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2014-10-25T00:27:34Z Ryan_Burnside: So is macro expansion a defined thing for CL or is the exact implementation left up to the implementor?
2014-10-25T00:28:08Z Ryan_Burnside: It seems like you could expand the macros as you come to them, or expand each one in a macro function at once.
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2014-10-25T00:28:16Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: the exact form of macro expansions  is left to YOU, the PROGRAMMER!
2014-10-25T00:29:12Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: right, an interpreter could expand the macros each time it encounters them.  It would be quite dumb an intepreter.  You'd hit very hard on the head of the vendor who'd provide you such an interpreter.
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2014-10-25T00:29:49Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: on the other hand, compilers must expand the macro at compilation time, so given that all CL implementations have compilers…
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2014-10-25T00:30:33Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: have a look at: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm
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2014-10-25T00:31:21Z pjb: Ryan_Burnside: so even if you had a dumb interpreter, you could use COMPILE to perform the minimal compilation and get rid of the macros.
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2014-10-25T00:31:34Z Ryan_Burnside: Ah OK.
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2014-10-25T00:37:09Z momo-reina: what's the best practice for writing to a file? (write-sequence) or just (format)?
2014-10-25T00:37:25Z Xach: momo-reina: depends on what you want to write.
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2014-10-25T00:37:37Z Xach: momo-reina: and how important it is to do it quickly.
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2014-10-25T00:38:24Z Xach: format is usually fine when you're writing character data. there's also write-char, write-string, write-line, and the print family.
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2014-10-25T00:43:59Z Ryan_Burnside: I seem to recall slurping being the slow part when it comes to files.
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2014-10-25T00:56:28Z pjb: What should we do of all those "people" who want to use "maintainable" software using "best practice"?
2014-10-25T00:57:07Z pjb: s/maintainable/maintained/ It's so alien I can't even write it right.
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2014-10-25T00:59:03Z Ryan_Burnside: They sound like 9 - 5 suits who don't really know how to program and gobble up whatever the latest buzzwords are.
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2014-10-25T00:59:36Z Ryan_Burnside: Ask them about "leveraging scalable markets for best ROI"
2014-10-25T00:59:41Z pjb: So tightening their ties should do it.
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2014-10-25T01:00:10Z Ryan_Burnside: Functional style has become a buzzword lately in business, nobody knows what the heck it means they are all just blurting it out.
2014-10-25T01:00:23Z Ryan_Burnside: "Functional is the new OOP" etc
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2014-10-25T01:05:36Z nyef: As far as I'm concerned "functional" means "working". Nothing to do with programming style, everything to do with getting the job done.
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2014-10-25T01:06:42Z nyef: Similarly, all code can be maintained, it's just that some code isn't worth the effort to maintain.
2014-10-25T01:07:26Z momo-reina: Xach: so for example with QL's make-project, where several files are created with some comments, (format) is enough?
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2014-10-25T01:13:36Z zRecursive: maybe not enough, but convenient
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2014-10-25T01:15:49Z Vutral: hm
2014-10-25T01:15:53Z pjb: Exactly.
2014-10-25T01:16:17Z pjb: We definitely more a more state of the art operation to write the bytes or the characters into the file much harder.
2014-10-25T01:16:45Z pjb: Clearly, format is not up to the task, it only half write the files.  Assume it uses a pen instead of a pencil.
2014-10-25T01:17:10Z pjb: State of the art would be to use a burin to engrave definitely the files.
2014-10-25T01:17:33Z pjb: (rotatef pen pencil).
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2014-10-25T02:24:45Z bjorkintosh: functional is the new OOP? since when?
2014-10-25T02:25:07Z bjorkintosh: i thought OOP was the new OOP.
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2014-10-25T02:32:34Z Fare: jasom: there are -p functions in the standard that return a useful value
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2014-10-25T02:48:09Z Fare: not just MEMBER, but also DIGIT-CHAR-P for instance.
2014-10-25T02:48:21Z Fare: OOP ==> NIL
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2014-10-25T03:10:28Z bjorkintosh: it reigns :)
2014-10-25T03:10:48Z bjorkintosh: hell, CL is happy to accommodate it.
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2014-10-25T03:21:22Z JokesOnYou77: How can I restart slime?
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2014-10-25T03:22:15Z JokesOnYou77: nvm I found it
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2014-10-25T03:23:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-10-25T03:26:53Z PuercoPop: JokesOnYou77: there is a shortcut, if you press ',' in the REPL.
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2014-10-25T03:55:04Z drmeister: Good morning beach
2014-10-25T03:55:54Z drmeister: I was looking at emscripten today.  I'm curious how a garbage collector would run within javascript which has it's own garbage collector.
2014-10-25T03:56:13Z drmeister: its
2014-10-25T03:59:17Z bjorkintosh: slowly.
2014-10-25T03:59:36Z brucem: bjorkintosh: not all that terribly.
2014-10-25T03:59:49Z bjorkintosh: how would it pull that off?
2014-10-25T03:59:58Z brucem: drmeister: I can explain if you like (given that I do a lot of work on emscripten) ...
2014-10-25T04:00:16Z PuercoPop: drmeister: wouldn't it be similar to lisp? you make sure you don't cons? (easier said that done of course). But in theory they could make an array and keep an index of where the last value that you care about is
2014-10-25T04:00:25Z PuercoPop: and probably make sure you aren't using objects
2014-10-25T04:01:05Z drmeister: brucem: Do you think MPS would run at a reasonable speed within javascript generated by emscripten?
2014-10-25T04:01:23Z brucem: drmeister: emscripten doesn't interop with normal JS in the way that you might think ... it has a heap of its own which it represents as a typed array (and multiple views onto that typed array of other types) ... so if you were to look into the generated code, you'd fine a HEAP8 object, which is a big typed array of bytes that represents the heap / memory. There are views on it HEAP16, HEAP32 and some others for floats, etc.
2014-10-25T04:01:40Z brucem: drmeister: I've done a bit of work to get MPS running on emscripten, but not recently and it surely doesn't work out of the box.
2014-10-25T04:02:07Z brucem: drmeister: so the GC running on emscripten isn't doing GC of JS objects ... but of things you allocate within emscripen in that HEAP8 array.
2014-10-25T04:02:54Z drmeister: I was watching some videos on emscripten today - I get the HEAP8 thing - it sounds crazy to run a C++ program running MPS lowered to LLVM-IR translated into JS fiddling with HEAP8 arrays.
2014-10-25T04:03:17Z brucem: drmeister: it is. but it works and reasonably well.
2014-10-25T04:04:00Z drmeister: Somewhere in there I'm sure there's a Minecraft redstone computer holding everything together.
2014-10-25T04:04:13Z brucem: drmeister: explaining *why* it works reasonably well is outside the scope of this channel though probably. :)
2014-10-25T04:04:17Z drmeister: So it does work reasonably well?
2014-10-25T04:05:02Z drmeister: The benchmarks they showed said C++ code runs 1.5 times slower.  That doesn't sound bad at all.
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2014-10-25T04:06:34Z drmeister: Do you think it would be possible to compile all of the Clasp C++ code (+MPS) to LLVM-IR and the Clasp Common Lisp code to LLVM-IR and then run all of that through emscripten and run the resulting code in a browser?
2014-10-25T04:06:42Z brucem: drmeister: it will depend on a lot of things ... including which browser and browser version ... it is probably a somewhat reasonable target for a Lisp environment though, although some aspects would be tricky perhaps.
2014-10-25T04:07:15Z brucem: drmeister: well, I get the impression that the Clasp executable is likely to be really large ... is that the case?
2014-10-25T04:07:40Z drmeister: Probably - hang on.
2014-10-25T04:08:25Z drmeister: Is 65 megabytes large these days?
2014-10-25T04:08:31Z brucem: drmeister: Depending on who your target for this is... that can be an issue. Download sizes, time required for JS to parse and (perhaps) do AOT compilation ... once things are large, all of this is a bit more painful.
2014-10-25T04:09:02Z brucem: drmeister: well, imagine that you were downloading 30-70M of JS ... no way to tell until you try it, I guess.
2014-10-25T04:09:38Z drmeister: Clasp executable = 65 megabytes   Compiled Common Lisp code = 17.3 megabytes.
2014-10-25T04:10:26Z drmeister: The Clasp executable is mostly statically linked.
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2014-10-25T04:13:37Z brucem: drmeister: get a grant to fund someone to try it out :)
2014-10-25T04:16:10Z brucem: drmeister: it would take a pretty serious amount of time to try out and work through ... and a lot of unknowns ... and I'm not sure how to deal with the JIT aspects of Clasp vs. emscripten (suspect that's all non-working territory) ... if everything was AOT, it'd be easier, but still a good bit of work.
2014-10-25T04:28:42Z beach: pjb: Am I understanding what you are saying in LEP correctly, that the reason you want detached type tags is so that you can use libc more easily?
2014-10-25T04:29:50Z drmeister: Yeah - there are a lot of unknowns.  MPS runs a separate thread - JS doesn't really do threads AFAIK
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2014-10-25T04:47:06Z protist: drmeister: how did you go about getting your grant?
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2014-10-25T04:47:17Z protist: drmeister: when I saw the note about the grant I thought "cool" :)
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2014-10-25T04:47:51Z protist: drmeister: do you have phd?...or are grants attainable for a Bsc doing work on his own time?
2014-10-25T04:48:46Z drmeister: protist: There's no grant.  brucem was making a suggestion
2014-10-25T04:49:23Z protist: drmeister: i remember the github page mentioning grants in the credits section or something
2014-10-25T04:49:26Z brucem: drmeister: MPS doesn't have to have a separate thread ... but I have to run out for the afternoon, so we can chat about it later. :)
2014-10-25T04:49:38Z protist: drmeister: something like the department of defense or something...really surprised me
2014-10-25T04:51:14Z drmeister: protist: That's for basic research in nanotechnology and synthetic chemistry.  While my research lab was supported by those funding agencies I was writing Clasp.  The responsible thing to do is to cite the funding sources that supported us while I wrote Clasp.
2014-10-25T04:51:54Z protist: drmeister: ah I see
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2014-10-25T04:55:51Z drmeister: protist: I run a lab that currently comprises of ten synthetic organic graduate students. We are developing a new technology for making medicines and catalysts (molecules that make other molecules). I have been funded over the years by the National Institute of Health(NIGMS) the National Science Foundation and the Department of Defense.  That's my day job.
2014-10-25T04:57:05Z drmeister: In my copious spare time (and because I write code to relax) I wrote Clasp - the first Common Lisp implementation that interoperates with C++ and uses LLVM as the backend.   I wrote clasp to help us design our molecules.
2014-10-25T04:58:42Z protist: drmeister: cool :)
2014-10-25T04:59:01Z protist: drmeister: so the 'dr' in your name isn't just for fun?
2014-10-25T04:59:29Z drmeister: Nope.
2014-10-25T04:59:54Z drmeister: It's because "meister" was taken.
2014-10-25T05:00:23Z protist: on a related note...what do yahl think of the term "computer scientist" when used to mean simply "one with and interest in and who studies computer science"?
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2014-10-25T05:00:54Z protist: under that definition drmeister would be a computer scientist
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2014-10-25T05:01:14Z protist: I will withhold my opinion, I want to hear others
2014-10-25T05:02:10Z drmeister: I think that term is used to define people with a PhD in "Computer Science".  My PhD is in Biophysics.
2014-10-25T05:02:20Z iloark: I find the academic study of computers as a concept fascinating. Every other scientific field is about learning the laws that nature already obeys, but most of computer science is learning the laws of systems built by people.
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2014-10-25T05:03:34Z protist: drmeister: it is (generally) used that way...what do you think of it being used differently?
2014-10-25T05:04:48Z drmeister: I'm more interested in building things than defining things.
2014-10-25T05:05:32Z protist: drmeister: how long did it take you to make CLASP?
2014-10-25T05:05:39Z protist: drmeister: was it an individual effort?
2014-10-25T05:06:44Z drmeister: I've been working on Clasp for 3-4 years.  It's an individual effort if you don't count all the libraries and code from ECL that I use.
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2014-10-25T05:10:16Z protist: drmeister: how stable would you say it is now?
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2014-10-25T05:11:09Z drmeister: It's hard to say. I use it every day but I tend to do the same things over and over again.
2014-10-25T05:12:06Z drmeister: I'll have a new release out soon (months) that should be a lot faster once I incorporate beach's Cleavir front end. I'm really excited about that.
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2014-10-25T07:58:30Z beach: Hmm, this is getting complicated.  A function name can be "undefined", "partially defined as a function" (the information in the compilation environment), "defined as a function", "defined as a macro", and "defined as a special operator".
2014-10-25T07:58:39Z beach: Some of these can happen simultaneously.
2014-10-25T07:58:45Z beach: macro and special operator.
2014-10-25T07:59:15Z beach: Also, it can have a proclaimed type, some inline information, an associated compiler macro.
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2014-10-25T08:00:00Z beach: I need to decide which of these can happen simultaneously, and how each piece of information is altered by the use of functions/macros such as fmakunbound, (setf fdefinition), etc.
2014-10-25T08:00:38Z beach: Some people here already told me that it is fine to proclaim the type even though the function is still undefined.
2014-10-25T08:00:53Z beach: But if it is defined as a macro, it is explicitly not allowed.
2014-10-25T08:01:30Z beach: So, I take it if there is a proclaimed type, and the name is defined as a macro, then the type information is erased?
2014-10-25T08:01:56Z beach: Or is it preserved for some day in the future when someone will do (SETF FDEFINITION)?
2014-10-25T08:02:18Z beach: Same question for inline information and compiler macro.
2014-10-25T08:04:11Z beach: It's complicated, but I think it is important to decide what is supposed to happen for a particular implementation.  In this case SICL.  But I would like some input so that I don't decide something I have to regret later.
2014-10-25T08:11:33Z beach: I guess I need to write a proposal and then submit it here.
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2014-10-25T09:25:50Z splittist: beach: if nothing else, writing it down will collect the various spec references in one place. Some of the discussion around proclaim/declaim and file compilation in the 'issues' gives some insight into what the committee was grappling with, if not towards.
2014-10-25T09:26:44Z beach: I'll definitely check the issues.
2014-10-25T09:26:57Z beach: I never remember to look at those.
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2014-10-25T09:48:23Z beach: I guess the first thing is to define all possible "states".  For instance that there can be no type information when a name is defined as a macro.
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2014-10-25T17:02:10Z faheem_: This is just idle curiousity, but could one easily use CL to split an XML file as asked here? http://unix.stackexchange.com/q/164197/
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2014-10-25T17:02:41Z faheem_: I know CL can trivially parse XML because they are so similar.
2014-10-25T17:02:49Z p_l: not trivially
2014-10-25T17:03:02Z stassats: there's nothing similar about cl and xml
2014-10-25T17:03:04Z p_l: however, cxml does a pretty good job
2014-10-25T17:03:19Z faheem_: oh
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2014-10-25T17:03:36Z p_l: most importantly, the input file given in that question is *NOT* valid XML
2014-10-25T17:03:50Z faheem_: http://common-lisp.net/project/cxml/ ?
2014-10-25T17:03:58Z p_l: yes
2014-10-25T17:03:58Z faheem_: p_l: so the comment said.
2014-10-25T17:04:04Z faheem_: p_l: thanks
2014-10-25T17:04:42Z p_l: there are various "APIs" available for CXML that allow different patterns of use (think DOM vs. SAX etc.)
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2014-10-25T17:05:39Z faheem_: p_l: ok. if the file *was* valid XML, would splitting it with with CXML be straightforward?
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2014-10-25T17:07:07Z p_l: faheem_: probably. It's been some time since I've used XML parsing
2014-10-25T17:07:08Z Grue`: even splitting it with ppcre:split would be straightforward
2014-10-25T17:07:53Z Grue`: as long as the outer elements are the only ones that start at the beginning of the line
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2014-10-25T17:10:03Z Ryan_Burnside: I kind of wanted to try recursively parsing XML once but then I realized all the little exceptions XML can have in syntax and decided it wasn't worth the mental trauma.
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2014-10-25T17:13:06Z faheem_: Ok, thanks for the feedback. I've got zero interest in attempting it. Was just curious. XML makes me want to scream and run, so anything that makes working with it less painful would be useful.
2014-10-25T17:13:55Z Grue`: faheem_: basically http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cxml/klacks.html
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2014-10-25T17:15:22Z faheem_: Grue`: ok. thanks for the link.
2014-10-25T17:15:50Z Shinmera: faheem_: You may also give Plump a shot. http://shinmera.github.io/plump/
2014-10-25T17:16:05Z faheem_: Shinmera: ok
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2014-10-25T17:18:30Z Shinmera: faheem_: And as for searching through/manipulating it, there's http://shinmera.github.io/lquery/
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2014-10-25T17:19:07Z faheem_: Shinmera: wow, thats a lot of different libraries.
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2014-10-25T17:20:25Z faheem_: could one use SLICE to split?
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2014-10-25T18:16:49Z Ryan_Burnside: I recently watched a talk on Python metaprogramming where they added meth
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2014-10-25T18:17:12Z Ryan_Burnside: whoops let me explain, I hit enter mid sentence in the wrong window.
2014-10-25T18:17:30Z joga: nah that sounded fine
2014-10-25T18:17:30Z Ryan_Burnside: I recently watched a talk on Python metaprogramming where they added methods to modify the class objects at runtime.
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2014-10-25T18:18:42Z prxq: Ryan_Burnside: and they were like "breakthrough! this never existed before in any language!"
2014-10-25T18:19:09Z Ryan_Burnside: Well the guy used Emacs to write Python code in and mentioned Lisp beforehand...
2014-10-25T18:20:05Z Ryan_Burnside: He mentioned that when using metaprogramming Emacs provides more power due to the proximity to Lisp functions while running it.
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2014-10-25T18:20:22Z Ryan_Burnside: Something about the Python drawing from elisp's power.
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2014-10-25T18:20:25Z Ryan_Burnside: lol
2014-10-25T18:21:27Z Ryan_Burnside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPiWg5jSoZI
2014-10-25T18:21:34Z Ryan_Burnside: Offtopic and meant for another window but here...
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2014-10-25T20:49:21Z serichsen: Good evening!
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