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2014-11-14T02:34:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm
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2014-11-14T03:28:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-14T03:28:44Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-11-14T03:29:04Z nyef: Oh, for the... Our spambot of the day is "jortanna".
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2014-11-14T05:15:57Z drmeister: beach: It took me all day to get back to this but it works now - thanks for the fix!
2014-11-14T05:16:32Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/VMVOLdE
2014-11-14T05:17:12Z drmeister: That's for:  (let ((x 1) (y 2)) (+ x y))
2014-11-14T05:19:37Z drmeister: What are the corresponding functions for HIR?
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2014-11-14T05:22:58Z beach: drmeister: You should be able to translate the AST to HIR by using the system in the directory AST-to-HIR.  I think it is called cleavir-ast-to-hir.
2014-11-14T05:23:51Z beach: drmeister: In the next few days I will be making some modifications to that system.  I hope they won't affect you.
2014-11-14T05:24:26Z drmeister: That's ok, I'm just getting my feet wet.  I have a meeting on Tuesday that I need to prepare for so I can't dive into programming just yet.
2014-11-14T05:24:40Z beach: OK, that works.
2014-11-14T05:24:53Z drmeister: What I've been doing over the past few days is my basal level of programming.
2014-11-14T05:24:54Z beach: Did you find the problem with your special bindings?
2014-11-14T05:25:35Z drmeister: Yeah - I had screwed up the compile-time side effects of defparameter/defvar/defconstant - there were none.
2014-11-14T05:26:01Z beach: I see.
2014-11-14T05:26:16Z drmeister: The reason why I could still compile my source code is I LOAD everything before I COMPILE-FILE everything.
2014-11-14T05:26:34Z beach: Ah, so the LOAD took care of the side effects?
2014-11-14T05:26:37Z drmeister: The problem only surfaced when ASDF compiled SICL code.
2014-11-14T05:26:45Z drmeister: Yeah.
2014-11-14T05:27:32Z beach: One thing you should think of:
2014-11-14T05:28:01Z beach: When you translate a form to an AST, an error is signaled if a symbol can't be found in the global env.
2014-11-14T05:28:13Z beach: But there are restarts that you can use.
2014-11-14T05:28:20Z drmeister: It was a conjunction of problems.  I'm using ECL code - the ECL code does tests for a byte code compiler that I don't have and calls a function called REGISTER-GLOBAL that should register a symbol as being special in the compile-time environment.
2014-11-14T05:28:45Z drmeister: I don't have a special compile-time environment.  I just modify my runtime environment.     It's all about environments.
2014-11-14T05:28:46Z beach: I myself use the restart CONSIDER-SPECIAL when doing test code.
2014-11-14T05:29:12Z beach: All about environments, indeed.
2014-11-14T05:29:22Z beach: That's why SICL has first-class global environments.
2014-11-14T05:29:33Z beach: It will make my life SO much easier.
2014-11-14T05:29:49Z drmeister: I'm beginning to appreciate them.
2014-11-14T05:30:30Z beach: It is clear to me that the people who wrote the standard thought about that possibility, but I know of no system that actually does it that way.
2014-11-14T05:30:57Z drmeister: I tried to generate ASTs for more complex code - I immediately ran into problems with lexical environments as you said I would.
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2014-11-14T05:31:00Z beach: I guess all existing systems evolved from CLtL1 code.
2014-11-14T05:31:20Z drmeister: I don't understand
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2014-11-14T05:31:34Z beach: I was talking to myself.
2014-11-14T05:32:00Z beach: I think we can figure out how to best solve the problems with lexical environments together.
2014-11-14T05:32:07Z drmeister: If I use my lexical environments - what will they have to provide cleavir?
2014-11-14T05:32:33Z beach: You will have to write methods on function-info and variable-info on those.
2014-11-14T05:33:00Z beach: It should be straightforward to do.
2014-11-14T05:33:06Z drmeister: I know variable-info and function-info  -  but variable-info has to provide info like types and ignore etc - correct?
2014-11-14T05:33:19Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-14T05:33:31Z beach: But it's safe to provide a type of T.
2014-11-14T05:34:49Z drmeister: Well, I might as well do it right.  How does the type info get into the environment?  Cleavir processes the S-expressions and reads the declares - does Cleavir augment the lexical environments?
2014-11-14T05:35:12Z beach: Yes, there are generic functions for that too.
2014-11-14T05:35:18Z beach: You have to supply methods on them.
2014-11-14T05:35:43Z drmeister: Where are those defined?
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2014-11-14T05:36:00Z beach: Cleavir/Environment/augmentation-functions.lisp
2014-11-14T05:36:09Z beach: Their names are add-...
2014-11-14T05:36:53Z beach: They are all side-effect free.  They return an augmented environment.
2014-11-14T05:38:10Z drmeister: Is that it then?  Implement the functions to augment the environments and interrogate them?
2014-11-14T05:38:19Z beach: In default-augmentation-classes, you an see how Cleavir itself implements those functions.
2014-11-14T05:38:29Z beach: Yes, I think that's it.
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2014-11-14T05:40:06Z beach: The ...-info and add-... functions are basically a CLOS version of a more complete protocol than the one suggested in CLtL2.
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2014-11-14T05:40:54Z drmeister: When you augment lexical environments, it's one symbol at a time - correct?   (let ((x 1) (y 2) (z 3)) ...) would generate three calls to augment the environment - correct?
2014-11-14T05:41:08Z beach: Correct.
2014-11-14T05:43:16Z drmeister: My environments have a ribcage structure.   The LET example that I just gave you would generate one VALUE-ENVIRONMENT containing three bindings.   I'm thinking I'll keep adding bindings to the current VALUE-ENVIRONMENT until a different type of symbol is added to the environment (like a tag body symbol or symbol-macro).
2014-11-14T05:43:41Z drmeister: If that doesn't make sense, don't worry about it.   It will shake out when I sit down and actually try to implement this.
2014-11-14T05:43:49Z beach: You are creating unnecessary work for yourself by doing that I think.
2014-11-14T05:44:09Z beach: Are you worried about performance or memory use?
2014-11-14T05:44:16Z drmeister: I may be - but it works well for the CL interpreter that bootstraps everything.
2014-11-14T05:44:17Z beach: Wait until you get into optimizations.
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2014-11-14T05:45:10Z drmeister: A VALUE-ENVIRONMENT maps to a single VALUE-FRAME, an activation frame that stores three values.
2014-11-14T05:45:40Z drmeister: For this example.
2014-11-14T05:45:48Z beach: You can do what you want, but it will be more code, more special cases, and more things to maintain.
2014-11-14T05:46:15Z drmeister: I acknowledge that I may have overcomplicated things but it seemed like a good idea at the time.  I got it from the book Lisp In Small Pieces.
2014-11-14T05:46:48Z beach: Computing resources looked different when that book was written.
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2014-11-14T05:47:43Z drmeister: I thought it was supposed to map well to processor caches.
2014-11-14T05:47:43Z beach: By the way, you know that my wife created the English version, right?
2014-11-14T05:47:52Z beach: ... of LiSP.
2014-11-14T05:48:09Z drmeister: No, I did not.
2014-11-14T05:48:38Z drmeister: Does she program?
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2014-11-14T05:48:45Z beach: Not anymore.
2014-11-14T05:48:55Z beach: Never did very much really.
2014-11-14T05:49:13Z beach: I am telling you, the environment functions will consume very little resources compared to the subsequent optimizations.
2014-11-14T05:49:33Z beach: Optimizing the cache performance there won't make epsilon difference in the end.
2014-11-14T05:49:56Z Bike: aren't the add- functions compile time stuff
2014-11-14T05:50:11Z beach: Yes, they are.  Why?
2014-11-14T05:50:13Z drmeister: Right, but I need environments that will interoperate with my interpreter.  Otherwise bye bye bootstrapping.
2014-11-14T05:50:44Z beach: drmeister: Your environment can not handle adding one variable at a time?
2014-11-14T05:50:45Z Bike: beach: just wanted to confirm my idea that this is pointless to optimize.
2014-11-14T05:50:53Z beach: Ah, yes.
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2014-11-14T05:51:56Z beach: drmeister: Anyway, I should not get involved in how you do your programming.
2014-11-14T05:52:03Z beach: So I'll drop it now.
2014-11-14T05:53:11Z beach: Bike: There is a point to be made for compilation times to be reasonable.  Even so, the quadratic (or worse) behavior of some optimization algorithms will dominate compilation times.
2014-11-14T05:53:25Z drmeister: Sure, they can but I'll probably lump bindings of a kind LET/TAGBODY/SYMBOL-MACRO together
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2014-11-14T05:53:39Z Bike: yeah i know. i just wanted to confirm you weren't talking a function call for every runtime stack manipulation.
2014-11-14T05:53:47Z beach: Right.
2014-11-14T05:54:14Z Bike: been writing a lot of µc code lately. makes you appreciate stacks
2014-11-14T05:54:35Z drmeister: With an a-list environment you might represent it like ((z . (:value)) (y . (:value)) (x. (:value)))
2014-11-14T05:54:37Z beach: Bike: Daytime job?
2014-11-14T05:54:49Z Bike: school
2014-11-14T05:54:55Z beach: Ah, OK.
2014-11-14T05:55:10Z drmeister: I would represent it like:   ((value-enviironment . ( x y z)) ...)
2014-11-14T05:55:27Z Bike: it's nice being like, oh, this function doesn't call anything and doesn't use many registers, i'll just have it not touch the stack at all
2014-11-14T05:55:30Z beach: drmeister: I understand.
2014-11-14T05:55:46Z pjb: -
2014-11-14T05:56:33Z Bike: oh, i think i see drmeister's point now.
2014-11-14T05:56:36Z drmeister: My approach may cause problems if a variable get's elided out - say if the compiler decides it can be treated like a constant.
2014-11-14T05:56:46Z Bike: maybe it would be good to have a step going through collapsing environments for the runtime.
2014-11-14T05:57:34Z beach: Bike: In Cleavir I don't maintain those environments once HIR code is generated.
2014-11-14T05:58:15Z beach: Runtime stack frames are deduced from the resulting intermediate code.
2014-11-14T05:58:23Z Bike: yeah the issue looks like treating these compile-time-use environments as runtime-use environments might be a not great plan
2014-11-14T05:58:46Z beach: It might be a strategy for a very simple system.
2014-11-14T05:59:05Z drmeister: beach: Yes, that's what I understood - once I get back HIR I have to rejigger the activation frames somehow.
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2014-11-14T06:00:11Z beach: drmeister: I know how to do that.  Except that the current code does not work for non-local control transfer.  That's what the modifications in the next few days are for.
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2014-11-14T06:00:31Z drmeister: I'm not sure how it's all going to work out but I'm confident that the path will get us there.
2014-11-14T06:00:37Z drmeister: Story of my life.
2014-11-14T06:00:42Z beach: Heh!
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2014-11-14T06:01:53Z beach: Bike: remind me where you are located?
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2014-11-14T06:02:06Z Bike: northwest united states
2014-11-14T06:02:18Z beach: Nice.
2014-11-14T06:02:25Z Bike: in the cold, cold desert
2014-11-14T06:02:33Z drmeister: beach: I've got non-local control transfer figured out for my current approach.
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2014-11-14T06:03:02Z beach: drmeister: Yes, of course!  Otherwise your system would have serious limitations.
2014-11-14T06:03:05Z drmeister: I use C++ exception handling and stack unwinding for everything to maintain interop with C++
2014-11-14T06:03:15Z Bike: maybe i'll fix up that basic closure compiler i've half-finished over thanksgiving...
2014-11-14T06:03:56Z beach: Bike: Good plan!  I am currently working on translating HIR to Common Lisp, but this time using a target runtime environment.
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2014-11-14T06:04:34Z beach: It will be like a SICL system embedded in a host Common Lisp system, and it will generate "native" code, i.e. compiled host code.
2014-11-14T06:04:37Z Bike: it's just such a pain to deal with lets where half the variables are specials or whatever...
2014-11-14T06:04:51Z Bike: oh, that sounds nice. mostly i just want to play with fast compiles i suppose
2014-11-14T06:05:51Z drmeister: I better get off to bed.  Good night all - and beach - thanks again.  Bike - thanks as well for that help earlier.
2014-11-14T06:05:59Z beach: drmeister: Good night.
2014-11-14T06:05:59Z Bike: no prob
2014-11-14T06:07:11Z beach: The thing I am working on is a bit strange, because it uses the host stack, but then I have to make sure that the target runtime environment evolves in parallel with the host stack.
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2014-11-14T06:07:34Z beach: I do this by using a single host special variable holding the target runtime environment.
2014-11-14T06:08:12Z Bike: apropos of nothing, how's your clos implementation? (thinking of this because i know some use the compiler)
2014-11-14T06:08:30Z beach: Yes, mine too.
2014-11-14T06:08:56Z Bike: occasionally i go back and try to understand sbcl's common loops. i don't usually get far.
2014-11-14T06:09:06Z beach: Once it runs natively, it should be very fast.
2014-11-14T06:09:20Z Bike: your clos uses the compiler at runtime?
2014-11-14T06:09:24Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-14T06:09:32Z Bike: hm hm, nifty.
2014-11-14T06:10:00Z Bike: oh, right, you had that whole thing compiling dispatch functions as jump tables, what was i thinking
2014-11-14T06:10:06Z beach: The dispatch code is basically an automaton testing a variable against constants.  I compile that at runtime.
2014-11-14T06:10:30Z beach: Not jump tables.
2014-11-14T06:10:37Z beach: Just inline IFs.
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2014-11-14T06:11:02Z Bike: Does the compiler know how to make a jump table out of a long cond?
2014-11-14T06:11:12Z beach: I don't want a jump table.
2014-11-14T06:11:15Z beach: So, no.
2014-11-14T06:11:20Z Bike: Why not?
2014-11-14T06:11:51Z beach: "table" means memory loads.
2014-11-14T06:12:27Z beach: It is faster these days to do a binary search with inline code.
2014-11-14T06:12:37Z Bike: shows what i know.
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2014-11-14T06:15:06Z Bike: "unfortunately" the class microcontrollers don't have much in the way of cache, so that world is still mysterious to me.
2014-11-14T06:15:40Z beach: Right, that's a different world.
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2014-11-14T06:16:57Z beach: I believe my CLOS implementation is easy to understand, in case you want to have a look.
2014-11-14T06:17:20Z Bike: maybe i will. hopefully it doesn't involve three new kinds of extended function names.
2014-11-14T06:17:35Z beach: What are those?
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2014-11-14T06:18:03Z Bike: let me see if i can get an example...
2014-11-14T06:18:04Z beach: SICL CLOS is not designed to be bootstrapped on a pre-CLOS Common Lisp system, so it doesn't have all the code for doing that.
2014-11-14T06:18:48Z Bike: no, no, i'm referring to sbcl clos's function names.
2014-11-14T06:19:13Z Bike: you get functions named things like (sb-pcl::ctor foo |COMPILATION-SPEED=3|) or something.
2014-11-14T06:19:18Z beach: Yes, my latest remark was unrelated.  It was about being simpler.
2014-11-14T06:19:22Z Bike: oh.
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2014-11-14T06:19:47Z beach: That list is a function name?
2014-11-14T06:20:15Z Bike: yeah. let me get an actual example.
2014-11-14T06:20:18Z beach: Hmm.
2014-11-14T06:21:26Z Bike: (SB-PCL::CTOR STANDARD-METHOD NIL :QUALIFIERS #:LIST-INITARG-0 :SPECIALIZERS SB-PCL::|.P1.| :LAMBDA-LIST #:LIST-INITARG-1 :FUNCTION SB-PCL::|.P3.| :DEFINITION-SOURCE SB-PCL::|.P4.|)
2014-11-14T06:21:46Z beach: Wow.
2014-11-14T06:22:01Z Bike: well, fdefinition works on it, so i guess i got it right
2014-11-14T06:22:49Z Bike: ctors are structures that are funcallable but i don't think they're funcallable-instances. so, i mean, it's pretty labyrinthine in there.
2014-11-14T06:22:56Z beach: Such names would definitely be possible, once (SETF <symbol>) are possible.
2014-11-14T06:23:46Z beach: Yeah, looks strange.
2014-11-14T06:23:54Z beach: Maybe I'll look into it some day.
2014-11-14T06:24:22Z Bike: I found an older portable version in the CMU archives, once. Lots of SI::JUMP and such
2014-11-14T06:25:45Z beach: Since I don't understand it, I won't try to have an opinion about how it is made.
2014-11-14T06:26:22Z beach: If you ever look at SICL CLOS, let me know if it looks easier to understand.
2014-11-14T06:26:22Z Bike: I think it's in the old papers, something about how to be efficient the system needs machine jumps or something.
2014-11-14T06:26:33Z Bike: sure. i think that's kind of a given though :)
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2014-11-14T06:28:10Z beach: Right now, the bootstrapping code for SICL CLOS is complicated, but that's because I didn't understand at the time how to use first-class global environments.  So I play tricks with the package system, just like SBCL does.
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2014-11-14T06:28:57Z beach: Now that I have a protocol for first-class global environments, I should be able to maintain simultaneous environments representing different stages in the bootstrapping process.  But I haven't worked that out yet.
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2014-11-14T06:32:13Z beach: So to get back to my current work of creating a SICL-like system embedded in a host, that's part of the effort to simplify the bootstrapping process.
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2014-11-14T06:54:45Z beach: Time to get to work!
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2014-11-14T14:07:23Z eudoxia: after 3 years of continuous development, fukamachi's clack is at version 1.0!
2014-11-14T14:07:34Z eudoxia: hooray for lisp on the web!
2014-11-14T14:08:00Z Xach: hooray!
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2014-11-14T14:12:17Z luis: eudoxia: clack is the low-level layer right?
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2014-11-14T14:12:34Z eudoxia: luis: it's a server abstraction layer basically
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2014-11-14T14:15:38Z luis: eudoxia: he had a server as well right? Did he have a higher-level layer too?
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2014-11-14T14:16:32Z eudoxia: luis: yes, he wrote woo as a backend for clack, and also a couple of web frameworks on top of clack
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2014-11-14T14:19:12Z luis: So, we have caveman on top of ningle, on top of clack, on top of whatever webserver we choose, right?
2014-11-14T14:19:35Z eudoxia: yes
2014-11-14T14:23:17Z wasamasa: hmm, last time I've checked there was just a file to support wookie, not woo
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2014-11-14T14:23:47Z eudoxia: hm woo is still pretty experimental
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2014-11-14T14:24:35Z eudoxia: the clack handler for woo is included in woo's repo, it might be merged into clack when it's more stable
2014-11-14T14:24:45Z wasamasa: ah, that makes sense
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2014-11-14T14:40:20Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-11-14T14:47:06Z rjmacready_: nyef: hey
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2014-11-14T15:00:42Z jusss: is there a website can run lisp code ?
2014-11-14T15:00:47Z jusss: like codepad.org
2014-11-14T15:01:01Z jusss: but I cann't find cl in it
2014-11-14T15:01:58Z Xach: I think there might be one, but I can't remember the address.
2014-11-14T15:02:02Z Xach: jusss: what would you do if you had a site like that?
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2014-11-14T15:06:34Z jusss: Xach: run it on a browser
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2014-11-14T15:06:42Z jusss: Xach: android
2014-11-14T15:07:43Z Xach: I don't remember, sorry.
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2014-11-14T15:08:29Z dlowe: jusss: try parenscript.
2014-11-14T15:10:11Z jasom: oh, jusss is gone; I have one but it takes 2 hours to load on desktop chrome on a xeon, so I don't think that would work well on android
2014-11-14T15:11:06Z Xach: I interpreted as a repl wired up to a server-side CL.
2014-11-14T15:11:11Z Xach: web repl, that is.
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2014-11-14T15:12:13Z dlowe: yeah, but a repl implement in JS seems a lot less problematic
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2014-11-14T15:13:26Z Xach: problematic schmoblematic
2014-11-14T15:13:46Z dlowe: you know, like not giving the whole world access to your server.
2014-11-14T15:13:57Z stassats: you can run sbcl on android
2014-11-14T15:14:16Z stassats: then run hunchentoot and evaluate all the things
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2014-11-14T15:22:21Z pjb: jusss is gone; I have one too :-)
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2014-11-14T16:48:01Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-11-14T16:48:56Z Xach: hello beach
2014-11-14T16:49:10Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-11-14T16:49:14Z oleo: evening all
2014-11-14T16:49:55Z beach: Compiling this: (lambda (...) (block B (ff (lambda (...) (return-from B (gg ...)))))) is very messy.
2014-11-14T16:49:56Z ejbs: Evening
2014-11-14T16:50:59Z nyef: beach: Yes. Yes, it is.
2014-11-14T16:51:06Z beach: All the values produced by BLOCK are needed, no matter how many.  Those values should be the ones returned by the call to GG, and the number of values returned by GG is also unknown.
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2014-11-14T16:51:59Z beach: ... so GG must be invoked and the values produced must be saved somewhere.  Then the stack must be unwound.  Finally, those saved values must be returned from BLOCK.
2014-11-14T16:54:09Z beach: I considered doing this: Unwind the stack first.  Then call GG as a tail call from inside B.
2014-11-14T16:54:46Z nyef: Special bindings, the possibility of a should-still-be-live exit getting unwound prematurely.
2014-11-14T16:54:55Z nyef: Basically doesn't work.
2014-11-14T16:55:00Z beach: Yeah, not a great idea :(
2014-11-14T16:55:38Z nyef: SBCL has a convention for blocks of unknown-values on the stack. Some unknown set of values, with a variable for the start address and a variable for the length.
2014-11-14T16:56:37Z beach: I see, yes.
2014-11-14T16:57:09Z nyef: Nesting of these values has to be tracked in conjunction with DX allocation, as they amount to a headerless DX-allocated array.
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2014-11-14T16:58:19Z beach: Very messy!
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2014-11-14T16:59:07Z beach: Now if the number of values that GG produces is known, then it gets easier.
2014-11-14T16:59:50Z moore33: Hello beach!
2014-11-14T16:59:57Z beach: Hi moore33.
2014-11-14T17:00:09Z beach: Of if the number of values required from the execution of B is known.
2014-11-14T17:00:58Z nyef: Deal with the general case, then optimize the nicer ones.
2014-11-14T17:01:07Z beach: Yeah.
2014-11-14T17:01:36Z nyef: Also note that you're looking at passing arguments to a continuation here, which may help.
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2014-11-14T17:02:04Z beach: It may.
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2014-11-14T17:04:53Z nyef: You basically have the same issue with (APPLY #'VALUES ...) as the return form for a function.
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2014-11-14T17:05:36Z beach: I suppose so, yes.
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2014-11-14T17:07:26Z nyef: I suppose now's not the right time to ask what you have planned for debugger support, is it?
2014-11-14T17:07:55Z beach: I have been giving it some thought, so ask away.
2014-11-14T17:09:00Z beach: Or was "What have you planneed for debugger support?" your question?
2014-11-14T17:09:16Z nyef: Pretty much.
2014-11-14T17:09:42Z beach: I think each compilation unit has a "code object" that describes the code in various ways.
2014-11-14T17:10:01Z beach: The source location for instance.  And a mapping of values of the program counter to register contents.
2014-11-14T17:10:27Z beach: Also needed for the GC.
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2014-11-14T17:12:27Z beach: nyef: Anything more specific?  I haven't worked out the details yet.
2014-11-14T17:13:50Z nyef: One question which bugs me is if I don't use advanced debugger features like stepping and whatnot because they tend not to provide much useful information (not to mention tend to be buggy as heck), or if they don't provide much useful information because I don't know how to use them well.
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2014-11-14T17:14:31Z beach: I see what you mean.
2014-11-14T17:14:54Z beach: When I programmed in C, I used the corresponding GDB functions a lot.
2014-11-14T17:15:08Z nyef: And I don't know which, I suspect that it might depend on the language involved, and SBCL's debugger is a bleeding nightmare, internally and externally.
2014-11-14T17:15:08Z beach: But I don't find the standard stepper very useful.
2014-11-14T17:15:32Z beach: I can believe that.
2014-11-14T17:15:45Z beach: What I would like to have is a thread debugging another thread.
2014-11-14T17:16:08Z nyef: I find steppers to be very useful for machine code, and ISTR that I used to use the one in VB6 quite a bit...
2014-11-14T17:16:12Z eudoxia: yes, sbcl could use an improvement in the signal-to-noise ratio
2014-11-14T17:16:57Z beach: nyef: What I mean is that stepping is very useful, but having to start the evaluation by wrapping the form in (step ...) is not practical.
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2014-11-14T17:17:32Z beach: I would like to set a breakpoint before or after some form, and then step once that breakpoint is reached.
2014-11-14T17:17:58Z nyef: Right, but why should you have to do that? Stepping should use breakpoints, breakpoints should actually work properly without being insanely dangerous and indifferently supported, things like that.
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2014-11-14T17:18:12Z stassats: right
2014-11-14T17:18:33Z beach: nyef: Sure, I agree.
2014-11-14T17:18:36Z nyef: And at the same time, the interface is invariably painful to use anyway.
2014-11-14T17:19:22Z beach: I am thinking a debugger might require some GUI or Emacs-like interface.  Just a command line is not practical.
2014-11-14T17:19:43Z nyef: Mmm. And emacs means slime means pain.
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2014-11-14T17:20:08Z beach: Note the "-like"! :)
2014-11-14T17:20:14Z nyef: Fair enough.
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2014-11-14T17:22:19Z theseb: iirc the reason gensym isn't 100% adequate, according to schemers, is because it doesn't give protection against insane macros that redefine reserved keywords like car, cdr, list and quote yes?
2014-11-14T17:22:40Z oGMo: no, because you can't macrolet etc those anyway
2014-11-14T17:22:45Z theseb: but couldn't you "protect" yourself from such crazy macros by simply not allowing redefinitions of keywords in your lisp?
2014-11-14T17:22:52Z oGMo: or you can't in Compliant Code(tm)
2014-11-14T17:23:12Z theseb:  (i'm trying to understand why full hygeine is necessary )
2014-11-14T17:23:24Z eudoxia: i don't think it is
2014-11-14T17:23:25Z oGMo: theseb: which is exactly how CL does it, e.g. SBCL will error if you try
2014-11-14T17:23:39Z nyef: theseb: It's not, but it's a lot more useful when you have a lisp-1 rather than a lisp-2.
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2014-11-14T17:24:18Z theseb: eudoxia: don't think what is?
2014-11-14T17:24:25Z eudoxia: hygienic macros
2014-11-14T17:24:34Z oGMo: and almost always, you are in your own package using your own symbols, so you almost certainly will not run into the issue practically, though you can obviously break it if you try ahrd
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2014-11-14T17:25:15Z theseb: oGMo: disallowing redefs of keywords seems like a much cleaner/easier way to fix this problem than using hygiene
2014-11-14T17:25:22Z theseb: oGMo: i'm glad CL does that
2014-11-14T17:25:28Z oGMo: theseb: you keep using that word...
2014-11-14T17:25:31Z oGMo: ("keywords")
2014-11-14T17:25:42Z theseb: oGMo: it is a Python-ism.....and C-ism too i think
2014-11-14T17:25:58Z theseb: oGMo: "keywords" = strings predefined by language for some stuff i think
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2014-11-14T17:26:14Z oGMo: in CL, keywords are symbols in the package KEYWORD, and you can bind them if you want (sometimes useful)
2014-11-14T17:26:15Z beach: Standard operators.
2014-11-14T17:26:35Z theseb: yes...standard operators....better
2014-11-14T17:27:00Z oGMo: theseb: but, yes, in general, just don't mess with symbols from other packages, except by well-defined interfaces (e.g., defmethod)
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2014-11-14T17:27:30Z theseb: thanks
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2014-11-14T17:30:14Z beach: nyef: One line of thinking I had was this:  When code is compiled with debug 3, insert an inexpensive test before/after the evaluation of each form.  The test returns true if there is a breakpoint in this function in this thread.  In most threads, the test returns false, so little overhead.  In the thread being debugged, it returns true, and then the thread object is checked (more expensive) to see whether this particular value of PC
2014-11-14T17:30:14Z beach: has a breakpoint.
2014-11-14T17:30:15Z oGMo: ..and yes the lisp-2-ness is a huge difference too, because you don't have to worry about LET etc
2014-11-14T17:30:59Z nyef: beach: symbol-value test, similar to SBCL's *STEPPING* ?
2014-11-14T17:31:22Z beach: No, more like "is bit 0 set in register R?"
2014-11-14T17:32:15Z beach: Maybe a bit in the status register.
2014-11-14T17:33:47Z beach: When the test yields false, it should be a single instruction or so.
2014-11-14T17:33:52Z pjb: beach: this is basically how my stepper works.
2014-11-14T17:34:24Z beach: pjb: "this"?  Do you use machine-level instructions?
2014-11-14T17:34:25Z pjb: Well, conceptually, it doesn't go down to assembler, since it's a conforming stepper :-)
2014-11-14T17:34:33Z beach: That's what I thought.
2014-11-14T17:36:04Z beach: But you must still generate different code from the existing compiled code, right?
2014-11-14T17:36:27Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-14T17:36:35Z beach: What I am thinking here is that if I compile with DEBUG 3, functions compiled this way would always have those tests in them.
2014-11-14T17:36:37Z pjb: the inserting around each expression of the test.
2014-11-14T17:36:45Z beach: I see, yes.
2014-11-14T17:37:22Z pjb: It's sure that it could be nicer done at the implementation leve.
2014-11-14T17:37:24Z pjb: l
2014-11-14T17:37:41Z beach: So I am thinking, during normal execution, there would be a one-instruction overhead for each reasonably large form to evaluate.
2014-11-14T17:37:59Z pjb: form and subforms…
2014-11-14T17:38:06Z beach: Yes, of course.
2014-11-14T17:38:38Z beach: This overhead would be unnoticeable, especially since DEBUG 3 would probably also prevent some optmizations.
2014-11-14T17:39:14Z pjb: Some processors have TRAP instructions designed for that.
2014-11-14T17:39:21Z pjb: conditional traps.
2014-11-14T17:39:24Z beach: True.
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2014-11-14T17:40:16Z beach: I haven't looked into the details of what modern processors do exactly, but I saw there was a large chapter in the ARM specification about stuff like that.
2014-11-14T17:40:24Z jasom: beach: what about just insert a NOP at each function and replace it with a BREAK
2014-11-14T17:40:30Z pjb: And other have a tracing execution mode, it could be activated/deactivated upon entry/exit of safety 3 functions.
2014-11-14T17:40:45Z beach: jasom: Then the break would happen in all threads.
2014-11-14T17:40:48Z jasom: oh
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2014-11-14T17:41:25Z beach: jasom: But I could replace the NOP by the test.
2014-11-14T17:41:32Z pjb: also, modifying code on modern processors is more difficult: you have to invalidate I-caches, perhaps manipulate page access rights, etc.
2014-11-14T17:41:48Z beach: Yeah, I am nervous about modifying the code.
2014-11-14T17:41:50Z jasom: pjb: most lisp implementations already have the ability to do that, right?
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2014-11-14T17:42:07Z pjb: Perhaps not at so fine a level.
2014-11-14T17:42:27Z pjb: But yes.
2014-11-14T17:42:32Z jasom: how does e.g. gdb handle per-thread breakpoints?
2014-11-14T17:42:46Z jasom: does it just use a traditional SW breakpoint and then resume if the TID doesn't match?
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2014-11-14T17:42:53Z pjb: I guess so yes.
2014-11-14T17:43:26Z beach: That sounds more expensive than what I suggested.  No?
2014-11-14T17:43:44Z beach: Maybe not.
2014-11-14T17:43:54Z beach: But it does involve modifying the code.
2014-11-14T17:43:58Z jasom: beach: more expensive for threads that don't have the breakpoint, but less otherwise; using a register is going to hurt on all targets that aren't sparc or Power
2014-11-14T17:44:19Z beach: jasom: Yes, I agree.
2014-11-14T17:44:30Z jasom: curse you x86 and arm!
2014-11-14T17:45:03Z jasom just had an evil idea for x86, but it invovles CPU ucode so it's probably a non-starter
2014-11-14T17:45:06Z beach: In the worst case, it could be a stack location.
2014-11-14T17:46:15Z jasom: I was thinking how the original BDM was implemented in 68k microcode; setting a hardware breakpoint actually modified the instruction decode logic on those parts
2014-11-14T17:47:15Z beach: nyef: You haven't said anything about all these ideas.  Any thoughts?
2014-11-14T17:48:59Z nyef: Sorry, got sideswiped by work stuff.
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2014-11-14T17:49:33Z beach: jasom: Here is another idea to avoid reserving a register: Make the bit part of the static environment of the function and let the register allocator figure out if and when it should be in a register, on the stack, etc.
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2014-11-14T17:52:19Z beach: Oh, got to go.  Dinner!  I might be back later.
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2014-11-14T18:44:00Z jasom: I *really* need to submit a pull-request to bordeaux-threads for the recursive lock nonsense
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2014-11-14T18:44:22Z jasom just ran into a failure in CCL that worked on sbcl, which means someone thought they were using a recursive lock on sbcl, but really was using a nop
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2014-11-14T18:49:25Z jasom: oh, nope, in this case it's because bt:make-lock makes a recursive lock on ccl.  That's not right
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2014-11-14T18:52:44Z jasom: okay is it possible to search CCL's trac for an arbitrary string in the description?
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2014-11-14T18:55:56Z jasom: ah: " It is an error to call this unless the lock has previously been acquired (and not released) by the same thread."
2014-11-14T18:56:25Z jasom: so even non-recursive locks can't be released by another thread
2014-11-14T18:58:05Z jasom: bit of a pain; that means condition-variables since bt has no semaphores
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2014-11-14T19:22:47Z jasom: anyway, woo runs at 1/3 the speed on ccl vs sbcl.  Not bad considering it's purely optimized for sbcl
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2014-11-14T20:21:39Z stacksmith: Shinmera?
2014-11-14T20:21:49Z Shinmera: Hmm?
2014-11-14T20:22:14Z stacksmith: Oh, good, you are here.  I saw your post - I was away for a couple of weeks and couldn't follow up.
2014-11-14T20:22:28Z stacksmith: I am very curious about Parasol
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2014-11-14T20:22:40Z Shinmera: You mean my blog entry?
2014-11-14T20:22:44Z stacksmith: yeah
2014-11-14T20:22:51Z Shinmera: Ah, alright. What are you curious about then?
2014-11-14T20:23:02Z stacksmith: Where are you at with it?  Can you draw/paint with it?
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2014-11-14T20:23:22Z Shinmera: I'm currently still writing mostly back-end infrastructure stuff, so you can't do anything with it really.
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2014-11-14T20:23:31Z drmeister: Regarding debugging in Common Lisp  -  In Clasp I'm using DWARF so you should be able to single step with GDB or LLDB.
2014-11-14T20:23:36Z Shinmera: Won't be long until I've wired it all up to actually paint anything though.
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2014-11-14T20:24:31Z drmeister: It also allows me to smoothly debug C++ and Common Lisp.  It works somewhat in GDB at the moment but not quite as well in LLDB.
2014-11-14T20:24:34Z stacksmith: Cool.  My wife is a painter, and I've been looking around for something that makes sense for a while...
2014-11-14T20:25:01Z Shinmera: I'm currently using MyPaint, but there's enough things I dislike about it to want to write my own.
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2014-11-14T20:25:38Z Shinmera: stacksmith: If you want to try something that is runnable, you could check out the old-master branch, around commit 0f4c2f748e6586c29e6a208cc22f5e21c8126c73
2014-11-14T20:26:07Z stacksmith: I am really excited about having a basic engine that's extensible, and having a CL backbone of course is the way to go...
2014-11-14T20:26:22Z Shinmera: The old version got as far as this https://camo.githubusercontent.com/22fe71fcfbf5e6c0bb6892b008d5e4a3723bddb3/687474703a2f2f33332e6d656469612e74756d626c722e636f6d2f34333139623533303835313938393566663438663831393835663033363461332f74756d626c725f6e377961667a34373957317167693474736f315f313238302e706e67
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2014-11-14T20:27:21Z Shinmera: But yeah, it's gonna be a while before my re-write is usable. I'm trying to juggle a lot of things simultaneously, so I can't spend too much time on it, unfortunately.
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2014-11-14T20:28:07Z nyef: Shinmera: Any chance it'll be usable by, say, mid-February?
2014-11-14T20:28:11Z stacksmith: I get it, not expecting miracles...
2014-11-14T20:28:51Z stacksmith: The engine is the key, the UI/brush math is secondary...
2014-11-14T20:28:52Z Shinmera: nyef: Well, depends on your requirements for 'usable', but you should be able to do basic tablet input by then, I'm fairly confident. Now I'm curious though, why mid-February exactly?
2014-11-14T20:29:03Z nyef: Modbook Pro X.
2014-11-14T20:29:22Z Shinmera: Never heard of that, but alright.
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2014-11-14T20:29:54Z Shinmera: If you can run CCL and Qt on it, you should be fine.
2014-11-14T20:30:00Z nyef: It's a 15-inch retina macbook that's been converted to a tablet.
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2014-11-14T20:30:23Z Shinmera: Yeah, I'm looking at the site. Seems interesting.
2014-11-14T20:30:38Z stacksmith: Shinmera, please make sure the UI does not contaminate the core paint engine...  I've seen good things go bad fast.
2014-11-14T20:30:41Z Shinmera: I won't be able to test things on Mac Os myself, as I don't own a machine for it.
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2014-11-14T20:31:12Z nyef: Ah, okay. So, something to look forward to trying once it arrives. (-:
2014-11-14T20:31:26Z Shinmera: stacksmith: I wouldn't worry there, I got good plans for that.
2014-11-14T20:31:28Z nyef: Otherwise I might have to stick to using the GIMP.
2014-11-14T20:31:58Z Shinmera: stacksmith: My brush engine allows you to define brushes in terms of a class hierarchy; reusing and combining properties/capabilities of brushes.
2014-11-14T20:32:17Z Shinmera: stacksmith: and of course since this is CL you can define whatever wild crazy thing you want by writing your own scripts.
2014-11-14T20:33:27Z stacksmith: Shinmera, I've been watching how oil painters work, and have some ideas about UI or lack thereof.  Basically, instead of fancy widgets, you need a place to mix paints, and have brushes that push and drag paint around as they apply it...
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2014-11-14T20:34:28Z Shinmera: stacksmith: Well, I don't know if I'm gonna do the math and algorithms to make that possible, but I don't see why someone couldn't write that in as a brush class.
2014-11-14T20:34:34Z nyef: Ooh. I know an oil painter with a mac and access to a wacom tablet...
2014-11-14T20:35:17Z stacksmith: Shinmera, exactly.  That's why having a clean core stroke engine is really important.
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2014-11-14T21:22:31Z drdo: So i need to do a presentation on software verification/testing/analysis. Is there something interesting for a lisp?
2014-11-14T21:25:31Z nyef: drdo: Maybe something to do with ACL2?
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2014-11-14T21:27:14Z drdo: Hmm, that seems interesting
2014-11-14T21:30:33Z drdo: nyef: Are you familiar with it? Is it something i could study and understand the high-level workings of in a short amount of time?
2014-11-14T21:31:36Z drdo: I've been keeping away from theorem provers because while they are very interesting, just studying the logics involved would take serious effort and time
2014-11-14T21:31:58Z nyef: I'm not particularly familiar with it, no. You might try reading through an introductory part of the documentation for an initial assessment, though. At least that much shouldn't take too long.
2014-11-14T21:33:47Z drdo: Theorem provers would actually be perfect for me. I'm studying logic and am going to do my thesis somewhere there. But i can't spare the effort and time to go ahead and study something like Coq
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2014-11-14T21:53:12Z drdo: nyef: btw, what about something for lisp, rather than just being written in lisp?
2014-11-14T21:54:01Z jasom: drdo: hard to do due to the dynamic nature of lisp
2014-11-14T21:54:04Z nyef: Rather than just being written in lisp, and using a subset of lisp as the proof language?
2014-11-14T21:54:38Z drdo: nyef: I mean, to verify/test/analyse something about lisp programs
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2014-11-14T21:55:32Z nyef: All ACL2 proofs are, in some sense, about lisp programs, because they are all lisp programs.
2014-11-14T21:55:57Z nyef: An actual use applied to lisp? Well, IIRC some amount of ACL2 is proven in itself...
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2014-11-14T21:56:55Z drdo: nyef: I meant more like something for use while developing using lisp
2014-11-14T21:57:06Z drdo: A good example of the kind of thing i mean is quickcheck for Haskell
2014-11-14T21:57:35Z nyef: Hrm. There's a random-tester for lisp compilers somewhere.
2014-11-14T21:58:06Z jasom: drdo: Python does some source-code analysis on lisp code.  Other than type-propogation none of it is formal IIRC though
2014-11-14T21:58:34Z nyef: jasom: What constitutes "formal" in this context?
2014-11-14T21:59:27Z jasom: nyef: "This syntactically correct lisp code definitely has <incorrect/correct> semantics"
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2014-11-14T21:59:52Z jasom: versus "This syntactically correct code looks suspicious"
2014-11-14T21:59:56Z drdo: Since lisp is harder than most to actually test, i thought there might be some interesting ideas
2014-11-14T22:00:13Z nyef: Ah, okay.
2014-11-14T22:00:22Z oleo: sheele, rt.....
2014-11-14T22:00:27Z oleo: many test frameworks....
2014-11-14T22:00:28Z jasom: drdo: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2F3e8.org%2Fpub%2Fscheme%2Fdoc%2Flisp-pointers%2Fv5i1%2Fp235-maclachlan.pdf&ei=cXtmVNKZBsjWoAS9-IGIBQ&usg=AFQjCNE2n8FyKZ-170jhZCoSUKRI37h_NA&sig2=O-zdvk0_1C4b2Zj-DctXqg&bvm=bv.79400599,d.cGU
2014-11-14T22:00:34Z nyef: drdo: What do you mean "harder than most to actually test"?
2014-11-14T22:00:35Z oleo: sheeple* sorry
2014-11-14T22:00:41Z jasom: wow, that's a really ugly link
2014-11-14T22:01:03Z drdo: nyef: I don't know to be honest
2014-11-14T22:01:32Z jasom: drdo: see sec. 2.2 of that pdf for an example
2014-11-14T22:02:17Z drdo: huh something that would be mad cool would be some sort of hygiene static analyser
2014-11-14T22:02:46Z drdo: that could warn about potential hygiene violations in macroexpansion
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2014-11-14T22:03:03Z jasom: drdo: not really possible to distinguish between intentional and unintentional shadowing bindings
2014-11-14T22:05:54Z Bicyclidine: google search links are messy for some reason. http://3e8.org/pub/scheme/doc/lisp-pointers/v5i1/p235-maclachlan.pdf seems more direct
2014-11-14T22:06:29Z Bicyclidine: would it take that much static analysis to find hygeine violations? you'd just be looking for read-time symbolic constants showing up in variable positions of the expansion, i guess
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2014-11-14T22:14:35Z nyef: Bicyclidine: More or less. It's not that it's amazingly hard, it's that macro hygiene is often deliberately violated.
2014-11-14T22:14:48Z Bicyclidine: right
2014-11-14T22:15:58Z nyef: What I'd like to see is a verified compiler for CL, but that'd be a heck of a lot of work.
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2014-11-14T22:21:39Z Xach: or maybe a thoroughly eyeballed compiler
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2014-11-14T22:26:39Z nyef: To enough bugs, all eyeballs are shallow.
2014-11-14T22:28:20Z jasom: nyef: I like that quote
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2014-11-14T23:00:02Z ecraven: Do I understand correctly that keyword arguments are only parsed after all required and optional arguments have been filled?
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2014-11-14T23:01:02Z Xach: parsed?
2014-11-14T23:01:34Z Xach: ecraven: yes. it is usually awkward and trouble-prone to mix &optional and &key
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2014-11-14T23:03:37Z ecraven: Xach: I was just pondering this :)
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2014-11-14T23:03:57Z ecraven: is it possible to mix &rest and &key? to have a few rest pieces, then a keyword with value or two, then more rest, then another keyword?
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2014-11-14T23:04:08Z ecraven: or must all keyword arguments be contiguous and before any rest?
2014-11-14T23:04:14Z |3b|: they overlap
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2014-11-14T23:05:13Z ecraven: so (&key foo bar &rest baaz) would give '(1 2 3) for baaz if I called it with parameters (1 :foo 'foo 2 :bar 3)?
2014-11-14T23:05:14Z |3b|: &rest contains all of the &key, and must be valid &key argument list (even number of values, matches keywords etc)
2014-11-14T23:05:33Z |3b|: it would include the keywords also
2014-11-14T23:05:33Z ecraven: ah, the keyword arguments aren't removed from the &rest parameter?
2014-11-14T23:05:38Z ecraven: ok, thanks a lot!
2014-11-14T23:05:58Z ecraven: this clears things up considerably :) and indeed mixing &optional and &key is really an obviously bad idea
2014-11-14T23:06:31Z |3b|: that can be useful, for example when you want to pass the arguments directly to another function, but have keyword checking or want the keywords for argument hinting in editors
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2014-11-14T23:06:45Z |3b|: "that" as in mixing &rest and &key
2014-11-14T23:07:03Z |3b|: mixing &key with &optional is less useful
2014-11-14T23:07:39Z nyef: Don't forget about &allow-other-keys.
2014-11-14T23:08:18Z nyef: For some reason I've taken to using destructuring-bind with &key &allow-other-keys in the arglist to find things in plists.
2014-11-14T23:08:37Z |3b| does that sometimes also
2014-11-14T23:08:53Z nyef: But only when I want more than one thing, otherwise I can just use getf.
2014-11-14T23:08:57Z |3b|: right
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2014-11-14T23:19:30Z didi: How can I know if a slot is bound in an `initialize-instance' method? I have an `initialize-instance' method on a subclass of a superclass. The superclass has a slot with `:initarg'. When making a new instance of the subclass, I want to compute the value of the superclass' slot only if none has been passed to `make-instance'.
2014-11-14T23:19:48Z |3b|: clhs slot-boundp
2014-11-14T23:19:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_bo.htm
2014-11-14T23:20:14Z didi: So simple. Thank you, |3b|.
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2014-11-14T23:21:36Z Grue`: ecraven: &rest goes before &key
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2014-11-14T23:41:51Z jusss: why format is not a s-expr?
2014-11-14T23:42:04Z didi: Reasons.
2014-11-14T23:42:08Z Shinmera: beacuase
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2014-11-14T23:45:08Z nyef: Because the entire idea was just sort of strung together, and never properly parsed out?
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2014-11-14T23:46:40Z puchacz: hi, can somebody who has chtml and cxml-dom installed try to evaluate (dom:map-document (chtml:make-string-sink) (chtml:parse "&apos;" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))) please?
2014-11-14T23:46:53Z puchacz: I am getting "<html><head></head><body>&amp;apos;</body></html>" which I think is a bug
2014-11-14T23:47:13Z puchacz: when I inspect the result of parsing, it seems to be parsed wrongly
2014-11-14T23:47:37Z puchacz: &apos; is not recognised as entity
2014-11-14T23:47:41Z Shinmera: &apos; is not a valid HTML4 entity.
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2014-11-14T23:48:07Z puchacz: makes sense, thanks
2014-11-14T23:48:09Z Shinmera: You're looking for &quot;
2014-11-14T23:48:30Z puchacz: or modify the parser....
2014-11-14T23:48:33Z Shinmera: Or &#39;
2014-11-14T23:49:19Z Shinmera: Plump should recognize &apos;.
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2014-11-14T23:51:12Z puchacz: is plump able to swallow html5?
2014-11-14T23:51:26Z puchacz: all these data-xxx attributes etc
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2014-11-14T23:59:52Z Grue`: what's special about data-xxx attributes?