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2014-10-26T00:12:11Z pjb: drmeister: I didn't know AI and robotics were so advanced!!! <06:52:07><drmeister> protist: I run a lab that currently comprises of ten synthetic organic graduate students.
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2014-10-26T00:13:28Z Xach: colloquially "replicants"
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2014-10-26T00:38:45Z drmeister: pjb: yes, every time one wears out I pull another one out of the vat.
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2014-10-26T00:39:54Z drmeister: They bump into walls and so forth for a couple of weeks but in no time I'm editing their terribly written theses.
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2014-10-26T00:43:47Z drmeister: When I released Clasp some people had trouble compiling the MPS version because clang couldn't handle the large (300 cases) switch statements that were automatically generated by the static analyzer that I wrote to build a garbage collector interface.
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2014-10-26T00:44:09Z drmeister: If anyone here had that problem and was inclined to give it another go - I think I fixed the problem.
2014-10-26T00:44:47Z drmeister: I converted the C++ switch statements to non-standard GCC/Clang "computed-goto".
2014-10-26T00:45:59Z drmeister: Next on my plate is to incorporate beach's "Cleavir" compiler front end and join it with Clasp's LLVM backend.
2014-10-26T00:46:09Z drmeister: Hopefully that will make Clasp a lot faster.
2014-10-26T00:46:52Z drmeister: Then I plan to expose some modern C++ libraries to show off the C++ interoperation capabilities.
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2014-10-26T00:47:28Z pjb: Honestly, I think that 300 case switches are not out of this world.  A patch to the compiler would be in order.
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2014-10-26T00:47:59Z drmeister: It's a bug in clang that's been around for a couple of years - and yeah 300 cases switches are not a lot in my book.
2014-10-26T00:49:21Z drmeister: But C++ is meant to be written by human beings. Sad, deluded human beings.
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2014-10-26T00:54:42Z Xach: the worst is when they just THINK they're happy
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2014-10-26T00:56:12Z pjb: I was thinking that we ought to make our IA to be happy.  Of course now, there may be a difference between an entity BEING happy, and THINKING it's happy, even if it's hard to discern.
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2014-10-26T00:57:35Z Xach: pjb: the difference is mostly in the happiness of the surrounding people who know the subject isn't REALLY happy, they just THINK they're happy.
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2014-10-26T01:01:47Z pjb: Xach: this difference may exist but it's not intrinsic.  While thinking you're happy, you may still have some unconscious or semiconscious signals indicating that you're being or will be hurt, or being unhappy.  By thinking you're happy, you (choose or don't choose to) ignore them.
2014-10-26T01:02:08Z Xach: you just THINK that
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2014-10-26T02:00:27Z BAMbanda: would anyone be able to help me determine why sbcl isn't installing on my debian?
2014-10-26T02:00:28Z BAMbanda: http://pastie.org/9675918
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2014-10-26T02:01:41Z bjorkintosh: you're building it?
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2014-10-26T02:02:01Z BAMbanda: bjorkintosh, i just wanted to grab the bleeding edge instead of from debian repositories
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2014-10-26T03:02:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-10-26T03:02:38Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: indeed, I think that having detached type tags would be greatly beneficial in an implementation that would target unix systems.
2014-10-26T03:02:39Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: re: macro/special operator definitions. IMO the special operator status is a function of the tool processing the the code.  (eg. there's no difference here between a CL function that's open coded (eg. CAR), a special operator marked as such in CLHS (IF), or a macro (COND).  Each operator defined in CL can be processed "as a special operator" by the tools.  Perhaps this should be take into account by the general code wal
2014-10-26T03:02:39Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: re: ftype vs. macro, I don't see that entirely incompatible.  (declaim (ftype (function (integer) integer) m)) (defmacro m (arg) (let ((i (gensym))) `(let ((,i ,arg)) (the integer (+ ,i ,i)))))  (the integer (+ (m 2) (m 3)))  Of course, (typep (macro-function 'm)  (function (t) t)) ; or more precisely, the result is of a type "expression evaluating to integer".
2014-10-26T03:02:39Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: IMO, as long as it doesn't make the code more complex, the toolbox should allow to implement extensions to strict ANSI CL. Some level of generalizing might be good and simplify it.  Of course, the SICL implementation must make choices (the "conformity choice", I assume without extensions).
2014-10-26T03:03:08Z brucem: morning, beach
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2014-10-26T03:11:28Z beach: pjb: Around?
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2014-10-26T03:29:33Z BAMbanda: hello, whats the preferred way of restful api interactions with lisp?
2014-10-26T03:29:45Z BAMbanda: '(get post put delete) ... stuff like that
2014-10-26T03:30:05Z beach: Are you talking Web stuff?
2014-10-26T03:30:19Z beach: Or more generally?
2014-10-26T03:31:20Z BAMbanda: beach, more general
2014-10-26T03:31:27Z BAMbanda: but in this case, i wanna pull facebook graph data
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2014-10-26T03:32:12Z beach: BAMbanda: OK, so I guess I don't understand the question.  What is meant by "restful api interactions"?
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2014-10-26T03:33:16Z BAMbanda: beach, a lot of web services make their data available via network calls
2014-10-26T03:33:47Z beach: I thought you said the question was more general that Web related.
2014-10-26T03:33:54Z BAMbanda: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_state_transfer
2014-10-26T03:34:07Z BAMbanda: beach, it is ... how can I make a network call via common lisp
2014-10-26T03:34:10Z BAMbanda: its the same as curl
2014-10-26T03:34:14Z BAMbanda: concept wise
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2014-10-26T03:34:42Z beach: So "restful api interaction" means "network call"?  OK...
2014-10-26T03:34:50Z BAMbanda: yes
2014-10-26T03:36:48Z kpreid: BAMbanda: REST is a constraint on the design of the API, not something about how you use it. what you're looking for is just a HTTP client library
2014-10-26T03:37:02Z BAMbanda: kpreid, yeah pretty much
2014-10-26T03:37:04Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2014-10-26T03:37:19Z beach: Hello drmeister? How is it going?
2014-10-26T03:37:45Z drmeister: Ok. I forked sicl.
2014-10-26T03:37:55Z beach: Oh dear! :)
2014-10-26T03:38:16Z BAMbanda: kpreid, do you know of any good ones i can use from quickload
2014-10-26T03:39:23Z kpreid: hm, no, sorry, been a while. my remark was merely to advise on what you should be looking for
2014-10-26T03:39:25Z drmeister: If I wanted to convert a sexp into an ast or hir. What sicl system would I load.
2014-10-26T03:39:47Z BAMbanda: kpreid, ok thanks
2014-10-26T03:39:57Z beach: drmeister: That would be in Cleavir/Generate-AST.
2014-10-26T03:40:27Z beach: drmeister: And the systems that it depends on.
2014-10-26T03:41:17Z beach: drmeister: You need to define methods on function-info and variable-info for your environment.
2014-10-26T03:41:55Z BAMbanda: Drakma seems to be a great fit as an HTTP client library
2014-10-26T03:42:06Z BAMbanda: http://weitz.de/drakma/
2014-10-26T03:43:03Z beach: drmeister: Then, when you have the AST, you would use Cleavir/AST-to-HIR.
2014-10-26T03:45:28Z drmeister: With ASDF if I (asdf:load-system "cleaver-generate-ast.asd") it will find the systems listed in the :depends-on argument to defsystem?  Or do I need to make symbolic links to all of the .asd files?
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2014-10-26T03:46:47Z drmeister: I can't test things at the moment - my laptop got wiped out about a week ago and I'm still installing things.  I don't have sbcl or slime installed yet.
2014-10-26T03:47:06Z beach: drmeister: I don't know.  I am completely incapable of understanding the ASDF documentation.  Personally, I have a thing in my .sbclrc file that enters all subdirectories into the central repository.
2014-10-26T03:47:29Z drmeister: You too!
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2014-10-26T03:48:24Z beach: I hear that rpg is working on improving the ASDF documentation.
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2014-10-26T03:49:03Z drmeister: Build systems seem have documentation that is generally unfathomable.
2014-10-26T03:50:10Z beach: I think in this case, it is just Fare assuming the reader knows an order of magnitude about the internals than he or she really does.
2014-10-26T03:50:26Z beach: *MORE about
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2014-10-26T03:51:04Z drmeister: I'm generalizing based on my attempts to understand boost-build, gnu automake and gnu make.
2014-10-26T03:51:11Z beach: ... whereas ASDF, in my opinion, should be usable to a fairly unsophisticated application programmer.
2014-10-26T03:51:51Z drmeister: Could I get a copy of your .sbclrc file?
2014-10-26T03:51:59Z drmeister: Just the SICL configuration parts?
2014-10-26T03:52:02Z beach: Sure, hold on...
2014-10-26T03:55:38Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sbclrc
2014-10-26T03:56:59Z beach: drmeister: It wasn't written for public consumption, so it might be less than optimal with respect to software engineering considerations.
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2014-10-26T03:57:58Z beach: So, whenever I start SBCL, should there be a new .asd file in the system, it is found automatically.
2014-10-26T03:58:20Z drmeister: No, that's fine.  I understand completely.  Transforming clasp from my personal project to something other people could build took me about a month of work.
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2014-10-26T03:58:44Z beach: Yeah, I know what you mean.
2014-10-26T03:59:22Z drmeister: That includes time both before and after I released it.
2014-10-26T03:59:28Z beach: When I write SICL or Cleavir code, I try to "tell a story" to people reading it, but sometimes when the code is experimental, I don't do it right away.
2014-10-26T03:59:50Z drmeister: But with this configuration I should be able to do these sexp->AST->HIR transformations in sbcl.
2014-10-26T04:00:25Z beach: As long as you write those methods for your environment, it should work, at least for the more basic forms.
2014-10-26T04:00:27Z drmeister: I guess the problem with doing it in sbcl is that the environments are different.
2014-10-26T04:00:46Z beach: No, it does not assume the SBCL environment.
2014-10-26T04:01:12Z beach: You have to write methods on function-info and variable-info for your own environment.
2014-10-26T04:01:39Z drmeister: I mean I'd have to write methods for function-info and variable-info for sbcl environments - wouldn't I?
2014-10-26T04:02:28Z beach: You might be able to use the "hostile" environment then.
2014-10-26T04:02:57Z beach: I gave up on trying to understand how to do that for SBCL.
2014-10-26T04:03:37Z beach: Check in Cleavir/Environment/Examples/hostile.lisp
2014-10-26T04:03:54Z drmeister: How do you do development in SBCL with Cleavir?
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2014-10-26T04:04:20Z beach: Define "do development" :)
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2014-10-26T04:06:11Z drmeister: What i do, write code, test code, shake fist at screen with impotent rage?
2014-10-26T04:06:24Z drmeister: Test code mostly.
2014-10-26T04:06:49Z beach: drmeister: Before, I had some code that was much less implementation-independent, and I was able to generate x86-64 code, but I broke all that by creating Cleavir.  I am only now about to re-create the SICL environment I need to satisfy the Cleavir requirements.
2014-10-26T04:07:54Z beach: drmeister: So I haven't really used Cleavir for SICL development yet.  But I have tested the Cleavir functions as you can see from the Test subdirectories.
2014-10-26T04:08:21Z drmeister: But while writing Cleavir you ran tests and generated those graphviz graphs of HIR.  Were you doing that with the hostile environment code that you just pointed me at?
2014-10-26T04:08:49Z beach: I think I used the test environments.
2014-10-26T04:09:05Z beach: Generate-AST/Test
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2014-10-26T04:10:22Z beach: In Cleavir/Generate-AST/Test/environment.lisp there is an environment with some methods on the required Cleavir generic functions that is workable for the tests.
2014-10-26T04:10:42Z beach: It is called BOGUS-ENVIRONMENT.
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2014-10-26T04:12:27Z drmeister: I think I see.  Well I'll bang at it as I get time this week. I should get more time as the week progresses.
2014-10-26T04:12:39Z beach: OK.
2014-10-26T04:12:49Z beach: Let me know if you have any questions or remarks.
2014-10-26T04:13:03Z drmeister: Oh yes.
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2014-10-26T04:13:43Z beach: I suggest you start by running and understanding the tests in Generate-AST and AST-to-HIR
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2014-10-26T04:26:13Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-10-26T04:26:32Z drmeister: How does Cleavir get access to environment objects?  Through macros I presume.
2014-10-26T04:26:53Z beach: By calling variable-info and function-info.
2014-10-26T04:27:25Z beach: Whenever it sees a symbol in a variable position, it calls variable-info.
2014-10-26T04:27:27Z drmeister: I mean how does it get them to begin with?
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2014-10-26T04:27:50Z beach: I am afraid I don't understand the question.
2014-10-26T04:28:17Z beach: Oh, you mean the object that represents the environment?
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2014-10-26T04:28:21Z drmeister: Yes.
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2014-10-26T04:28:36Z beach: It's a parameter to the generate-ast function.
2014-10-26T04:29:44Z drmeister: So normally I would call generate-ast with a top-level form and NIL for the environment wouldn't I?
2014-10-26T04:29:52Z beach: No.
2014-10-26T04:30:16Z beach: You have to create an object that represents your own environment, even if you don't have first-class environments.
2014-10-26T04:30:25Z beach: And then you have to have methods that dispatch on it.
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2014-10-26T04:31:20Z beach: You might want to check how the hostile environment does it.
2014-10-26T04:31:56Z beach: It only assumes the standard Common Lisp environment functions that use NIL to mean the null lexical environment.
2014-10-26T04:32:11Z nightfly: lol @ hostile environment
2014-10-26T04:32:16Z drmeister: I do have first-class environments.
2014-10-26T04:32:30Z beach: You told me the other day that you didn't.
2014-10-26T04:32:38Z beach: You told me that the value cell is in the symbol object.
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2014-10-26T04:33:04Z drmeister: First class lexical environments?
2014-10-26T04:33:18Z beach: I am talking about global environments.
2014-10-26T04:33:40Z drmeister: I have first class lexical environments.   That means that lexical environments are instances of objects that can be passed as arguments to functions - right?
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2014-10-26T04:34:04Z drmeister: Oh.
2014-10-26T04:34:22Z beach: Well, the value cell is part of the global environment, so if your value cell is in the symbol object, you don't have first-class global environments.
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2014-10-26T04:35:12Z drmeister: I see.   I wasn't thinking about global environments that way.     I think I understand now based on our earlier conversations.  I have to fake a global environment.
2014-10-26T04:35:46Z beach: nightfly: I kind of like it.  It's appropriate.
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2014-10-26T04:35:57Z beach: drmeister: Yes, exactly.
2014-10-26T04:36:13Z beach: drmeister: It took me 20 years to think about global environments that way.
2014-10-26T04:37:44Z beach: But now, when I read the section in the Common Lisp HyperSpec about different environments involved in compilation, it makes more sense.
2014-10-26T04:39:28Z beach: SICL has (or rather "will have") first-class global environments, and I think a lot of things become simpler that way.
2014-10-26T04:40:21Z drmeister: So Cleavir doesn't need to do anything with the implementations lexical environments?
2014-10-26T04:41:14Z beach: drmeister: You have two choices: Either you make Cleavir use your own lexical environments by defining methods on variable-info etc on those.
2014-10-26T04:41:42Z beach: drmeister: Or else, you define a method on the Cleavir-function MACRO-FUNCTION for your own global environment.
2014-10-26T04:42:08Z beach: The latter solution is simpler, because then Cleavir supplies its own lexical environments.
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2014-10-26T04:44:29Z beach: Oh, and the latter solution requires that you rewrite your native macro-function to call the generic one.
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2014-10-26T04:44:50Z beach: This is all so new to me as well, I don't have everything in my head.
2014-10-26T04:46:38Z beach: The problem is the following: Your own global environment will have macros, typically SETF, that call MACROEXPAND explicitly with the environment that they are passed as an argument.  This environment will sometimes by a Cleavir lexical environment if you use the second solution.  So your native MACROEXPAND must understand Cleavir lexical environments.
2014-10-26T04:47:08Z beach: In most implementations, MACROEXPAND-1 calls MACRO-FUNCTION.
2014-10-26T04:49:42Z beach: If you change your native MACRO-FUNCTION as follows: Define a GLOBAL-MACRO-FUNCTION that returns the macro function in your global environment.  Define a method on the Cleavir generic MACRO-FUNCTION for your global environment that calls GLOBAL-MACRO-FUNCTION, and write your own MACRO-FUNCTION to call the Cleavir generic version.
2014-10-26T04:49:54Z beach: It is easier than it sounds.
2014-10-26T04:50:43Z drmeister: Ok. That helps a lot. Thank you.
2014-10-26T04:51:53Z beach: I think it was Bike who helped me figure that one out.  It is much easier than to write methods on function-info etc for your own lexical environments.
2014-10-26T04:53:32Z drmeister: I'm not sure my own lexical environments are rich enough to support what Cleavir needs.
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2014-10-26T04:53:46Z drmeister: So I may go with option 2
2014-10-26T04:53:49Z beach: Yeah.
2014-10-26T04:54:03Z beach: SICL will definitely use option 2.
2014-10-26T04:55:47Z beach: The SICL global environment code is in flux right now, but you can look in Code/Environment in the files generic-functions.lisp, info-methods.lisp sicl-environment.asd, and the subdirectory Simple
2014-10-26T04:55:53Z drmeister: I better get to sleep
2014-10-26T04:56:02Z beach: OK, good night.
2014-10-26T04:56:04Z beach: Sleep well.
2014-10-26T04:56:19Z pjb: beach: hello.  WRT global environment, what about multithreading?
2014-10-26T04:56:31Z beach: pjb: What about it?
2014-10-26T04:56:58Z beach: It will have to use locks, I presume.
2014-10-26T04:57:03Z pjb: (progn (make-thread (lambda () (proclaim '(optimize (speed 3))) (ql:quickload :system-a))) (make-thread (lambda () (proclaim '(optimize (speed 0))) (ql:quickload :system-b))))
2014-10-26T04:57:13Z pjb: and special variables, etc.
2014-10-26T04:57:44Z beach: What would you like to happen? :)
2014-10-26T04:57:49Z pjb: make-thread takes a :initial-bindings argument, which basically shadows only part of the global environment (some special variables).
2014-10-26T04:58:34Z pjb: I think it would be a good time to think whether one should be able to compose global environment with shadowed parts for separate threads.
2014-10-26T04:58:47Z beach: Good thinking.
2014-10-26T04:59:10Z pjb: Or else, perhaps having the value cell in the global environment is to restrictive.
2014-10-26T04:59:42Z beach: Well, that's just the value cell holding the global value, so that's the way threads can communicate.
2014-10-26T05:00:04Z pjb: Right.
2014-10-26T05:00:21Z pjb: And we want that, so we need a global global environment.
2014-10-26T05:00:29Z beach: Yes.
2014-10-26T05:00:48Z pjb: On the other hand, we may want to allow "forking" a global environment later in the compilation process.
2014-10-26T05:00:49Z beach: I see what you mean.
2014-10-26T05:01:02Z beach: Not a bad idea.
2014-10-26T05:01:40Z pjb: Upon evaluating some :compile-toplevel forms.
2014-10-26T05:01:53Z beach: I mean, I already foresee cloning the global environment to obtain the initial evaluation environment for the compiler.
2014-10-26T05:02:00Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-26T05:02:40Z beach: It would be nice to figure out an API for that kind of stuff.
2014-10-26T05:02:47Z beach: Not easy, perhaps.
2014-10-26T05:02:49Z pjb: since we can invoke the compiler while compiling (even with recursive with-compilation-units).
2014-10-26T05:03:03Z beach: Sure, yeah.
2014-10-26T05:03:49Z beach: Basically, we need to figure out what parts of the global environment are shared when it is cloned, and what parts become private.  Right?
2014-10-26T05:04:55Z pjb: Well, I think that basically, the standard OO model matches that.  A cloned environment would be like a subclass for the original environment (superclass), and searching something in the cloned environment could defer to the superclass if it has not been overriden.
2014-10-26T05:05:25Z beach: Sure.  But the question is about modifications.
2014-10-26T05:05:32Z pjb: My point is that we may have to dynamically add overriding later in the compilation process.
2014-10-26T05:05:33Z beach: Like your OPTIMIZE example.
2014-10-26T05:05:37Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-26T05:06:07Z beach: Maybe some aspects can be decided once and for all to be private.  OPTIMIZE sounds like a good candidate.
2014-10-26T05:06:13Z pjb: The proclamation occurs in a thread.  An implementation will have to choose whether it does that in the global environment, or in shadows the declaration in the thread specific environment.
2014-10-26T05:06:24Z beach: Yep, I get it.
2014-10-26T05:06:28Z pjb: The toolbox should allow both.
2014-10-26T05:06:45Z beach: More work!  Excellent!  Thanks pjb! :)
2014-10-26T05:06:58Z pjb: I gave this example, because specifically, different libraries require different optimization levels.
2014-10-26T05:07:08Z beach: Yes, yes.  Good example.
2014-10-26T05:07:10Z pjb: You may compile one to run it, and another to debug it.
2014-10-26T05:07:36Z pjb: It's obvious in the case of the special variables (including *readtable*)
2014-10-26T05:07:45Z beach: I fully agree.
2014-10-26T05:07:54Z beach: And it is impossible to give a general rule.
2014-10-26T05:08:12Z pjb: And implementations may want to differ, since threads are an extension.
2014-10-26T05:08:14Z beach: So, as you say, the toolbox must allow both.
2014-10-26T05:08:44Z pjb: Sorry to give more work (but I guess at this stage it's ok, and generalizing leads to simplifications in general).
2014-10-26T05:09:20Z beach: I know that very well.  When I created Cleavir, SICL became much simpler.
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2014-10-26T05:09:52Z beach: pjb: Can I ask you a question about your first memo?
2014-10-26T05:10:01Z pjb: Sure.
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2014-10-26T05:10:55Z beach: My thinking was that the only part of libc that would be reusable for Lisp would be the OS interface, and it may be better anyway, to create a Lisp-specific layer for OS functions.  Then it won't matter whether you have detached type tags or not.
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2014-10-26T05:12:45Z pjb: Actually, I gathered that note there, but for LEP a usual CL implementation will do perfectly (we wouldn't want to use C libraries, or just the strict minimum).  The idea of separate tags would be useful for a "niche" implementation targetting specifically unix (POSIX) systems, and where we'd want a better (and simplier) integration with the C environment.
2014-10-26T05:12:50Z beach: As in this one: http://metamodular.com/POSIX-API/posix-api.html
2014-10-26T05:13:21Z beach: pjb: Oh, yes, I see.
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2014-10-26T05:14:00Z beach: pjb: On the other hand LEP would probably be faster to realize with the POSIX interface in that URL than with a specific implementation with detached tags.
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2014-10-26T05:14:28Z beach: ... because then an existing (more or less) implementation could be used.
2014-10-26T05:14:59Z pjb: Definitely. If you remember, I worked on a CL-POSIX (it was hosted on sourceforge for a time).  There remains a few traces in my repo: https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/1ee0848bf0ee59d55dac072600ca6404a5ef1090:clisp
2014-10-26T05:15:37Z beach: I didn't remember. :(
2014-10-26T05:15:59Z pjb: beach: actually those are two different things.  LEP = a kernel + 100% lisp userland;   separate tag = a CL implementation on POSIX.
2014-10-26T05:15:59Z beach: Is there overlap in my URL with what you did?
2014-10-26T05:16:09Z pjb: 100% overlap :-)
2014-10-26T05:16:12Z beach: :(
2014-10-26T05:16:17Z pjb: I mean, in objective.
2014-10-26T05:16:37Z beach: But, do you already have definitions for those OS functions?
2014-10-26T05:16:42Z pjb: But other have also worked on POSIX interfaces in various libraries.  I was a little too early with CL-POSIX at the time.
2014-10-26T05:17:09Z pjb: No, not these functions.
2014-10-26T05:17:15Z beach: Whew!
2014-10-26T05:17:37Z beach: Your stuff is specifically for CLISP?
2014-10-26T05:17:45Z beach: I see C code in there.
2014-10-26T05:18:41Z pjb: At the time, yes I used directly CLISP FFI.  It would have to be updated for CFFI (which didn't exist for a lot of years yet).   For now, I've got DIRENT, and IPC (IPC, MSQ, SHM, SEM).
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2014-10-26T05:19:16Z pjb: It's obsolete it concerns UFFI, which is not used anymore.
2014-10-26T05:19:29Z beach: You attacked the problem from the implementation point of view, whereas I defined an implementation-independent API.
2014-10-26T05:19:41Z beach: I haven't written a single line of code for it.
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2014-10-26T05:20:18Z beach: In my opinion, it would be good if we could agree on an API for the low-level part.
2014-10-26T05:20:23Z pjb: The implementation independant specifications are in https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/1ee0848bf0ee59d55dac072600ca6404a5ef1090:cl-posix
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2014-10-26T05:21:28Z beach: We definitely need to collaborate on this one.
2014-10-26T05:22:08Z pjb: And the others :-)
2014-10-26T05:22:14Z beach: Sure. :)
2014-10-26T05:22:35Z beach: Do you have a web site for the spec the way I did for the few functions I defined?
2014-10-26T05:22:57Z pjb: Not currently.  Since the project was inactive, it has been garbage collected by sourceforge a long ago.
2014-10-26T05:23:10Z beach: Oh!
2014-10-26T05:23:54Z beach: I think if we want to submit the individual function specifications for review here, it has to be easily available on the web, like I did.
2014-10-26T05:23:57Z pjb: There remains pages on cliki: http://www.cliki.net/cl-posix-generalities etc.
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2014-10-26T05:25:42Z pjb: But if we want to make progress on these projects, we will have to have some funding.
2014-10-26T05:26:53Z beach: It is more realistic for me to plan as if no funding is available.
2014-10-26T05:27:29Z beach: For the specification of the API, it could be done with the SIOD method.  One page per day.
2014-10-26T05:27:43Z beach: It would take a few months.  Less if more people help out.
2014-10-26T05:28:36Z beach: "ce n'est pas sorcier" as we say.
2014-10-26T05:28:46Z beach: It aint rocket science.
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2014-10-26T05:32:04Z beach: Furthermore, once I am able to generate native code for SICL, I will need that interface, because I am not planning to use any C code for SICL.
2014-10-26T05:33:02Z beach: Initially, I probably only need a few things like MMAP, OPEN, CLOSE, READ, WRITE, and a few more.  But as I add functionality I will need more.
2014-10-26T05:33:46Z beach: pjb: So one strategy for you could be to sit down a wait until I need it so urgently that I have to write it. :)
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2014-10-26T09:24:05Z beach: *sigh*.  I find myself rewriting a lot of code, but then, I don't see any way of figuring out how things are supposed to work, other than attempting to implement them, and seeing what goes wrong.
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2014-10-26T09:24:56Z beach: Luckily, we have a programming language in which (re-)writing things is fairly easy compared to some other languages.
2014-10-26T09:29:51Z pjb: beach: you might be interested in the works of Arsac, eg.: "La construction de programmes structurés" (DUNOD / BORDAS 1977 ISBN 2-04-007922-X), where several chapters are dedicated to program transfoms (syntactic, semantic, improving algorithms).
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2014-10-26T09:30:42Z beach: Never heard of it.  Thanks for the info.
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2014-10-26T09:32:56Z majere: Wish it were available in English.
2014-10-26T09:33:31Z beach: majere: Where do you live?
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2014-10-26T09:35:11Z majere: Here, there. Not .fr.
2014-10-26T09:36:47Z beach: I didn't mean to pry.  But I was thinking that people in EU should probably try to learn a few foreign languages, and French should probably be one of them.
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2014-10-26T09:38:09Z pjb: Yes, and anyways, it's a "math" book :-)
2014-10-26T09:38:33Z majere: I'm not in the .eu.
2014-10-26T09:38:54Z beach: majere: Fair enough!
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2014-10-26T09:42:21Z majere: But I will do my utmost to learn French due to your thoughts on the matter. German never really was enough.
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2014-10-26T09:43:24Z beach: Yeah, I know.
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2014-10-26T09:59:59Z beach: majere: Oh, you are new here, I see.  I guess it would have been more appropriate to give you advice about programming languages rather than natural languages.  Sorry about that.
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2014-10-26T10:01:05Z majere: Why would it have been appropriate to give me advice at all?
2014-10-26T10:02:48Z beach: Occupational disease on my part.
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2014-10-26T10:03:50Z majere: My sympathies.
2014-10-26T10:04:03Z beach: Thanks.
2014-10-26T10:04:15Z majere: Bbl.
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2014-10-26T10:04:37Z joga: I feel people especially in EU know languages besides their mother tongue...
2014-10-26T10:04:58Z pjb: That said, statistically, new people on IRC are rather newbies, than unknown lisp experts.
2014-10-26T10:05:30Z beach: pjb: Yeah, but I didn't feel like debating it.
2014-10-26T10:05:33Z beach: joga: Not so much in France.
2014-10-26T10:05:40Z beach: joga: It is improving though.
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2014-10-26T10:06:17Z joga: well I guess they have this national pride about it, haven't been there though to verify
2014-10-26T10:06:39Z Shinmera: iirc the amount of known languages per person in Europe is around 2.0±0.4 per country.
2014-10-26T10:06:40Z beach: joga: That's a common misconception.  In fact they are quite ashamed of this fact.
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2014-10-26T10:06:46Z joga: oh
2014-10-26T10:06:49Z pjb: All French student has to learn at least two foreign languages from age 11-18.
2014-10-26T10:07:33Z beach: pjb: But this is recent, right?
2014-10-26T10:07:55Z pjb: No. It was already the case when I was in college.
2014-10-26T10:08:21Z beach: I see.  I blame the quality of teaching in the past then.
2014-10-26T10:08:34Z ggole: "attempting to implement them, and seeing what goes wrong" A pretty good method in my experience.
2014-10-26T10:08:46Z pjb: It's been computed that students have the opportunity to speak the foreign language only half a hour per year…
2014-10-26T10:09:02Z beach: Wow! No wonder, then.
2014-10-26T10:09:17Z pjb: eg. 2 hour/week 40 week/year, 40 student/class.
2014-10-26T10:09:21Z beach: ggole: Yeah, I couldn't work in a waterfall context.
2014-10-26T10:09:44Z capisce: why should French be prioritized?
2014-10-26T10:10:02Z ggole: There's always some important detail that writeups fail to capture
2014-10-26T10:10:30Z beach: capisce: There is no point in prioritizing languages where the native speakers already master at least one foreign language.
2014-10-26T10:10:50Z pjb: capisce: Spanish, French, Chinese and English are the most spoken languages world wide (because of home or ex-colonies).
2014-10-26T10:10:53Z beach: ggole: Writeup?  As in design "on paper"?
2014-10-26T10:11:01Z Shinmera: In lisp news, I finally managed to make my monster macro / CLOS hackery work to allow more lispy definitions of CommonQt/C++ classes like so: http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/79
2014-10-26T10:11:19Z ggole: Yeah
2014-10-26T10:11:33Z beach: ggole: I can't agree more.
2014-10-26T10:12:17Z capisce: pjb: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0775272.html
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2014-10-26T10:12:34Z ggole: It's nice to use papers to inform a rough direction, but they don't substitute for having tried an implementation at all.
2014-10-26T10:13:37Z capisce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers
2014-10-26T10:13:44Z capisce: German has more speakers than French too
2014-10-26T10:14:09Z beach: ggole: My guess is that this common rule of "think before you do" when "doing" refers to coding was appropriate when coding was much harder than it is now.
2014-10-26T10:14:18Z pjb: capisce: the USA is in war against France.  They won't win.  http://www.francophonie.org/Denombrement-des-francophones.html
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2014-10-26T10:15:11Z majere wonders why so many adopt a habit of double spacing after full-stops.  Is it taught this way in the EU?
2014-10-26T10:15:21Z pjb: It's emacs.
2014-10-26T10:15:40Z beach: No, it's an old US habit.  And, yes, Emacs has some stuff that depends on it.
2014-10-26T10:15:44Z ggole: I was taught to use typewriters in that way.
2014-10-26T10:16:14Z pjb: When justifying paragraphs, it distinguishes dot-space-space as end of sentence vs. dot-space which may happen at the end of an abreviation inside a sentence.
2014-10-26T10:16:27Z pjb: For non-proportionaly typing.
2014-10-26T10:16:52Z capisce: pjb: alright, though maybe there is similar underreporting for the other languages
2014-10-26T10:17:12Z beach: I am sorry I started this off-topic discussion.
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2014-10-26T10:17:22Z majere: pjb: So it has nothing to do with the semantics of the language. Got it.
2014-10-26T10:17:25Z pjb: capisce: there's a difference between under-reporting, and omiting entirely 220 million people.
2014-10-26T10:18:30Z beach: majere: It is an interesting example of the tools shaping the habits of how one writes things.  There are many more such examples.  My favorite one is how camelcase broke an entire family of Emacs commands, which is (partly) why I don't use it.
2014-10-26T10:18:51Z capisce: anyway, my estimate of the relative importance of french has been raised
2014-10-26T10:19:50Z majere: beach: Emacs, or camelcase?
2014-10-26T10:19:58Z pjb: cam
2014-10-26T10:20:05Z pjb: emacs is used, camelcase no.
2014-10-26T10:20:07Z beach: Heh!  I don't use CamelCase.
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2014-10-26T10:20:26Z pjb: I use camel-case, you don't use CamelCase :-)
2014-10-26T10:20:31Z beach: :)
2014-10-26T10:20:46Z majere: Such lovely people.
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2014-10-26T10:26:23Z beach: Another example of tools shaping the way I write things is that in C, I always put the `extern' keyword in the .h file for declaring functions.  That way, I can use grep to find those declarations.
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2014-10-26T10:28:33Z pjb: One of the main things I was taught by a CS teacher is: don't shoot yourself in the foot.  So indeed, always use extern for external functions in C, to make life easier later.  Lisp is a don't-shot-yourself-in-the-foot programming language.
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2014-10-26T10:28:49Z beach: ... and the semi-standard Lisp rule for how many semicolons to use is of course in that category.
2014-10-26T10:29:49Z beach: pjb: You must have had an unusually good CS teacher.
2014-10-26T10:30:12Z pjb: UPMC Paris 6.
2014-10-26T10:30:23Z beach: That's a place, not a teacher.
2014-10-26T10:30:35Z pjb: I don't remember the names :-(
2014-10-26T10:30:44Z beach: But yeah, they have good teachers.  I know several of them.
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2014-10-26T10:31:37Z beach: Christian Queinnec is one of them.
2014-10-26T10:31:39Z duper: Is Scheme a dialect of Common LISP?
2014-10-26T10:31:45Z beach: No
2014-10-26T10:32:03Z majere: Is Scheme a lisp dialect?
2014-10-26T10:32:13Z beach: majere: Debatable.
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2014-10-26T10:32:21Z duper: Can a Common LISP evaluator be written in R7RS?
2014-10-26T10:32:35Z beach: majere: Because there is no widely-aggreed-upon definition of what it means to be "a Lisp dialect".
2014-10-26T10:32:48Z duper: derp durp??
2014-10-26T10:33:03Z beach: duper: It can be written in any Turing-complete language.
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2014-10-26T10:33:35Z duper: beach: Can meta-circular evaluation be written in any Turing-complete language?
2014-10-26T10:33:52Z duper: ..without introducing the halting problem?
2014-10-26T10:34:19Z pjb: duper: see: http://rigaux.org/language-study/diagram.png
2014-10-26T10:35:43Z beach: duper: Any Turing-complete language can implement a universal Turning machine, so yes.  But it can be more or less complicated.
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2014-10-26T10:37:00Z ggole: The halting problem isn't really affected by how you implement an evaluator
2014-10-26T10:37:15Z duper: pjb, nice but isn't the capitalization wrong on a lot of those? ..like shouldn't Fortran I be FORTRAN and Algol 58 be ALGOL58?
2014-10-26T10:37:46Z Shinmera: Why would it matter one way or the other
2014-10-26T10:38:17Z beach: duper: That's a bit too general for this channel.  The topic of #lisp is Common Lisp.
2014-10-26T10:39:31Z duper: Okay, sorry.
2014-10-26T10:39:59Z pjb: duper: a Univerasl Turing Machine is meta-programming a Turing Machine on a Turing Machine (with the advantage, that now the state machine is recorded on the tape).
2014-10-26T10:40:16Z pjb: s/Univerasl/Universal/
2014-10-26T10:40:43Z beach: Fingers used to type "fasl"?
2014-10-26T10:42:23Z duper: pjb: Okay, what about meta-circular evaluation whose purpose is to identify all security vulnerabilities in the original interpreter? Is that a halting problem?
2014-10-26T10:43:17Z beach: Certainly, in Common Lisp it is.
2014-10-26T10:43:21Z duper: well, any eval by any language, really.. (not sure if turing-completeness matters)
2014-10-26T10:43:37Z duper: beach: only in CL?
2014-10-26T10:43:56Z beach: I was just sticking to the topic.
2014-10-26T10:44:01Z duper: s/meta-circular//
2014-10-26T10:44:07Z duper: forget about that part.
2014-10-26T10:44:21Z duper: beach: heh. ok.
2014-10-26T10:44:29Z duper: Is CLOS a dialect of Common LISP?
2014-10-26T10:44:36Z beach: No.
2014-10-26T10:44:44Z beach: CLOS is the Common Lisp object system.
2014-10-26T10:44:52Z beach: It is an integral part of Common Lisp.
2014-10-26T10:46:21Z beach: duper: We write it "Lisp" these days.  When it is written "LISP", we think of dialects from before 1980 or so.
2014-10-26T10:46:25Z duper: What's the most popular free CL implementation? ..or do you suggest another regardless of popularity/licensing?
2014-10-26T10:46:42Z beach: duper: Most people here would recommend SBCL.
2014-10-26T10:46:43Z pjb: duper: there are a couple of CL implementation in (old) scheme.  Butterfly CL was implemented in Butterfly Scheme.   But no recent implementation of CL is written in Scheme.  There's a r4rs implementation in CL named "pseudo" scheme.
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2014-10-26T10:47:04Z duper: beach: Fair enough. It's not a proper acronym.
2014-10-26T10:47:46Z duper: pjb: How about vice versa?
2014-10-26T10:47:49Z pjb: Yes, identifying security vulnerability, _in_ _general_, reverts to the halting problem.  But this shouldn't prevent you to write a useful program to detect security vulnerabilities in concrete programs.
2014-10-26T10:48:00Z pjb: duper: pseudo-scheme.
2014-10-26T10:48:50Z duper: pjb: I was just double-checking cuz I made that the conclusion of a whitepaper after considering it for a while and just wanted a second opinion. Thanks..
2014-10-26T10:50:10Z duper: pjb: So there's an R4RS CL that goes to another RnRS or what? ..or you just mean pseudo-scheme is still R4RS?
2014-10-26T10:50:50Z pjb: Yes, it is still r4rs.
2014-10-26T10:51:03Z pjb: It would be a nice project to implement r7rs/small in CL.
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2014-10-26T10:51:20Z pjb: (we assume r7rs/big will be implemented in r7rs/small).
2014-10-26T10:52:02Z pjb: duper: in Common Music version 2 (cm-2), there's a specific scheme implementation written in CL.  In cm-3 they implemented this scheme in C++ instead).
2014-10-26T10:52:11Z duper: Sorry, I know it seems pointless but really helps clarify; similar to how C++ isn't a proper superset of C--many ppl seem to believe this misconception.)
2014-10-26T10:52:20Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-26T10:53:02Z pjb: And similarly to C++ vs. C, you have: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/intersection-r5rs-common-lisp-emacs-lisp/index.html
2014-10-26T10:53:20Z duper: pjb: I always think Connection Machines parallelism when I see stuff like "CM-5."
2014-10-26T10:53:40Z duper: nice
2014-10-26T10:54:15Z pjb: star lisp, "*Lisp" was the lisp of the Connection Machines.
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2014-10-26T10:56:40Z duper: no shit? how'd you know that?
2014-10-26T10:57:11Z pjb: I've been watching the lisp ecosystem for 18 years now.
2014-10-26T10:58:21Z duper: oh, duh.. shittypedia article, hah.
2014-10-26T10:58:21Z pjb: duper: but you can cheat: google for connection machine lisp.
2014-10-26T10:58:51Z duper: pjb: not insinuating any lack of pre-existing foreknowledge..
2014-10-26T11:00:03Z duper: Is AI dead in the Lisp world now?
2014-10-26T11:01:24Z pjb: This sentence is rather meaningless.  What we can say is that the google car, and Watson are not programmed in lisp.
2014-10-26T11:02:03Z pjb: But then, the google car is a big cheat: they use a pre-loaded database of streets.
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2014-10-26T11:06:39Z duper: pjb: What are you implying? That TSP should have been solved with LISP for Google's auto-driving cars similar to commercial airline flights in Eric Raymond's LISP advocacy article?
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2014-10-26T11:07:28Z duper: I'd be concerned about an RTOS for a car, but at least there wouldn't be any memory corruption bugs and the like.
2014-10-26T11:08:23Z duper: I guess everyone here already knows about the LISP coding activity on the TOPS-20 at TWENEX.ORG?
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2014-10-26T11:09:42Z duper: I really like the COMPILE command on there.. it supports more languages than any other compiler I've ever seen..
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2014-10-26T11:12:42Z duper: pjb: ..or were you implying that AI is ubiquitous now? I was really wondering if it was strictly behavioral or a neural network based approach (both?)
2014-10-26T11:14:10Z pjb: duper: AFAICS, the brain works at several level.  There's a statistical level, but there's also a symbolic level.  for the statistics module (the unconscious layer), you need either billions of slow processors (100 Hz), or a few thousands of fast processors (GHz), and you need optimized out code: generate binary code from a lisp compiler ;-)  For the symbolic layer, you need a symbolic programming language like lisp.
2014-10-26T11:14:56Z duper: pjb: Don't forget long/short-term memory (NUMA, perhaps?)
2014-10-26T11:15:06Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-26T11:15:28Z duper: ..and instead of having a compile-time, why not a machine that has the base CL instructions in hardware?
2014-10-26T11:16:05Z duper: sort of like Sun Microsystems said they were going to do with the JVM and embedded devices..
2014-10-26T11:16:10Z pjb: Some do that.  You can do it with FGPAs.
2014-10-26T11:16:38Z |3b|: pjb: don't forget cm-lisp, the other lisp of the connection machines
2014-10-26T11:16:39Z pjb: Or you can just play with virtual machines.  clisp uses a lisp VM. (but it's lower level than just CL special operators).
2014-10-26T11:17:46Z duper: pjb: Remember lightning for GNU guile?
2014-10-26T11:17:51Z pjb: Translating an interpreter for CL special operators into VHDL would be a major project.
2014-10-26T11:18:17Z duper: It's a deprecated VM now--hated it.
2014-10-26T11:18:49Z pjb: http://www.aviduratas.de/lisp/lispmfpga/
2014-10-26T11:20:21Z duper: pjb: So how much diff is ANSI Common Lisp (i.e. clisp) from Common Lisp?
2014-10-26T11:20:47Z pjb: clisp is an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp.  Common Lisp IS ANSI Common Lisp.
2014-10-26T11:20:59Z duper: pjb: wow, now that looks like something I could get into..
2014-10-26T11:21:46Z duper: pjb: okay, but u sed its lower level than just CL spec ops
2014-10-26T11:22:01Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-26T11:22:20Z pjb: My theorem is that the complexity is conserved.
2014-10-26T11:22:22Z duper: you mean like it writes the operations natively instead of writing functions with pre-defined primitives?
2014-10-26T11:22:42Z duper: oic
2014-10-26T11:24:20Z pjb: When you have two machines implementing a given abstract program G, composed of a "processor" and a "program", the processor implements a language, and the program is written in a language (the language is the interface between the processor and the program).  So C(G) = C(G1)*C(P1) = C(G2)*C(P2).
2014-10-26T11:24:28Z duper: like (map 'list (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) '(0 1 2)) might not be O(n) ?
2014-10-26T11:25:22Z pjb: If you translate (compile) a language L1, into a language L2, you have: C(G) = C(G1)*C(L1->L2)*C(P2)
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2014-10-26T11:26:32Z pjb: If you have a high level language L1 and a low level language L2, C(L1)>C(L2).  When you write the same program G in either language, you get by C(G) = C(G1)*C(P1) = C(G2)*C(P2) that C(G1)<C(G2) : it's simplier to write a program in a high level programming language.
2014-10-26T11:26:38Z duper: pjb: That kinda looks like the formulas I see on the IETF's x509 working group for proving algorithmic accuracy, and resistance to attack and such in crypto..
2014-10-26T11:27:19Z pjb: If you implement CL in hardware, the problem is that you want to design a processor PCL such as C(PCL) = C(CL->ix86)*C(ix86) for example.
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2014-10-26T11:28:30Z pjb: C(PCL) = C(CL->clispVM)*C(clispVM)  since  C(clispVM)>C(ix86), C(CL->clispVM)<C(CL->ix86): the clisp CL compiler is simple (a single source file).
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2014-10-26T11:29:03Z pjb: But C(PCL) is much greater than C(ix86) or C(clispVM->ix86).
2014-10-26T11:29:39Z duper: greater... in computational complexity?
2014-10-26T11:29:47Z pjb: It's not impossible, nowadays, we have big FGPAs, and even bigger silicon real-estate available.
2014-10-26T11:29:51Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-26T11:30:14Z pjb: In complexity in general, there's a correlation with computational complexity.
2014-10-26T11:30:34Z pjb: That translates to the effort, (time*money) to invest to implement it.
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2014-10-26T12:36:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: For socket programming should I use implementation specific sockets or is their a portable library?
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2014-10-26T12:46:08Z Grue`: usocket is a popular choice
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2014-10-26T12:48:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: I thought usocket was no longer supported?
2014-10-26T12:49:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: maybe that was trivial-scokets, nevermind
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2014-10-26T14:28:08Z Paperboy: http://itch.io/games/genre-puzzle Free Games Here
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2014-10-26T14:31:37Z shka: ave tux!
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2014-10-26T15:54:57Z zarkone: hello all. Please, help me with dec->bin conversation. I convert dec to bin string by (format nil "~b" 5). But this doesn't work with floats: (format nil "~b" 0.5)
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2014-10-26T15:55:35Z zarkone: is there any simple solution..?
2014-10-26T15:55:46Z stassats: you have to decide first, what does it mean to print a float using binary
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2014-10-26T15:58:08Z zarkone: stassats: seems i didn't not understand what you mean.. Sure, I can write the func by myself, but hoped the problem has the elegant solution
2014-10-26T15:58:27Z stassats: you have to define the problem first
2014-10-26T15:58:31Z zarkone: sorry for my english
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2014-10-26T16:03:40Z Krystof: it probably does have an elegant solution
2014-10-26T16:03:46Z Krystof: integer-decode-float is probably part of it
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2014-10-26T18:27:40Z xristos: Xach: does quicklisp check the md5/sha hashes of things it downloads?
2014-10-26T18:27:54Z xristos: a quick grep doesn't show anything relevant
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2014-10-26T18:38:03Z xristos: ;;; TODO: check cryptographic digests too.
2014-10-26T18:38:04Z xristos: bleh
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2014-10-26T18:43:00Z xristos: rm -rf quicklisp, reinstalls OS
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2014-10-26T18:46:21Z Grue`: you weren't around when the most popular asdf system manager downloaded stuff based on links in a public wiki
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2014-10-26T18:48:16Z xristos: oh i most def was
2014-10-26T18:49:55Z xristos: asdf-install is a lot better than quicklisp in that regard
2014-10-26T18:50:11Z xristos: it could verify gpg signatured and it *warned* you on every download
2014-10-26T18:50:15Z xristos: so even the clueless could get clued in
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2014-10-26T18:51:04Z xristos: quicklisp is essentially running untrusted 3rd party code on your system, that any punk who can MITM http (not https), can deliver
2014-10-26T18:51:11Z xristos: do you see any warnings?
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2014-10-26T18:53:44Z xristos: oh it does check the file sizes
2014-10-26T18:53:57Z xristos: :)
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2014-10-26T19:02:45Z xristos: fortunately it's easy to fix locally but there really should be no excuse for this sort of thing, these days
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2014-10-26T19:03:00Z theotherstupidgu: hi
2014-10-26T19:03:01Z xristos: not sure what's on xach's mind, maybe he doesn;t want to introduce dependency
2014-10-26T19:03:08Z xristos: to say ironclad
2014-10-26T19:03:34Z Shinmera: if we can't even demand unicode everywhere these days I think you'll be hard pressed to demand security.
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2014-10-26T19:05:54Z xristos: i agree, i'm not demanding anything, especially security (no such thing)
2014-10-26T19:06:06Z xristos: all we can do is raise the bar to not include any punk who can mitm http
2014-10-26T19:06:17Z xristos: and there's a lot of them punks around ;p
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2014-10-26T19:09:09Z xristos: all we can do => *at the very least*
2014-10-26T19:09:13Z Shinmera: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for better security. I'm just saying that I'm not that irked by the fact that QL doesn't do all the much for it.
2014-10-26T19:09:25Z Shinmera: *that
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2014-10-26T20:09:36Z Xach: xristos: I'd like the situation to be better, for sure. It's a matter of time. Quicklisp source is signed, but it requires extra work to check.
2014-10-26T20:10:21Z Xach: xristos: I would guess that most people using asdf-install used the "continue anyway" restart on gpg signature errors.
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2014-10-26T20:10:36Z Xach: it was pretty hard to get the key setup bootstrapped.
2014-10-26T20:15:18Z Xach: xristos: For me, it was a choice between waiting indefinitely to get it working, or releasing what I had and hoping it would be good enough. Unfortuanately I haven't caught up with my security goals even after several years.
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2014-10-26T20:15:44Z Xach: It is a source of shame.
2014-10-26T20:16:30Z Xach: slyrus: blog down?
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2014-10-26T22:32:56Z xristos: Xach: re: quicklisp & hashes, you've done most of the work (the hashes are in releases.txt)
2014-10-26T22:33:03Z xristos: what's the holdup?
2014-10-26T22:34:26Z xristos: it's not perfect solution but it raises the bar beyond simple http mitm, to exploitation of your dist server
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2014-10-26T22:38:34Z xristos: if extra dependency is an issue, you could make it an optional feature (maybe even turn it on automatically when ironclad is installed?)
2014-10-26T22:39:04Z Xach: xristos: just spending the time to add the code.
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2014-10-26T22:39:23Z xristos: Xach: i can send you a pull request
2014-10-26T22:39:36Z xristos: took me 5 minutes to add here but i can work on it a little more
2014-10-26T22:39:52Z xristos: to make it more friendly/usable
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2014-10-26T22:41:02Z Xach: It needs to be built-in, not a dependency, and it has to be not awfully slow on ABCL and CLISP.
2014-10-26T22:41:38Z Xach: The content-sha1 is an sha1 of the contents of the tgz, not of the tgz file itself.
2014-10-26T22:42:00Z xristos: yeah i noticed, just check md5 for now
2014-10-26T22:42:10Z Xach: It computes that from tar blocks sorted in string< pathname order
2014-10-26T22:42:13Z xristos: that was the more friendly/usable part ;p
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