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2014-11-13T01:12:03Z freehck: people, I see a strange behaviour of loop
2014-11-13T01:12:36Z freehck: I have this (setf stop-flag t) and next operation is (loop unless stop-flag do ...)
2014-11-13T01:12:57Z nyef: Do you mean (loop until stop-flag do ...)?
2014-11-13T01:13:19Z freehck: hm...
2014-11-13T01:13:31Z freehck: i dont know the difference now
2014-11-13T01:13:35Z freehck: i'll read
2014-11-13T01:13:53Z nyef: Good idea. Once you've done that, the behavior should be less strange. (-:
2014-11-13T01:14:07Z pjb: unless is when not,  until is while not.
2014-11-13T01:14:44Z freehck: oh... until is a termination test...
2014-11-13T01:14:45Z nyef: unless and when are conditionals on the following clause. until and while are conditionals on loop exit.
2014-11-13T01:14:53Z freehck: and unless is only a conditional one... )
2014-11-13T01:15:08Z freehck: thank you!
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2014-11-13T02:10:00Z drmeister: I found a problem with my implementation of SHADOWING-IMPORT.
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2014-11-13T02:12:00Z drmeister: Hang on - I'm going somewhere with this...
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z freehck: what parameter contains the name of current working directory?
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z nyef: clhs *d-p-d*
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z specbot: *default-pathname-defaults*: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_defaul.htm
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z nyef: freehck: That, in as much as CL has a concept of "current working directory".
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z drmeister: freehck: *default-pathname-defaults*    -- but it's not quite the same as the current working directory.
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z drmeister: It's more like a bunch of default pathname components that get merged with pathnames that you use in CL before the physical pathname is resolved.   That's my understanding.
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z freehck: I don't understand it. When I create a file, where should it be created?
2014-11-13T02:16:02Z freehck: I thought that in cwd, as usual
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2014-11-13T02:16:12Z drmeister: Does this look like an appropriate implementation of SHADOWING-IMPORT?
2014-11-13T02:16:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/8ME7LW5d
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2014-11-13T02:17:19Z nyef: freehck: *d-p-d* is usually initialized to point to the cwd, but CL doesn't really have the concept of a cwd. Most implementations will do the obvious thing until you want to change the cwd / rebind *d-p-d*.
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2014-11-13T02:17:48Z freehck: okay, I got.
2014-11-13T02:18:15Z drmeister: I ask because my previous implementation was broken and so I think I fixed it here.  Then I do the usual 1) Read the CLHS 2) read my code 3) try and figure out if my code mimics the CLHS behavior 4) if not confident goto step 1 5) Ask on #lisp
2014-11-13T02:18:22Z freehck: so if I rebind *d-p-d*, the file will be created in the right place.
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2014-11-13T02:21:13Z drmeister: A symbol is "present" in a package if it's :internal or :external to the package - correct?  The CLHS glossary says "being accessible in that package directly, rather than being inherited from another package."  Which I think means the symbol is :internal or :external in the package.
2014-11-13T02:21:54Z freehck: nyef, drmeister: btw, why there're 2 words "default" in the name of this variable?
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2014-11-13T02:22:18Z drmeister: My packages maintain three hash tables  _ExternalSymbols, _InternalSymbols and _ShadowingSymbols.
2014-11-13T02:22:46Z nyef: freehck: The first one is because you can override the pathname defaults in a few places via an optional function parameter. The second is because it's a set of default values.
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2014-11-13T02:23:45Z freehck: a set? but clhs says that it's not a list.
2014-11-13T02:23:55Z freehck: what is set?
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2014-11-13T02:25:19Z nyef: Set in the sense of "grab bag", "pile", or "collection". Each part of the pathname which is stored in *d-p-d* is used as a default value for the unsupplied part of another pathname when it is used.
2014-11-13T02:25:23Z drmeister: I believe nyef means "set" in the general sense - it's a collection of default values, hostname, directory, filename, type
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2014-11-13T02:26:39Z freehck: well, I think I got it.
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2014-11-13T02:36:29Z drmeister: Alrighty then - I successfully loaded the asdf system:     (asdf:load-system :cleavir-generate-ast)
2014-11-13T02:36:29Z drmeister: beach: ping - when you wake up.
2014-11-13T02:38:16Z freehck: drmeister: is it night in you timezone too? )
2014-11-13T02:38:29Z drmeister: Oh - and congratulations to your space agency for landing a robot on Comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko - very exciting.
2014-11-13T02:39:00Z nyef: ... As was the xkcd coverage of the event.
2014-11-13T02:42:39Z freehck: nyef: wow, such a long coverage! )
2014-11-13T02:43:25Z nyef: Mmm. Something like 142 panels or so, AFAICT.
2014-11-13T02:43:51Z nyef: ( xkcd1446.org )
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2014-11-13T03:33:09Z drmeister: beach: I got something to run but it threw an error.
2014-11-13T03:33:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/K4H2GKZY
2014-11-13T03:34:43Z drmeister: I don't see any specializations of cleavir-environment::make-info on lexical-variable
2014-11-13T03:36:22Z drmeister: beach: I'll provide you with the script if you want it when you come online.  It's just what I posted yesterday and I copied your hostile environment variable-info and function-info functions.
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2014-11-13T03:48:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-13T03:49:49Z beach: drmeister: Looking into that error.
2014-11-13T03:49:52Z beach: Hold on...
2014-11-13T03:50:42Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-11-13T03:50:52Z drmeister: Howdy
2014-11-13T03:51:13Z drmeister: beach: I haven't done anything with lexical environments at this stage.
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2014-11-13T03:51:41Z drmeister: Here's the script I ran.
2014-11-13T03:52:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/otrKW8XV
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2014-11-13T03:58:42Z beach: OK, I don't see anything obvious.  Let me run your example.
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2014-11-13T04:03:11Z beach: Well, your example works in the test environment here.
2014-11-13T04:03:30Z beach: I am trying to read your backtrace.
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2014-11-13T04:07:41Z beach: drmeister: I don't know whether this makes any sense to you, but let me say it anyway.  MAKE-INFO seems to be called with an environment object rather than an INFO object.  MAKE-INFO is called on the return value of DEFINING-VARIABLE-INFO, and I don't see how it could return something other than an INFO object.
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2014-11-13T04:10:44Z drmeister: The defining-info value is nil when it is passed to make-info.
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2014-11-13T04:11:02Z beach: Oh, hold on...
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2014-11-13T04:11:56Z drmeister: So in default-info-methods.lisp line 320:  (let ((defining-info (defining-variable-info environment symbol))) (make-info environment defining-info)       the value returned by defining-variable-info is nil.
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2014-11-13T04:13:02Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I see.
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2014-11-13T04:15:16Z drmeister: ENVIRONMENT is a cleavir-environment:lexical-variable with three slots ( INSTANCE... X INSTANCE...)
2014-11-13T04:15:25Z drmeister: The value of SYMBOL is Y
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2014-11-13T04:18:13Z drmeister: I'm guessing in defining-variable-info the (name environment) --> X and symbol --> Y and so it's falling through to the else clause which recursively calls defining-variable-info which I guess is returning nil.
2014-11-13T04:18:53Z beach: Yeah.
2014-11-13T04:19:00Z beach: So there are two problems.
2014-11-13T04:19:28Z beach: 1. Cleavir should clearly signal an error rather than fail when defining-variable-info returns nil.
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2014-11-13T04:19:51Z beach: 2. It should not return NIL for this example.
2014-11-13T04:20:40Z beach: The only way defining-variable-info can return NIL (as far as I can see) is if the method on the global environment returns NIL.
2014-11-13T04:20:53Z drmeister: "No plan survives contact with the enemy"
2014-11-13T04:21:01Z beach: And in this case, the variable should have been found in the local environment.
2014-11-13T04:21:03Z nyef: "... so be the enemy"?
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2014-11-13T04:23:11Z drmeister: Is it something to do with the variable-info method I copied from you?  I didn't look at it too closely but it looked like it should work with Clasp.  Or is it the lexical environments that I haven't dealt with at all yet?
2014-11-13T04:24:53Z beach: Do you mean the variable-info method on your global environment?
2014-11-13T04:25:01Z beach: No, that should not be the case.
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2014-11-13T04:26:06Z beach: Perhaps you can tell me which method of defining-variable-info returns NIL here?
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2014-11-13T04:27:30Z beach: If it is the one on your global environment, then this means that the method on the Cleavir lexical environments fails to find one of your local variables.
2014-11-13T04:29:30Z drmeister: What would (next environment) return?
2014-11-13T04:29:35Z drmeister: Hang on I'll trace it
2014-11-13T04:29:40Z beach: Yeah.
2014-11-13T04:29:47Z beach: Trace defining-variable-info.
2014-11-13T04:30:21Z beach: (NEXT ENVIRONMENT) is just the next environment in the chain of environments.
2014-11-13T04:30:36Z beach: It should end with the global environment.
2014-11-13T04:33:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PV8G9wz8
2014-11-13T04:33:59Z drmeister: It goes past the global environment and ends with NIL
2014-11-13T04:34:12Z drmeister: No, sorry.
2014-11-13T04:34:21Z drmeister: It ends with the global environment but that returns NIL
2014-11-13T04:34:30Z beach: Sure.
2014-11-13T04:34:37Z beach: There is no Y in the global env.
2014-11-13T04:34:48Z beach: But why does it not find it in the local environment?
2014-11-13T04:34:57Z drmeister: Shouldn't it find Y in the lexical environment?
2014-11-13T04:35:00Z drmeister: Right
2014-11-13T04:35:03Z beach: Yes.
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2014-11-13T04:35:57Z beach: Wait.  I think I got it.
2014-11-13T04:36:00Z drmeister: It doesn't seem to search the lexical environment at all.
2014-11-13T04:36:14Z beach: Yes, it does.
2014-11-13T04:36:22Z beach: The first line of the backtrace.
2014-11-13T04:36:32Z beach: But I see the same problem here now.
2014-11-13T04:36:40Z beach: So now I can start figuring out the problem.
2014-11-13T04:37:37Z drmeister: defining-variable-info just tests (eq symbol (name environment))   How does the lexical-variable environment represent variables.
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2014-11-13T04:41:28Z drmeister: brb
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2014-11-13T04:44:35Z beach: A lexical variable is represented by an instance of LEXICAL-VARIABLE.
2014-11-13T04:45:19Z beach: The problem here is probably not in the environment code, but in the AST generation code.
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2014-11-13T04:46:33Z beach: It searches for X in an environment that contains only Y.
2014-11-13T04:46:37Z beach: This should not happen.
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2014-11-13T05:09:54Z beach: drmeister: I need to wake up a bit more before I debug this problem, but I have a pretty good idea what it is.  I'll have it done by the time you wake up in the morning.
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2014-11-13T05:37:50Z allen: does anyone know where I can find this package? chrome-extension://mhjfbmdgcfjbbpaeojofohoefgiehjai/index.html
2014-11-13T05:38:14Z allen: I'm sorry: http://repository.upenn.edu/cis_reports/537/
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2014-11-13T05:43:18Z drmeister: Great! Thank you.
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2014-11-13T06:51:53Z ggole: sympa.inria.fr redirects to https, but doesn't have a valid cert >_<
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2014-11-13T06:52:51Z ggole: (Wrong channel.)
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2014-11-13T07:17:01Z drmeister: beach: If you are still online - could you point me to your web page where you had code samples and HIR graphs?
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2014-11-13T07:19:59Z drmeister: It's ok - I found it in my browser history.
2014-11-13T07:21:03Z drmeister: I finished editing a thesis and I thought I'd reward myself by doing a little coding.  (I have a weird personal reward structure).
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2014-11-13T07:22:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/eULsiO2s
2014-11-13T07:23:09Z drmeister: I'll try that again:  I tried this example:
2014-11-13T07:23:14Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Zl72B5yB
2014-11-13T07:23:39Z drmeister: This time it worked until it was trying to generate the graph!
2014-11-13T07:24:05Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XzfqgEc9
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2014-11-13T07:24:51Z drmeister: beach: Sorry, I'm breaking your code.   :-(    It's really cool though and I'm tremendously excited that these examples have gotten as far as they have.
2014-11-13T07:25:38Z pjb: drmeister: the presence of symbols in packages is a primitive notion.  Have a look at Xach's package abstract implementation (or my implementation derived of it in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/common-lisp/lisp-reader ).
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2014-11-13T07:26:08Z pjb: drmeister: Xach's named zpack.lisp
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2014-11-13T07:27:08Z pjb: drmeister: cf. clhs import
2014-11-13T07:28:38Z drmeister: pjb: Thank you - I'll have to look at it tomorrow.  I need to drag my tired carcass to bed.  It's been an exhausting couple of weeks.
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2014-11-13T07:30:15Z drmeister: But now I'm curious think about what you just said.  Could you summarize what you do with symbols if you don't store them in packages?
2014-11-13T07:30:49Z pjb: Oh, they are stored in packages.
2014-11-13T07:31:53Z pjb: But a symbol can be accessible in a package thru the use-list, which is a list of packages of which we search the exported symbols, OR, it can be accessible in a package as an interned symbol, or an imported symbol (both are present symbols).
2014-11-13T07:32:44Z pjb: Notably, the exported symbols of used package can be shadowed, but there's no such notion for present symbols: they are either interned or imported, you can have different symbols with same names being both.
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2014-11-13T07:33:28Z drmeister: That's what I do:  my packages are implemented in C++ and have these instance variables:
2014-11-13T07:33:33Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wVWk5Fo8
2014-11-13T07:33:57Z pjb: You may compare with https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/1ee0848bf0ee59d55dac072600ca6404a5ef1090:common-lisp/lisp-reader/package-fun.lisp#L757
2014-11-13T07:34:58Z pjb: InternalSymbols = present-table.
2014-11-13T07:35:10Z pjb: In InternalSymbols you will have both interned and imported symbols.
2014-11-13T07:35:23Z pjb: Notice that means that a symbol can be in several InternalSymbols hashtables.
2014-11-13T07:35:51Z pjb: (symbol-package gives the home package of a symbol, if it has one).
2014-11-13T07:36:29Z drmeister: Ok, I see that.  I'm afraid that I shouldn't have asked in the state I'm in - higher brain functions ... shutting down ...   would very much like to continue the conversation but must sleep.
2014-11-13T07:36:40Z pjb: Good night!
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2014-11-13T07:40:57Z beach: drmeister: I'll look at your stuff later.  Now I must go.
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2014-11-13T08:12:02Z axion: hi guys
2014-11-13T08:13:10Z axion: with a nested dolist loop, is it better to create a top-level let binding with all the vars you need and setf or similar within the loops, or use multiple let forms at each step, or something else?
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2014-11-13T08:14:51Z Grue`: it's better to just use LOOP
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2014-11-13T08:15:44Z axion: Grue`: why is that? i'm actually rewriting a LOOP to be more concise
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2014-11-13T08:16:59Z Grue`: I'm not sure how several lets and setfs are more concise than LOOP constructs
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2014-11-13T08:20:18Z axion: ok i'll take that into consideration, though i am not very happy with my loop construct. i'll experiment some more, though everytime i write a LOOP i think it's ugly and could be read more easily with lispy constructs
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2014-11-13T08:20:55Z Grue`: well, it's a matter of preference. there's also ITERATE library which is a more lispy loop
2014-11-13T08:21:11Z axion: i've yet to try that. might be a good time. thanks
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2014-11-13T08:28:48Z loke: Grue`: I've always been confused by that... more "lispy"? Just because the clauses is surrounded by parns?
2014-11-13T08:29:31Z loke: If anything, LOOP completely embodies "lispiness". Implementing an ideal DSL within the foundations of the language itself.
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2014-11-13T08:30:48Z Grue`: it's not lispy enough because it's impossible to define your own loop constructs
2014-11-13T08:31:08Z Shinmera: Not portably anyway.
2014-11-13T08:31:56Z pjb: axion: in general, if you can avoid setf it's better (more functional oriented).
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2014-11-13T08:32:45Z loke: Grue`: OK, I can agree with that, which also assumed that NTH, +, COPY-SEQ and MAP are also not lispy?
2014-11-13T08:35:21Z Shinmera: In other lispy things, OpenGL but not using OpenGL http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/7F
2014-11-13T08:36:37Z loke: WHat does #_ do?
2014-11-13T08:36:49Z Shinmera: Invoke Qt C++ methods
2014-11-13T08:36:58Z Shinmera: or rather it expands to an optimized form that does that
2014-11-13T08:37:06Z Shinmera: A part of CommonQt
2014-11-13T08:37:16Z loke: Shinmera: Aren't those just plain C++ classes?
2014-11-13T08:37:41Z Shinmera: loke: I'm not sure what you mean by that
2014-11-13T08:37:58Z loke: I mean that QT doesn't have "special" classes, like GTK has
2014-11-13T08:38:23Z Shinmera: I'm sorry, I still don't follow.
2014-11-13T08:38:27Z loke: I.e. the QT methods are just bog standard C++ methods like any other
2014-11-13T08:38:35Z Shinmera: Well yes.
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2014-11-13T08:39:07Z Shinmera: smokeqt generates C wrappers for the methods which CommonQt accesses. More or less anyway.
2014-11-13T08:39:36Z loke: So I'd assume that whatever smokeqt is, it should be able to do the same for any C++ classes?
2014-11-13T08:39:40Z loke: Not just the qt ones
2014-11-13T08:40:08Z Shinmera: I'm not sure. Smoke is the general program/library to generate wrappers, smokeqt is just an application of that for Qt.
2014-11-13T08:40:13Z Shinmera: Though stassats says smoke sucks
2014-11-13T08:40:15Z Shinmera: so
2014-11-13T08:40:30Z loke: Well, QT being built on C++ is a huge problem, not just for Lisp
2014-11-13T08:40:51Z Shinmera: He hopes to use Clasp to parse the Qt source and generate wrappers directly, if I understood correctly.
2014-11-13T08:41:23Z loke: ...which then can be used for other CL's? not just clasp?
2014-11-13T08:41:44Z Shinmera: I'd hope so.
2014-11-13T08:41:48Z loke: Interesting
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2014-11-13T08:42:05Z Shinmera: You'd better ask him once he's online, I'm only relaying what I remember.
2014-11-13T08:42:19Z loke: OK, I'll do that. If I remember myself.
2014-11-13T08:42:32Z loke: I'm only superficially interested in anything C++.
2014-11-13T08:42:35Z Shinmera: My 'job' currently is only writing tools to make working with Qt/CommonQt a bit easier and lispier.
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2014-11-13T08:43:15Z Shinmera: So I don't know much about how the actual implementation of CommonQt works exactly.
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2014-11-13T08:44:05Z loke: Shinmera: Job as in paid job?
2014-11-13T08:44:15Z Shinmera: No, hence the quotes. It's just what I set as my current task.
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2014-11-13T08:45:08Z Shinmera: I wish I got paid for writing oepn source CL libraries, haha.
2014-11-13T08:45:10Z Shinmera: *open
2014-11-13T08:47:19Z Shinmera: (in case anyone's interested, the library I'm talking about is http://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ )
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2014-11-13T09:04:05Z axion: another newbie question
2014-11-13T09:04:12Z axion: is there a function that will apply a list to a function as its arguments?
2014-11-13T09:04:50Z Shinmera: apply?
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2014-11-13T09:05:10Z Shinmera: clhs apply
2014-11-13T09:05:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2014-11-13T09:05:17Z axion: thanks
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2014-11-13T10:26:33Z doh`: how to use setter func? (setf abc::d)
2014-11-13T10:28:16Z H4ns: (setf (abc::d) 1)
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2014-11-13T12:06:57Z rick-monster: these alsa midi CFFI bindings are killing me.  Haven't lost sleep like this since I was addicted to 'lemmings'...
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2014-11-13T12:12:20Z rick-monster: thinking now I should give up and write some glue code in C based on simple types, instead of delving into this rats nest of structs/unions via CFFI...
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2014-11-13T13:33:47Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-11-13T13:33:55Z Shinmera: Good afternoon.
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2014-11-13T13:40:45Z drmeister: beach: No problem - thank you.
2014-11-13T13:40:56Z drmeister: nyef: Good morning
2014-11-13T13:41:37Z Shinmera: Anything exciting going on in Lisp land?
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2014-11-13T13:42:34Z eudoxia: i should me studying for my midterms, so no
2014-11-13T13:42:59Z drmeister: Heck yeah - I'm starting to incorporate cleavir into clasp.
2014-11-13T13:43:06Z drmeister: And I should be preparing a midterm.
2014-11-13T13:43:26Z drmeister: :-/
2014-11-13T13:43:35Z Shinmera: drmeister: I've been trying to follow that for a bit; it's very interesting but unfortunately I'm by far not knowledgeable enough to really know what's going on when you and beach talk about it.
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2014-11-13T13:49:51Z drmeister: Shinmera: No problem, I feel the same way all the time.  With time, as you work at it things, they become clearer. There's always more to learn.
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2014-11-13T13:50:13Z Shinmera: Indeed. I'm more saying that I'm said I can't fully appreciate what you're doing!
2014-11-13T13:50:16Z Shinmera: *sad
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2014-11-13T13:53:57Z drmeister: Understood.
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2014-11-13T14:06:41Z drmeister: beach: The second problem with the nil hash-table looks like it's my code that is the problem - still tracking it down.
2014-11-13T14:07:39Z stassats: i hope you realize that beach is not here
2014-11-13T14:08:26Z drmeister: Yes, I do.   He checks the backlogged comments when he gets back.  I could use minion but - meh.
2014-11-13T14:08:52Z stassats: email?
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2014-11-13T14:09:08Z eudoxia: oh good heavens it's not like this is off topic
2014-11-13T14:09:19Z stassats: i'm good with it
2014-11-13T14:09:28Z stassats: but i would hate that kind of form of communication
2014-11-13T14:09:38Z drmeister: No, it's ok.  stassats is correct.
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2014-11-13T14:10:06Z stassats: no benefits of instant communication and now you have to grep logs for your name
2014-11-13T14:10:24Z drmeister: Some times I start typing without thinking.  No problem.
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2014-11-13T14:19:35Z drmeister: This is for general consumption.  The first time an S-expression has been converted into a Cleavir AST
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2014-11-13T14:20:30Z drmeister: http://imgur.com/eimVghV
2014-11-13T14:21:04Z drmeister: That's for   '(let ((x 10)) (if (> x 5) 1 2)
2014-11-13T14:21:08Z drmeister: Gotta run
2014-11-13T14:21:55Z eudoxia: neat
2014-11-13T14:23:19Z splittist: As an idle spectator I'm loving the beachmeister show.
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2014-11-13T14:38:00Z CrazyWoods: how to organize a large lisp project? etc.. scratch of a project start point
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2014-11-13T14:39:14Z stassats: minion: xach-asdf?
2014-11-13T14:39:15Z minion: xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html
2014-11-13T14:39:56Z dim: CrazyWoods: have a look at some existing projects to get an idea, (ql:where-is-system :something) then open it
2014-11-13T14:40:04Z dim: open a few of them and you will have a clear idea what to do
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2014-11-13T14:41:02Z CrazyWoods: dim: :)
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2014-11-13T14:41:18Z nyef: CrazyWoods: My main advice would be to have a src/ directory below your project directory to start with. Otherwise, as your project grows, you'll start losing track of which bits are the source to your project and which bits are more about the infrastructure.
2014-11-13T14:42:21Z Shinmera: I'd say that's mostly preference. Personally I find an extra src/ folder superfluous
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2014-11-13T14:42:34Z stassats: i don't like src either
2014-11-13T14:42:40Z stassats: just one more level i have to go to find sources
2014-11-13T14:43:06Z stassats: unless you have a bazillion of them, but i'd split into separate projects then
2014-11-13T14:43:18Z nyef: ... like with SBCL?
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2014-11-13T14:44:38Z stassats: the only infrastructure i have is .asd
2014-11-13T14:44:39Z CrazyWoods: nyef: what shall i do if it's a mix programming project(Python & Java & Shell)
2014-11-13T14:44:45Z stassats: and README, at the most
2014-11-13T14:44:51Z stassats: SBCL is a special case
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2014-11-13T15:00:33Z Cymew: dim: Do like everyone else and make up your own way that is?
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2014-11-13T15:09:52Z jasom: is it possible to get git-filter-branch to also rewrite tags?
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2014-11-13T15:10:17Z H4ns: maybe that is a question more suitable for a git related channel?
2014-11-13T15:11:17Z CrazyWoods: i want to use lisp to write the server app while other client will call the app's api, what shall i do
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2014-11-13T15:12:06Z jasom: H4ns: sorry, wrong channel
2014-11-13T15:12:50Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: you should write the program to do it.
2014-11-13T15:13:07Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: if you want more specific answer, you'll have to ask more specific questions.
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2014-11-13T15:14:39Z eudoxia: CrazyWoods: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman
2014-11-13T15:14:43Z eudoxia: is a neat little web framework
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2014-11-13T15:16:01Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: use the lisp to implement the backend then export restful api for client to used, just use lisp to build the restful api front or have other language to do this job?
2014-11-13T15:16:35Z nyef: CrazyWoods: Client-server? Currently I have separate projects for the client and the server at work, but I'm looking at doing a small client/serverish thing (okay, it's an embedded device and a control program on my computer) that will probably be a single project.
2014-11-13T15:17:10Z eudoxia: CrazyWoods: for the client, you'll want to use Drakma, probably
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2014-11-13T15:17:31Z nyef: CrazyWoods: At work the server is Lisp, and one of several clients is Lisp, but the rest is Java, Javascript, Objective C, PHP, what have you. For my personal thing, the "server" would be in C and the client in Lisp.
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2014-11-13T15:18:42Z sol__: hey guys, how can i write a binary array to file?
2014-11-13T15:18:50Z stassats: clhs write-sequence
2014-11-13T15:18:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_seq.htm
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2014-11-13T15:20:20Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: lisp works well for both client and server side restful apis
2014-11-13T15:20:56Z sol__: stassats, "The value 34 is not of the expected type CHARACTER."
2014-11-13T15:21:06Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: so if what you want is write lisp, then just go ahead and do it.  i use hunchentoot, drakma and yason for that kind of stuff, but that is just my own preference.
2014-11-13T15:21:20Z sol__: (write-sequence binarr file-stream)
2014-11-13T15:21:29Z CrazyWoods: nyef: yes, it's a Client-Server. which protocol shall i use if more than one language are used for client server arch?
2014-11-13T15:21:53Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: ok
2014-11-13T15:22:20Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: restful json is popular
2014-11-13T15:22:33Z oGMo: sol__: you need to open the file with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2014-11-13T15:22:37Z nyef: Yeah, go with RESTful JSON.
2014-11-13T15:22:37Z splittist: CrazyWoods: you should take a leaf from the X windows book and use the universal language of lists and atoms (;
2014-11-13T15:23:31Z sol__: oGMo, thanks it worked
2014-11-13T15:24:07Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: So just write the program then export it as a restful api?
2014-11-13T15:24:18Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: yeah, why not?
2014-11-13T15:24:24Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: what makes you ask?
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2014-11-13T15:25:54Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: i think they should call each other with socket of native interface if they are on the same machine
2014-11-13T15:26:20Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: that's why i ask
2014-11-13T15:26:30Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: why do you think so?
2014-11-13T15:26:58Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: performance
2014-11-13T15:27:01Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: are you interested in exporting an api for several clients, written in all kinds of languages?  if so, use restful json.  if not, then what are your requirements?
2014-11-13T15:27:11Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: how does performance matter?
2014-11-13T15:28:01Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: C & Lisp & Python & Golang, i use these language in my project, some are on server side while other are on client side
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2014-11-13T15:28:54Z H4ns: CrazyWoods: okay, and what about the performance thing, how does it matter?
2014-11-13T15:29:49Z CrazyWoods: H4ns: Python or Golang for hander the client request while lisp and C serve as the backend
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2014-11-13T15:36:00Z stassats: python and performance?
2014-11-13T15:36:18Z stassats: or are you just trying to cram different langauges together for no apparent reason?
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2014-11-13T15:39:02Z drmeister: What I meant to say above is that that was the first time an sexp was converted into an ast _within clasp_.
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2014-11-13T15:45:59Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2014-11-13T15:46:09Z splittist: Yo beach!
2014-11-13T15:46:19Z beach: drmeister: I believe I fixed the problem.
2014-11-13T15:47:02Z beach: You also need to look at the modifications of the "hostile" environment methods; I added an initarg that you should probably duplicate.
2014-11-13T15:47:09Z drmeister: Fantastic!  I'll be in my lab in 15 min.
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2014-11-13T15:47:41Z drmeister: Did you see the ast I generated above?
2014-11-13T15:47:43Z beach: splittist: Glad you like the show :)
2014-11-13T15:47:47Z beach: Yes, I did.
2014-11-13T15:47:55Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-11-13T15:47:56Z beach: I generated it myself too in order to check the drawing.
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2014-11-13T15:48:40Z beach: Hey nyef.  I added some more projects to the improved project page: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2014-11-13T15:48:56Z beach: Accounting library and interactive accounting system.
2014-11-13T15:49:07Z drmeister: The second problem with the nil hash-table may be a problem in clasp. I inserted some print statements in your code and the problem went away. Must dig deeper.
2014-11-13T15:49:27Z beach: Yeah, I couldn't reproduce it here.
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2014-11-13T15:51:39Z drmeister: You are clearly rewinding the special *table* but when it was accessed it was nil. How the heck can anything in clasp work if there are problems binding specials?  Rhetorical question- must dig deeper.
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2014-11-13T15:53:04Z drmeister: I will try to run cleavir in SBCL and clasp to determine if problems are in clasp or cleavir.
2014-11-13T15:53:57Z drmeister: Rewinding -> rebinding
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2014-11-13T16:10:03Z nyef: You know what's annoying? Microwave ovens and wireless internet using the same frequencies.
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2014-11-13T16:10:40Z nyef: Practical upshot: Re-heating coffee can knock your computer offline.
2014-11-13T16:10:44Z stassats: can you microwave food with a wireless router?
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2014-11-13T16:11:51Z nyef: Can you build a good, strong wireless repeater out of a microwave?
2014-11-13T16:12:20Z alpha-: jammer
2014-11-13T16:12:22Z alpha-: yeah
2014-11-13T16:12:27Z alpha-: repeater, probably not
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2014-11-13T16:14:47Z drmeister: You know what's really annoying?   Office chairs that slowly, over the course of hours, lower your seat so that you feel like you are shrinking.
2014-11-13T16:15:02Z drmeister: I have far too many of those in my life.
2014-11-13T16:15:34Z stassats: are you sure you are not shrinking?
2014-11-13T16:15:36Z nyef: alpha-: My complaint is that the microwave oven already IS a jammer.
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2014-11-13T16:15:54Z drmeister: Pretty sure.
2014-11-13T16:16:12Z nyef: drmeister: The other annoying one is the office chair where the cylinder is broken such that it props the seat up as long as nobody sits in it, then immediately sinks as low as it can go whenever anyone does.
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2014-11-13T16:17:36Z drmeister: nyef: Agreed
2014-11-13T16:18:05Z nyef: Or the one where there's a few screws missing, so the entire thing is wobbly...
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2014-11-13T16:24:13Z rick-monster: I'm somehow managing to wrap these CEPH rados bindings round trivial-gray-streams despite having not much of a clue what's going on. One thing that has me somewhat foxed is how to connect the 2nd argument to read-char (the one that specifies whether or not to throw an error on EOF) to my (defmethod stream-read-char
2014-11-13T16:24:40Z stassats: gray streams use :eof
2014-11-13T16:25:34Z stassats: as in, always
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2014-11-13T16:26:51Z nyef: rick-monster: First, http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html may be helpful here. Second, anywhere that this document specifies that a function returns true or false (or returns a boolean), always use T or NIL otherwise SBCL might pitch a fit at some point down the line.
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2014-11-13T16:30:37Z rick-monster: awesome! thanks chaps that works now...
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2014-11-13T16:32:31Z drmeister: beach: Did you push the new code to github?
2014-11-13T16:33:04Z drmeister: Time to figure out how to pull the changes into a fork of SICL
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2014-11-13T16:33:16Z beach: drmeister: I did.
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2014-11-13T16:33:27Z drmeister: Ok - I'm on it.
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2014-11-13T17:22:06Z beach: I replaced the "X11 server" project as suggested by stassats and replaced it by a "compositing display server" project.  I also added several new projects.  http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2014-11-13T17:22:27Z drmeister: beach: It is generating the AST now but I suspect I have a problem with the garbage collection.  The special *table* is being bound to a hash-table but when it gets into stream-draw-ast *table* is nil -  I haven't seen a problem like this in several months.  I'm on it.
2014-11-13T17:22:44Z beach: OK.
2014-11-13T17:23:00Z beach: I have never seen anything like it here, so I suspect it must be Clasp specific.
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2014-11-13T18:23:39Z luis: Darn, this WJ guy on c.l.l is very annoying. :(
2014-11-13T18:25:43Z sol__: what's c.l.l?
2014-11-13T18:26:53Z xristos: comp.lang.lisp
2014-11-13T18:27:06Z xristos: (usenet)
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2014-11-13T18:35:24Z luis: minion: c.l.l
2014-11-13T18:35:24Z minion: c.l.l: comp.lang.lisp is a Lisp-related Usenet group, available spam-free from individual.net, eternal-september.org, or a university or ISP near you
2014-11-13T18:35:51Z luis: I've found that spam-free doesn't mean WJ-free
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2014-11-13T19:05:57Z ferada: that's what killfiles are for
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2014-11-13T19:08:31Z drmeister: Follow up on his posts with examples of how you would implement solutions in this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck
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2014-11-13T19:10:29Z drmeister: It will lower the signal-to-noise about as much as it will raise the amusement-to-noise ratio.
2014-11-13T19:10:42Z pnpuff: hi all
2014-11-13T19:11:11Z pnpuff: drmeister: how is going with the release of your compiler?
2014-11-13T19:11:40Z drmeister: That old thing?   I'm on to my next compiler.
2014-11-13T19:12:16Z drmeister: pnpuff: I released clasp a couple of months ago.  I'm currently incorporating beach's cleavir compiler front end to speed things up.
2014-11-13T19:12:29Z pnpuff: wow... I'm not informed about your new compiler
2014-11-13T19:13:06Z drmeister: Neither am I - yet.   Here is the github repo for "clasp"   https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
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2014-11-13T19:14:11Z pnpuff: Yes, I see. Very good!
2014-11-13T19:14:28Z drmeister: I don't want to confuse you - "clasp" is the new Common Lisp implementation that interoperates with C++ and uses LLVM as the backend.  I'm improving Clasp's compiler by incorporating a new compiler front end that beach developed.
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2014-11-13T21:20:34Z [[[derek]]]: Hey folks, I'm new to lisp and trying to write a chess game. I want to define a lot of variables for each peice, eg *knight-black* etc. What is the easiest way to do this with using as little code as possible?
2014-11-13T21:22:55Z stassats: the easiest way is not to
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2014-11-13T21:23:12Z Grue`: it's not difficult to write a macro that makes a bunch of defparameters, but the real problem is that what you want to do is a bad approach
2014-11-13T21:24:04Z [[[derek]]]: I'm using unicode as symbols for the chess peices so when I print out the board in console I can tell whats going on, I want a way to link those symbols into words so I don't need to keep copy and pasting the unicode
2014-11-13T21:24:10Z Grue`: if you were writing a Go game, would you create 19x19 variables?
2014-11-13T21:25:00Z Grue`: oh, then you need an alist or hashtable
2014-11-13T21:25:24Z stassats: i used :bp :wp etc
2014-11-13T21:25:49Z [[[derek]]]: hum
2014-11-13T21:25:54Z [[[derek]]]: that sounds like a good idea
2014-11-13T21:26:28Z Grue`: clhs pairlis
2014-11-13T21:26:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pairli.htm
2014-11-13T21:26:41Z Grue`: or something
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2014-11-13T21:29:16Z [[[derek]]]: cheers, I'll take a look
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2014-11-13T21:34:33Z nyef: Grue`: For a Go game, I'd be using pairs of 19-element FIXNUM vectors, one to show where there are stones and the other to show their colors, as an initial representation.
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2014-11-13T21:36:12Z jasom: 2 19x19 bit vectors?
2014-11-13T21:36:18Z [[[derek]]]: I'm not very good at this language yet, but so far I'm really enjoying the experiance, it's a great language you guys have got here.
2014-11-13T21:36:36Z drewc: [[[derek]]]: That is a bad approach though... if you are using unicode in your lisp implementation, then there is the simple : (list (char-name #\U2654) (char-code #\U2654) (princ-to-string #\U2654)) =>("WHITE_CHESS_KING" 9812 "♔")
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2014-11-13T21:39:23Z drewc: (cons (lisp-implementation-type) (lisp-implementation-version)) => ("SBCL" . "1.1.13")
2014-11-13T21:40:30Z drewc plays chess and has written a number of things involving it :)
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2014-11-13T21:42:27Z [[[derek]]]: I probelly should do that
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2014-11-13T21:44:38Z nyef: jasom: I wouldn't use bit-vectors. I'm far, far too comfortable working with integers as bitfields.
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2014-11-13T21:45:55Z drmeister: The compile-time semantics of DEFPARAMETER and DEFVAR is to declare the symbols as special in the compile-time environment.   I thought that was done by defining these macros with something like `(progn (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-top-level :execute) (sys:*make-special ',var)) ...)    For some reason the ECL code that I have doesn't do that.
2014-11-13T21:45:56Z jasom: nyef: I am to (I blame completely broke compiler implementations of C bitfields)
2014-11-13T21:46:13Z drmeister: *:load-toplevel
2014-11-13T21:46:24Z jasom: drmeister: you could just make them special-forms that directly modify the compilation environment
2014-11-13T21:46:44Z nyef: Nevermind broken compiler implementations, how about complete unportability of the resulting structures?
2014-11-13T21:47:14Z drmeister: jasom: I could, but that would be work.  Can I do it with eval-when?
2014-11-13T21:48:57Z jasom: drmeister: I don't see why not
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2014-11-13T21:49:29Z drmeister: Currently it's broken in Clasp,   defparameter and defvar have no compile-time side effects.  My compiler used to watch for those symbols in top level forms (so I guess they were sort of special forms) and do the compile-time side effects but I "fixed" it to not do that a while ago expecting the macros to pick up the slack.   I just discovered that I was
2014-11-13T21:49:29Z drmeister: wrong about that.
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2014-11-13T21:52:13Z drmeister: Here is my current DEFVAR macro.
2014-11-13T21:52:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gstGvq4p
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2014-11-13T21:52:48Z drmeister: Here is what I think will give me the correct compile-time and load-time/execute semantics:
2014-11-13T21:52:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PZ5jZ0Ba
2014-11-13T21:53:10Z drmeister: The first one is straight from the ECL source code (I believe).
2014-11-13T21:53:45Z drmeister: Could some kind soul who has a deep understanding of compile-time issues take a look at the second one and tell me if that will give me the correct behavior?
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2014-11-13T21:54:27Z Bicyclidine: won't that call *make-special twice at compile time?
2014-11-13T21:55:59Z [[[derek]]]: is there anyway to get multiple values from a list by using multiple keys? Like (getf *blagh* :key1 :key2 :key3) => (value1 value2 value3)
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2014-11-13T21:57:31Z jasom: [[[derek]]]: for plists not anything built-in; you can probably do it yourself though.  With alists you can use remove-if-not
2014-11-13T21:57:33Z drewc: (mapcar (lambda (key) (getf *blagh* keys)) (list :key1 :key2 :key3)) => (value1 value2 value3)
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2014-11-13T21:57:52Z jasom: drewc: okay, but that walks the list multiple times
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2014-11-13T21:58:00Z drewc: true
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2014-11-13T21:58:07Z [[[derek]]]: thank you!
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2014-11-13T21:58:32Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: You are referring to the second *make-special call in the (if *bytecodes-compiler* if statement?
2014-11-13T21:58:37Z jasom: [[[derek]]]: in general, if you have a list of things, and you want to get a list of calling a function on things, you want mapcar
2014-11-13T21:58:52Z [[[derek]]]: yeah I was thinking that but I was not to sure how to implement it
2014-11-13T21:59:04Z drewc: (loop for item in *blagh* when (member item '(:key1 :key2 :key3) collect item)
2014-11-13T21:59:21Z jasom: [[[derek]]]: or even N-lists of things (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) => (5 7 9)
2014-11-13T21:59:24Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: well, the existence of two calls, yeah.
2014-11-13T21:59:26Z nyef: [[[derek]]]: (destructuring-bind (&key key1 key2 key3 &allow-other-keys) *blagh* (list key1 key2 key3))
2014-11-13T21:59:29Z jasom: drewc: not quote, you need on by cdr
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2014-11-13T22:00:00Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Hang on - I don't recall what I did to fake the byte code compiler.
2014-11-13T22:00:04Z jasom: (loop for (key . value) on *blagh by cdr when (member item '(:key1 :key2 :key3)) collect (Car value))
2014-11-13T22:00:10Z drewc: jasom: yup, typed that here instead of the REPL :|
2014-11-13T22:00:17Z jasom: (loop for (key . value) on *blagh by cddr when (member item '(:key1 :key2 :key3)) collect (Car value))
2014-11-13T22:00:22Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Sorry, I should have read it more carefully and investigated that.   Duh.
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2014-11-13T22:07:44Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: But hang on - in the original defvar the IF statement at the bottom won't be evaluated at compile-time so it can't be responsible for declaring the var as special in the compile-time environment.
2014-11-13T22:07:48Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uu6HcFEt
2014-11-13T22:07:57Z drmeister: Do I read that correctly?
2014-11-13T22:08:24Z Bicyclidine: Uh, what/
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2014-11-13T22:08:36Z Bicyclidine: it has eval-when compile-toplevel, that's all i'm looking at.
2014-11-13T22:08:42Z Bicyclidine: well, and it's top level.
2014-11-13T22:08:45Z Grue`: clhs get_properties
2014-11-13T22:08:45Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for get_properties.
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2014-11-13T22:08:51Z Grue`: clhs get-properties
2014-11-13T22:08:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_pr.htm
2014-11-13T22:09:00Z Grue`: re: getting several values from plist
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2014-11-13T22:10:38Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: I'm looking at the original definition from ECL - I'm trying to understand what the EVAL-WHEN(s) in the ,(if *bytecodes-compiler* `(eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (sys:*make-special ',var)) `(eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (si::register-global ',var))) are doing
2014-11-13T22:10:40Z jasom: Grue`: you'd need to iteratively or recursively call that though; it only gets the first one
2014-11-13T22:11:05Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: they call sys:*make-special or si::register-global at compile time depending on whether *bytecodes-compiler* is true.
2014-11-13T22:11:19Z drmeister: Or its that the ,if(...) is evaluated at macro expansion time.
2014-11-13T22:11:43Z Bicyclidine: well, yes, that's what the , is for
2014-11-13T22:11:57Z drmeister: And that happens at compile time because the ,if(...) gets evaluated at macro-expansion time at compile-time.   Ok - got it.
2014-11-13T22:12:20Z Bicyclidine: point is that yoru version will have (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (sys:*make-special ',var)) twice.
2014-11-13T22:13:05Z jasom: also doesn't locally make things not top-level?
2014-11-13T22:13:49Z jasom: nope, I'm wrong
2014-11-13T22:15:11Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Yes, I see that now.
2014-11-13T22:16:01Z drmeister: It begs the question though - why aren't these variables being declared special in the compile-time environment.
2014-11-13T22:16:22Z drmeister: They currently aren't in Clasp.   Now I have *bytecodes-compiler* --> nil.
2014-11-13T22:17:01Z drmeister: So it should be calling si::register-global at compile time - so I better check and see if si::register-global declares variables as being special.
2014-11-13T22:17:09Z Bicyclidine: sounds like a plan
2014-11-13T22:17:21Z nyef: Also what sys:*make-special does.
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2014-11-13T22:18:12Z drmeister: Everything has been working until now because I load all of the Common Lisp source code before I compile file it.  So all defparameter/defvar/defconstants are special in the runtime environment when I compile file the source files.
2014-11-13T22:19:38Z drmeister: But user code - like Cleavir is failing because defparameter doesn't have a compile-time side effect:    (defparameter *table* nil) (defun a () (print *table*)) (defun b () (let ((*table* 10)) (a))) (b)     fails
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2014-11-13T22:23:32Z drmeister: Argh - now I remember.  I'm my own worst enemy sometimes.  I "fixed" register-global at the same time so that it would augment a global compile-time environment rather than the runtime environment.   I was stumbling towards something like beach's global environment objects.
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2014-11-13T22:27:44Z drmeister: The ECL versions of DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER/DEFCONSTANT should have the appropriate compile-time behavior if I (defun register-global (var) (si:*make-special var))
2014-11-13T22:28:36Z drmeister: I should talk to beach about this more - my way of dealing with environments is a bit sloppy.
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2014-11-13T23:44:56Z akkad: .
2014-11-13T23:45:27Z akkad: someone bounce jortanna for spam
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