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2014-11-11T02:50:01Z drmeister: Does anyone online know the ins and outs of ASDFs COMPILE-FILE* ?  For some reason it's generating the fasl file package-TMP.bundle   rather than package.bundle
2014-11-11T02:51:41Z drmeister: I don't see any code to rename this temporary file.
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2014-11-11T03:07:20Z jasom: Something happened to me for the first time; I had need of a tool unrelated to programming, and a lisp blog series started covering the creation of a tool in lisp to do what I needed.
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2014-11-11T03:28:18Z pjb: jasom: you're not alone in need.
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2014-11-11T03:51:48Z pillton: jasom: What is the tool?
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2014-11-11T04:50:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-11-11T04:50:37Z ack006: Good morning :-)
2014-11-11T04:50:41Z pillton: Hey beach..
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2014-11-11T04:56:28Z jasom: pillton: Romanization of Japanese text
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2014-11-11T04:57:30Z Zhivago: Kana to Romaji translation is trivial. Kanji, on the other hand, ...
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2014-11-11T05:04:22Z jasom: Zhivago: this includes Kanji
2014-11-11T05:05:25Z jasom: https://github.com/tshatrov/ichiran
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2014-11-11T05:06:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: Zhivago, Neat, http://ichi.moe/cl/qr/?q=%E3%81%AD%E3%81%93%E3%81%A7%E3%81%99%E3%81%8B%E3%80%82&r=htr What do you use for the website?
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2014-11-11T05:08:53Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: details here: http://readevalprint.tumblr.com/post/101841449553/its-alive-the-path-from-library-to-web-app
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2014-11-11T05:12:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks, I'll tkae a look.
2014-11-11T05:12:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Also, I see I quoted the wrong person.
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2014-11-11T05:24:44Z Zhivago: That's just tranliterating kana, so it's easy.
2014-11-11T05:24:51Z Zhivago: There's pretty much a 1:1 mapping.
2014-11-11T05:25:06Z Zhivago: The hard part would be segmentation.
2014-11-11T05:25:17Z jasom: Zhivago: http://ichi.moe/cl/qr/?q=%E6%BA%80%E6%9C%88%E3%82%92%E3%81%95%E3%81%8C%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6+%E3%82%AA%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B8%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%BB%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A6%E3%83%B3%E3%83%89%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF&r=htr
2014-11-11T05:25:38Z jasom: not a lot of segmentation there, granted
2014-11-11T05:26:29Z Zhivago: If I were implementing that, I would use a dictionary and then find a viterbi path though a back-off n-gram model.
2014-11-11T05:27:23Z Zhivago: Er, and a large corpus in order to build the model. :)
2014-11-11T05:27:45Z Zhivago: Try it with people's names in Kanji and you can expect a significant increase in error.
2014-11-11T05:28:07Z Zhivago: Some Kanji have 20 or so potential target Kana.
2014-11-11T05:28:08Z jasom: Zhivago: it specifically says it doesn't handle segmentation of names well
2014-11-11T05:29:06Z Zhivago: Well, names shouldn't be segmented, but yes -- that's hard to achieve.
2014-11-11T05:30:05Z Zhivago: You can easily get to 97% + correct using the technique I suggested -- the last 3% is hard.
2014-11-11T05:30:25Z jasom: Zhivago: getting a large corpus is non-trivial too though
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2014-11-11T05:31:06Z Zhivago: Given the internet, it isn't hard to get a useful corpus -- it doesn't need to be enormous.
2014-11-11T05:31:40Z Zhivago: You can back-off to logograph bigrams in most cases.
2014-11-11T05:32:02Z Zhivago: Just scrape a news site.
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2014-11-11T05:56:40Z axion: is there a function in the standard that takes an arbitrary list of functions and executes them all with the same suuplied parameter list?
2014-11-11T05:58:22Z H4ns: axion: no
2014-11-11T05:59:07Z InvalidCo: wouldn't you just (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (apply x args)) funcs)
2014-11-11T05:59:08Z Zhivago: mapcar and friends?
2014-11-11T05:59:30Z InvalidCo: of course, if I had to guess, what you want is composing
2014-11-11T06:00:30Z InvalidCo: alexandria:compose function &rest more-functions
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2014-11-11T06:01:33Z InvalidCo: (funcall (compose #'a #'b #'c) 1 2 3) would be roughly equal to (a (b (c 1 2 3)))
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2014-11-11T06:03:27Z H4ns: the function is trivial to write once it is clear what exactly they're looking for
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2014-11-11T06:05:07Z axion: thanks for the suggestions. just wanted a quick way to call multiple functions in various orders with the same single parameter for testing purposes
2014-11-11T06:07:17Z beach: (loop for fun in list do (funcall fun arg))
2014-11-11T06:07:54Z beach: Trivial, as H4ns said.
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2014-11-11T06:13:19Z beach: axion: Not the answer you were looking for, huh?
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2014-11-11T06:23:02Z axion: thanks :)
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2014-11-11T06:39:47Z axion: anyone familiar with running sdl in a separate thread in order to update the display loop from the repl? i'm getting xcb warnings and being dropped into the debugger whenever i try
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2014-11-11T06:42:35Z |3b|: axion: are you doing anything besides recompiling functions/changing variables while the loop is running?
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2014-11-11T06:43:35Z axion: no...i tried just calling resize-window and sdl:quit-sdl
2014-11-11T06:43:40Z axion: both of which crash sbcl
2014-11-11T06:44:08Z |3b|: don't call sdl functions directly outside of the thread where you created the window
2014-11-11T06:44:48Z axion: how should i call drawing functions?
2014-11-11T06:45:30Z |3b|: main loop should call a function that calls drawing function, you can recompile that function while the loop runs to change what gets drawn
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2014-11-11T06:45:44Z |3b|: you could also call it directly from the loop, but then you can't change it
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2014-11-11T06:46:29Z axion: how can i change the display dimensions on-the-fly? the window gets set up prior to the loop
2014-11-11T06:46:55Z |3b|: if you just want to do things once interactively, you could have the loop check a variable for a function to call, call it, then clear the variable, then from other threads (repl, etc) you could assign a lambda to that var to do things
2014-11-11T06:47:27Z |3b| usually just binds keys to do things like that
2014-11-11T06:48:09Z axion: hmm nice. thank you. yeah i'm just messing around...things seem much clearer now. thank you
2014-11-11T06:48:36Z axion: coming back to sdl after 10 years...and lisp was not what i used :)
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2014-11-11T07:41:10Z lavokad: hi, how does lisp difference empty lisp and nil?
2014-11-11T07:41:25Z jasom: lavokad: they are identical
2014-11-11T07:41:40Z lavokad: jasom: yes, im reading about this
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2014-11-11T07:41:55Z lavokad: but then dont get how do these expressions work:
2014-11-11T07:42:10Z lavokad: (member '() '(1 2 3 '() 4 nil 5))
2014-11-11T07:42:11Z lavokad:  
2014-11-11T07:42:17Z lavokad: returns (nil 5)
2014-11-11T07:42:35Z Bike: because () and nil are eq?
2014-11-11T07:42:52Z ecraven: lavokad: '() in that context is (quote nil) and not nil
2014-11-11T07:42:53Z lavokad: so it should return (nil 4 nil 5)
2014-11-11T07:42:54Z jasom: lavokad: ah, you have a double quoting
2014-11-11T07:43:07Z jasom: (member '() '(1 2 3 (quote nil) 4 nil 5))
2014-11-11T07:43:28Z lavokad: (eq '() nil) => T
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2014-11-11T07:43:55Z ecraven: lavokad: that is different :)
2014-11-11T07:43:59Z jasom: (member 3 '(1 2 '3 4 3)) => (3)
2014-11-11T07:44:04Z Bike: lavokad: (eq ''() nil) => nil
2014-11-11T07:44:22Z lavokad: ok
2014-11-11T07:44:32Z ecraven: lavokad: try entering '(1 '() 2) and '(1 () 2) at the repl, see how they print
2014-11-11T07:45:15Z lavokad: thanks
2014-11-11T07:45:21Z lavokad: no one more question
2014-11-11T07:47:25Z lavokad: why doesnt (member nil '(6 5 2)) return '() ?
2014-11-11T07:47:33Z lavokad: lists end with empty list
2014-11-11T07:47:51Z Bike: because the () is a cdr, not a car, and member only looks at cars
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2014-11-11T07:49:05Z jasom: It should return nil because it returns nil if the item is not in the list
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2014-11-11T07:51:14Z pjb: lavokad: an empty list is nil, not (quote nil)!
2014-11-11T07:51:31Z pjb: therefore (member nil '(6 5 2)) --> nil, not (quote nil).
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2014-11-11T07:52:10Z ecraven: I don't think there's a way to have member return '()
2014-11-11T07:52:12Z pjb: lavokad: you may also ponder on the difference between the result of evaluating PI and 'PI.
2014-11-11T07:52:13Z lavokad: (eq 'nil nil) (eq '() ())
2014-11-11T07:52:21Z lavokad: ..etc
2014-11-11T07:52:31Z lavokad: all of them are the same object
2014-11-11T07:52:36Z Bike: that's because nil evaluates to nil
2014-11-11T07:52:39Z Bike: as does 'nil
2014-11-11T07:52:41Z Bike: but ''nil does not
2014-11-11T07:52:43Z ecraven: lavokad: no, they are not in general
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2014-11-11T07:53:35Z jasom: clhs '
2014-11-11T07:53:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dc.htm
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2014-11-11T07:54:10Z pjb: ecraven: of course: (member 'quote '(a b . (quote nil)) :test 'equal) --> 'nil
2014-11-11T07:54:10Z jasom: 'nil is the same as nil because nil is a self-evaluating object
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2014-11-11T07:54:34Z ecraven: pjb: ah, obviously, using improper lists
2014-11-11T07:54:36Z pjb: jasom: no. 'nil IS NOT THE SAME as NIL, because 'NIL IS a LIST, while NIL is a SYMBOL!
2014-11-11T07:54:39Z ecraven: pjb: too early :)
2014-11-11T07:54:55Z pjb: jasom: (typeof ''nil) vs. (typeof 'nil)
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2014-11-11T07:55:23Z jasom: sorry 'nil evaluates to the same thing as nil because nil is self evaluating
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2014-11-11T07:55:34Z pjb: jasom: right.
2014-11-11T07:55:50Z pjb: The lesson is: there's a difference between EVALUATES TO and IS.
2014-11-11T07:55:51Z jasom: and they are technically both lists
2014-11-11T07:56:08Z pjb: jasom: you're right, I should have said a CONS :-)
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2014-11-11T07:56:33Z jasom: nil is an empty list 'nil is a 2 element list; they both evaluate to nil
2014-11-11T07:56:49Z pjb: Yes.
2014-11-11T07:57:07Z lavokad: 'nil is a 2 element list?
2014-11-11T07:57:20Z pjb: Yes, try: (first ''nil) (second ''nil)
2014-11-11T07:57:20Z lavokad: i got totally lost
2014-11-11T07:57:22Z lavokad: :)
2014-11-11T07:57:45Z jasom: lavokad: 'FOO is just syntactic sugar for (quote FOO)
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2014-11-11T07:57:54Z jasom: obviously (quote FOO) is a 2 element list
2014-11-11T07:57:55Z lavokad: oh right
2014-11-11T07:57:56Z lavokad: ok
2014-11-11T07:58:01Z pjb: lavokad: try: (read) RET 'foo RET
2014-11-11T07:58:30Z jasom: pjb: sbcl's reader doesn't print it as a list though, it re-sugars to 'foo
2014-11-11T07:58:30Z pjb: or: (let ((sexp (read))) (print (first sexp)) (print (second sexp))) RET 'foo RET
2014-11-11T07:58:35Z jasom: s/reader/printer
2014-11-11T07:59:03Z pjb: jasom: notice it's implementation dependant, and it may depend on the various *print-…* variable.
2014-11-11T08:00:01Z lavokad: then again, could once more explain why does (eq (quote nil) nil) evaluate to the same thing?
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2014-11-11T08:00:07Z lavokad: nil evaluates to itself
2014-11-11T08:00:17Z Bike: because (quote nil) evaluates to nil, even though it is not nil.
2014-11-11T08:00:23Z pjb: Somewhere in a CL implementation, there's something like: (defconstant nil 'nil)
2014-11-11T08:00:24Z Bike: evaluation happens before eq is called.
2014-11-11T08:00:30Z pjb: and (defconstant t 't)
2014-11-11T08:00:58Z jasom: lavokad: (let ((a 'a)) (eq 'a a)) => T
2014-11-11T08:01:00Z Bike: maybe it would help if you did your own (defconstant +foo+ '+foo+) and fucked w/it
2014-11-11T08:01:03Z pjb: therefore nil -> nil and t -> t, but a -> 42 (for example).
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2014-11-11T08:02:54Z lavokad: <jasom> lavokad: (let ((a 'a)) (eq 'a a)) => T ;; nice!
2014-11-11T08:02:55Z lavokad: thanks
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2014-11-11T09:37:22Z lavokad`: A symbol consists of one memory cell for each of its components: the print name, the value, the function binding, and the property list
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2014-11-11T09:37:43Z beach: Maybe.
2014-11-11T09:37:54Z lavokad:  Each cell is large enough to hold the address of any Lisp object; this stored address is called a pointer
2014-11-11T09:38:17Z beach: Don't forget the package of the symbol.
2014-11-11T09:38:42Z lavokad: then when compared two symbols
2014-11-11T09:38:54Z lavokad`: (eq 'a 'a)
2014-11-11T09:39:10Z lavokad: which cell's pointer is being compared?
2014-11-11T09:39:15Z beach: The reader makes sure that they are identical, so the comparison is one instruction.
2014-11-11T09:39:16Z lavokad: only the name's?
2014-11-11T09:39:22Z beach: No.
2014-11-11T09:40:11Z beach: Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics".  An object is really a reference (pointer) to some area in memory.  Only the pointers are compared with EQ.
2014-11-11T09:40:14Z ecraven: lavokad: eq should compare the *symbol's* address, not any component
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2014-11-11T09:43:36Z beach thinks lavokad got overwhelmed and fainted. 
2014-11-11T09:44:50Z pjb wonders about the thought processes leading to such false concepts.
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2014-11-11T09:46:49Z lavokad: (count 'bla '(bla ala bla papa haha bla)) => 3
2014-11-11T09:46:52Z Cymew loves how Lisp makes pointers makes sense, compared to C
2014-11-11T09:47:08Z lavokad: the expression above is done by reader then?
2014-11-11T09:47:09Z lavokad: :D
2014-11-11T09:47:12Z beach: pjb: Too much programming in a language without GC.  In such languages it is hard to program with uniform reference semantics.
2014-11-11T09:47:12Z Shinmera: I love that I don't have pointers at all.
2014-11-11T09:48:03Z beach: lavokad: The reader turns the symbols into unique pointers.  Do you understand?
2014-11-11T09:48:26Z pjb: lavokad: type: (READ) RET (count 'bla '(bla ala bla papa haha bla)) RET
2014-11-11T09:48:31Z pjb: to see what the reader does.
2014-11-11T09:48:59Z beach: lavokad: The reader might turn bla into the pointer 234, ala into 555, etc.
2014-11-11T09:49:29Z beach: You are left with counting the number of occurrences of the pointer 234 in a list of pointers.
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2014-11-11T09:49:47Z ecraven: lavokad: simplified, the reader, when it encounters a symbol, checks whether that symbol already exists. if it does, it returns the existing symbol, if it doesn't, it creates a new one
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2014-11-11T09:50:14Z jackdaniel: is this: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html way to now, or is it deprecated way to do put own projects for quicklisp locally?
2014-11-11T09:50:34Z lavokad: so the symbol is the object with four cells (pointers inside them) as in lispworks manual is told
2014-11-11T09:50:42Z lavokad: as the name cell is the first one
2014-11-11T09:50:45Z jackdaniel: *way to go
2014-11-11T09:50:57Z lavokad: the symbols pointer itself is the name's cell pointer
2014-11-11T09:51:01Z lavokad: right?
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2014-11-11T09:51:10Z pjb: WHY?
2014-11-11T09:51:16Z beach: lavokad: Pretty much.
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2014-11-11T09:51:38Z beach: lavokad: You are simplifying a bit too much.
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2014-11-11T09:51:53Z lavokad: because an object is a collection of consecutive memory cells
2014-11-11T09:51:54Z pjb: Why would that matter at all?
2014-11-11T09:52:00Z pjb: Nope.
2014-11-11T09:52:04Z pjb: An object is an object.
2014-11-11T09:52:20Z lavokad: but it has to implemented some way
2014-11-11T09:52:25Z beach: lavokad: A symbol is some kind of structured object that probably has at least two fields.  But it may be more complicated than a sequence of cells.
2014-11-11T09:52:42Z pjb: lavokad: it can be implemented ANY way, and certainly not as a collection of consecutive memory cells.
2014-11-11T09:53:00Z lavokad: A Lisp object is a collection of consecutive memory cells. Each cell is large enough to hold the address of any Lisp object; this stored address is called a pointer. For example, a cons consists of two memory cells, one for the car and one for the cdr. A symbol consists of one memory cell for each of its components: the print name, the value, the function binding, and the property list. Some objects, such as characters or small
2014-11-11T09:53:00Z lavokad: integers, are small enough that the object itself, rather than a pointer to the object, is stored in a memory cell.
2014-11-11T09:53:07Z lavokad: this is lispworks
2014-11-11T09:53:18Z beach: lavokad: LispWorks is an implementation of Common Lisp.
2014-11-11T09:53:33Z beach: lavokad: What is true for LispWorks is not necessarily true for all Common Lisp implementations.
2014-11-11T09:54:05Z beach: lavokad: Furthermore, what they write is very likely a simplification of reality.
2014-11-11T09:54:13Z pjb: lavokad: but foremost, the problem is asking about protons, neutrons and electrons, when you're discussing about 2H₂ + O₂ -> 2H₂O
2014-11-11T09:54:45Z pjb: lavokad: when you are doing chemistry, it just doesn't matter that nucleons are made of protons and neutrons.
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2014-11-11T09:55:08Z beach: lavokad:  Perhaps if you can explain to us what it is that you want to know, we can give a more appropriate answer.
2014-11-11T09:55:15Z pjb: Similarly, when you are working with symbols or objects, it doesn't matter what bit patterns are stored in memory.
2014-11-11T09:55:16Z lavokad: :)
2014-11-11T09:55:19Z beach: lavokad: Are you concerned about the efficiency of EQ?
2014-11-11T09:55:20Z lavokad: yeah sorry
2014-11-11T09:55:37Z beach: lavokad: All you need to know is that EQ is one instruction.
2014-11-11T09:55:40Z beach: It compares pointers.
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2014-11-11T09:57:24Z pjb: and you also need to know that EQ is an implementation detail, you should never use it.  Instead you would use EQL.
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2014-11-11T10:00:03Z lavokad: why (eql '3 3) => T ?
2014-11-11T10:00:09Z pjb: clhs
2014-11-11T10:00:12Z pjb: clhs eql
2014-11-11T10:00:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2014-11-11T10:00:16Z pjb: because it's written there.
2014-11-11T10:00:24Z pjb: clhs quote
2014-11-11T10:00:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm
2014-11-11T10:00:25Z pjb: and there.
2014-11-11T10:00:51Z pjb: read clhs quote and tell us what you don't understand about it.
2014-11-11T10:00:53Z beach: lavokad: Numbers are self-evaluating objects, so 3 evaluates to 3.  QUOTE is a form that, when evaluated, returns its argument unevaluated.
2014-11-11T10:01:16Z beach: lavokad: So both arguments evaluate to 3 before EQL is called.
2014-11-11T10:01:32Z pjb: Those are the fishes.
2014-11-11T10:01:39Z lavokad: okk
2014-11-11T10:01:44Z lavokad: i see now
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2014-11-11T10:05:10Z beach: pjb: "entries" rather.
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2014-11-11T10:09:14Z shortCircuit__: :( after I read the making of song database, I cannot get time to read more into lisp. :'(
2014-11-11T10:09:38Z lavokad: what a amazing stuff, it is so different from java and etc
2014-11-11T10:09:39Z lavokad: :D
2014-11-11T10:10:08Z beach: lavokad: Much simpler!
2014-11-11T10:10:12Z lavokad: why dont other languages have symbols, and only have strings?
2014-11-11T10:10:38Z beach: lavokad: Because people are so scared of Lisp they do anything to design languages that are different.
2014-11-11T10:10:42Z beach: Their loss!
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2014-11-11T10:11:17Z shortCircuit__: can you make a webpage with lisp
2014-11-11T10:11:20Z beach: shortCircuit__: "read more into lisp"?  Do you mean that you would have like to learn more about it?
2014-11-11T10:11:30Z beach: have liked
2014-11-11T10:11:57Z beach: shortCircuit__: Yes you can.
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2014-11-11T10:12:37Z shortCircuit__: O.O isn't that too much effort given the frameworks and languages like php ruby python
2014-11-11T10:13:09Z beach: shortCircuit__: Very easy.
2014-11-11T10:13:26Z shortCircuit__: Oh, let me google that for me
2014-11-11T10:13:42Z beach: minion: Please tell shortCircuit__ about hunchenoot.
2014-11-11T10:13:42Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``hunchenoot''.
2014-11-11T10:13:53Z beach: minion: Please tell shortCircuit__ about hunchentoot.
2014-11-11T10:13:53Z minion: hunchentoot: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot
2014-11-11T10:14:06Z beach: shortCircuit__: Look at that cliki page.
2014-11-11T10:14:12Z shortCircuit__: ok.
2014-11-11T10:14:30Z beach: shortCircuit__: I used hunchentoot to write a complete information system with a web interface a few years back.
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2014-11-11T10:14:39Z shortCircuit__: cool
2014-11-11T10:14:42Z beach: Much easier than to deal with databases and file and such.
2014-11-11T10:14:54Z beach: files
2014-11-11T10:15:05Z beach seems to have problems with plural forms today.
2014-11-11T10:15:11Z Shinmera: Most of my websites run on CL these days :)
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2014-11-11T10:15:19Z shortCircuit__: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ I started with this book, but since I got into the office I haven't been able to get past chapter 5. :(
2014-11-11T10:15:22Z beach: Shinmera: Do you also use hunchentoot?
2014-11-11T10:15:55Z Shinmera: beach: I have a complete abstraction over the webserver, but yes, indirectly. You can use other webservers with my framework as well though.
2014-11-11T10:16:05Z Shinmera: beach: I'm hoping to switch to Woo once it's been stable for a while.
2014-11-11T10:16:28Z beach: Shinmera: I see.
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2014-11-11T10:17:30Z shortCircuit__: I wonder if I would become good enough to build things. I have a wish to make an OS. mobile. with AI.
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2014-11-11T10:20:43Z beach: shortCircuit__: The standard rule says it take 10 years to master pretty much any subject.  Some people say 10000 hours (which is the same order of magnitude).  If you have normal intelligence, you can do it.  You just have to put in the time and the effort.
2014-11-11T10:21:26Z shortCircuit__: how do I know if I have normal intelligence
2014-11-11T10:21:56Z beach: Er, we are drifting off topic here.
2014-11-11T10:21:58Z pjb: You can pass IQ tests.
2014-11-11T10:21:58Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: you use weblocks or something else?
2014-11-11T10:22:07Z shortCircuit__: :P ok
2014-11-11T10:22:27Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: I'm using Radiance.
2014-11-11T10:22:33Z pjb: but if you have 90, that only means it'll take you 11111.111 hours instead of 10000.
2014-11-11T10:22:43Z beach: pjb: :)
2014-11-11T10:22:52Z shortCircuit__: It was just a thought though, that normal intelligence thing.
2014-11-11T10:23:05Z shortCircuit__: I mean the way I think things and the way  cannot think things compared to other beings don't ap[pear normal to me :PP
2014-11-11T10:23:06Z Shinmera: jackdaniel: You can read some dev blogs here http://blog.tymoon.eu/tagged/radiance And see the source for all of its components and sites here https://github.com/Shirakumo
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2014-11-11T10:23:23Z Shinmera: (the blog, coincidentally, is one of the things running on it)
2014-11-11T10:23:30Z jackdaniel: heh, ive typed it and already have it in tabs ;)
2014-11-11T10:24:34Z Shinmera: I initially hoped to release it this year, but some cleanup issues have arisen and I've slowed down development on it, so it'll most likely have to be 2015.
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2014-11-11T10:25:34Z jackdaniel: is there any page marked: *features*
2014-11-11T10:25:43Z jackdaniel: or should i dig sourcecode?
2014-11-11T10:27:20Z Shinmera: I'm not sure what you'd expect from such a page?
2014-11-11T10:28:16Z jackdaniel: hm, i mean engine - does it support something beyond publishing? ; ie comments
2014-11-11T10:28:53Z Shinmera: Well that's not a question of Radiance, but of your web-app, whatever that may be. For my blog I decided I didn't want comments, so it doesn't have that feature.
2014-11-11T10:30:24Z Shinmera: Radiance is the framework, Reader is the blogging platform running on top of Radiance.
2014-11-11T10:31:57Z jackdaniel: ah, that clarifies a bit
2014-11-11T10:32:20Z jackdaniel: you have nice blog btw, i like pics near posts
2014-11-11T10:32:28Z Shinmera: Thanks.
2014-11-11T10:33:11Z Shinmera: The idea behind Radiance was to provide both a framework to develop web-apps with as well as a multi-app CMS that people can use right-away.
2014-11-11T10:33:53Z Shinmera: But yeah, I still have to write proper docs that explain everything in a way that is more comprehensible than what I have in my head.
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2014-11-11T10:48:21Z josteink: its hard not to like org-mode :)
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2014-11-11T10:52:01Z freehck: good morning
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2014-11-11T10:52:40Z freehck: how do I check whether a object belongs to a class?
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2014-11-11T10:53:24Z H4ns: clhs class-of
2014-11-11T10:53:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clas_1.htm
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2014-11-11T10:54:04Z H4ns: some people like to define generic predicate functions that return a true value if an object is of a certain class.
2014-11-11T10:54:16Z H4ns: clhs typep
2014-11-11T10:54:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm
2014-11-11T10:54:34Z freehck: yep, I know it, but what I'm supposed to do with this #<STANDARD-CLASS PRIMITIVE-VARIABLES>?
2014-11-11T10:54:43Z freehck: How can I compare?
2014-11-11T10:54:57Z H4ns: look at typep
2014-11-11T10:55:13Z beach: freehck: As H4ns said: (typep object 'primitive-variables)
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2014-11-11T10:56:18Z freehck: H4ns: thank you
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2014-11-11T11:06:19Z beach: freehck: Every class is also a type.  The reverse is not true, though.
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2014-11-11T12:01:06Z ecraven: in hunchentoot, will the *first* prefix dispatcher be taken if multiple prefix dispatchers would handle a url? so in essence it's the last you've registered that matches?
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2014-11-11T13:42:38Z rick-monster: currently writing some CL bindings to CEPH rados (distributed filesystem).  Whilst the CFFI part was a walk in the park compared to all the trouble I've had with libalsa there's one part which is tricky...
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2014-11-11T13:43:52Z rick-monster: that is 'how can I present a file stored on CEPH to the rest of my program as a canonical stream'?
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2014-11-11T13:44:27Z H4ns: rick-monster: you could implement a gray streams interface to the files.
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2014-11-11T13:44:49Z H4ns: rick-monster: there is no standard way to hook into the pathname parsing / opening mechanism, though.
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2014-11-11T13:45:25Z rick-monster: ok H4ns will the part that reads/writes from CEPH need to be in a separate thread if I use 'gray streams'?
2014-11-11T13:45:43Z H4ns: rick-monster: not at all, no.
2014-11-11T13:45:47Z rick-monster: or will it take care of the concurrency without introducing threads?
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2014-11-11T13:46:09Z H4ns: rick-monster: i'm not sure what you mean by "the concurrency"
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2014-11-11T13:48:57Z rick-monster: my mental picture of how this should work is that there are 2 separate processes here, running 'concurrently':
2014-11-11T13:48:57Z rick-monster: 1. read from CEPH and write octets to the gray stream
2014-11-11T13:48:57Z rick-monster: 2. rest of the program blocks on read of the gray stream until there is enoug data to, for example, (read-line
2014-11-11T13:49:34Z H4ns: rick-monster: can't you just read from ceph from the thread that does the gray streams read request?
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2014-11-11T13:49:43Z H4ns: rick-monster: why would an extra thread be useful?
2014-11-11T13:51:04Z rick-monster:  H4ns I don't *want* an extra thread, but I couldn't visualise how it could work without one.  I'll go and read up on gray streams, then come back if still confused...
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2014-11-11T14:07:28Z freehck: people, I have a little misunderstanding with classes
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2014-11-11T14:08:04Z freehck: do classes inherit :initarg arguments from superclasses?
2014-11-11T14:08:08Z freehck: I have this:
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2014-11-11T14:08:12Z freehck: (defclass conservative-variables () ((vector :initarg :vector)))
2014-11-11T14:08:13Z freehck: (defclass cells (conservative-variables) ((coordinates :initarg :coord)))
2014-11-11T14:08:25Z freehck: why this cause an error:
2014-11-11T14:08:28Z freehck: (make-instance :vector (vector 1 2 3 4) :coord 0.0)
2014-11-11T14:08:40Z H4ns: you forgot to state the class name
2014-11-11T14:08:46Z H4ns: look at the error message closely.
2014-11-11T14:09:17Z drmeister: beach: I have asdf working now well enough to evaluate (asdf:load-system :cleavir-environment)
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2014-11-11T14:09:45Z freehck: H4ns: didn't understand. Where did I forget a class name?
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2014-11-11T14:10:49Z H4ns: (make-instance 'CELLS ...)
2014-11-11T14:10:50Z hitecnologys: clhs make-instance
2014-11-11T14:10:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm
2014-11-11T14:11:07Z freehck: omg...
2014-11-11T14:11:13Z freehck: thanks
2014-11-11T14:11:59Z drmeister: beach: Once I implement methods for VARIABLE-INFO and FUNCTION-INFO - are there tests I can run?
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2014-11-11T14:20:46Z beach: drmeister: Hello.  I am not sure whether the existing tests can be adapted.
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2014-11-11T14:21:11Z freehck: Sorry, but...
2014-11-11T14:21:12Z freehck: The class named CELLS::CONSERVATIVE-VARIABLES is a forward referenced class.
2014-11-11T14:21:13Z freehck: The class named CELLS::CONSERVATIVE-VARIABLES is a direct superclass of the class named CELLS::CELLS.
2014-11-11T14:21:27Z freehck: What does mean 'forward referenced'?
2014-11-11T14:21:34Z stassats: it's not defined
2014-11-11T14:21:36Z Xach: freehck: it means it has not been defined yet.
2014-11-11T14:21:49Z freehck: but it has beet defined in another package...
2014-11-11T14:21:53Z freehck: *been
2014-11-11T14:21:58Z H4ns: then you need to use the correct name
2014-11-11T14:22:00Z Xach: freehck: then you must ensure you are using the correct name.
2014-11-11T14:22:02Z H4ns: from that other package
2014-11-11T14:22:13Z Xach high-4s h4ns
2014-11-11T14:22:55Z beach: drmeister: It would be hard to make tests that work for each target.  The result of the translation depends on what is in your environment, such as macros, etc.
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2014-11-11T14:23:12Z freehck: True. (:export :conservative-variavles)
2014-11-11T14:23:14Z freehck: =/
2014-11-11T14:23:38Z beach: "variaVles"?
2014-11-11T14:24:13Z freehck: yes
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2014-11-11T14:26:06Z freehck: yep, I'd corrected this and now it works.
2014-11-11T14:26:40Z freehck: btw, do somebody here use slime?
2014-11-11T14:26:50Z beach: Er, yes.
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2014-11-11T14:26:56Z stassats: that's a strange question
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2014-11-11T14:27:01Z Xach: freehck: nearly everyone
2014-11-11T14:27:16Z freehck: when I type C-x C-e, f.e. a definition, in what package it will be defined?
2014-11-11T14:27:25Z stassats: the current
2014-11-11T14:27:28Z oleo: hello
2014-11-11T14:27:50Z beach: Hello oleo.
2014-11-11T14:27:54Z stassats: and C-x C-e is a poor way to add new definitions
2014-11-11T14:27:55Z freehck: in the package described in (in-package :pkg) in the top of the file or in the package I'm currently in slime REPL?
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2014-11-11T14:28:05Z stassats: freehck: yes
2014-11-11T14:28:17Z freehck: stassats: yes?
2014-11-11T14:28:24Z stassats: right!
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2014-11-11T14:28:29Z stassats: in-package when there is in-package, otherwise the current in the repl
2014-11-11T14:28:56Z stassats: and it tells you right in the modeline
2014-11-11T14:29:25Z freehck: um... What will happen if I have numerous strings (in-package ...) in my file?
2014-11-11T14:29:38Z stassats: what do you expect to happen?
2014-11-11T14:29:39Z H4ns: freehck: then you're doing something unusual
2014-11-11T14:29:43Z stassats: an implosion?
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2014-11-11T14:30:25Z freehck: H4ns: why do you think so?
2014-11-11T14:30:47Z H4ns: freehck: i dont "think" so, i know that it is unusual to have multiple in-package forms in one file
2014-11-11T14:30:49Z freehck: H4ns: all I do is writing a program to solve Riemann problem.
2014-11-11T14:31:03Z H4ns: freehck: that is because most programmers only use one package per file.
2014-11-11T14:31:06Z rick-monster: ok so H4ns I think that I can achieve my initial objective of reading from CEPH as follows:
2014-11-11T14:31:06Z rick-monster: 1. make a subclass of trivial-gray-streams:fundamental-stream
2014-11-11T14:31:06Z rick-monster: 2. (defmethod trivial-gray-streams:stream-read-byte for that class
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2014-11-11T14:31:19Z freehck: H4ns: no, it was just a curiosity.
2014-11-11T14:31:29Z rick-monster: does that sound like roughly the right idea?
2014-11-11T14:31:33Z freehck: Seibel wrote in PCL that I shouldn't do so.
2014-11-11T14:31:34Z H4ns: rick-monster: sounds cool.  the sbcl manual has some examples as to how you can define gray stream sub classes.
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2014-11-11T14:45:14Z beach: freehck: You are asking for trouble if you have more than one IN-PACKAGE form per file.
2014-11-11T14:46:07Z beach: freehck: The reason is that some tools such as SLIME may assume that there is a single one, and do the wrong thing if this restriction is not respected.
2014-11-11T14:48:49Z beach: freehck: Furthermore, people who want to read and understand your code may also make that assumption, so they may think that some forms are read in a package that is not the one they are really read in.
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2014-11-11T14:50:24Z freehck: beach: I got. But in the following text Seibel noticed that it's possible and is just a question of organization of your code.
2014-11-11T14:50:42Z beach: freehck: For instance, if I read the code of a Common Lisp file, and I can't remember what package it is in, I might do M-<, take a quick look, and then do C-x C-x.  I might then miss some IN-PACKAGE forms in between the current point and the beginning of the file.
2014-11-11T14:50:44Z freehck: I was a little bit confused.
2014-11-11T14:50:52Z H4ns: freehck: just because it is possible does not mean it is a good idea.  this is true for a lot of areas in lisp.
2014-11-11T14:51:49Z beach: It is even true for every programming language.  And it is true also for natural languages: the set of idiomatic expressions is a tiny subset of all the grammatical expressions.
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2014-11-11T14:52:15Z freehck: Well, I wont do such things.
2014-11-11T14:52:59Z drmeister: beach: I guess I'll just proceed then.  What would be the cleavir system that would allow me to convert S-expressions to ASTs?  Is it Code/Cleavir/Generate-AST/cleavir-generate-ast.asd ?
2014-11-11T14:53:13Z beach: Yes.
2014-11-11T14:53:26Z beach: I believe the entry point is also called GENERATE-AST.
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2014-11-11T14:53:49Z beach: As in (cleavir-generate-ast:generate-ast ...)
2014-11-11T14:54:05Z beach: But let me check just to be sure...
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2014-11-11T14:54:52Z beach: Yes, I think that's correct.
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2014-11-11T14:55:43Z beach: You remember that there is some code to draw the ASTs as Graphviz input, right?
2014-11-11T14:55:59Z beach: It helps when they are big and when there is shared substructure.
2014-11-11T14:56:36Z drmeister: So to generate ASTs  the system is Code/Cleavir/Generate-AST/cleavir-generate-ast.asd and the function is GENERATE-AST.   There's so much information and yet somehow I feel as if I know it already.
2014-11-11T14:56:52Z drmeister: Testing
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2014-11-11T14:57:33Z rick-monster: ok cheers - found those examples, so thanks for the help
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2014-11-11T15:01:41Z drmeister: Ok, cleavir-io requires COPY-READTABLE, a function that I haven't implemented yet.   But on the plus side asdf loaded a dependent system.
2014-11-11T15:02:43Z beach: Do you plan to implement it, or do you want to tell me how to modify my code so that you won't need it?
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2014-11-11T15:07:39Z drmeister: beach: I'll implement it - missing standard common lisp functions in Clasp are bugs in Clasp.
2014-11-11T15:08:16Z drmeister: I have 22 Common Lisp symbols that are yet to be defined.  COPY-READTABLE is one of them.
2014-11-11T15:08:25Z beach: OK.
2014-11-11T15:08:33Z beach: And FORMAT is another? :)
2014-11-11T15:08:44Z beach: And LOOP? :)
2014-11-11T15:09:01Z drmeister: No - that would be crazy.
2014-11-11T15:09:09Z beach: Just joking.
2014-11-11T15:09:25Z drmeister: These are the symbols that are yet to be defined - only some of them are functions:
2014-11-11T15:09:26Z drmeister: ("UNEXPORT" "STRING-CAPITALIZE" "SET-SYNTAX-FROM-CHAR" "REMPROP" "RATIONALIZE" "MOST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT" "MOST-NEGATIVE-LONG-FLOAT" "MAKE-RANDOM-STATE" "LONG-FLOAT" "LOGCOUNT" "LOGBITP" "LEAST-POSITIVE-NORMALIZED-LONG-FLOAT" "LEAST-POSITIVE-LONG-FLOAT" "LEAST-NEGATIVE-NORMALIZED-LONG-FLOAT" "LEAST-NEGATIVE-LONG-FLOAT" "FLOAT-RADIX" "DELETE-PACKAGE"
2014-11-11T15:09:26Z drmeister: "COPY-READTABLE" "CODE-CHAR" "CHAR-INT" "ATAN" "*RANDOM-STATE*")
2014-11-11T15:09:42Z drmeister: Do you see anything else that cleavir would need immediately?
2014-11-11T15:10:04Z beach: I don't think so.
2014-11-11T15:11:13Z drmeister: Readtables are implement in Clasp in C++ so it's on me to implement COPY-READTABLE.
2014-11-11T15:11:18Z drmeister: implemented
2014-11-11T15:11:36Z stassats: (defun rationalize (number) (rational number))
2014-11-11T15:11:51Z drmeister: stassats: Thank you.
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2014-11-11T15:12:18Z stassats: not exactly right, but anything that uses it shouldn't notice it for now
2014-11-11T15:15:49Z drmeister: Ah - and that uncovered another problem.  CL:RATIONAL the symbol is defined but the CL:RATIONAL function is not.   So there are some other things missing in Clasp.
2014-11-11T15:16:40Z drmeister: I'll have to check every function that shares a name with a class or some other Common Lisp entity.
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2014-11-11T15:17:09Z beach: drmeister: There is a string-capitalize you can take in SICL.
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2014-11-11T15:17:35Z beach: drmeister: SICL/Code/String/General/case-conversion.lisp
2014-11-11T15:17:44Z drmeister: beach: To draw AST graphs would I use cleavir-ast-graphviz:draw-ast ?
2014-11-11T15:17:49Z beach: Yes.
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2014-11-11T15:19:00Z beach: Easy, huh?
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2014-11-11T15:20:40Z beach: I should export some more names from the drawing package, so that methods can be added to the generic functions that do the actual drawing.
2014-11-11T15:20:57Z beach: That way, client code can add new AST classes.
2014-11-11T15:21:00Z drmeister: So to summarize.   Get COPY-READTABLE implemented, and then...
2014-11-11T15:21:39Z stassats: that should be trivial
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2014-11-11T15:23:13Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/vK54wCgk
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2014-11-11T15:24:52Z drmeister: readtables are not mutable - correct?
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2014-11-11T15:25:39Z drmeister: Or in other words (copy-readtable from to)    is the only way to change the state of the readtable "to"
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2014-11-11T15:26:19Z stassats: readtable are mutable
2014-11-11T15:26:48Z drmeister: Oh yeah - what was I thinking (or not thinking).  Duh.
2014-11-11T15:26:57Z stassats: why would there be COPY-readtable if they were immutable?
2014-11-11T15:27:33Z drmeister: I'll think before asking again.
2014-11-11T15:28:36Z drmeister: beach: Is the code snippet that I posted all that I need to get a graph of an AST?
2014-11-11T15:29:30Z drmeister: That and variable-info and function-info methods specialized on the CLASP-GLOBAL-ENVIRONMENT bogus top level environment class.
2014-11-11T15:30:01Z freehck: when I export class, do I export it's accessors?
2014-11-11T15:30:09Z freehck: *its
2014-11-11T15:30:28Z stassats: you can't export a class
2014-11-11T15:30:54Z drmeister: freehck: Symbols are exported.
2014-11-11T15:31:26Z drmeister: freehck: So no, the symbols for the accessors are not exported when you export the symbol that corresponds to a class name.
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2014-11-11T15:32:19Z freehck: okay, but then what really does this: (:export :conservative-variables) in my package definition?
2014-11-11T15:32:29Z freehck: conservative-variables is a class name
2014-11-11T15:32:43Z freehck: hm...
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2014-11-11T15:33:16Z freehck: drmeister: I think I got you.
2014-11-11T15:33:57Z H4ns: freehck: it is better to use uninterned symbols (#:conservative-variables) as string designator in symbol exports.
2014-11-11T15:34:14Z H4ns: freehck: otherwise you'll end up with all names duplicated in the keywords package, which can be annoying.
2014-11-11T15:35:03Z freehck: H4ns: so I shall write something like (in-package #:cl)?
2014-11-11T15:35:05Z stassats: it's not annoying if you don't look
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2014-11-11T15:36:04Z H4ns: freehck: packages are often referred to by keywords, so (in-package :foo) is fine
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2014-11-11T15:36:49Z freehck: H4ns: I asked because I noticed that in quicklisp code...
2014-11-11T15:36:51Z H4ns: freehck: but exported symbols from packages (in your defpackage :exports clause) are better specified as uninterned symbols.  that also makes them stand out graphically from the package definition clause keywords, which i find prefereable
2014-11-11T15:37:23Z drmeister: I've implemented READTABLE as a hash-table that maps CHARACTERs to plists -  I'll need to make copies of the plists - correct?   It's been a loooong time since I thought about read tables.
2014-11-11T15:37:45Z stassats: package keywords start from the open parenthesis, i don't think there's a need for any more standing out
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2014-11-11T15:39:35Z freehck: H4ns: There's another one thing I don't understand. Why do I use keywords in :export? Why don't I use usual symbols?
2014-11-11T15:39:58Z freehck: Keywords are evaluated to themselves, I got.
2014-11-11T15:40:13Z H4ns: freehck: you can use any symbol - or even strings.  symbols are designated by string designators in defpackage exports.
2014-11-11T15:40:14Z stassats: defpackage doesn't evaluate symbols
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2014-11-11T15:40:55Z H4ns: freehck: it is more a matter of how things look, what is common style and maybe what pollutes packages needlessly.
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2014-11-11T15:41:39Z H4ns: freehck: if you use unqualified symbols, they will be interned into the package that is current when the defpackage form is read.  that will certainly not be the package defined, because that is only created at that point, after the defpackage has been read.
2014-11-11T15:42:08Z freehck: Can I write (:export #addmap) for example?
2014-11-11T15:42:13Z stassats: no
2014-11-11T15:42:21Z H4ns: #addmap is not legal syntax
2014-11-11T15:42:34Z H4ns: well, it could be made legal syntax, but by default it is not.
2014-11-11T15:43:03Z stassats: it's hard to make it legal, it would mean losing arrays
2014-11-11T15:43:12Z freehck: no, sorry: (:export #:addmap)
2014-11-11T15:43:22Z H4ns: stassats: ask pjb about it.
2014-11-11T15:43:26Z H4ns: freehck: yes, that's the way.
2014-11-11T15:43:29Z freehck: #:addmap is an unintedned symbol addmap, right?
2014-11-11T15:43:43Z freehck: *uninterned
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2014-11-11T15:44:47Z freehck: oh... I'm so confused today... )
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2014-11-11T15:51:07Z beach: drmeister: Just came back.  Hold on while I read the scrollbacks.
2014-11-11T15:51:20Z drmeister: beach: No problem.
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2014-11-11T15:51:48Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how deep I have to copy readtables
2014-11-11T15:52:25Z beach: drmeister: I believe that's all the code you need.  But the easiest way to find out is to run it.
2014-11-11T15:53:04Z drmeister: My readtable(s) are hash-tables of characters->plist and the plists contain more hash-tables.   I think the copying has to be very deep so that I can copy a readtable and modify it every which way without changing the original.
2014-11-11T15:53:08Z beach: drmeister: You may or may not have a problem with the local environments.
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2014-11-11T15:53:39Z beach: drmeister: Either you write methods on x-info on your lexical environment classes, or you use the Cleavir classes.
2014-11-11T15:54:02Z beach: In the latter case, you might find that one of your native functions call macroexpand on a Cleavir class.
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2014-11-11T15:54:32Z beach: To avoid that, you must supply a method on the Cleavir function MACRO-FUNCTION.
2014-11-11T15:54:42Z drmeister: Which XXX-info methods do I need on the local environments?
2014-11-11T15:55:08Z drmeister: Yeah - this was going to be the tricky part.
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2014-11-11T15:55:58Z beach: drmeister: Both.
2014-11-11T15:56:04Z beach: variable-info and function-info
2014-11-11T15:56:23Z drmeister: Oh, just those two?    Do you have example methods for local environments?
2014-11-11T15:56:55Z beach: I always use the Cleavir ones.  It would be silly for SICL to have something other than what Cleavir supplies.
2014-11-11T15:57:21Z beach: Though I guess as an example of customization, I might do it some day.
2014-11-11T15:57:32Z beach: I tried doing it for SBCL, but gave up.
2014-11-11T15:57:50Z beach: You might not get into trouble right away.
2014-11-11T15:58:39Z beach: If nobody tries to call macroexpand, supplying an environment, and nobody checks what kind of object the environment is, then there might not be any errors.
2014-11-11T15:59:52Z beach: drmeister: Also, since you are my first "customer" you should expect problems in the beginning.
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2014-11-11T16:03:09Z beach: drmeister: I believe the "hostile" environment uses a workaround in that after binding *macroexpand-hook* it always passes NIL as the environment.
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2014-11-11T16:03:27Z beach: drmeister: This "solution" will give the wrong answer in some cases, but it might get you started.
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2014-11-11T16:06:05Z drmeister: Ok, well - let me get a little further and I'm sure I'll have some more questions.
2014-11-11T16:06:32Z beach: Sure.
2014-11-11T16:06:45Z beach: In a little while, I need to go fix dinner, but I'll be around a bit more.
2014-11-11T16:06:50Z drmeister: COPY-READTABLE is the first step.
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2014-11-11T16:10:41Z shka: ave tux|
2014-11-11T16:10:49Z shka: dear lispers, i updated emacs
2014-11-11T16:11:00Z beach: Impressive!
2014-11-11T16:11:09Z shka: and now, status bar slime hints are not working quite as well
2014-11-11T16:11:15Z shka: beach: lol
2014-11-11T16:11:32Z beach: I believe there was a fix for that the other day.
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2014-11-11T16:11:45Z shka: yeah, wanted to ask about that
2014-11-11T16:11:51Z H4ns: <Grue`> 13:02 <loke> (eldoc-add-command 'slime-space)
2014-11-11T16:11:51Z shka: what should i do?
2014-11-11T16:11:56Z H4ns: ^ that
2014-11-11T16:12:00Z shka: H4ns: thanks!
2014-11-11T16:12:02Z stassats: your slime is not updated enough
2014-11-11T16:12:03Z shka: let me try
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2014-11-11T16:13:15Z shka: H4ns: this works
2014-11-11T16:13:23Z shka: H4ns: thank you once again :-)
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2014-11-11T16:20:58Z freehck: Hey, I understand that methods are very cool! =)
2014-11-11T16:20:58Z freehck: I have defined operations for only base class, and all derivative classes inherited these methods.
2014-11-11T16:20:58Z freehck: When I wrote in C I needed to define new functions for this. And it was a great copy-paste monkey work... =)
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2014-11-11T16:42:27Z jusss: how to change a list to a symbol ?
2014-11-11T16:42:53Z H4ns: what?
2014-11-11T16:43:10Z jusss: a list like (#\< html #\>) how to change it to a symbol like '<html>
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2014-11-11T16:44:01Z H4ns: you cannot "change" the list, but you can create a string that contains what you need.
2014-11-11T16:44:20Z H4ns: you could use with-output-to-string and typecase
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2014-11-11T16:45:46Z jusss: eg ?
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2014-11-11T16:46:13Z H4ns: are you asking me to write the program for you?
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2014-11-11T16:52:48Z jusss: er. what's different in character and symbol
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2014-11-11T16:55:04Z cjfromthesea: if I have a lisp compiler like SBCL or something, can I access the common lisp libraries from C?
2014-11-11T16:55:12Z cjfromthesea: if it compiles to native code
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2014-11-11T16:59:16Z p_l: cjfromthesea: you can have callbacks from C shared libs to main program written in Common Lisp
2014-11-11T16:59:28Z p_l: cjfromthesea: there are some implementations that provide embeddable forms
2014-11-11T17:10:03Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth
2014-11-11T17:12:55Z Grue`: jusss: symbol names are strings, which are arrays of characters. so, in a way, symbols do consist of characters, but you need to create a string first and then create a symbol with that name
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2014-11-11T17:20:35Z jusss: Grue`: i see
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2014-11-11T17:34:15Z drewc: good morning CST/MST/PST'ers
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2014-11-11T18:03:04Z rick-monster: so I'm having a couple of issues here passing binary 'strings' to an external lib via cffi.
2014-11-11T18:03:41Z rick-monster: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144340 this are the relevant bits of the C header, cffi declaration and the way I'm calling the thing
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2014-11-11T18:05:39Z Xach: rick-monster: you don't have to match the argument list? (i don't know anything about cffi)
2014-11-11T18:05:46Z rick-monster: the whole thing comes unstuck if it gets hit by non-ascii data, perhaps not surprisingly.
2014-11-11T18:06:50Z stassats: the paste only has code in it
2014-11-11T18:06:53Z rick-monster: I autogenerated the cffi binding using a tool called swif
2014-11-11T18:07:01Z rick-monster: swig
2014-11-11T18:07:29Z easye:  Is there a library available by Quicklisp that provides a function that determines whether a given IP address is contained in CIDR notation subnet?
2014-11-11T18:08:21Z Xach: easye: i don't know, but i would try a quickdocs.org search to check
2014-11-11T18:08:33Z easye: Ah.  IOlib has sockets:inet-address-in-network-p
2014-11-11T18:09:02Z easye: Last time I checked IOlib had problems with ABCL.
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2014-11-11T18:09:13Z easye: Thanks, though, Xach.
2014-11-11T18:10:50Z rick-monster: stassats: I've repasted that code with some comments to describe more what I'm trying to show http://paste.lisp.org/display/144341
2014-11-11T18:11:11Z stassats: "this is the original C function declaration" is not
2014-11-11T18:12:08Z easye: Hmm.  Maybe IOLIB would load on ABCL.  It is more that it doesn't work easily on OS X.
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2014-11-11T18:12:48Z rick-monster: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144342 sorry that one should be correct now
2014-11-11T18:13:04Z stassats: please, next time annotate existing pastes instead of creating new ones
2014-11-11T18:13:33Z stassats: and there are no experts of the librados thing here, nobody knows which encoding it wants
2014-11-11T18:13:35Z rick-monster: yes, will do
2014-11-11T18:15:47Z rick-monster: I believe it should be ignorant of any character encodings
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2014-11-11T18:18:02Z rick-monster: my question is: can I just pass any old cffi foreign-pointer as 3rd argument to the lisp function rados_write_full with impunity, ignoring the fact that it's declared as type :string
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2014-11-11T18:18:40Z rick-monster: so I hope that is not off-topic for this room, and apologies for abusing the pastebin!
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2014-11-11T18:22:12Z stassats: as long as it's null terminated
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2014-11-11T18:23:48Z stassats: and (length (string-to-octets string)), do you not care about performance?
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2014-11-11T18:27:47Z stassats: (cffi:with-foreign-string ((string length) "string" :null-terminated-p nil) (rados_write_full io file-id string length))
2014-11-11T18:27:51Z stassats: would avoid double encoding
2014-11-11T18:30:09Z stassats: and for octets, cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data has a chance of being more efficient
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2014-11-11T18:32:54Z stassats: (and the buffer paramater is clearly not a string)
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2014-11-11T18:35:36Z rick-monster: ok that's really helpful. So first step would probably be to correct the defcfun, which was what I was unsure about
2014-11-11T18:36:14Z stassats: cffi is really dumb in that respect, so it doesn't matter much
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2014-11-11T18:38:54Z stassats: but if you always call it with pointers, :pointer would be a tad more efficient than :string
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2014-11-11T18:40:42Z eudoxia: Xach: is there a reason why Quicklisp can't download systems in :defsystem-depends-on?
2014-11-11T18:41:07Z eudoxia: i.e., if you have :defsystem-depends-on (:closure-template), loading that will raise the usual "system not found" condition
2014-11-11T18:41:13Z eudoxia: until you (ql:quickload :closure-template) manually
2014-11-11T18:42:29Z Shinmera: I was going to ask about that yesterday but just assumed it handled it. I guess not!
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2014-11-11T18:46:18Z rick-monster: right - think I get it.  Because with :string it has to check every time it's called whether it's getting a lisp-native string or a foreign pointer, right?
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2014-11-11T18:47:45Z francogrex: the common lisp quick references (clqr) is too dry to read and too spartan to be useful it needs some examples; given that the hyperspec and the cookbook are as accessible and more 'user friendly' the clqr's function is moot.
2014-11-11T18:49:53Z Xach: eudoxia: it's a bug in how quicklisp plans and then acts.
2014-11-11T18:50:02Z Xach: eudoxia: it has a "download missing" handler in "act" but not in "plan"
2014-11-11T18:50:22Z Xach: francogrex: Says you.
2014-11-11T18:50:45Z francogrex: wide poll
2014-11-11T18:50:53Z ejbs: francogrex: Too dry?
2014-11-11T18:51:18Z Grue`: i think you're supposed to print that out and have it on your desk to look up
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2014-11-11T18:51:31Z eudoxia: Xach: huh. is it fixable without rewriting most of Quicklisp?
2014-11-11T18:51:38Z stassats: memorize it, save the trees
2014-11-11T18:51:47Z Grue`: kinda like emacs cheat sheets some people made
2014-11-11T18:51:50Z Xach: eudoxia: yes
2014-11-11T18:52:05Z francogrex: Grue`: who prints these days, we're not in 1985 anymore
2014-11-11T18:52:14Z stassats: that would be a pretty bad design if it required rewriting the most of it
2014-11-11T18:52:35Z Xach: I'm capable of that
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2014-11-11T18:54:24Z ejbs: francogrex: Ok, then have it open in an Emacs buffer. But who uses Emacs anymore, this isn't 1976
2014-11-11T18:54:34Z francogrex: I think a short example for each entry would make it very good, but then it's won't be called the quick references anymore, it would become the not-so-quick but more practical refs...
2014-11-11T18:55:08Z francogrex: ejbs: :) emacs is still the best
2014-11-11T18:55:42Z Grue`: no need for examples, just run it at the repl, it's the lisp way
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2014-11-11T19:02:05Z rick-monster: thanks stassats for showing the right way to shovel binary data into CFFI.  Seems to be mostly working now - hurrah!
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2014-11-11T19:05:22Z drewc: 7 minutes till 11:11 11/11. Remember.
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2014-11-11T19:08:58Z francogrex: drewc: ok here I still have about 3 hrs
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2014-11-11T19:09:42Z drewc: francogrex: what timezone are you in? OR: what island are you on?
2014-11-11T19:10:08Z francogrex: that would have been more impressive in the year 2011, or even better yet the year 11.
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2014-11-11T19:10:20Z francogrex: the island of europe
2014-11-11T19:10:50Z drewc: So, europe cuts the days in half? Amazing!
2014-11-11T19:11:28Z drewc: that meann two high noons .... sights must be near impossible when noon has no sun directly overhead.
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2014-11-11T19:12:49Z francogrex: there is no sun at any time of the day
2014-11-11T19:13:26Z francogrex: (get-universal-time) => 3624721863 let the celebrations beging
2014-11-11T19:13:41Z drewc: amazing ... I guess I should get to know trolls and where they live. Who's that trippy trapping 'cross me bridge?
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2014-11-11T19:15:17Z francogrex: hold on a second; 11 (AM) is way behind me now. I am looking forward for 11 PM
2014-11-11T19:15:20Z drewc: anyways, for those who live on the surface of earth : Hostilities formally ended "at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month". Remember.
2014-11-11T19:15:34Z drewc: you mean 11 vs 23?
2014-11-11T19:15:50Z francogrex: err yes
2014-11-11T19:16:42Z francogrex: drewc: WWI & II were europe so my time is more approriate :p
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2014-11-11T19:19:52Z drewc: Ok .. but you are english or another tribe that uses a 12 hour clock ON LAND? ... fair enough... still. The day has 24 hours (and then some).... and the time we use is based on the sun. and 5:20 is when the surrender was signed IIRC ...
2014-11-11T19:20:17Z drewc: So, yeah, sorry master. I will bow now and go back to what I was doing :)
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2014-11-11T19:24:39Z Xach: drewc: Please, enough gibberish.
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2014-11-11T19:30:45Z francogrex: https://github.com/eudoxia0/corvus <- a nice project
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2014-11-11T19:32:07Z francogrex: the original project Hylas was more complete the author however decided to erase it and restart with that above. I cannot find the sources
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2014-11-11T19:57:45Z micahjam97: what data type is this: "Hello, World!". When I try (symbolp "Hello, World!") it returns nil. And it's obviously not a number.
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2014-11-11T19:58:07Z mood: micahjam97: It's a string
2014-11-11T19:58:24Z drewc: micahjam97: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_(computer_science)
2014-11-11T19:58:47Z micahjam97: I thought that the only data types in CL were symbols and numbers.
2014-11-11T19:58:51Z drewc: there are more types in programming languages than symbol and number
2014-11-11T19:59:04Z Grue`: micahjam97: but what about lists?
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2014-11-11T19:59:08Z micahjam97: How many data types are there?
2014-11-11T19:59:08Z drewc: you should learn lisp first, for that is not a 'sane' thought
2014-11-11T19:59:26Z Grue`: it's LISt Programming language, after all ;)
2014-11-11T19:59:44Z micahjam97: Grue` aren't lists made up of numbers and symbols
2014-11-11T20:00:00Z drewc: there is only one type! T
2014-11-11T20:00:04Z micahjam97: Grue`: I mean, aren't they just place holders?
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2014-11-11T20:00:13Z drewc: everything is of that type :)
2014-11-11T20:00:15Z Grue`: micahjam97: there's an arbitrarily large number of data types
2014-11-11T20:00:53Z Grue`: though probably a finite number of "atomic" data types
2014-11-11T20:01:08Z drewc: micahjam97: you should learn lisp before you make assumptions. There are no placeholders ... A list is either made of of CONS cells or is NIL
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2014-11-11T20:02:00Z drewc: micahjam97: (type-of '(1 2 3)) => CONS
2014-11-11T20:02:28Z micahjam97: drewc: hay, I only started learning lisp a few days ago. The books I read from only mentioned Symbols, Integers, and Lists being data types
2014-11-11T20:02:49Z drewc: micahjam97: (typep '(1 2 3) 'list) => T
2014-11-11T20:03:18Z drewc: micahjam97: I can recommend PCL and PAIP, unless you are new to programming as well?
2014-11-11T20:03:19Z ejbs: micahjam97: So the Gentle Intro book?
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2014-11-11T20:03:48Z micahjam97: drewc: I'''m not new to programming
2014-11-11T20:03:50Z drewc: ... which is what I was going to talk about if the answer to the question is positive
2014-11-11T20:04:00Z micahjam97: ejbs: yes the Gentle Book
2014-11-11T20:04:38Z drewc: micahjam97: Well, you should likely read PCL, and then look at http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/c_types_.htm
2014-11-11T20:05:59Z micahjam97: drewc: I'm kind of confused about that putting an apostrophe in front of a symbol to make read as data.Like, if I have 'A, does 'A have a value of nil or something?
2014-11-11T20:06:14Z drewc: micahjam97: and, just because a book you are reading only mentions those does not mean that is all the language has.
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2014-11-11T20:06:23Z drewc: clhs quote
2014-11-11T20:06:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm
2014-11-11T20:07:09Z drewc: 'A is a quoted symbol. .. (QUOTE A) is equivalent
2014-11-11T20:07:43Z micahjam97: drewc: okay then. I guess I just confused 'Basic data types' for 'only data types'. Sorry for that
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2014-11-11T20:10:26Z drewc: micahjam97:  (type-of (symbol-name 'a)) => (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (1)) ... symbols have names... and they are strings.... but that type specifier is not CL:STRING. ... so even with a symbol there are at least 3 types involved. (there is a lot more FWIW)
2014-11-11T20:11:40Z drewc: micahjam97: unfortunately, I will keep on pointing toward the hyperspec: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/10_.htm
2014-11-11T20:12:25Z drewc: micahjam97: In specific : http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_symbol.htm
2014-11-11T20:12:32Z micahjam97: drewc: you know what, I think the best thing for me is to ignore it for now, keep reading, then come back to it later
2014-11-11T20:12:47Z drewc: "The name of a symbol is a string used to identify the symbol."
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2014-11-11T20:14:20Z micahjam97: drewc: but the symbol is actually a pointer to the data that the symbol refers to right?
2014-11-11T20:15:05Z drewc: micahjam97: types are important... and given that there is deftype, defclass, defun, defstruct, defmacro etc, there are more types, and even if you those are the only "basic data types", there are still plenty.
2014-11-11T20:15:09Z drewc: No\
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2014-11-11T20:15:33Z drewc: symbols do refer to data sometimes, but there are no pointers in CL,.
2014-11-11T20:16:06Z micahjam97: I know there aren't pointers. I guess I meant that it points to the data
2014-11-11T20:16:52Z Grue`: that's one possible use of symbols
2014-11-11T20:17:29Z drewc: symbols are symbols. They can represent variables, but not always, and if fact not usually (at run time)
2014-11-11T20:17:40Z drewc: s/if/in
2014-11-11T20:18:15Z micahjam97: drewc: I think I get it now
2014-11-11T20:20:27Z drewc: micahjam97: do you know any assembler? (disassemble (lambda () (let ((a 1)) a))) and notice that there is no symbol in the ASM... or there could be for that matter but there shouldn't be :)
2014-11-11T20:21:21Z micahjam97: I don't know assembler
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2014-11-11T20:27:27Z drewc: well, one of the nice things about lisp is that the code is written using lisp data structures/types etc. That does not mean that the compiler keeps a reference to the symbol you lexical bind, and that may be confusing... and dynamic is a whole other ball park, but when you write (let ((foo ...)) ...), generally, the run time code does not know or care that you /had/ a symbol named "FOO" in the code you compiled. It only cares about the stack
2014-11-11T20:29:34Z micahjam97: why is it that, when i type list (list 'quote 'foo) i returns 'FOO and not a list with the symbols (QUOTE FOO)
2014-11-11T20:30:07Z drewc: because they are the same thing reader wise
2014-11-11T20:30:12Z drewc: clhs quote
2014-11-11T20:30:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm
2014-11-11T20:30:44Z drewc: micahjam97: 'a =>  A
2014-11-11T20:30:44Z drewc:  ''a =>  (QUOTE A)
2014-11-11T20:30:44Z drewc:  '''a =>  (QUOTE (QUOTE A))
2014-11-11T20:31:55Z micahjam97: but wouldn't something like '(quote foo) just be read as data and not evaluated? When I type '(+ 2 3) it returns (+ 2 3) and not 5
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2014-11-11T20:32:24Z drewc: yes.
2014-11-11T20:32:37Z drewc: do you have a REPL open?
2014-11-11T20:33:08Z micahjam97: yes. sbcl to be specific
2014-11-11T20:33:24Z drewc: (type-of (list 'quote 'foo))
2014-11-11T20:33:59Z drewc:  (type-of '(quote foo))
2014-11-11T20:34:32Z drewc:  (type-of (quote foo))
2014-11-11T20:34:45Z drewc: notice the difference?
2014-11-11T20:35:40Z micahjam97: so '(quote foo) is a list containing 'FOO?
2014-11-11T20:36:39Z mood: 'foo is just shorthand for (quote foo), so '(quote foo) is the same as (quote (quote foo))
2014-11-11T20:37:05Z drewc: imagine this (quote (quote foo)).
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2014-11-11T20:37:34Z drewc: ' is just a reader macro for (QUOTE (read)) really.
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2014-11-11T20:38:26Z drewc: so, when printing it, it is printed as a #\' even though it is read as a special operation.
2014-11-11T20:39:13Z micahjam97: drewc: I finally get it now
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2014-11-11T20:43:02Z drewc: micahjam97: yay! Now, this is important and only one day (actually two) a year where I will say it ... "Remember" it. (-:
2014-11-11T20:43:36Z micahjam97: thanks ;)
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2014-11-11T20:50:04Z drewc: micahjam97: And now, to digress into way to much detail ... imagine a shell script (which I will quote with #\|) : | FOO=1; echo $FOO |, which echos "1" to stdout. Now, imagine quoting the script (shell has strings, but can use an apostrophe/single quote thingie), and evaluating that string :
2014-11-11T20:50:21Z drewc: bar='FOO=1; echo $FOO' ; eval $bar
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2014-11-11T20:51:51Z drewc: Since CL has forms, we do not need the end quote, but (progn (defvar *foo* 1) (print *foo*)) is the first,
2014-11-11T20:52:40Z drewc: (let ((bar '(progn (defvar *foo* 1) (print *foo*)))) (eval bar)) for the second.
2014-11-11T20:53:32Z micahjam97: okay then
2014-11-11T20:53:44Z micahjam97: what does progn do?
2014-11-11T20:53:50Z drewc: clhs progn
2014-11-11T20:53:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm
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2014-11-11T20:55:08Z drewc: linebreaks and semicolons do not separate lisp code, so to combine many forms into one form, PROG1, PROG2 and PROGN are there to help.
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2014-11-11T20:56:55Z micahjam97: alrighty then, good to know
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2014-11-11T20:59:28Z akkad left "On Lisp" playing through tts as he fell a sleep last night.... bad idea
2014-11-11T20:59:37Z drewc: indeed. I can recommend PCL for a decent introduction to programming in CL when programming is something you already have a decent knowledge of.
2014-11-11T20:59:44Z drewc: minion: PCL?
2014-11-11T20:59:44Z minion: PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-11-11T20:59:50Z akkad: PCL then PAIP?
2014-11-11T20:59:54Z drewc: yup
2014-11-11T21:00:00Z akkad: no PG?
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2014-11-11T21:00:08Z drewc: both of mine are signed, I do not own any PG.
2014-11-11T21:00:09Z akkad: PAIP is pretty nice
2014-11-11T21:00:16Z akkad: that bad?
2014-11-11T21:00:38Z akkad: s/own/posses
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2014-11-11T21:00:43Z drewc: IMHO, and many others, even worse :)
2014-11-11T21:00:55Z akkad: good to know
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2014-11-11T21:01:42Z micahjam97: minion: PAIP?
2014-11-11T21:01:42Z minion: PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP
2014-11-11T21:02:10Z micahjam97: which one is PAIP?
2014-11-11T21:02:18Z drewc: but, not a bad thing if you want to learn about, well, how to design a certain language using a (pre?!) ANSI CL as a base, but I usually program IN lisp, not On Lisp... I hope that makes sense.
2014-11-11T21:02:28Z akkad: Paradigms in AI
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2014-11-11T21:02:44Z stassats: micahjam97: you can follow that link, you know
2014-11-11T21:02:45Z drewc: micahjam97: http://www.cliki.net/PAIP <--- this time click on it!
2014-11-11T21:03:06Z stassats: the difference between the CL on On Lisp and the ANSI CL is minute
2014-11-11T21:03:11Z akkad: (eww-browse-url "http://www.cliki.net/PAIP")
2014-11-11T21:03:30Z akkad: oic pre ANSI
2014-11-11T21:03:46Z akkad: CLTL is pretty hard read
2014-11-11T21:04:16Z micahjam97: i thought that if minion said 'no definition found ...' that meant it didn't exist or something
2014-11-11T21:04:19Z drewc: stassats: true, I agree... hence my ?! ... which is chess for a questionable yet possibly brilliant move.
2014-11-11T21:04:45Z stassats:  that usage of "?!" was questionable
2014-11-11T21:04:53Z drewc: fair enough.
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2014-11-11T21:06:42Z prxq: akkad: ACL by PG is a good read IMO
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2014-11-11T21:08:01Z prxq: akkad: there is valid criticism of it, but it is still mostly a good book
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2014-11-11T21:09:50Z akkad: just looking for stuff for the 3 hours of driving a day that plays well on tts :P
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2014-11-11T21:10:30Z stassats: that's not how you learn a language
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2014-11-11T21:12:25Z johann_: hey guys--i want to do some graphics programming. can anyone guide me to some graphics programming resources that hilite ~*the lisp way*~?
2014-11-11T21:12:42Z stassats: there's no lisp way for graphics programming
2014-11-11T21:12:49Z stassats: graphics are all the same
2014-11-11T21:13:09Z johann_: orly
2014-11-11T21:14:38Z johann_: ive found some recent projects that use lisp to make a dsl for glsl, the shader language for opengl
2014-11-11T21:14:57Z johann_: i mean its all the same at the level that matters least for humans but i mean there are better ways to cook a meal right
2014-11-11T21:15:42Z stassats: then good luck learning graphics programming without any resources
2014-11-11T21:15:58Z johann_: wait what
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2014-11-11T21:16:30Z johann_: have a nice day stassats i appreciate you taking the time to respond :)
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2014-11-11T21:24:48Z jasom: johann_: I think you'll want to learn graphics programming in general, first.
2014-11-11T21:25:17Z jasom: johann_: make sure your linear algebra is strong
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2014-11-11T21:29:10Z johann_: jasom: thanks :)
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2014-11-11T21:56:12Z akkad: stassats: i've learned a lot actually :P
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2014-11-11T22:01:58Z akkad: stassats: well that and http://linbsd.org/clhs.org org-drill helps a lot
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2014-11-11T22:27:12Z puchacz: hi, is there a setting for sbcl to signal an error safely if recursion level is greater than N please?
2014-11-11T22:27:29Z puchacz: I do not want "Stack exhausted. Proceed with caution" in production environment if I have a bug
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2014-11-11T22:28:11Z stassats: no
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2014-11-11T22:28:55Z puchacz: stassats: ok, thanks
2014-11-11T22:28:57Z stassats: what do you find less safe about the current error?
2014-11-11T22:29:33Z stassats: besides, stack is not about recursion
2014-11-11T22:30:43Z puchacz: "less safe about current error" - ok, let me turn the question - is it safe to catch it in (handler-case ..) and do not do anything about it?
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2014-11-11T22:31:00Z puchacz: safe in terms of sbcl stability, not my buggy call
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2014-11-11T22:31:15Z stassats: yes
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2014-11-11T22:31:21Z puchacz: ok, that solves my problem
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2014-11-11T22:31:33Z puchacz: now, intriguing comment - stack is not about recursion
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2014-11-11T22:33:03Z puchacz: isn't stack about environments allocated for each function call or similar constructs like LET ?
2014-11-11T22:33:14Z stassats: stack is anything goes
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2014-11-11T22:35:00Z puchacz: variable values that sbcl decides to put on stack rather than on heap?
2014-11-11T22:35:20Z stassats: you can ask to put things on stack
2014-11-11T22:37:04Z puchacz: ok, I see what you mean; so: function call environments always on stack (never on heap); variable values (objects) on stack or heap, whatever sbcl decides or I ask it to do?
2014-11-11T22:37:38Z puchacz: it is not academic question for me because there are memory switches for sbcl process as far as I remember
2014-11-11T22:37:42Z stassats: you can blow stack in a single function call
2014-11-11T22:38:10Z puchacz: if it is not too long I would be interested to see how please
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2014-11-11T22:39:24Z stassats: (let ((x (make-array 260000))) (declare (sb-int:truly-dynamic-extent x)) (elt x 0))
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2014-11-11T22:40:32Z puchacz:  thanks a lot
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2014-11-11T22:44:09Z stassats: currently for very large dx allocations the order of initialization approaches the stack guard pages from the wrong side
2014-11-11T22:44:15Z stassats: i plan on fixing that
2014-11-11T22:45:11Z puchacz: well, I took a note with a comment to find out how it works. I do not understand memory allocation in sbcl yet
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2014-11-11T22:46:50Z stassats: stack allocation is just bumping the stack pointer
2014-11-11T22:47:40Z stassats: heap allocation is basically the same, but it has allocation regions, and calls for help when they are exhausted
2014-11-11T22:47:49Z stassats: then the gc decides whether to allocated new regions or to perform a GC
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2014-11-11T23:09:16Z freehck: can I use in slot's :initform a name of another slot?
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2014-11-11T23:09:27Z H4ns: no.
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2014-11-11T23:09:32Z freehck: I suppose that no, but maybe
2014-11-11T23:09:35Z freehck: H4ns: thanks
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2014-11-11T23:11:07Z Grue`: freehck: use "(defmethod initialize-instance :after ..." to set slot values based on other slot's values
2014-11-11T23:11:43Z Grue`: and/or arbitrary make-instance keyword parameters
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2014-11-11T23:14:22Z freehck: Grue`: oh, it's the thing I was looking for.
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2014-11-11T23:29:15Z akkad: CDDDDR wow
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2014-11-11T23:53:11Z kohryu: 1) When using hunchentoot for a lisp webserver do I need to roll my own login system or is there some library I can use? 2) If the only options are non-lisp libraries, how do I set things up to run some language (php) beside hunchentoot? Do I need to put a proxy server like nginx in front of hunchentoot or something?
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