2014-12-07T00:00:23Z Sikander: When hand-coding ffi's, do you use defcfun, or do you write your lisp code with foreign-funcalls inside?
2014-12-07T00:00:46Z _death: I use defcfun..
2014-12-07T00:00:47Z |3b| uses defcfun, i think it is a tiny bit more portable or something
2014-12-07T00:01:05Z |3b|: well, aside from APIs where i have to call function pointers all the time like opengl
2014-12-07T00:01:10Z Sikander: So defcfun and then wrap the defined functions into defuns and defmethods
2014-12-07T00:01:31Z |3b|: if needed, possibly with some inlining
2014-12-07T00:01:36Z LiamH: So, if you generate those spec files for all those platforms,  can you do it anywhere, or do you have to be on those platforms (i.e., can you cross compile)?
2014-12-07T00:01:49Z |3b|: you can avoid a lot of need to wrap defcfuns if you figure out the cffi type translation stuff though
2014-12-07T00:01:49Z Sikander: I see only corman lisp doesn't support foreign-funcall and foreign-funcall-pointer
2014-12-07T00:02:24Z |3b|: ah, probably not worth worrying about corman lisp at this point :/
2014-12-07T00:02:37Z _death: LiamH: I use sbcl on linux64.. https://github.com/death/cl-glpk/blob/master/glpk-ffi.lisp generated those spec files
2014-12-07T00:02:39Z Sikander: Well, I usually defcfun everything first. Was just wondering what others do
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2014-12-07T00:03:41Z LiamH: _death: OK, so if someone wants you to support foobar  OS it's pretty easy to throw that on the list and just generate it?
2014-12-07T00:03:46Z Sikander: |3b|: exactly, that's why I was considering directly writing lisp code that just foreign-funcalls
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2014-12-07T00:04:19Z |3b| usually starts by trying to convince something to generate most of the defcfuns for me, then goes through and cleans it up
2014-12-07T00:04:43Z _death: LiamH: my guess is it shouldn't be hard to add platforms to autowrap
2014-12-07T00:04:46Z Sikander: A good defmacro...
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2014-12-07T00:06:28Z Sikander: |3b|: Why wouldn't you worry about corman lisp?
2014-12-07T00:07:32Z LiamH: Sikander: Corman is long gone.
2014-12-07T00:07:41Z |3b|: Sikander: i doubt many people use it, and it is win32 only
2014-12-07T00:08:15Z Sikander: Really? Never used it or heard of it before today, but the wikipedia search states that in 2013, they were considering open-sourcing
2014-12-07T00:09:30Z |3b|: yeah, that is probably pretty much the extent of activity on it in the last 5+ years
2014-12-07T00:09:50Z Sikander: Well, I won't bother too much with it then.
2014-12-07T00:10:17Z |3b|: it was a more-or-less commercial product, but now mostly dead so someone suggested they open source it
2014-12-07T00:10:43Z _death: I may try autowrap on another project tomorrow.. say polarssl
2014-12-07T00:11:31Z |3b|: yeah, last release seems to have been sep 14, 2006
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2014-12-07T00:11:37Z Sikander: LiamH: What are you working on nowadays?
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2014-12-07T00:12:57Z LiamH: lisp-wise? Almost nothing. Just patches to cffi-libffi when there's a bug report, and porting Antik to use named-readtables.
2014-12-07T00:13:27Z LiamH: I've actually been using R quite a bit for my job.
2014-12-07T00:14:00Z LiamH: I'm hoping to get back to more CL development next month.
2014-12-07T00:15:11Z Sikander: I've been thinking about giving R a try for data analysis as well. At my job, we only have matlab and (gasp) excel for data analysis.
2014-12-07T00:15:25Z Sikander: I kid you not, people use excel for data analysis
2014-12-07T00:15:38Z LiamH: Oh yes, I know.
2014-12-07T00:16:53Z Sikander: So now I have to convert matlab scripts into VB when I produce some useful tool, so that others can use it... in excel...
2014-12-07T00:17:11Z LiamH: I had a student once who insisted on doing everything in Excel. He refused to learn even Matlab. Apparently coding up confluent hypergeometric functions is a bit hard in Excel, so he dropped the class.
2014-12-07T00:17:51Z Sikander: Exactly, dammit. Excel misses many (even fundamental) mathematical and numerical operations
2014-12-07T00:18:10Z Sikander: And it operates on a spreadsheet, for god's sake...
2014-12-07T00:18:55Z Sikander: In my previous job, when we were generating orbital data, we were told that the data cannot exceed more than 65535 data points... because excel can only read that many lines...
2014-12-07T00:19:10Z LiamH: Sikander: Ha ha!
2014-12-07T00:19:18Z LiamH: Wow
2014-12-07T00:19:40Z Sikander: And this is was for planetary coverage of an instrument orbiting a moon for a mission of at least 3 years...
2014-12-07T00:20:12Z LiamH: I'm scared that it's in my field
2014-12-07T00:20:22Z Sikander: What's your field
2014-12-07T00:20:45Z LiamH: Spaceflight dynamics, navigation & guidance
2014-12-07T00:20:53Z Sikander: Hmmm....
2014-12-07T00:20:59Z Sikander: I think it's all over the place.
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2014-12-07T00:21:49Z Sikander: I've met very few younger physicists that actually know how to program for e.g. more advanced numerical simulations, data processing and analysis or even automatic data acquisition
2014-12-07T00:22:16Z Sikander: They read out their detectors, dump the data in excel, plot a graph and that's it.
2014-12-07T00:22:26Z LiamH: Right, most scientists and engineers do not like and are not good at programming.
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2014-12-07T00:23:12Z Sikander: I'm a physicist and will not say I'm good at programming; I was never properly trained, so probably lack the discipline for large projects, but at least I know how to write code to get my work done
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2014-12-07T00:24:15Z Sikander: Anyway if you're in spaceflight dynamics, I can tell you another anecdote from my previous job
2014-12-07T00:24:59Z LiamH: I'm a physicist too and I was never "properly" trained either.
2014-12-07T00:25:06Z Sikander: So for this mission, we had to calculate the ground coverage of a moon by this instrument on a satellite orbiting that moon.
2014-12-07T00:25:22Z Sikander: The mission took something like 3 years, and the instrument was sensitive to sun light
2014-12-07T00:25:27Z LiamH: ... and you didn't use STk?
2014-12-07T00:25:38Z Sikander: So we could only record during night time
2014-12-07T00:26:09Z Sikander: ESA did, but hired us to redo the calculation in another way
2014-12-07T00:26:38Z LiamH: good idea
2014-12-07T00:26:39Z Sikander: Wait, let me reformulate: ESA told us they used STk and we had to redo the calculation.
2014-12-07T00:26:45Z Sikander: We were not told the results.
2014-12-07T00:26:57Z Sikander: So off we go with our own package.
2014-12-07T00:27:32Z Sikander: A few days later we have our results, with ESA on the phone that our results are wildy different.
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2014-12-07T00:28:40Z Sikander: So, we scratch our heads; we start compensating for various small gravitational disturbances
2014-12-07T00:29:15Z Sikander: Still, no match; every iteration of our improvements just have smaller and smaller effects
2014-12-07T00:29:47Z Sikander: Finally, the ESA project lead got impatient and just instructed the scientist there to send us their results
2014-12-07T00:29:56Z Sikander: This is in principle not allowed of course...
2014-12-07T00:30:28Z Krystof: yay for physicists untrained in programming
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2014-12-07T00:30:36Z Sikander: Anyway, what did the scientist send us? An excel file that contained a satellite in a circular orbit around a moon in a circular orbit around the planet in a circular orbit around the sun
2014-12-07T00:30:42Z Sikander: not even Kepler orbits!
2014-12-07T00:30:54Z Sikander: We laughed (and cried) for days...
2014-12-07T00:31:03Z LiamH: Ah, yes, that assumption is made quite often, sadly.
2014-12-07T00:31:30Z LiamH: But ESA... I would expect better.
2014-12-07T00:31:35Z Sikander: Come on, the guy was a planetary scientist!
2014-12-07T00:31:50Z LiamH: There are some pretty good astrodynamicists there.
2014-12-07T00:31:50Z Krystof: it isn't rocket science, after all
2014-12-07T00:32:05Z Sikander: I mean, he wasn't some undergrad doing a calculation for a classical mechanics class
2014-12-07T00:32:16Z Sikander: Krystof: Exactly
2014-12-07T00:32:19Z Sikander: :D
2014-12-07T00:32:23Z LiamH: Ah, of course, the planetary physicists never talk to the astordynamicists.
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2014-12-07T00:32:54Z Sikander: To be honest, that guy was definately not representative of ESA scientists
2014-12-07T00:33:06Z nykac: Krystof: thankfully most of my physics profs. were
2014-12-07T00:34:07Z Sikander: LiamH: Anyway, I'm out of that game now, working for another company; are you working for a company or in academia?
2014-12-07T00:34:09Z Krystof: most of mine were radio astronomers
2014-12-07T00:34:29Z LiamH: Sikander: I work for both the government and a university.
2014-12-07T00:34:46Z LiamH: Mostly for the first.
2014-12-07T00:35:01Z LiamH: measured in time or money.
2014-12-07T00:35:15Z Sikander: In the US?
2014-12-07T00:35:18Z LiamH: YEs
2014-12-07T00:36:08Z Sikander: So what did you think of the philae landing that we pulled off?
2014-12-07T00:36:18Z LiamH: Sikander: good job
2014-12-07T00:36:47Z Sikander: I mean we as in us europeans...
2014-12-07T00:37:00Z Sikander: I didn't have anything to do with it
2014-12-07T00:37:07Z LiamH: Sikander: so you are in NL?
2014-12-07T00:37:13Z Sikander: Yes
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2014-12-07T00:37:50Z LiamH: It must be late for you.
2014-12-07T00:38:13Z Sikander: Yeah, I should get to bed at a certain moment.
2014-12-07T00:38:30Z Sikander: I started compiling something on windows, but it's taking ages
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2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: minion: memo for White_Flame: There are few things to respond to here:
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell White_Flame when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: | and I learned most of my OpenGL knowledge from the specs as well, going to tutorials later to clean up some understanding. of course, I did have a background in computer graphics from before that
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: I tried to read the OpenGL spec and concluded the authors are morons and have no business writing code. Feel free to argue otherwise.
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: | In the 2d sense, PyGame is great.  Ogre3d  has a lot of default interactivity droppable into your scene.  But the problem is that these features are bound to programming languages, not just \"available\" to your lisp environment.
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: As previously stated, see the provided case studies. I'm quite confident in asserting that a LoC count will show them both to be obese monstrosities. I'd also like to add that anything less than a CL-style repl, inspector and condition system and isn't worth my time. Haskell claims that it has a "SLIME-like" REPL. This is a lie. You can tell me that african orcs look "just like people", that "enslaving them is wrong
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: "  "they're smart at sports" etc. and it won't matter one whit. They are, and will remain intellectually inferior to Asians & Europeans unless people suddenly decide that they'd like to get into some innovative ethical territory with genetic engineering. See, James Watson's most inconvenient truth: Race realism and the moralistic fallacy for a 150 years of research on the subject. The same goes for programming langu
2014-12-07T00:48:13Z gabriel_laddel: ages. Algol's are inferior to Lisps. Full stop.
2014-12-07T00:48:14Z gabriel_laddel: | if they both "own" the scene graph, and the main loop and have different representations for all their objects then nothing in the code representation helps that. nor if I have 2 frameworks which I wish to use, but they both want to "own" the main processing loop, will s-expressions help these are the more real integration barriers than just having a more productive code structure
2014-12-07T00:48:14Z gabriel_laddel: | Whatever your vision of an "ultimate solution" will be, I can guarantee you it heavily overlaps with AI
2014-12-07T00:48:15Z gabriel_laddel: I'm assuming that you're writing this in response to my statement that "The generalization of this is the ability for all programs in some context to seamlessly interoperate with each other without any loss of expressivity. The studious will note that this is a completely solved problem that no machine learning algorithm will be able to approximate anytime soon." First, allow me to share a quote with you:
2014-12-07T00:48:15Z gabriel_laddel: "The process of constructing instruction tables should be very fascinating. There need be no real danger of it ever becoming a drudge, for any processes that are quite mechanical may be turned over to the machine itself."
2014-12-07T00:48:16Z gabriel_laddel: -- Turing, A. M., 1946, Proposed electronic calculator, report for National Physical Laboratory, Teddington
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2014-12-07T01:05:11Z Petit_Dejeuner_: "I have 2 frameworks which I wish to use, but they both want to "own" the main processing loop" I've always hated that.
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2014-12-07T01:06:42Z |3b|: gabriel_laddel: your 'case studies' aren't very convincing.. you compare "100kloc" of library code to 15 lines of end-user code, completely ignoring all the library code it calls (in this case emacs), and then the example code doesn't even work right
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2014-12-07T01:13:46Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: thanks for pointing that out. updated the example elisp http://paste.lisp.org/display/144616
2014-12-07T01:14:27Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: there is the questioon of where one draws the line though, if we are counting Emacs, do we count the C++ compiler too?
2014-12-07T01:14:38Z gabriel_laddel: I think we all know how that will go.
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2014-12-07T01:15:04Z |3b|: well, if you can't run it separately, yes?
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2014-12-07T01:15:35Z |3b| had the impression you were talking about a part of a C++ compiler, but one which /can/ be run separately
2014-12-07T01:15:55Z gabriel_laddel: wait, now I'm confused.
2014-12-07T01:16:13Z |3b|: but you are calling random buffer operations, so you have to count all of the parts of emacs involved with buffer management
2014-12-07T01:16:33Z |3b|: also the whole implementation of READ
2014-12-07T01:16:42Z gabriel_laddel: If we're discussing all the code necessary to perform that task, I don't really think it necessary to include emacs and the C++ compiler.
2014-12-07T01:16:58Z gabriel_laddel: C++ is a disaster, emacs less so.
2014-12-07T01:17:11Z |3b| isn't arguing about your point, just your argument
2014-12-07T01:17:36Z gabriel_laddel: I'm not going to justify flushing the toilet either, but thank you for your input and forcing me to clarify my argument.
2014-12-07T01:18:00Z |3b|: you described a 100kloc /library/ that could be used for a task, then completely ignored all the library code in the lisp side of the comparison
2014-12-07T01:18:38Z |3b|: it would probably still be a few hundred lines of c++ to use the 100kloc library, and comparing that few hundred lines to the dozens of lisp could would be a fair comparison
2014-12-07T01:18:43Z gabriel_laddel: I then included that code in the paste I sent you: 40loc.
2014-12-07T01:18:58Z |3b|: or comparing all the reader and buffer management code in the lisp side
2014-12-07T01:19:12Z gabriel_laddel: again, I'll not justify flushing toilets or running water.
2014-12-07T01:19:21Z gabriel_laddel: you're either an orc or elf.
2014-12-07T01:19:59Z |3b|: you are either making specious arguments or you aren't, completely independent of whether your conclusion is valid or not
2014-12-07T01:20:15Z |3b| has no idea what the toilets,water,elfs and orc have to do with anything
2014-12-07T01:20:41Z |3b|: and your pasted code still looks broken, not all functions are defined at top-level
2014-12-07T01:21:11Z |3b|: and the "any lisp" part is wrong, since CL allows defining reader macros, so you need to determine if any are used by the file and ensure they are defined before READ will work on them
2014-12-07T01:21:22Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: sorry, top level?
2014-12-07T01:21:25Z pjb: Perhaps I should have send my resume to the ESA a few years ago after all…
2014-12-07T01:21:25Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: this is elisp
2014-12-07T01:22:45Z |3b|: gabriel_laddel: your code doesn't look like a proper code walker, so you are either missing functions that are defined inside other forms (like progn or let), or you are finding things that aren't functions
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2014-12-07T01:23:11Z |3b|: also misses any functions defined by macros
2014-12-07T01:23:26Z pjb: -
2014-12-07T01:23:35Z |3b|: all things which would probably be handled correctly by the '100kloc' c++ library
2014-12-07T01:25:19Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: this is what I mean by orcs and elves. I'm not going to get into tree-shaking C++ in it's entirety to compare to a tree-shaken CL for any given task. I shouldn't have to explain why.
2014-12-07T01:26:18Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: you are absolutely correct that I'm only finding top-level defun forms and not taking into account macroexpansion however.
2014-12-07T01:26:30Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: I will take this into account.
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2014-12-07T01:27:19Z |3b|: if you want to argue with people who don't like CL, you should make sure your arguments are sound or you will just make CL look bad... if you are trying to convince the people who already do like CL, i'm not sure what the point is
2014-12-07T01:28:15Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: Absolutely correct. I shall reflect this over the nap I'm about to take.
2014-12-07T01:28:37Z gabriel_laddel: (and any other messages my way will be responded to when I awake)
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2014-12-07T01:35:38Z White_Flame: gabriel_laddel: You are a fuming and bigoted person, and are applying that to programming languages.  It is not beneficial to yourself or anybody else
2014-12-07T01:35:38Z minion: White_Flame, memo from gabriel_laddel: There are few things to respond to here:
2014-12-07T01:36:11Z White_Flame: and yes, I got the full text of the PM and the display in the channel here
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2014-12-07T01:40:28Z kristof: What on earth
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2014-12-07T02:08:03Z PuercoPop: redline6561: here now
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2014-12-07T02:24:54Z redline6561: PuercoPop: Was wondering if you wanted to take charge and shepherd in that coleslaw patch. I should probably give you collaborator access at this point. :)
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2014-12-07T02:27:51Z redline6561: PuercoPop: Just added you as a collaborator. Thanks for all your help with coleslaw. Merge away. <3
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2014-12-07T02:32:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-12-07T02:35:51Z redline6561: hey beach! how's the SICL hacking treating you? :)
2014-12-07T02:35:58Z goglosh: good evening
2014-12-07T02:36:16Z beach: redline6561: Very well thank you.  Working me a bit too hard perhaps.
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2014-12-07T02:37:29Z PuercoPop: k, I'll merge. Thanks. How do you feel about using normamalize-string when sb-unicode is in *features* though?
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2014-12-07T02:41:25Z beach: redline6561: drmeister has decided to try to use the implementation-independent compiler framework of SICL (that I call "Cleavir") to implement a better compiler for Clasp.
2014-12-07T02:46:18Z redline6561: beach: Really? That's a fun collaboration! I'll be looking forward to hearing more.
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2014-12-07T02:46:40Z redline6561: PuercoPop: I really don't like the idea of only doing normalization on SBCL, and a recent version at that.
2014-12-07T02:46:58Z redline6561: I grant that I'm not sure what our better option would be.
2014-12-07T02:48:34Z PuercoPop: I only know that unicode has enough caveats that I rather not delve into, maybe if we find the corresponding ccl function call if it exists?
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2014-12-07T02:54:29Z redline6561: PuercoPop: Yeah, if we found the equivalent CCL functionality and wrote a wrapper function with reader conditionals I'd be comfortable with that.
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2014-12-07T02:54:48Z redline6561: If this is good enough for folks, I'd be okay with not handling normalization for a while too. ;)
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2014-12-07T03:11:45Z wooden: in python the convention for shadowing builtins is to add an underscore at the end of the variable or function name, e.g. if i want to have a variable "id", i use id_ because id is a builtin.  is there an accepted convention for this in common lisp?  case in point i want a class named "character".
2014-12-07T03:12:04Z beach: wooden: Use your own package.
2014-12-07T03:12:46Z beach: wooden: (defpackage #:my-package (:use #:common-lisp) (:shadow #:character))
2014-12-07T03:13:08Z wooden: these character objects are going to be everywhere, and i'm probably also going to have to deal with the character data type.
2014-12-07T03:13:36Z beach: wooden: Using suffixes for this kind of stuff is really primitive.
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2014-12-07T03:14:07Z beach: wooden: In Common Lisp you always want to use a package other than COMMON-LISP-USER to write your code anyway.
2014-12-07T03:14:14Z wooden: ok, i knew about the "shadow" thing for packages.  was just wondering if there was a "primitive" convention.
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2014-12-07T03:15:36Z wooden: beach: if i shadow character like that, how do i get the real character?  cl-user:character?
2014-12-07T03:15:55Z beach: cl:character
2014-12-07T03:16:17Z wooden: beach: sounds good. thanks!
2014-12-07T03:16:24Z beach: Anytime!
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2014-12-07T03:18:36Z wooden: beach: i don't have the hash marks in my package definition.  what are those for?
2014-12-07T03:19:22Z beach: wooden: #:bla means the uninterned symbol named "BLA".  It is used here as a "string designator" (see the glossary).
2014-12-07T03:20:20Z beach: wooden: It is a way of avoiding the use of capital letters for package names in code.
2014-12-07T03:20:49Z beach: wooden: And for symbol names too, like in the :export list.
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2014-12-07T03:24:13Z wooden: beach: okay. i defined my package (including the shadow of character) without those hash marks and it seems to work just fine. am i losing anything by not having them? (defpackage :mypackage (:use :common-lisp :sb-thread :sb-bsd-sockets :sb-sys) (:shadow :character))
2014-12-07T03:25:35Z beach: wooden: While #:bla is an uninterned symbol, :bla is a symbol in the KEYWORD package.  They both have the same name, so the string they designate is the same.  The former avoids the creation of a symbol in the KEYWORD package.
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2014-12-07T03:26:42Z wooden: beach: okay. i'll read more about this. thanks again!
2014-12-07T03:26:54Z beach: wooden: From a software-engineering point of view, by using #:bla, you are telling the reader that you not really interested in a specific symbol, just a symbol name.
2014-12-07T03:27:14Z beach: Here "reader" is the person reading the code.  Not the Common Lisp reader.
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2014-12-07T05:05:31Z PuercoPop: If I want to override the :init-form for a slot in an subclass, should I just define a slot with the same name and a new init-form or use a initialize-instance :after method to achieve the same effect?
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2014-12-07T05:06:45Z beach: PuercoPop: Does the slot also have an :INITARG?
2014-12-07T05:07:24Z PuercoPop: yes
2014-12-07T05:07:25Z beach: PuercoPop: Then use :DEFAULT-INITARGS in the subclass.
2014-12-07T05:07:31Z PuercoPop: (in the super class)
2014-12-07T05:07:38Z beach: Yeah, sure.
2014-12-07T05:07:42Z PuercoPop: ahh that seems better, thanks
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2014-12-07T05:15:29Z p_nathan: White_Flame: What's that about WWU? I work in that geographical region and know some people who went there.
2014-12-07T05:15:40Z p_nathan: White_Flame: - can you PM me? I'm curious
2014-12-07T05:16:20Z drmeister: Hello
2014-12-07T05:17:18Z drmeister: I've got swank starting up.  I'm shaking out crashes that occur when I connect emacs to it.
2014-12-07T05:17:39Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations!
2014-12-07T05:17:43Z White_Flame: p_nathan: that was a few years ago.  Google for the quote and you'll hit it
2014-12-07T05:19:53Z White_Flame: p_nathan: here it is, not sure what the aftermath was, though it did make Slashdot, where I saw it: http://www.geekwire.com/2011/western-washington-university-computer-science-department-faces-ax/
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2014-12-07T05:21:22Z p_nathan: White_Flame: Well, that was real special. But then, WWU stopped teaching Ada in Fall 2014
2014-12-07T05:21:48Z p_nathan: So it might not have the most scintillating department to make the case that CS was moving forward.
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2014-12-07T05:25:41Z White_Flame: granted, I'm not sure CS actually is moving forward, but that's a separate topic ;)
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2014-12-07T05:30:44Z p_nathan: Yes, and I'm sure it's not the topic of #lisp. :)
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2014-12-07T06:25:07Z goglosh: does hy count as a lisp?
2014-12-07T06:25:08Z goglosh: :P
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2014-12-07T06:48:35Z beach: pjb: I am writing a dedicated parser for the dpANS.  I tokenize a file into a list of tokens, and then I plan to use combinatory parsing to parse the list of tokens.  I already have a framework for combinatory parsing which I am reusing.
2014-12-07T06:57:16Z beach: pjb: The tokenizer keeps lots of things not usually considered to be tokens, such as comments, whitespace, newlines, etc.  Since the entire file is turned into a list of tokens, it is easy to remove unwanted tokens from the list before parsing it.
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2014-12-07T06:58:25Z beach: pjb: https://github.com/robert-strandh/dpANS-parser
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2014-12-07T10:56:44Z gabriel_laddel: White_Flame: so, funnily enough, I'm only fuming because I've got to deal with ALGOL. When programming common lisp I'm quite a content happy person. As for beneficial, being bigoted is the only way I'm aware of to get anything done.
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2014-12-07T11:24:17Z eudoxia: beach: regarding parsing the draft spec, here's what i have so far https://github.com/eudoxia0/cl-ansi-spec
2014-12-07T11:24:55Z eudoxia: it's not much but it at least *parses* everything, now i just have to work on sifting through the markup to rescue some structure representation of the spec
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2014-12-07T11:32:43Z gabriel_laddel: |3b|: So, two things. First, thanks for the critique, you are entirely correct on all counts and I shall update my argument accordingly. Secondly I'm uninterested in convincing algol programmers that Lisps are better except by use of force (ie, you work for me: write lisp). What I would like is an apartheid system that allows me to do all of the interesting computations I'd like to do without interacting with their
2014-12-07T11:32:43Z gabriel_laddel: code|worldview. There is more to be said on the matter (including updating my arguments) but unfortunately I've got to put it off and handle more pressing matters.
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2014-12-07T13:04:43Z jeaye: Any updated recommendations for clisp in vim (beyond slimv and the even-more-outdated limp)?
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2014-12-07T13:05:19Z sternenseemann: jeaye: there is no real cool way
2014-12-07T13:05:29Z sternenseemann: jeaye: slimv sucks because it breaks everything
2014-12-07T13:05:42Z sternenseemann: jeaye: I mostly use it in another shell
2014-12-07T13:06:06Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: ohi
2014-12-07T13:06:11Z sternenseemann: jeaye: but here's a serious idea: write a makefile which calls clisp -repl file.lisp
2014-12-07T13:06:19Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: ohai!
2014-12-07T13:06:26Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: I thought you were doing php
2014-12-07T13:06:46Z sternenseemann: jasom: then you can just do :make to play around with your code in vim :)
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2014-12-07T13:07:16Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: I soon dropped it because it's an ugly language and started python, then C and finally lisp :)
2014-12-07T13:07:20Z jeaye: Word.
2014-12-07T13:07:24Z jeaye: Thanks for the update.
2014-12-07T13:07:33Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: and you left #archlinux.de, too!
2014-12-07T13:07:41Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: but you didn't leave vim
2014-12-07T13:08:03Z sternenseemann: jeaye: I don't do it like that, that was just a quick idea, I think i'll try that for myself
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2014-12-07T13:08:51Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: I am currently using voidlinux as main distro actually but I left #archlinux.de earlier because I did not really read along too often since I found the irc channel of our local hackerspace
2014-12-07T13:09:07Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: I am sometimes there though
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2014-12-07T13:09:30Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: oh right, the distro with the silly css animation on mouse-over
2014-12-07T13:09:30Z jeaye: sternenseemann: Seems more indirect than something like: command! lispl clisp -repl %
2014-12-07T13:09:30Z axion: jeaye: slimv is not outdated
2014-12-07T13:09:35Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: and I tried emacs but it did not work for me
2014-12-07T13:09:48Z wasamasa: "did not work"
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2014-12-07T13:09:55Z wasamasa: apparently you didn't use arch long enough
2014-12-07T13:10:02Z sternenseemann: jeaye: yeah, but entering :make is a little bit more convenient
2014-12-07T13:10:16Z axion: jeaye: slimv was updated 1 hour ago
2014-12-07T13:10:24Z jeaye: axion: I didn't say it was.
2014-12-07T13:10:33Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: I had it on my laptop for 3 months I guess.
2014-12-07T13:10:47Z axion: well you referred to limp as "even-more-outdated", implying the former was
2014-12-07T13:10:48Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: before that I had mostly shitty hardware and a mac :/
2014-12-07T13:10:57Z jeaye: axion: I just said that limp was more outdated than slimv, which it is.
2014-12-07T13:11:06Z sternenseemann: axion: IMO slimv breaks a lot of things.
2014-12-07T13:11:17Z axion: i've been using slimv for years without issue
2014-12-07T13:11:27Z sternenseemann: axion: for example my Supertab completion and my <Leader> bindings
2014-12-07T13:11:36Z axion: you can change that in the config
2014-12-07T13:11:39Z sternenseemann: axion: since it just gets everything with ","
2014-12-07T13:11:43Z jeaye: axion: Mind telling me how to reset the slimv repl?
2014-12-07T13:11:55Z axion: reset in what way?
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2014-12-07T13:12:01Z sternenseemann: axion: i felt like it was too much bloat for me and it did annoy me...
2014-12-07T13:12:11Z jeaye: axion: I want to run my full program without the repl remembering anything else from previous runs.
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2014-12-07T13:12:34Z axion: sorry, i don't understand
2014-12-07T13:12:38Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: I dropped archlinux because I felt like my configuration was running in a wrong direction
2014-12-07T13:12:39Z jeaye: If I'm filling a global variable, for example, subsequent runs of ,b will keep piling up.
2014-12-07T13:12:46Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: so I wanted to install a new linux
2014-12-07T13:12:55Z wasamasa: lol
2014-12-07T13:12:59Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: and I was feeling like trying something new ^^
2014-12-07T13:14:08Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: biggest problem for me currently is a big lack of packages on void
2014-12-07T13:14:15Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: uhuh
2014-12-07T13:14:46Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: it's pretty easy to get packages in the main repos
2014-12-07T13:14:55Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: but packaging sucks :\
2014-12-07T13:14:58Z jeaye: axion: ,b doesn't run a buffer from scratch, in short.
2014-12-07T13:15:01Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: well, at least you didn't switch to gentoo
2014-12-07T13:15:04Z jeaye: It uses the current state of the repl.
2014-12-07T13:15:38Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: I decided against funtoo/gentoo because compiling overnight on a laptop is not fun
2014-12-07T13:15:44Z sternenseemann: wasamasa: even if quadcore
2014-12-07T13:16:09Z jeaye: sternenseemann: I'd hate to give up pacman.
2014-12-07T13:16:13Z wasamasa: ^
2014-12-07T13:16:33Z jeaye: We use Ubuntu and CentOS at work and putting up with apt/yum is just saddening.
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2014-12-07T13:16:37Z sternenseemann: jeaye: pacman is pretty cool I know
2014-12-07T13:16:39Z axion: me too, i've been using arch since 2001. sort of became one with it
2014-12-07T13:16:47Z sternenseemann: jeaye: xbps is also pretty cool and fast
2014-12-07T13:17:08Z Shinmera: Have I accidentally joined #linux instead of #lisp?
2014-12-07T13:17:14Z sternenseemann: jeaye: annoying is that it is split in more than one binary so it tab-completes horribly
2014-12-07T13:17:18Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: nope :D
2014-12-07T13:17:37Z sternenseemann: jeaye: but packaging and building of packages is solved pretty well
2014-12-07T13:17:48Z Shinmera: sternenseemann: Good, then this is off topic.
2014-12-07T13:17:50Z sternenseemann: jeaye: in contrast to pacman with makepkg
2014-12-07T13:18:22Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: /ignore sternenseemann :)
2014-12-07T13:18:31Z Shinmera: I'd rather you just stop.
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2014-12-07T13:19:25Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: well ok, I personally don't mind off-topic in channels…
2014-12-07T13:19:30Z jeaye: Ok, back on topic. If anyone else can tell me how to run a program in slimv which resets/ignores the previous slimv state, that'd be veyr helpful.
2014-12-07T13:20:13Z sternenseemann: jeaye: I think that's difficult because you'd need to restart the swank
2014-12-07T13:20:35Z sternenseemann: jeaye: I dunno if this is possible
2014-12-07T13:20:35Z jeaye: So far, the only solution I've found is to restart it. Yup.
2014-12-07T13:20:59Z jeaye: Though, this is my first day of lisp, so I'm not 100% sure how much I'll be needing the repl when editing my programs anyway.
2014-12-07T13:21:17Z axion: umm
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2014-12-07T13:21:24Z Shinmera: The REPL is an invaluable tool.
2014-12-07T13:21:26Z hrnz: hi
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2014-12-07T13:22:12Z jeaye: It's an invaluable tool which saturates over time in slimv.
2014-12-07T13:22:53Z sternenseemann: Icedman: als sich drei leute über pacman unterhielten kam "Have I accidentally joined #linux instead of #lisp?
2014-12-07T13:22:58Z sternenseemann: fuuu
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2014-12-07T13:23:25Z Shinmera: sternenseemann: It's not about arch or pacman, it's about being off-topic, regardless of what you're saying.
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2014-12-07T13:24:00Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: I did not suppose you were against linux or pacman
2014-12-07T13:24:40Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: I just don't like irc channels which are against off-topic
2014-12-07T13:24:48Z Shinmera: Well this is one of them.
2014-12-07T13:25:00Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: maybe you want to talk about linux with the lisp community?!
2014-12-07T13:25:28Z Shinmera: jeaye: I don't know if you have tried emacs with vim modes attached, maybe you can give that a shot.
2014-12-07T13:25:41Z Shinmera: jeaye: From what I've heard slimv is heavily underdeveloped in comparison to slime
2014-12-07T13:25:48Z jeaye: Shinmera: That's the common suggestion. :)
2014-12-07T13:25:53Z Shinmera: sternenseemann: Then there's #lispcafe
2014-12-07T13:26:30Z Shinmera: jeaye: I've never used vim myself, so I'm sorry I can't give you good advice on it :/
2014-12-07T13:26:32Z jeaye: Been using vim for years. Hurts to be in such a spot.
2014-12-07T13:26:37Z jeaye: Shinmera: No worries.
2014-12-07T13:26:53Z axion: with that said, slimv is very powerful
2014-12-07T13:27:00Z sternenseemann: jeaye: evil-mode is ok. But it did not work for me with emacs and slime
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2014-12-07T13:27:17Z sternenseemann: jeaye: also because slime and evil-mode do not work together proberply
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2014-12-07T13:29:47Z Grue`: i heard of people who used them together, so I doubt it
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2014-12-07T13:30:19Z sternenseemann: Grue`: it works but I didn't find it nice
2014-12-07T13:32:01Z jeaye: axion: You use slimv daily?
2014-12-07T13:32:34Z axion: yes
2014-12-07T13:32:39Z jeaye: I've found the paredit very odd.
2014-12-07T13:32:50Z axion: it is your first day, no?
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2014-12-07T13:32:56Z pnpuff: Who put the dip in the dip da dip da dip? XD
2014-12-07T13:33:01Z jeaye: Well, it changes the way vim functions.
2014-12-07T13:33:11Z axion: not at all
2014-12-07T13:33:39Z jeaye: If I have (list 1 2) and I want to wrap it such that it's (foo (list 1 2)) I go to be beginning of the line, open a paren, but then it closes it and won't let me delete the closing one.
2014-12-07T13:34:01Z jeaye: So then I need to delete the (list 1 2) and paste it into the new parens?
2014-12-07T13:34:04Z hitecnologys: jeaye: I use slimv as well.
2014-12-07T13:34:10Z jeaye: There has to be a better way.
2014-12-07T13:34:14Z Shinmera: No, you use paredit-slurp
2014-12-07T13:34:15Z axion: go to the beginning of the line, type (foo), then ,>
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2014-12-07T13:34:27Z hitecnologys: jeaye: it's not quite as complete as SLIME, right.
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2014-12-07T13:34:42Z axion: i suggest reading the tutorial a bit more
2014-12-07T13:34:55Z jeaye: axion: The slimv tutorial?
2014-12-07T13:34:57Z axion: yes
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2014-12-07T13:35:23Z jeaye: Ok, I'll get back to it. Also, ,> worked nicely. Thanks.
2014-12-07T13:35:25Z sternenseemann: jeaye: you can disable paredit, I don't like it, too
2014-12-07T13:35:29Z Shinmera: jeaye: I don't know how the commands translate to vim, but look at this http://danmidwood.com/content/2014/11/21/animated-paredit.html
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2014-12-07T13:35:51Z jeaye: sternenseemann: Yup, I've seen that. Just trying the most travelled path for now.
2014-12-07T13:36:00Z axion: there are many <Leader> functions for manipulating levels of nexted parens
2014-12-07T13:36:07Z axion: read the tut :)
2014-12-07T13:36:16Z jeaye: On it.
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2014-12-07T13:40:01Z axion: but anyway, you shouldn't want to delete parens manually, as this will off-balance them. if you absolutely must, and this should be used sparingly, toggle predit on/off with ,(
2014-12-07T13:41:40Z jeaye: Ok, I can see why you always want to keep things balanced.
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2014-12-07T13:56:52Z sternenseemann: Shinmera: there's almost nobody in #lispcafe though
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2014-12-07T13:58:11Z Shinmera: Not my problem.
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2014-12-07T14:21:40Z wasamasa: sternenseemann: there are a few people up for discussion of all kinds of lisp dialects on ##lisp
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2014-12-07T14:47:49Z drmeister: Hello
2014-12-07T14:48:09Z InvalidCo: hello
2014-12-07T14:48:26Z InvalidCo: how's it going?
2014-12-07T14:49:05Z drmeister: How do Common Lisp implementations generate backtraces?  I have my way but I'm not happy with it.
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2014-12-07T14:49:27Z stassats`: by walking the stack and looking for saved frame pointers, naturally
2014-12-07T14:50:14Z stassats`: and by looking at the return address, then finding inside which function that return address is
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2014-12-07T14:50:56Z drmeister: When I type (+ "abc" "def") in SBCL I get the following error:   debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR: The value "abc" is not of type NUMBER.
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2014-12-07T14:51:41Z drmeister: I ask for a backtrace and the top entry is:
2014-12-07T14:51:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zu0QlZsP
2014-12-07T14:52:16Z stassats`: right
2014-12-07T14:52:46Z drmeister: Sorry the IRCCloud server I use to access IRC is acting up.
2014-12-07T14:52:52Z InvalidCo: those are just sbcl repl internals
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2014-12-07T14:53:49Z drmeister: Where does the (+ "abc" "def") get stored?   Is it generated at compile time and written into the generated function and then written into the functions stack frame?
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2014-12-07T14:54:23Z stassats`: (+ "abc" "def") is where the error happens, so it's not stored anywhere
2014-12-07T14:54:52Z drmeister: How does the string "(+ \"abc\" \"def\")" get generated to be printed in the backtrace?
2014-12-07T14:55:17Z InvalidCo: I think there's some additional magic with the fundamental operators
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2014-12-07T14:55:29Z InvalidCo: you could try making your own function which only checks in the function body for correct types
2014-12-07T14:55:31Z stassats`: drmeister: it takes the PC, program counter, and searches all the functions for one which contains it
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2014-12-07T14:56:10Z stassats`: then that function has debug information, which tells which values are live at which points, so it knows that the registers used to pass "abc" and "def" are alive at that time, and it gets their values
2014-12-07T14:56:33Z drmeister: It sounds so obvious. But I type (+ "a" "b") in the repl;  it gets compiled into machine code;  it is run;   the condition is generated;  the debugger is entered;  a backtrace is generated;  the (+ "a" "b") should be long gone when the backtrace is generated.
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2014-12-07T14:56:45Z ggole: It is.
2014-12-07T14:56:49Z stassats`: (+ "a" "b") isn't compiled
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2014-12-07T14:57:55Z drmeister: How is it evaluated?
2014-12-07T14:58:05Z stassats`: (funcall #'+ "a" "b")
2014-12-07T14:58:50Z stassats`: if it were compiled, it wouldn't get as far as calling +, it would just compile into (error "you dun goofed with your types")
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2014-12-07T15:00:27Z drmeister: I see.   At the very least though the name "+" must be associated with the function.
2014-12-07T15:01:01Z stassats`: it just searches the heap
2014-12-07T15:01:13Z stassats`: not the whole, around the PC
2014-12-07T15:01:26Z drmeister: What does it search for?
2014-12-07T15:01:39Z stassats`: for the function object
2014-12-07T15:01:55Z drmeister: And the function object has the name associated with it - correct?
2014-12-07T15:01:57Z stassats`: the program counter is in the middle of a function
2014-12-07T15:02:04Z stassats`: a function has a slot where the name is stored
2014-12-07T15:02:06Z drmeister: The function object memory contains the name, somewhere.
2014-12-07T15:03:27Z drmeister: Ok, so it constructs the string '(+ "abc" "def")' by finding the name of the function in the function object on the heap and the arguments from the stack frame and prints (+ "abc" "def")
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2014-12-07T15:04:03Z stassats`: sometimes there's no trace of the arguments, so it can't access them
2014-12-07T15:04:10Z drmeister: Right.
2014-12-07T15:04:12Z stassats`: with high debug values things are saved on the stack
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2014-12-07T15:05:08Z InvalidCo: is the function object stored on the heap?
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2014-12-07T15:05:12Z drmeister: Does SBCL store any source file information(file name/line number) under with high debug values?
2014-12-07T15:05:19Z stassats`: yes
2014-12-07T15:05:20Z InvalidCo: I thought the compiler just saved the locations and just compared the pc
2014-12-07T15:05:28Z InvalidCo: or, you know, sbcl
2014-12-07T15:05:33Z stassats`: InvalidCo: where else can it be stored?
2014-12-07T15:05:46Z Shinmera: drmeister: You can have a look at some of the functions to get debug info under SBCL here https://github.com/Shinmera/dissect/blob/master/sbcl.lisp
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2014-12-07T15:06:15Z Shinmera: drmeister: And otherwise, SLIME will of course have the code to handle debugging.
2014-12-07T15:06:17Z InvalidCo: stassats`: I didn't really understand "finding it on the heap" in this context
2014-12-07T15:06:36Z stassats`: the PC is only relevant to the top function, the previous PC, or actually the address of the next instruction, is saved on the stack by the CALL instruction
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2014-12-07T15:07:06Z _2_Pilar: salut
2014-12-07T15:07:20Z drmeister: SLIME is starting up and having some trouble.  I've made many changes to my code over the past weeks to prepare for incorporating Cleavir and my backtrace/debugging info has devolved to a point where it's difficult to debug.
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2014-12-07T15:08:29Z drmeister: My pain:
2014-12-07T15:08:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Ak9ZnbpG
2014-12-07T15:08:45Z InvalidCo: stassats`: would you happen to know how sbcl handles threads and special variables?
2014-12-07T15:09:03Z stassats`: InvalidCo: each thread has a binding stack
2014-12-07T15:09:28Z InvalidCo: there's just special functions along the way to add stacks per thread?
2014-12-07T15:09:28Z stassats`: each time you create a new binding, it gets pushed on that stack, and popped upon returning/unwinding
2014-12-07T15:10:01Z stassats`: it's just allocated together with the thread structure and the other stacks
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2014-12-07T15:10:13Z InvalidCo: aight
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2014-12-07T15:13:31Z drmeister: My main problem came about when I stopped using ECL's (LAMBDA-BLOCK FOO (...) ...) construct and switched to (LAMBDA (...) (BLOCK FOO ...))      While being non-standard and causing massive problems with code walkers LAMBDA-BLOCK had a nice property that the function name was immediately available.
2014-12-07T15:14:07Z drmeister: My backtraces became full of LAMBDA's.
2014-12-07T15:14:20Z drmeister: Which isn't very informative.
2014-12-07T15:16:03Z sternenseemann: jeaye: I ended up with this in my ~/.vimrc: nmap <Leader>l :!clisp -i ~/.clisprc.lisp -repl %<CR>
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2014-12-07T15:23:13Z jeaye: sternenseemann: Better than a Makefile, no doubt. :P
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2014-12-07T15:23:33Z ivan4th: quick SLIME question: is there an option to use shorter package name for symbol completion when a symbol is available in several packages? For instance, I want uio:ensu-dir-pa to expand to uiop:ensure-directory-pathname and not uiop/pathname:ensure-directory-pathname
2014-12-07T15:23:51Z stassats`: don't think so
2014-12-07T15:24:01Z stassats`: it does show the shortest name in the repl
2014-12-07T15:24:23Z sternenseemann: jeaye: yep
2014-12-07T15:24:40Z stassats`: ah, that's a different issue, asdf reexports symbols
2014-12-07T15:24:56Z stassats`: and asdf/cl makes any autocompletion useless
2014-12-07T15:25:15Z jeaye: stassats`: I've added it as well, thanks. Still giving slimv a fair shot.
2014-12-07T15:25:26Z jeaye: sternenseemann: ^
2014-12-07T15:25:43Z ivan4th: stassats`: well, SLIME doesn't offer completions from asdf/cl too often
2014-12-07T15:25:43Z drmeister: One problem I run into is a lot of anonymous code like (lambda (x y) (+ x y)) gets generated.   What do you name it?
2014-12-07T15:26:23Z drmeister: If I have (lambda (x y) (block plus (+ x y)))   I'm now digging into the lambda to find the block and use the name PLUS
2014-12-07T15:26:32Z sternenseemann: jeaye: the nice thing about clisp is that it is also convenient to use when not run as child of a SLIME/slimv
2014-12-07T15:26:33Z drmeister: But without the block - it's anonymous
2014-12-07T15:26:40Z sternenseemann: jeaye: because readline interface…
2014-12-07T15:26:58Z jeaye: sure
2014-12-07T15:27:07Z stassats`: drmeister: this is not fool proof
2014-12-07T15:27:13Z stassats`: you do need a dedicated named-lambda
2014-12-07T15:27:38Z drmeister: stassats`: What do you mean by a "dedicated named-lambda"?
2014-12-07T15:27:55Z drmeister: Do you mean like ECL's LAMBDA-BLOCK?
2014-12-07T15:27:56Z stassats`: LAMBDA BLOCK NAME doesn't cut it
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2014-12-07T15:29:25Z drmeister: stassats`: I don't understand, but I very much want to?
2014-12-07T15:29:41Z drmeister: What do you mean by "LAMBDA BLOCK NAME doesn't cut it"
2014-12-07T15:30:09Z ivan4th digs into swank-fuzzy to see whether the autocompletion package problem can be fixed. It makes working with uiop or :package-inferred-system rather problematic
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2014-12-07T15:38:03Z ivan4th: gotcha https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/swank-fuzzy.lisp#L268
2014-12-07T15:38:22Z stassats`: drmeister: it is not how functions get named
2014-12-07T15:38:37Z drmeister: How do functions get named?
2014-12-07T15:39:19Z drmeister: (defun foo (...) ...)    FOO is the name
2014-12-07T15:40:15Z drmeister: (function (lambda (...) (block BAR ...)))   I'm thinking of digging into the lambda form and using BAR as the name
2014-12-07T15:40:41Z drmeister: (function (lambda (...) ...))    I'm at an absolute loss as to what to name it and it comes up way too often.
2014-12-07T15:41:58Z stassats`: but block doesn't name the function
2014-12-07T15:42:53Z drmeister: But  (define foo (...) ...) --> (*FSET 'FOO (FUNCTION (LAMBDA (...) (BLOCK FOO ...)))
2014-12-07T15:43:00Z stassats`: so what?
2014-12-07T15:43:16Z ivan4th: sorry for stupid question, is there any standard mechanism in SLIME so that I can set some option in my elisp and it's automagically forwarded to SWANK upon connection? So I can keep my completion preferences in emacs config. I guess there's no such thing, but just in case...
2014-12-07T15:43:22Z drmeister: I'm using the block name to name the function.
2014-12-07T15:43:35Z drmeister: How do you name a function?
2014-12-07T15:43:54Z stassats`: ivan4th: just put things into ~/.swank.lisp
2014-12-07T15:43:59Z stassats`: drmeister: defun, compile
2014-12-07T15:44:25Z ivan4th: stassats`: ok
2014-12-07T15:44:54Z drmeister: So (FUNCTION (lambda (...) ...)) creates an anonymous function and DEFUN or COMPILE set its name?
2014-12-07T15:45:31Z stassats`: defun or compile does whatever it wants
2014-12-07T15:45:36Z stassats`: like expanding into named-lambda
2014-12-07T15:45:45Z drmeister: What is named-lambda?
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2014-12-07T15:46:06Z stassats`: whatever you want it to be to get the job done
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2014-12-07T15:46:48Z drmeister: Is named-lambda an SBCL symbol that works like ECL's lambda-block ?
2014-12-07T15:46:57Z stassats`: yes
2014-12-07T15:48:01Z drmeister: Ok, so the problem I ran into with lambda-block   is that it breaks code walkers like the one in Cleavir when   (function (lambda-block foo (...) ...)) is encountered.
2014-12-07T15:48:57Z stassats`: fix the code walker then
2014-12-07T15:49:05Z drmeister: So I converted all instances of (lambda-block foo (...) ...) to (lambda (...) (block foo ...))
2014-12-07T15:50:03Z drmeister: It's not the code walkers problem.   You have to go beyond the CL specification if you allow symbols other than LAMBDA as the head of a form that is the argument to FUNCTION.
2014-12-07T15:50:30Z stassats`: so what?
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2014-12-07T15:51:33Z drmeister: I thought I was missing something.   I thought there was another way to name functions using idiomatic Common Lisp.
2014-12-07T15:52:25Z drmeister: Apparently not.   So you are saying to name functions I have to have a named-lambda or lambda-block that provides the name and modify my FUNCTION special operator to work with it.
2014-12-07T15:53:14Z stassats`: you can name it afterwards
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2014-12-07T15:54:37Z stassats`: maybe nobody will notice that their (lambda () (block name)) will suddenly name the function and you can get away with it
2014-12-07T15:54:41Z stassats`: or maybe some people will like it
2014-12-07T15:55:00Z drmeister: I just googled "named-lambda sbcl" and the first thing that comes up is a someone complaining that it breaks code-walkers - great.   https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310097
2014-12-07T15:55:39Z drmeister: stassats`: I think it would look more like a feature than a bug.
2014-12-07T15:55:57Z Grue`: heh, so ECL was just doing what everyone else is doing
2014-12-07T15:56:24Z drmeister: Yeah, but SBCL uses NAMED-LAMBDA and ECL uses LAMBDA-BLOCK.
2014-12-07T15:56:46Z Grue`: well, it's not a standard package symbol anyway
2014-12-07T15:56:50Z drmeister: Now the CLHS says if you create a new special form you have to also provide a macro that would transform that special form into idiomatic Common Lisp.
2014-12-07T15:56:54Z stassats`: named-lambda can be done without confusing code walkers
2014-12-07T15:57:25Z stassats`: see sb-ext:truly-the for example
2014-12-07T15:57:39Z drmeister: But that doesn't apply here because what's going on is the FUNCTION special operator is being modified to support NAMED-LAMBDA (SBCL) or LAMBDA-BLOCK (ECL).
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2014-12-07T15:59:11Z drmeister: How would I get at the code for sb-ext:truly-the quickly?
2014-12-07T15:59:17Z stassats`: M-.
2014-12-07T16:00:13Z stassats`: the compiler treats it as a special form, macroexpand expands into THE
2014-12-07T16:00:54Z stassats`: just don't ever expand into (function named-lambda)
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2014-12-07T16:05:24Z drmeister: stassats`: I don't think that is the issue.   The issue is that SBCL has modified FUNCTION to accept NAMED-LAMBDA and ECL has modified their FUNCTION to accept LAMBDA-BLOCK, that will break a code-walker.   It broke Cleavir's code walker.   FUNCTION doesn't expand macros.
2014-12-07T16:05:55Z stassats`: easy, don't modify function
2014-12-07T16:06:10Z drmeister: Hmmm, maybe a code-walker should treat the argument of FUNCTION as a macro and expand it?
2014-12-07T16:06:36Z drmeister: If you don't modify function then it doesn't use named-lambda to name the function object.
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2014-12-07T16:09:15Z drmeister: This has been very helpful.  It sounds like to name function objects, SBCL and ECL implementations have extended the FUNCTION special operator.
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2014-12-07T16:11:33Z drmeister: I thought that was a bad thing - but apparently not so bad.
2014-12-07T16:12:19Z drmeister: But it broke Cleavir - I'm curious what beach's thoughts are on these?
2014-12-07T16:13:39Z drmeister: One simple solution I had was get the name XXX when the lambda has the form (lambda (...) (block XXX ...))     While XXX may not always be meant to be the name of the function it seems there is little harm and a lot of benefit.
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2014-12-07T16:13:47Z stassats`: why does NAME-LAMBDA have to be inside FUNCTION to work? it does not
2014-12-07T16:14:35Z drmeister: I'm not sure about NAMED-LAMBDA and how it's used.   I know that in ECL LAMBDA-BLOCK shows up in FUNCTION all the time.
2014-12-07T16:14:53Z stassats`: you have full control over it
2014-12-07T16:15:12Z stassats`: don't expand into #'named-lambda, don't modify FUNCTION
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2014-12-07T16:16:25Z drmeister: Here's the ECL source code for DEFUN
2014-12-07T16:16:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wKQ4e4RG
2014-12-07T16:16:49Z drmeister: Note:   (let* ((function `#'(ext::lambda-block ...
2014-12-07T16:17:06Z drmeister: The only way to make that work is to modify the FUNCTION special operator.
2014-12-07T16:17:19Z stassats`: so, why do you have to make it work?
2014-12-07T16:17:23Z drmeister: Let me check the SBCL code
2014-12-07T16:17:56Z stassats`: you control both the usage and implementation
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2014-12-07T16:19:33Z drmeister: Where would the FUNCTION special operator be implemented in the SBCL source code?
2014-12-07T16:20:14Z stassats`: M-.
2014-12-07T16:20:15Z drmeister: Could I find it by grepping for "defun.*function" ?  Probably not
2014-12-07T16:20:26Z drmeister: I don't have slime set up for SBCL
2014-12-07T16:20:33Z stassats`: certainly not "defun.*"
2014-12-07T16:21:00Z drmeister: Of course not.  Is there a define-special-operator form or something like it?
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2014-12-07T16:21:47Z stassats`: it doesn't matter what FUNCTION does for the current problem
2014-12-07T16:23:03Z drmeister: It would be very informative if SBCL's implementation of FUNCTION was extended to handle named-lambda.
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2014-12-07T16:25:55Z Grue`: fun-name-leaf in ir1-translators.lisp seems to be the parser for FUNCTION argument
2014-12-07T16:26:13Z Grue`: it does check for named-lambda and lambda-with-lexenv
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2014-12-07T16:33:31Z drmeister: Grue`: I agree - although it is convoluted.
2014-12-07T16:34:35Z drmeister: So why do they do that when they know it will break code-walkers? Maybe they don't care?   Or I'm still missing something?
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2014-12-07T16:35:33Z drmeister: For me it's important because I'm integrating Cleavir.   Cleavir walks standard Common Lisp code.  When it hit the first (FUNCTION (LAMBDA-BLOCK XXX (...) ...))   it had a fit.
2014-12-07T16:37:12Z drmeister: So, by hand, I transformed every LAMBDA-BLOCK into a (LAMBDA (...) (BLOCK ...)) in the ECL source code.   It works but all my functions now have no names and debugging sucks.
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2014-12-07T16:37:49Z drmeister: Then I dig deeper and discover that SBCL does the same non-standard trick to name functions  - and then I'm like  whaaaaaa?
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2014-12-07T16:50:09Z drmeister: What I don't understand now is why DEFUN and COMPILE don't just apply the name to the function object after it is created.  It seems like a simple way to avoid all this trouble.
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2014-12-07T16:54:09Z Xach: Does anyone happen to have sbcl 1.0.57.debian?
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2014-12-07T16:55:34Z stassats`: i have 1.0.56.52-f1f283e-dirty
2014-12-07T17:00:27Z Xach: stassats`: Is sb-introspect a contrib or built-in?
2014-12-07T17:01:11Z stassats`: a contrib
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2014-12-07T17:01:21Z drmeister: Although, there is value in being able to say (function (named-lambda FOO (...) ...))   its a compact way of providing a function object with a name for debugging and backtraces.
2014-12-07T17:01:44Z Xach: stassats`: Thanks. cl-logic had an implicit dependency on sb-introspect. the author said "i fixed it but can't test because there's no problem on 1.0.57.debian"
2014-12-07T17:01:45Z stassats`: why do you insist on FUNCTION?
2014-12-07T17:01:57Z stassats`: just make named-lambda to work without FUNCTION
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2014-12-07T17:02:12Z drmeister: FUNCTION is the only way to create functions objects.
2014-12-07T17:02:22Z stassats`: not true
2014-12-07T17:02:27Z drmeister: How else?
2014-12-07T17:02:56Z stassats`: many ways, but it doesn't matter, since you're the implementor, you can make anything return function objects
2014-12-07T17:04:14Z drmeister: There is no other way to create function objects or closures in Common Lisp.   I'm writing a Common Lisp.
2014-12-07T17:04:53Z stassats`: that's a poor argument, even if that were true
2014-12-07T17:05:00Z ggole: You're the implementor, you can do whatever the hell you like.
2014-12-07T17:05:01Z stassats`: (coerce '(lambda () 10) 'function)
2014-12-07T17:05:09Z stassats`: (compile nil '(lambda () 10))
2014-12-07T17:06:04Z stassats`: Xach: he may be using it from slime, it requires sb-introspect
2014-12-07T17:06:10Z stassats`: or loading from his .sbclrc
2014-12-07T17:06:53Z drmeister: I'm pretty sure coerce is implemented using FUNCTION
2014-12-07T17:07:01Z stassats`: it can't possibly be
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2014-12-07T17:07:35Z stassats`: and i'm sure that FUNCTION isn't implemented with FUNCTION either
2014-12-07T17:08:14Z Xach: stassats`: I mentioned that in my initial bug report, too.
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2014-12-07T17:08:40Z drmeister: I think you guys are getting annoyed but I'm not trying to be obtuse.
2014-12-07T17:09:46Z drmeister: Both SBCL and ECL modify their FUNCTION special operator (breaking code-walkers) to provide named functions.  I was just trying to understand why.
2014-12-07T17:10:07Z stassats`: because they want it to be similar to LAMBDA
2014-12-07T17:10:12Z stassats`: you don't have to follow everything
2014-12-07T17:11:14Z drmeister: Yes, I can do whatever I want, but I've learned to follow other implementations because then I can take advantage of other peoples deep thinking on the topic.
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2014-12-07T17:11:53Z drmeister: I'm going to stop now.  I'll pick this up later when beach comes on - I'm really curious to hear his thoughts on it.
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2014-12-07T17:48:22Z ivan4th: made :package-inferred-system and uiop stuff a bit more usable with slime fuzzy completion https://github.com/ivan4th/slime/commit/7f53acc76fa68bd77ce523d1f26179e1659125d6 ... will test it a bit before filing a pull request
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2014-12-07T17:49:38Z ivan4th: For anyone interested, this makes it possible to fix slime fuzzy completion giving uiop/pathname:ensure-directory-pathname for uio:ensu-dir-path (uiop:ensure-directory-pathname being more appropriate)
2014-12-07T17:51:19Z ivan4th: by adding (setf *fuzzy-duplicate-symbol-filter* :nearest-package) to your ~/.swank.lisp
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2014-12-07T18:30:45Z ivan4th: is there currently any defacto standard way to do mkdtemp besides nix:mkdtemp in osicat?
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2014-12-07T18:40:39Z H4ns: ivan4th: i'm using the temporary file functions from cl-fad (because i've written them), but they have been criticised as "unsafe"
2014-12-07T18:44:58Z ivan4th: H4ns: mkdtemp creates temporary _directory_. Seems like there's no such stuff in cl-fad or uiop
2014-12-07T18:45:16Z H4ns: ah, sorry.
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2014-12-07T18:48:10Z dim: (ensure-directories-exist (make-temp-filename ...)) or something?
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2014-12-07T18:49:58Z ivan4th: dim: that's how /tmp races are created :)
2014-12-07T18:50:43Z ivan4th: http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Temporary-Files.html#index-tmpnam
2014-12-07T18:51:24Z ivan4th: although I think it's possible to make make-temp-filename that's unpredictable enough
2014-12-07T18:52:28Z dim: are mkdir / ensure-directories-exist atomic?
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2014-12-07T18:54:37Z ivan4th: the problem is that if someone may be able to guess the new directory name and create a symlink before ensure-directories-exist is called... say if you use fixed random seed or something
2014-12-07T18:59:37Z ivan4th: so (ensure-directories-exist (make-temp-filename ...)) may make your program insecure depending on the context
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2014-12-07T19:04:13Z fe[nl]ix: dim: creating more than one directory can be atomic, but I bet nobody does it the right way
2014-12-07T19:05:33Z dim: I bet I wouldn't do it the right way
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2014-12-07T19:07:41Z p_nathan: probably requires studying the source of the secure tempfile creation tools, dim
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2014-12-07T19:23:08Z drmeister: On further reflection the correct way to annotate a LAMBDA in (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) would be using a declaration like (declare (function-name FOO)) or (declare (function-name (setf FOO)))
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2014-12-07T19:26:33Z drmeister: Then I can set whatever I want as the function name.   Extracting the topmost block name out of a lambda expression of the form (lambda (...) ...declares... ...docstring... (block XXX ...))  is a bad idea (although my backtraces look useful again) because it can't handle (setf XXX) functions properly.
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2014-12-07T19:48:57Z ivan4th: posted my pull request https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/215 but travis tests fail due to http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/sbcl/sbcl-1.2.6-x86-64-linux-binary.tar.bz2 not being a bzip2 file (?)
2014-12-07T19:49:27Z stassats`: is it html?
2014-12-07T19:50:28Z ivan4th: "The request could not be satisfied." seems like sourceforge.net is experiencing some problems
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2014-12-07T20:42:29Z petrutrimbitas: hi, i’m trying to flatten a list, but it does not work: http://ideone.com/urEVdG i can’t understand why it doesn’t work
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2014-12-07T20:44:29Z Grue`: what doesn't work in particular?
2014-12-07T20:44:42Z petrutrimbitas: sorry, i’ve made a stupid mistake
2014-12-07T20:44:48Z petrutrimbitas: written flatten instead of fla
2014-12-07T20:44:53Z Baggers: Anybody else having issues downloading sbcl?
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2014-12-07T20:45:19Z Grue`: Baggers: yeah, there's some problem with sourceforge
2014-12-07T20:46:19Z Baggers: ah ok thanks, any other good place to get hold of it?
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2014-12-07T20:47:49Z Grue`: well, technically sourceforge has a lot of mirrors but so there must be
2014-12-07T20:49:08Z Grue`: hmm, when i go to http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/sbcl/ there's no folder for 1.2.6
2014-12-07T20:49:40Z Grue`: maybe someone accidentally deleted it?
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2014-12-07T20:50:21Z Grue`: or deliberately!
2014-12-07T20:51:43Z Grue`: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sbcl/files/sbcl/1.2.6/ oh great, this works
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2014-12-07T20:58:51Z Baggers: Very odd, thanks though
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2014-12-07T21:08:11Z Posterdati: hi
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2014-12-07T21:09:17Z Posterdati: is anyone interested in a common lisp program to solve electrical circuits?
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2014-12-07T21:28:22Z Posterdati: http://picpaste.com/test_1ph_fault_02_sim-9iOgoYyM.png
2014-12-07T21:28:47Z Posterdati: http://picpaste.com/test_1ph_fault_02-4qITb4U2.png
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2014-12-07T21:40:02Z Xach: Posterdati: Did you make those pictures with Common Lisp?
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2014-12-07T21:40:41Z Posterdati: the simulation yes, the circuit with xfig
2014-12-07T21:42:02Z Posterdati: the complete circuit is this http://picpaste.com/test_1ph_fault_02-UXYSzeQu.png
2014-12-07T21:42:50Z Posterdati: I used a physical lamp model from a work of a polish engineer
2014-12-07T21:43:27Z Posterdati: http://www.fm.tul.cz/files/autoreferat_koprnicky.pdf
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2014-12-07T21:45:09Z Posterdati: Xach: but the program is still in development
2014-12-07T21:45:24Z Xach: Where is the program?
2014-12-07T21:45:40Z Posterdati: https://code.google.com/p/circuit/
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2014-12-07T21:46:41Z Posterdati: the downloadable version source is not the same I used for this simulation, since I've fixed a lot of things in a more lispy way
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2014-12-07T21:47:43Z Posterdati: thanks to pjb!
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2014-12-07T21:48:44Z Posterdati: I'm not an electronic engineer, I'm an electrical one, my program is intended for electromechanical simulations
2014-12-07T21:48:49Z Xach: Posterdati: when will you update the code on Google?
2014-12-07T21:49:47Z Posterdati: as soon as I fixed some bugs, mostly in the errors handling mechanism
2014-12-07T21:50:40Z stacksmith: G'day. Does anyone have any suggestions for serial port communications using CL? Cross-platform would be nice but probably too much to ask for (I am using linux)
2014-12-07T21:50:44Z Posterdati: and I'd like to write a README too
2014-12-07T21:52:11Z Posterdati: I used quickproject as project skeleton
2014-12-07T21:52:18Z Xach: Posterdati: I think you should update the code first, then push the bug fixes and readme later.
2014-12-07T21:54:37Z Posterdati: ok
2014-12-07T21:55:05Z Posterdati: there are a bunch of testing circuits too
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2014-12-07T22:21:17Z Big_G: Hey all
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2014-12-07T22:23:48Z Big_G: Anyone willing to field a question>
2014-12-07T22:24:03Z Shinmera: I don't know, what does that mean?
2014-12-07T22:25:02Z Big_G: I'm mediocre at lisp and I'm wondering who here uses it professionally
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2014-12-07T22:28:05Z wasamasa: does making money with it count?
2014-12-07T22:28:44Z Shinmera: Usually "professional" means making money with a thing.
2014-12-07T22:29:18Z Big_G: Yeah, I was thinking more of a career but anything making money is good
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2014-12-07T22:29:57Z Shinmera: Why is it a concern for you though, are you looking for jobs that use CL?
2014-12-07T22:30:17Z Big_G: Graduating in June and it is an area I'm considering pursuing
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2014-12-07T22:30:27Z Shinmera: Fair enough.
2014-12-07T22:30:53Z Shinmera: You might want to look at http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/
2014-12-07T22:30:54Z wasamasa works at a place with lisp hackers
2014-12-07T22:31:01Z jasom: Big_G: there are a few ex-ITA people that hang out in here I think.  I don't know if they still work in lisp since Google bought ITA out.  Also, I think the d-wave devtools are written in lisp, and there are a couple webdevs that use it as well.
2014-12-07T22:31:32Z Big_G: What is ITA?
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2014-12-07T22:32:07Z wasamasa: a company that made a pretty darn good system for finding and booking flights
2014-12-07T22:32:12Z jasom: Big_G: they wrote QPX, which Orbitz, bing tavel and others use
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2014-12-07T22:32:27Z wasamasa: it's what presumably powers google's flight results
2014-12-07T22:32:42Z Big_G: Very nice. Doesn't seem to get much use these days except in new incarnations like Clojure
2014-12-07T22:32:56Z wasamasa: Big_G: clojure indeed looks like your best bet
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2014-12-07T22:33:43Z jasom: any time I'm in a room with professional lisp developers, I find I'm the dumbest person in the room...
2014-12-07T22:33:55Z Big_G: Don't worry. O
2014-12-07T22:34:00Z Big_G: I'll take that for now jasom
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2014-12-07T22:34:16Z Big_G: How do you feel about Clojure compared to the other dialects?
2014-12-07T22:35:17Z wasamasa: not terribly impressed
2014-12-07T22:35:30Z wasamasa: then, that question is rather something for the ##lisp channel
2014-12-07T22:35:33Z Shinmera: This channel is about CL, so you're most likely gonna get a one-sided impression for that.
2014-12-07T22:35:41Z wasamasa: or ##programming or whatever other place
2014-12-07T22:36:30Z Big_G: Thanks. I'm still new to the field of PL so I thought I'd get some opinions
2014-12-07T22:37:39Z Posterdati: Xach: I updated the source...
2014-12-07T22:37:54Z wasamasa: Big_G: learn all kinds of programming languages then, choice doesn't matter that much
2014-12-07T22:38:01Z Shinmera: I personally haven't used Clojure, but I don't see any reason to try it aside from "there's more job offers for it"
2014-12-07T22:38:10Z wasamasa: Big_G: on #lisp we of course pretend common lisp is the best
2014-12-07T22:38:39Z Shinmera: So I'm happily gonna continue doing my work in CL.
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2014-12-07T22:39:09Z Big_G: I quite like CL from what I've seen of it. However, money is nice to have
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2014-12-07T22:40:11Z adlai: does writing financial software in CL count?
2014-12-07T22:40:39Z Big_G: That actually doesn't sound too bad. Let me know if you're hiring
2014-12-07T22:41:37Z adlai: right this way -> https://github.com/adlai/scalpl/fork
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2014-12-07T22:45:56Z adlai: last I checked, QPX is still CL, and Google maintains https://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml
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2014-12-07T22:49:26Z Posterdati: Xach: I'd like to add support for my netlist type to gEDA, but they used scheme for scripting...
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2014-12-07T22:54:23Z schjetne: adlai: how should that XML file be viewed?
2014-12-07T22:55:48Z Posterdati: Xach: I wrote a document, with lyx, to exaplain the theory behind the program, that it is based on euler modified iteration applied to a system of DAEs
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2014-12-07T22:56:53Z adlai: schjetne: my browser works some magic from <?xml-stylesheet type="text/xsl" href="styleguide.xsl"?>, causing it to look like a normal webpage
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2014-12-07T22:56:59Z Posterdati: Xach: the program simply construct the matrices starting from a netlist (described as sexps)
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2014-12-07T22:57:36Z schjetne: adlai: which browser is that?
2014-12-07T22:57:53Z petrutrimbitas: http://ideone.com/4cTbBC  why do I receive an error  ?
2014-12-07T22:58:25Z adlai: schjetne: chromium 38.0.2125.111
2014-12-07T22:58:48Z schjetne: I'll see if I can try a webkit browser
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2014-12-07T22:59:09Z schjetne: I only have Firefox installed at the moment
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2014-12-07T23:00:25Z marioxcc: Hello.
2014-12-07T23:00:46Z marioxcc: Does the standard library provides a standard way to split strings on a delimiter?
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2014-12-07T23:02:02Z adlai: http://quickdocs.org/split-sequence/
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2014-12-07T23:02:22Z adlai: for sufficiently quick values of "standard"
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2014-12-07T23:02:37Z marioxcc: Ok.
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2014-12-07T23:03:48Z Shinmera: cl-ppcre also has a SPLIT function
2014-12-07T23:04:08Z adlai: jasom: "I find I'm the dumbest person in the room" < but those are the best rooms to be in!
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2014-12-07T23:08:52Z marioxcc: adlai: Does it has a license? I can't find anything in the split-sequence-1.1.tgz tarball.
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2014-12-07T23:09:38Z adlai: https://github.com/sharplispers/split-sequence/blob/master/split-sequence.asd#L8
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2014-12-07T23:11:02Z Posterdati: Xach: anyway gsll rocks!
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2014-12-07T23:12:18Z marioxcc: adlai: I doubt that a code line that says that the library is in the public domain is a valid legal public domain dedicatory.
2014-12-07T23:12:55Z adlai: what about https://github.com/adlai/scalpl#legal-ease ?
2014-12-07T23:13:00Z |3b|: petrutrimbitas: try (trace inorder) and calling it again, and see if that shows you what values are passed in the recursive calls, and see if they look right
2014-12-07T23:14:31Z marioxcc: adlai: It's the same, "Devoid of license" doesn't put it in the public domain.
2014-12-07T23:14:45Z petrutrimbitas: thanks, didn’t know about trace
2014-12-07T23:15:17Z marioxcc: All on the contrary, it means that I have no rights to use it, or distribute it, and can't be part of a free software package. I suggest to contact the maintainers to put a proper licensing on that library, maybe I will do that sometime.
2014-12-07T23:15:40Z petrutrimbitas: I have something like this:  (setq root (car tree)) and then tree changes, how do I save the initial value of (car tree) ? thanks ?
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2014-12-07T23:17:10Z adlai suspects the intent behind both of these "licenses" is simply to convey that what anybody does with a bunch of bits is their business alone
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2014-12-07T23:35:20Z Xach: Posterdati: did you check your .svn files into git?
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2014-12-07T23:35:43Z Posterdati: I changed for git
2014-12-07T23:35:52Z Xach: Posterdati: did you check your .svn directories into git?
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2014-12-07T23:36:41Z Posterdati: no I did a new branch pushing my local repo
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2014-12-07T23:39:24Z drmeister: How would I debug SWANK on a new Common Lisp implementation?   I'd like to disable the handler-case and restarts that mask errors in my clasp.lisp swank code.
2014-12-07T23:39:46Z Xach: Posterdati: ok. there are a bunch of directories named ".svn" in the checkout.
2014-12-07T23:39:56Z Xach: Well, two.
2014-12-07T23:39:58Z Posterdati: strange
2014-12-07T23:40:10Z Posterdati: I removed them, let me checl
2014-12-07T23:40:12Z Posterdati: I removed them, let me check
2014-12-07T23:40:36Z schjetne: adlai: why not add a license that says that with legal certainty? It's no more work than a simple copy and paste.
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2014-12-07T23:42:33Z adlai: delusions of making some statement about the futility/absurdity of "IP"
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2014-12-07T23:44:35Z Posterdati: Xach: should be ok now
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2014-12-07T23:45:25Z Posterdati: Xach:  use this to run the simulation: (solve-problem #p"examples/test_1ph_fault_02.net" 0d0 0.4d0 10000 :progress-bar :t)
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2014-12-07T23:46:14Z Posterdati: open the relative .sim file using kst or similar
2014-12-07T23:50:08Z drmeister: And swank redirects *standard-input* and *standard-output*
2014-12-07T23:51:07Z stacksmith: petrutrimbitas, maybe something like (let ((oldval (car tree))) (setq root (car tree) ...)
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2014-12-07T23:58:23Z stacksmith: petrutrimbitas, or better yet, use shiftf
2014-12-07T23:58:34Z petrutrimbitas: i’ve figured it out
2014-12-07T23:58:38Z petrutrimbitas: thanks :)