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2014-12-02T00:08:02Z DeadTrickster: oh iolib and ssl...openssl, rrright?
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2014-12-02T00:35:47Z zRecursive: I just got a mail with "-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----***".  Why can i view its contents without its public key ?
2014-12-02T00:36:11Z jasom: zRecursive: it's signed, not encrypted; also off-topic
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2014-12-02T00:36:52Z zRecursive: thanks
2014-12-02T00:38:17Z jasom: With a git checkout of cffi, I get an error here: https://github.com/markcox80/basic-binary-ipc/blob/master/src/posix-grovel.lisp#L81
2014-12-02T00:38:27Z jasom: is it not kosher to use typedefs as the base type for an enum?
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2014-12-02T00:39:40Z pillton: Are you using CFFI from git?
2014-12-02T00:41:03Z jasom: pillton: yes
2014-12-02T00:41:09Z pillton: Ah. The patch I wrote for https://bugs.launchpad.net/cffi/+bug/1395242 broke that support.
2014-12-02T00:41:18Z pillton: I did it unintentionally.
2014-12-02T00:41:26Z pillton: I have started the new patch.
2014-12-02T00:41:46Z pillton: That fixes the issue in the bug and restores the old functionality.
2014-12-02T00:42:19Z pillton: I have to see what the maintainers think.
2014-12-02T00:42:24Z jasom: okay; somewhat ironic that you broke that ;)
2014-12-02T00:43:13Z jasom: I'll reverse b939ecd and test; I was wanting to test basic-binary-ipc with the improved bitfield compiler macro
2014-12-02T00:44:28Z pillton: Yeah. Sorry about that.
2014-12-02T00:44:31Z Xach: Hmm, I thought there were some projects failing due to implicit sb-introspect but I can't find any of them now.
2014-12-02T00:44:45Z Xach: I did find some failures due to implicit sb-bsd-sockets in ltk-remote and telnetlib.
2014-12-02T00:44:48Z Xach: d'oh
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2014-12-02T00:46:36Z Xach: d'oh, i see why
2014-12-02T00:46:38Z jasom: pillton: no problem; good news is that the improved bitfield compiler macro speeds up the woo benchmark by about 25% on basic-binary-ipc
2014-12-02T00:46:55Z pillton: That is great.
2014-12-02T00:47:31Z jasom had originally hacked around it by adding a #. to the place that was hurting the most
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2014-12-02T02:48:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-12-02T02:54:14Z phadthai: beach: good evening
2014-12-02T02:56:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is actually 7:56 Mountain Freedom Time
2014-12-02T02:56:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: *PM
2014-12-02T03:01:12Z zRecursive: howdy
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2014-12-02T03:07:05Z Devon: Hmm, at http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant ... since 2009 ... support not complete ...
2014-12-02T03:08:21Z Devon: anyone have a fave persistent object ...
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2014-12-02T03:09:42Z ivan4th: tried https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver ... it does some terrible things like trying to snatch its socket from wookie web server using internal cl-async stuff. And doesn't work with newer cl-async (uv). Seems I'll have to make cl-async port of |3b|'s clws after all
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2014-12-02T03:12:36Z ivan4th: https://github.com/fukamachi/websocket-driver/blob/master/src/driver/base.lisp#L191 maybe it's just me but I usually try to send some pull requests to the author of library I'm using in such cases...
2014-12-02T03:12:42Z ivan4th: And if that's impossible/doesn't help I write a long comment on why there are such, well, dragons in my code
2014-12-02T03:13:17Z ivan4th: so @export thing is not the worst part after all... :(
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2014-12-02T03:30:40Z ivan4th: (didn't mean to offend anyone, perhaps websocket-driver is just some experimental code so it's all ok, but I'll have to use clws)
2014-12-02T03:30:54Z PuercoPop: btw ivan4th may I ask what is your workflow for adefun/alet/etc in the REPL? I have the boilerplate event-loop in the scratch buffer but I've been thinking of integrating an event loop in swank(slynk in my case).
2014-12-02T03:33:07Z ivan4th: I use cl-async-repl (recently contributed by me to uv branch of cl-async) and just print stuff somewhere down the promise chain (note: cl-async-future was replaced with blackbird in which futures are now called promises and API is currently somewhat modelled after js promise APIs)
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2014-12-02T03:34:20Z ivan4th: concerning coming blackbird api changes see https://github.com/orthecreedence/blackbird/issues/2
2014-12-02T03:35:15Z ivan4th: here's repl integration code in uv branch (cl-async-repl system): https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async/blob/uv/repl.lisp
2014-12-02T03:35:21Z PuercoPop: I'll look into it, hadn't seen it. Thanks!
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2014-12-02T03:35:46Z ivan4th: (the code could be made a bit more clean if I didn't forget about PROGV when I wrote it)
2014-12-02T03:37:24Z pillton: Good morning beach.
2014-12-02T03:41:32Z beach: Devon: You might look at Clobber.  It's very simple.
2014-12-02T03:42:07Z beach: Devon: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber
2014-12-02T03:42:59Z ivan4th: PuercoPop: also note that cl-async-repl needs (slime-require :swank-listener-hooks) in Emacs. listener hooks broke in SLIME during late September, but they're fixed in current SLIME master branch (and fresh SLIME release 2.11)
2014-12-02T03:44:29Z beach: I wonder what happened to nyef.  I am counting on him (and others) to give me feedback on my ideas.
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2014-12-02T03:47:42Z ivan4th: BTW (approximately) object prevalence is currently called Event Sourcing in non-lisp world
2014-12-02T03:48:00Z ivan4th: there's also thing called CQRS
2014-12-02T03:48:04Z beach: Good to know.  Thanks.
2014-12-02T03:49:34Z ivan4th: one of possible schemes: you have commands like add-customer. when the command executes it's validated against the current state of the system and produces one or more events like customer-added which blindly mutate the state
2014-12-02T03:49:54Z ivan4th: you need only to replay the events (not commands) to get the system in the necessary state
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2014-12-02T03:50:23Z ivan4th: moreover, you may send events to other observers such as one recording stuff in an SQL database for easier queries
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2014-12-02T03:51:18Z ivan4th: (you know, sometimes SQL is more convenient than accessing your own in-memory structures, e.g. when there's another guy who writes complex SQL queries for customers' varying needs)
2014-12-02T03:52:44Z ivan4th: also, there can be multiple db observers with multiple databases for the purpose of read-only access scalability
2014-12-02T03:52:54Z beach: ivan4th: I have had this discussion (SQL, ...) in the past with others, so I am not going to have it again.  It is very interesting, but I am busy with other stuff right now.
2014-12-02T03:53:14Z beach: ivan4th: Feel free to discuss it with other #lisp participants, though.
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2014-12-02T03:55:09Z ivan4th: well, that not so much about SQL as about possible extension of object prevalence-like schemes. I plan to use one soon. But what actually bothers me is snapshot thing, I'm afraid that replaying the whole log may take a long time... (no, SQL doesn't have anything to do with this)
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2014-12-02T03:59:20Z ivan4th: (while having snapshots may make snapshot upgrade necessary which is ugly)
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2014-12-02T04:02:34Z beach: ivan4th: Against better judgment, I am going to day this again: replaying the whole log is done only after a crash when the system is restarted.  I am convinced that you can load a log with tenths of millions transactions in a a matter of seconds, which is totally acceptable for many systems.  Now, there are about 31 million seconds in a year, so if you do one transaction per second for a year, the log will take a few seconds to lo
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2014-12-02T04:02:46Z beach: ivan4th: And I am not saying this is always acceptable.
2014-12-02T04:02:53Z beach: I am just saying that there are many systems for which it is.
2014-12-02T04:03:01Z beach: And Clobber targets such systems.
2014-12-02T04:03:06Z beach: Not the others.
2014-12-02T04:03:46Z beach: Take an accounting system for a medium-sized company as an example.
2014-12-02T04:04:29Z beach: There is not going to be one transaction per second.  More like one transaction per minute if even that much.
2014-12-02T04:04:52Z beach: This means you can work for 60 years in order to get a log with 30 million entries.
2014-12-02T04:05:13Z beach: After a crash of such a system, it might take a few seconds to restart.
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2014-12-02T04:05:30Z beach: This is orders of magnitude less than it takes for the sysadmin to reboot the computer.
2014-12-02T04:05:39Z ivan4th: well, in my case the system is represented by complex interconnected graph of users/groups/documents/etc. tried to load the database of the predecessor system into RAM just to have some very rough measure, sbcl grew to 3.5 Gb which is ok but may take a while to recreate from several years worth of transactions
2014-12-02T04:05:40Z beach: Again, not saying it is always acceptable.
2014-12-02T04:05:58Z beach: I am just saying that in MANY cases it is, and Clobber is targeting ONLY those systems.
2014-12-02T04:06:14Z beach: ivan4th: Then Clobber is not for you.
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2014-12-02T04:06:16Z beach: Sorry.
2014-12-02T04:06:36Z beach: Clobber is targeting only systems that fulfill the requirements I mentioned above.
2014-12-02T04:06:49Z ivan4th: beach: indeed, seems like to be the case. So, will have to do snapshots somehow
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2014-12-02T04:15:35Z ivan4th: with an apology to anyone allergic to SQL-related discussion, I must say that the principle described above (based on translation of commands to events with Reporting Database as separate event listener) eschews the necessity of ORMs - only very dumb event->sql translator is needed, plus some equally dumb query layer.
2014-12-02T04:15:46Z ivan4th: SQL data is never used by the business logic core
2014-12-02T04:16:09Z Zhivago: As ORMs are a terrible idea ... :)
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2014-12-02T04:16:52Z Zhivago: Dealing with these things as listeners to an event stream is generally the right thing to do. The only tricky part is log consolidation.
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2014-12-02T04:17:40Z ivan4th: well, there must be a notion of strict event sequence
2014-12-02T04:17:54Z ivan4th: database layer must process events according to this sequence, too
2014-12-02T04:17:56Z Zhivago: Each listener should be able to receive an event which causes them to emit an event that encapsulates their current state.
2014-12-02T04:18:48Z Zhivago: Well, ideally events should be incremental, and composible in any order.
2014-12-02T04:19:23Z ivan4th: well, not quite. if you have the full sequence of events you may send it to the business logic core and it will recreate itself in the state that corresponds to the end of the sequence. the same is true for db layer: you start with empty db and just replay events which are converted to inserts/deletes/updates
2014-12-02T04:19:51Z Zhivago: Yes, but the gets increasingly expensive over time.
2014-12-02T04:20:08Z Zhivago: So you want some way to consolidate the current state in order to commit the journal.
2014-12-02T04:20:25Z ivan4th: the ugly part is that one will need to make db backups along with snapshots of current state I think
2014-12-02T04:20:37Z Zhivago: If your consolidated state is represented as events, then you still just replay the log.
2014-12-02T04:21:03Z Zhivago: It's just that instead of ten million incremental changes you reduce it down to one incremental change.
2014-12-02T04:21:12Z ivan4th: that's indeed an interesting idea
2014-12-02T04:22:12Z Zhivago: With timestamps, it often isn't that hard -- things like 'pick the latest value' become easy.
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2014-12-02T04:24:20Z ivan4th: so you mean that state-encapsulating events may be used to represent snapshots?
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2014-12-02T04:25:57Z ivan4th: the problem is that one must try hard not to change what each event does as such changes may require the migration/translation of the whole log. for events that encapsulate the state, this also may mean the need to update the serialized representation...
2014-12-02T04:28:43Z ivan4th: still thinking about relatively painless way to cope with this. e.g. I'm removing some functionality from my app, but events that utilized it are still in the log and there are other events that reference stuff related to the removed code
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2014-12-02T04:33:17Z Zhivago: Well, you obviously don't change what events do.
2014-12-02T04:33:33Z Zhivago: Just make new events and deprecate old once you've consolidated them out.
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2014-12-02T04:39:15Z ivan4th: yes, not changing what events do is the correct way to handle it
2014-12-02T04:40:24Z ivan4th: BTW, another interesting idea: if you make app's frontend receive events too (e.g. via web sockets etc.) you may get Google Docs-like experience in places like user admin interface
2014-12-02T04:40:48Z ivan4th: (minus operational transformations thing for text data of course)
2014-12-02T04:43:27Z ivan4th: but of course not every event should be forwarded to client UI or there'll be some serious security & performance problems
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2014-12-02T04:48:43Z ivan4th: this is supposed to work as follows: the admin clicks 'deactivate' button in user properties. 'deactivate-user' command is sent to the server. the server validates the command and generates 'user-deactivated' event which mutates the state
2014-12-02T04:49:16Z ivan4th: the event is also received by the database which updates stuff used for querying user lists, info, statistics and so on
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2014-12-02T04:49:33Z ivan4th: and by frontend again which changes user state to 'inactive'
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2014-12-02T04:49:56Z ivan4th: if any other admin happens to be looking at the same user, he/she will see the user account change, too
2014-12-02T04:50:45Z ivan4th: without even reloading the page
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2014-12-02T05:58:39Z pjb: Xach: about package prefixes, I'd even go so far as to say that you shouldn't put IN-PACKAGE forms in files, so that you can load them in different packages (therefore with different language/macros).
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2014-12-02T06:02:12Z Bike: it would be kind of nice to be able to just specify *package* in the asd or something.
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2014-12-02T06:07:38Z pjb: beach: playing logs back would have taken much more time on an IBM 360 in the days, than on a PC of 2014  :-)
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2014-12-02T06:10:19Z beach: pjb: It's good I didn't write Clobber back then.
2014-12-02T06:11:12Z beach: pjb: I have now made up my mind about IN-PACKAGE.  With first-class global environments, it is no longer necessary to play tricks with the package system, so I now feel confident I can put in those IN-PACKAGE forms everywhere.
2014-12-02T06:12:32Z beach: I am working on bootstrapping at the moment, and it is fantastic what first-class global environments let me do.  I keep repeating this (sorry), but I am *so* surprised myself.
2014-12-02T06:12:55Z pjb: My point is for normal programs. If you write then in declarative form (and after all, defun declares something), you can load them in different environments with different definitions for the macros to do different things.
2014-12-02T06:13:36Z beach: pjb: I know your point, and with first-class global environments, you can load them in a different environment without changing the package of the symbols.
2014-12-02T06:13:59Z pjb: beach: two examples: you can load them to compile them to run, or load them to analyse them to find bug.  I have a html4.lisp file that I load with one set of macros definitions to generate a HTML4 parser, and another to generate a HTML4 generator.
2014-12-02T06:14:20Z pjb: beach: Right. And for documentation generation purposes, it may even be easier to do with first-class environments indeed.
2014-12-02T06:15:58Z beach: Now, the real neat trick here, is that I am now able to create a SICL-like system using first-class global environments inside a host system such as SBCL, so I don't even need a host system that has first-class global environments.
2014-12-02T06:16:34Z beach: So, you can no longer use the excuse "but my Common Lisp system does not support first-class global environments!" :)
2014-12-02T06:16:39Z pjb: That's nice :-)
2014-12-02T06:16:59Z pjb: Indeed worth of a presentation at ELS.
2014-12-02T06:17:10Z beach: Thanks.  I believe so.
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2014-12-02T07:03:51Z loke: It's funny how beach said "first-class global environments" in every single sentence for an entire conversation. :-)
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2014-12-02T07:08:00Z Zhivago: Are they actually first class? :)
2014-12-02T07:08:47Z Zhivago: But it is a fairly big deal, and a significant historical lack in CL.
2014-12-02T07:09:00Z jasom: I don't just want first-class global environments, I want the one with specially prepared meals and lie-flat beds
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2014-12-02T09:04:05Z splittist: I guess referring to first-class global environments as 'patricienvs' (puh-trish-envs) is too obscure. And silly, of course.
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2014-12-02T09:06:01Z loke: If you say it around 8 times in the scope of a couple of minues, I'd probably shorten it to FCGE's
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2014-12-02T10:24:57Z alpha-: is http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ considered a good book?
2014-12-02T10:25:48Z splittist: alpha-: yes, indeed.
2014-12-02T10:30:24Z Shinmera: It is considered dead sexy.
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2014-12-02T10:33:29Z alpha-: it's pretty bad imo
2014-12-02T10:33:44Z Shinmera: How so?
2014-12-02T10:33:51Z alpha-: I've read chapter 19 three times now and I still don't get how to use that
2014-12-02T10:34:04Z alpha-: no real example code
2014-12-02T10:34:14Z alpha-: only some make-beleive examples with "..."
2014-12-02T10:34:17Z Shinmera: The example he gave seemed pretty real and useful to me.
2014-12-02T10:35:13Z alpha-: yes, yes, really real and useful (make-instance 'log-entry ...)
2014-12-02T10:35:24Z alpha-: whatever
2014-12-02T10:35:25Z Shinmera: You should know what that means by now
2014-12-02T10:35:31Z Shinmera: And he only abbreviates that part
2014-12-02T10:35:47Z Shinmera: which is completely beside the point of the chapter
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2014-12-02T10:36:00Z Shinmera: So it makes sense not to make that specific.
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2014-12-02T10:37:21Z Shinmera: The point is to illustrate how conditions and restarts help in making a more useful program flow. What kind of slots the object in this example has is completely irrelevant.
2014-12-02T10:38:55Z Shinmera: Maybe you can describe what it is you're having difficulty understanding rather than saying the book is bad for excluding needless details?
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2014-12-02T10:46:37Z alpha-: Shinmera why does he have an example of handler-case embedded in a loop "for entry = (handler-case (parse-log-entry text)" and then later at the end he switches to handler-bind at the top of defun log-analyzer "(defun log-analyzer () (handler-bind ..."
2014-12-02T10:46:51Z alpha-: which is the proper way then?
2014-12-02T10:46:57Z alpha-: I am lost here
2014-12-02T10:47:51Z Shinmera: handler-case catches the condition and unwinds the stack to the condition handler.
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2014-12-02T10:48:41Z Shinmera: handler-bind on the other hand does not unwind the stack, which means you can invoke restarts that unwind the stack less than to where the handler-bind form is.
2014-12-02T10:49:13Z Shinmera: the proper way is whatever is useful to your specific case.
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2014-12-02T10:49:25Z Shinmera: If you want to invoke restarts, you'll probably want to use handler-bind
2014-12-02T10:49:40Z Shinmera: If you just want to handle the error and exit or restart completely: handler-case
2014-12-02T10:50:24Z Shinmera: I can write you a more minimal example that illustrates what they do if you want, but I have to leave soon so I can only get back to you with that later.
2014-12-02T10:50:36Z Grue`: basically handler-bind is harder to use, but it's more general. usually you'd use hander-case unless you really need what handler-bind offers
2014-12-02T10:52:29Z Shinmera: I wouldn't say "harder to use"
2014-12-02T10:52:32Z Shinmera: it just works differently.
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2014-12-02T11:11:23Z Cymew: alpha-: I must confess it was a long time since I read that chapter, but maybe this video http://vimeo.com/21221157 can add something? I find that part of CL is a bit hard to wrap your head around, and I usually need more than one take on it.
2014-12-02T11:11:50Z alpha-: will look Cymew, ty
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2014-12-02T11:17:10Z Cymew: This http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html paper by KMP might also be of interest, even though it's more historical and why it works like it does than how.
2014-12-02T11:18:01Z Cymew: Reminds me I have a print out of that which I had planned to re-read one day
2014-12-02T11:18:42Z DeadTrickster: clsql-mysql anyone?
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2014-12-02T12:03:49Z Xach: DeadTrickster: again?
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2014-12-02T12:19:06Z DeadTrickster: Xach, lots of 'Lost connection during query :-\, dunno what to do
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2014-12-02T12:26:02Z DeadTrickster: funny thing is we have php & erlang code that works smoothly, tcpdump shows that response received. very strange things happening
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2014-12-02T12:29:41Z DeadTrickster: I fixed all? threading-related issues in clsql-mysql this made everything more stable but sometimes the same code works only after 5 or 6 retries
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2014-12-02T12:47:16Z Xach: Unfortunately, some of these sbcl-contrib-related failures are in projects that are widely used but apparently unmaintained
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2014-12-02T12:47:55Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: which ones ?
2014-12-02T12:47:57Z Shinmera: I guess someone should fork then, though that's not a nice solution.
2014-12-02T12:48:04Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: log4cl
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2014-12-02T12:48:34Z ivan4th: ok, github.com is indeed blocked in Russia starting from today. my isp didn't update its blacklist yet though. :(
2014-12-02T12:48:46Z H4ns: :(
2014-12-02T12:48:55Z Xach: ivan4th: ow
2014-12-02T12:49:04Z Shinmera: Wow
2014-12-02T12:49:44Z ivan4th: here's related facebook post by the censorship body: https://www.facebook.com/roskomnadzor.official/photos/a.1485309358414507.1073741828.1460928964185880/1509335822678527/
2014-12-02T12:49:52Z eudoxia: Xach: doesn't the sharplispers project exist for that kind of projects?
2014-12-02T12:50:02Z Xach: eudoxia: it does. kind of last-resorty.
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2014-12-02T12:51:18Z ivan4th: they block a very important resources and post stupid pictures while bragging about it. they're crazy
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2014-12-02T12:53:26Z Shinmera: ivan4th: :(
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2014-12-02T12:57:32Z Cymew: What's the point of censoring github?
2014-12-02T12:58:27Z Krystof: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8401784
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2014-12-02T12:59:09Z hitecnologys: That was like ages ago. Now they're doing Vimeo.
2014-12-02T12:59:32Z hitecnologys: And that is also off topic, no matter how interesting that is.
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2014-12-02T13:00:15Z ggole: Yikes.
2014-12-02T13:00:20Z ggole: Echoes of the future, right there.
2014-12-02T13:00:55Z alpha-: clhs.lisp.se down for everyone?
2014-12-02T13:01:23Z ivan4th: Cymew: there's no point. they kind of trying to protect children from information concerning drugs & suicide.
2014-12-02T13:01:39Z ivan4th: so someone puts old fidonet joke file suicide.txt in a repo
2014-12-02T13:01:44Z ivan4th: and github gets blocked
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2014-12-02T13:02:05Z Cymew: I wont comment further, since it's off topic. Saddens me, though.
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2014-12-02T13:02:30Z Cymew: alpha-: Works fine from here in Stockholm
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2014-12-02T13:03:08Z eudoxia: alpha-: down for me as well
2014-12-02T13:03:15Z alpha-: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/clhs.lisp.se It's not just you! http://clhs.lisp.se looks down from here.
2014-12-02T13:03:15Z alpha-: :/
2014-12-02T13:04:36Z Cymew: Hmm. Looks like nothing except the first page works, though
2014-12-02T13:05:23Z Shinmera: What does that page do?
2014-12-02T13:06:30Z Shinmera: Is it a redirect service or?
2014-12-02T13:06:34Z Xach: It's a copy of the clhs
2014-12-02T13:06:46Z Shinmera: Ah, ok.
2014-12-02T13:06:52Z Xach: I'm not sure why someone would use it instead of the lispworks version, but it's been around for a long time.
2014-12-02T13:07:05Z Shinmera: Seems to come up higher up in google
2014-12-02T13:07:16Z Cymew: I didn't even know of it
2014-12-02T13:07:21Z eudoxia: the clhs desperately needs a facelift
2014-12-02T13:07:27Z Shinmera: Can't
2014-12-02T13:07:41Z Xach: You could make something new based on the dpans.
2014-12-02T13:07:53Z eudoxia: one of my side-side-side-side projects is a parser for the TeX draft sources, to make a better HTML version
2014-12-02T13:07:53Z Xach: That is what Franz did. Their version is more stylish.
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2014-12-02T13:14:11Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: do you have a build log for log4cl ?
2014-12-02T13:14:19Z fe[nl]ix: I have no problems compiling it
2014-12-02T13:14:43Z eudoxia: you wouldn't, the problem is an implicit dep. in sb-posix
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2014-12-02T13:15:22Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: if you compile it with sb-posix absent, it fails.
2014-12-02T13:15:31Z Xach: An unusual circumstance, but there it is.
2014-12-02T13:15:37Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-12-02T13:15:41Z Xach has set mode +b *!*cosita@213.143.50.*
2014-12-02T13:15:46Z ukooo [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (spammer of the day)
2014-12-02T13:15:48Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
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2014-12-02T13:17:25Z fe[nl]ix: oh
2014-12-02T13:17:33Z fe[nl]ix: but why would sb-posix be absent ?
2014-12-02T13:18:03Z Shinmera: If you have a bare system with only ASDF it would be
2014-12-02T13:18:14Z Shinmera: for example when building a binary.
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2014-12-02T13:26:07Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: It is unlikely but not impossible for it to be absent.
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2014-12-02T13:26:53Z Xach: If things can't be updated in a timely way, I'll go back to the old build for a while. It preloaded certain sbcl contribs.
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2014-12-02T13:50:53Z lavokad: all defuns, defvars and etc are hoisted on the top of the source code? I mean you can use them before their declaration appear in the source code?
2014-12-02T13:51:50Z H4ns: lavokad: functions yes, special variables no.
2014-12-02T13:52:12Z lavokad: special variables?
2014-12-02T13:52:21Z lavokad:  
2014-12-02T13:52:22Z lavokad: (format t "lala ~d" a)
2014-12-02T13:52:22Z lavokad: (defvar a 9)
2014-12-02T13:52:24Z lavokad: this works
2014-12-02T13:52:45Z H4ns: lavokad: what do you mean by "works"?
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2014-12-02T13:57:27Z lavokad: it prints
2014-12-02T13:57:27Z lavokad: a
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2014-12-02T13:57:35Z lavokad: before a is defined
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2014-12-02T13:58:07Z H4ns: no, it throws an "unbound variable" error
2014-12-02T13:58:33Z H4ns: try putting those two lines into a file and then load it with a freshly started sbcl.
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2014-12-02T13:58:50Z H4ns: of course, if you first define the special variable in the repl and then load the file, things will work just fine.
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2014-12-02T14:05:26Z lavokad: H4ns, sorry, accidentally 'a' was defined in the repl earlier so I didnt get the error
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2014-12-02T14:09:14Z zickzackv:  /debug tags
2014-12-02T14:09:23Z zickzackv: ups
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2014-12-02T14:11:39Z lg188: Hey, where can I found out about the built-in functions of sbcl?
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2014-12-02T14:13:05Z Xach: lg188: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/
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2014-12-02T14:14:07Z Grue`: (apropos "something" :sb-ext) can also help
2014-12-02T14:14:25Z Grue`: or :sb-whatever
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2014-12-02T14:18:13Z lg188: mhm
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2014-12-02T14:33:38Z Xach updates log4cl on sharplispers for now
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2014-12-02T14:49:10Z lavokad: why does (m) hangs, where m is (defmacro m () 7) ?
2014-12-02T14:50:35Z Xach: lavokad: your environment is configured strangely. it doesn't hang for me.
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2014-12-02T14:50:59Z ggole: Look at the expansion of (m)?
2014-12-02T14:51:02Z Shinmera: Space time tears.
2014-12-02T14:51:03Z lavokad: uff, that's good then :)
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2014-12-02T14:59:04Z Grue`: it crashes because one letter variable names are bad ;)
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2014-12-02T15:23:39Z adlai: one letter variable names cause the programmer to hang!
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2014-12-02T15:33:14Z pjb: -
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2014-12-02T15:34:33Z ggole: Not a letter - nice workaround :)
2014-12-02T15:35:59Z adlai: aka "the second-shortest self-reproducing program"
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2014-12-02T15:40:23Z Shinmera: adlai: Tell that to my instructors who write the Matlab exercises. Everything one or two letter names.
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2014-12-02T15:41:06Z adlai: /= programmer instructor
2014-12-02T15:41:26Z adlai: not that the overlap doesn't exist! but they're not ↔
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2014-12-02T15:46:50Z eudoxia: that moment when you translate an algorithm from pseudocode to common lisp and forget you can't use t as a variable
2014-12-02T15:47:37Z pjb: You can.
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2014-12-02T15:47:59Z pjb: (shadow 't) (let ((t '(42 second))) (compute-velocity t))
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2014-12-02T15:51:26Z ggole: Spell it 'tee'
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2014-12-02T15:51:34Z pjb: time
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2014-12-02T15:51:57Z eudoxia: i usually expand the names, t -> time etc.
2014-12-02T15:52:11Z eudoxia: not before SBCL throwing an error though :>
2014-12-02T15:52:32Z Shinmera: call it t.
2014-12-02T15:52:42Z Shinmera: Because introducing punctuation is obviously a good idea
2014-12-02T15:53:13Z pjb: Ор усе τ ор т
2014-12-02T15:53:24Z pjb: or use τ or т
2014-12-02T15:53:52Z pjb: For a local variable, nobody should object.
2014-12-02T15:53:52Z Xach: you can't easily use primes
2014-12-02T15:54:06Z Xach: i suppose you could use a unicode prime-alike and make everyone unhappy
2014-12-02T15:54:11Z pjb: 't´
2014-12-02T15:55:06Z pjb: ?´ -> 180 ; no need to go unicode, just iso-8859-1.
2014-12-02T15:55:20Z pjb: (it should even work in 8-bit implementations).
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2014-12-02T16:25:53Z adlai: would anybody else expect CL-PPCRE:DO-REGISTER-GROUPS to still have the var-list bindings visible during the evaluation of result-form?
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2014-12-02T16:26:22Z adlai: which is the way CL:DO et al work
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2014-12-02T16:33:02Z Shinmera: https://twitter.com/els2015/status/539819266615558144
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2014-12-02T16:42:24Z dim: what's the trick to force entering the debugger on any signal?
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2014-12-02T16:43:07Z Shinmera: bind *break-on-signals* to T
2014-12-02T16:43:11Z dim: thx
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2014-12-02T16:43:23Z Shinmera: It's gonna be very noisy usually though!
2014-12-02T16:43:47Z Shinmera: (me tried to figure out an incomprehensible ASDF condition that way)
2014-12-02T16:43:50Z Shinmera: */me
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2014-12-02T16:44:11Z dim: mmm the error has been handled before that thing gets control apparently
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2014-12-02T16:45:16Z Shinmera: Are you sure an error get signalled at all?
2014-12-02T16:45:41Z Shinmera: *gets
2014-12-02T16:46:04Z Xach: I used (trace foo :break t) for the first time yesterday.
2014-12-02T16:46:10Z Xach: I don't know why it took me so long. It helped me a ton.
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2014-12-02T16:47:21Z Shinmera: I don't see a :break option in the clhs for trace?
2014-12-02T16:48:06Z Xach: It is an SBCL extension.
2014-12-02T16:48:16Z fe[nl]ix: dim: alternatively, you can bind *break-on-signals* to a more restricted type specifier
2014-12-02T16:48:17Z Shinmera: Ah, alright. Yes I see the note about extra options now
2014-12-02T16:48:20Z fe[nl]ix: you can even use compound type specifiers
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2014-12-02T16:59:35Z adlai used quickproject for the first time just now, thank you Xach !
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2014-12-02T17:01:25Z theseb: is the ONLY difference between dynamic and lexical scoping that for lexical the lambda functions drag around the environment at the time of creation?
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2014-12-02T17:01:57Z Xach: adlai: glad it's useful to you
2014-12-02T17:02:05Z Xach: theseb: no.
2014-12-02T17:02:28Z Xach: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node43.html has some good info.
2014-12-02T17:02:28Z adlai: it's totally useless in comparison to quicklisp and quickdocs :)
2014-12-02T17:02:55Z Xach is glad someone (else) made quickdocs, which is great
2014-12-02T17:02:58Z pjb: theseb: lexical = spacial; dynamic = temporal.
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2014-12-02T17:04:46Z pjb: theseb: notice that if you evaluate several time the same function form, then it is not specified whether you get the same closure or not.
2014-12-02T17:04:50Z pjb: clhs function
2014-12-02T17:04:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
2014-12-02T17:05:02Z pjb: theseb: that's because lexical = space.
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2014-12-02T17:08:16Z clop: is quicklisp built into sbcl now?
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2014-12-02T17:08:50Z pjb: clop: try it. Download sbcl on a virgin system and see if (ql:quickload :alexandria) works.
2014-12-02T17:09:51Z clop: aah, i think it was just something in my old .sbclrc file
2014-12-02T17:10:43Z pjb: theseb: that said, it is correct that closures enclose only lexical bindings, not dynamic bindings.  Dynamic bindings escape thru the 4th dimension (time).
2014-12-02T17:10:48Z Xach: clop: no
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2014-12-02T17:18:11Z clop: thanks guys
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2014-12-02T17:51:23Z jweiss: I am trying to start slime, I get "Invalid protocol message: Symbol "CREATE-REPL" not found in the SWANK package.". this was working before, I am not sure what broke. something on the swank side but I have no idea what emacs does to start that process.
2014-12-02T17:52:37Z Xach: jweiss: that can happen when emacs and common lisp aren't loading components from the same (or very similar) versions of slime.
2014-12-02T17:52:59Z Xach: jweiss: do you have more than one swank.lisp installed on your system?
2014-12-02T17:53:54Z jweiss: Xach: where would I look?  I don't remember how swank even got onto my system
2014-12-02T17:54:01Z jweiss: but obviously it did somehow
2014-12-02T17:54:23Z Xach: jweiss: are you using unix? usually something like "locate swank.lisp" offers some stuff.
2014-12-02T17:54:27Z jweiss:  loading #P"/home/jweiss/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-20131003-cvs/swank-loader.lisp"
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2014-12-02T17:54:42Z Xach: ok, that is pretty old.
2014-12-02T17:54:58Z Xach: I'm guessing emacs is getting a slime.el that is substantially newer than that.
2014-12-02T17:55:23Z jweiss: yep. so can i update the swank side?
2014-12-02T17:55:55Z jweiss: or is that the newest version in the repository
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2014-12-02T17:56:11Z Xach: jweiss: The normal way to update everything in Quicklisp is (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
2014-12-02T17:56:22Z Xach: that will get you slime 2.10.1 which came out last month or so.
2014-12-02T17:56:26Z Xach: along with many other new things.
2014-12-02T17:56:44Z jweiss: excellent, trying now
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2014-12-02T17:57:04Z Xach: jweiss: it would be good to find out where emacs is getting slime.el, though.
2014-12-02T17:57:37Z Xach: I don't know the best way to do that, but you could do M-x describe-function slime and go to the highlighted slime.el and see where it lives.
2014-12-02T17:58:03Z jweiss: slime-20141201.205 is the package name
2014-12-02T17:58:33Z Xach: package name?
2014-12-02T17:58:40Z jweiss: elpa package
2014-12-02T17:58:49Z Xach: oh. I don't know how that works, sorry.
2014-12-02T17:59:14Z Xach: I don't think what I'm suggesting is the best fix, then.
2014-12-02T17:59:21Z Xach: You might want to grab the ear of someone who knows about slime and elpa
2014-12-02T17:59:22Z jweiss: the quicklisp update didn't fix it
2014-12-02T17:59:39Z jweiss: what's strange is, this broke when restarting emacs, i didn't even update anything
2014-12-02T17:59:48Z jweiss: as far as i know anyway
2014-12-02T17:59:58Z Xach: That's not all that strange. It could have been a runtime config that got lost on reboot.
2014-12-02T18:00:02Z Xach: emacs reboot.
2014-12-02T18:00:26Z jweiss: yeah i guess i'll comment out all my slime-related config and see if that helps.  thakns
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2014-12-02T18:01:16Z jweiss: oh the slime-helper.el, that might be it
2014-12-02T18:01:27Z Xach: slime-helper should be avoided if you use elpa
2014-12-02T18:01:37Z Xach: Avoid mix and match
2014-12-02T18:01:48Z jweiss: ok
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2014-12-02T18:04:09Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-12-02T18:04:22Z oleo: evening beach!
2014-12-02T18:04:36Z oleo: evening lispers!
2014-12-02T18:04:43Z Shinmera: Hellos all around.
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2014-12-02T18:06:15Z beach: Does anyone know what happened to nyef?
2014-12-02T18:06:49Z Shinmera: Sadly I do not. I'll ask the same about stassats though.
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2014-12-02T18:08:02Z Xach: I think he may be doing stuff.
2014-12-02T18:08:12Z beach: Yeah, could be.
2014-12-02T18:08:15Z Xach: I remember when beach took some time off.
2014-12-02T18:08:40Z beach: Right, I am not holding it against him.  Just worried.
2014-12-02T18:08:54Z Xach: He is here from time to time. Not an extended absence.
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2014-12-02T18:09:12Z Xach: The last time was a week ago or so.
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2014-12-02T18:15:36Z jweiss: Xach: ok, I fixed it by just removing the elpa slime package and relying on slime-helper.el. thanks for the pointer.
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2014-12-02T18:16:21Z Xach: oh, ok. no problem. i think either way will work, as long as they aren't mixed.
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2014-12-02T18:34:10Z beach is going to book the hotel room for ELS early.
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2014-12-02T18:35:12Z beach: As I already mentioned, student dorm room was fine for just me for just a few nights, but I will be with my (admittedly small) family, and a student dorm room will not work out so well then.
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2014-12-02T18:37:11Z theseb: beach: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ ?
2014-12-02T18:37:33Z theseb: too cool
2014-12-02T18:37:37Z beach: ... especially the student dorm rooms near Goldsmiths had no individual showers or toilets.
2014-12-02T18:38:03Z beach: theseb: Yeah, that.
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2014-12-02T18:38:17Z theseb: conferences are very inspiring i find
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2014-12-02T18:39:11Z beach: theseb: They can be if you profit from them right.  The most important part is the personal contacts before, after, and between the talks.
2014-12-02T18:39:33Z theseb: beach: yup...everyone in the same place all pumped about hacking lisp
2014-12-02T18:39:38Z theseb: the people make it worth it
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2014-12-02T18:40:27Z Xach: I understand why people want to have audio and video of the talks, but that does little to recreate the benefits of attending a conference.
2014-12-02T18:40:28Z beach: theseb: Also good for finding Lisp-related jobs.
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2014-12-02T18:40:46Z beach: Xach: I totally agree.
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2014-12-02T18:42:28Z beach: Xach: Will you be there [barring illnesses]?
2014-12-02T18:43:04Z Xach: beach: I think so.
2014-12-02T18:43:23Z beach: Excellent!  Do you think you might submit a paper?
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2014-12-02T18:43:55Z Xach: I don't think that's likely.
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2014-12-02T18:44:08Z Xach: I find such things very stressful for uncertain benefit.
2014-12-02T18:44:22Z beach: I can relate to that.
2014-12-02T18:44:38Z Xach lunches
2014-12-02T18:44:49Z beach: It becomes easier over time, though.
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2014-12-02T18:45:53Z samebchase: faheem_: yeah.
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2014-12-02T18:53:37Z beach: samebchase: As in "you are Indian"?
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2014-12-02T18:54:50Z jasom: does anyone use gnu stow for managing symlinks to ~/.local/share/common-lisp/systems ?
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2014-12-02T19:03:36Z beach: drmeister: I have started renaming files to make them more unique.  I haven't finished yet, because it's an activity that I can do at the end of the work day when something more taxing is out of the question, so I reserve that activity for such periods.
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2014-12-02T19:05:28Z beach: drmeister: One piece of good news is that I am building the Extrinsic HIR compiler, and it is working out quite well.  I have found a few defects along the way, but this is a pretty good test for AST and HIR generation, so I think most of it is working.
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2014-12-02T20:36:29Z drmeister: Shinmera: stassats is hanging out in #sbcl
2014-12-02T20:36:58Z Shinmera: drmeister: Ah, alright, good to know.
2014-12-02T20:37:49Z Shinmera: I guess he's taking a break from the usual #lisp hysteria.
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2014-12-02T21:31:02Z jasom: Shinmera: I noticed you're starting a quicklisp dist?
2014-12-02T21:31:19Z Shinmera: I did, yes.
2014-12-02T21:32:19Z jasom: how painful was that?
2014-12-02T21:32:29Z Shinmera: Using quickdist: Not at all.
2014-12-02T21:32:37Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shirakumo/dist
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2014-12-02T21:33:41Z jasom: oh nice, I hadn't seen quickdist before
2014-12-02T21:34:06Z Shinmera: It's not in QL yet
2014-12-02T21:34:17Z jasom is reading the readme right now for it
2014-12-02T21:34:18Z Shinmera: (I think?)
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2014-12-02T21:39:34Z Xach: It's tricky. The Quicklisp dist build environment omits quicklisp.
2014-12-02T21:39:38Z Xach: I need to figure that one out.
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2014-12-02T22:11:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: Is it an accident that sbcl allows '+ to pass a function rather than #'+?
2014-12-02T22:11:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: Or a mistake I should say.
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2014-12-02T22:13:31Z Shinmera: clhs glossary/function designator
2014-12-02T22:13:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#function_designator
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2014-12-02T22:15:37Z drewc: Pixel_Outlaw:  That is not passing a function at all :) (cons (type-of 'cons) (type-of #'cons)) => (SYMBOL . FUNCTION). There is a difference
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2014-12-02T22:19:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: I just asked because reduce seems to use either. I can't access the hyperspec for some reason.
2014-12-02T22:19:52Z drewc: Pixel_Outlaw: (defun foo () 1) then (flet ((foo () (1+ (foo)))) (cons (funcall #'foo) (funcall 'foo))) => (2 . 1)
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2014-12-02T22:24:51Z |3b|: Pixel_Outlaw: you can use a "function designator" most places you can use a function object, and a symbol naming a (global) function is a designator for that function
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2014-12-02T22:26:12Z |3b|: for cl:+ they should always mean the same thing, for symbols in other packages, they might differ if there is a local function binding, or if the global function is redefined between when you save the function object and when you call it
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2014-12-02T22:26:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: Thanks guys! Very helpful.
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2014-12-02T22:27:14Z oGMo: it can actually be helpful to use 'fun rather than #'fun for just that reason
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2014-12-02T23:28:47Z jasom: Pixel_Outlaw: example (defun foo () 1) (flet ((foo () 2)) (list (funcall 'foo) (funcall #'foo))) => (1 2)
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