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2014-10-22T00:03:06Z Bike: clhs 22.3.6.1
2014-10-22T00:03:06Z specbot: Tilde T: Tabulate: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cfa.htm
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2014-10-22T00:04:03Z JokesOnYou77: I looked at that, but it didn't really help.  Could you give me an example in => out?
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2014-10-22T00:05:19Z Bike: (format t "foo:~10tbar") => bar starts in the tenth column.
2014-10-22T00:05:40Z Bike: the second argument is for what to do if output is already past that column.
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2014-10-22T00:07:50Z JokesOnYou77: Ahhh! I've never actually used a format directive that took an argument like that.
2014-10-22T00:07:52Z JokesOnYou77: Thank you
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2014-10-22T00:17:47Z gabriel_laddel: what is the correct way to do this? (let* ((*package* (find-package 'stumpwm))) (message-no-timeout "foobar")) that is, bind a package within a defun in some sort of block.
2014-10-22T00:18:49Z zRecursive: gabriel_laddel: why not (in-package :stumpwm) ?
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2014-10-22T00:22:41Z drmeister: Testing
2014-10-22T00:22:48Z gabriel_laddel: zRecursive: one sec...
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2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel: zRecursive:  I need to automatically download quicklisp which asks the user for a prompt when writing out the init file via `ql:add-to-init-file'. I don't know how to programmatically skip the prompt, other than monkeypatching the function to a different prompt-less version. the problem with this is that I need to do it after loading 'quicklisp.lisp', which has just been downloaded from the internet. if I were to in
2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel: clude the monkeypatch in my lisp code and say, call a function `monkeypatch-quicklisp' this necessitates that I create the package beforehand with all the symbols in the correct quicklisp packages etc. I don't fully understand the semantics of `defpackage' atm, making this a pain and would prefer not to do this in any case as this would tightly bind it to quicklisp's current implementation.
2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel: what I would like to express is:
2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel: (in-package #:cl)
2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel: (defun foobar ()
2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel:   (in-package #:stumpwm)
2014-10-22T00:27:43Z gabriel_laddel:   (message-no-timeout "test")
2014-10-22T00:27:44Z gabriel_laddel:   (in-package #:cl))
2014-10-22T00:27:44Z gabriel_laddel: (foobar)
2014-10-22T00:27:45Z gabriel_laddel: this throws, obviously.
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2014-10-22T00:30:17Z zRecursive: You can (stumpwm:message-no-timeout "test") instead of (in-package #:stumpwm)
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2014-10-22T00:32:33Z gabriel_laddel: zRecursive: well, yes. but this runs into the same issue, the package does not yet exist. I suppose that I'm not getting around this without creating the package... though I suppose I could store it in a string and eval it?
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2014-10-22T00:34:03Z gabriel_laddel: zRecursive: no need to spend any time thinking about this. string eval'ing works for my purposes.
2014-10-22T00:34:16Z zRecursive: ...
2014-10-22T00:34:51Z gabriel_laddel: thanks for the help.
2014-10-22T00:38:32Z JokesOnYou77: Is there a way to jump to the next iteration in a dolist?
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2014-10-22T00:42:21Z PuercoPop: JokesOnYou77: why wouldn't when/unless suffice?
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2014-10-22T01:06:58Z JokesOnYou77: PuercoPop, That is exactly what i did when I stopped whining and started coding again :P
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2014-10-22T03:26:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-10-22T03:28:20Z _chupish_: good morrow @beach
2014-10-22T03:28:30Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-10-22T03:28:41Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2014-10-22T03:33:19Z zRecursive: howdy
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2014-10-22T03:44:03Z beach: Hmm, this idea of writing a version of EVAL in (say) SBCL but that evaluates forms in a different (first-class) global environment makes my head spin.
2014-10-22T03:45:33Z nyef: Isn't this the classic "lisp-in-lisp" mind-game that several lisp books have played?
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2014-10-22T03:46:14Z beach: I believe it is.  But they use lists as the only data type.
2014-10-22T03:46:15Z nyef: (Examples include Lisp by Winston (or was it Winston and Horne?) and SICP.)
2014-10-22T03:46:19Z Zhivago: The old meta-circular tower of evaluators.
2014-10-22T03:47:04Z beach: I would like for things like PACKAGE-NAME to work.
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2014-10-22T03:48:54Z beach: ... and I want it to return a struct that simulates the SICL heap-object header, and the header should contain references to a class object and a host vector containing the characters.
2014-10-22T03:49:56Z nyef: ... What if you set it up as a cross-process debugger?
2014-10-22T03:50:13Z nyef: As in literally using ptrace to affect a foreign address space and register set?
2014-10-22T03:50:35Z nyef: Or at least the address space, if you're not at the point where you can compile to native code yet?
2014-10-22T03:50:46Z beach: Almost.
2014-10-22T03:51:21Z beach: So you are saying use the host development environment, but use a totally native target system?
2014-10-22T03:51:39Z nyef: Yeah.
2014-10-22T03:51:51Z beach: Interesting idea.
2014-10-22T03:52:05Z nyef: That said, writing the FFI bindings for ptrace() might be a bit much.
2014-10-22T03:52:42Z beach: When I was thinking of using the native target system, I was thinking of writing a simulator for the target processor running in the host.
2014-10-22T03:52:51Z beach: But that's a lot of work too.
2014-10-22T03:53:10Z beach: On the other hand, it may be required work anyway, for DISASSEMBLE.
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2014-10-22T03:55:54Z nyef: Another option might be to write an HIR or MIR interpreter in C, just to get an end-to-end system going.
2014-10-22T03:56:18Z beach: Yeah, I thought about that as well.  Could be independently useful too.
2014-10-22T03:57:07Z beach: ... for platforms that don't yet have a native backend.
2014-10-22T03:58:03Z beach: Would it be best then to turn the HIR or MIR into a linear notation, or keep the graph structure in C?
2014-10-22T03:58:03Z beach:  
2014-10-22T03:58:13Z nyef: As an SBCL hacker, I'm simultaneously scornful at the idea of a useful platform without a native backend and appreciative at the idea of short-circuiting all of the work involved in bringing the system up on another CPU type.
2014-10-22T03:58:39Z beach: Sure, I can see that.
2014-10-22T03:59:49Z nyef: As far as interpreter design goes, flattening the HIR or MIR amounts to producing a bytecode compiler.
2014-10-22T04:00:05Z beach: Indeed.
2014-10-22T04:00:25Z nyef: Which, at least in theory, increases locality for interpreting the operation stream.
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2014-10-22T04:00:59Z nyef: But it's an optimization, which means that it's extra work and could easily be more fragile.
2014-10-22T04:01:18Z beach: Right.  And I am not sure one should be concerned about performance for such a backend.
2014-10-22T04:02:00Z nyef: You should if it's your ONLY or PRIMARY backend, but if it's a stopgap for getting the system bootstrapped or until a native backend is available then that's another matter.
2014-10-22T04:02:17Z beach: Sounds right.
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2014-10-22T04:02:44Z nyef: On the other hand, "all code is production code".
2014-10-22T04:03:00Z beach: ?
2014-10-22T04:04:01Z nyef: Stopgap measures have a tendency to last far, far longer than their implementors intended.
2014-10-22T04:04:25Z nyef: Temporary hacks to get things limping along in development tend to end up in production.
2014-10-22T04:04:36Z beach: I have seen that, yes. :)
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2014-10-22T04:06:24Z nyef: As soon as you release an end-to-end system, even running on an HIR interpreter in C with a cheney collector or similar, someone's going to try running all of quicklisp on it and complain that it's slow and incomplete. (-:
2014-10-22T04:06:54Z beach: Heh!  Better not release it then!
2014-10-22T04:07:25Z nyef: And the gentoo users will simply run the version from your github repository.
2014-10-22T04:08:05Z beach: I guess I don't know the stereotypical Gentoo user.
2014-10-22T04:09:13Z nyef: Okay, it's actually worse: the incomplete system will likely end up in portage, the gentoo package management system.
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2014-10-22T04:10:13Z beach: Yeah, might as well give up on SICL altogether.
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2014-10-22T04:10:56Z nyef: Eh, or give up on supporting the poor, poor gentoo ricers.
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2014-10-22T04:11:14Z nyef sighs.
2014-10-22T04:11:35Z nyef: I don't know what's been going on the past couple of days, but trying to stream video has simply sucked.
2014-10-22T04:12:09Z beach: I take it you are a Gentoo user?
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2014-10-22T04:13:36Z nyef: I was at one point. Eventually I simply gave up and moved to debian.
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2014-10-22T04:19:51Z nyef: Actually, gentoo was the system that suckered me back to running linux instead of freebsd.
2014-10-22T04:20:50Z work_op: nyef u def seem like a gentoo kind of guy
2014-10-22T04:21:15Z nyef: ... Oh?
2014-10-22T04:21:22Z work_op: thats a good thing
2014-10-22T04:21:52Z nyef: I'm not seeing it.
2014-10-22T04:26:33Z work_op: is there a way to convert a base 10 to base X without changing *print-base*?
2014-10-22T04:26:56Z nyef: (format nil "~36R" ...)
2014-10-22T04:27:18Z nyef: (format nil "~36R" 44596)
2014-10-22T04:28:08Z nyef: If you want a variable base, there's probably some useful tweak that you could use there.
2014-10-22T04:28:43Z work_op: oh
2014-10-22T04:28:53Z work_op: that is smart
2014-10-22T04:29:15Z nyef: ... Neat. ~10R is unspecified, but guaranteed not to use base 10.
2014-10-22T04:30:08Z nyef: Except that ~10R is also specified to be equivalent to ~D.
2014-10-22T04:31:01Z nyef: Ooh. Try (format nil "~VR" 36 44596).
2014-10-22T04:31:58Z joshe: haha
2014-10-22T04:32:42Z nyef: Of course, these are actually specified to bind *print-base*.
2014-10-22T04:37:59Z work_op: yeah
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2014-10-22T04:38:30Z work_op: so without some hacking there is no way to jump from base 64 to base 256 or anything like that
2014-10-22T04:38:43Z nyef: Maximum base, IIRC, is 36.
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2014-10-22T04:38:51Z work_op: by default, yes
2014-10-22T04:38:58Z nyef: By specification.
2014-10-22T04:39:07Z work_op: because it defaults to alphanumerals thru spec
2014-10-22T04:39:08Z work_op: yeah
2014-10-22T04:39:23Z nyef: If you want a higher base, you'll have to do your own splitting out into digits and whatnot.
2014-10-22T04:39:28Z work_op: right
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2014-10-22T04:39:47Z work_op: might be worth the effort though, maybe somebody needs a tool like that
2014-10-22T04:40:16Z nyef: If somebody needs a tool like that, they can spend the couple of minutes required to implement it.
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2014-10-22T04:41:32Z work_op: right
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2014-10-22T04:52:39Z work_op: http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm
2014-10-22T04:52:54Z work_op: from the mind of Mark Tarver...
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2014-10-22T04:54:38Z nyef: Ah, right. I've read this somewhat recently.
2014-10-22T04:57:54Z work_op: mark is the twat behind shen, but he is a decent writer
2014-10-22T04:58:02Z work_op: i really enjoy most of his essays
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2014-10-22T04:59:29Z nyef: Okay, I'm out of time for tonight.
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2014-10-22T05:55:02Z aap__ is now known as aap_
2014-10-22T05:55:45Z PuercoPop: is there a way to list all instances of a class without doing the bookeeping myself?
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2014-10-22T06:01:15Z White_Flame: I think you could use update-instance-for-redefined-class as a visitor to the instances
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2014-10-22T06:06:01Z PuercoPop: White_Flame: I don't want to redefine the class, just get a list of all the current instances of the it.
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2014-10-22T06:06:22Z White_Flame: right, do a dummy or innocuous redefinition.  This would trigger a walk of the instances
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2014-10-22T06:13:15Z White_Flame: also, using a built-in facility like that should be properly thread-aware/safe compared with your own list management
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2014-10-22T06:48:19Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144124
2014-10-22T06:48:28Z chitofan: does anybody understand how JOIN is supposed to work?
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2014-10-22T06:51:04Z zickzackv: chitofan: mmh, depending on the first type of a list it adds the list (numbers) or creates one list (first type is a cons)
2014-10-22T06:51:17Z zickzackv: chitofan: just, guessing, not trying
2014-10-22T06:51:49Z chitofan: (join '(3 4 5))  gives me (3 4 5)                       and (join '(3) '(4))   gives me   (3 4)
2014-10-22T06:51:51Z chitofan: :(
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2014-10-22T06:53:02Z zickzackv: (join 1 2 3)
2014-10-22T06:53:02Z zickzackv: 6
2014-10-22T06:53:26Z zickzackv:  (join '(1 2) '(3 4))
2014-10-22T06:53:26Z zickzackv: (1 2 3 4)
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2014-10-22T06:54:12Z chitofan: ooh
2014-10-22T06:54:25Z chitofan: in that case, would replacing cons with list make any difference to the functionality?
2014-10-22T06:55:01Z zickzackv: chitofan: in the function joiner?
2014-10-22T06:55:46Z chitofan: yup
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2014-10-22T06:57:57Z ggole: Yes, it would work with empty lists
2014-10-22T06:58:50Z chitofan: oh, ok :)
2014-10-22T06:59:18Z ggole: It's not really a well designed function
2014-10-22T07:00:23Z chitofan: just a book example
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2014-10-22T07:03:52Z zickzackv: chitofan: joiner does not work for other sequence objects (vectors, e.g.)
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2014-10-22T07:05:27Z ggole: And it doesn't (can't, by design) return the zero for an empty argument list
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2014-10-22T11:23:58Z |3b|: are there any CL network resource monitoring tools? (something like munin,nagios,etc)
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2014-10-22T12:02:49Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-10-22T12:03:45Z moore33: howdy
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2014-10-22T12:20:54Z p_l: |3b|: don't think so
2014-10-22T12:21:30Z |3b|: guess i'll have to settle for trying to get data out of one of the existing ones instead
2014-10-22T12:21:44Z p_l is currently using ruby-based stuff for that, though one can hook in anything, including CL
2014-10-22T12:22:15Z p_l: |3b|: what kind of data are you trying to get, and are you free to choose monitoring solution?
2014-10-22T12:22:43Z |3b|: all kinds, not having to think about specifics is one of the reasons for looking for existing projects
2014-10-22T12:22:50Z |3b|: and can pick whatever
2014-10-22T12:23:41Z |3b|: currently have munin, but i'd prefer something that doesn't compact old data which i think it does
2014-10-22T12:24:08Z |3b| doesn't have enough machines to care about saving space, and being able to look at historical data for some things would be nice
2014-10-22T12:24:14Z p_l: well, Sensu is more of a framework, but it's *very* flexible - basic data about checks, nodes etc. is also available over HTTP API (with a bit of redis if you want to), and it's easy to make it send stuff wherever
2014-10-22T12:24:39Z p_l: however, it doesn't do data storage by itself, that's something you'd route events elsewhere (as metrics checks etc.)
2014-10-22T12:24:53Z p_l: some people use logstash/elasticsearch for that
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2014-10-22T12:43:25Z mosdd: hello
2014-10-22T12:43:41Z mosdd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/144127
2014-10-22T12:43:46Z mosdd: why am I getting infinite loop
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2014-10-22T12:45:25Z stassats: that doesn't look like a common lisp implementation
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2014-10-22T12:51:31Z nyef: ... it doesn't?
2014-10-22T12:51:44Z nyef: I'll admit, the error message is a bit odd.
2014-10-22T12:52:49Z stassats: nyef: no lexical variables does make it look like not a cl implementation
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2014-10-22T12:53:03Z nyef: And that LOOP semantic isn't right for CL.
2014-10-22T12:53:21Z stassats: and the error messages suggests that it's emacs lisp
2014-10-22T12:53:28Z nyef: Okay, I'll buy that.
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2014-10-22T12:53:51Z nyef: Which would mean that the value of PRED is dynamically bound?
2014-10-22T12:54:06Z stassats: which means that there's no closure
2014-10-22T12:54:30Z mosdd: it is elisp
2014-10-22T12:54:32Z nyef: Right, okay.
2014-10-22T12:54:45Z nyef: mosdd: Sounds like you should be asking in #emacs then.
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2014-10-22T12:55:57Z nyef: Wow, is this the kind of thing that everyone was dealing with before Steele came up with his little scheme?
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2014-10-22T13:03:01Z mosdd: if there is no closure what is pred in lambda?
2014-10-22T13:03:21Z mosdd: and why am I not getting "no such symbol" error instead of infinite loop
2014-10-22T13:05:05Z nyef: At that point, PRED is the lambda itself.
2014-10-22T13:05:23Z nyef: Because it was rebound when calling whatever that other function was.
2014-10-22T13:05:32Z moore33: There are closures, but they don't close over anything  useful :)
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2014-10-22T13:06:20Z moore33: So, not closures but "downward funargs"
2014-10-22T13:06:21Z mosdd: so pred is take-until/lambda is actually pred in take-while?
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2014-10-22T13:09:37Z mosdd: so pred in take-until/lambda is actually pred in take-while?
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2014-10-22T15:31:15Z pjb`: nyef: scheme didn't solve anything: http://xkcd.com/927/
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2014-10-22T15:31:23Z pjb`: nyef: at least CL served to deprecate the other lisps.
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2014-10-22T15:31:57Z pjb`: In that respect, we can say that CL is one of the most successful standards (it's even about the only criticism against it).
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2014-10-22T15:34:21Z dlowe: elisp actually has lexical closures now, but you enable it per-buffer or on a call to eval
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2014-10-22T16:16:16Z akkad_: the full clhs in org-mode org-drill :P
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2014-10-22T16:39:09Z pjb: akkad_: what's wrong with info mode?
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2014-10-22T16:39:18Z pjb: akkad_: isn't org-mode basically read-WRITE?
2014-10-22T16:41:35Z nyef: pjb: org-drill is a spaced-repetition flashcard system.
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2014-10-22T17:35:01Z drewc: elisp is getting closer and closer to CL everyday. I like a lisp-N with lexical scope myself, and I really enjoy using the same code for both CL and elisp.
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2014-10-22T17:36:35Z drewc: "... it's really great that Emacs is finally supporting lexical scoping. It's still not Common Lisp but it's a huge improvement." -- http://irreal.org/blog/?p=628
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2014-10-22T18:11:21Z akkad_: pjb: to learn the items. :P
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2014-10-22T18:20:17Z drewc: akkad_: and, since you can write as well as read, you can correct it!
2014-10-22T18:21:36Z drewc: akkad_: I am naturally thinking of PROG2 ... "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form." ... imagine that!
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2014-10-22T18:32:24Z akkad_: org-drill with offline clhs was my only goal. :P and correct. problem is it's copywrited to hell and back
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2014-10-22T18:53:21Z drewc: akkad_: What you 'do' is take the dpans, and make an org-drill file with it using some sort of parsing ... then you can say "Download the dpans, --load spec.lisp, and there you go!"... if you care about legally distributing such a thing.
2014-10-22T18:55:29Z akkad_: good point. I've got the elisp I used
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2014-10-22T18:56:07Z dlowe: Anyone know if there os a quickloadable dns resolver library?
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2014-10-22T19:02:07Z stassats: iolib?
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2014-10-22T19:33:04Z drewc: dlowe: (iolib/sockets:dns-message-answer (iolib/sockets:dns-query "google.ca" :nameservers '("8.8.8.8"))) => #(#<"google.ca." A IN: (263 . 173.194.33.151)> ...)
2014-10-22T19:33:04Z drewc:   
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2014-10-22T19:33:43Z drewc: dlowe: and, fwiw, #iolib does exist.
2014-10-22T19:34:29Z drewc went in that chan a number of days ago, and has not asked a question yet but may at some point! :)
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2014-10-22T19:39:16Z dlowe: I was thinking of something more self-contained, but that will work too
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2014-10-22T19:50:15Z Ryan_Burnside: Hello folks. Anyone able to give me some feedback on my scheme style?
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2014-10-22T19:50:20Z Ryan_Burnside: Usually I use CL.
2014-10-22T19:50:48Z Ryan_Burnside: https://github.com/RyanBurnside/GIMP-Turtle/blob/master/Turtle.scm
2014-10-22T19:51:04Z nyef: Umm... Isn't this a question more for #scheme?
2014-10-22T19:51:21Z nyef: After all, usually WE use CL as well.
2014-10-22T19:54:17Z Ryan_Burnside: Didn't realize there was a #scheme. I thought the name lisp was inclusive.
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2014-10-22T20:01:46Z dlowe: Use ##lisp for inclusive lisp
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2014-10-22T20:02:19Z dlowe: #lisp is common lisp for historical reasons
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2014-10-22T20:07:04Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: one of the nice things about IRC is that rooms have a /topic ... which in this room starts with "Common Lisp", whereas "The topic for ##lisp is: Lisp Programming Languages - Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure, and others"
2014-10-22T20:07:57Z drewc: (I bet #scheme, #clojure and #emacs have a similar /topic ... won't be much though, and not against any ops! :))
2014-10-22T20:08:16Z Ryan_Burnside: Thanks :)
2014-10-22T20:08:52Z Ryan_Burnside: Hopefully there is a "Bike" on the other channel.
2014-10-22T20:09:21Z Bicyclidine: Er?
2014-10-22T20:09:35Z Bicyclidine: Does this involve me or are you just exercising
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2014-10-22T20:10:10Z Ryan_Burnside: The user Bike here has answered just about every CL question I've had in the past.
2014-10-22T20:10:20Z stacksmith_: G'day.  Slime is driving me nuts... I am debugging, and there is no rhyme or reason as to where the restart messages go (at least as far as I can tell).  Also, I am getting more and more buffers with various messages. Any advice?
2014-10-22T20:10:30Z Bicyclidine: huh. well, that's me, i'll join that channel then
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2014-10-22T20:13:00Z Bicyclidine: Ryan_Burnside: though if your question is about scheme specifically you'd probably be best off in #scheme specifically.
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2014-10-22T20:17:50Z Ryan_Burnside: They've answered.
2014-10-22T20:17:51Z Ryan_Burnside: :)
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2014-10-22T20:27:06Z stacksmith_: So, I have a macro that creates a binding with a (let  ) and evaluates a bunch of stuff.  All looked good.  But, after restart-inferior-lisp and reloading with (ql:quickload ...), the binding the macro sets up is nil!  Recompiling the macro definition by hand fixes the issue.  Any thoughts?
2014-10-22T20:27:43Z Grue`: are you aware "eval" evaluates with null lexical environment?
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2014-10-22T20:28:52Z stacksmith_: Why does it work at all is more of the 'right' question then.
2014-10-22T20:29:01Z Bicyclidine: paste?
2014-10-22T20:29:44Z Grue`: well, I'd recommend avoiding eval unless you're a TrueLispGuru and know what you're doing
2014-10-22T20:30:06Z drewc: and, the difference between compile, load and eval time might have an effect as well
2014-10-22T20:30:15Z stacksmith_: Bicyclidine, it's a lot of code in various stages... Grue`, sadly I have to eval, even if it means I have to become a TLG.
2014-10-22T20:30:39Z Bicyclidine: well, it's difficult to guess what could be happening then.
2014-10-22T20:31:01Z drewc: I like to avoid macros in general .... But I DoNotShout ... so not that sort of Guru :P
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2014-10-22T20:31:44Z stacksmith_: Bicyclidine, I know - I was hoping someone would slap an easy solution on me, based on the symptoms...  I'll dig more and make a simple piece of code to paste if I can't find it...
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2014-10-22T20:32:19Z drewc: stacksmith_: avoid EVAL <--- easy solution.
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2014-10-22T20:32:59Z Bicyclidine: i guess it's like calling your doctor and telling them you have a weird cough
2014-10-22T20:33:00Z Grue`: stacksmith_: the thing is that to diagnose the symptoms, the thing you're doing should be common enough that people can recognize it off the top of their heads
2014-10-22T20:33:22Z Grue`: nobody is messing with eval inside macros all that often, so...
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2014-10-22T20:33:39Z stacksmith_: Bicyclidine, more like telling the doctor that I have puss coming out of my penis.
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2014-10-22T20:35:09Z drewc: I don't think that is relevant, or on topic ... but meh, what do I care?
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2014-10-22T20:37:35Z Ryan_Burnside: I still find macros kind of confusing. I get that they do not evaluate their parameters but I don't quite understand the mechanism of how they can bind values to symbols outside their scope.
2014-10-22T20:37:56Z Bicyclidine: in what sense do they do that?
2014-10-22T20:38:16Z Grue`: they don't, a macro is a function that takes an s-expression and returns another s-expression
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2014-10-22T20:38:35Z Grue`: it's just abstracted in a way that makes you think otherwise
2014-10-22T20:38:40Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: the difference between compile, load and eval time might have an effect as well ;)
2014-10-22T20:38:43Z Ryan_Burnside: But I recall something about a closure (I think they called it).
2014-10-22T20:38:55Z drewc: (and macroexpand time!)
2014-10-22T20:39:15Z Ryan_Burnside: Where each time you called it a symbol was modified, and I don't believe it had a setf either...
2014-10-22T20:40:17Z Grue`: closures are orthogonal to macros
2014-10-22T20:40:19Z drewc: and what does a lexical closure have to do with macro expansion time?
2014-10-22T20:40:37Z Bicyclidine: do you mean a macro like PUSH that probably expands to a use of SETF
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2014-10-22T20:43:46Z drewc: Or, In CL with dynamic-ism, a function that calls the many forms that can modify a special variable.
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2014-10-22T20:44:38Z Grue`: Ryan_Burnside probably meant something like (let ((counter 0)) (defun counter () (incf counter)))
2014-10-22T20:45:00Z Grue`: though this does have a setf
2014-10-22T20:46:09Z drewc is now quite confused, for no idea what that has to do with macro-expansion :) Coffee time! 
2014-10-22T20:46:18Z Grue`: well it doesn't
2014-10-22T20:47:27Z Ryan_Burnside: I recall Bike saying that parameters are always passed by "place". So I take it objects are NOT copied when passed into functions?
2014-10-22T20:47:32Z drewc: well, INCF is a macro ... that outputs code that, when run, modifies counter ... so it does, kinda/sorta.
2014-10-22T20:48:08Z Bicyclidine: Ryan_Burnside: immutable objects can be "copied" by the implementation, but not ones you can change
2014-10-22T20:49:27Z drewc: Ryan_Burnside: (defun foo (foo) foo) (loop (foo 1)) <--- should run forever, as '1' is a fixnum, and never copied regardless.
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2014-10-22T20:49:31Z Ryan_Burnside: So, whenever I'm passing a list as a part of a parameter, I'm not passing a copy but rather something like a reference?
2014-10-22T20:49:45Z drewc: you are passing the list
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2014-10-22T20:50:04Z Ryan_Burnside: ok
2014-10-22T20:50:15Z Bicyclidine: yeah, you're passing the list. easiest way to think about it. don't bother with C-oid pointers, they ain't happening.
2014-10-22T20:50:43Z Bicyclidine: so something actually alters the list, like (setf (car ...) ...), actually alters the list, and something that alters the variable binding - which is of course distinct from the list - does not
2014-10-22T20:51:00Z Bicyclidine: which is why the (setf list (cons ...)) code every newbie writes at some point doesn't work
2014-10-22T20:51:07Z Bicyclidine: doesn't work as they expect, rather
2014-10-22T20:51:35Z drewc: or rather "there is a reference to the list, because otherwise how would you ever use it? But unless it is a named reference, it is beyond your grasp anyway."
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2014-10-22T20:53:19Z Ryan_Burnside: (defun plus-one(num)(incf num)) won't modify num however.
2014-10-22T20:53:44Z Bicyclidine: see, (incf num) expands to (setf num (1+ num)), more or less, so you're just modifying the variable binding ("num"), not the number
2014-10-22T20:53:44Z drewc: yes it will. OR: please define what you mean by "num"?
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2014-10-22T20:54:51Z stacksmith_: Grue`, thanks for the pointer -re eval executing in null lex environment.  I found the bug - accidentally deleted the line that made my environment variable 'special'...
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2014-10-22T20:54:55Z Ryan_Burnside: Oh you're correct.
2014-10-22T20:55:00Z Ryan_Burnside: typo in my code.
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2014-10-22T23:08:56Z cutgovspend: Gunman who killed soldier in attack
2014-10-22T23:08:56Z cutgovspend:  on Canadian Parliament identified    AUTHORITIES  identify 32-year-old Michael Zehaf-Bibeau as the gunman who killed a  soldier at the War Memorial and opened fire in the Canadian Parliament  building before being killed, and US agencies have been advised that he  is believed to be a Canadian convert to Islam and his social media  traffic and profile are being reviewed.
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2014-10-22T23:13:29Z pjb: cutgovspend: how is that related to #lisp?
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2014-10-22T23:31:47Z cutgovspend: guy must have freaked out from being made to use java and oracle
2014-10-22T23:31:56Z cutgovspend: lisp related
2014-10-22T23:31:56Z cutgovspend: lisp can stop terror
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2014-10-22T23:38:56Z cutgovspend: Ineligible DACA Beneficiaries Discovered on NC Voting Rolls                                                                                        by             Caroline  May                  22 Oct 2014, 11:39 AM PDT                         post a comment                                  With the North Carolina U.S. Senate race in a dead heta, state  election officials say they have discovered 145 names on the voting  rolls who are ineli
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2014-10-22T23:47:01Z Adlai blinks
2014-10-22T23:48:14Z cutgovspend: www.washingtonexaminer.com/blackout-network-tv-that-hyped-2006-anti-bush-wave-ignores-anti-obama-election/article/2555108
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2014-10-22T23:55:21Z nyef: ... Okay, this is more than a bit off-topic. Are there any ops around?
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2014-10-22T23:55:46Z work_op: im in #freenode already
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2014-10-22T23:56:30Z work_op: someone just echoed /names into the channel lol
2014-10-22T23:56:36Z work_op: freenode is eating shit as usual
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