to be on a roll.
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2014-12-11T03:47:20Z beach: Yeah, it is a pity to stop in the middle of something.
2014-12-11T03:47:35Z |3b| knows what it is like to be on a roll on the wrong thing :/
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2014-12-11T03:48:21Z Bike: is sicl loop extensible in a way nobody uses, like xerox
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2014-12-11T03:48:39Z |3b|: oh well, at least the most recent bit of 'wrong thing' motivated some improvements to stuff that is a bit closer to things i should be working on
2014-12-11T03:48:53Z beach: Bike: It is meant to be, but I am not sure anybody will use that feature.
2014-12-11T03:49:29Z beach: |3b|: Care to tell us what those "thing"s are?
2014-12-11T03:50:13Z beach: Bike: I use combinatory parsing for the clauses, and combinatory parsing is inherently modular.  It is therefore easy to "plug in" another parser.
2014-12-11T03:50:14Z |3b| is optimizing FFTs for no good reason, which motivated me to make my glsl compiler smart enough that (mod x y) can compile to (x%y) if x is integral, or mod(x,y) if it is floating point
2014-12-11T03:50:52Z beach: Bike: And I use CLOS to represent clauses, and there are generic functions for generating the bindings, preamble, body, etc.
2014-12-11T03:51:16Z beach: |3b|: I like optimizing FFTs.
2014-12-11T03:51:36Z |3b|: yeah, it has lots of fun puzzles involved :)
2014-12-11T03:52:25Z Bike: i wonder if something like shiver's loop thing could be remotely applicable
2014-12-11T03:52:48Z beach: Bike: Do you have a link?
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2014-12-11T03:53:09Z |3b| is currently trying to reduce the number of sets of global memory accesses from 3 (1 per dimension) to 2 (1.5 dimensions per access) for the specific size i am using, which shouldn't be too hard
2014-12-11T03:53:29Z beach: Although I am on a roll with LOOP, when I picked up the work on it again after months, it took me only a few hours to get up to speed again, so the "swapping" overhead is not too bad.
2014-12-11T03:53:33Z Bike: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/shivers/papers/loop.pdf
2014-12-11T03:53:35Z |3b|: only problem is that to avoid inefficient use of the local memory on my GPU, i needed % operator working
2014-12-11T03:54:00Z beach: Bike: Thanks!
2014-12-11T03:54:54Z |3b|: doesn't seem to be helping as much as i'd hoped though :(
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2014-12-11T03:55:59Z beach: Bike: Interesting paper, though perhaps not directly relevant to what I am currently doing.
2014-12-11T03:56:48Z beach: I wonder whether SICL LOOP is the only one that uses CLOS for extensions.
2014-12-11T03:56:54Z beach: I haven't looked at the others.
2014-12-11T03:57:17Z Bike: xerox uses defstruct since it's ancient, and xerox is sbcl and i think ccl.
2014-12-11T03:57:51Z |3b| thought it was MIT loop?
2014-12-11T03:58:38Z Bike: hm, looks like it, i could have sworn it was a parc thing
2014-12-11T03:58:45Z beach: Yes, I see.  I knew that LOOP is old and I also knew that most implementations use old versions of LOOP, but I wasn't sure whether some implementations have made improvements to it.
2014-12-11T03:59:16Z |3b|: thinking of the CLOS implementation "portable common loops"? that looks like xerox
2014-12-11T03:59:41Z Bike: might be
2014-12-11T04:00:01Z Bike: beach: sbcl's been extended to work with the sequences extension, at least
2014-12-11T04:00:33Z beach: Oh, what is the "sequences extension"?
2014-12-11T04:00:39Z |3b|: yeah, there seem to have been lots of changes to SBCL's LOOP
2014-12-11T04:00:55Z |3b|: you can define your own subtypes of SEQUENCE in sbcl
2014-12-11T04:01:00Z Bike: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1622138
2014-12-11T04:01:01Z |3b|: (or subclass or whatever it is)
2014-12-11T04:01:10Z Bike: SBCL has it and abcl uses it for some java whateverness
2014-12-11T04:01:12Z beach: Right I knew about that.
2014-12-11T04:01:44Z beach: So are there new clauses defined for LOOP?
2014-12-11T04:02:01Z beach: ... for that extension?
2014-12-11T04:02:33Z Bike: yeah, "element" and "elements"
2014-12-11T04:02:44Z beach: OK.  I'll have a look at that.
2014-12-11T04:02:55Z beach: It will be interesting to see how they did it.
2014-12-11T04:03:03Z Bike: figure 6 in the paper has source
2014-12-11T04:03:16Z Bike: it's, well, it's no clos.
2014-12-11T04:03:31Z beach: Sure.
2014-12-11T04:05:32Z beach: Bike: It looks like once I finish SICL LOOP I should write a paper on how to extend it, and then use Figure 6 as "previous work".
2014-12-11T04:05:40Z Bike: heh.
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2014-12-11T04:06:15Z beach: I thought I had read that paper, but I must have forgotten about the LOOP extension discussed in it.
2014-12-11T04:06:24Z |3b|: looks like my attempt at using local memory more efficiently was completely pointless and i should have just done it the simple way in the first place :p
2014-12-11T04:06:46Z Bike: hooray, programming!
2014-12-11T04:07:05Z drmeister: Is there an emacs command to jump the point to a specific offset from the start of the file?
2014-12-11T04:07:31Z |3b|: M-g M-g is goto line if that is what you want
2014-12-11T04:08:16Z beach: drmeister: You can always go to the beginning and then forward-char.
2014-12-11T04:08:19Z |3b|: or M-123 C-f to go forwards 123 characters
2014-12-11T04:08:28Z Bike: "M-g c Read a number n and move point to buffer position n. Position 1 is the beginning of the buffer. "
2014-12-11T04:08:36Z Bike: (apparently)
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2014-12-11T04:08:57Z |3b|: oh yeah, should have thought to check other M-g things since they made it a prefix :p
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2014-12-11T04:14:10Z beach: Bike: Thanks for (indirectly) reminding me that the LOOP implementation can be the subject of a paper.
2014-12-11T04:14:26Z drmeister: beach: Thanks - I also asked in #emacs and was given "goto-char"
2014-12-11T04:16:17Z Bike: no problem, i guess
2014-12-11T04:16:48Z drmeister: Thanks M-g c works.   I'm testing my source code info.  I added filePos as well as lineno/column
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2014-12-11T04:19:25Z |3b|: looks like i might be able to get down to ~23ms from ~30 if it works at least, though still probably need to break it up to keep processing per frame down
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2014-12-11T04:56:06Z beach: Now, the question is: should I turn the combinatory parsing framework into a separate paper, or should it be part of the LOOP paper?
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2014-12-11T04:57:19Z beach: I guess I would have to improve the combinatory parsing framework so that it can works with streams of tokens rather than just list of tokens as is now the case.  That should not be too hard though.
2014-12-11T04:57:31Z beach: s/s//
2014-12-11T04:58:15Z beach: To early in the morning.  Typing skills are substandard.
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2014-12-11T05:46:49Z drmeister: Does anyone know what this emacs/slime error is?  Error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 3
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2014-12-11T05:57:22Z drewc: drmeister: I have experienced that when trying to print something via a slime evalualtion (in org mode)... it was something trying to print what was outputted but two things were outputted rather than the usual one and it was APPLY
2014-12-11T05:57:52Z drewc: 'ing the result list to print it, or something
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2014-12-11T05:59:17Z drewc: that was a while ago, so I cannot say anything helpful about it anymore it seems :|
2014-12-11T05:59:22Z drmeister: Do you have any way to debug it?
2014-12-11T05:59:56Z drmeister: Thanks
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2014-12-11T06:03:06Z drewc: just tried it and it seems to be fixed... so it works, which is not what we wanted. But, the *slime-events* buffer was where I was looking/would look.
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2014-12-11T06:11:34Z drmeister: I figured it out. I hacked my list printer to print the address of each cons after the closing parenthesis as in (xx yy)@3544346. For low level debugging. It was confusing slime
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2014-12-11T08:08:25Z shka: good morning gentelmans
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2014-12-11T08:19:28Z H4ns: you may consider that not everyone is a gentleman in this channel and adjust your greeting accordingly.
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2014-12-11T08:25:29Z shka: H4ns: vaild point
2014-12-11T08:25:43Z shka: so: good morning fellow lispers :-)
2014-12-11T08:26:14Z H4ns: good morning!
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2014-12-11T08:35:20Z loke: hello
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2014-12-11T08:41:50Z schjetne: ferada: https://github.clom/gschjetne/eclastic
2014-12-11T08:42:09Z schjetne: I'm still experimenting, so nothing has been decided yet
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2014-12-11T08:58:12Z jdz: nice name
2014-12-11T08:58:40Z loke: .clom
2014-12-11T08:59:06Z loke: esastic search?
2014-12-11T08:59:08Z loke: What is that?
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2014-12-11T08:59:57Z loke: Is it related to Solr in any way?
2014-12-11T09:00:00Z loke: I did this: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-solr
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2014-12-11T09:15:10Z schjetne: loke: Solr and Elasticsearch both use Apache Lucene
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2014-12-11T10:56:00Z yenda: is anyone using Movitz ?
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2014-12-11T11:18:17Z adlai: drmeister: how about puttng the address in a #|comment|# ?
2014-12-11T11:18:31Z adlai: although depending on the part of slime getting confused, that might not help
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2014-12-11T13:31:28Z ferada: schjetne: nice; the system and package name should be the same though, why not eclastic for the package as well?
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2014-12-11T13:32:36Z schjetne: ferada: yeah, I'll change that, it occured to me that it would be a bit confusing.
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2014-12-11T13:36:32Z schjetne: ferada: for the time being it will grow in features as I need them, but I plan to set up a to do list for the various DSLs
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2014-12-11T13:44:01Z ferada: schjetne: cool, just tested the connection, worked on first try
2014-12-11T13:44:34Z ferada: schjetne: the with-object-element* in encode-slots for <bool> need a (query this) argument as well though
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2014-12-11T13:45:07Z ferada: i'll switch to query if i have anything more
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2014-12-11T13:52:00Z schjetne: ferada: I noticed that when I recompiled after changing names. I'll push that shortly
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2014-12-11T14:10:35Z H4ns: did the behavior of fill-paragraph in slime change somehow?  it seems not to work for me anymore
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2014-12-11T14:14:39Z stassats: fill-paragraph is not a part of slime
2014-12-11T14:14:57Z H4ns: ok
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2014-12-11T14:15:19Z stassats: did you update to emacs 24.4 or something?
2014-12-11T14:15:28Z H4ns: 24.3.1
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2014-12-11T14:16:22Z stassats: ah, you did start using paredit, didn't you? it binds M-q for its own purposes
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2014-12-11T14:16:56Z dim: M-q runs the command paredit-reindent-defun
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2014-12-11T14:17:09Z H4ns: stassats: i don´t have paredit in that buffer, and M-q tries to run fill-paragraph here
2014-12-11T14:17:25Z H4ns: thanks anyway, i'll try to update emacs
2014-12-11T14:17:37Z stassats: that wasn't my suggestion
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2014-12-11T14:17:54Z stassats: 24.4 just broke a lot of things for me
2014-12-11T14:17:55Z H4ns: i did not blame you.  but do you have a suggestion?
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2014-12-11T14:40:46Z pjb: yenda: Oh, I see a hacker over there who's booted Movitz.  He's typing (+ 1 2)!  It works!  He's typing (defun … no, wait, wait,  aw!  He shat it down and he's reverting to his javascript job. :-(
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2014-12-11T14:44:48Z Xach: loke: my latest blog post is inspired in part by you!
2014-12-11T14:45:42Z pjb: Blog inspiration!
2014-12-11T14:51:16Z yenda: I have been reading things on lisp for a day now and I think my head is close to explosion
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2014-12-11T14:51:47Z Xach: yenda: a cheap styrofoam cooler filled with ice or simply cold water can help
2014-12-11T14:51:53Z Shinmera: Less reading, more coding.
2014-12-11T14:52:33Z Shinmera: Writing stuff tends to empty my mind
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2014-12-11T14:53:13Z Xach: It helps cure me of the notion of "Yeah, I understood everything I just read"
2014-12-11T14:53:21Z Shinmera: That  too
2014-12-11T14:53:45Z yenda: I have no idea what to code in lisp :D
2014-12-11T14:54:08Z Shinmera: Whatever your imagination brings you. ~☆
2014-12-11T14:55:05Z yenda: but it is far more interesting to do so than doing the oracle db labwork I am suppose to do
2014-12-11T14:55:37Z Xach: Maybe you can write a lisp program to do your oracle lab work.
2014-12-11T14:55:54Z yenda: that's what I said to the other students
2014-12-11T14:56:20Z yenda: that I was feeling that lisp was powerfull enough to do it for me so why bother
2014-12-11T14:56:48Z Xach: Well, you have to actually do it, too.
2014-12-11T14:57:13Z pjb: yenda: start with a hangman game.
2014-12-11T14:57:27Z pjb: then write a hangman player.
2014-12-11T14:58:55Z yenda: pjb: good idea, I will check a little syntax and start it
2014-12-11T14:59:05Z Shinmera: Or go through PCL if you haven't yet.
2014-12-11T14:59:32Z dim: do your next code in CL, whatever that is
2014-12-11T14:59:43Z pjb: yenda: Read the word list from /usr/share/dict/words so you get to do file I/O ;-)
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2014-12-11T15:02:29Z yenda: pjb: I only have cracklib there, don't even know where it's coming from
2014-12-11T15:02:29Z yenda: but it'll do the trick it has words
2014-12-11T15:02:48Z pjb: But it also has non-legit words, for passwords.
2014-12-11T15:03:55Z pjb: It comes from dictionaries-common on debian.
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2014-12-11T15:55:19Z yenda: what do you guys use to program in lisp ?
2014-12-11T15:55:43Z Xach: yenda: I use emacs and slime
2014-12-11T15:56:00Z Xach: I use sbcl as the implementation most of the time. Works great on Linux and good enough for me on OS X.
2014-12-11T15:56:05Z dim: same things I would have done with another tool before I dove into cl
2014-12-11T15:56:06Z Xach: I also use Clozure CL
2014-12-11T15:56:37Z dim: currently, pgloader (loading data into PostgreSQL + fully unattended data migration from SQLite, MySQL, MSSQL and more)
2014-12-11T15:56:48Z dim: oh read the wrong way
2014-12-11T15:56:58Z dim: I read the question as about what do we program in licp
2014-12-11T15:57:05Z dim: break time, I guess
2014-12-11T15:57:18Z dim: this week is programming in C anyway :(
2014-12-11T15:57:29Z yenda: dim: that was still intersting anyway :)
2014-12-11T15:57:39Z dim: thanks ;-)
2014-12-11T15:57:50Z dim: so I use SBCL and SLIME mostly
2014-12-11T15:58:03Z yenda: Xach: I read about slime, i actually installed the plugin for vim and realized I needed to install emacs to use it
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2014-12-11T15:59:08Z yenda: an other dilemn :D
2014-12-11T16:00:06Z Xach: People use vim, and other editors too
2014-12-11T16:00:30Z Xach: I think emacs is the easiest, if you can get used to emacs.
2014-12-11T16:00:36Z Xach: But I don't think it's mandatory.
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2014-12-11T16:03:24Z splittist: yenda: there are ways to slimerize vim, and ways to vi-erize emacs. But as Xach says, while emacs was grown with lisp in mind, there are many excellent lisp programmers who have used other tools.
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2014-12-11T16:03:48Z fortitude: Xach: I'm having some issues with a system that triggers sbcl's defconstant thing in buildapp
2014-12-11T16:03:51Z splittist: yenda: even a vanilla vi and cutting-and-pasting to and from a terminal can be productive for some.
2014-12-11T16:04:11Z fortitude: Xach: is there a recommended way to invoke a continue restart when loading systems?
2014-12-11T16:04:59Z Xach: fortitude: i think there's a recipe in the manual
2014-12-11T16:05:50Z Xach checks
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2014-12-11T16:08:53Z fortitude: Xach: I didn't see anything, but I hacked up an eval statement to do the load with asdf:oos and a handler
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2014-12-11T16:13:26Z yenda: splittist: I'm gonna give a try to a vimerized emacs :D can't give up the hjkl keys now
2014-12-11T16:13:37Z yenda: my entire system configuration is based on it :D
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2014-12-11T16:15:17Z shka: good evening fellow lispers
2014-12-11T16:16:38Z Xach: fortitude: it's not spelled out explicitly, but it does tell you the condition to handle. i guess that's not as simple.
2014-12-11T16:17:07Z fortitude: Xach: sorry, that was probably just poor reading comprehension
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2014-12-11T16:17:26Z fortitude: Xach: I may have found an issue trying to load sxql, though
2014-12-11T16:17:51Z fortitude: buildapp generates an error about an invalid call to iterate, but the system quickloads just fine
2014-12-11T16:19:33Z Xach: fortitude: does it quickload with :verbose t?
2014-12-11T16:19:55Z Xach: fortitude: can you paste the error? i'm intrigued
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2014-12-11T16:21:41Z PuercoPop: yenda: A friend uses this configuration to vimerized emacs https://github.com/syl20bnr/spacemacs
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2014-12-11T16:22:44Z fortitude: Xach: it does quickload with :verbose t, and the error is http://paste.lisp.org/display/144657
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2014-12-11T16:26:23Z yenda: thanks PuercoPop, I'm going to give it a try later
2014-12-11T16:26:27Z Xach: fortitude: hmmmmm
2014-12-11T16:26:58Z shka: does metamodular has rss?
2014-12-11T16:27:08Z shka: wrong grammar
2014-12-11T16:27:25Z fortitude: Xach: I've tried clearing the cache, and I'm attempting to build buildapp from source instead of quicklisp, just in case that helps
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2014-12-11T16:30:43Z fortitude: Xach: building from source didn't help
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2014-12-11T16:31:29Z Xach: fortitude: what is your buildapp command-line? are you getting libraries of distinct vintages?
2014-12-11T16:32:16Z fortitude: just something like "buildapp --asdf-tree ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software --load-system sxql --entry (defun main ...) --output foo.exe
2014-12-11T16:32:33Z fortitude: the entry function is trivial, for testing purposes
2014-12-11T16:33:19Z Xach: fortitude: hmm!! i think you may want to try making a manifest file
2014-12-11T16:33:58Z Xach: fortitude: that is, fire up ql and (ql:write-asdf-manifest-file "manifest.txt") and buildapp --manifest-file manifest.txt
2014-12-11T16:34:09Z fortitude: Xach: I'll give that a try
2014-12-11T16:34:24Z Xach: fortitude: i think you are getting an old iterate
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2014-12-11T16:36:05Z fortitude: Xach: I definitely am, because the error says it's version 20130128, which is the oldest one I have
2014-12-11T16:36:21Z Xach: and a new everything-else
2014-12-11T16:36:39Z fortitude: Xach: yep, it load ok with the manifest
2014-12-11T16:36:42Z Xach: you might also have better results with (ql-dist:clean (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp")), which deletes all the old directories.
2014-12-11T16:36:56Z fortitude: Xach: although if you supply --manifest-file late in the args list, it won't use it
2014-12-11T16:37:01Z fortitude: which is a little surprising
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2014-12-11T16:37:58Z Xach: fortitude: priority is determined by command-line order
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2014-12-11T16:38:20Z Xach: fortitude: so if you have asdf-tree, that tree takes precedence over what's found in the manifest
2014-12-11T16:38:27Z Xach: ...if the manifest comes later
2014-12-11T16:38:36Z fortitude: Xach: I hadn't considered precedence
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2014-12-11T17:47:04Z goldenlight: wow, did gigamonkeys go down with pyritb^y ?
2014-12-11T17:47:31Z goldenlight: take to the hills boys
2014-12-11T17:48:34Z goldenlight: oh... it came up, looks different now
2014-12-11T17:49:00Z goldenlight: but.... it might be compromised..
2014-12-11T17:50:03Z stassats: compromised?
2014-12-11T17:50:54Z drewc: look different to what/when?
2014-12-11T17:51:39Z shka: what?
2014-12-11T17:51:41Z shka: pink?
2014-12-11T17:52:55Z goldenlight: yes pink, i have no recall really if it ever looked different
2014-12-11T17:53:26Z goldenlight: but.. that lack of knowledge might be significant
2014-12-11T17:53:34Z drewc: it has been pink for roughly 10 years
2014-12-11T17:54:01Z goldenlight: my bookmarks must have not included the ome page
2014-12-11T17:54:04Z stassats: gigamonkey must be a communist sympathizer
2014-12-11T17:54:07Z goldenlight: home page
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2014-12-11T18:00:19Z goldenlight: milosn: hi
2014-12-11T18:00:27Z goldenlight: glad you are here
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2014-12-11T18:01:14Z goldenlight: i'm just being talkative, waiting for lunch to arrive
2014-12-11T18:02:08Z pjb: goldenlight: talkative shall go to #lispcafe, which is made for that.
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2014-12-11T18:02:35Z goldenlight: rock on !!! tnx !
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2014-12-11T20:20:41Z drmeister: stassats: Slime seems to need the lambda list of functions on the backtrace.  Do I read this correctly?
2014-12-11T20:21:45Z drmeister: I mean, I know I can fail to implement features but for the best debugging experience I should provide the lambda list for every compiled function?
2014-12-11T20:22:03Z stassats: it doesn't need a lambda list for the backtrace
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2014-12-11T20:22:59Z rhllor: does anyone know of a library for generating images like the Perl Imager Module?
2014-12-11T20:24:11Z drmeister: Right but it needs the lambda list for something.  (DEFINTERFACE arglist (name) ?  I'll have to do some work to support that.
2014-12-11T20:24:18Z drmeister: What's it used for?
2014-12-11T20:24:33Z stassats: for displaying the arglists, duh
2014-12-11T20:26:16Z drmeister: Just for display?  Oh - I thought it might be used for something magical.
2014-12-11T20:26:44Z drmeister is disappoint
2014-12-11T20:27:01Z Shinmera: I have a couple of projects that base a lot of convenience around being able to automatically determine the lambda-list of a function. So it is definitely something that I'd want to see available in a CL implementation.
2014-12-11T20:28:11Z Xach: rhllor: what does that module do?
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2014-12-11T20:29:37Z Shinmera would welcome being able to add a clasp section to https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-arguments
2014-12-11T20:29:58Z stassats: trivial arguments, that happens in #lisp a lot
2014-12-11T20:30:16Z Shinmera: heh
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2014-12-11T20:47:34Z rhllor: Xach: sorry, I was doing something. But basically, it's used to create images. You define a size and what and you can draw polygons and stuff and save in a lot of different image formats
2014-12-11T20:48:34Z Xach: rhllor: there's nothing that general, as far as i know.
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2014-12-11T20:48:43Z Grue`: vecto?
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2014-12-11T20:50:41Z rhllor: okay then
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2014-12-11T21:18:19Z rhllor: Shinmera: you have an image drawing program, right?
2014-12-11T21:18:30Z Shinmera: Define "have"
2014-12-11T21:18:44Z rhllor: I mean you made one
2014-12-11T21:18:54Z Shinmera: It's not done yet
2014-12-11T21:19:01Z Shinmera: But it is in progress, yes
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2014-12-11T21:19:56Z rhllor: is it able to save files in formats like bmp or png or something
2014-12-11T21:20:14Z Shinmera: Not yet, no
2014-12-11T21:20:20Z Shinmera: The old version did
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2014-12-11T21:21:23Z rhllor: because I was wondering how do you convert something into png or whatever format. Did you use a library or something you write yourself?
2014-12-11T21:21:55Z rhllor: I basically just want to know how you make images
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2014-12-11T21:22:22Z Shinmera: Qt handles png, jpg and bmp for me. Other than those I only intend to support ORA, which uses pngs.
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2014-12-11T21:22:58Z Grue`: rhllor: have you tried http://www.xach.com/lisp/vecto/
2014-12-11T21:23:08Z rhllor: oh okay
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2014-12-11T21:23:47Z Shinmera: Ofc people might add support for other stuff by handling it themselves, but I won't bother.
2014-12-11T21:24:15Z Shinmera: Blast, the getaddrinfo error showed up again already
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2014-12-11T21:51:53Z jasom: Did fare rewrite history in fare-mop fare-quasiquote and fare-utils?
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2014-12-11T22:16:53Z theseb: is there any import to critic's notion that macros are hard to define?....if someone developed a DSL with massive macros....is there any more danger of getting drowning in a black hole of complexity compared to say Java and OOP?
2014-12-11T22:17:14Z theseb: sorry...i mean...any relavance to notion macros are hard to DEBUG
2014-12-11T22:17:16Z theseb: DeBUG
2014-12-11T22:17:18Z theseb: debug
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2014-12-11T22:17:37Z theseb: ?
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2014-12-11T22:19:42Z |3b|: theseb: any feature can be misused, and powerful features can amplify misuse as much as they amplify good use
2014-12-11T22:19:45Z jasom: theseb: macros are harder to debug than not macros
2014-12-11T22:20:27Z theseb: |3b|: so basically lisp is more powerful/better but programmer must be more powerful/better to use it...makes sense
2014-12-11T22:20:33Z jasom: theseb: not a *lot* harder, but harder.  Don't use them if the abstraction gain isn't worth it.  Really simple macros are fairly safe just because the bugs will be obvious
2014-12-11T22:20:51Z theseb: or as they say..."With much power comes much responsibility"
2014-12-11T22:21:01Z |3b|: i wouldn't say the programmers need to be more powerful/better, just that they need to know when not to do things
2014-12-11T22:21:06Z dim: I find CL macros much easier to understand and use than C macros
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2014-12-11T22:21:16Z dim: but I'm only a one-comma programmer after all
2014-12-11T22:21:30Z dim: (ref. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreeStarProgrammer
2014-12-11T22:21:35Z Grue`: i dunno, macros are easier to debug if anything, because all possible inputs are known at read time
2014-12-11T22:21:38Z dim: (and a missing paren))
2014-12-11T22:21:50Z Grue`: (unless somebody else uses your macros)
2014-12-11T22:21:53Z jasom: Grue`: once you know the bug is in the macro
2014-12-11T22:22:08Z theseb: |3b|: every since Paul Graham's writings...i'm dreaming of writing an insane app with massive levels of macros and feeling the power
2014-12-11T22:22:32Z jasom: Abnormal behavior that is due to a buggy macro is slightly harder to track down, but becomes fairly easy once you localize it to the macro
2014-12-11T22:22:51Z dim: IME the more you try to use macro the more you fail at writing code that is easy to maintain
2014-12-11T22:23:12Z Petit_Dejeuner__: theseb, and then retire and write video games for the rest of your life? get in line
2014-12-11T22:23:31Z jasom: IMO you should never *try* to use a macro in production code; you should realize that you can't do it cleanly without a macro and then use it.
2014-12-11T22:23:32Z theseb: jasom: oh..and speaking of macro debugging....i love the defmacro/gensym way....but all the hygience fans got me paranoid that a subtle bug will sneak in without scheme's insane macro system
2014-12-11T22:23:37Z |3b| wants to use the insane power to write video games to start with :p
2014-12-11T22:24:08Z theseb: Petit_Dejeuner__: lol
2014-12-11T22:24:11Z jasom: theseb: the hygiene fans are wrong.  Don't rely on the definitions of exported symbols from your package and you will be safe
2014-12-11T22:24:12Z |3b|: packages + multiple namespaces + rules forbidding redefining CL symbols make hygiene less of a problem in CL
2014-12-11T22:24:12Z Grue`: (powerful-macro :video-game-1) => done
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2014-12-11T22:24:35Z jasom: theseb: scheme doesn't do symbols the same way as common lisp which makes the hygienic macros more necessary there
2014-12-11T22:25:31Z jasom: the part of macro hygiene that is solved by gensym is the uninteresting part of macro hygiene
2014-12-11T22:25:51Z jasom: (uninteresting as just having gensym is enough to make it soluble)
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2014-12-11T22:27:00Z Petit_Dejeuner__: Grue`, Now you just have to write the macro.
2014-12-11T22:27:24Z theseb: jasom: yea...iirc the gensym way is fine for a newb like me as long as you don't try to do something hardcore like redefine car, defmacro, etc.
2014-12-11T22:27:38Z theseb: basically...make up new vars instead of changing old ones
2014-12-11T22:28:10Z |3b|: theseb: you aren't allowed to redefine anything in the CL package
2014-12-11T22:28:18Z jasom: theseb: the real issue is if you export a function named "foo" and a package which uses your package does (flet ((foo ...)) (macro-that-calls-foo ))
2014-12-11T22:29:03Z |3b|: more reason to not :use things :)
2014-12-11T22:29:04Z jasom: not exporting really simple function names helps a lot there; if you don't rely on any exported functions at all, then you're completely safe from that issue.
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2014-12-11T22:29:16Z drewc uses (funcall 'foo) for that reason! 
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2014-12-11T22:29:36Z theseb: jasom: your foo example would fall under my banned list because in my world i wouldn't let myself modify foo
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2014-12-11T22:30:00Z theseb: jasom: i.e. it all boils down to stop messing with existing vars
2014-12-11T22:30:12Z |3b|: theseb: if you blindly :use packages, you might not know it is exported (particularly if the export list changes in new version)
2014-12-11T22:30:55Z theseb: |3b|: does CL have a switch to not let you modify exported vars automagically?
2014-12-11T22:31:12Z jasom: theseb: how do you know that foo exists?
2014-12-11T22:31:26Z jasom: theseb: redefining a defun will warn, but not using flet
2014-12-11T22:31:29Z |3b|: no, but i think sbcl does and possibly other implementations might
2014-12-11T22:31:33Z theseb: jasom: let CL figure it out....the REPL can prevent user from doing something dumb
2014-12-11T22:32:18Z theseb: jasom: somewhere in the bowels there can be a command that does "if user tries to modify exported var...print a warning"
2014-12-11T22:32:25Z |3b|: and this is about functions, assigning/rebinding exported variables is normal operation, since they are usually global/special vars
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2014-12-11T22:32:50Z jasom: theseb: flet doesn't modify it; it just lexically binds it
2014-12-11T22:32:51Z drewc: theseb: symbols are not "vars", and FLET does not modify the symbol in any way.
2014-12-11T22:33:01Z |3b|: http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Package-Locks.html
2014-12-11T22:33:06Z theseb: sorry..i'm not so good with proper use of the lingo
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2014-12-11T22:35:39Z drewc: theseb: If you do not learn what things are, then you will have issues when trying to understand them. The table of contents is a good place to learn what the names refer to : http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm
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2014-12-11T22:37:52Z theseb: drewc: i agree...reason i was squeamish about learning lingo for one language is other languages are different...
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2014-12-11T22:38:17Z theseb: drewc: so i can learn diff between symbol vs. variable but then if i do Java...doesn't transfer :/
2014-12-11T22:38:24Z drewc: theseb: Well, ignore "lingo" and just use english
2014-12-11T22:39:15Z drewc: theseb: it might ... a symbol is a datatype. a variable is an abstract concept.
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2014-12-11T22:39:58Z drewc: theseb: imagine a class named symbol
2014-12-11T22:40:05Z theseb: ok
2014-12-11T22:40:15Z drewc: and an instance of that class is a symbol
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2014-12-11T22:40:56Z theseb: drewc: see that is helpful....someone should build bridges between the jargon of different language communities..that would be awesome
2014-12-11T22:41:02Z drewc: does the language we are referring to not have classes? Then it is a struct.
2014-12-11T22:41:11Z theseb: drewc: sort of a "travelers' dictionary" if you will
2014-12-11T22:43:09Z drewc: There is no jargon or lingo involved here, these are basic concepts that ... wait ... there is ... "The Jargon File" .. which became "The Hacker's Dictionary"
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2014-12-11T22:43:25Z drewc: Which became "The New Hacker's Dictionary"
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2014-12-11T22:44:31Z theseb: drewc: oh but there are jargon dialects.....e.g.. In C++ I had member variables and member functions,,,,,In Java I had instance variables and "methods"....then in Python I had just "attributes" !!!!
2014-12-11T22:44:48Z theseb: ahhhhhh!
2014-12-11T22:46:23Z drewc: theseb: If you think that the name given to anything that somehow relates to something else is called "jargon", I may not be able to help you there. Different strokes for different folks after all :P
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2014-12-11T23:10:44Z jasom: drewc: that seems like jargon to me; jargon is "A technical terminology unique to a particular subject"
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2014-12-11T23:12:15Z jasom: theseb: what common lisp refers to as a symbol is fairly peculiar to lisps; what a symbol is in scheme even is different
2014-12-11T23:12:37Z theseb: jasom: ug...even different lisp flavors do it different.....not good
2014-12-11T23:12:38Z drewc: jasom: Yes, but what are the other definitions of jargon?
2014-12-11T23:12:39Z theseb: jasom: thanks
2014-12-11T23:12:47Z theseb: drewc: who cares?
2014-12-11T23:13:37Z jasom: theseb: assume that scheme and common lisp do X differently and you will be right more often than wrong for a randomly chosen X
2014-12-11T23:14:14Z jasom: theseb: they are about as similar as C++ and java; superficially similar to the point that someone who knew neither couldn't tell them apart, but not at all alike if you know either one of them very well
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2014-12-11T23:15:38Z drewc: jasom: the dictionary types... to me, jargon is, unless you are a part of the trade, "unintelligible or meaningless talk or writing; gibberish.". I do not think of C++ programming as a trade, per se.
2014-12-11T23:15:39Z theseb: jasom: wait..besides hygiene...is there anything scheme gets right that we wish CL had?
2014-12-11T23:15:48Z drewc: errrr
2014-12-11T23:15:53Z jasom: theseb: most lispers don't wish that CL had hygiene
2014-12-11T23:15:59Z drewc: theseb: I meant that for you :)
2014-12-11T23:16:03Z theseb: jasom: i don't like hygiene
2014-12-11T23:16:18Z jasom: so hygiene isn't something that scheme gets right that we wish CL had
2014-12-11T23:16:36Z theseb: jasom: SICP MIT profs spent years mediating on perfect ideal lisp...certainly they must have done some improvements to CL no?
2014-12-11T23:16:50Z whartung: lexical closures, but CL took those already
2014-12-11T23:17:20Z jasom: I would like some form of continuations, but shift and reset is probably a better fit than call/cc
2014-12-11T23:17:21Z drewc: theseb: yes, like integrated parts of scheme :)
2014-12-11T23:17:26Z whartung: But, CL isn't perfect nor ideal. It's practical. There's a difference
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2014-12-11T23:18:35Z theseb: drewc: oh i think i see the impedance mismatch....you think jargon = gibberish.....i was thinking jargon = audible DSLs used by various communities :)
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2014-12-11T23:19:04Z theseb: drewc: glad to know CL took the best parts of scheme
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2014-12-11T23:19:30Z theseb: drewc: e.g. eskimos have several words for snow..n' all that
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2014-12-11T23:20:43Z drewc: theseb: I usually think of those as 'slang', though the definitions are not slang ... and I use slush and sleet and powder myself, and I am not Inuit! :)
2014-12-11T23:21:18Z theseb: drewc: are you in USA? i'm wondering if this is a European vs. USA thing
2014-12-11T23:21:27Z theseb: that'd be interesting
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2014-12-11T23:21:54Z drewc: Nope. USA is a daysail south.
2014-12-11T23:22:05Z theseb: drewc: canada!
2014-12-11T23:22:49Z theseb: drewc: well in the states jargon are legitimate words....e.g Hacker's Dictionary is from US iirc....the stuff in there is not gibberish...they have well defined meanings for some withing hacker community
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2014-12-11T23:23:49Z drewc: anadians have a bunch of odd definitions and use of words... so I would apologize for that, only apparently our apologies are not recognized as true a lot of the time, and we pronounce "sorry" oddly... :P
2014-12-11T23:25:29Z drewc: theseb: yeah, my bad
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2014-12-11T23:26:40Z theseb: :)
2014-12-11T23:27:02Z drewc: my definitions of terms (my personal jargon or slang) needs redefinition.
2014-12-11T23:27:41Z theseb: drewc: err...well....wait
2014-12-11T23:28:11Z theseb: drewc: if you upgraded your mental defs then you might be good to go for USA but then you'd be debilitated in Canada! oh no!
2014-12-11T23:28:21Z drewc: Ok, so a symbol is Common Lisp jargon for "symbol n. an object of type symbol"
2014-12-11T23:28:25Z theseb: unless you were sooo slick you could hot swap dictionaries as needed
2014-12-11T23:29:23Z drewc: theseb: well, strangely enough I have worked in the USA for about 10% of the last 7 years, and my clients are often from there ... which is part of the reason /why/ my mind gets all confused.
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2014-12-11T23:52:57Z pjb: theseb: in lisp, macros are mere functions. They're not harder to define or to debug than other functions.
2014-12-11T23:53:39Z pjb: theseb: actually, I would even go so far as to say that macros are easier to define and debug than other functions, if only because they only process sexps, producing sexps.  Other functions  often have to work with more complex data types.
2014-12-11T23:56:52Z theseb: pjb: thanks..that's encouraging....now if i could only find myself on some sexy CL project with massive macros