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2014-11-19T00:07:07Z didi: Hum. So I need to declare generic setf methods too. I have to say, `setf' is still a mystery to me.
2014-11-19T00:07:29Z stassats: what does it mean, declare generic setf method?
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2014-11-19T00:09:03Z didi: stassats: Well, when compiling a (defmethod (setf foo) ...) method, SBCL prints a STYLE-WARNING about implicitly creating a new generic method.
2014-11-19T00:10:53Z stassats: it's a generic function, not method
2014-11-19T00:11:03Z stassats: and it's not declared, but defined
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2014-11-19T00:11:25Z stassats: and this is not specific to (setf)
2014-11-19T00:11:38Z didi: Wow. OK.
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2014-11-19T00:12:18Z didi: Anyway, I will (defgeneric (setf foo) ...) them.
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2014-11-19T01:11:06Z miguel_: is there a function to remove an element from inside a list?
2014-11-19T01:11:19Z miguel_: unlist or something?
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2014-11-19T01:12:31Z stassats: clhs remove
2014-11-19T01:12:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
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2014-11-19T02:05:40Z pylix: hey guys
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2014-11-19T02:07:36Z pylix: how do i multiply all numbers in a list regaurdless of how nested it is?
2014-11-19T02:07:55Z stassats: recursively walk it
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2014-11-19T03:17:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-19T03:18:04Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-11-19T03:22:11Z beach: I am using restarts when Cleavir fails to find information about a function or a variable in the environment.  I think this is the first time I have had the need for restarts in any code I write.  It is the perfect use case.
2014-11-19T03:24:12Z drmeister: They are really nice restarts.
2014-11-19T03:24:34Z beach: Thanks! :)  So obvious when you find the right situation.
2014-11-19T03:25:11Z drmeister: I used them several times to get past conditions to see how far I could get Cleavir to go through the Clasp code.
2014-11-19T03:25:16Z beach: I feel sorry for people who have to write code in a language without restarts.
2014-11-19T03:25:42Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I did that myself in the test suites.
2014-11-19T03:26:07Z drmeister: I didn't quite understand - are only some special declarations processed or are they all now being processed?  I ran into some cases where special declarations were being ignored.
2014-11-19T03:26:36Z beach: Currently, LET and LET* should handle special declarations, but not LAMBDA.
2014-11-19T03:26:44Z drmeister: I spent the last couple of hours reading through your code to generate ASTs.
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2014-11-19T03:26:58Z beach: OK.
2014-11-19T03:27:01Z nyef: ... You didn't implement LET and LET* in terms of LAMBDA?
2014-11-19T03:27:06Z beach: No.
2014-11-19T03:27:06Z drmeister: Ok, it must have been the lambda cases.
2014-11-19T03:27:21Z beach: nyef: Don't ask me why.
2014-11-19T03:28:27Z Bike: let* as lambda with &optional or something? or just nested?
2014-11-19T03:28:33Z nyef: I briefly considered asking why not, but I'm tired enough right now that it doesn't seem important, just an implementation approach that seems slightly odd.
2014-11-19T03:28:57Z nyef: Bike: Nested is sufficient. You can transform LET* to nested LET, and thence to LAMBDA.
2014-11-19T03:29:01Z drmeister: Beach: Do you handle &aux in lambdas?  I ran into a case where it was a problem.
2014-11-19T03:29:06Z beach: nyef: I am not saying it is a good thing.  And I might change it once I have LAMBDA working
2014-11-19T03:29:15Z Bike: i'm just thinking of all the declaration parsing crap involved
2014-11-19T03:29:40Z beach: drmeister: I might have forgotten about &AUX in some cases.  I'll check.
2014-11-19T03:30:15Z beach: Bike: Yeah, it's a bit involved.
2014-11-19T03:30:16Z drmeister: A case where no lexical info could be obtained for an &aux binding.  I moved it into an inner let and it worked.
2014-11-19T03:30:36Z beach: drmeister: Seems like a clear indication.
2014-11-19T03:30:51Z nyef: Isn't the case often made that the only "legitimate" use of &AUX is in a BOA constructor?
2014-11-19T03:31:50Z drmeister: Still, you've got to support it.
2014-11-19T03:32:02Z stassats: nyef: if there were no &aux, some other way could be thought up
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2014-11-19T03:32:15Z nyef: drmeister: I'm not disputing that. (-:
2014-11-19T03:32:38Z stassats: and how often do you use boa?
2014-11-19T03:33:05Z drmeister: nyef: I know, I'm just enjoying the shoe being on the other hand for once.
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2014-11-19T03:33:17Z nyef: I don't know that I've EVER written a BOA constructor.
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2014-11-19T03:33:49Z nyef: drmeister: That's an... interesting mental image.
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2014-11-19T03:34:42Z drmeister: beach: You did some stuff with the AST to HIR, did you do anything with that forward referenced class?
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2014-11-19T03:34:58Z beach: drmeister: Not yet.
2014-11-19T03:35:20Z beach: Which one was it again?
2014-11-19T03:35:21Z drmeister: I haven't fixed (or figured out what is wrong) with my CLOS.  My laptop is giving me trouble.  The screen keeps going black and then I have to cycle the power.
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2014-11-19T03:35:37Z drmeister: ONE-something-something
2014-11-19T03:35:38Z beach: Sounds like it's time to buy a new one.
2014-11-19T03:35:55Z beach: OK, never mind.  I'll check the logs.
2014-11-19T03:36:06Z nyef: Sounds like a familiar problem... It's not a Thinkpad, is it?
2014-11-19T03:36:17Z drmeister: This is a one year old macbook pro that Apple gave me to replace my previous one a year ago that also had mysterious, irreproducible video issues.
2014-11-19T03:37:18Z drmeister: Today was terrible.  I'm going down to Washington on the train to give an important talk at the Department of Energy (seriously) and my laptop keeps crapping out on me.
2014-11-19T03:37:47Z drmeister: It's a good thing I went down with a colleague - I was able the get the presentation converted to Powerpoint and on to his Lenovo.
2014-11-19T03:37:54Z Zhivago: Tell them that you need Tesla's global wireless power system up and running pronto.
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2014-11-19T03:38:29Z nyef: ... Global wireless power system? Isn't that AM Radio?
2014-11-19T03:38:41Z stassats: the sun?
2014-11-19T03:39:13Z drmeister: I was contemplating a drive by the Apple store and throwing it on their doorstep.  Then I remembered that I'm born Canadian and we are raised better than that.
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2014-11-19T03:40:03Z Zhivago: Nah. He wanted to supercharge the ionosphere and tap into the telluric currents.
2014-11-19T03:40:45Z drmeister: I hate irreproducible hardware problems.  Just break already and I can get it fixed.
2014-11-19T03:41:21Z drmeister: I've got it sitting upstairs with the screen black and I'm going to let it run all night.  Maybe there's some tin whisker on the motherboard that will fry the thing.
2014-11-19T03:41:28Z stassats has a reproducible problem, but i don't know what causes it
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2014-11-19T03:42:51Z drmeister: Sorry - no more bellyaching from me.
2014-11-19T03:43:04Z nyef: I at least used to have an intermittent screen-going-blank issue, but I always figured it was software. It hasn't happened since my last full reinstall, so I'm hoping it's gone for now... And I have a new computer coming at some point anyway.
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2014-11-19T03:43:51Z stassats: another issue i have is the screen not going blank
2014-11-19T03:44:07Z nyef: (Well, somewhat software, I figure the embedded controller was killing power to the entire video system for some reason.)
2014-11-19T03:46:15Z beach: drmeister: Problem of forward reference fixed.
2014-11-19T03:46:28Z drmeister: beach: I was able to generate ASTs into file 3 of about 70 source files.
2014-11-19T03:47:12Z beach: drmeister: Is that good or bad?
2014-11-19T03:47:17Z drmeister: There were issues with specials not being recognized as such and one case where an (eval-when (eval compile load) ...) wasn't being evaluated.
2014-11-19T03:47:53Z drmeister: That's good - that's a lot of forms.
2014-11-19T03:48:00Z beach: OK. :)
2014-11-19T03:48:08Z beach: We'll get there.
2014-11-19T03:48:46Z drmeister: That's about where the screen when black.
2014-11-19T03:49:44Z drmeister: I'd like to generate some HIR and start converting HIR to LLVM-IR.  I'd like to have a taste of how that is going to work.
2014-11-19T03:49:58Z beach: Sure.
2014-11-19T03:51:25Z drmeister: You put a "meister" directory in SICL - I presume that was copied from my fork?  I'm trying to wrap my head around how that works with my fork and your original and whether I should keep the fork or what.
2014-11-19T03:51:59Z beach: I don't think I put any such directory in SICL.
2014-11-19T03:52:08Z beach: And I haven't used your fork yet.
2014-11-19T03:52:08Z drmeister: I thought the fork would be useful because I can push changes into it and then you can compare the changes to your code and decide whether they are a good idea or a bad idea.
2014-11-19T03:52:41Z beach: At the moment, I don't know GIT well enough to do that.
2014-11-19T03:53:07Z drmeister: Hmm, well then I'm confused.   When I fetched your upstream changes and rebased them into mine there were messages about the "meister" directory.  I must have misinterpreted them.
2014-11-19T03:53:37Z beach: But I told you already that the PRINT-OBJECT method specialized to a condition is not how I would have done it.
2014-11-19T03:53:51Z drmeister: Good, well, that's one less thing to have to wrap my mind around. It's so flexible at this point I can tie it in a bow.
2014-11-19T03:54:19Z drmeister: No sweat - I'll take that out.
2014-11-19T03:54:31Z beach: However, because you did create that method, I am now considering putting in enough infrastructure for internationalization.
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2014-11-19T03:54:39Z drmeister: What was the problem with what I did?  You said there were constraints on print-object for conditions.
2014-11-19T03:55:01Z beach: drmeister: Yes, hold on.  I'll find the Common Lisp HyperSpec page for you...
2014-11-19T03:55:14Z drmeister: internationalization?  Did I use a Canadian spelling or something?
2014-11-19T03:55:34Z stassats: considering that :report for conditions is specified to use print-object
2014-11-19T03:55:50Z beach: stassats: Yes, but there is a condition in there.
2014-11-19T03:56:20Z beach: clhs define-condition
2014-11-19T03:56:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_5.htm
2014-11-19T03:56:32Z stassats: a condition in condition printing?
2014-11-19T03:56:45Z drmeister: Was "internationalization" a result of autocorrect? Or do you mean to support different languages for error messages?
2014-11-19T03:57:11Z stassats wonders what word could be corrected to "internationalization"
2014-11-19T03:57:14Z beach: drmeister: The latter.
2014-11-19T03:57:48Z beach: drmeister: Condition reporting tests *print-escape*.
2014-11-19T03:58:07Z beach: (if *print-escape* (call-next-method) ...)
2014-11-19T04:00:03Z beach: drmeister: Do you see it?  Under :REPORT near the middle of the page.
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2014-11-19T04:01:33Z beach: drmeister: Did you faint?
2014-11-19T04:01:54Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out what the point of not printing conditions when *print-escape* is.
2014-11-19T04:01:59Z drmeister: nil.
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2014-11-19T04:02:06Z drmeister: Or do I read that incorrectly.
2014-11-19T04:02:26Z beach: Presumably, you get the #<condition...> syntax then.
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2014-11-19T04:02:32Z drmeister: Other way around.
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2014-11-19T04:03:00Z drmeister: Oh, I think I see.
2014-11-19T04:03:16Z drmeister: But is that a constraint on defining print-object for conditions?
2014-11-19T04:03:27Z beach: I suppose not.
2014-11-19T04:03:29Z drmeister: Other than don't expect *print-escape* to be anything other than nil.
2014-11-19T04:04:07Z beach: But it would be recommend to define print-object methods as if the :report had been given.
2014-11-19T04:04:07Z drmeister: Hang on, sometimes I have to read things several times to get it.
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2014-11-19T04:06:44Z drmeister: I see, I'm confusing the :report option with the print-object method. They can be two different things.  Providing an argument to :report generates a print-object method and then explicitly providing a print-object will override that method.
2014-11-19T04:07:20Z beach: "Replace" I would think.
2014-11-19T04:07:41Z beach: ... rather than "override", I mean.
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2014-11-19T04:08:14Z drmeister: Or do I still have that wrong.  You are saying that a :report can be given AND a print-object can be provided.  Or does the print-object specialized to a condition replace what is generated by the :report option?
2014-11-19T04:08:22Z drmeister: I can look this up myself - hang on.
2014-11-19T04:08:37Z beach: The latter I think.
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2014-11-19T04:11:05Z drmeister: In ECL CLOS there is a print-object method specialized to CONDITION. That method looks up the 'report-function slot of the condition and if its a string it prints it and if its a function it funcalls it.
2014-11-19T04:11:56Z beach: That doesn't sound conforming to me.  Maybe others can help.
2014-11-19T04:12:15Z stassats: no, that's exactly what it should do
2014-11-19T04:12:26Z beach: :(
2014-11-19T04:13:10Z drmeister: So a print-object method specialized to a condition derived from CL:CONDITION will be called first and if it invokes call-next-method then the default behavior specified by the :report option will be carried out.
2014-11-19T04:13:46Z stassats: drmeister: nope
2014-11-19T04:14:54Z drmeister: Nope?  What did I get wrong?
2014-11-19T04:15:27Z stassats: ok, everything, i was saying that it should do only about the last part of your sentence
2014-11-19T04:15:29Z beach: In SBCL, when I do (define-condition bla () ()) and then (make-condition 'bla), the result is printed using the #<BLA ...> syntax.  *PRINT-ESCAPE* is T
2014-11-19T04:15:40Z stassats: i.e. calling a function or printing a string
2014-11-19T04:15:53Z stassats: i didn't realize that by CONDITION you meant CL:CONDITION
2014-11-19T04:16:20Z drmeister: stassats: Which sentence?  I have a tendency to go on and on.
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2014-11-19T04:18:46Z drmeister: Ok, it's ok.  I always have the source code.
2014-11-19T04:18:55Z beach: drmeister: It looks to me like the default method on PRINT-OBJECT specialized to CONDITION should use PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT.
2014-11-19T04:20:15Z beach: stassats: Are you saying this is wrong?
2014-11-19T04:21:12Z drmeister: If *print-escape* is T then it invokes (call-next-method) which probably invokes PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT.
2014-11-19T04:21:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zpvSRZXV
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2014-11-19T04:22:22Z stassats: either way will be equivalent to what clhs describes, as long as you don't expect the method dispatch that clhs describes
2014-11-19T04:23:17Z stassats: as long as you don't write any print-object methods yourself, you can't notice a difference
2014-11-19T04:23:23Z stassats: but if you do, and call-next-method, you will
2014-11-19T04:24:29Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-11-19T04:24:31Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2014-11-19T04:25:33Z beach: drmeister: So in ECL/Clasp, when you define a new condition with a :REPORT init, no new method is created?
2014-11-19T04:26:56Z beach: s/init/in it/
2014-11-19T04:26:59Z beach: Damn!
2014-11-19T04:26:59Z drmeister: I don't think a new method is created. The only place print-object is mentioned in the conditions.lsp source file is in that (defmethod print-object ((c condition) stream) ...)
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2014-11-19T04:27:11Z beach: drmeister: I see.
2014-11-19T04:27:56Z drmeister: The :report argument gets put into the 'report-function slot and that print-object method specialized to CL:CONDITION reads that slot.
2014-11-19T04:28:09Z nyef: Mmm. CONDITIONs aren't fully integrated to CLOS, for a variety of historical reasons.
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2014-11-19T04:31:22Z loke: Xach: assuming you're reading messages after you wake up: I've created the two bug reports on zs3 now.
2014-11-19T04:31:28Z loke: https://github.com/xach/zs3/issues/14
2014-11-19T04:31:34Z loke: https://github.com/xach/zs3/issues/13
2014-11-19T04:31:52Z beach: If I do this: (define-condition bla () () (:report "hello"))
2014-11-19T04:32:03Z beach: And then: (compute-applicable-methods #'print-object (list (make-condition 'bla) *standard-output*))
2014-11-19T04:32:17Z beach: I would fully expect a method specialized to BLA.
2014-11-19T04:32:58Z beach: SBCL does not do that, and apparently ECL/Clasp doesn't either.
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2014-11-19T04:34:57Z beach: "Specifying (:report report-name) in the definition of a condition type C is equivalent to: ..."
2014-11-19T04:36:14Z drmeister: I guess "equivalent to" is not equivalent to "exactly the same as".
2014-11-19T04:36:29Z beach: I think it is.
2014-11-19T04:38:13Z beach: But at least I now understand the reason for the different interpretations of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2014-11-19T04:44:32Z nyef: beach: CLHS 9.1.3 also seems relevant, plus a restriction "* The :report option of define-condition, not defmethod for print-object, must be used to define a condition reporter." from the page for Condition Type CONDITION.
2014-11-19T04:46:38Z beach: nyef: Indeed.
2014-11-19T04:47:30Z beach: So they are equivalent, but you aren't allowed to use the second one.
2014-11-19T04:47:33Z beach: Right?
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2014-11-19T04:47:59Z stassats: the user
2014-11-19T04:48:09Z beach: Yes.
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2014-11-19T04:49:26Z beach: This discussion deserves a chapter in my book "Common Lisp for Language Implementers".
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2014-11-19T04:50:53Z beach: drmeister: So I was wrong about the restrictions you have to respect when writing a method on PRINT-OBJECT for reporting those conditions.  You aren't even allowed to write such a method.
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2014-11-19T04:54:19Z nyef: Hrm.
2014-11-19T04:54:36Z nyef: beach: You might also be right in your expectation vis-a-vis compute-applicable-methods, though.
2014-11-19T04:55:02Z beach: Yes, I still think that.
2014-11-19T04:55:26Z beach: That issue seems orthogonal to this one.
2014-11-19T04:55:33Z nyef: It'd be another matter if print-object were defined to be a generic function rather than a standard-generic-function.
2014-11-19T04:55:54Z beach: Why?
2014-11-19T04:56:21Z beach: Oh, because then you might have some other mechanism for creating methods?
2014-11-19T04:56:42Z nyef: Pretty much, yeah.
2014-11-19T04:56:48Z beach: Yeah, I think I see.
2014-11-19T04:56:59Z stassats: nyef: aren't all gfs in the standard standard?
2014-11-19T04:57:38Z nyef: stassats: I wouldn't know either way, but compute-applicable-methods only has behavior defined for standard generic functions.
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2014-11-19T04:57:59Z stassats: you can't create non standard without MOP, can you?
2014-11-19T04:58:06Z stassats: mop c-a-m
2014-11-19T04:58:07Z specbot: compute-applicable-methods: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods.html
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2014-11-19T04:58:29Z nyef: The MOP isn't required to apply when we're discussing interpreting CLHS.
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2014-11-19T05:01:48Z murftown: hey, how can I see a line number for my errors in sbcl?
2014-11-19T05:02:17Z beach: murftown: You use SLIME and then press "v" on your stack frame.  You don't use line numbers.
2014-11-19T05:03:03Z murftown: beach: ahh, does slimv do that too?
2014-11-19T05:03:14Z beach: No idea.  Sorry
2014-11-19T05:03:25Z murftown: beach: '(no worries)
2014-11-19T05:04:32Z beach: This is how I am thinking of doing internationalization: Define a LOCALE class containing lots of things like printing dates, but also an instance of the class LANGUAGE.  There is a *CURRENT-LOCALE* variable.  There is a condition INTERNATIONAL-CONDITION with a :report of REPORT-CONDITION which is a generic function that is called with the condition, the stream and the value of (LANGUAGE *current-locale*).
2014-11-19T05:05:26Z beach: Client code can use INTERNATIONAL-CONDITION as a superclass and write methods on REPORT-CONDITION specialized to their favorite language.
2014-11-19T05:05:33Z beach: Opinions?
2014-11-19T05:07:38Z nyef: ... I can't think through the condition and :report logic and whatnot right now, but one thing that does come to mind is that "localized-condition" might be a better name than "international-condition".
2014-11-19T05:07:57Z beach: Yes, good.  Nothing set in stone yet.
2014-11-19T05:08:16Z stassats: nyef: localized to the error site?
2014-11-19T05:08:19Z beach: Client code can of course choose not to use INTERNATIONAL-CONDITION in their own condition types.  And they can override the behavior by creating a subclass of a condition that *does* use INTERNATIONAL-CONDITION as a superclass, just by providing their own :REPORT.
2014-11-19T05:08:41Z nyef: Reason being that even within a nation, you can have different localization requirements (consider Quebec!), but you can also have multiple nations sharing the same locale in some sense.
2014-11-19T05:09:01Z beach: Don't I know it.
2014-11-19T05:09:19Z nyef: Mmm. You'd probably know it far better than I.
2014-11-19T05:09:30Z beach: I am constantly trying to get dates printed in ISO8601, messages in English, and wind speeds in m/s.
2014-11-19T05:09:31Z Zhivago: international-condition sounds like a really bad name.
2014-11-19T05:09:50Z beach: Yeah, I get it.  Thanks.
2014-11-19T05:10:47Z Zhivago: One interesting point that you might have missed regarding i18n is that input and output can often have different localization requirements.
2014-11-19T05:10:49Z beach: Zhivago: so is LOCALIZED-CONDITION better?
2014-11-19T05:10:58Z Zhivago: No. It sounds like an earthquake.
2014-11-19T05:11:02Z beach: Heh!
2014-11-19T05:11:03Z Zhivago: Why not locale-condition?
2014-11-19T05:11:06Z drmeister: I'm back - I had some computer problems.
2014-11-19T05:11:19Z stassats: but people in the same city can speak different languages, so, how localized is it?
2014-11-19T05:11:21Z beach: Zhivago: Thanks for the hint about input and output.
2014-11-19T05:11:22Z Zhivago: Since it seems to be about locales being defective of something.
2014-11-19T05:11:25Z nyef: Zhivago: Because it sounds like a problem with the locale system?
2014-11-19T05:11:39Z Zhivago: What's the condition about then? Perhaps I missed something.
2014-11-19T05:12:13Z Zhivago: Yeah, you might want to e.g., input in English, but output in Chinese.
2014-11-19T05:13:01Z beach: How about I just call it cleavir-i18n:condition?
2014-11-19T05:13:03Z Zhivago: Or the reverse -- e.g., to search for Chinese text but display in English.
2014-11-19T05:13:21Z Zhivago: That sounds reasonable.
2014-11-19T05:13:42Z beach: Good.  Thanks.
2014-11-19T05:14:11Z beach: drmeister: You'll have to catch up by reading the logs.  Very interesting discussion.
2014-11-19T05:15:10Z beach: I feel my day has already been very productive, even though it has lasted for only 2 hours so far.
2014-11-19T05:15:25Z Zhivago: Hmm, I guess anything you do using specials for i18n is doomed to probably suck pretty hard, regardless.
2014-11-19T05:16:21Z nyef: Okay, it's late, I'm going to wish you all progress on your projects and luck wherever you need it, and head to bed.
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2014-11-19T05:16:31Z drmeister: I see print-object on conditions is verboten
2014-11-19T05:16:40Z beach: Seems that way, yes.
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2014-11-19T05:21:56Z drmeister: beach: When I (asdf:load-system :cleavir-ast-to-hir) the :cleavir-env package doesn't get defined.  Is that to be expected?   Should I also need to (asdf:load-system :cleavir-generate-ast)?
2014-11-19T05:22:11Z drmeister: I know I should be using uninterned symbols.
2014-11-19T05:24:04Z drmeister: I'll load both systems.
2014-11-19T05:25:10Z beach: It should be automatic.  Probably a :depends-on missing.
2014-11-19T05:25:39Z beach: No wait.  An AST can come from elsewhere.
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2014-11-19T05:26:03Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-11-19T05:26:34Z drmeister is pleased with himself that he got ASDF working.
2014-11-19T05:26:50Z beach vanishes for about half an hour.
2014-11-19T05:27:01Z drmeister: (asdf:load-system :cleavir-generate-ast) (asdf:load-system :cleavir-ast-to-hir) works now - thanks.
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2014-11-19T05:30:42Z drmeister: beach: When you get back I tried:  (setq ast (cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast '(let ((x 1)) (+ x x)) *clasp-env*))
2014-11-19T05:30:53Z drmeister: (cleavir-ast-to-hir:compile-toplevel ast)
2014-11-19T05:31:12Z drmeister: I got an error "illegal successors: NIL"
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2014-11-19T05:32:29Z drmeister: I'll be up for a little while longer if you get back in time.  Otherwise I'll talk to you tomorrow.
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2014-11-19T05:51:45Z beach: drmeister: I'll look into it.  Like I said, not tested yet.
2014-11-19T05:51:56Z beach: That's today's task.
2014-11-19T05:54:14Z drmeister: You were generating HIR a while ago.  Is the expression above using the new multiple value return stuff you just added?
2014-11-19T05:54:20Z murftown: hey so you know how #'foo represents the function foo not the variable foo?  How can I get #'somevar where somevar gets evaluated to a symbol name?
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2014-11-19T05:54:46Z beach: drmeister: I completely changed the AST-to-HIR code.
2014-11-19T05:54:56Z drmeister: Ohhhh.  Ok then.
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2014-11-19T05:55:29Z beach: murftown: You are confused.
2014-11-19T05:56:28Z beach: murftown: If you just type somevar, it means the variable with that name.  It doesn't get EVALUATED TO the variable with that name.  When evaluated, it returns the VALUE of the variable with that name.
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2014-11-19T05:57:17Z murftown: beach: but that's what I have is somevar whose value is a SYMBOL, i.e. a potential name for a function
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2014-11-19T05:57:41Z murftown: sorry if question was unclear
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2014-11-19T05:58:12Z beach: murftown: Let me get this straight.  You have a variable, and the name of that variable is a symbol.  That symbol is the name of a function.  Given the variable, you want to return the function?
2014-11-19T05:58:39Z murftown: I have a variable, and the VALUE of that variable is a symbol.
2014-11-19T05:58:50Z beach: Sorry, yes.
2014-11-19T05:58:53Z beach: murftown: (fdefinition somevar)
2014-11-19T05:58:53Z murftown: That symbol is the name of the function, and now I want to call the function
2014-11-19T05:59:12Z beach: (funcall (fdefinition somevar) arg1 arg2 ...)
2014-11-19T05:59:48Z murftown: beach: perfect, thanks!
2014-11-19T06:00:03Z beach: Anytime.
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2014-11-19T06:00:55Z drmeister: Well, bonne nuit!
2014-11-19T06:01:30Z beach: Good night drmeister.
2014-11-19T06:05:50Z stassats: murftown: (funcall somevar arg1 arg2 ...)
2014-11-19T06:06:21Z murftown: stassats: thanks, beach gave me what I needed with fdefinition
2014-11-19T06:06:30Z murftown: I can't believe how powerful lisp is!
2014-11-19T06:07:57Z beach: Glad you like it. :)
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2014-11-19T06:09:29Z stassats: murftown: except that you don't need fdefinition
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2014-11-19T06:13:40Z murftown: stassats: well it solved my problem.  I already tried (funcall somevar arg1 arg2) but it didn't use the function namespace for somevar
2014-11-19T06:13:55Z stassats: that's not right
2014-11-19T06:14:16Z stassats: it does exactly the same thing as (funcall (fdefinition somevar) arg1 arg2)
2014-11-19T06:21:12Z murftown: stassats: ok, I see it doing mostly the same thing, but I still can't fix my code to work without fdefinition for some reason
2014-11-19T06:23:49Z loke: murftown: (funcall #'somevar) ?
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2014-11-19T06:23:59Z beach: loke: No.
2014-11-19T06:24:02Z stassats: that's not what fdefinition does
2014-11-19T06:24:12Z loke: Ah right. Thats FUNCTION
2014-11-19T06:24:12Z beach: loke: The value of the variable is the name of the function.
2014-11-19T06:24:25Z beach: murftown: Don't worry about it.  We'll teach you about "designators" in due time.
2014-11-19T06:25:22Z beach: drmeister: That example now works for me.
2014-11-19T06:25:39Z loke: let me guess then: somevar contains a lambda list?
2014-11-19T06:26:15Z stassats: that's not what fdefinition does
2014-11-19T06:26:33Z murftown: beach: sounds good.  if interested I'd be happy to show you guys what my use-case is here.  I created a macro called cpnd-funcall that allows me to input a list as a "function name", and it will call the function with the same name, i.e. (cpnd-funcall '(hello func with compound name)) will call function #'|(hello func with compound name)|
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2014-11-19T06:27:18Z loke: murftown: that sounds... weird
2014-11-19T06:27:31Z murftown: loke:  :) it is
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2014-11-19T06:50:23Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-11-19T06:57:20Z murftown: how can I turn a list (a b c d e) into one where each element is quoted, ('a 'b 'c 'd 'e) ?
2014-11-19T06:59:23Z loke: murftown: are you sure you understand what you're asking?
2014-11-19T06:59:35Z murftown: loke: yes
2014-11-19T06:59:43Z loke: you understand what quoteing does, right?
2014-11-19T07:00:06Z Zhivago: Perhaps he means '(a b c d e) -> ('a 'b 'c 'd 'e).
2014-11-19T07:00:07Z loke: It prevents evaluation. If you have a list (a b c d e) there is no evaluation going on, unless you pass it to EVAL
2014-11-19T07:00:24Z murftown: loke: I get that
2014-11-19T07:00:31Z loke: Zhivago: Well, yes. That's easy
2014-11-19T07:00:51Z murftown: here's what I came up with: (defun quoteall (l)
2014-11-19T07:00:51Z murftown:     (mapcar (lambda (i) (list 'quote i)) l)
2014-11-19T07:00:52Z murftown: )
2014-11-19T07:00:57Z loke: if you _really_ wan tit, just try (mapcar #'(lambda (v) (list 'quote v)) the-list)
2014-11-19T07:01:09Z murftown: loke: exactly
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2014-11-19T07:07:15Z Zhivago: There's also `',i :)
2014-11-19T07:08:28Z murftown: Zhivago: whoa, really!  I was looking for something like that but I can't wrap my mind around that yet
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2014-11-19T07:15:40Z Zhivago: 'x is (quote x), so ',x is (quote ,x), so `',x is `(quote ,x)
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2014-11-19T07:20:13Z loke: I have a need to do basic source code highlighting in Coomon Lisp. Anyone know of any packages that can do this?
2014-11-19T07:20:27Z loke: There is one that can do Common Lisp, but I'd like to do multiple languages
2014-11-19T07:20:36Z joga: emacs? :)
2014-11-19T07:20:46Z loke: This is for a web application
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2014-11-19T07:20:56Z loke: It's already written in CL :-)
2014-11-19T07:21:05Z H4ns: doesn't lisppaste contain something like that?
2014-11-19T07:21:32Z loke: H4ns: it does. you're right
2014-11-19T07:22:05Z loke: I want to integrate it into my simple markup processor.
2014-11-19T07:22:06Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-markup
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2014-11-19T07:25:17Z loke: Where is the official source repository for lisppaste by the way
2014-11-19T07:25:17Z loke: ?
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2014-11-19T07:28:54Z |3b|: lisppaste uses colorize
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2014-11-19T07:29:18Z loke: thanks
2014-11-19T07:29:24Z loke: I thought that one only did CL
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2014-11-19T07:36:44Z siwica: I am currently learning lisp. What would be a good programming project that I could do to learn it?
2014-11-19T07:37:32Z Zhivago: You could write an annoying irc bot.
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2014-11-19T09:18:52Z wasamasa: siwica: the best ideas usually come from scratching an itch
2014-11-19T09:19:28Z wasamasa: siwica: like, if you notice some day that there's not a single decent epub reader for linux desktops, you go ahead and write one
2014-11-19T09:20:04Z siwica: wasamasa: I have some experience with languages in other paradigms, so I wonderes if there are a few "canonical" beginners problems for functional languages.
2014-11-19T09:20:11Z wasamasa: siwica: because you've been bothered enough by it to turn it into a project for yourself
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2014-11-19T09:20:24Z wasamasa: siwica: implementing map with reduce :P
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2014-11-19T09:20:39Z wasamasa: siwica: then, CL isn't particularly functional (out of the box)
2014-11-19T09:20:45Z wasamasa: siwica: so that would make little sense
2014-11-19T09:21:12Z siwica: wasamasa: what do you mean its not functional
2014-11-19T09:21:16Z siwica: I am using emacs lisp in particular
2014-11-19T09:21:27Z wasamasa: emacs lisp is not functional programming either
2014-11-19T09:21:56Z wasamasa: in fact, I'd call it the lisp dialect furthest away from FP, simply because you're forced to modify global states to get anything meaningful done :P
2014-11-19T09:22:26Z wasamasa: siwica: it has little support for functional programming
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2014-11-19T09:23:23Z wasamasa: siwica: if you want to discuss other lisp dialects than common lisp, I encourage you to strike up a conversation on ##lisp or the respective channel of that lisp dialect (for elisp, that would be #emacs)
2014-11-19T09:23:25Z |3b|: siwica: this channel focuses on common lisp (and interprets 'lisp' on its own as common lisp), which supports lots of programming paradigms to varying extents
2014-11-19T09:24:17Z siwica: ok, sorry
2014-11-19T09:24:36Z wasamasa: siwica: if you want to learn a language that's supporting FP only, take a look at haskell
2014-11-19T09:25:04Z siwica: Yes I did
2014-11-19T09:25:21Z siwica: that would be my prefered language
2014-11-19T09:25:35Z wasamasa: /join #haskell then
2014-11-19T09:25:36Z siwica: but i thought since I am using emacs anyway, I might aswell...
2014-11-19T09:27:08Z wasamasa: you could go and write some more coherent haskell support for emacs, yes
2014-11-19T09:27:19Z wasamasa: but that has pretty much nothing to do with functional programming
2014-11-19T09:29:40Z |3b|: from what i've seen, people talking about function programming with "lisp" usually mean some subset of scheme
2014-11-19T09:29:45Z |3b|: *functional
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2014-11-19T10:12:59Z didi: Is there a convention for using comments on top of lisp libraries, specially single file ones?
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2014-11-19T10:45:14Z Shinmera: Ah, I missed you, old friend. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.19-11:44:48.png
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2014-11-19T11:16:18Z pjb: minion: memo for Shinmera: since setting an undeclared variable is implementation dependant, an implementation could define automatically _lexical_ variables for them, so you may have fun at the REPL and keep your programs working. But this would need additionnal code in the implementation.
2014-11-19T11:16:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-11-19T11:43:23Z pjb: Zhivago: beach set up a lisp project list!  http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2014-11-19T12:09:11Z schjetne: pjb`: thanks for the link that's relevant to my interests as well
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2014-11-19T12:12:44Z alpha-: pjb` interesting site
2014-11-19T12:13:30Z Shinmera: pjb`: I'm still confused a bit. If I say define a function that uses some variable that is neither lexically bound nor declared special and then later use defvar, are the consequences implementation dependant?
2014-11-19T12:13:30Z minion: Shinmera, memo from pjb: since setting an undeclared variable is implementation dependant, an implementation could define automatically _lexical_ variables for them, so you may have fun at the REPL and keep your programs working. But this would need additionnal code in the implementation.
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2014-11-19T12:18:31Z francogrex: hi, in a program some arguments are passed as keyword: for example (r% "rownames" NONRBIND :do.NULL nil) but the case of the keyword matters for example: ;R! Error in function (x, do.NULL = TRUE, prefix = "row")  ;R!   unused argument(s) (do.null = FALSE)
2014-11-19T12:19:32Z francogrex: as you can see I must pass do.NULL as it is and not do.null as it is being translated to be passed to the receiving app. Can it be done to "fix" the case of the keywords
2014-11-19T12:20:30Z |3b|: pjb: is accessing non-existent variables specified somewhere to be implementation dependent as opposed to undefined?
2014-11-19T12:20:49Z |3b| thought it was just completely ignored by the spec, so presumably undefined
2014-11-19T12:22:05Z |3b|: francogrex: did you want to use :|do.NULL| ?
2014-11-19T12:22:54Z |3b|: or look up the correct case in a table somewhere if you know them all in advance
2014-11-19T12:23:44Z |3b|: other option is tricks with reader case, but unless you have a modern-mode lisp that would probably be annoying too
2014-11-19T12:24:14Z |3b|: (either you would have to type everything else in upper case, or you would have to type :DO.null to get "do.NULL")
2014-11-19T12:26:32Z francogrex: |3b|: :|do.NULL| does not do the trick unfortunately
2014-11-19T12:26:51Z |3b|: well, you also need to print it correctly, which "do.null" suggests you aren't
2014-11-19T12:27:08Z |3b|: with default settings, :do.NULL is read as a symbol named "DO.NULL"
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2014-11-19T12:27:38Z |3b|: so if it prints as "do.null" you are discarding any case info in the symbol, and putting 'correct' case in the symbol name won't help
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2014-11-19T12:37:05Z alpha-: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2014-11-19T12:37:14Z alpha-: this looks interesting
2014-11-19T12:37:17Z alpha-: and crazy
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2014-11-19T12:49:11Z francogrex: my issue here is (equal :a :A) => T I want it to give nil
2014-11-19T12:49:23Z joga: regarding crazy + os... this is pretty neat http://www.templeos.org/
2014-11-19T12:49:36Z Xach: francogrex: why?
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2014-11-19T12:51:37Z francogrex: Xach: I am passing args keywords and the app wants them in a specific case: (r% "rownames" NONRBIND :do.NULL nil) => ;R! Error in function (x, do.NULL = TRUE, prefix = "row"): unused argument(s) (do.null = FALSE)
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2014-11-19T12:52:24Z Shinmera: What kind of application cares about the keyword case
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2014-11-19T12:52:29Z francogrex: R
2014-11-19T12:52:29Z alpha-: they propose tag filesystem instead of hierarchical - you can do thi in linux if you wanted
2014-11-19T12:52:40Z francogrex: a lot of others as well
2014-11-19T12:53:03Z Shinmera: so you're interacting with another programming language, not a lisp application
2014-11-19T12:53:31Z alpha-: they propose unified memory with ram ascache but the point us unclear since linux kernel already caching read data in ram
2014-11-19T12:53:48Z francogrex: yes another
2014-11-19T12:54:19Z Shinmera: In that case it's your wrapper's job to translate the keywords into the proper case.
2014-11-19T12:54:27Z alpha-: they complain that serialization/deserialization is a prolem - is it really
2014-11-19T12:55:25Z H4ns: alpha-: if it does not appeal to you, you can safely ignore the proposal
2014-11-19T12:55:26Z Shinmera: alpha-: If the three gazillion different file formats are not a good enough proof that serialization is a problem, I don't know what is.
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2014-11-19T12:57:14Z |3b|: francogrex: either do (eql :|a| :A) => nil, or configure the reader to preserve or invert case
2014-11-19T12:57:21Z alpha-: H4ns it is appealing
2014-11-19T12:57:26Z alpha-: idea
2014-11-19T12:57:35Z alpha-: but not for any of the reasons listed on that page lol
2014-11-19T12:58:04Z |3b|: francogrex: just keep in mind that preserving case means you need to type all CL symbols in upper case, and inverting case will invert case which you would need to undo when printing
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2014-11-19T13:00:58Z Shinmera: Or you have to wrap it. (defun r-rownames (&key do.null) (r% "rownames" NONRBIND :|do.NULL| arg))
2014-11-19T13:01:02Z francogrex: |3b|: ok
2014-11-19T13:01:13Z Shinmera: *arg=>do.null
2014-11-19T13:01:17Z alejandrozf: hi everybody, I have a question, What you think is better CL or Racket?
2014-11-19T13:01:26Z Shinmera: This channel is about CL, so
2014-11-19T13:01:39Z Shinmera: It's either off-topic or a trivial answer.
2014-11-19T13:01:51Z alejandrozf: ohh sorry
2014-11-19T13:02:03Z Shinmera: You can try ##lisp for general lisp discussion
2014-11-19T13:02:10Z |3b|: there is also #racket if you'd prefer the other trivial answer :)
2014-11-19T13:02:16Z |3b|: (or #scheme)
2014-11-19T13:02:35Z alejandrozf: i'm so newbie, I'been exploring both but I didn't decided
2014-11-19T13:02:55Z Shinmera: I'm sure there's nothing wrong about learning both.
2014-11-19T13:03:20Z |3b|: most of the arguments are personal preference, so use whichever you like best
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2014-11-19T13:03:48Z |3b|: at least for CL vs scheme
2014-11-19T13:03:57Z alejandrozf: I started with CL but GUI its difficult to me...
2014-11-19T13:04:06Z wasamasa: webui ftw
2014-11-19T13:04:16Z |3b|: 'racket' implies a specific scheme implementation + extensions and extra libraries, so not quite as direct a comparison to CL as a language
2014-11-19T13:04:17Z wasamasa: alejandrozf: also, discuss such stuff on ##lisp
2014-11-19T13:04:29Z wasamasa: alejandrozf: #lisp is about common lisp only
2014-11-19T13:04:38Z alejandrozf: ok!
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2014-11-19T13:21:25Z francogrex: |3b|: you expected :do.Null to be transmitted as :DO.NULL but I think the programmer has placed a code that converts the cases to downcase before passing it on to R: this in his source: (string-downcase (substitute #\_ #\- (symbol-name arg)))
2014-11-19T13:22:26Z Shinmera: francogrex: in that case no matter what kind o symbol is read it's not going to end up being the right case.
2014-11-19T13:22:35Z |3b|: right, that's what i was saying, which is why :|do.NULL| doesn't help
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2014-11-19T13:24:15Z francogrex: true
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2014-11-19T13:24:35Z Shinmera: Looks like you need to fix the library.
2014-11-19T13:24:50Z francogrex: the programmer assumed all args are downcase because in general they are, except for that 0;1% situation
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2014-11-19T14:22:09Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-11-19T14:22:11Z schjetne: wasamasa: no love for the Zetalisp or Maclisp communities? ;)
2014-11-19T14:23:25Z schjetne: I've been thinking of doing a toy Lisp 1.5 implementation as a bit of historical re-enactment
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2014-11-19T14:30:43Z wasamasa: schjetne: don't know enough about those to be honest
2014-11-19T14:33:48Z schjetne: The predecessors to Common Lisp, but I guess any legacy code still in use has been ported to CL
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2014-11-19T14:34:45Z schjetne: That was one of the objectives of CL, to make transition from older dialects as smooth as possible
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2014-11-19T14:35:37Z schjetne: If you're interested, check out Gabriel & Steele - The Evolution of Lisp
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2014-11-19T14:48:15Z pjb: |3b|: it's undefined. Implementations are free to implement whatever they want in this case: signal an error, create a special variable, create a lexical variable, launch a ballistic missiles onto the programmer, whatever.
2014-11-19T14:48:59Z pjb: |3b|: most implementations seem to find useful to create a special variable.  I would argue that it would be more newbie friendly, and otherwise REPL user friendly, to define a (global) lexical variable.
2014-11-19T14:49:43Z pjb: Shinmera: yes, if you define a function with a undefined free variable, and later define it, it is undefined, implementation dependant, what may happen.
2014-11-19T14:49:58Z pjb: There's no forward definition for variables.
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2014-11-19T14:52:12Z drmeister: Morning nyef
2014-11-19T14:52:13Z pjb: alpha-: this is not htat crazy: http://wiki.osdev.org/Main_Page  http://micropenguin.net/files/Other/OS/os-dev.pdf
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2014-11-19T14:54:31Z pjb: minion memo for francogrex: you can restore normality with (|SETF| (|READTABLE-CASE| |*READTABLE*|) :|PRESERVE|)  and thereafter, write the CL symbols in uppercase: (DEFUN myfun (&KEY do.NULL) (PRINT (LIST 'hi do.NULL))) (myfun :do.NULL 'Lo)
2014-11-19T14:55:08Z pjb: minion memo for francogrex: cf. also my emacs commands upcase-lisp and upcase-lisp-region.
2014-11-19T14:56:02Z Shinmera: pjb: Alright, thanks!
2014-11-19T14:57:07Z pjb: schjetne: no love here, but try ##lisp.
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2014-11-19T14:59:57Z pjb: schjetne: legacy code doesn't have to be converted to run in Common Lisp in a lot of cases. cf. eg. http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html.in
2014-11-19T15:00:37Z pjb: schjetne: but of course, if you want to make it evolve, you would better upgrade it to CL.
2014-11-19T15:00:45Z axion: how do i push an element onto an adjustable #2a?
2014-11-19T15:00:52Z pjb: schjetne: old code usually use old style that is rather unmaintainable.
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2014-11-19T15:02:10Z pjb: axion: you don't.
2014-11-19T15:02:38Z pjb: You store the element with (setf aref), or you adjust-array the array. You can't do both at the same time.
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2014-11-19T15:03:12Z pjb: Of course you can wrap both operations in a single function of yours, but notice how adjusting a 2D array in general will not create a single new slot, but a whole column or a whole row!
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2014-11-19T15:04:00Z axion: aha ok.
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2014-11-19T15:05:20Z pjb: schjetne: Notice however, that sometimes some porting may be needed.  One thing is that in old lisps, bindings are always dynamic, so you often have to add special declaration (or thru some macrology, since they're expected to be implicit). Another problem is when you're dealing with an old lisp that is a lisp-1 (again solvable thru macrology).
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2014-11-19T15:06:18Z pjb: schjetne: and finally, in some old lisps, some datatypes allow accessors reserved nowadays for different types.  Notably, (CAR symbol) and (CDR symbol) (with the corresponding RPLACA/RPLACD) were meaningful in some lisps! (cdr symbol) would give the plist.
2014-11-19T15:07:27Z pjb: But I would say that such macrology is good as long as you only want to run a small legacy function. If you had a big legacy system using a lot of those dialect specific features, you'd want to go metalinguistic, and re-implement the old lisp (or indeed, port the code).
2014-11-19T15:07:59Z pjb: Notice how Norvig re-implemented the algorithms in Common Lisp in PAIP, instead of running directly the old code.
2014-11-19T15:08:13Z schjetne: Ah, that's another book on my reading list
2014-11-19T15:08:48Z schjetne: When you say the cdr of a symbol gives a plist, is that a property list of things bound to the symbol?
2014-11-19T15:09:01Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-19T15:09:04Z pjb: clhs symbol-plist
2014-11-19T15:09:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_4.htm
2014-11-19T15:09:23Z pjb: But in old lisps, the symbol name, the symbol value, the symbol functions, etc, were stored on the plist too.
2014-11-19T15:10:30Z drmeister: Does anyone use "magit" on emacs?   It opens COMMIT_EDITMSG to edit a message - how do I save/close that buffer to continue the commit?   I'm committing Common Lisp code.
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2014-11-19T15:10:45Z pjb: I use normal vc.
2014-11-19T15:11:06Z pjb: Mostly: C-x v v
2014-11-19T15:11:52Z oleo: drmeister: normally via C-x C-s
2014-11-19T15:11:56Z oleo: afaik....
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2014-11-19T15:12:00Z schjetne: pjb: I haven't really looked much into all the different symbol cells, I should probably do that.
2014-11-19T15:12:08Z oleo: just like normal....buffer/file
2014-11-19T15:12:48Z pjb: Normally, yes you need to save and close the buffer to perform the commit.
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2014-11-19T15:18:51Z axion: when vector-push-extend needs to resize the underlying storage, how does it do so? increase by 1, by initial storage length, or?
2014-11-19T15:20:30Z Shinmera: !clhs vector-push-extend
2014-11-19T15:20:33Z Shinmera: clhs vector-push-extend
2014-11-19T15:20:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm
2014-11-19T15:20:52Z Shinmera:  "vector-push-extend new-element vector &optional extension" "Extension is the minimum number of elements to be added to vector if it must be extended."
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2014-11-19T15:23:55Z axion: ah, implementation-dependent
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2014-11-19T15:47:40Z drmeister: oleo: When I C-x C-s and then C-c k to kill the window the *magit-process* says I aborted the commit - GRRRR
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2014-11-19T15:57:19Z rhollor: join #perl
2014-11-19T15:57:39Z rhollor: forgot the /
2014-11-19T15:59:06Z rick-monster: chuck a few $ signs in there for good measure
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2014-11-19T16:09:34Z rhollor: does the irc time here changes with daylight savings too? this information is part of a logging program that I'm trying to make
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2014-11-19T16:10:16Z dlowe: rhollor: irc doesn't track time. It's just your client.
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2014-11-19T16:10:42Z dlowe: rhollor: you can request the time from the server with /time
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2014-11-19T16:13:37Z rhollor: dlowe: then in the log files at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp , does that use a daylight savings time? I never dealt with it, so I don't know how to tell
2014-11-19T16:14:37Z dlowe: rhollor: it doesn't say what time zone it's using.
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2014-11-19T16:20:21Z hardenedapple: Is there any way to do something like (step ...) on a macro expansion? I keep coming across macros in books that I know what they're supposed to do, and what they expand into, but I can't easily follow their logic.
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2014-11-19T16:27:04Z drmeister: hardenedapple: One thing you can do is macroexpand-1 which will apply one expansion.
2014-11-19T16:27:52Z drmeister: You can also apply the macro expansion function to an S-expression using funcall.
2014-11-19T16:29:34Z hardenedapple: drmeister: Thanks, but it's mainly that first expansion I'm trying to understand
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2014-11-19T16:43:25Z rhollor: how do I contact the OP here
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2014-11-19T16:50:13Z wasamasa: the owner of this channel?
2014-11-19T16:50:20Z wasamasa: or either of the chanops?
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2014-11-19T16:53:23Z fe[nl]ix: rhollor: ?
2014-11-19T16:54:08Z rhollor: wasamasa: yes
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2014-11-19T16:54:36Z theseb: why in lisp if something can be done just as easily with recursion and iteration do i feel like a failure if i use iteration?  somehow recursion got a rep as being more "proper" yes?
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2014-11-19T16:54:52Z theseb: my guess is in lisp we learn "state" is bad
2014-11-19T16:54:59Z fe[nl]ix: rhollor: what do you want ?
2014-11-19T16:55:05Z wasamasa: rhollor: yes is not a valid answer
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2014-11-19T16:55:18Z Xach: theseb: i think it is more because of personal problems. get over it.
2014-11-19T16:55:30Z wasamasa: rhollor: "Do you prefer apples or bananas?" - "Yes"
2014-11-19T16:55:38Z rhollor: wasamasa: I meant the chanops, sorry?
2014-11-19T16:55:51Z theseb: Xach: lol....but really...i think even SICP frowns on too many states changes
2014-11-19T16:56:10Z Xach: theseb: SICP is not the first and last word on programming in Lisp.
2014-11-19T16:56:51Z theseb: Xach: my impression is people that prefer recursion are trying to train us for some future utopia where were all doing 100% pure functional programming...just a guess
2014-11-19T16:57:02Z theseb: Xach: i'm cool with it
2014-11-19T16:57:07Z wasamasa: theseb: with 100% TCO
2014-11-19T16:57:15Z dlowe: Avoiding state can eliminate whole class of stateful bugs, replacing them with a whole class of stateless bugs.
2014-11-19T16:57:18Z theseb: wasamasa: TCO?
2014-11-19T16:57:27Z theseb: dlowe: lol
2014-11-19T16:57:32Z rhollor: fe[nl]ix: that link at the top takes up the |contact part of it too, so when I click on it, it goes to an invalid url. It botheres the hell out of me
2014-11-19T16:57:36Z wasamasa: theseb: tail-call optimization, transforms tail-recursion into iteration
2014-11-19T16:57:45Z wasamasa: theseb: it's a trait of languages like scheme, haskell, ...
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2014-11-19T16:57:59Z theseb: dlowe: well i'm not a functional weenie but i assume functional is less error prone or easier to debug..it is *at least* more amenable to multiprocessing
2014-11-19T16:58:05Z wasamasa: theseb: otherwise they could only encourage recursion when used with accumulators/trampolines
2014-11-19T16:58:13Z wasamasa: theseb: since you'd otherwise blow the stack easily
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2014-11-19T16:59:02Z dlowe: theseb: it's easier to test. it's more amenable to multiprocessing. it's not easier to debug.
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2014-11-19T17:00:02Z fe[nl]ix: rhollor: fix your client to autodetect URLs better
2014-11-19T17:00:13Z fe[nl]ix: mine has no problems
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2014-11-19T17:03:21Z rhollor: well, for me it's like that on both the freenode webchat service and colloquy on two different computers. so I assumed it was a server problem
2014-11-19T17:04:09Z |3b|: IRC is older than URLs, it is just sending you text
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2014-11-19T17:06:51Z fe[nl]ix: rhollor: the channel banner is just a string, in which clients usually try to autodetect URLs
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2014-11-19T17:07:16Z rhollor: okay then
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2014-11-19T17:08:27Z nyef: rhollor: Specifically, the brockets < and > are not valid URL syntax, and thus are often used to delimit URLs amongst other text.
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2014-11-19T17:33:01Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-11-19T17:34:28Z beach: As an example of HIR, this form: (block a (ff (lambda (x) (if x (return-from a 234) (1+ x))))) generates this code: http://metamodular.com/hir-example.png
2014-11-19T17:35:04Z beach: Blue ellipses are multiple value variables.
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2014-11-19T17:35:35Z beach: Also notice the "unwind" instruction, and the F->M for conversion from a fixed number of values to multiple values.
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2014-11-19T17:36:50Z nyef: ... And by this point the block name A has been discarded, as the overall semantics are incorporated into the graph?
2014-11-19T17:36:50Z beach: Tail call optimization can be done when there is a FUNCALL followed by a RET connected by a blue variable.
2014-11-19T17:36:57Z beach: Yes.
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2014-11-19T17:41:04Z beach: It is amazing to me how much the Graphviz representation helps in understanding what is going on.
2014-11-19T17:41:20Z beach: But of course, it is useful only for fairly small examples.
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2014-11-19T17:45:56Z |3b|: beach: if A were closed over, it would still show in the graph?
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2014-11-19T17:46:51Z beach: |3b|: A?  It doesn't show in the graph as it is.
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2014-11-19T17:47:52Z |3b|: hmm, actually i guess it is closed over
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2014-11-19T17:47:57Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-19T17:47:57Z |3b| isn't sure that is correct
2014-11-19T17:48:21Z |3b|: well, in a more general case
2014-11-19T17:48:21Z beach: Well, there is a non-local control transfer from the inner lambda to outside it.
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2014-11-19T17:48:38Z beach: I think this is it.
2014-11-19T17:48:39Z |3b|: if that were in a function i'm not sure it is correct
2014-11-19T17:49:12Z beach: If the entire thing is in a function, then the UNWIND would refer to the ENTER instruction of that function.
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2014-11-19T17:49:45Z |3b|: if FF called that function recursively and accumulated the closures, and eventually picked one to call, it would need to know which block to return from
2014-11-19T17:50:16Z beach: Correct.
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2014-11-19T17:50:25Z |3b|: though if that identity is included in the ENTER and UNWIND, that would work too
2014-11-19T17:50:46Z beach: The UNWIND contains a reference to the corresponding ENTER
2014-11-19T17:50:57Z nyef: Does it even make sense to discuss compiling a form outside of the context of a function?
2014-11-19T17:51:00Z beach: But it is NIL in this example because it is outside any enter.
2014-11-19T17:51:08Z beach: nyef: Maybe not.
2014-11-19T17:51:15Z beach: For now I am allowing it.
2014-11-19T17:51:30Z |3b|: so BLOCK can generate an ENTER?
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2014-11-19T17:51:42Z beach: No.
2014-11-19T17:51:53Z beach: But BLOCK "belongs" to an ENTER.
2014-11-19T17:53:21Z ggole: What's the "enclose"?
2014-11-19T17:53:33Z beach: ggole: It creates a closure.
2014-11-19T17:53:39Z beach: Name taken from CLtL2.
2014-11-19T17:53:44Z |3b|: (block a (block b (block c (ff (lambda (x) (if x (return-from c 1) (return-from b 2)))) (side-effect)) (side-effect)) (side-effect))
2014-11-19T17:53:46Z ggole: Ah.
2014-11-19T17:53:50Z |3b|: is that 3 ENTERs?
2014-11-19T17:54:04Z beach: No.
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2014-11-19T17:54:44Z beach: |3b|: Let me run that example and see what it generates.
2014-11-19T17:54:52Z |3b| guesses i should read the docs at some point, since i don't see how it works just from the pictures:)
2014-11-19T17:54:54Z beach: I might have to do it after dinner though.
2014-11-19T17:55:30Z |3b|: no rush, i don't have time to do anything serious with SICL any time soon :(
2014-11-19T17:55:52Z |3b|: was just wondering how the nlx scoping problems i had with my last compiler translated
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2014-11-19T17:56:33Z nyef shudders in memory of some of the NLX scoping and multi-value handling things he's dealt with.
2014-11-19T17:57:30Z |3b| at least didn't have multiple values to worry about
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2014-11-19T17:57:37Z |3b|: never got that far
2014-11-19T17:57:42Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back later.
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2014-11-19T18:54:45Z rhollor: Xach: it's me from yesterday asking about SLIME. I found that the problem was, even though I installed emacs 24.4 into /usr/local/bin, there was already an emacs 22 in /usr/bin, and SLIME only works for 23 and above. Thought you should know
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2014-11-19T19:00:24Z pnpuff: rhollor: good to know: take a look at the whereis tool and at the slime documentation for the Emacs supported versions. You ve to add the slime path to the .emacs file anyway.
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2014-11-19T19:01:22Z pnpuff: rhollor: everything is well explained if you read the docs. :-)
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2014-11-19T19:06:56Z rhollor: yeah, I've done all of that alreaddy. Its working fine now. I didn't know I had emacs installed already, but now I know
2014-11-19T19:08:09Z pnpuff: very good!
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2014-11-19T19:09:48Z theseb: loop really shows the Worse Is Better at work....unlike C guys...they didn't just make a hack that works for 80% of cases
2014-11-19T19:10:09Z |3b|: they made one that works for 90%? :p
2014-11-19T19:10:10Z theseb: I read in Practical Lisp that loop is like a mini language that tries to handle all cases that may come up yes?
2014-11-19T19:10:30Z |3b|: it may try, but it doesn't
2014-11-19T19:10:31Z theseb: lisp doesn't add "hacks" to language...they do things right dernnit
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2014-11-19T19:11:24Z |3b|: it would be much more useful if it specified some way to extend it (though that might not have been practical when it was specified)
2014-11-19T19:11:28Z pnpuff: |3b|: loop is just a looping construct simple to use and very powerful. No more.
2014-11-19T19:11:46Z pnpuff: ops ...theseb
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2014-11-19T19:14:48Z theseb: pnpuff: yes simple to use unless one wants to be a language lawyer and memorize all the intricasies of it
2014-11-19T19:15:22Z theseb: |3b|: maybe it is only my ignorance but in all my years of using C I don't recall ever thinking..."Gee I wish the for loop could be extended some how"
2014-11-19T19:15:40Z _death: blub
2014-11-19T19:15:48Z theseb: _death: yes
2014-11-19T19:16:01Z theseb: _death: if all you have is hammer every problem looks like a nail ? :)
2014-11-19T19:16:28Z foom: theseb: that's because even in C, people use iterators.
2014-11-19T19:16:35Z nyef: If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a thumb?
2014-11-19T19:16:36Z |3b|: theseb: but once you used CL, did you find C's for loop lacking?
2014-11-19T19:16:38Z _death: if all you have is C every iteration problem looks like for/while/do/goto
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2014-11-19T19:17:04Z |3b|: or the available set of looping constructs, if not just for
2014-11-19T19:17:23Z rhollor: nyef: that's more like it
2014-11-19T19:17:47Z nyef: If all you have is C, every iteration problem looks like an opportunity to abuse the preprocessor.
2014-11-19T19:17:59Z theseb: |3b|: i haven't used lisp enough yet to answer that
2014-11-19T19:18:37Z nyef: If you're using C in a "smart" development environment, almost any abuse of the preprocessor will break the smarts of the environment, occasionally spectacularly.
2014-11-19T19:19:09Z |3b|: to some extent the problem is that LOOP has better ways to do /some/ things, so it is more obvious that others are missing than if you were doing everything the same, bad way
2014-11-19T19:19:13Z foom: In C, you'd write something like: for (Foo* it = start; it != end; it=next_foo(it)).
2014-11-19T19:19:30Z nyef: ("No, my source code does not contain 127 functions of no arguments named DEFOP that return int.")
2014-11-19T19:19:51Z foom: In C++, you have a generic "++" operator, that works on all iterator types.
2014-11-19T19:20:23Z |3b|: theseb: when you can easily find the minimum/maximum of a value, you start to want to find the value that minimizes/maximizes some function
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2014-11-19T19:20:35Z nyef: Would people who work on iterators be the iterati?
2014-11-19T19:20:43Z |3b|: when you can easily loop over an array, you want to loop over your own data structures
2014-11-19T19:20:54Z foom: In CL, you have loop, which encapsulates the knowledge of how to iterate over a couple of random types inside of itself, but for the rest, you'd have to write it out yourself, like you would in C.
2014-11-19T19:21:04Z Shinmera: nyef: illuminati+iterati = illiterati?
2014-11-19T19:21:19Z theseb: |3b|: sure...makes sense
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2014-11-19T19:22:17Z Xach: rhollor: thanks
2014-11-19T19:23:10Z pnpuff: ok, but between different languages there is a different level of abstraction... often it's not required a direct circuite level call to perform every program control flow operation
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2014-11-19T19:29:34Z theseb: pnpuff: "circuit level call" ?
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2014-11-19T19:38:03Z beach: |3b|: (let ((y 0)) (block a (block b (block c (ff (lambda (x) (if x (return-from c 1) (return-from b 2)))) (setq y 1)) (setq y 2)) (setq y 3))) generates: http://metamodular.com/hir-example2.png
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2014-11-19T19:38:43Z beach: |3b|: Sorry, I can't stay.  Got to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2014-11-19T19:38:57Z rhollor: I agree with theseb kind of. For most languages, all that you nedd is for and while, but for-in comes in handy too
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2014-11-19T19:40:13Z Shinmera: A lot of things do come in handy and in lisp people are used to being able to bend constructs to their needs
2014-11-19T19:40:26Z Shinmera: So having something that is practically inextensible, like loop, is rather jarring.
2014-11-19T19:40:49Z nyef: Shinmera: You mean like FORMAT?
2014-11-19T19:40:55Z Shinmera: format too yes
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2014-11-19T19:41:02Z |3b|: rhollor: sure, but all you /need/ is xor, anything else is just sugar :)
2014-11-19T19:41:22Z |3b|: (or is it NAND? don't remember which ops were turing complete)
2014-11-19T19:41:44Z rhollor: I;m not doubting the usefullness of loop, but I feel like half of those are like nipples on a man, not needed much, unless you're into that
2014-11-19T19:42:08Z rhollor: |3b|: it's nand
2014-11-19T19:42:53Z Shinmera: Why don't you exchange your time spent wailing about it here for time spent programming so you learn to appreciate loop's options?
2014-11-19T19:43:10Z |3b| doesn't think anyone was wailing
2014-11-19T19:43:13Z theseb: Shinmera: but which is more fun?
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2014-11-19T19:43:49Z theseb: |3b|: i for one was benefitting from the convo
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2014-11-19T19:43:55Z Shinmera: |3b|: Probably too strong an adjective, but idk what kind of point there is trying to debate if loop's options are useful or not.
2014-11-19T19:43:59Z rhollor agrees with theseb
2014-11-19T19:45:14Z rhollor: As far as I've heard, having issues with loop isn't new. some people think it shouldn't even be used in any professional code
2014-11-19T19:45:43Z Shinmera: And that debate has been redone for decades without really any point to it. Use it if you find it useful, don't if you do not.
2014-11-19T19:46:05Z H4ns: rhollor: i've seen it be used plenty of professional code.  hating loop is a very common, say, beginner's mistake
2014-11-19T19:46:06Z |3b|: Shinmera: wasn't so much about whether it was useful, as that it wasn't a magic silver bullet that does everything :)
2014-11-19T19:46:10Z rhollor: many feel that it goes against a lot of CL style
2014-11-19T19:46:21Z H4ns: rhollor: many beginners, right.
2014-11-19T19:46:40Z |3b|: beginners and people that don't like CL
2014-11-19T19:46:44Z H4ns: rhollor: over time, most people appreciate that cl is not as narrow minded as it might appear in the beginning.
2014-11-19T19:46:47Z Xach: rhollor: Those who feel strongly about it tend to stop using CL entirely.
2014-11-19T19:46:54Z theseb: H4ns: i'm a beginner and I must say I had the impression recursion was more macho and "lispy" than iteration
2014-11-19T19:47:05Z Xach: theseb: With experience your impression will change.
2014-11-19T19:47:11Z Shinmera: "Recursion: the manly way to program"
2014-11-19T19:47:13Z H4ns: theseb: right.  another, say, mistake :)
2014-11-19T19:47:48Z Xach: CL is not much like, say, Java, where people who don't like it still have to use it for their job. That is pretty rare.
2014-11-19T19:47:52Z nyef: Recursion is more schemeful than iteration. Common Lisp elevates iteration to such a high level as to dedicate an entire chapter of the specification to it.
2014-11-19T19:48:19Z Xach: That's why there are so many dedicated weirdos using CL!
2014-11-19T19:48:28Z Xach can't wait until the next weirdo gathering
2014-11-19T19:48:37Z rhollor: H4ns: I don't hate loop. I'm just saying that I don't find a lot of use for all features. I actually like that loop is very versatile, because, if the need arises, I will have options about how I am to express my statements
2014-11-19T19:49:09Z rhollor: Xach: wouldn't this qualify?
2014-11-19T19:49:12Z alpha-: is there some builtin alternative to perl s/// in common lisp ? i.e. replace all occurences of "a" with "b" in a given string
2014-11-19T19:49:23Z Xach: alpha-: for single elements, yes.
2014-11-19T19:49:40Z Xach: alpha-: but nothing like "replace foo with x", where the lengths are different.
2014-11-19T19:49:57Z alpha-: kind of sucks:/
2014-11-19T19:50:00Z H4ns: rhollor: good approach - in the end, it boils down to making tasteful picks from the vast number of options.
2014-11-19T19:50:04Z Xach: alpha-: for generic substitution, cl-ppcre is the tool fo choice.
2014-11-19T19:50:04Z alpha-: Xach how to do for single elements though?
2014-11-19T19:50:11Z rhollor: H4ns: versatility is my favortie thing about Perl and CL
2014-11-19T19:50:14Z Xach: alpha-: substitute
2014-11-19T19:50:16Z dlowe: alpha-: if you want perl-like stuff, grab the cl-ppcre library
2014-11-19T19:50:22Z H4ns: alpha-: are you looking for cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all?
2014-11-19T19:50:22Z alpha-: ah
2014-11-19T19:50:31Z Xach: rhollor: Qualify as what?
2014-11-19T19:50:33Z dlowe: and optionally cl-interpol
2014-11-19T19:50:43Z alpha-: H4ns I need something to replace spaces with nothing
2014-11-19T19:50:43Z dlowe: which will give you #?/pattern/
2014-11-19T19:50:51Z alpha-: s/ //
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2014-11-19T19:50:56Z rhollor: alpha: make it a goal to write your own
2014-11-19T19:51:20Z H4ns: alpha-: (remove #\space "bla fasel")
2014-11-19T19:51:33Z rhollor: Xach: as a weirdo gathering
2014-11-19T19:51:47Z alpha-: H4ns that's wonderful
2014-11-19T19:51:50Z alpha-: thanks
2014-11-19T19:51:54Z Xach: rhollor: the non-virtual ones add a certain something.
2014-11-19T19:52:16Z Shinmera: You can't feel beards over IRC
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2014-11-19T19:53:11Z Grue`: (remove-if (lambda (char) (cl-unicode:has-property char "WhiteSpace")) string) ;for all types of whitespace
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2014-11-19T19:53:45Z theseb: Xach: with your CL skillz you need to make a startup and cash out like Paul Graham
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2014-11-19T19:54:14Z H4ns: graham does not cash out on cl skillz
2014-11-19T19:54:34Z theseb: indirectly he did
2014-11-19T19:54:38Z nyef: Graham is famous for not actually liking CL.
2014-11-19T19:54:59Z oleo: jep
2014-11-19T19:55:03Z Xach: theseb: I did that already!
2014-11-19T19:55:07Z theseb: nyef: um..no..he wrote a book on CL and used it at his Viaweb co
2014-11-19T19:55:15Z theseb: Xach: really? gtfo! I'm jealous
2014-11-19T19:55:18Z Xach: theseb: yes, and complained all the time.
2014-11-19T19:55:20Z oleo: yahoo!
2014-11-19T19:55:29Z nyef: theseb: He's famous for those as well.
2014-11-19T19:55:33Z nyef: minion: graham crackers?
2014-11-19T19:55:33Z minion: graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
2014-11-19T19:55:45Z oleo: arc
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2014-11-19T19:55:47Z theseb: Xach: i could put with a lot of complainin for a few mil
2014-11-19T19:56:04Z Xach: I'm sure.
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2014-11-19T19:56:45Z oleo: too schemey a dude, but anyways i like i like......
2014-11-19T19:56:49Z oleo: eheh
2014-11-19T19:56:55Z oleo: :)
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2014-11-19T20:05:24Z rhollor: oleo: not schmey, Common Lispy
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2014-11-19T20:06:40Z oleo: erm, i meant graham!
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2014-11-19T20:07:02Z oleo: welp, dunni maybe my impression is wrong....
2014-11-19T20:07:17Z oleo: he has many cl stuff but then again i see scheme stuff as well....
2014-11-19T20:07:54Z shka: hi
2014-11-19T20:08:03Z shka: i have a class with two parents
2014-11-19T20:08:46Z shka: i want to add a method that will take instance of those classes
2014-11-19T20:09:09Z shka: but now, how can i control which method will be executed first?
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2014-11-19T20:09:51Z alpha-: most specific specialization wins
2014-11-19T20:10:01Z H4ns: shka: you cannot control it.  superclass methods are executed in the order in which the superclasses are listed.
2014-11-19T20:10:07Z rhollor: oleo: well, I don't know who this guy is. I was just trying to make a funny. At first I thought you were saying that schemes, like planning. Now...not so sure
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2014-11-19T20:10:25Z shka: H4ns: thanks for quick answer
2014-11-19T20:10:32Z shka: but it is a bit pitty
2014-11-19T20:10:39Z shka: oh well, i can live with that
2014-11-19T20:11:49Z rhollor: what's a stack overflow?
2014-11-19T20:12:06Z rhollor: I hear that a lot but never knew what it was
2014-11-19T20:12:29Z nyef: It's a web site for asking programming questions. Or when you put too many trays in one pile in a cafeteria.
2014-11-19T20:13:25Z Grue`: actually you can use a method combination that supports :most-specific-last, then you can have your methods called in reverse order
2014-11-19T20:13:33Z rhollor: computer science sense, please
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2014-11-19T20:14:01Z shka: Grue`: good to know
2014-11-19T20:14:18Z shka: Grue`: i would ask this question on the stack overflow
2014-11-19T20:14:25Z shka: for the ultimate recursion
2014-11-19T20:14:27Z Shinmera: rhollor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_overflow wow that was hard.
2014-11-19T20:14:52Z shka: Grue`: sorry, i didnt want to highlight you
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2014-11-19T20:15:37Z Grue`: shka: probably a progn method-combination if you only care about side effects
2014-11-19T20:16:13Z shka: yeah, that's what happens
2014-11-19T20:16:27Z rhollor: Shinmera: I've lready read through that, but didn't understand it well
2014-11-19T20:16:32Z shka: but actually, when i think about it now, i should solve this in other way
2014-11-19T20:17:11Z shka: rhollor: oh just try to make infinite recursion in C
2014-11-19T20:17:30Z shka: or in common lisp (but tco makes it less obvious)
2014-11-19T20:18:14Z rhollor: shka: I don't like stack overflow much. WhenI ask a question, instead of answering I get three grammar corrections, four downvotes, and a snide comment that has nothing to do with the topic
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2014-11-19T20:18:43Z rhollor: the websit of ourse
2014-11-19T20:19:00Z shka: to be completly honest, i suspect that does down votes have a valid reasons
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2014-11-19T20:19:16Z rhollor: shka: at what point does a stack overflow occur?
2014-11-19T20:19:48Z shka: do you know what call stack is?
2014-11-19T20:19:49Z Grue`: your question doesn't fit stack overflow. please ask it on [another stackexchange site that nobody visits]
2014-11-19T20:19:57Z shka: or operating system stack?
2014-11-19T20:20:31Z shka: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_stack
2014-11-19T20:20:33Z shka: here
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2014-11-19T20:20:39Z shka: it has limited size
2014-11-19T20:20:43Z shka: allocate more calls
2014-11-19T20:21:04Z shka: booom stack overflow and os saves the day with segfault
2014-11-19T20:21:55Z shka: that's how it works in the c world
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2014-11-19T20:24:14Z rhollor: so, if use too much recursion, I can have a stack overflow on my hands?
2014-11-19T20:24:34Z shka: yup
2014-11-19T20:24:38Z shka: try it in c
2014-11-19T20:25:14Z shka: in common lisp, i don't even know if implementations actually use their own stack…
2014-11-19T20:25:34Z shka: H4ns: well, maybe you know?
2014-11-19T20:25:58Z nyef: shka: It varies. SBCL tends to maintain three or four stacks per thread.
2014-11-19T20:26:18Z shka: ok
2014-11-19T20:26:27Z shka: that's interesting
2014-11-19T20:26:56Z shka: rhollor: but no matter how language works, machine always has finite memory
2014-11-19T20:27:15Z nyef: ... might be two or three, actually.
2014-11-19T20:27:29Z shka: not that important
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2014-11-19T20:28:00Z nyef: In this context, probably not, but in another context it could be critical.
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2014-11-19T20:28:28Z shka: certianly
2014-11-19T20:29:08Z shka: https://github.com/wybory2014/Kalkulator1/blob/master/Kalkulator1/printProtocol.cs
2014-11-19T20:29:35Z shka: ;-]
2014-11-19T20:29:45Z shka: 2k loc method
2014-11-19T20:29:50Z shka: where is your god now?
2014-11-19T20:30:28Z rhollor: right here
2014-11-19T20:30:40Z rhollor: I am the Lord of Light
2014-11-19T20:31:09Z nyef: Where is my god now? Nowhere near any programming language where the source files have an extension of .cs.
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2014-11-19T20:31:59Z rhollor: Unfortunately I shall have to burn you for my heathenistic sayings, but I bless you with my fiery heartuntil the moment you die
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2014-11-19T20:34:07Z jasom: Is it allowed to use with-slots on an unbound slot?
2014-11-19T20:34:20Z stassats: sure
2014-11-19T20:35:15Z jasom: ah, I need to bind it in initialize-instance before I invoke call-next-method
2014-11-19T20:36:06Z stassats: with-slots doesn't bind anything
2014-11-19T20:36:49Z jasom: stassats: right, but you can setf inside it, which is what I was doing.
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2014-11-19T20:37:45Z stassats: it's just a way to call slot-value
2014-11-19T20:41:28Z Shinmera: Well, I think that's enough for today. http://shinmera.tymoon.eu/public/screenshot-2014.11.19-21:41:07.png
2014-11-19T20:43:31Z Grue`: everyone loves pepper brush
2014-11-19T20:44:26Z rhollor: lol
2014-11-19T20:45:29Z nyef: Shinmera: Nice!
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2014-11-19T20:45:54Z Shinmera: I still need to figure out a nice way to specify the order the tool and brush options appear in
2014-11-19T20:46:08Z Shinmera: but the widgets at least get generated and displayed properly now
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2014-11-19T20:47:48Z Shinmera: Hmm, maybe just a (:display foo bar baz) class-option that manually overrides that. That could work nicely.
2014-11-19T20:47:55Z nyef: Oh, to have the spare time and focus to be able to help as more than an occasional sounding board and supplier of encouragement...
2014-11-19T20:47:56Z Shinmera: But, I'll get to that tomorrow.
2014-11-19T20:49:01Z Shinmera: nyef: I'm still rather happy about the way brushes work, in case you want to take a looksie at some simple stuff https://github.com/Shinmera/parasol/blob/master/tools/brush/basic.lisp
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2014-11-19T20:53:22Z nyef: Shinmera: That's kindof neat. Are you using some non-lisp object as a drawing canvas here?
2014-11-19T20:53:31Z ejbs: Does anyone know what happened to stmx? https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx/ returns 404
2014-11-19T20:53:57Z Shinmera: nyef: the target is a QPainter, usually, yes.
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2014-11-19T20:54:36Z Shinmera: ejbs: The website and sourceforge are still up. No idea about the github repo
2014-11-19T20:55:46Z shka: nyef: this is code of server that was responsible for elections in poland
2014-11-19T20:55:49Z alpha-: green in my pepper
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2014-11-19T20:56:33Z ejbs: Shinmera: Yeah, that's  kind of scary.
2014-11-19T20:57:43Z Shinmera: ejbs: Looks like the author's account is gone entirely..
2014-11-19T20:58:19Z Grue`: there might be forks
2014-11-19T20:58:39Z Shinmera: Grue`: searching github for stmx brings absolutely zero results
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2014-11-19T21:06:09Z Xach: weird. i can still do a "pull" on it.
2014-11-19T21:06:17Z rhollor: is there any way to do multiline comments in CL
2014-11-19T21:06:29Z Xach: rhollor: #| ... |#, where ... can contain newlines.
2014-11-19T21:06:46Z Xach: rhollor: it is pretty common to have multiple lines prefixed with some number of ;s, too.
2014-11-19T21:07:20Z rhollor: Xach: thanks.
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2014-11-19T21:07:54Z Xach: If you'd like to get a feel for CL, try grabbing the source of cl-ppcre and reading through it.
2014-11-19T21:08:05Z Xach: It does a useful job and touches a lot of CL features
2014-11-19T21:08:16Z Xach: It is not exactly simple, but it is interesting and rewarding.
2014-11-19T21:08:44Z Xach: ejbs: what prompts the interest in stmx?
2014-11-19T21:08:55Z Xach: Do you want a copy of the repo?
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2014-11-19T21:09:52Z rhollor: Shinmera: in the README for parasol it says Linux is a requirement. Is it strictly Linux, or Unix, because I have a Mac
2014-11-19T21:10:24Z Shinmera: rhollor: Currently I am developing only on Linux
2014-11-19T21:10:44Z Shinmera: rhollor: I'm intending to make it work on all three major platforms once it's out of its infant stage.
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2014-11-19T21:14:32Z rhollor: but have you tried it with OSX? is it confirmed not to work? because I don't want to go to the trouble of trying something and find it doesn't work
2014-11-19T21:15:11Z Shinmera: I don't currently own a mac, so I don't know. I wouldn't recommend going through the trouble /now/ anyway since there's not much to see.
2014-11-19T21:16:23Z rhollor: *snap* dang it! I kind of wanted to paint with peppers!
2014-11-19T21:16:40Z ejbs: Xach: Nah, got one from Quicklisp, it's just a bit worrisome (sp?) when a library disappears like that. Thanks for asking
2014-11-19T21:16:43Z Shinmera: You can do that in Gimp :)
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2014-11-19T21:18:09Z Xach: ejbs: yes, i agree. i wonder what's up.
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2014-11-19T21:20:04Z Shinmera: rhollor: I'll be sure to see about testing it on mac soon so you can experience full pepper action.
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2014-11-19T21:21:36Z pjb: minion: memo for hardenedapple: you can step the macro-function: (step (funcall (macro-function 'cond) '(cond ((= 1 a) 'yes) ((= 2 b) 'no) (t 'hi)) nil))
2014-11-19T21:21:36Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell hardenedapple when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-11-19T21:48:16Z rhollor: I've got to go guys, see you
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2014-11-19T23:10:25Z pillton: Is anyone having difficulties resolving lispworks.com?
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2014-11-19T23:11:22Z Xach: pillton: i am seeing a long delay so far
2014-11-19T23:11:30Z Xach: timed out
2014-11-19T23:11:59Z pillton: Xach: Cheers.
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2014-11-19T23:16:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: pillton, yeah
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2014-11-19T23:29:51Z ilhami: hey can you lisp ?:D
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2014-11-19T23:32:08Z pjb: We can.
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2014-11-19T23:33:02Z ilhami: ok I want to learn it as well he he
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2014-11-19T23:34:10Z pjb: ilhami: have a look at http://cliki.net/ and http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2014-11-19T23:35:04Z ilhami: ok thanks. I will later. :)
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