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2014-11-12T00:10:42Z akkad: kohryu: check out :clack or :restas
2014-11-12T00:11:01Z akkad: kohryu: they build on hunchentoot
2014-11-12T00:11:16Z akkad: to provide the higher level features you can use to do logins etc
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2014-11-12T00:19:27Z freehck: How Peter Seibel uses uninitialized slots here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html
2014-11-12T00:19:42Z freehck: in chapter Object Initialization
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2014-11-12T00:22:49Z freehck: I constantly catch an error "The slot CL-FROLOV::CELLS is unbound in the object"
2014-11-12T00:22:54Z freehck: And it's true
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2014-11-12T00:23:29Z freehck: When I call initialize-instance it's specifically unbound. How could be another?
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2014-11-12T00:25:21Z vowyer_: If it isn't initialized in initialize-instance or with :initform or :initarg, then it will be unbound
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2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck: in Seibel's example:
2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck: (defclass bank-account ()
2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck:   ((customer-name
2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck:     :initarg :customer-name
2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck:     :initform (error "Must supply a customer name."))
2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck:    (balance
2014-11-12T00:26:27Z freehck:     :initarg :balance
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2014-11-12T00:26:28Z freehck:     :initform 0)
2014-11-12T00:26:28Z freehck:    (account-number
2014-11-12T00:26:29Z freehck:     :initform (incf *account-numbers*))
2014-11-12T00:26:29Z freehck:    account-type))
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2014-11-12T00:28:04Z freehck: vowyer_: and in his example he does next:
2014-11-12T00:28:04Z freehck: (setf (slot-value account 'account-type) ...
2014-11-12T00:29:56Z freehck: wow, I got
2014-11-12T00:29:57Z vowyer_: Looks correct, account-type is unbound
2014-11-12T00:30:26Z freehck: I tried to bound slot-value before using setf
2014-11-12T00:30:47Z vowyer_: inside initialize-instance?
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2014-11-12T00:31:49Z freehck: yep, I had:
2014-11-12T00:31:49Z freehck: (let ((cells (slot-value grid 'cells)))
2014-11-12T00:31:49Z freehck:   (setf cells (make-array cells-amount)) ...
2014-11-12T00:32:05Z freehck: this setf seems to be a very interesting magic
2014-11-12T00:33:16Z freehck: now I have: (setf (slot-value grid 'cells) (make-array cells-amount))
2014-11-12T00:33:20Z freehck: And it does work
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2014-11-12T00:40:58Z kohryu: akkad: thx
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2014-11-12T00:50:18Z akkad: kohryu: np
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2014-11-12T01:08:31Z PuercoPop: freehck: you can even do (defun (setf foo) ...) as a way to inform setf how to setf a new form. There is also the more general way define-setf-expander
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2014-11-12T01:36:26Z freehck: PuercoPop: Yes, I've already read it in PCL, but nevertheless this macro frightens me a little. )
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2014-11-12T02:26:38Z loke: Hmm... Can I assume that the second return value from CL-PPCRE:SCAN-TO-STRINGS of a regex with a single parenthesised expression conforms to the type declaration (or null (simple-array simple-string (*))) ?
2014-11-12T02:27:01Z loke: Sorry
2014-11-12T02:27:08Z loke: I mean (or null (simple-array simple-string (1)))
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2014-11-12T03:18:40Z pillton: Doesn't the length depend on the number of blocks to match?
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2014-11-12T03:18:48Z loke: yes
2014-11-12T03:18:50Z pillton: i.e. It can be more than one.
2014-11-12T03:18:59Z loke: pillton: in this case I have a single parnensised block
2014-11-12T03:19:18Z loke: so, if I match for example "foo([0-9]+)"
2014-11-12T03:19:26Z pillton: I'd say so then. You will find out quickly enough.
2014-11-12T03:19:46Z loke: pillton: Yes, my question was more related to simple-string
2014-11-12T03:19:55Z loke: Are they actually simple-string's?
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2014-11-12T03:20:25Z pillton: Hmm I don't know. Is there an element type option to create scanner?
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2014-11-12T03:21:35Z pillton: Surely the element type should match the string passed to the scanner.
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2014-11-12T03:32:50Z Bike: well, there's that sharedp thing which implies it could return a non simple string
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2014-11-12T03:53:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-11-12T03:56:28Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2014-11-12T04:00:41Z pjb: beach: you can use M-: (slime-current-package) RET to know the current package in a .lisp buffer with slime.
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2014-11-12T04:01:40Z beach: Sure, but that takes longer than M-< ... C-x C-x.
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2014-11-12T04:17:45Z pjb: beach: actually, slime displays the current package name in the mode line.  You can see it unless erc inserts a long list of channels :-)  Hence using a different emacs instance for programming and for ircing.
2014-11-12T04:19:00Z beach: Yeah, I see what you mean.  It is almost always hidden for me, partly because I also use long file names.
2014-11-12T04:19:29Z beach: I don't use the same Emacs instance for IRC and programming.
2014-11-12T04:19:53Z beach: And I participate in a single IRC channel anyway.
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2014-11-12T04:20:32Z beach: Given the number of newbies lately, that single channel already takes a lot of time.
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2014-11-12T04:25:20Z pjb: There are good laughts to have in #lisp: "<20:54:34><micahjam97> I thought that the only data types in CL were symbols and numbers."
2014-11-12T04:25:45Z beach: Yeah, there have been a few goodies lately.
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2014-11-12T04:33:29Z Zhivago: Ideally numbers would be symbols. :)
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2014-11-12T04:33:44Z Zhivago: In which case, you'd want symbols and objects, which sounds pretty good.
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2014-11-12T04:47:23Z drewc: (defun .+ (&rest symbols) (if (not symbols) 0 (+ (parse-number:parse-number (symbol-name (first symbols))) (apply #'.+ (rest symbols)))))
2014-11-12T04:47:45Z drewc: (.+ '|5| '|3| '|3|) => 11
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2014-11-12T04:58:28Z loke: pjb: numbers?
2014-11-12T04:58:51Z loke: pjb: What are these newfnagled numbers of which you speak? I see no reference to such things in the McCarthy paper
2014-11-12T04:59:42Z loke: Besides Alonso Church proved that numbers are not necessary
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2014-11-12T05:34:26Z axion: what's the best way to read an external file containing a lisp form into a variable?
2014-11-12T05:35:14Z beach: (defparameter *var* (with-open-file (stream "filename" :direction :input) (read stream)))
2014-11-12T05:35:21Z beach: ... something like that.
2014-11-12T05:36:14Z axion: thanks beach
2014-11-12T05:36:23Z beach: Anytime.
2014-11-12T05:37:23Z drewc: (with-open-file (s #P"/tmp/foo" :direction :input) (defparameter *foo* (read s))) <--- I did it, but then I see that beach did it first :)
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2014-11-12T05:49:03Z beach: So you say, so you say.
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2014-11-12T06:28:59Z pjb: beach: I use (defparameter *foo* (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents #P"~/foo.sexp" :if-does-not-exist 42))
2014-11-12T06:29:33Z pjb: Not having defparameter be a toplevel form can be problematic.
2014-11-12T06:29:45Z pjb: And you'd want to handle the file does not exist error.
2014-11-12T06:31:22Z pjb: There's also an :external-format parameter.
2014-11-12T06:31:50Z beach: The defparameter in my code above is a top-level form.
2014-11-12T06:32:09Z pjb: Yes, I stopped at drewc's.
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2014-11-12T06:32:24Z pjb: and I should have addressed axion, sorry.
2014-11-12T06:32:31Z axion: yep, i caught it, thanks :)
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2014-11-12T06:36:32Z shortCircuit__: hy
2014-11-12T06:37:04Z shortCircuit__: does anyone know bit manipulation, like & >> ?
2014-11-12T06:37:11Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-12T06:37:15Z shortCircuit__: how 0xFF & (color_value >> 0x10); or 0xFF & (color_value >> 0x20); gives red?
2014-11-12T06:37:27Z shortCircuit__: 0xFF is 255, I calculated
2014-11-12T06:37:29Z beach: clhs ash
2014-11-12T06:37:30Z pjb: Please, don't compare lisp bit manipulation to C. C is so poor at bit manipulation!
2014-11-12T06:37:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ash.htm
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2014-11-12T06:37:47Z beach: clhs logand
2014-11-12T06:37:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
2014-11-12T06:37:49Z shortCircuit__: no no, I want to know the maths behind it
2014-11-12T06:38:07Z pjb: (ldb (byte 4 4) color-value)
2014-11-12T06:38:31Z pjb: Use ldb and dpb to work with bit fields, not with shift and logand.
2014-11-12T06:38:37Z shortCircuit__: ok
2014-11-12T06:38:41Z shortCircuit__: but the maths
2014-11-12T06:38:51Z chu: Read wikipepdia
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2014-11-12T06:39:04Z beach: shortCircuit__: A color is probably considered to be a 24-bit unsigned integer.
2014-11-12T06:39:15Z beach: shortCircuit__: In base 2.
2014-11-12T06:39:18Z shortCircuit__: ok
2014-11-12T06:39:26Z pjb: If you want to do arithmetic, then use (mod (truncate color-value 16) 16)
2014-11-12T06:40:05Z beach: shortCircuit__: So you need to extract the three individual 8-bit fields representing each color.
2014-11-12T06:41:08Z shortCircuit__: yes. I understand that. one is and shift  10., that gives red, and shift with 8 gives green
2014-11-12T06:41:13Z pjb: (defparameter *red* (byte 8 16) ) (defparameter *green* (byte 8 8)) (defparameter *blue* (byte 8 0))  (ldb *red* color)   (dpb new-blue *blue* old-color)
2014-11-12T06:41:29Z beach: shortCircuit__: So what is it that you do not understand?
2014-11-12T06:41:39Z shortCircuit__: how does it work.
2014-11-12T06:41:47Z beach: *sigh*
2014-11-12T06:41:53Z shortCircuit__: and why 10 not 20
2014-11-12T06:41:57Z beach: shortCircuit__: It works quite well, thank you very much.
2014-11-12T06:42:02Z shortCircuit__: :D
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2014-11-12T06:43:46Z pjb: shortCircuit__: do you understand how you can define a bijection e: [0,255]x[0,255] -> [0,65535] e(r,g)=r*256+g
2014-11-12T06:44:08Z pjb: e^1(c) = (r div 256,r mod 256)
2014-11-12T06:44:35Z beach: shortCircuit__: We need to know how the color is represented.  Can you tell us?
2014-11-12T06:44:50Z shortCircuit__: the last line is difficult e!1. the color is in hex
2014-11-12T06:44:57Z pjb: similarly, you can define such a bijection between [0,255]x[0,255]x[0,255] and [0,16777215].
2014-11-12T06:45:07Z beach gives up.
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2014-11-12T06:45:27Z pjb: e^1 is e⁻¹
2014-11-12T06:45:35Z pjb: this is the inverse function of e.
2014-11-12T06:45:40Z shortCircuit__: no no the this (r div 256,r mod 256)
2014-11-12T06:45:55Z pjb: a div b is the integer division of a by b.
2014-11-12T06:46:00Z shortCircuit__: ok
2014-11-12T06:46:08Z shortCircuit__: r%256 thats the remainder
2014-11-12T06:46:08Z pjb: a mod b is the modulo of the division of a by b.
2014-11-12T06:46:14Z beach: Have fun guys.
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2014-11-12T06:46:23Z shortCircuit__ is having fun
2014-11-12T06:47:44Z axion: is there a better way to the full path of a sub-directory relative to the current package's directory than this?: (asdf/system:system-relative-pathname (intern (string-downcase (package-name *package*))) "subdir")
2014-11-12T06:47:58Z pjb: Now of course, since the processors often have instructions to extract or modify bit fields in registers, we can use ldb or dpb instead of integer divisions and modulo.
2014-11-12T06:48:16Z shortCircuit__: ok
2014-11-12T06:48:31Z pjb: axion: you should use system instead of package.  Who says there's a direct mapping from package name to system (there is not!)?
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2014-11-12T06:49:24Z axion: there will be in this case, but to make it portable, can you give me a suggestion?
2014-11-12T06:50:33Z pjb: It's as portable as asdf.  What more do you want?
2014-11-12T06:53:46Z axion: i'm not sure how to "use system instead of package"
2014-11-12T06:54:40Z Zhivago: The term 'system' fits what you're trying to say better than 'package'.
2014-11-12T06:54:50Z Zhivago: 'package' has a distinct meaning in CL.
2014-11-12T06:54:53Z pjb: axion: (quicklisp-client:system-list)
2014-11-12T06:55:45Z pjb: axion: also be very careful, because a package can be built by several different systems (loaded or not loaded).
2014-11-12T06:56:08Z axion: what i mean to say, is how can i get the name of the system that calls this required system?
2014-11-12T06:56:18Z pjb: axion: for example, you could have two systems:  :sys1 and :sys1-test  that load definitions in the same package named "SYS".
2014-11-12T06:57:17Z axion: this function is part of a system that i use in all other systems
2014-11-12T07:01:22Z pjb: axion: (com.informatimago.tools.manifest:system-depends-on/recursive (ql-dist:name (first (quicklisp-client:system-list))))
2014-11-12T07:01:57Z pjb: Oops, sorry, it's the reverse your want.
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2014-11-12T07:06:42Z Vivitron: axion: I use asdf:find-system on the package name; check if one exists; if it doesn't give up and print a failure message
2014-11-12T07:07:06Z pjb: (let ((called-system  (first (quicklisp-client:system-list))))  (remove-if-not (lambda (sys) (handler-case (let ((sysname (ql-dist:name sys))) (member (ql-dist:name called-system) (com.informatimago.tools.manifest:system-depends-on/recursive sysname) :test (function string=))) (error () nil)))  (quicklisp-client:system-list)))
2014-11-12T07:07:49Z pjb: You may want to use com.informatimago.tools.manifest:system-depends-on instead of com.informatimago.tools.manifest:system-depends-on/recursive perhaps.
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2014-11-12T07:41:30Z chebert: is this common lisp?
2014-11-12T07:42:01Z Bike: gestures at topic
2014-11-12T07:42:02Z pjb: YEs!
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2014-11-12T07:42:19Z pjb: Bike: admit it, we have a winner here!
2014-11-12T07:42:31Z chebert: oh sweet. first time using emacs as an irc client haha
2014-11-12T07:42:49Z Bike: i'll enter them into the washing machine raffle
2014-11-12T07:43:11Z chebert: can I ask all of my thousand lisp questions?
2014-11-12T07:43:17Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-12T07:44:59Z chebert: so firstly, I'm looking for some functional data structures. records/maps/vectors
2014-11-12T07:45:59Z chebert: any library suggestions? or is that not really how CL is used?
2014-11-12T07:46:17Z Bike: maybe FSet
2014-11-12T07:46:37Z Bike: http://common-lisp.net/project/fset/Site/index.html
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2014-11-12T07:47:56Z pjb: chebert: you may search on http://www.cliki.net/
2014-11-12T07:48:28Z H4ns: chebert: you can ask questions.  with respect to data types, some people choose to use libraries like fset, but many just use what cl provides
2014-11-12T07:48:56Z chebert: actually I have. I've heard of FSET, but there's a lot of libs and its hard to tell what's actually being used, and what's dead or unfinished
2014-11-12T07:49:51Z pjb: Perhaps you could start a curated library of libraries, gathering only libraries that are finished and used?
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2014-11-12T07:50:18Z pjb: You could ask Xach how to make a new quicklisp distribution for those curated libraries.
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2014-11-12T07:51:45Z H4ns: chebert: yeah, that is kind of a problem.  in particular with data structure libraries, there are good chances that something works even though it has not changed in a long time, as cl did not change in a long time.
2014-11-12T07:52:46Z chebert: yup. I figured asking on irc was the easiest way to learn
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2014-11-12T07:52:58Z chebert: :)
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2014-11-12T07:53:26Z H4ns: you'll get better results if you follow a book and only ask for clarification in irc :)
2014-11-12T07:55:00Z chebert: what books go over libraries?
2014-11-12T07:55:11Z pjb: None :-)
2014-11-12T07:55:21Z H4ns: none.  asking about recommended libraries is fine, of course, sorry.
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2014-11-12T07:56:59Z pjb: chebert: you may also have a look at http://quickdocs.org  But there, the filter is whether the site programmers was about to scan the docstrings of the libraries or not.  For some reason, he had difficulties with my libraries…
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2014-11-12T07:57:50Z chebert: oh that's new to me thanks
2014-11-12T07:57:58Z pjb: What's nice looking is often not that useful.
2014-11-12T07:59:16Z pjb: I guess I will have to patch it myself…
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2014-11-12T08:08:42Z chebert: I think fset is probably what I'm looking for. at least part of it
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2014-11-12T08:09:36Z chebert: actually that's really my only question right now. thanks again!
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2014-11-12T08:12:54Z PuercoPop: chebert: also check https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library
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2014-11-12T08:21:48Z chebert: PurecoPop: thanks I'm reading about it now
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2014-11-12T10:05:48Z lavokad: hi, C-c C-l terminates without errors, but then I can't call anything from that loaded file. If I do C-c C-k, then it works
2014-11-12T10:05:54Z lavokad: why C-c C-l doesnt?
2014-11-12T10:06:15Z stassats: because the code is poorly written
2014-11-12T10:06:20Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-12T10:06:40Z stassats: or maybe because the code is invisible, at least i can't see it
2014-11-12T10:06:43Z pjb: There must be some eval-when that miss a :load-toplevel or :execute situation.
2014-11-12T10:07:03Z pjb: misses.
2014-11-12T10:09:30Z lavokad: stassats: it is one simple sum of numbers function
2014-11-12T10:09:43Z lavokad:  
2014-11-12T10:09:43Z lavokad: (defun f ()
2014-11-12T10:09:43Z lavokad:   (+ 2 100 45))
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2014-11-12T10:16:37Z lavokad: weird..
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2014-11-12T10:20:35Z freehck: good day
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2014-11-12T10:29:45Z axion: can someone help me make this work if the inner loop's list is empty - i need to run some-function-1 on x still: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) for y in '(4 5 6) do (some-function-1 x) do (some-function-2 y))
2014-11-12T10:30:04Z pjb: lavokad: type C-h k C-c C-l
2014-11-12T10:30:26Z pjb: The second do is useless.
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2014-11-12T10:30:42Z pjb: axion: there's no "inner" in this sexp
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2014-11-12T10:31:06Z pjb: axion: ie. there's a single loop.
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2014-11-12T10:31:43Z axion: ok, so what if y is empty, the loop stops?
2014-11-12T10:31:48Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-12T10:31:58Z stassats: axion: when either of the lists is empty
2014-11-12T10:32:15Z stassats: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) for y = (pop list) do (some-function-1 x) do (some-function-2 y))
2014-11-12T10:32:17Z axion: is there a way to fix this, without 2 loops? i need to basically ensure that the function calls are interleaved
2014-11-12T10:32:28Z pjb: axion: we don't know what you want yet.
2014-11-12T10:32:57Z pjb: axion: do you want a single loop walking both lists at the same time, or do you want embedded loops walking the second list for each element of the first list, or something else?
2014-11-12T10:33:01Z stassats: (loop for x in '(1 2 3) for list-full = list for y = (pop list) do (some-function-1 x) when list-full do (some-function-2 y))
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2014-11-12T10:33:21Z axion: single...i need to make sure some-function-2 is called after some-function-1 if it is called at all
2014-11-12T10:33:33Z pjb: It's always the same problem: without specifications, any form will do what it does, without any bug.
2014-11-12T10:34:00Z pjb: And what if the second list is empty?
2014-11-12T10:34:12Z axion: then it should just call some-function-1 for each of x
2014-11-12T10:34:42Z pjb: (loop for x in xs do (some-function-1 x) (when ys (some-function-2 (pop ys))))
2014-11-12T10:35:30Z pjb: It would probably easier, if you told us what you want in lisp instead of English.
2014-11-12T10:35:38Z pjb: +be
2014-11-12T10:35:46Z pjb: Of course, then you'd already have it :-)
2014-11-12T10:35:59Z axion: i forgot to mention...oops
2014-11-12T10:36:11Z pjb: I guessed so.
2014-11-12T10:36:12Z axion: some-function-2 is called before some-function-1
2014-11-12T10:36:21Z axion: and if no y list, then only some-function-1
2014-11-12T10:36:24Z pjb: (loop for x in xs do (when ys (some-function-2 (pop ys)))  (some-function-1 x))
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2014-11-12T10:36:38Z pjb: Try to clear up your mind.
2014-11-12T10:36:42Z stassats: it sounded easy on the first attempt
2014-11-12T10:37:00Z pjb: axion: Just write in lisp what you mean.
2014-11-12T10:37:31Z axion: yes i know...learn lisp before you ask such basic questions. trying to get my feet wet again. sorry
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2014-11-12T10:37:34Z stassats: what is that even supposed to mean? axion is asking a question on how to write it
2014-11-12T10:37:40Z stassats: how can he write it without knowing?
2014-11-12T10:37:45Z pjb: :-)
2014-11-12T10:38:05Z stassats: axion: that was an alright question, don't mind pjb
2014-11-12T10:38:43Z axion: let me see if this is what i need. thank you guys
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2014-11-12T10:38:45Z pjb: stassats: it's supposed to mean that it's easier to signify the meaning of a lisp form by giving the lisp form, rather than trying to translate it into English: English is not an algorithmic language.
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2014-11-12T10:40:15Z pjb: Often people mess around trying to translate to a programming language, when it's just easier to express oneself directly in the programming language.
2014-11-12T10:41:05Z stassats: unless you don't know it
2014-11-12T10:41:24Z axion: i do, but i am very rusty. i thought we all shared a second common language here to help with that
2014-11-12T10:42:28Z pjb: You can also use periphrase: write it with do, dolist, tagbody/go, and then see us how to write it with loop.
2014-11-12T10:42:40Z axion: regardless, POP'ing is a nice solution to the problem and fits my use-case. thank you pjb
2014-11-12T10:43:01Z stassats: right, thank pjb
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2014-11-12T11:17:02Z lavokad: parse-integer takes an optional argument junk-allowed
2014-11-12T11:17:32Z lavokad: but it requires a boolean value after it
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2014-11-12T11:18:11Z lavokad: why is so? why isnt suficient with the keyword itself?
2014-11-12T11:19:32Z pjb: lavokad: because this is how keywords work.  (parse-integer "42" :junk-allowed nil) (parse-integer "42" :junk-allowed allowed?) are also possible.
2014-11-12T11:20:09Z pjb: lavokad: there are also &optional arguments, but their order is fixed.
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2014-11-12T11:20:51Z pjb: lavokad: while there are two functions in CL that have both &optional and &key arguments, this is bad practice, because it's easy to forget the &optional argument, and pass a keyword that is eaten as optional.
2014-11-12T11:21:23Z pjb: lavokad: notice that with &rest, you can write such a flag keyword argument for your own functions.
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2014-11-12T11:21:40Z pjb: (defun f (&rest options) (let ((junk-allowed (member :junk-allowed options))) …))
2014-11-12T11:23:50Z H4ns: lavokad: that is how keyword arguments in common lisp work
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2014-11-12T11:24:17Z H4ns: lavokad: they come in key/value pairs, always.
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2014-11-12T14:16:10Z eudoxia: drmeister: are you going to switch clasp repos
2014-11-12T14:16:21Z eudoxia: you'll lose all your github stars, ie important social proof
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2014-11-12T14:20:33Z drmeister: eudoxia: I'm cleaning out old stuff in the repo that is taking a lot of space.
2014-11-12T14:20:58Z drmeister: Don't use clasp on github for a couple of hours.
2014-11-12T14:21:08Z drmeister: I didn't think anyone would notice.
2014-11-12T14:21:08Z eudoxia: if the old repo has, say, build output or something, you can fix that
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2014-11-12T14:21:24Z eudoxia: by forcefully pushing the new, clean repo to the drmeister/clasp repository
2014-11-12T14:21:35Z eudoxia: it overwrites the content and keep the repo, along with its issues, starts, forks, etc.
2014-11-12T14:21:39Z drmeister: Yes - that's what I'm in the middle of doing.
2014-11-12T14:21:56Z eudoxia: hm ok
2014-11-12T14:22:04Z drmeister: I've cleaned out old stuff and I'm trying to figure out when I locally clone the cleaned up repo I'm only getting one branch.
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2014-11-12T14:30:17Z stassats: who cares about github stars
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2014-11-12T14:35:30Z eudoxia: "oh, this project has no stars, probably nobody uses it" -- some guy, probably
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2014-11-12T14:35:49Z stassats: who cares about this guy
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2014-11-12T14:36:15Z eudoxia: caring is nice <3
2014-11-12T14:36:38Z Shinmera: "oh no my stuff has no stars so it surely sucks" -- me
2014-11-12T14:36:48Z alpha-: pretty much
2014-11-12T14:36:50Z alpha-: ;)
2014-11-12T14:37:09Z stassats: and no stripes either
2014-11-12T14:37:18Z drmeister: No stars on thars
2014-11-12T14:37:21Z Shinmera: Low ranking software.
2014-11-12T14:37:35Z Grue`: you can star your own repo
2014-11-12T14:37:46Z Grue`: so no reason to have 0 stars really
2014-11-12T14:37:48Z eudoxia: that's the saddest thing in the world, probably
2014-11-12T14:38:00Z drmeister: eudoxia: I'm just feeling things out. I haven't done anything destructive yet.
2014-11-12T14:38:01Z Shinmera: There's plenty of sadder things, but it's up there.
2014-11-12T14:38:19Z eudoxia: drmeister: ok
2014-11-12T14:38:32Z splittist: exclusive, artisanal software, not that popular dreck the sheeple fall for...
2014-11-12T14:38:53Z dlowe: Clearly, only people of low status would care about the expressed opinions or respect from others.
2014-11-12T14:39:09Z dlowe: We must make sure these serfs don't infect our beloved ivory tower.
2014-11-12T14:39:25Z drmeister: Right now I have a cleaned up clasp repo and the original that I renamed.
2014-11-12T14:39:29Z Shinmera: I wish I didn't care, tbh
2014-11-12T14:39:51Z dlowe: People who don't care are termed "sociopaths"
2014-11-12T14:39:55Z fe[nl]ix: dlowe: thou speaketh well, sire
2014-11-12T14:39:56Z dlowe: so don't be too hard on yourself.
2014-11-12T14:40:06Z dlowe: fe[nl]ix: verily.
2014-11-12T14:40:40Z Shinmera: dlowe: Idk, in my case I find that it just puts additional stress on me without actually helping in any case whatsoever, so not caring would be beneficial.
2014-11-12T14:40:44Z Grue`: starring your own repo is useful when you have a bunch of random forks and would rather have your own repos higher in "Popular repositories" section of your profile
2014-11-12T14:41:12Z drmeister: Now I realize that all the issues are with the original. I'll check out the new one and then later push everything into the original and rename it back
2014-11-12T14:41:18Z eudoxia: Shinmera: post radiance on HN, rake in the stars
2014-11-12T14:41:24Z Shinmera: eudoxia: no
2014-11-12T14:41:33Z eudoxia: Shinmera: parasol?
2014-11-12T14:41:44Z Shinmera: eudoxia: in a few years maybe, but probably even then no
2014-11-12T14:42:00Z Grue`: my show hn got upvoted 0 times and 18 users even clicked on it, it's a goddamn lottery
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2014-11-12T14:43:17Z eudoxia: i suspect Show HN's tend to get less visits
2014-11-12T14:43:25Z eudoxia: i just post my projects as regular posts
2014-11-12T14:43:37Z eudoxia: (i don't have a single fact to back that up btw)
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2014-11-12T14:44:36Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: most of your projects are just fine without stars. There wouldn't be any difference if a few bits had different values in GitHub's database.
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2014-11-12T14:45:04Z Shinmera: hitecnologys: That's what I'm saying. I wish I didn't care about it, but I catch myself caring every now and again.
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2014-11-12T14:45:47Z eudoxia: it's ok to care, it's what normal people would do
2014-11-12T14:45:50Z hitecnologys: Shinmera: the key to not caring is not receiving any of that care thing so that, eventually, you end up getting used to it.
2014-11-12T14:45:50Z H4ns: has this channel become a github addict support group or something?
2014-11-12T14:46:12Z hitecnologys: H4ns: sorry, shutting up and getting back to work now.
2014-11-12T14:46:48Z H4ns: "i used to just care, but then it got out of hand and i began to schedule my commits so that my github score card would look more beautiful"
2014-11-12T14:47:15Z eudoxia: i thought i was the only one who did that
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2014-11-12T16:26:39Z drmeister: eudoxia: Do you have any recommendations on how to replace code and history of the drmeister/clasp repository without touching the github issues, stars etc?
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2014-11-12T16:33:41Z Shinmera: drmeister: You should be able to use git filter and then just force push it that'll replace the history.
2014-11-12T16:33:49Z Shinmera: drmeister: That shouldn't affect the rest that github does.
2014-11-12T16:34:26Z Shinmera: drmeister: Otherwise you can create a separate branch and set that as the new main branch in the repository settings on github.
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2014-11-12T16:41:14Z drmeister: Shinmera: What I want is to wipe out the repository on github and push a new repository with a cleaned up history.
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2014-11-12T16:44:19Z drmeister: I have already cleaned up the history of the repository on a local version.  It took several hours. Now I have this slimmed down, cleaned up version of clasp with a .git directory that is only 89M  The drmeister/clasp repository has a .git directory that is about 570M   I'd like to replace the github repository with my local version.
2014-11-12T16:46:11Z hitecnologys: drmeister: `git push -f <branches>` should suffice, as Shinmera said.
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2014-11-12T16:47:37Z hitecnologys: drmeister: but that's not very good practice for everyday use. You have to have really good reasons for doing that. Everyone, who has already cloned your repository, will probably be confused.
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2014-11-12T16:58:22Z theseb: in a macro like (lambda (x) x) does the x have to be gensym'd?
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2014-11-12T16:58:46Z theseb: should i just gensym EVERY parameter of all lambdas?
2014-11-12T16:59:48Z theseb: One more thing..is this kosher?.....it seems in macro writing sometimes i need to quote comma stuff...e.g. `(foo ',wow) ...that's ok and common right?
2014-11-12T17:00:21Z oGMo: quite
2014-11-12T17:00:27Z theseb: e.g. clearly () needs to be quoted ...'()
2014-11-12T17:00:34Z theseb: oGMo: yes? cool!
2014-11-12T17:00:38Z oGMo: wait til you have `(.. `(foo ,',bar) ...)
2014-11-12T17:00:38Z Grue`: not that common, but it happens
2014-11-12T17:01:11Z oGMo: or 3+ commas which gets fun ;/
2014-11-12T17:01:44Z Grue`: and what do you mean by "macro like (lambda (x) x)" because it's not even a macro
2014-11-12T17:02:41Z ggole: lambda is a macro
2014-11-12T17:02:57Z oGMo: no, lambda is a special form
2014-11-12T17:03:08Z ggole: clhs lambda
2014-11-12T17:03:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
2014-11-12T17:03:16Z Grue`: yes, but (lambda (x) x) is an expression, which evaluates to a function
2014-11-12T17:03:27Z ggole: "Macro LAMBDA"
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2014-11-12T17:04:26Z oGMo: i thought there were semantics which prevented it from actually being implemented as a macro
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2014-11-12T17:05:01Z ggole: It just expands to (function (lambda (x) x)) iirc
2014-11-12T17:05:03Z oGMo: e.g. ((lambda (x) ...) 42)
2014-11-12T17:05:12Z theseb: Grue`: sorry..i meant...suppose you used define-macro to define my-macro to = that lambda
2014-11-12T17:05:14Z Grue`: if a macro expands to a lambda then some params might need to be gensymmed, but I prefer for the macro to accept a list of the arguments for the functions defined within
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2014-11-12T17:05:53Z ggole: oGMo: try running macro-function on lambda and some other special form (let?)
2014-11-12T17:06:13Z oGMo: ggole: it may behave as such, but try defining a macro which works as above
2014-11-12T17:06:33Z oGMo: i.e., you can pretend lambda is a macro, but you can't pretend a macro is lambda
2014-11-12T17:06:40Z ggole: Right.
2014-11-12T17:06:46Z ggole: It's a bit odd.
2014-11-12T17:07:38Z ggole: My rough understanding is that lambda is a macro, and is additionally special cased in function position.
2014-11-12T17:07:48Z theseb: Grue`: here... http://pastebin.com/syNXJCEf  that's a macro for let
2014-11-12T17:08:29Z Grue`: well, that's not common lisp
2014-11-12T17:08:37Z theseb: Grue`: now we don't need to talk hypotheticals....
2014-11-12T17:09:04Z theseb: Grue`: i'm making my own lisp
2014-11-12T17:09:23Z Grue`: then how do you expect us to answer how your own lisp works
2014-11-12T17:09:24Z theseb: Grue`: assuming i converted it to CL....would pairs and block need to be gensym'd?
2014-11-12T17:09:50Z theseb: Grue`: it is a general question...to ALL lambda params need to be gensym'd? (where lambda is used as in that example?)
2014-11-12T17:09:57Z theseb: s/to ALL/do ALL
2014-11-12T17:10:55Z Grue`: what is the expansion of this macro? if it contains some variables that are not supplied by user, they need to be gensymmed
2014-11-12T17:11:29Z theseb: Grue`: user will do (let (x 1) (+ x 1)) or some such
2014-11-12T17:11:30Z Grue`: not always though, that depends if user's code is injected in their lexical scope
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2014-11-12T17:11:38Z theseb: Grue`: so pairs = (x 1) and block is (+ x 1)
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2014-11-12T17:12:08Z Grue`: but the symbols "pairs" and "block" do not appear in the expansion
2014-11-12T17:12:09Z stassats: that's not a block
2014-11-12T17:12:11Z theseb: Grue`: so is that a no?   i think what you are saying is only local ("intermediate" ?) vars need to be gensym'd?
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2014-11-12T17:12:22Z theseb: Grue`: sorry i don't know the correct lingo
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2014-11-12T17:12:30Z theseb: i'm a physics person trying to talk computer-ese
2014-11-12T17:12:44Z stassats: why are you trying to implement lisp if you don't know it that well?
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2014-11-12T17:13:44Z oleo: anything where there's a chance of improper referencing requires gensym ........
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2014-11-12T17:14:34Z pjb: (defmacro λ (lambda-list &body body)  `(lambda ,lambda-list ,@body)) ; no need for gensym.
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2014-11-12T17:15:27Z Grue`: clearly the solution to gensym is to use greek letters for variables :)
2014-11-12T17:15:42Z pjb: Stop being dumb.
2014-11-12T17:15:45Z theseb: stassats: to learn it!
2014-11-12T17:15:48Z oleo: pjb: is that the hidden gensym version ?
2014-11-12T17:15:49Z oleo: lol
2014-11-12T17:15:55Z stassats:  theseb: that's a poor way to do that
2014-11-12T17:16:09Z stassats: you are not implementing it in lisp, so you wouldn't know how to actually write programs in lisp
2014-11-12T17:16:15Z theseb: stassats: i define block as 1 or more sexps
2014-11-12T17:16:31Z pjb: theseb: so do you have an specific question?
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2014-11-12T17:21:01Z theseb: pjb: yes...trying to understand when gensym needed....if i understand correctly...you need it when you have local/intermediate vars that don't inherit values of arguments
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2014-11-12T17:21:27Z theseb: but if a parameter will be set to value of user supplied argument value then it is "safe"
2014-11-12T17:21:36Z theseb: pjb: is that right?
2014-11-12T17:22:08Z theseb: pjb: yes..to use your example....body is set to user supplied value so safe!
2014-11-12T17:22:14Z stassats: that's a very basic concept when writing macros
2014-11-12T17:22:17Z stassats: just read http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html
2014-11-12T17:22:41Z stassats: or read the whole book, instead of asking #lisp all the time
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2014-11-12T17:22:45Z theseb: pjb, stassats: hey! i just thought of a brainless way to tell if something needs to be gensym'd!.....if it has a comma in front then safe!
2014-11-12T17:22:54Z stassats: no
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2014-11-12T17:25:02Z theseb: stassats: aw crap..i really thought i nailed it
2014-11-12T17:25:07Z Grue`: gensymmed vars have comma in front of them all the time
2014-11-12T17:25:26Z stassats: theseb: you need to understand things
2014-11-12T17:26:01Z theseb: stassats: wait..the REASON you comma something is because it will be eval'd and pull the value from the environment
2014-11-12T17:26:13Z theseb: stassats: which USUALLY is the user supplied vals yes?
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2014-11-12T17:26:25Z theseb: stassats: *usually* ?
2014-11-12T17:26:28Z theseb: *often* ?
2014-11-12T17:27:14Z theseb: stassats: btw....you have to admit...writing your own lisp is a pretty solid way to go from moron to "right on" fast no?
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2014-11-12T17:27:25Z theseb: it just sounds cool
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2014-11-12T17:27:27Z Grue`: backtick/comma is just a convenience feature, it doesn't really eval anything
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2014-11-12T17:27:58Z theseb: Grue`: yea..it just says to not put a quote in front
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2014-11-12T17:28:07Z theseb: which effectively causes an eval
2014-11-12T17:28:19Z stassats: macros and backquotes are orthogonal
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2014-11-12T17:28:34Z stassats: you need to think about the input and the ouput of a macro
2014-11-12T17:28:40Z stassats: not how it's implemented
2014-11-12T17:28:54Z stassats: theseb: not, writing your own lisp is a bad way
2014-11-12T17:29:12Z drmeister: hitechnologies: I don't plan to do this everyday.  Just this one time while I have fewer users to confuse.  When I first created the clasp repository I had all of the external libraries embedded within the repository.  I have subsequently taken them out.  But they were still in the history.
2014-11-12T17:29:26Z stassats: especially when it's not written in lisp
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2014-11-12T17:29:33Z drmeister: Yesterday I did a bit cleanup that filtered out all of those external libraries and useless files from the history.
2014-11-12T17:29:42Z stassats: theseb: and the amount of simple questions you generate confirms that
2014-11-12T17:29:49Z pjb: theseb: you need gensym when you are binding things for your macro in the environment of the expanded form.
2014-11-12T17:29:51Z drmeister: *big cleanup
2014-11-12T17:30:08Z pjb: theseb: you need them to avoid shadowing a thing with the name you would use otherwise.
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2014-11-12T17:31:04Z Grue`: writing your own lisp is a good way to write, and learn, a bad lisp
2014-11-12T17:31:13Z pjb: stassats: Well, learning Common Lisp by writting a lisp or by writing a CD database is the same for me.
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2014-11-12T17:32:58Z theseb: stassats: is it ok if i ask some simple questions? i like talking about lisp....i'll even donate some bitcoins to folks in here to show my appreciation if I must
2014-11-12T17:33:20Z stassats: it is ok, but it demonstrates the inefficiency of your method
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2014-11-12T17:33:43Z theseb: pjb: your answer is probably excellent but I don't understand your wording
2014-11-12T17:33:45Z pjb: theseb: also if you want to discuss non Common Lisp lisp you may want to try ##lisp or #lispcafe instead.
2014-11-12T17:34:16Z theseb: pjb: "binding" ? "expanded form" ? "shadowing" ? i mean i can *guess* what they mean but it will take a while to process your genius for me
2014-11-12T17:34:17Z pjb: theseb: that's the problem: you would have to learn writing macros in Common Lisp.  For that, read most any tutorial or book about Common Lisp.
2014-11-12T17:34:31Z theseb: i'm from a different culture
2014-11-12T17:34:45Z pjb: What culture?
2014-11-12T17:34:50Z Grue`: do they not read books in that culture? ;)
2014-11-12T17:34:55Z theseb: pjb: i'm a physics teacher
2014-11-12T17:35:05Z theseb: pjb: on #physics i smoke
2014-11-12T17:35:06Z pjb: Good.
2014-11-12T17:35:11Z theseb: in here i'm a goober
2014-11-12T17:35:16Z pjb: I like physics teachers :-)
2014-11-12T17:35:24Z stassats: theseb: that doesn't excuse you
2014-11-12T17:35:55Z pjb: theseb: my wording is general because you may need gensyms to name different kinds of things.
2014-11-12T17:36:08Z pjb: theseb: but let's take the case of simple variables, bound with LET.
2014-11-12T17:36:26Z pjb: theseb: what would be the result of evaluating: (let ((x 42)) (let ((x 33)) x)) ?
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2014-11-12T17:38:55Z theseb: pjb: just a sec..thinking
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2014-11-12T17:39:06Z theseb: pjb: 33
2014-11-12T17:39:09Z pjb: Right.
2014-11-12T17:39:12Z theseb: pjb: the outer x is shadowed
2014-11-12T17:39:18Z pjb: Exactly.
2014-11-12T17:39:57Z pjb: So if you define a macro that needs to bind a variable, and if you want to use it in a form where X is already defined, then you should not use X for your variable name.
2014-11-12T17:40:16Z theseb: right
2014-11-12T17:40:17Z pjb: And it's the same for all the symbols, since any symbol can be used for a variable name.
2014-11-12T17:40:21Z pjb: (almost).
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2014-11-12T17:41:13Z pjb: So if your macro should expand to a form containing (let (({var} …)) …) then {var} should be a symbol created by the macro so that it doesn't shadow a symbol from the user program.
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2014-11-12T17:41:44Z pjb: So your macro will return something like: `(let ((,vname  ,expression)) ,@body)
2014-11-12T17:42:17Z pjb: where vname will be your gensym symbol (you could also use make-symbol).
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2014-11-12T17:43:07Z stassats: please, don't use make-symbol
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2014-11-12T17:47:33Z pjb: theseb: therefore here is an example: http://paste.lisp.org/+33DS
2014-11-12T17:48:00Z theseb: pjb: this is like learning a foreign lang..it will just take some time to soak in i think
2014-11-12T17:48:44Z theseb: pjb: ok...yes good example
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2014-11-12T17:48:50Z pjb: theseb: a nice tutorial for macro writing: Casting Spels in Lisp  Conrad Barski, M.D.  http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html
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2014-11-12T17:49:08Z theseb: pjb: vcounter, vlimit and vstart-label are vars that were NOT passed in so i'm not surprised they weren't gensym'd
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2014-11-12T17:49:44Z pjb: their value is used in the result of the macro (the expansion), but not themselves.
2014-11-12T17:49:46Z theseb: pjb: it would be silly and unnecessary to gensym your var and times variables right? that was my (possibly dumb) question
2014-11-12T17:49:50Z pjb: their values are gensyms.
2014-11-12T17:50:08Z pjb: var and times are parameter of the macro.
2014-11-12T17:50:10Z theseb: because var and times and params with vals passed in
2014-11-12T17:50:18Z theseb: pjb: yes! so params do NOT get gensym'd?
2014-11-12T17:50:28Z pjb: var holds the symbol naming the variables that should contain the counter in the scope where the body is evaluated.
2014-11-12T17:50:48Z pjb: times is bound to an expressions that is evaluated once to know the number of times the loop must iterate.
2014-11-12T17:50:55Z stassats: theseb: it doesn't matter where the symbols comes from
2014-11-12T17:51:08Z stassats: it depends on whether you want to introduce into around the body or not
2014-11-12T17:51:18Z pjb: theseb: depends on what you mean.  I explicitely created the vlimit gensym to contain the result of the evaluation of the expresison bounds to times.
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2014-11-12T17:53:37Z pjb: theseb: when dealing with macros, you have to be conscious of what is evaluated when the macro function is evaluated (at macro expansion time), and the result of that macro, the form what will be evaluated at run-time.
2014-11-12T17:54:38Z pjb: var and times are parameters that are bound at macroexpansion time, that are bound to sexps that are used to build the result form that will be evaluated at run-time.
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2014-11-12T17:55:38Z pjb: similarly for the vcounter, vlimit and vstart-label variables: they are macro-expansion time variables of the macro function, and they are bound to gensym'ed symbols that are used in the resulting form, where they are used as tag label or as variable names (at run-time).
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2014-11-12T17:57:45Z freehck: People, if I want to change value for the symbol defined via (defvar ...) or (defparameter ...) only for a part of code, shall I still use (let ...)?
2014-11-12T17:57:56Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-12T17:58:10Z freehck: In Racket there was (with-patameters ...) for these purposes.
2014-11-12T17:58:11Z pjb: That is, if you want to change it temporarily.
2014-11-12T17:58:17Z freehck: pjb: thank you
2014-11-12T17:58:34Z pjb: freehck: dynamic = time, lexical = space.
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2014-11-12T17:58:53Z freehck: pjb: what?
2014-11-12T17:59:16Z freehck: pjb: what do you mean when say time and space?
2014-11-12T17:59:24Z pjb: freehck: the point is that  (defvar *x* 0) (defun f () (print *x*)) (let ((*x* 42)) (f)) will print 42.  *x* is bound to 42 in the third form, but WHEN you call F, it is still bound to 42.
2014-11-12T17:59:42Z stassats: freehck: in CL, special and lexical variables look the same
2014-11-12T17:59:49Z hitecnologys: drmeister: didn't notice, sorry. Everybody misspells my nickname. It's not a typo, it was an abbreviation of sorts meaning of which I forgot.
2014-11-12T17:59:53Z pjb: there are two spaces: the body of F and the body of the LET form, where *x* is accessed.
2014-11-12T18:00:02Z stassats: freehck: everything that work on lexical variables will work on special as well
2014-11-12T18:00:15Z pjb: but differently.
2014-11-12T18:00:36Z pjb:  everything that work on lexical variables will work on dynamic variable as well, but specially.
2014-11-12T18:00:59Z hitecnologys: drmeister: should be fine then, as long as you make everyone re-clone (from what I know, this is the easiest way) the repository in order to avoid unnecessary mess.
2014-11-12T18:01:15Z stassats: hitecnologys: savages without auto completion
2014-11-12T18:01:29Z freehck: pjb: thank you one more time - I perfectly understand what dynamic scope is.
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2014-11-12T18:02:20Z hitecnologys: stassats: yes, that plays part in this process too.
2014-11-12T18:04:21Z freehck: btw, is there something like (with-output-to-file BODY)?
2014-11-12T18:05:36Z freehck: oh, have found with-open-file
2014-11-12T18:06:40Z stassats: minion: clqr?
2014-11-12T18:06:40Z minion: clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/
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2014-11-12T18:07:37Z freehck: stassats: link doesn't work btw
2014-11-12T18:08:18Z freehck: stassats: but slime can look for hyperspec, and I can look in slime source for these purposes.
2014-11-12T18:08:18Z hitecnologys: Indeed.
2014-11-12T18:08:22Z freehck: almost the same
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2014-11-12T18:08:36Z stassats: when you know what to look for
2014-11-12T18:09:03Z stassats: minion: clqr?
2014-11-12T18:09:03Z minion: clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is a booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.boundp.org/
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2014-11-12T18:09:19Z freehck: stassats: it works!
2014-11-12T18:10:02Z Grue`: usually you can just press C-h m to see all SLIME keybindings
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2014-11-12T18:11:06Z freehck: Grue`: I spoke about the dictionary.
2014-11-12T18:11:13Z freehck: slime
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2014-11-12T18:17:57Z freehck: Grue`: sorry, the dictionary is not in slime.el, it's in hyperspec.el...
2014-11-12T18:18:11Z freehck: Grue`: the variable common-lisp-hyperspec--symbols consists the full contents.
2014-11-12T18:19:06Z freehck: *contains (sorry by english)
2014-11-12T18:19:29Z stassats: hyperspec.el provides not only symbols
2014-11-12T18:19:57Z freehck: stassats: I use only search function from there.
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2014-11-12T18:20:19Z freehck: Have bound it to C-F1 to find symbols in hyperspec.
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2014-11-12T18:20:37Z Grue`: use (apropos "foo")
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2014-11-12T18:20:50Z Grue`: or (apropos "foo" :cl)
2014-11-12T18:21:02Z nyef: Hello all.
2014-11-12T18:21:19Z freehck: Grue`: not bad!
2014-11-12T18:21:23Z freehck: nyef: hi
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2014-11-12T18:43:01Z sheilong: Primitive procedures are those defined by the system ?
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2014-11-12T18:47:36Z stassats`: sheilong: there's no such term
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2014-11-12T18:55:58Z stassats: sheilong: but primitive usually suggests something that can't be implemented by other means
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2014-11-12T19:05:45Z White_Flame: sheilong: there are various ways of implementing a Lisp (or even Common Lisp in particular) regarding which primitives you build from.  The notion of "primitive procedure" isn't really brought up in the spec afaik
2014-11-12T19:06:26Z White_Flame: ie, you could have cons/cdr/car as primivite, and implement lambdas using them; or have lambda as primitive and implement cons/car/cdr using lambdas
2014-11-12T19:06:31Z White_Flame: s/ie/eg/ :-P
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2014-11-12T19:07:23Z pjb: Specifically, the CL standard distinguishes macros from special operators, but allows implementation to implement special operators as macros, and macros as special operators, and furthermore, allows open-coding of all the CL functions.
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2014-11-12T19:07:59Z pjb: Which means that any operator in the CL package could be a primitive for a specific implementation.
2014-11-12T19:08:16Z pjb: For example, in the case of SICL, it's LOOP that is primitive :-)
2014-11-12T19:09:03Z sheilong: primitive procedures wouldn't be + - * /, define ?
2014-11-12T19:09:23Z pjb: (defmacro if (test then &optional else) (let ((name (gensym))) `(loop :named ,name :if ,test :do (return-from ,name ,then) :else :do (return-from ,name ,else))))
2014-11-12T19:09:28Z pjb: sheilong: not necessarily.
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2014-11-12T19:09:31Z sheilong: I defined abs x and when I type a negative value on interpreter it returns a positive one
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2014-11-12T19:09:33Z pjb: defun is a macro.
2014-11-12T19:09:35Z sheilong: https://bpaste.net/show/daf4928de55c
2014-11-12T19:09:43Z guaqua`: sheilong: do you want to know about common lisp or lisps in general?
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2014-11-12T19:10:06Z theseb: guaqua: common lisps?
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2014-11-12T19:10:14Z theseb: guaqua: is there more than 1?
2014-11-12T19:10:21Z theseb: oh you mean implementations..ok gotcha
2014-11-12T19:10:53Z pjb: sheilong: your abs is not conforming to CL:ABS.
2014-11-12T19:10:54Z guaqua: no, common lisp or as in all lisps (scheme, clojure, racket, ...)
2014-11-12T19:10:59Z pjb: clhs abs
2014-11-12T19:11:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_abs.htm
2014-11-12T19:11:00Z pjb: "If number is a real, the result is of the same type as number."
2014-11-12T19:11:52Z sheilong: I did as is on sicp
2014-11-12T19:11:55Z pjb: sheilong: (if (minusp x) (- x) x)
2014-11-12T19:12:34Z guaqua: theseb: basically i was trying to get to "are we trying to interpret common lisp standard" or "are we talking about lisps and building languages from primitive forms"
2014-11-12T19:12:48Z theseb: ah
2014-11-12T19:13:11Z theseb: guaqua: fwiw..i think trying to find minimum set of primitives needed to build a good part of lisp is an interesting question
2014-11-12T19:13:31Z theseb: guaqua: i think lots of stuff can be implemented as macros i wouldn't have guessed..fascinating stuff
2014-11-12T19:13:45Z stassats`: implement me OPEN with a macro
2014-11-12T19:13:56Z theseb: lol
2014-11-12T19:13:58Z sheilong: pjb:  why not ?
2014-11-12T19:14:06Z theseb: i/o is another matter
2014-11-12T19:14:07Z pjb: read above.
2014-11-12T19:14:16Z stassats`: theseb: ok, get-universal-time
2014-11-12T19:14:34Z Bike: sheilong: he's saying that you can put in, e.g., a floating point zero, and an integer zero will come out, but the clhs says the result has to be the same type.
2014-11-12T19:14:57Z guaqua: theseb: definitely. it's a fascinating subject in itself. but quite different from the language lawyering that is common on this channel :)
2014-11-12T19:15:02Z theseb: stassats`: your thinking practical...i'm thinking computability theory
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2014-11-12T19:15:32Z Bike: in computability theory it's just lambda. or enough arithmetic to do diophantine equations, i guess.
2014-11-12T19:15:40Z guaqua: although the language lawyer lispniks mostly also appreciate the fascinating parts of lisp
2014-11-12T19:15:41Z theseb: stassats`: Alonzo Church and Alan Turing wouldn't give a rat's butt that you couldn't implement get-universal-time in TM and lambda cal. :)
2014-11-12T19:15:57Z Grue`: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus
2014-11-12T19:16:09Z pjb: theseb: finding a minimum set of primitives needed to build lisp is a dumb question. Anything goes. You can do it with only LAMBDA!
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2014-11-12T19:16:17Z Bike: i'm pretty sure turing would have understood the importance of timing, given his wartime work
2014-11-12T19:16:20Z pjb: theseb: as soon as you have a turing machine, you can do it.
2014-11-12T19:16:31Z White_Flame: or you could go low-level and just have some basic raw memory access primitives and build up from there
2014-11-12T19:16:38Z White_Flame: pbj: right
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2014-11-12T19:16:55Z pjb: theseb: you can implement get-universal-time in TM and lambda calculus.
2014-11-12T19:16:58Z stassats`: raw memory access? what can you do with it?
2014-11-12T19:17:16Z guaqua: pjb: there's beauty in many forms. i'm thinking more art, not as much science
2014-11-12T19:17:19Z pjb: theseb:  only, it's a time proper to the machine.
2014-11-12T19:17:35Z Bike: with raw memory access you hit page faults and then get your program running in the fault handler like that weird esoteric thing
2014-11-12T19:17:38Z Bike: bam, complete
2014-11-12T19:18:06Z pjb: theseb:  anyways, if you want to implement I/O in TM or lambda-calculus, you will have to implement part of the universe too :-)
2014-11-12T19:18:07Z theseb: pjb: there is unfortunately an ambiguity when talking about "minimum set of primitives"
2014-11-12T19:18:36Z Bike: that ambiguity is basically the entire concept of turing emulation. 's old.
2014-11-12T19:18:40Z theseb: pjb: e.g......some will say a number is a primitive and then another will say..."you can implement numbers with just sets of nil!!!"
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2014-11-12T19:19:01Z White_Flame: theseb: and that's the fun of Lisp
2014-11-12T19:19:03Z pjb:  therefore there is no ambiguity: numbers are not primitive.
2014-11-12T19:19:05Z White_Flame: at least, for implementors
2014-11-12T19:19:06Z theseb: pjb: so i need to apparently specify the level of primitiveness i'm referring to
2014-11-12T19:19:24Z pjb: of course, it's not an absolute concept!
2014-11-12T19:19:33Z Bike: might as well ask about angels on pins
2014-11-12T19:19:34Z stassats`: this is all just mental masturbation
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2014-11-12T19:20:06Z pjb: Perhaps we should ban anybody mentionning the word primitive?
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2014-11-12T19:20:50Z White_Flame: bah, your code is really primitive
2014-11-12T19:20:59Z White_Flame has been banned for mentioning the word 'primitive'
2014-11-12T19:21:08Z stassats`: finally
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2014-11-12T19:26:21Z shka: i should learn more about lisp implementation
2014-11-12T19:26:30Z shka: and finally start lisp in small pieces
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2014-11-12T20:10:52Z bobbysmith007: what is #0a0 or #0a1234 - it seems to be a zero dimentional non sequential array with content 12345 that cannot be accessed.  Is this some quirk, or is there a valid reason for this object?
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2014-11-12T20:11:36Z stassats`: what do you mean, cannot be accessed?
2014-11-12T20:11:43Z stassats`: (aref #0a1234) => 1234
2014-11-12T20:11:54Z bobbysmith007: ahh, I guess my problem was trying to pass it an index
2014-11-12T20:12:03Z bobbysmith007: which it clearly doesnt support, not being a sequence
2014-11-12T20:12:11Z stassats`: it has no dimensions, how can it have an index
2014-11-12T20:12:22Z stassats`: it's a dot
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2014-11-12T20:13:21Z bobbysmith007: a dot in the sense that it is a single value masquerading as an array?
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2014-11-12T20:14:00Z drewc: it is an array of rank 0
2014-11-12T20:14:26Z stassats`: bobbysmith007: sorry, point
2014-11-12T20:15:11Z drewc: bobbysmith007: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/15_aac.htm
2014-11-12T20:15:42Z bobbysmith007: drewc: thanks, reading that now... anyway, I will update my type annotation to avoid looking at / looping over these guys
2014-11-12T20:17:00Z stassats`: what do you mean?
2014-11-12T20:17:11Z Grue`: i didn't even consider the possibility of 0-dimensional arrays, I guess empty product is 1, so it does make sense
2014-11-12T20:17:59Z bobbysmith007: I had never run across one, till today, where I suddently had an error in long debugged code where it was expecting that arrays are mappable (which they are not in general)
2014-11-12T20:18:19Z stassats`: they are in general
2014-11-12T20:18:35Z bobbysmith007: well type 'array is not always passable to map is more what I mean
2014-11-12T20:18:56Z stassats`: (row-major-aref #0a1234 0) => 1234 (row-major-aref #2a((1234)) 0) => 1234
2014-11-12T20:18:59Z bobbysmith007: and since I meant type '(array t 1) anyway, that will be a better typecase
2014-11-12T20:19:29Z stassats`: you mean (vector t)?
2014-11-12T20:19:57Z stassats`: i hope you do know that T represents one specific type of arrays?
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2014-11-12T20:20:40Z bobbysmith007: Nope, just researching array type names now... I have always gotten away with array for the most part
2014-11-12T20:20:44Z drewc: Most of the time, I map (well LOOP ACROSS) vectors as that makes sense. looping across a 0 rank array does not, hence is not allowed.
2014-11-12T20:21:01Z stassats`: bobbysmith007: you probably want VECTOR
2014-11-12T20:21:18Z bobbysmith007: ok, thanks much
2014-11-12T20:21:39Z stassats`: which is the same as (array * (*))
2014-11-12T20:21:54Z stassats`: also the same as (vector *)
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2014-11-12T20:22:03Z stassats`: but (vector t) is a specialized vector
2014-11-12T20:22:24Z stassats`: and * can be omitted, so (vector *) => (vector) => vector
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2014-11-12T20:22:43Z bobbysmith007: stassats`: appreciate, that clears things up a bit
2014-11-12T20:23:05Z stassats`: (vector t) is a vector that can hold anything, but only anything
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2014-11-12T20:23:29Z bobbysmith007: ie: not null?
2014-11-12T20:23:40Z stassats`: no, really anything
2014-11-12T20:24:00Z stassats`: (vector fixnum) can only hold fixnums, not anything, (vector t) doesn't describe that vector
2014-11-12T20:24:22Z stassats`: (vector *) describes a vector of arbitrary specialization
2014-11-12T20:25:51Z bobbysmith007: ok, I got it now, the spec adds: (vector *) refers to all vectors regardless of element type, (vector type-specifier) refers only to those vectors that can result from giving type-specifier as the :element-type argument tomake-array.
2014-11-12T20:26:11Z stassats`: your space is weird
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2014-11-12T20:26:58Z stassats`: (some of the spaces in your message are of no-break kind)
2014-11-12T20:27:34Z stassats`: bobbysmith007: portably speaking, yes
2014-11-12T20:27:54Z stassats`: it can refer to other arguments to element-type, since some are upgraded to the same thing
2014-11-12T20:28:09Z stassats`: but if you create an array with the same type and declared using the same type, you're set
2014-11-12T20:28:41Z stassats`: otherwise, (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 3)) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4) (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4)) => (UNSIGNED-BYTE 4)
2014-11-12T20:29:22Z stassats`: so, (vector (unsigned-byte 3)) will actually type check a ub4 vector as well
2014-11-12T20:29:51Z stassats`: although there are some weird corners regarding upgrading and typechecking
2014-11-12T20:31:08Z bobbysmith007: yeah... array types are bit daunting I appreciate the primer
2014-11-12T20:31:23Z stassats`: because they are upgraded
2014-11-12T20:31:27Z stassats`: the same goes with COMPLEX
2014-11-12T20:31:46Z stassats`: (subtypep '(vector fixnum) '(vector t)) => NIL, even though (subtypep 'fixnum t) => T
2014-11-12T20:32:23Z stassats`: and upgrading is implementation dependent
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2014-11-12T20:59:09Z francogrex: the sbcl disassembly output for armel is more obscure than what it actually does: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144355
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2014-11-12T20:59:43Z stassats`: no
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2014-11-12T21:03:20Z francogrex: stassats`:  BYTE #X20, #X0A, #X30, #XEE versus vadd.f32	s0, s0, s1? seriously?
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2014-11-12T21:04:11Z k-stz: which xml library is recommended for just simply reading data from xmls?
2014-11-12T21:04:21Z stassats`: k-stz: cxml
2014-11-12T21:04:36Z stassats`: combining with cxml-stp is good as well
2014-11-12T21:04:55Z stassats`: francogrex: what don't you like about it?
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2014-11-12T21:06:07Z stassats`: that some people made an arm port in their free time and didn't bother to concentrate on minor things like a complete disassembler?
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2014-11-12T21:12:14Z francogrex: i like machine code so not an issue of liking. I know that x /ix 0x5140F3B0 => 0xee300a20 so cool from sbcl, but not intuitive for the naive/making his way
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2014-11-12T21:14:42Z nyef: francogrex: Feel free to put together a patch for the disassembler if you want.
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2014-11-12T21:17:58Z nyef: francogrex: But you can also count yourself lucky that it already works as well as it does. It wasn't the hardest part of the system to get working, but it's more than a bit twisty and getting the output right takes a bit of doing.
2014-11-12T21:19:25Z bobbysmith007: k-stz: I'll also plug for css-selectors (which contains an stp package as well) which works as a query language for cxml  dom / stp
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2014-11-12T21:23:57Z francogrex: nyef: yes it works very well and supports both armel and armhf. I especially like the fact that armel continues to be supported (while many developers have given up on it and focus solely of the armhf).
2014-11-12T21:24:37Z nyef: It should also support big-endian ARM as well, if anyone runs into such a system.
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2014-11-12T21:25:16Z stassats`: do we not assume that it's little endian?
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2014-11-12T21:25:44Z nyef: stassats`: We really shouldn't be. I started with the explicit assumption that we should support both modes.
2014-11-12T21:26:32Z nyef: You'll see the conditionals in several places in the compiler backend, plus ISTR arranging for the detection to happen during make-config.
2014-11-12T21:27:53Z nyef: Do a git grep endian src/compiler/arm and you should see several hits.
2014-11-12T21:28:15Z stassats`: without actually running, i wouldn't be convinced
2014-11-12T21:28:48Z stassats`: are instruction endianness dependent?
2014-11-12T21:28:49Z nyef: I wouldn't be surprised if some of it got broken over time, but I at least went to the trouble of putting the support in there in the first place.
2014-11-12T21:29:44Z nyef: Instructions are fixed-width quantities. IIRC, that's handled by the lower-level parts of the system somehow.
2014-11-12T21:30:18Z nyef: Yeah, have a look at define-bitfield-emitter in assem.lisp.
2014-11-12T21:30:33Z nyef: Right at the bottom of the macro.
2014-11-12T21:31:16Z stassats`: so, what about all the places in the runtime where we are looking at instructions or making instructions?
2014-11-12T21:31:41Z nyef: Word-wide memory access. No endian issues there. (-:
2014-11-12T21:32:08Z stassats`: can't say i follow
2014-11-12T21:32:38Z nyef: Endian issues only happen if you're working with sub-word memory access or in terms of another system's endianness.
2014-11-12T21:32:57Z nyef: If you read a word, you get a word, regardless of if you're on a big or little endian system.
2014-11-12T21:33:10Z stassats`: right, ok
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2014-11-12T21:33:35Z nyef: If you read a byte at the same address as a word, you get either the MSB, the LSB, or one of the middle bytes, depending on if the system is big, little, or mixed endian.
2014-11-12T21:34:17Z nyef: So as long as the runtime operates in terms of words when it's doing instruction hacking, it's "safe".
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2014-11-12T21:36:08Z nyef: And our various tagged trampolines are all implemented using displaced labels and full-word headers, unlike SPARC, so they should be okay as well.
2014-11-12T21:36:36Z stassats`: we should move them into assembly routines
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2014-11-12T21:37:39Z nyef: No argument there, but I haven't bothered extracting and forward-porting the required changes from when I first laid them out.
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2014-11-12T21:40:09Z nyef: Part of the issue is making it so that undefined_tramp is still usable to create fdefns in genesis, or that any un-set fdefns get initialized correctly after the fact.
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2014-11-12T21:41:23Z nyef: To give you a hint as to the timeline for when I worked this out, it was for my SBCL-os hack where I was running a very stripped down SBCL core on bare metal without a runtime or OS kernel.
2014-11-12T21:43:18Z nyef: Early 2k8, it looks like.
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2014-11-12T21:57:56Z stassats`: having sb-dynamic-core working on ARM would really help with things like getting threads
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2014-11-12T22:01:51Z nyef: So would having an additional register. Do you think there's any chance that we can free up reg_CODE if we're willing to pay the heap space search to recover it during GC operations?
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2014-11-12T22:04:41Z nyef: If I have the time soon, or I get fed up with what I'm working on and need a break, I'll see about putting together a build-time option for putting trampolines in read-only space.  It'll have to be an option, though, because otherwise it would drastically affect a couple of platforms that do crazy things with them already and that we can't easily test right now.
2014-11-12T22:05:06Z stassats`: what about just ppc and arm?
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2014-11-12T22:06:43Z nyef: That would count as an "option".
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2014-11-12T22:07:04Z nyef: Hell, I should be able to test SPARC myself in about a week.
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2014-11-12T23:27:08Z Ryan_Burnside: Hello all, has anyone had a chance to try the Allegro library bindings for CL?
2014-11-12T23:27:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: These? http://allegro5.org/ I haven't, but I'd be interested to hear about them.
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2014-11-12T23:29:45Z Ryan_Burnside: I think that may be the same as listed here not sure...
2014-11-12T23:29:46Z Ryan_Burnside: http://alleg.sourceforge.net/bindings.html
2014-11-12T23:30:06Z Ryan_Burnside: I just never really got along with SDL myself.
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