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2014-11-10T00:17:49Z dim: so yeah it was easy enough to monkey patch around cl-mssql
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2014-11-10T00:17:52Z dim: will prepare patches later
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2014-11-10T00:22:15Z nyef: On the one hand, I hate having to monkey-patch. On the other hand, it's so bleeding convenient to be able to do.
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2014-11-10T00:45:09Z dim: exactly my thinking
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2014-11-10T01:08:20Z zRecursive: Is '#0=(+ - . #0#) indefinite list ?
2014-11-10T01:09:33Z Bike: yep
2014-11-10T01:09:55Z zRecursive: Is it lazy ?
2014-11-10T01:10:02Z Bike: nope
2014-11-10T01:10:38Z zRecursive: what is its expanded form ?
2014-11-10T01:10:56Z Bike: what does that mean
2014-11-10T01:10:58Z zRecursive: '(+ - + - ...)
2014-11-10T01:11:07Z Petit_Dejeuner: It points to itself, doesn't it?
2014-11-10T01:11:27Z Bike: the second cons has the first cons as its cdr
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2014-11-10T01:12:57Z zRecursive: what is the car of 2nd cons ?
2014-11-10T01:14:11Z Bike: the symbol -, of course
2014-11-10T01:14:20Z |3b|: it is a circular list, it contains itself
2014-11-10T01:14:41Z |3b|: actually, 'contains' is probably the wrong word
2014-11-10T01:14:48Z Bike: there are two conses. the first cons has + as its car and the second cons as its cdr. the second cons has - as its car and the first cons as its cdr.
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2014-11-10T01:17:46Z zRecursive: '(+ (- (1st cons))) ?
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2014-11-10T01:18:02Z Bike: with dots
2014-11-10T01:18:19Z zRecursive: '(+ . (- . (1st cons))) ?
2014-11-10T01:18:24Z Bike: sure
2014-11-10T01:18:32Z Bike: we could even introduce a bit of syntax for circular references!
2014-11-10T01:18:34Z dim:   0: (SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR) ;; it was too smooth
2014-11-10T01:18:34Z zRecursive: great
2014-11-10T01:18:40Z Bike: then #0=(+ . (- . #0#))
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2014-11-10T01:20:52Z zRecursive: It is indefinte so it can not be produced eagerly, right ?
2014-11-10T01:21:00Z Bike: it can
2014-11-10T01:21:02Z Bike: it's just two conses
2014-11-10T01:21:04Z Bike: super easy
2014-11-10T01:22:28Z zRecursive: i am curious how it is placed in RAM ?
2014-11-10T01:22:30Z Bike: side effectful pseudocode: (let ((a (make-cons)) (b (make-cons))) (setf (car a) '+ (car b) '- (cdr a) b (cdr b) a) a)
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2014-11-10T01:23:54Z |3b|: zRecursive: it isn't an infinite list, it is a circular list
2014-11-10T01:24:11Z |3b|: it has exactly 2 conses
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2014-11-10T01:24:22Z zRecursive: i see now, circular indeed
2014-11-10T01:24:39Z |3b|: (though informally it isn't unusual to call it 'inifinite')
2014-11-10T01:25:12Z zRecursive: ok
2014-11-10T01:25:38Z |3b|: CDR doesn't do anything special with the circularity, so you can CDR down that list indefinitely, but you will still only see the same 2 conses
2014-11-10T01:26:35Z zRecursive: thanks
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2014-11-10T02:18:49Z pjb: Bike:  '#0=(+ - . #0#) is not an "indefinite list".  There is no notion of "indefinite list" in lisp.  This is a circular list.  Once you've said that, the second question become useless.
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2014-11-10T02:37:37Z Bike: zrecursive uses weird terminology for everything, i roll w/it
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2014-11-10T02:40:46Z zRecursive: Bike: worry! i just come back
2014-11-10T02:42:01Z zRecursive: s/worry/sorry
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2014-11-10T02:42:39Z zRecursive doing some works now, thx
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2014-11-10T03:36:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-11-10T03:46:52Z wglb: beach:
2014-11-10T03:47:03Z wglb: beach: Good morning. And good evening!
2014-11-10T03:48:10Z freehck: 22:45 <PuercoPop> freehck: Although I don't think it is a good idea to make + generic.
2014-11-10T03:48:42Z freehck: PuercoPop: thank you, first of all, but why is it not a good idea?
2014-11-10T03:48:56Z beach: freehck: Performance.
2014-11-10T03:49:30Z freehck: Gotcha.
2014-11-10T03:50:04Z freehck: But... I can define a symbol <pkg>:+ and export it, will it be better for performance?
2014-11-10T03:50:35Z beach: The symbol itself has no performance problems.
2014-11-10T03:51:08Z freehck: I mean I can use <pkg>:+ anywhere I want this functionality.
2014-11-10T03:51:23Z beach: Sure.
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2014-11-10T03:58:42Z beach: freehck: Are you just starting with Common Lisp?
2014-11-10T03:58:57Z nyef: ... Hello beach.
2014-11-10T03:59:18Z beach: nyef: What's up?
2014-11-10T04:00:05Z nyef: Been looking over my old Forth system (which I haven't touched in almost exactly eleven months), procrastinating on the "paying work" stuff, that kind of thing.
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2014-11-10T04:00:32Z beach: You use it for bootstrapping and such, right?
2014-11-10T04:00:46Z nyef: I did at one point.
2014-11-10T04:01:11Z nyef: I started rewriting it as a Linux program more recently, bootstrapping from Jonesforth.
2014-11-10T04:01:17Z beach: My brother wrote a small Forth system that he uses to debug hardware and software in cellphones.
2014-11-10T04:01:17Z ggVGc: "almost exactly"
2014-11-10T04:01:35Z nyef: Figured I'd use it to cross-compile stuff for a 6502 or 65816 system.
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2014-11-10T04:01:58Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.
2014-11-10T04:02:26Z nyef: ggVGc: Okay, nine months and 22 hours or so.
2014-11-10T04:02:37Z beach: Hello JokesOnYou77.
2014-11-10T04:03:00Z nyef: (Judging by the timestamp on the last commit in source control.)
2014-11-10T04:03:19Z nyef: Err... s/nine/eleven.
2014-11-10T04:03:33Z nyef: Gah! Can't even do a substitute correctly right now. /-:
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2014-11-10T04:03:51Z freehck: beach: yes, I have been using Racket Scheme and Emacs Lisp for a very long time, but now I'm looking for something more powerful.
2014-11-10T04:04:11Z beach: freehck: Great!
2014-11-10T04:04:23Z nyef: ... There's something more powerful than PLT^H^H^HRacket Scheme?
2014-11-10T04:05:34Z freehck: I hope it will be sbcl.
2014-11-10T04:06:34Z freehck: Racket has a pile of well-documentated libraries, but it also has a performance and memory consumption problems.
2014-11-10T04:07:03Z freehck: the second one is the most unpleasant for me
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2014-11-10T04:08:36Z JokesOnYou77: So with other languages (php and jquery to name a few) the online documentation includes user-provided examples. I have found such examples to be as useful, if not more so, than the actual documentation. Why doesn't Lisp have something like this?
2014-11-10T04:09:15Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Because nobody wrote it?
2014-11-10T04:09:43Z JokesOnYou77: I realize that LW maintains the hyper spec, but i dont think that prohibits a parallel project. Is there a movement for such a project?
2014-11-10T04:10:04Z JokesOnYou77: Because, frankly, the hyperspec sucks. :/
2014-11-10T04:10:17Z pillton: No it doesn't.
2014-11-10T04:10:24Z beach: JokesOnYou77: I have a project to write a Common Lisp language reference.  It would obviously contain examples.
2014-11-10T04:10:37Z nyef: As a standards document, the hyperspec is awesome. But it's not a users manual, nor was it intended to be.
2014-11-10T04:11:31Z beach: JokesOnYou77: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CL-reference
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2014-11-10T04:11:47Z JokesOnYou77: Nyef: then that makes sense. As i guess the hyperspec was created as part of the effort to codify the Lisp dialects. But that means we still lack an essentail reference
2014-11-10T04:12:31Z nyef: Oh, it's a great REFERENCE, it's just not a great TUTORIAL.
2014-11-10T04:12:44Z pillton: How is the document defining the language not an essential reference?
2014-11-10T04:13:28Z |3b|: JokesOnYou77: copyright situation of hyperspec is muddy, so nicer versions are a bit more effort to make
2014-11-10T04:14:15Z |3b|: though probably wouldn't be /that/ hard to make a new html version from the last draft spec
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2014-11-10T04:14:28Z JokesOnYou77: Sorry for the inflammatory statement. The hyperspec is a poor reference for someone trying to learn the language.
2014-11-10T04:15:23Z |3b| thinks i liked it for that too, but it does take a while to get used to it
2014-11-10T04:15:57Z JokesOnYou77: Also, i was unclear about the licensing of the hyperspec. And it sounds like it's not alltogether clear on its own
2014-11-10T04:16:05Z |3b|: JokesOnYou77: you have seen practical common lisp, right?
2014-11-10T04:16:30Z |3b|: the hyperspec is a copyrighted html translation of a draft of the ansi spec
2014-11-10T04:16:44Z JokesOnYou77: Beach: that's awesome! I should start contributing!
2014-11-10T04:16:53Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Please do!
2014-11-10T04:17:22Z JokesOnYou77: 3b, indeed, i own it
2014-11-10T04:17:29Z JokesOnYou77: !
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2014-11-10T04:19:28Z JokesOnYou77: I learned lisp i college. And in the few years since then. I've found that i really love functional programming. But I've honestly found this channel (and Graham's books) more useful than the online references.
2014-11-10T04:19:32Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Please read the appendix if you want to contribute.  I can's accept copyrighted material.
2014-11-10T04:19:54Z beach: can't
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2014-11-10T04:20:34Z JokesOnYou77: Beach: i skimmed the app-contributing.txt it makes sense.
2014-11-10T04:20:51Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Yeah, it's very important.
2014-11-10T04:21:44Z beach: A Common Lisp reference like this is basically straightforward to write.  It is one of those things that you can do one paragraph per day.
2014-11-10T04:21:54Z beach: In a few years, it will be done.
2014-11-10T04:22:27Z JokesOnYou77: I have mixed feelings about php as a language, but learning it was unbelievably easy because the reference was so good. I just want Lisp to be that way. And the thing that made the difference was the use examples.
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2014-11-10T04:22:42Z JokesOnYou77: *user
2014-11-10T04:24:32Z JokesOnYou77: I hope im not clogging the channel btw, I just really wanted to ask this question.
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2014-11-10T04:27:58Z JokesOnYou77: So...what do/did you guys use for a reference? (I assume most of you are beastly enough that all you need at this point is the hyperspec and a repl)
2014-11-10T04:28:03Z beach: JokesOnYou77: Like I say in the README file, this document is not going to write itself, and I am not going to write all of it, so start contributing!
2014-11-10T04:28:22Z JokesOnYou77: Yes sirr!
2014-11-10T04:29:21Z JokesOnYou77: I'll see what i can do as this is an import issue to me. I am far from an expert though unfortunately
2014-11-10T04:29:44Z beach: You can definitely gather some examples.
2014-11-10T04:30:05Z JokesOnYou77: Also, ive been following Learn Lisp the Hard Way recently and its really amazingly.
2014-11-10T04:30:11Z beach: Just either make them up, or obtain the right to include from the person who came up with it.
2014-11-10T04:30:13Z JokesOnYou77: *amazing
2014-11-10T04:31:31Z JokesOnYou77: Beach: you should talk to the Phoeron from llthw
2014-11-10T04:31:47Z JokesOnYou77: http://learnlispthehardway.org
2014-11-10T04:32:26Z JokesOnYou77: He's definitely a lisp/sbcl guy, tho i dont know if he hangs out here.
2014-11-10T04:32:42Z ThePhoeron: JokesOnYou77: actually, I'm here right now
2014-11-10T04:33:18Z beach: Heh!
2014-11-10T04:33:28Z beach: Amazing, indeed.
2014-11-10T04:33:35Z ThePhoeron: and thanks for your kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying LLTHW so far... but it still needs a lot of work
2014-11-10T04:34:08Z beach thinks JokesOnYou77 fainted.
2014-11-10T04:34:24Z JokesOnYou77: ThePhoeron: omg! You're a celebrity at my office! Our lead researcher is all Lisp and when we found your book/project it was a major event.
2014-11-10T04:34:39Z JokesOnYou77: I almost did faint lol
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2014-11-10T04:36:06Z ThePhoeron: wow, I'm not sure what to say to that
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2014-11-10T04:37:26Z JokesOnYou77: ThePhoeron: I worked through the first 2 chapters as they are. I learned more practical Lisp than a full year of school (mostly about streams as i/o wasn't emphasized in class)
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2014-11-10T04:39:49Z nyef: ThePhoeron: Neat project. Two application areas that you might want to consider for "advanced, but not too advanced" hacking are working with user-mode USB, and talking to serial ports (useful for connecting to an arduino-based process).
2014-11-10T04:41:03Z ThePhoeron: JokesOnYou77: that's great! I'm glad it's actually helping
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2014-11-10T04:42:05Z ThePhoeron: nyef: yes, actually, that would help bridge the difficulty jump in the chapters planned for part 3
2014-11-10T04:43:16Z JokesOnYou77: ThePhoeron: In school, i primarily learned to think about language-independent algorithms, so the practical approach in llthw is incredibly useful.
2014-11-10T04:43:18Z nyef: As though part 2 doesn't have some downright hard esoterica in it?
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2014-11-10T04:45:18Z ThePhoeron: nyef: granted :) once I finish shaping the chapters with the intro texts, I'm going to start working backwards from the end with the exercises to build up the pace
2014-11-10T04:47:46Z ThePhoeron: JokesOnYou77: yes, I really took to Zed Shaw's methodology, and like he mentioned on Hacker News, LLTHW will hopefully solve a pain point in Lisp education
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2014-11-10T04:47:58Z Zhivago: Hopefully it's better quality than Zed's stuff.
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2014-11-10T04:48:51Z JokesOnYou77: I find that to be part of the beauty of the thing. Lisp _is_ esoteric and low level (especially compared to current popular paradigms) and the projects emphasize the power and utility of the language
2014-11-10T04:49:18Z nyef: ... If this were already complete, with this outline, I would expect to learn quite a bit from part three, and probably a few things from part two as well.
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2014-11-10T04:52:51Z madrik: Zhivago: I am somewhat familiar with Zed Shaw's /Learn Python the Hard Way/.  Why do you say the quality could be better?
2014-11-10T04:53:02Z JokesOnYou77: ThePhoeron: I'm unfamiliar woth Zed, but i certainly believe that it solves a pain point. As Grahams ANSI Common Lisp was the reference text in school, i feel that llthw addresses the same issue in a much more engaging way. And written by someone who clearly loves the language
2014-11-10T04:53:34Z Zhivago: Well, the C version is riddled with errors.
2014-11-10T04:53:49Z Zhivago: I hear that the python version is also a bit dodgy, but I haven't looked, myself.
2014-11-10T04:54:04Z JokesOnYou77: Anyways, its awesome to know that you habg out here. Llthw is an amazing project and i will definitely keep working through it and try and give feedback.
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2014-11-10T04:56:35Z ThePhoeron: JokesOnYou77: Thanks! Feel free to leave comments on the site---obviously if you come across any errata, but I would also like feedback on difficulty and pace, if that's alright
2014-11-10T05:03:10Z ahungry: Hey all, lispbuilder-sdl states that it has the option to flip a surface (an image in this case) according to the doc http://lispbuilder.sourceforge.net/lispbuilder-sdl.html#rotate-surface-xy, but when I attempt to call it on a #'load-image surfaced object, it simply does not work
2014-11-10T05:03:14Z ahungry: Anyone know why that would be?
2014-11-10T05:03:56Z madrik: Zhivago: What I know of the C version is that it tries to teach modern practices and to skewer the code in K&R.
2014-11-10T05:04:15Z madrik: It was still in alpha the last I checked.
2014-11-10T05:05:55Z JokesOnYou77: ThePhoeron: ofc! Id love to give my perspective. But as my pace is slow it will take some time before i am able to give meaningful feedback on pacing. Speaking of, i think ill get back to Part 1 :)
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2014-11-10T05:11:17Z Zhivago: madrick; Well, if 'modern practices' means 'undefined behavior' ... perhaps.
2014-11-10T05:12:07Z axion: ThePhoeron: Nice book. I've been coding in Lisp exclusively for several years, and I still think I can gain a lot of value by reading this - the first few chapters interest me anyways. Are you actively maintaining it? I may offer some suggestions, etc as I read it...this seems like what Lisp really needs. :)
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2014-11-10T05:15:31Z ThePhoeron: axion: thanks! I try to work on it every day.  I expect my progress will be more noticeable once I get back to the exercises
2014-11-10T05:16:13Z musegarden: ThePhoeron: I am seriously in awe of your github contribution streak
2014-11-10T05:16:27Z musegarden: I am a former coworker with JokesOnYou77
2014-11-10T05:16:39Z musegarden: your work was very popular :)
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2014-11-10T05:18:12Z brucem: how long is ThePhoeron's Github streak?
2014-11-10T05:19:24Z ThePhoeron: brucem: it's not that long... 175 days including my private repos
2014-11-10T05:20:22Z ThePhoeron: musegarden: but thanks!
2014-11-10T05:20:40Z brucem: ThePhoeron: not bad .. my streak just dropped to 274 days from over 670 due to some repo disappearing and my contributions going away :(
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2014-11-10T05:21:55Z ThePhoeron: brucem: ah, that's unfortunate :\ but 274 days is nothing to sneeze at either!
2014-11-10T05:22:12Z JokesOnYou77: Thats some serious dedication. Im not sure my work repos have that kind of consistency :P
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2014-11-10T05:47:15Z beach: Here is an idea for a project: A CLOSy library for communicating with compositing display servers.  It should have a Wayland backend and a X11 render extension backend.
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2014-11-10T05:50:19Z JokesOnYou77: I'd love to have more control over my compositing.  Not to mention some involvement with Wayland
2014-11-10T05:51:03Z beach: The trick would be to abstract out as many commonalities as possible between Wayland and X11 render extension.
2014-11-10T05:51:23Z beach: ... and other compositing display servers of course.
2014-11-10T05:52:43Z beach: Such a project would be an order of magnitude easier than a CLOSy version of CLX.
2014-11-10T05:54:53Z JokesOnYou77: I won't pretend that I have any experience with either Wayland or X, but my impression is hat most of the abstraction would take place in defining the classes, but you would still need methods for each library and though users of the library would benefit from the abstraction, writers would still need intimate knowledge of both projects
2014-11-10T06:01:55Z Zhivago: Instead, you might do better by targeting compositing displays.
2014-11-10T06:02:17Z Zhivago: Ah, which is what Beach suggested.
2014-11-10T06:02:54Z Zhivago: In which case, it's just an issue of getting lisp to draw bitmaps and then give compositing requests.
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2014-11-10T06:03:43Z Zhivago: You should be able to abstract most of the underlying stuff easily enough, but then for a usable ID (rather than compositing display writer), you also need to handle things like IMEs.
2014-11-10T06:05:00Z JokesOnYou77: Out of curiosity, is this something Capi can do?
2014-11-10T06:07:25Z loke has decided that log4cl is actually pretty cool
2014-11-10T06:08:40Z JokesOnYou77: How does Lisp determine hash key equality for user-defined objects/classes?
2014-11-10T06:08:51Z loke: JokesOnYou77: it doesn't
2014-11-10T06:09:53Z JokesOnYou77: So I need to specify a custom test if I want to use objects as keys?
2014-11-10T06:09:57Z loke: You can only use EQL or EQUAL as comparison methods
2014-11-10T06:09:58Z JokesOnYou77: What about structs?
2014-11-10T06:10:30Z loke: just look at the definition of EQUAL and EQL. That's what you get
2014-11-10T06:10:56Z loke: Oh, and EQUALP and EQ as well
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2014-11-10T06:14:25Z JokesOnYou77: Right, I guess my real question should have been, how will (make-hash-table :test #'equal) treat user-defined objects?  The hyperspec doesn't appear to say anything about objects
2014-11-10T06:14:33Z |3b|: clhs equal
2014-11-10T06:14:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
2014-11-10T06:15:16Z |3b|: see the 'other' part, structures and instances are EQUAL only if they are EQ
2014-11-10T06:15:17Z loke: It's a bit annoying, because EQUALP compares structs in the way you want, but its members are compared using EQUALP as well, meaning that strings are compared case-INsignificantly
2014-11-10T06:15:23Z loke: thus rendering it useless in most cases
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2014-11-10T06:16:04Z loke: How that misfeature could be standardised is meyond me
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2014-11-10T06:17:07Z loke: JokesOnYou77: Anyway, the answer to your question is that the standard hashtables can't do what you want. You probably want to look at alternative implementations. (QL:SYSTEM-APROPOS "hash") shows a few options
2014-11-10T06:17:25Z JokesOnYou77: Ok, should have kept reading on the docs.
2014-11-10T06:18:10Z loke: JokesOnYou77: CL-CUSTOM-HASH-TABLE seems to do what you wnat
2014-11-10T06:18:11Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: see also https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/4TSbDlvHGY4/RGV4rBeECLMJ
2014-11-10T06:18:40Z pjb: What were you doing last month? NOT reading cll???
2014-11-10T06:19:07Z |3b|: was something wanted beyond putting objects in hash tables and getting them back out? the standard hash tables work fine for that
2014-11-10T06:19:22Z |3b|: you just can't customize the hashing
2014-11-10T06:19:34Z Bike: wow, that WJ person is still there
2014-11-10T06:19:36Z JokesOnYou77: loke, *sigh* I'll take a look.  I really wanted this to work with the standard implementation :/  But, theoretically, EQUALP would do what I wanted if I could control for casing?
2014-11-10T06:19:41Z loke: pjb: I haven't read cll in months. You can thank the trolls for that. Those guys are incredibly persistent. To an amazing degree, in fact.
2014-11-10T06:19:57Z Bike: it's been, like, two years probably? damn
2014-11-10T06:20:05Z loke: JokesOnYou77: Yes, theoretically. And only for structs
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2014-11-10T06:20:40Z pjb: loke: there are KILL FILES in news readers, just as there is /ignore in irc clients.
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2014-11-10T06:21:00Z jasom: pjb: still end up seeing the replys to trolls though
2014-11-10T06:21:17Z loke: pjb: I'm browsing using groups, so that's not accessible to me.
2014-11-10T06:21:18Z pjb: gnus can be configured to avoid even that.
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2014-11-10T06:21:25Z loke: and what jasom said
2014-11-10T06:21:38Z JokesOnYou77: What I want is to have objects as keys. I'm basically trying to create an in-memory data structure that I should really be using SQL/database for but it's just small enough that I can get a lot of benefit from being all in RAM
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2014-11-10T06:22:01Z loke: JokesOnYou77: Just use one of the existing implementations. I already pointed you to one.
2014-11-10T06:22:08Z loke: JokesOnYou77: They do exactly what you want.
2014-11-10T06:22:12Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2014-11-10T06:22:15Z JokesOnYou77: loke, yay!
2014-11-10T06:22:53Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, this looks quite comprehensive...I love it!
2014-11-10T06:23:21Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: you have to know what equality you want for your objects, when used as keys.
2014-11-10T06:23:28Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: it's safe to use EQL.
2014-11-10T06:23:45Z pjb: It's more foolish to want a different equality.
2014-11-10T06:24:03Z pjb: For one thing, one principle of OOP is that objects have identity. (ie. EQL).
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2014-11-10T06:24:37Z JokesOnYou77: yeah, but only if I want keys to be distingushed by object identity.  What if I want to parse input data into a class/struct of some form and then query a hash to see if I already have it?
2014-11-10T06:24:57Z loke: pjb: Well, using strings as hash keys are quite common. And yes, I know strings are (can be) mutable in CL, but we all know it's incredibly rare to mutate a string.
2014-11-10T06:24:58Z pjb: Just obtain the key object and use it.
2014-11-10T06:25:18Z pjb: loke: for strings, there is EQUAL (and EQUALP for case insensitive strings).
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2014-11-10T06:25:24Z loke: pjb: exactly
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2014-11-10T06:25:48Z loke: pjb: If that was your point, I must have misunderstood you and we're actually in agreement.
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2014-11-10T06:26:51Z pjb: But: (let ((h (make-hash-table :test 'eql)) (s (make-string 1 :initial-element #\a))) (setf (gethash s h) 'hello) (setf (aref s 0) #\b) (gethash s h)) --> hello, t
2014-11-10T06:27:28Z loke: pjb: yes of course. But that happens so rarely that assuming strings are immutable usually works well in practice
2014-11-10T06:27:30Z pjb: Of course, (let ((h (make-hash-table :test 'equal)) (s (make-string 1 :initial-element #\a))) (setf (gethash s h) 'hello) (setf (aref s 0) #\b) (gethash s h)) --> nil, nil
2014-11-10T06:27:44Z JokesOnYou77: How?  My input data is natural language text, all I have at the time of parse is the object properties.  I can instantiate a new instance with the same properties and look for it, but don't really have a good way to get an object Id without creating several new hash-based query structure to accomodate that equality test
2014-11-10T06:28:47Z pjb: JokesOnYou77: then you want properties -> object, not object -> what?
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2014-11-10T06:29:29Z pjb: (gethash '("car" "n" "s") h) --> #<word car>
2014-11-10T06:30:34Z pjb: That's also a reason why there is nothing fancy for objects as keys: you would usually add slots to the objects, instead of going thru a hash-table.
2014-11-10T06:31:03Z JokesOnYou77: :/ I was hoping to use the hash value to store additional info about the object that I couldn't get from the intial instantiation.  Like frequency count, neighbors in the knowledge graph and directionality of relations.
2014-11-10T06:31:36Z pjb: Objects are mutable. you can set additional info after their initialization. This is not C++.
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2014-11-10T06:32:48Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, But, wait, their hash value doesn't change if I change the object?  So...hmmmm no I have to think lol.
2014-11-10T06:32:55Z pjb: Nope.
2014-11-10T06:32:57Z pjb: clhs sxhash
2014-11-10T06:32:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sxhash.htm
2014-11-10T06:33:19Z pjb: That said, nothing says that gethash uses shxhash anyways.
2014-11-10T06:33:57Z pjb: clhs equal
2014-11-10T06:33:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
2014-11-10T06:34:10Z pjb: objects are only compared for their identity in CL.
2014-11-10T06:34:40Z pjb: bbl
2014-11-10T06:34:56Z JokesOnYou77: I can set the initial values to some stuff as NIL and then just modify them?  My plan is to have the entire dataStore in an object that has a massive hash as one of it's properties and has methods for adding new entries that take care of things like increasing count etc.
2014-11-10T06:36:40Z JokesOnYou77: I have so little CLOS experience that it's almost silly, so I'm not surprised that I didn't think of that.  I'm better at Java than I am at CLOS (and I really suck at Java)
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2014-11-10T06:50:02Z JokesOnYou77: pjb, You really have me thinking now.  My plan was to have a hash tree mapping each word lemma to each of the different possible paths but now I'm beginning to doubt my schema.  It's also a bit funny that I avoided doing all of this in SQL/postgres because I thought it would be a hassle, but now I feel like embracing the B-tree
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2014-11-10T10:05:39Z ecraven: how do I correctly use elephant in test cases?
2014-11-10T10:06:02Z ecraven: say I have defpclass'd something, how do I now use this in a test case (using fiveam) without actually persisting it
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2014-11-10T10:40:40Z Grue`: ecraven: when testing database-related stuff, people usually create a test database and run tests on it, with persistence and all, then it's reset to the initial state or recreated from scratch
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2014-11-10T10:47:00Z ecraven: Grue`: is there a sort of in-memory backend for elephant, that just goes away when I close it?
2014-11-10T10:47:23Z stassats: that wouldn't test it in the same way, now would it?
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2014-11-10T10:48:02Z ecraven: well, I mainly want to test the model, not the persistence :) but you're right
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2014-11-10T10:48:23Z ecraven: stassats: a question about commonQt, is there a way to check an integer and an enum for equality without using enum-value?
2014-11-10T10:48:33Z stassats: enum=
2014-11-10T10:48:53Z stassats: or not
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2014-11-10T10:49:11Z stassats: that's for enum and enum
2014-11-10T10:49:55Z stassats: just use enum-value
2014-11-10T10:50:11Z ecraven: ok, thanks
2014-11-10T10:50:34Z stassats: i may add enum-eql, but that's bound to confuse people
2014-11-10T10:50:45Z stassats: or rather, enum-equal
2014-11-10T10:51:03Z stassats: so that it disregards the type of the enum, and takes integers into account
2014-11-10T10:53:22Z stassats: right, that's a good idea, will do later today
2014-11-10T10:53:45Z stassats: maybe because i want to see 'commonqt' among the list of updated projects in quicklisp
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2014-11-10T11:48:45Z rick-monster: any recommendations for the best tool to autogenerate cffi bindings for a C library?
2014-11-10T11:50:33Z rick-monster: I've been slightly banging my head against the wall with both swig and verrazano - seems neither is actively maintained and already somewhat out of date with cffi's struct declarations...
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2014-11-10T11:52:26Z Grue`: rick-monster: cffi-grovel?
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2014-11-10T11:55:41Z rick-monster: ok, so as usual with lisp it's a case of RTFM rather than going trawling the internet for a quick fix
2014-11-10T11:55:55Z rick-monster: thanks Grue I will try using cffi's built-in tool
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2014-11-10T12:00:38Z dim: so, I know some SBCL hackers here wanted an easy to reproduce my heap exhausted bugs: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/123
2014-11-10T12:01:42Z dim: you need a postgresql instance, a database, a table as defined in http://www.postgresql.org/docs/devel/static/sql-copy.html and the pgloader command file (including the data) at http://amutu.com/blog/public_stage/conf
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2014-11-10T12:01:55Z dim: of course last I tried I couldn't reproduce the problem
2014-11-10T12:02:00Z dim: and I'm no SBCL hacker to go fix it, either
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2014-11-10T13:55:47Z rick-monster: grue: cffi-grovel is not giving much joy. All 3 tools I've tried seem to have trouble dealing with nested struct /unions
2014-11-10T13:57:34Z rick-monster: no idea if I'm expecting too much of these libs...
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2014-11-10T13:59:32Z rick-monster: on the other hand transposing struct definitions from C to lisp by hand seems tedious and error-prone...
2014-11-10T14:01:38Z H4ns: c is tedious and error prone in the first place, so what do you expect?
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2014-11-10T14:04:46Z rick-monster: well verranzano seemed to come very close to being smart enough to do the donkey work...
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2014-11-10T14:53:10Z eudoxia: when using prove, the test framework, has anyone else gotten a weird package error?
2014-11-10T14:53:19Z eudoxia: e.g. when doing (asdf:test-system :quri)
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2014-11-10T14:53:47Z dlowe: are you running the tests from your system definition?
2014-11-10T14:54:13Z eudoxia: no, that's not it, if i understand what you mean
2014-11-10T14:54:24Z dlowe: How are the tests being executed?
2014-11-10T14:54:28Z eudoxia: ie there's no (quri-test:run-tests) in the system definition
2014-11-10T14:55:21Z eudoxia: the test framework is called just fine, that's not the problem, the problem is i get this error later on
2014-11-10T14:55:33Z eudoxia: >The name :|PROVE.REPORTER.list| does not designate any package.
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2014-11-10T14:55:51Z dlowe: Is there a backtrace?
2014-11-10T14:57:21Z eudoxia: yes, but it's not very useful. i'm certain it's a bug in prove and was wondering if it was just me.
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2014-11-10T15:03:13Z stassats: ecraven: commonqt now has enum-equal
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2014-11-10T15:06:52Z ecraven: stassats: perfect!
2014-11-10T15:07:13Z ecraven: stassats: would you mind explaining in a few sentences how commonqt actually works? smoke isn't a C binding you can use via an ffi, right?
2014-11-10T15:07:18Z ecraven: it's still c++, as far as I understand?
2014-11-10T15:07:55Z stassats: smoke sucks
2014-11-10T15:08:07Z stassats: so, i don't want to explain it, i want to get rid of it
2014-11-10T15:09:42Z Shinmera: While we're on the topic of CQt, I was digging through the source lately and on the NEW macro it mentions "old style new for compat reasons" in a comment. What would the new style be?
2014-11-10T15:09:59Z stassats: #_new
2014-11-10T15:10:04Z Shinmera: Ah, alright.
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2014-11-10T15:10:33Z Shinmera: I think the example code still uses the new macro.
2014-11-10T15:10:46Z eudoxia: someone, preferably not me, should add C++ binding generation support to cl-autowrap
2014-11-10T15:11:41Z stassats: now, wait, #_new is a different thing
2014-11-10T15:12:38Z Shinmera: stassats: In my initialize-instance method I should use NEW, not #_new, right?
2014-11-10T15:12:53Z stassats: right
2014-11-10T15:13:03Z Shinmera: So the comment is confusing then
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2014-11-10T15:16:02Z stassats: removed it
2014-11-10T15:17:08Z stassats: and the only point of its existence is because you may want to call the constructor with some arguments
2014-11-10T15:17:22Z ecraven: stassats: how would you get rid of it? would it be possible to directly interface with c++ code?
2014-11-10T15:17:39Z stassats: ecraven: the idea is still the same, but better executed
2014-11-10T15:17:43Z Shinmera: stassats: Yeah, Qtools wasn't handling that case properly so I went to look around that part and discovered the comment.
2014-11-10T15:19:00Z eudoxia: you know what would be a cool experiment? running clang -> emscripten -> cl-javascript
2014-11-10T15:19:11Z eudoxia: on windows, don't have gcc and need to compile sqlite? no problem
2014-11-10T15:19:26Z stassats: "right"
2014-11-10T15:19:52Z eudoxia: or clang -> llc with c output -> vacietis
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2014-11-10T15:20:32Z ecraven: stassats: how would you get the name mangling and custom calling conventions? just re-implement a "c++ compiler"?
2014-11-10T15:20:50Z stassats: still using the c++ compiler
2014-11-10T15:21:21Z stassats: what it does it creates C stubs for all methods
2014-11-10T15:22:36Z stassats: a c++ interfacer would be a good idea, but for some another era
2014-11-10T15:23:07Z ecraven: ah, so you automatically create extern "C" stubs for everything?
2014-11-10T15:23:12Z ecraven: and then use those with the ffi?
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2014-11-10T15:24:05Z stassats: it's a bit more complicated than that, but something like that
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2014-11-10T15:25:21Z ecraven: sounds very hard :)
2014-11-10T15:25:51Z stassats: not really, if drmeister's clasp can do the C++ parsing bit
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2014-11-10T15:29:26Z ecraven: ah, good point, never thought of that
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2014-11-10T16:06:49Z drmeister: stassats: Clasp can do the C++ parsing bit.
2014-11-10T16:07:15Z drmeister: We should talk about it sometime - that part of Clasp is ready.
2014-11-10T16:08:47Z drmeister: Although until we try it I can't say how ready.   I do parse >170 C++ files and extract a Common Lisp representation of every class/struct and then analyze those representations several ways to generate an interface to the MPS garbage collector.
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2014-11-10T16:09:24Z drmeister: It's a pretty stringent test of Clasp's C++ parsing/analysis capabilities.
2014-11-10T16:12:28Z dlowe: We will truly have arrived when it can parse glibc headers
2014-11-10T16:13:48Z drmeister: Which specific header files are those?
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2014-11-10T16:14:43Z troydm: say I have a local .asdf package (to be specific cl-llvm) and I want it to install using quicklisp not from repository but from my local directory, how do I do that?
2014-11-10T16:14:58Z troydm: I'm asking a noob question sorry
2014-11-10T16:15:06Z stassats: put it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2014-11-10T16:15:09Z Xach: troydm: one easy way is to put it in ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2014-11-10T16:15:13Z drmeister: I'm not up on specifically what files are the glibc headers but if they are included by normal C++ files then I'm already parsing them.
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2014-11-10T16:15:18Z Xach: troydm: that and other questions are in the faq, for what it's worth.
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2014-11-10T16:16:22Z dlowe: drmeister: I'm thinking of generating groveled interfaces for the entirety of posix
2014-11-10T16:16:44Z troydm: Xach: ahh, thx, found it
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2014-11-10T16:17:38Z drmeister: Clasp is parsing C++ files that have been run through the C preprocessor - they are hundreds of thousands of lines long due to the huge number of transitive includes that happen as a normal course of compiling C++ code.   Odds are, if it's a standard header file then Clasp has already parsed it.
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2014-11-10T16:20:01Z dlowe: interesting. The next step is making sense of the insanity :D
2014-11-10T16:20:15Z drmeister: Technically Clasp doesn't do the parsing, it's clang that does the parsing and Clasp accesses the generated AST.
2014-11-10T16:20:25Z dlowe: true
2014-11-10T16:20:38Z dlowe: either way, an AST gets into a common lisp program.
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2014-11-10T16:20:50Z Xach: in that case, i have a tiny lisp program that implements a linux kernel
2014-11-10T16:21:01Z dlowe: Xach: I bet it's non-portable
2014-11-10T16:21:26Z drmeister: Clasp exposes the clang ASTMatcher library - it lets you write CL code that does pattern recognition on the AST and pull out features.
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2014-11-10T16:37:53Z antonv: When one does (ql:quickload :drakma), how can it happen that CFFI was loaded from /usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-cffi/cffi.asd instead of Quicklisp?
2014-11-10T16:38:08Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2014-11-10T16:39:14Z p_l: antonv: if for some reason the system (.ASD) file for CFFI in the /u/s/c-l/…/cffi.asd was earlier than the quicklisp handler in ASDF search order
2014-11-10T16:40:03Z antonv: p_l, yes, but how it got there? The directory ~/.config/common-lisp/ is absent. Where else ASDF picks up configuration?
2014-11-10T16:40:17Z p_l: antonv: /etc/
2014-11-10T16:40:22Z p_l: iirc
2014-11-10T16:40:32Z Grue`: asdf has some dirs set up by default
2014-11-10T16:40:43Z luis: The list is big! http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems.html
2014-11-10T16:40:44Z p_l: and that path looks a bit like common-lisp-controller or gentoo
2014-11-10T16:41:19Z luis: antonv: http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configurations.html#Configurations
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2014-11-10T16:44:21Z Xach: antonv: any system visible via the asdf source registry is loaded in preference to the quicklisp-provided system
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2014-11-10T16:45:34Z antonv: luis: thanks
2014-11-10T16:45:50Z antonv: Xach: yes, I just tried to remember how ASDF config is populated
2014-11-10T16:46:04Z beach: Xach: And where does Quicklisp put its systems so that ASDF can see them?
2014-11-10T16:47:27Z Xach: beach: It has a special function at the end of asdf:*system-definition-search-functions* that knows how to translate a system name to a pathname in the quicklisp directory tree.
2014-11-10T16:47:42Z Xach: It does not use the source registry system.
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2014-11-10T16:47:53Z beach: I see.  Thanks.
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2014-11-10T17:03:51Z luis: I have a LOOP question. In this example (loop for x = ... and y = ...) using AND is useful if you need to look at the value of X in the previous iteration when computing Y. Is AND ever useful when using FOR ... IN rather than FOR ... =?
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2014-11-10T17:10:14Z stassats: reordering usually gives the previous value as well
2014-11-10T17:10:50Z stassats: don't think i've ever used it
2014-11-10T17:11:00Z stassats: can say the same about psetf
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2014-11-10T17:17:02Z luis: stassats: right. But my point is, when using FOR ... IN there's no previous value to look at.
2014-11-10T17:17:19Z luis: stassats: the IN form is evaluated only once, in the loop prelude.
2014-11-10T17:17:44Z stassats: but the variable isn't bound to that value
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2014-11-10T17:18:53Z luis: I don't follow
2014-11-10T17:20:12Z stassats: that's not what AND is about
2014-11-10T17:20:55Z luis: Hmm, maybe I can rephrase my question. Can anyone come up with an example where (loop for i in ... for j in ... do ...) yields different output from (loop for i in ... and j in ... do ...)?
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2014-11-10T17:22:29Z stassats: AND only makes sense when you reference the variable in another variable's form
2014-11-10T17:22:48Z stassats: and it's only required when they mutually reference each other
2014-11-10T17:23:18Z luis: stassats: right. And why would you reference I in the initialisation form of J?
2014-11-10T17:23:39Z luis: Oh.. You might have an I outside the LOOP.
2014-11-10T17:24:00Z stassats: I is usually bound before iteration happens
2014-11-10T17:24:08Z luis: it's bound to NIL, though.
2014-11-10T17:24:10Z stassats: but, you may have FOR IN together with FOR =
2014-11-10T17:24:23Z luis: good point.
2014-11-10T17:24:30Z stassats: but, as i said, since only one form references one another, AND is not required
2014-11-10T17:24:40Z stassats: as you can just reorder them
2014-11-10T17:24:43Z luis: Sure, I understand that.
2014-11-10T17:25:01Z luis: Anyway, you've answered my question. Thanks! :)
2014-11-10T17:25:02Z stassats: so, right, with FOR IN AND doesn't make much sense
2014-11-10T17:25:12Z stassats: and it rarely does anyway
2014-11-10T17:25:41Z stassats: it makes sense when you do "with x and y", since AND is shorter than WITH
2014-11-10T17:25:54Z stassats: (if you're into that kind of thing)
2014-11-10T17:26:13Z luis: into saving characters? meh. :)
2014-11-10T17:26:21Z stassats: well, code golfing
2014-11-10T17:26:43Z luis: certainly not at my day job :)
2014-11-10T17:27:32Z stassats: well, whaddayaknow, i just came up with a shorter variant "loop with(x y)"
2014-11-10T17:27:53Z stassats: and since ) is a terminating macro character, you can save on a space after it too
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2014-11-10T17:30:09Z luis: Uff.. How did you find that out? That syntax is not apparent to me from reading the spec.
2014-11-10T17:30:44Z jasom: luis: destructuring
2014-11-10T17:30:52Z jasom: loop has a limited form of destructuring
2014-11-10T17:30:53Z stassats: var::= d-var-spec , d-var-spec::= simple-var | nil | (d-var-spec . d-var-spec)
2014-11-10T17:31:11Z stassats: with-clause::= with var1
2014-11-10T17:31:38Z luis: I see.
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2014-11-10T17:56:29Z goglosh: ugh.. I'm really excited about learning lisp but I'm still operaing in the C mindset
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2014-11-10T17:57:02Z beach: goglosh: It will change eventually.
2014-11-10T17:57:05Z goglosh: not the imperative mindset but the "is it useful?" thing
2014-11-10T17:57:37Z goglosh: so far, my creativity is still heading towards implementing an interpreter in C :/
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2014-11-10T17:57:52Z stassats: that's the worst project
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2014-11-10T17:58:12Z drmeister: Hello beach - in fits and starts I'm getting :cleavir-environment up and running.
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2014-11-10T17:58:30Z beach: drmeister: Great!
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2014-11-10T17:59:39Z freehck: hello everybody
2014-11-10T17:59:41Z goglosh: anyway, as a starting point, how do I interact with the unix enviroment from within lisp?
2014-11-10T17:59:44Z goglosh: clisp
2014-11-10T17:59:57Z beach: hello freehck.
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2014-11-10T18:00:06Z goglosh: hi
2014-11-10T18:00:35Z antonv: gogolush: forget C and come into the beautiful world of Lisp
2014-11-10T18:00:45Z antonv: goglosh: you can open files using most often by WITH-OPEN-FILE
2014-11-10T18:01:48Z beach: goglosh: Do you really mean CLISP, the implementation of Common Lisp?
2014-11-10T18:02:13Z beach: goglosh: I am asking because it is a common mistake to write CLISP to mean Common Lisp.
2014-11-10T18:02:21Z oGMo: goglosh: depends on what you mean by "the unix environment", but there are interfaces to various posix things; files as pointed out are built in; etc
2014-11-10T18:02:42Z stassats: minion: cffi?
2014-11-10T18:02:43Z minion: cffi: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/cffi
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2014-11-10T18:03:02Z freehck: It's written in CLHS that the result of require and provide is dependant of implementation. I realise that by interpreter SBCL seems to import symbols into some standard package when I do f.e. `(require "alexandria")'.
2014-11-10T18:03:22Z deego: Hi. I've been asked several times over the last 15 yrs to make fsbot hang out in #lisp but never got around to it. Is there another bot here atm?
2014-11-10T18:03:27Z stassats: SBCL is not an interpreter, though
2014-11-10T18:03:31Z freehck: Is it a common behaviour or it's specific only for SBCL
2014-11-10T18:03:41Z beach: minion: Are you a bot?
2014-11-10T18:03:42Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2014-11-10T18:03:48Z l3thal: haha
2014-11-10T18:03:51Z deego: lol
2014-11-10T18:03:52Z goglosh: beach: yeah I actually mean CLISP but I should be more general and say Common Lisp I guess
2014-11-10T18:03:57Z freehck: stassats: but it could be.
2014-11-10T18:04:06Z stassats: what is fsbot?
2014-11-10T18:04:06Z fsbot: [->] erbot is, like, [0/6] An ERC (i.e. Emacs) based IRC infobot <http://emacswiki.org/wiki/ErBot>, Current source is at http://www.gnufans.net/~fsbot/erbot/erbot/
2014-11-10T18:04:06Z fsbot: [1] the program of which fsbot is an instance (see <fsbot> and <help>),
2014-11-10T18:04:07Z fsbot: [2] See ,data for my knowledge database. See ,owner for owners to PM in case of problems.,
2014-11-10T18:04:07Z fsbot: [3] see ,data for the URL of my knowledge database, ..[Type ,more]
2014-11-10T18:04:07Z deego: minion: (+ 1 1)
2014-11-10T18:04:07Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 26 seconds is too many.
2014-11-10T18:04:08Z freehck: beach: yes, it's bot.
2014-11-10T18:04:12Z goglosh: damn I guess I gotta catch the lisp mindset rather than the unix/c mindset
2014-11-10T18:04:47Z luis: minion: CFFI?
2014-11-10T18:04:48Z minion: CFFI: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/CFFI
2014-11-10T18:04:55Z luis: Hmm. Bad bot, bad bot.
2014-11-10T18:05:01Z stassats: luis: no, it's good
2014-11-10T18:05:05Z deego: stassats: pm him and feed him lisp expressions..
2014-11-10T18:05:12Z stassats: luis: cliki is just broken
2014-11-10T18:05:34Z stassats: deego: i don't think #lisp needs any other bots
2014-11-10T18:05:40Z deego: ok
2014-11-10T18:05:48Z stassats: luis: and since nobody runs it, nobody can fix it
2014-11-10T18:06:18Z antonv: how is cliki broken?
2014-11-10T18:06:29Z stassats: ?source doesn't work anymore
2014-11-10T18:06:32Z beach: deego: fsbot does not seem to understand Common Lisp, the topic of this channel.
2014-11-10T18:06:44Z deego: yup, which is why I never brought him here :)
2014-11-10T18:06:53Z fsbot left #lisp
2014-11-10T18:07:26Z antonv: stassats: vsedach was maintaining cliki, have you tried to inform him?
2014-11-10T18:07:42Z stassats: yes
2014-11-10T18:07:58Z stassats: i delegated that to someone else
2014-11-10T18:08:04Z stassats: https://github.com/archimag/cliki2/issues/16
2014-11-10T18:08:23Z beach: goglosh: Right.  There is so much interesting stuff in Common Lisp before you need to interact with the Unix environment.
2014-11-10T18:09:10Z beach: goglosh: The object system for instance is great.
2014-11-10T18:09:18Z antonv: stassats: vsedach and archimag wrote cliki2 together, but I understood that vsedache remained the maintainer
2014-11-10T18:09:22Z stassats: antonv: and i'm not interested in doing anything more, so, i delegate the task of getting ?source to work to whomever feels like it
2014-11-10T18:10:01Z stassats: or if it becomes any other form of url, i will happily change what minion looks up
2014-11-10T18:10:08Z stassats: but that's it
2014-11-10T18:10:54Z antonv: stassats: I think this repo - https://github.com/vsedach/cliki2 - is more official
2014-11-10T18:10:54Z antonv: But unfortunately no issue tracker enabled there...
2014-11-10T18:11:22Z stassats: i can appoint you to deal with it, if you want
2014-11-10T18:11:29Z stassats: or rather, you can appoint yourself
2014-11-10T18:12:11Z antonv: stassats: hanks for your trust, but I don't know that ?source is
2014-11-10T18:12:21Z stassats: it's pretty self explanatory
2014-11-10T18:12:22Z antonv: Isn't it something that ASDF install used previously?
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2014-11-10T18:17:17Z Xach: antonv: I believe it showed the wiki markup of the page.
2014-11-10T18:18:00Z stassats: it should be super trivial to implement, if you know this restas thing, that is
2014-11-10T18:20:28Z theseb: besides eval is there another way to "eval" something twice....here's the context.....imagine you need to use up the 1st eval to *build* the sexp with an append .e.g. ,(append 'or (rest args))
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2014-11-10T18:20:42Z antonv: Xach: thanks, I understand now it is an URL parameter. I initially thought stassas means some markup element
2014-11-10T18:20:52Z theseb: now that you built the (or A B C D ...) how get is eval'd !?!?!
2014-11-10T18:21:52Z antonv: stassats: At least I see vsedach is responding to some issues at https://github.com/archimag/cliki2/issues/, so he'll probably answer someday
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2014-11-10T18:23:03Z theseb: s/get is/get it
2014-11-10T18:23:21Z stassats: theseb: your question is not understandable
2014-11-10T18:23:54Z stassats: antonv: i'm happy with the "No definition was found in the first 5 lines of" line
2014-11-10T18:24:06Z theseb: stassats: ok...let me try one more time... suppose your macro has this somewhere... ,(append 'or (rest args)) because you need to *build* an or sexp
2014-11-10T18:24:18Z stassats: so, people who are not happy with it should take action, the fastest way would be to write a patch and to poke somebody who actually runs cliki
2014-11-10T18:24:24Z theseb: stassats: actually ,(append 'or (rest args))
2014-11-10T18:25:07Z theseb: stassats: it had to eval'd to *build* the or expression...so how make macro eval the or expression?
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2014-11-10T18:25:41Z stassats: what does it matter if it's a macro or not?
2014-11-10T18:25:44Z theseb: stassats: i'm thinking (eval 'or (rest args)) but i heard evals aren't recommended
2014-11-10T18:25:49Z theseb: stassats: i guess it doesn't
2014-11-10T18:25:54Z stassats: and what does it matter where the backqoute is?
2014-11-10T18:26:04Z theseb: stassats: the meta question is HOW EVAL SOMETHING MORE THAN ONCE?
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2014-11-10T18:26:16Z stassats: backqoute doesn't evaluate anything
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2014-11-10T18:26:44Z stassats: and especially twice
2014-11-10T18:26:46Z theseb: sorry...i wasn't yelling...i'm just
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2014-11-10T18:26:53Z theseb: told on the internet you need to make yourself heard
2014-11-10T18:26:56Z stassats: well, i still don't get your question
2014-11-10T18:27:12Z theseb: stassats: how eval something more than once?
2014-11-10T18:27:16Z theseb: start with that
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2014-11-10T18:27:23Z theseb: stassats: w/o using eval explicitly?
2014-11-10T18:27:37Z stassats: i don't understand
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2014-11-10T18:28:26Z stassats: seriously, i have no idea what you mean by that
2014-11-10T18:28:28Z pjb: beach: The above exchange makes me think that perhaps it would be useful for students to prepare them accounts that log directly into a CL implementation.  Tell them they have an account on a lisp machine :-)  (But do they still use mainframes at universities?)
2014-11-10T18:29:00Z stassats: theseb: can you describe what you're doing?
2014-11-10T18:29:06Z stassats: and not your solution
2014-11-10T18:29:20Z theseb: stassats: ok..i'm trying to write a macro to implement logical or
2014-11-10T18:29:58Z stassats: well, that's trivial
2014-11-10T18:30:09Z theseb: stassats: here's what i got so far.. http://pastebin.com/ABgwSi84
2014-11-10T18:30:15Z stassats: except i think you don't mean logical or, logior
2014-11-10T18:30:20Z stassats: but cl:or
2014-11-10T18:30:24Z theseb: stassats: ok
2014-11-10T18:30:37Z theseb: stassats: i'm stuck on the ,(add_elem 'or (rest args))
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2014-11-10T18:30:50Z theseb: stassats: ignore the add_elem ...it is a command to prepend an element to a list
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2014-11-10T18:31:03Z stassats: well, can you implement (or a b)?
2014-11-10T18:31:08Z stassats: how can you write it using IF?
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2014-11-10T18:31:19Z theseb: stassats: (if a true false)
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2014-11-10T18:31:38Z theseb: stassats: (i'm writing my own lisp so the syntax is a tad different from CL)
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2014-11-10T18:31:42Z stassats: and actually (or a b)?
2014-11-10T18:31:50Z stassats: well, i can only help with CL, so, bear with me
2014-11-10T18:32:08Z theseb: (if a a b)
2014-11-10T18:32:28Z theseb: (if a 1 (if b 1 nil))
2014-11-10T18:32:30Z pjb: (or (aref a (incf i)) b) ?
2014-11-10T18:32:32Z stassats: well, you're evaluating A twice, but ok
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2014-11-10T18:32:48Z theseb: stassats: yes (if a 1 b)
2014-11-10T18:32:53Z stassats: theseb: so, what's (or a b c)?
2014-11-10T18:33:04Z theseb: stassats: nested ifs
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2014-11-10T18:33:08Z stassats: right
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2014-11-10T18:33:20Z theseb: stassats: but didn't how to build it for arbitrary number of args
2014-11-10T18:33:22Z stassats: but, we can cheat and transform (or a b c) to (or a (or b c))
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2014-11-10T18:33:37Z theseb: yes
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2014-11-10T18:34:17Z theseb: stassats: on a side note...factorial is the common example in books to explain recursion....so i thought something like factorial would work...with a nice if and some recursion
2014-11-10T18:34:35Z stassats: so, just expand into `(if ,<gensymed-a> ,<gensymed-a> (or ,@(cdr rest)))
2014-11-10T18:34:37Z theseb: stassats: that's the motivation for my pastebin
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2014-11-10T18:35:14Z theseb: stassats: nice! and yesterday you showed how to implement ,@ which i did!!!
2014-11-10T18:35:42Z theseb: stassats: didn't you mean (rest cdr) instead of (cdr rest) ?
2014-11-10T18:35:56Z theseb: oh wait n/m
2014-11-10T18:35:58Z stassats: not really
2014-11-10T18:36:19Z theseb: i *LOVE* ,@ now
2014-11-10T18:36:23Z theseb: it seems to show up everywhere
2014-11-10T18:37:27Z theseb: stassats: that is soo cool how you come up with this stuff soo fast
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2014-11-10T18:38:09Z theseb: stassats: btw..your solution is a macro within a macro for extra coolness...it is almost scary cool.
2014-11-10T18:38:18Z theseb: recursive macros....crazy
2014-11-10T18:38:33Z stassats: it's simple, if you think about it
2014-11-10T18:38:45Z stassats: you can do it without using recursion, but it's much easier that way
2014-11-10T18:39:47Z stassats: it's not like (defun car (list) (car list))
2014-11-10T18:40:06Z stassats: (that's from sbcl)
2014-11-10T18:40:20Z theseb: nice
2014-11-10T18:40:42Z stassats: it looks confusing because it's not implementation of CAR, but of #'CAR
2014-11-10T18:41:03Z stassats: CAR is implemented elsewhere, but you still need #'CAR to pass around
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2014-11-10T18:41:27Z theseb: your mind bending example reminds me of let over lambda i was perusing yesterday.....
2014-11-10T18:41:43Z theseb: mind bending is good sometimes
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2014-11-10T19:29:20Z micahjam97: what do you guys think of like a Perl CPAN website but for CL
2014-11-10T19:29:42Z stassats: "meh"
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2014-11-10T19:30:26Z Xach: micahjam97: what would that have on it?
2014-11-10T19:30:51Z micahjam97: Xach do you know what the CPAN is?
2014-11-10T19:30:53Z stassats: defclass* star variants, naturally
2014-11-10T19:31:26Z micahjam97: Basically, it's a central location for Perl modules
2014-11-10T19:31:26Z Xach: micahjam97: Yes. Not very familiar with the website.
2014-11-10T19:31:45Z Xach: micahjam97: quickdocs.org is approximately like that for common lisp.
2014-11-10T19:32:29Z micahjam97: Xach: well, wadoya know
2014-11-10T19:33:24Z pjb: micahjam97: Xach thought quicklisp would be useful, so he made it.  Why don't you write a Lisp CPAN, if you find it useful?
2014-11-10T19:33:25Z Xach: as little as possible
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2014-11-10T19:33:50Z a20141110: Xach: who took over the mainteinership of quickdocs.org ?
2014-11-10T19:34:12Z Xach: a20141110: I don't think anything like that has happened. As far as I know it is maintained by the people who created it.
2014-11-10T19:34:35Z a20141110: Xach: I thought I read somewhere they were looking for someone to take over the maintenance of the project
2014-11-10T19:34:35Z micahjam97: I thought it would have been a great idea to set up a place where people can put up their Lisp modules. You know, like, to make it easy to find what you're looking for.
2014-11-10T19:34:49Z Xach: a20141110: Oh. I do not know about that.
2014-11-10T19:35:00Z pjb: micahjam97: then DO IT!
2014-11-10T19:35:01Z Xach: micahjam97: The situation could certainly be improved a lot.
2014-11-10T19:35:22Z pjb: micahjam97: for example, while it's minimal, there's a level of redtape in the quicklisp process.
2014-11-10T19:35:24Z stassats: you can pop up in #lisp and ask
2014-11-10T19:35:34Z a20141110: micahjam97: at this point the community hasn't picked a single URL for hosting all of the packages, so quicklisp is a curated way of doing that and Xach handles that every month
2014-11-10T19:35:39Z stassats: you can tap into the collective brain of all the #lispers
2014-11-10T19:35:43Z stassats: no machine can replicate that
2014-11-10T19:35:54Z micahjam97: Anybody into web design that would like to help build it?
2014-11-10T19:35:57Z pjb: micahjam97: Ideally, you'd want  just a world writable git repository for all the libraries.
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2014-11-10T19:36:16Z Xach: That sounds like a recipe for "like cliki, but worse"
2014-11-10T19:36:16Z drewc: we should call it cCLan!
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2014-11-10T19:36:29Z micahjam97: pjb: you're probably right
2014-11-10T19:36:33Z stassats: Xach: that's a challenge
2014-11-10T19:36:42Z Xach: stassats: i should have added ", if possible"
2014-11-10T19:36:56Z a20141110: micahjam97: it comes down to time, but yeah a central place (like cliki.net) was supposed to be would be best, then Xach can focus on simply providing more ways to pick/choose/validate libraries instead of having to chase them down, but we are not there yet
2014-11-10T19:37:28Z drewc: imagine we had a way to install an ASDF system via cliki?! ;)
2014-11-10T19:37:30Z micahjam97: Xach: wait, aren't the one who wrote Practical Common Lisp?
2014-11-10T19:37:35Z Xach: micahjam97: no
2014-11-10T19:38:06Z stassats: just _on_ Practical Common Lisp
2014-11-10T19:38:09Z Xach: My name is on the cover, but I did not write it.
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2014-11-10T19:38:21Z drewc: "that book is dead sexy"
2014-11-10T19:38:52Z micahjam97: Xach: at the top of the book it says 'that book is dead sexy - Xach on #lisp', so I guess that's just a quote
2014-11-10T19:38:59Z stassats: that's why they don't allow it in kindergartens
2014-11-10T19:39:14Z Xach: has pcl been out 10 years now?
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2014-11-10T19:39:24Z p_l: ... I think so
2014-11-10T19:39:28Z drewc: Xach: yup.
2014-11-10T19:39:37Z p_l: could use a bit of 2e
2014-11-10T19:39:39Z Xach: google suggests 2005. that doesn't seem right.
2014-11-10T19:39:45Z drewc: Xach: or at least, the pre-edition was there 10 years ago....
2014-11-10T19:39:56Z drewc: published ... I am not sure.
2014-11-10T19:39:57Z Xach: i guess early 2005 is right.
2014-11-10T19:40:12Z drewc: makes sense.
2014-11-10T19:40:19Z Xach: the minion blurb still says "and it's now available in print", like it is fresh news
2014-11-10T19:40:43Z stassats: well, it's still now
2014-11-10T19:40:43Z micahjam97: well, anyway, along withe CPAN site, there is a command line tool called cpan that pretty installs the specified module. That'd be cool
2014-11-10T19:40:43Z Xach: the same crack freshness powering www.lisp.org
2014-11-10T19:40:55Z drewc: micahjam97: on the front page of quicklisp, it says "Quicklisp is exactly the system I would have built. — Drew Crampsie" ... I am not the author of QL, that is a quote.
2014-11-10T19:41:04Z Xach: micahjam97: quicklisp does something like that.
2014-11-10T19:41:19Z Xach: i think the experience is better than cpan in some respects
2014-11-10T19:42:02Z Xach: minion: tell me about pcl
2014-11-10T19:42:02Z minion: Xach: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-11-10T19:42:03Z drewc: I agree with Xach ... cCLan , asdf-install .... not so great. QL, OTOH, is wonderful IMHO.
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2014-11-10T19:42:25Z Xach: Still such a long way to go and so little time!
2014-11-10T19:42:35Z Xach: Better than it was, though.
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2014-11-10T19:43:22Z drewc: much better than the darcs repo I had for libraries that my application used/uses.
2014-11-10T19:43:24Z stassats: as of 10 November 2014 would be more correct
2014-11-10T19:43:30Z stassats: or is it not available anymore?
2014-11-10T19:43:40Z stassats: otherwise "since 11 April 2005"
2014-11-10T19:44:27Z stassats: or, who cares about the date
2014-11-10T19:44:48Z Xach: it was useful before 11 april 2005
2014-11-10T19:44:51Z Xach: not so useful now
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2014-11-10T19:47:01Z a20141110: Xach: I have been thinking more and more about http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2011-May/058768.html
2014-11-10T19:47:38Z a20141110: this would be different from a module repository, but we could still create an "SQL VIEW" like "package where multiple bundles of functions could be imported
2014-11-10T19:48:15Z Xach will check it out in a while - must run
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2014-11-10T20:01:34Z helluvabutler: I'm pretty new to CL and I was wondering wether there was a way to access individual items from a list like instead of saying (cadr '(chicken cow cat)) you can say (item '(chicken cow cat) 2) or something to get the second item
2014-11-10T20:01:44Z Bike: nth, elt
2014-11-10T20:03:43Z pjb: helluvabutler: however, notice that nth and elt applied on a list are O(n), therefore in general you don't want to process the list that way.
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2014-11-10T20:04:21Z helluvabutler: what is nth and elt
2014-11-10T20:04:22Z Grue`: i was about to post "though you might as well start using arrays if you need to access nth element often" but pjb beat me to it
2014-11-10T20:04:23Z helluvabutler: ??
2014-11-10T20:04:34Z Bike: helluvabutler: functions that do as you said
2014-11-10T20:04:37Z Bike: clhs elt
2014-11-10T20:04:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_elt.htm
2014-11-10T20:04:38Z Bike: clhs nth
2014-11-10T20:04:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm
2014-11-10T20:05:47Z helluvabutler: okay, thanks
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2014-11-10T20:47:18Z freehck: Hey, guys, I'm so happy. I've compelled to work my first system. )
2014-11-10T20:47:31Z freehck: Going forward.
2014-11-10T20:48:08Z freehck: Hm... To hack or not to hack? What is the question.
2014-11-10T20:48:20Z freehck: It's midnight now and time to sleep.
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2014-11-10T20:49:25Z Xach: Midnight is also a good time to do the hacks
2014-11-10T20:49:47Z pnpuff: Hello #lisp world!  ;-)
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2014-11-10T20:50:45Z freehck: And could I make a one little suggestion
2014-11-10T20:50:45Z freehck: That I could diving more and more deep?
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2014-11-10T20:51:02Z freehck: pnpuff: thanks
2014-11-10T20:51:29Z stassats: more code, less talk
2014-11-10T20:51:51Z freehck: Oh, shit. I understand that not deep but deeply...
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2014-11-10T20:52:05Z freehck: Bad english = bad poetry.
2014-11-10T20:52:11Z freehck: Must hack, BB! )
2014-11-10T20:53:17Z freehck: hm... or not deeply, but deep?
2014-11-10T20:53:23Z freehck: more deep = deeply in english?
2014-11-10T20:53:36Z freehck: (=? "more deep" "deeply")
2014-11-10T20:54:55Z jasom: deeper
2014-11-10T20:55:04Z freehck: thanks.
2014-11-10T20:56:04Z jasom: or "more deeply" for an adverb form
2014-11-10T20:56:41Z freehck: ugu... got.
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2014-11-10T20:57:33Z micahjam97: minion: defvar
2014-11-10T20:57:33Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``defvar''.
2014-11-10T20:57:45Z jasom: clhs defvar
2014-11-10T20:57:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2014-11-10T20:57:46Z micahjam97: minion: defparameter
2014-11-10T20:57:46Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``defparameter''.
2014-11-10T20:58:37Z freehck: clhs defparameter
2014-11-10T20:58:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
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2014-11-10T21:13:15Z micahjam97: I'm learning Lisp with PCL. Is the content in it still relevant today, even though it was like 9 years ago?
2014-11-10T21:13:32Z Krystof: yes
2014-11-10T21:13:32Z H4ns: micahjam97: yes.  although you should learn about quicklisp online.
2014-11-10T21:13:59Z H4ns: micahjam97: pcl was written before quicklisp, and thus does not know how easy it is to install third-party libraries using it.
2014-11-10T21:15:03Z micahjam97: okay then, that's all I needed to know
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2014-11-10T21:27:36Z freehck: and about asdf too, micahjam97
2014-11-10T21:28:02Z micahjam97: what;s asdf?
2014-11-10T21:28:48Z freehck: it's a way to pack your code and distribute it
2014-11-10T21:29:23Z freehck: minion: asdf
2014-11-10T21:29:23Z minion: asdf: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/asdf
2014-11-10T21:29:29Z freehck: hm...
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2014-11-10T21:31:05Z freehck: micahjam97: anyway, quicklisp is a wrapper for asdf.
2014-11-10T21:31:43Z freehck: if you know quicklisp, you can easily download and install libraries.
2014-11-10T21:31:55Z freehck: if you know asdf, you can create these libraries
2014-11-10T21:32:03Z micahjam97: so like what cpan is to perl?
2014-11-10T21:32:09Z freehck: yep
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2014-11-10T21:32:40Z micahjam97: okay then
2014-11-10T21:32:54Z freehck: micahjam97: but be careful with my advice. )
2014-11-10T21:33:02Z pnpuff: yes...more or less like cpanminus
2014-11-10T21:33:04Z micahjam97: why?
2014-11-10T21:33:43Z freehck: micahjam97: I'm learning CL for a second day. (except three years with Racket Scheme and Emacs Lisp)
2014-11-10T21:33:54Z H4ns: freehck: asdf is like make.  it is not a means to "pack and distribute code".
2014-11-10T21:34:16Z micahjam97: freehck: I'm on my thrid
2014-11-10T21:34:50Z freehck: H4ns: and what make does in your opinion?
2014-11-10T21:35:08Z freehck: *does make do
2014-11-10T21:35:24Z Bicyclid1ne: well, it doesn't pack or distribute anything, generally. makes distributions easier to use, though.
2014-11-10T21:35:38Z H4ns: make is a build tool.
2014-11-10T21:36:27Z freehck: Bicyclid1ne: and what about asdf-install?
2014-11-10T21:36:43Z Bicyclid1ne: i don't want to think about asdf-install, and it's not part of asdf anyway
2014-11-10T21:36:47Z H4ns: freehck: asdf-install is obsoleted by quicklisp
2014-11-10T21:36:52Z freehck: truely?
2014-11-10T21:36:56Z Bicyclid1ne: really and surely
2014-11-10T21:37:06Z freehck: cool
2014-11-10T21:37:10Z Shinmera: Truly, totally, completely and hopefully forever.
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2014-11-10T21:37:35Z Bicyclid1ne: the way asdf-install worked, iirc, was it would look up a particular address on cliki and find a tarball, which it would download.
2014-11-10T21:37:57Z H4ns: please, let it rest in peace :D
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2014-11-10T21:39:28Z freehck: Okay, so let's just formulate accurately what definitely ASDF is.
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2014-11-10T21:39:49Z H4ns: asdf is a build tool, like make
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2014-11-10T21:41:08Z freehck: Maybe it would be more sane to say that it's a description of order to load packages?
2014-11-10T21:41:18Z Shinmera: No
2014-11-10T21:41:28Z Bicyclid1ne: "packages" is wrong, and it does more than specify orders anyway
2014-11-10T21:41:30Z freehck: Why?
2014-11-10T21:41:39Z freehck: Hm...
2014-11-10T21:41:48Z H4ns: freehck: why do you attempt to doctor around?  is it difficult to accept that asdf is a build tool? why?
2014-11-10T21:41:49Z drewc: It is "Another System Definition Facility" IIRC. I use ASDF beyond build time a wee bit, like #'asdf:system-definition-pathname
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2014-11-10T21:41:57Z Shinmera: Build tool is a perfectly accurate description.
2014-11-10T21:42:05Z freehck: Okay.
2014-11-10T21:42:37Z freehck: But I cannot understand what it builds...
2014-11-10T21:42:45Z freehck: Maybe it's time to go to bed.
2014-11-10T21:42:45Z Bicyclid1ne: software?
2014-11-10T21:42:53Z freehck: What does it mean?
2014-11-10T21:42:56Z H4ns: freehck: it builds "systems".  a system is a library or an application.
2014-11-10T21:42:57Z freehck: Binaries?
2014-11-10T21:43:01Z Shinmera: Bicyclid1ne: It could potentially build hardware, too.
2014-11-10T21:43:13Z H4ns: freehck: no.  it loads all components that constitute a given system in the right order.
2014-11-10T21:43:14Z freehck: hardware?
2014-11-10T21:43:38Z H4ns: freehck: it can also avoid building components that have already been built.
2014-11-10T21:43:38Z freehck: H4ns: Gotcha!
2014-11-10T21:43:52Z Bicyclid1ne: maybe you should go to bed
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2014-11-10T21:44:48Z freehck: H4ns: so it lead the image of lisp machine to the state when all packages are compiled into internal lisp objects and loaded?
2014-11-10T21:44:52Z freehck: *leads
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2014-11-10T21:45:13Z freehck: H4ns: and this is called "build"?
2014-11-10T21:45:15Z Bicyclid1ne: not "packages", not necessarily compiled, and it could dump an executable afterwards and suchlike
2014-11-10T21:45:27Z H4ns: freehck: yes, that is its primary mode of operation.
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2014-11-10T21:46:00Z freehck: H4ns: thank you. I feel enlighten. =)
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2014-11-10T21:59:41Z goglosh: there should be a obfuscated lisp code contest
2014-11-10T21:59:51Z goglosh: lisp lends itself to obfuscation pretty well
2014-11-10T21:59:57Z p_l: stassats would be a serious contender with his APL
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2014-11-10T22:00:55Z antoszka: definitely
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2014-11-10T22:05:38Z freehck: Wow! But it looks fun: https://github.com/stassats/closer-apl/blob/master/examples.lisp
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2014-11-10T22:07:52Z jasom: freehck: micahjam97 here's a link with probably more about ASDF than you want to know right now: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html
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2014-11-10T22:10:49Z jasom: freehck: what other languages call "packages" Lisp does not, as lisp already has a very specific thing called "packages"
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2014-11-10T22:12:35Z jasom: clhs 11.1.1
2014-11-10T22:12:35Z specbot: Introduction to Packages: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aa.htm
2014-11-10T22:12:36Z freehck: jasom: I thought about packages as collections of symbols...
2014-11-10T22:12:52Z H4ns: freehck: very good thought.
2014-11-10T22:12:52Z jasom: freehck: more specifically they are a mapping from strings to symbols
2014-11-10T22:13:06Z jasom: but since maps are collections you're already right
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2014-11-10T22:18:27Z jasom: hmm, speaking of packages it appears that if i import an uninterned symbol to a package, it's home package becomes the package it is imported to; I can't find this behavior documented in import
2014-11-10T22:18:48Z jasom: nevermind, that's only because I'm blind
2014-11-10T22:19:22Z jasom: and because I typoed "home package" when I did a C-f
2014-11-10T22:20:12Z drewc: jasom: lol ... "import sets the home package of the symbol to package." ... yup! :)
2014-11-10T22:22:18Z freehck: hey, is there string-join function in cl?
2014-11-10T22:22:26Z freehck: where to load?
2014-11-10T22:22:33Z freehck: how to search?
2014-11-10T22:22:43Z Grue`: (concatenate 'string ....)
2014-11-10T22:23:18Z freehck: no-no-no, I need join
2014-11-10T22:23:30Z H4ns: freehck: not in cl, no.
2014-11-10T22:23:42Z Grue`: format :)
2014-11-10T22:23:47Z H4ns: it has probably been written a million times
2014-11-10T22:24:04Z drewc: string-join = (concatenate 'string ....) ; load = LOAD ; search = SEARCH
2014-11-10T22:24:10Z freehck: Yep, format... But it's written a little bit ugly...
2014-11-10T22:24:13Z freehck: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" ...
2014-11-10T22:24:49Z freehck: I was looking for something like (string-join list-of-strings separator)
2014-11-10T22:24:51Z oGMo: then defun it to something nicer
2014-11-10T22:25:03Z Grue`: i thought alexandria might have it, but nope
2014-11-10T22:25:13Z Bike: you can include the separator with some weird ~* ~c thing, probably
2014-11-10T22:25:34Z drewc: (with-output-to-string (s) (dolist (i '("asd" "fgh" "jkl")) (princ i s)))
2014-11-10T22:25:59Z freehck: Okay, I see it was a bad question. =/
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2014-11-10T22:26:19Z freehck: But in Racket the documentation is quite more friendly... =/
2014-11-10T22:26:24Z H4ns: freehck: an embarrassing question, really
2014-11-10T22:26:45Z H4ns: freehck: "you probably do something wrong if you need string-join often"
2014-11-10T22:27:06Z Grue`: everyone probably just writes little utils for themselves
2014-11-10T22:27:09Z H4ns: freehck: (i mean embarrassing for common lisp, not you)
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2014-11-10T22:29:03Z freehck: H4ns: I meant when I started with Racket, iirc, I found a pile of documentation and libraries containing all the functions I ever thought. And here it's quite difficult to know whether the function you need does exist or not.
2014-11-10T22:29:15Z H4ns: freehck: so?
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2014-11-10T22:29:42Z freehck: Maybe I do something wrong and look for functions in wrong places?
2014-11-10T22:30:01Z drewc: freehck: http://clhs.lisp.se/Front/Contents.htm
2014-11-10T22:30:02Z oGMo: freehck: no, it's just a pain, and often everyone reinvents the same thing
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2014-11-10T22:30:13Z H4ns: freehck: no.  some of the things that are obviously present in all modern languages are missing in cl.
2014-11-10T22:30:28Z oGMo: freehck: e.g. alexandria and quickutil try and solve it, but they don't
2014-11-10T22:30:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: alexandria is too small
2014-11-10T22:30:45Z H4ns: freehck: you need to accept "it does not exist" as answer and write it yourself.  most of the things that are "missing" are easy to write.
2014-11-10T22:30:54Z Grue`: freehck: if it's not in clhs or alexandria, then there's probably no standard version of it (exceptions are split-sequence and cl-ppcre)
2014-11-10T22:30:58Z oGMo: otoh at some point people don't care because the few things that are annoying they add to personal utility libraries and just use from there
2014-11-10T22:31:00Z drewc: Petit_Dejeuner: I think it is way way way to large...
2014-11-10T22:31:29Z drewc: Petit_Dejeuner: but the license works for me, so I "make it smaller" ;)
2014-11-10T22:31:45Z Grue`: but don't worry cl21 will save us all someday :)
2014-11-10T22:32:07Z wasamasa: lol
2014-11-10T22:32:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: I get what freehck is saying. Since most of lisp is lisp, if the stdlib doesn't solve all the problems you'd want to be presolved, what's the point?
2014-11-10T22:32:20Z wasamasa: Grue`: I've read its presentation today
2014-11-10T22:32:33Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: who said there was a point?
2014-11-10T22:33:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: What I mean is it's very upsetting.
2014-11-10T22:33:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yes, you can add the functions you need, but why would you need to?
2014-11-10T22:33:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: I hate doing it in every language.
2014-11-10T22:33:20Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: because that is the way cl is.
2014-11-10T22:33:21Z Grue`: there is no library that will solve ALL the problems
2014-11-10T22:33:32Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: there is no point.
2014-11-10T22:33:35Z Grue`: because everyone needs different things
2014-11-10T22:33:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ruby does a pretty decent job.
2014-11-10T22:33:50Z drewc: Petit_Dejeuner:  because programming is no fun, so it should all be done for us?
2014-11-10T22:34:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: drewc, Just the parts I expect to already be solved.
2014-11-10T22:34:05Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: then program in ruby
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2014-11-10T22:34:12Z drewc: Petit_Dejeuner: examples?
2014-11-10T22:34:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: H4ns, But I don't like Ruby
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2014-11-10T22:34:24Z H4ns: Petit_Dejeuner: then why do you mention it?
2014-11-10T22:34:31Z Bike: nothing riles people up like a nice string concatenation function, eh
2014-11-10T22:34:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: Because it does one thing well.
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2014-11-10T22:35:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: drewc, Most of the built in objects have a long list of high order methods. http://www.ruby-doc.org/core-2.1.4/Array.html
2014-11-10T22:35:22Z H4ns: well anyway, either accept that cl has lots of arcane useless stuff and lacks a lot of useful stuff and live with it, or use something else.
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2014-11-10T22:35:47Z wasamasa: Petit_Dejeuner: now, if only its docs were less lisp-reminiscent...
2014-11-10T22:35:48Z H4ns: the scope and extent of cl is water under the bridge.  there is nothing left but libraries to improve it.  i like it that way.
2014-11-10T22:35:49Z drewc: Petit_Dejeuner: I thought we were talking about lisp. My bad, you are right.
2014-11-10T22:35:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: wasamasa, yes
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2014-11-10T22:36:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: CL isn't worse than other languages. It's just more annoying (to me) because most of the language is the stdlib
2014-11-10T22:36:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well, it's worse than some, but not at the bottom.
2014-11-10T22:37:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: H4ns, It is nice to not have to fight with a BDFL.
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2014-11-10T22:38:46Z wasamasa: let's gather money for another round of the ANSI committee who will design a 21st century CL for us
2014-11-10T22:38:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: wasamasa, cl21 is already underway
2014-11-10T22:39:11Z wasamasa: Petit_Dejeuner: um, that's on an entirely different level
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2014-11-10T22:39:36Z White_Flame: the sub-languages of format & loop tend to do a ton of things you might think as individual functions missing from the spec
2014-11-10T22:39:50Z wasamasa: Petit_Dejeuner: and in the end, just another bundle of libraries
2014-11-10T22:39:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's true. Loop is amazing.
2014-11-10T22:39:59Z Xach: wasamasa: did you ever listen to that talk about the previous round of standardization?
2014-11-10T22:40:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: wasamasa, Ah, I see what you mean.
2014-11-10T22:40:12Z wasamasa: Xach: nope
2014-11-10T22:40:28Z H4ns: ignorance is bliss. :D
2014-11-10T22:40:35Z antoszka: Was that during the recent ELS, Kent Pitman?
2014-11-10T22:40:59Z wasamasa: I hope it wasn't part of that paywalled round of lisp talks
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2014-11-10T22:41:33Z Xach: wasamasa: https://soundcloud.com/zach-beane/peter-seibel-common-lisp - very nice perspective on how and why lisp standardization happened in the 80s
2014-11-10T22:41:53Z wasamasa: Xach: thanks
2014-11-10T22:42:01Z Xach: one point of view is that one big customer demanded it and it was economically necessary for interested parties to get together and make it happen
2014-11-10T22:42:20Z Xach: no standard meant no more paychecks for lisp vendors
2014-11-10T22:42:27Z Xach: the situation is so very very different now
2014-11-10T22:43:11Z White_Flame: if anything needs re-standardization, it's pathnames, threading, and networking, not little data utilities.
2014-11-10T22:43:38Z antoszka: networking and threading wouldn't be 're'.
2014-11-10T22:43:47Z White_Flame: but the ad-hoc standards tend to suffice
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2014-11-10T22:43:53Z White_Flame: just as in C, much lives outside the language spec
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2014-11-10T22:46:23Z Xach: You have to answer the question "Why, as a vendor/implementor, should I bother with what you propose?"
2014-11-10T22:47:30Z H4ns: Xach: "we will give you a share of the multi million dollar crowdfunding campaign that we've been successfully running"
2014-11-10T22:47:44Z Grue`: how does C solve this?
2014-11-10T22:48:06Z White_Flame: Grue`: Library hell
2014-11-10T22:48:16Z H4ns: Grue`: because of the huge commercial interest in c, its standardization process has never stopped.
2014-11-10T22:48:23Z drewc: I enjoy the spec, I really do... but I happen to be a web developer using a CL for both my clients and my servers. But, I use unicode as encoding, threads for threading, sockets for speaking .... every day. Are they ad-hoc standards? yes/no/maybe.
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2014-11-10T22:49:54Z White_Flame: The APIs in the libraries?  Yes.  The technology they use?  No
2014-11-10T22:49:58Z drewc: And I have used MOP as well. Not in ANSI at all.
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2014-11-10T23:03:54Z Petit_Dejeuner learned that lisp-unit supports everything he needs ten days after starting to write his own library.
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2014-11-10T23:24:04Z jasom: string-join for non-constant separator (when the trivial format doesn't work): (with-output-to-string (s) (loop for (item . rest) on strings do (write-sequence item s) when rest do (write-sequence separator s)))
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2014-11-10T23:31:03Z drewc: jasom: to quote myself : (with-output-to-string (s) (dolist (i '("asd" "fgh" "jkl")) (princ i s)))
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2014-11-10T23:31:24Z drewc: so, add a sep :)
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2014-11-10T23:35:16Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: wasamasa: it's easy.  Just fetch ALL the code and ALL the APIs you can find on the internet, and make it a big union, and you will get the language you want. Almost.
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2014-11-10T23:35:24Z pjb: This is what Wolfram's doing too.
2014-11-10T23:35:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: I don't think I have the personality to pull that off.
2014-11-10T23:35:49Z pjb: Then shut up and program in CL.
2014-11-10T23:35:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: Okay :(
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2014-11-10T23:38:12Z pjb: jasom: (apropos "UNSPLIT") ->> com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:unsplit-string, Def: function
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