2014-10-13T00:00:26Z Adlai: iirc, entanglement
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2014-10-13T00:02:57Z nyef: Sounds about right.
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2014-10-13T01:09:03Z stacksmith: G'day friends.  I have a package that creates and looks up symbols.  All is fine as long as I test it (in-package mypackage).  But if I call functions from another package, predictably the symbols wind up in the wrong place or not found.  What is the proper way to indicate to functions to confine their symbol activities to a specific package?
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2014-10-13T01:10:02Z nyef: stacksmith: IIRC, INTERN takes an optional PACKAGE argument.
2014-10-13T01:10:11Z nyef: Same with FIND-SYMBOL or whatever it is.
2014-10-13T01:10:29Z kristof: Can you dynamically bind the current package name?
2014-10-13T01:10:49Z stacksmith: Can you force the reader to read into a specific package?
2014-10-13T01:11:14Z nyef: kristof: *PACKAGE* ? Yes.
2014-10-13T01:11:20Z zRecursive: kristof: in-package ?
2014-10-13T01:11:23Z kristof: oh, that's what I meant
2014-10-13T01:11:51Z kristof: So yeah, you could dynamically alter *package* in your functions
2014-10-13T01:11:54Z nyef: stacksmith: Somewhat. You can bind *PACKAGE*, but that doesn't help you if there's a package-prefix.
2014-10-13T01:12:16Z kristof: If there's a package prefix, you don't want to mess with that, anyway.
2014-10-13T01:12:36Z stacksmith: No prefixes.  Just need to read sexps that create symbols.
2014-10-13T01:12:52Z nyef: You're using READ to create your symbols?
2014-10-13T01:13:07Z stacksmith: yup
2014-10-13T01:13:45Z stacksmith: Is that really weird?
2014-10-13T01:14:17Z nyef: It is if all you want out of it is symbols.
2014-10-13T01:14:27Z nyef: After all, we have INTERN and MAKE-SYMBOL and GENSYM.
2014-10-13T01:14:58Z stacksmith: True, but what I am reading is a big sexp that I can just read.
2014-10-13T01:15:18Z nyef: Okay, that's less weird. Go with binding *PACKAGE* around your call to READ then.
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2014-10-13T01:16:52Z stacksmith: nyef, by binding do you mean setf'ing?
2014-10-13T01:17:02Z nyef: No, I mean using LET.
2014-10-13T01:17:26Z stacksmith: Right, special variable blah blah.  Sorry.
2014-10-13T01:17:27Z nyef: (Or LET*, or using it as a parameter name in a function definition, or...)
2014-10-13T01:18:09Z zRecursive: weird requirement
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2014-10-13T01:28:29Z stacksmith: nyef, is it sensible to use a package to hold a shid of data? As a fancy hashtable with a built-in parser for s-exps?  Or is it really stupid?  I can't tell for some reason.
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2014-10-13T01:33:43Z nyef: stacksmith: Oddly enough, it's both, depending on circumstances.
2014-10-13T01:34:35Z stacksmith: Yes, I think I understand.  It seems to make sense in my case, as the end-user will be using the REPL to interact with these symbols...
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2014-10-13T01:40:07Z nyef: Then yes, it makes sense here.
2014-10-13T01:40:22Z nyef: You're also not particularly concerned about malicious input, are you?
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2014-10-13T02:52:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-10-13T02:56:38Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-10-13T03:01:29Z beach: nyef: Do you ever think of making a more CLOSy version of CLX?
2014-10-13T03:01:43Z nyef: No, I can't say that I have.
2014-10-13T03:03:24Z beach: I think about it from time to time, but I have more urgent things to do.
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2014-10-13T03:04:10Z nyef: Heh. Isn't that always the way?
2014-10-13T03:04:42Z beach: Furthermore, if Wayland replaces X11, we might have to come up with something different altogether.
2014-10-13T03:06:00Z nyef: Wouldn't there at least be a compatibility layer for a while, so we can keep using X11 on the Lisp side while we develop a suitable userland?
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2014-10-13T03:06:24Z beach: I hope you are right.
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2014-10-13T03:06:39Z nyef: So do I.
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2014-10-13T03:09:42Z zRecursive: It is NOT an easy job to touch the current CLX code
2014-10-13T03:10:17Z nyef: zRecursive: True, partly because it still supports the TI Explorer, and nobody wants to break that support.
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2014-10-13T03:10:58Z zRecursive: oh
2014-10-13T03:11:42Z nyef: (Well, it might not still support the TI Explorer, nobody really has the hardware to test it anymore, but still nobody wants to break it.)
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2014-10-13T03:15:25Z beach: zRecursive: I wasn't suggesting touching the current code.
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2014-10-13T03:16:59Z zRecursive: beach: Do you mean you want to create a completely new one instead
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2014-10-13T03:18:20Z nyef: An FFI-based CLX might integrate better with OpenGL, at least.
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2014-10-13T03:19:31Z beach: zRecursive: Yes.
2014-10-13T03:20:04Z beach: zRecursive: I believe there are copyright issues with the current code as well.
2014-10-13T03:20:41Z zRecursive: it will be a big project
2014-10-13T03:20:56Z nyef: Or a series of little projects.
2014-10-13T03:21:03Z beach: I don't think it's very complicated.
2014-10-13T03:21:28Z beach: It's only that there are many different requests to handle.
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2014-10-13T03:23:28Z alimiracle: hi lisp
2014-10-13T03:23:36Z beach: Hello alimiracle.
2014-10-13T03:24:26Z alimiracle: you love lisp?
2014-10-13T03:25:10Z beach: alimiracle: Try some more relevant questions instead.
2014-10-13T03:25:36Z alimiracle: ok
2014-10-13T03:27:41Z beach: zRecursive: I think it's one of those projects that can be done one request per day.
2014-10-13T03:29:41Z zRecursive: i hope so. and i hope it will make stumpwm work better
2014-10-13T03:30:03Z beach: zRecursive: What is wrong with the way stumpwm works?
2014-10-13T03:30:32Z Bike: well, clx doesn't support xrender, so stump can't use anti-aliased fonts
2014-10-13T03:30:45Z beach: Aha, I see.
2014-10-13T03:31:09Z beach: There is at least one version of CLX that has render extensions.
2014-10-13T03:31:16Z beach: But it is badly documented.
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2014-10-13T03:31:40Z beach: And I can't even understand the render extension protocol specification.
2014-10-13T03:31:52Z beach: It has got to be one of the worst specifications ever written.
2014-10-13T03:32:23Z beach: A new version of CLX would emphasize the render extensions.
2014-10-13T03:32:28Z beach: [in my opinion]
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2014-10-13T03:37:44Z InvalidCo: I wrote support for one X extension just yesterday
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2014-10-13T03:38:29Z InvalidCo: and it's a LOT easier to translate from the C code than the specs
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2014-10-13T03:39:02Z InvalidCo: look for protocol include files
2014-10-13T03:39:24Z InvalidCo: the structs basically map almost one-to-one with CLX's with-request
2014-10-13T03:40:42Z InvalidCo: CLX has the "major opcode" in the form with the display argument
2014-10-13T03:41:05Z InvalidCo: then, in the type-args, type the "minor opcode"
2014-10-13T03:41:25Z InvalidCo: after that, the C implementations have a size parameter
2014-10-13T03:41:29Z InvalidCo: which is usually constant
2014-10-13T03:41:35Z InvalidCo: but CLX adds that automatically
2014-10-13T03:42:19Z InvalidCo: so just dismiss that and write the minor-opcode form with (data 123) to make it more obvious
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2014-10-13T03:46:23Z nyef: Okay, time for me to crash.
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2014-10-13T03:48:46Z InvalidCo: oh yeah, and when you debug the extension, remember to call display-force-output all the time
2014-10-13T03:49:38Z InvalidCo: it can accumulate those asynchronous errors in a funny way
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2014-10-13T03:50:46Z InvalidCo: if you're creating resources, (think create-window) most of the time you need to allocate a resource id and then put it in the request
2014-10-13T03:51:45Z InvalidCo: probably explicitly stated everywhere in the specs and doc but it's easier to just check how stuff is done from the old clx code
2014-10-13T03:54:02Z InvalidCo: heh
2014-10-13T03:54:07Z InvalidCo: I can see that bad documentation now
2014-10-13T03:54:11Z InvalidCo: just looking up xrender.lisp
2014-10-13T03:54:59Z InvalidCo: and I count three functions with documentation strings
2014-10-13T03:55:13Z InvalidCo: and one of them is render-free-glyphs
2014-10-13T03:55:36Z InvalidCo: which removes glyphs from a set
2014-10-13T03:55:44Z InvalidCo: which I think is pretty redundant
2014-10-13T03:55:58Z InvalidCo: and to top that off, there's a comment above it which states "untested"
2014-10-13T03:56:02Z InvalidCo: oh, the humanity
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2014-10-13T03:57:44Z InvalidCo: but, there's some testing code that has been commented out
2014-10-13T03:57:49Z InvalidCo: by the end of the file
2014-10-13T03:58:11Z InvalidCo: and it actually looks like something that is potentially helpful!
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2014-10-13T04:12:28Z beach: InvalidCo: Thanks for all this information.  Perhaps you would be interested in writing a CLOSy version of CLX?
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2014-10-13T04:17:28Z InvalidCo: beach: np. I don't think CLX would benefit much from further abstraction...
2014-10-13T04:18:07Z InvalidCo: I'm right now writing this toolkit that's based on sheeple (nth time I advertise this here) which is supposed to make GUI programming a lot more fun
2014-10-13T04:18:10Z beach: Are you saying it is not worthwhile to write a CLOSy version, because the current one is already abstract enough?
2014-10-13T04:18:48Z InvalidCo: after looking at a lot of the code, I'm saying CLX is pretty much in a comfortable position abstraction-wise
2014-10-13T04:19:01Z beach: OK.
2014-10-13T04:19:54Z InvalidCo: the X protocol itself is designed to let you do pretty much whatever you want and if you're actually using it, you want to be able to get down to the bottom of it every once in a while
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2014-10-13T04:21:13Z InvalidCo: object obsessed programming is a bad pitfall since it excludes other paradigmas fast, so I personally try not to introduce too many one-dispatcher methods in code
2014-10-13T04:21:40Z InvalidCo: the widget system I'm working on uses sheeple for the basic reason of having instance-based method specifiers
2014-10-13T04:22:02Z InvalidCo: which probably CLOS would do with just eql-specifiers, but then those methods wouldn't be inherited
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2014-10-13T04:22:14Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2014-10-13T04:26:08Z InvalidCo: do you have a specific project in mind which needs CLX for the Sammy S-expresser?
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2014-10-13T04:30:13Z beach: I remember having something in mind a while ago, but I can't remember it now.
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2014-10-13T04:36:07Z InvalidCo: heh
2014-10-13T04:36:32Z InvalidCo: I just realized that there's probably a lot of useful information about lisp stuff in the backlogs of this channel
2014-10-13T04:37:12Z Zhivago: Stergeons's Law applies.
2014-10-13T04:37:13Z InvalidCo: now we just need some kind of an ai to sort it out and afford a sensible searching api/ui
2014-10-13T04:38:36Z InvalidCo: Zhivago: yeah, google is not really equipped to deal with logs
2014-10-13T04:40:03Z jackdaniel: win 5
2014-10-13T04:40:12Z InvalidCo: maybe one could even just generate html from all that data and have google sort it out with the help of linking usernames, symbols and such together? 8)
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2014-10-13T04:41:10Z Zhivago: You could probably extract all of the integers from the internet and sum them in an attempt to appease entropy; it would probably be about as useful. :)
2014-10-13T04:42:16Z InvalidCo: folding all the integers would probably not be that interesting of an operation, but how about looking at which sites have which kinds of integers? :)
2014-10-13T04:43:05Z InvalidCo: cultural and mathemathical implications of certain numbers
2014-10-13T04:43:48Z Zhivago: Well, you might get a thesis out of that, which would make you marginally more qualified to pour coffee -- so that's probably a bit too useful to be comparable here.
2014-10-13T04:43:49Z InvalidCo: maybe certain deviations of number ocurrences and set areas tells you if a site is commercial or whatever
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2014-10-13T04:44:42Z InvalidCo: Zhivago: I actually once got tasked to make coffee whilst in conscript training, with bad results
2014-10-13T04:45:04Z Zhivago: If you were training conscripts, you should have delegated.
2014-10-13T04:45:23Z InvalidCo: the thing was I was taught how to handle rifles and explosives and shit and once I get pulled out of the line to make coffee for the higher ups
2014-10-13T04:45:40Z InvalidCo: with a machine I wasn't sure of how to operate
2014-10-13T04:46:18Z InvalidCo: I was a conscript
2014-10-13T04:46:28Z InvalidCo: luckily, not one tasked with training others ;)
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2014-10-13T04:54:12Z InvalidCo: hmm
2014-10-13T04:54:40Z InvalidCo: are there already test-suites which profile code and then change *features* or other compilation parameters based on that?
2014-10-13T04:54:50Z InvalidCo: or, you know, provide a facility for that
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2014-10-13T05:00:33Z shortCircuit__: hello, n00b alert!!
2014-10-13T05:01:24Z shortCircuit__: i started lisp yesterday (didn't have any particular reason), i am curious that after learning lisp, what enlightment should i have
2014-10-13T05:01:57Z White_Flame: metaprogramming
2014-10-13T05:02:09Z White_Flame: good use of lambdas (though other languages have picked that up over the years)
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2014-10-13T05:02:22Z shortCircuit__: current my only experience is 1 year php and 3 month ruby on rails
2014-10-13T05:02:25Z White_Flame: code as data
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2014-10-13T05:03:10Z shortCircuit__: code as data, i don't know that
2014-10-13T05:03:23Z White_Flame: without a baseline, learning Lisp as your first "major" development language will be your only baseline
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2014-10-13T05:03:54Z shortCircuit__: cool
2014-10-13T05:03:56Z White_Flame: when people come from other more general purpose languages, they tend to be blown away by what they can do in Lisp vs their prior languages
2014-10-13T05:04:22Z shortCircuit__: i am following the online book Practical Common Lisp.
2014-10-13T05:04:31Z White_Flame: and if you learn Lisp, then go to other languages, you'll be spoiled and those others will seem like weenie toys in comparison :)
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2014-10-13T05:05:28Z shortCircuit__: :D
2014-10-13T05:05:37Z White_Flame: so yeah, "enlightenment" is typically relative to other popular languages.  "Enlightenment" is just normal to Lisp programmers
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2014-10-13T05:06:10Z beach: shortCircuit__: One of the absolute unique features of Common Lisp is its objects system.
2014-10-13T05:06:40Z shortCircuit__: what is meant by objects system?
2014-10-13T05:06:52Z beach: shortCircuit__: Object-oriented programming.
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2014-10-13T05:06:59Z shortCircuit__: oh
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2014-10-13T05:07:22Z shortCircuit__: i have heard OOP in lisp is just another library, is that true?
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2014-10-13T05:07:47Z beach: Almost.
2014-10-13T05:08:42Z shortCircuit__: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html in the section Improving the User Interaction, why is the force-output necessary . i am using SBCL , if i omit the line the prompt's Title : , Artist: doesnot show.
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2014-10-13T05:09:21Z phao: shortCircuit__, as a general advice, the first chapter skips a bunch of explanations
2014-10-13T05:09:53Z phao: I'm about half of that book and it all gets explained later in more than enough detail.
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2014-10-13T05:10:13Z phao: But the first chapter goes through the stuff just to show you some of the "magic" in CL.
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2014-10-13T05:10:31Z shortCircuit__: i see.
2014-10-13T05:10:48Z shortCircuit__: such books tests my patience , which i lack :)
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2014-10-13T05:11:34Z InvalidCo: understanding that particular thing is not really a lisp thing, it's general i/o
2014-10-13T05:11:45Z phao: shortCircuit__, get some patience then
2014-10-13T05:11:52Z shortCircuit__: :))
2014-10-13T05:12:24Z shortCircuit__: InvalisCo, can ya provide some light
2014-10-13T05:12:26Z InvalidCo: just soldier on through, it will all make a lot more sense and in an easier way once you reach the oneness with the repl
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2014-10-13T05:12:51Z InvalidCo: shortCircuit__: well, if you insist
2014-10-13T05:12:59Z shortCircuit__: i do insist
2014-10-13T05:13:43Z InvalidCo: when you use a stream (*query-io* in this case)
2014-10-13T05:13:59Z InvalidCo: it is basically sending data one way
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2014-10-13T05:14:18Z InvalidCo: input/output streams have two "pipes" or whatever you want to call it
2014-10-13T05:14:22Z InvalidCo: one for each way
2014-10-13T05:14:25Z White_Flame: it's called "flush" in most other languages
2014-10-13T05:14:37Z InvalidCo: sometimes the things are stuck in the pipe
2014-10-13T05:14:51Z InvalidCo: so you "flush" them to make sure they get to their destination
2014-10-13T05:15:12Z InvalidCo: often times you want to send something over before you wait for something to come over
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2014-10-13T05:15:57Z InvalidCo: when you want the user to give you some information, you want to ask them first
2014-10-13T05:16:30Z InvalidCo: force-output here just calls the other end of the stream to make sure that there's nothing in the pipe waiting to be received
2014-10-13T05:17:00Z InvalidCo: furthermore, it holds the call, so to speak, while the guy at the other end looks through the pipe and takes out anything still in there
2014-10-13T05:17:25Z InvalidCo: but that (holding the call) is really a needlessly advanced topic
2014-10-13T05:17:33Z InvalidCo: for now
2014-10-13T05:17:50Z InvalidCo: I don't remember, but I think PCL talks about it in the later chapters
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2014-10-13T05:18:28Z White_Flame: If you've ever done streaming http in your web stuff, you might have encountered the need to flush
2014-10-13T05:18:54Z White_Flame: but when you render a page and close the connection, close implicitly does a flush for you
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2014-10-13T05:19:15Z InvalidCo: iirc, PHP also has flush available
2014-10-13T05:19:29Z InvalidCo: as an explicit routine/function/doublecolon in hebrew
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2014-10-13T05:19:52Z shortCircuit__: in C its called fflush. but in PHP i never used flush :(
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2014-10-13T05:22:58Z InvalidCo: shortCircuit__: so you ARE familiar with some C?
2014-10-13T05:23:01Z InvalidCo: excellent
2014-10-13T05:23:04Z shortCircuit__: yes
2014-10-13T05:23:18Z shortCircuit__: its the first language that we learn
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2014-10-13T05:24:45Z InvalidCo: also, it appears my explanation was false
2014-10-13T05:24:47Z InvalidCo: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_finish.htm
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2014-10-13T05:25:04Z InvalidCo: apparently, finish-output is the "blocking" version of force-output
2014-10-13T05:25:15Z InvalidCo: and force-output just flat out discards if it cannot deliver
2014-10-13T05:26:07Z Zhivago: force-output should just force the flushing process to kick off.
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2014-10-13T05:38:14Z shortCircuit__: so force output pushes the prompt Title: or Artist or wat-so-ever out of the pipe begore waiting for the user input?
2014-10-13T05:38:51Z shortCircuit__: *before
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2014-10-13T06:05:00Z Adlai: ((lambda (code) `(,code code)) '(lambda (code) `(,code code)))
2014-10-13T06:05:14Z Adlai: er shit, not quite
2014-10-13T06:05:46Z Adlai: ((LAMBDA (CODE) `(,CODE ',CODE)) '(LAMBDA (CODE) `(,CODE ',CODE)))
2014-10-13T06:06:06Z Adlai: the uppercase lends authenticity and suggests that the pupil has actually tested his code
2014-10-13T06:06:44Z pillton: Adlai: (setf *print-case* :downcase)
2014-10-13T06:07:00Z Adlai: enowant
2014-10-13T06:08:19Z Adlai: doing this with backquote syntax is so much simpler
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2014-10-13T06:09:19Z Bike: (#1=(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '#1#)
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2014-10-13T06:09:57Z Adlai: thank you!
2014-10-13T06:10:25Z Adlai: the repetition was tripping up my p-sense
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2014-10-13T06:11:30Z Adlai: ooh that's even better, this actually causes the reader to do the same operations as the quine
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2014-10-13T06:26:29Z Krystof: Adlai: -
2014-10-13T06:27:35Z Adlai: this is the angriest i've ever been while laughing
2014-10-13T06:28:00Z Adlai: or hardest i've ever laughed while mildly ticked off
2014-10-13T06:28:31Z pjb: InvalidCo: can you contribute to the clx that is distributed by quicklisp?  clx is definitely used, if not directly, as a backend for things like McCLIM, Garnet, etc running on unix.
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2014-10-13T06:29:53Z InvalidCo: pjb: of course! I've got the fork on github and everything
2014-10-13T06:30:30Z InvalidCo: although I'm not familiar with the process of packaging & publishing for quicklisp
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2014-10-13T06:40:09Z InvalidCo: it seems that quicklisp does use sharplispers/clx from github
2014-10-13T06:40:12Z InvalidCo: marvelous
2014-10-13T06:43:27Z pjb: I would definitely use the doublebuffer option in X (not right now, but over the next year).  I mean, I' currently working on a library that has a cocoa backend, but I'd like to generalize it with a clx backend (or perhaps a GNUstep one).
2014-10-13T06:44:29Z InvalidCo: excellent
2014-10-13T06:45:27Z InvalidCo: the basic backbuffer functions already work, but a year should give me just about enough time to get around to add all the oddball super-extra-features with a few months allowance for pull requests ;)
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2014-10-13T06:46:44Z Zhivago: Isn't that all obsolete given compositing?
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2014-10-13T08:04:00Z oD_C: goodmoring lispers :D
2014-10-13T08:04:34Z oD_C: anyone has any links for videos regarding "getting started" with lisp?
2014-10-13T08:05:08Z stassats: specifically videos? videos are no good for learning programming
2014-10-13T08:05:22Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lisp+tutorial
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2014-10-13T08:06:11Z pjb: They may be no good for learning programming, but they may be good to interest and attract people to learn lisp, perhaps?
2014-10-13T08:06:22Z pjb: And now it's gogosa who's PM spamming.
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2014-10-13T08:08:30Z oD_C: i think that having to "hear" and see soemone "teaching" lisp is a very vivid experience compared to only readin text. (i am not saying that i am nto readin, actually right now i am reading the book land of lisp that a guy here told me to.
2014-10-13T08:08:45Z oD_C: )
2014-10-13T08:08:53Z oD_C: the parenthesis was not closed :P
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2014-10-13T08:13:31Z InvalidCo: of course, it's helpful to see someone program to get a clearer mindset of how a program evolves
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2014-10-13T08:14:22Z InvalidCo: there were a couple of fascinating videos on youtube of a guy writing a MOD player in c/++, I think
2014-10-13T08:14:50Z InvalidCo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvy_qXBHVYY
2014-10-13T08:15:00Z pavelpenev: oD_C: The closest thing I can offer is my own https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxnwe16Bqyk but it's only 1:12 long
2014-10-13T08:15:30Z oD_C: whatever try is welcome mate
2014-10-13T08:15:49Z InvalidCo: of course, that's not lisp and there's no audio commentary, but it's still somewhat of an insight into writing a tracker music player
2014-10-13T08:16:12Z InvalidCo: which, as I've understood, isn't all that different from writing an mp3 player!
2014-10-13T08:17:21Z InvalidCo: the real interesting "lispcasts" would probably be the ones where the programmer himself speaks as he codes and describes his thought process as he tries different solutions
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2014-10-13T08:18:47Z Grue`: do people really code like that though
2014-10-13T08:19:18Z InvalidCo: like what?
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2014-10-13T08:20:16Z Grue`: with thought process
2014-10-13T08:20:40Z InvalidCo: I, for one, pride myself on being a sentient being
2014-10-13T08:21:21Z stassats: i cannot make my actual thoughts audible
2014-10-13T08:21:28Z Grue`: i can only describe the thought behind a piece of code post-factum
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2014-10-13T08:21:47Z InvalidCo: but you probably first write code and then rewrite it?
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2014-10-13T08:22:33Z stassats: only when you don't know what code you need
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2014-10-13T08:31:29Z Cymew: oD_C:  This is one video showing some lisp programming that might be inspiring https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0
2014-10-13T08:31:57Z oD_C: thx for the feedback guys ;)
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2014-10-13T08:32:58Z InvalidCo: oD_C: whenever I see your nickname I try and form a coherent picture of someone making the oddest of faces
2014-10-13T08:33:23Z oD_C: how come?
2014-10-13T08:33:34Z InvalidCo: it sorta kinda looks like an obscure emoticon
2014-10-13T08:33:44Z InvalidCo: you know, like o_O or whatever those anime guys use
2014-10-13T08:34:05Z oD_C: hahaha no its a abbreviation of an older nick i had when i was a boy
2014-10-13T08:34:11Z InvalidCo: hurts my face-recognition after a while
2014-10-13T08:34:21Z InvalidCo: heh, mine too
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2014-10-13T08:34:56Z oD_C: i am not very proud of wearing it now that i am 29 years old, so i changed it into acronym :D
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2014-10-13T08:35:12Z InvalidCo: heh
2014-10-13T08:35:38Z InvalidCo: I guess I'll try to associate it with some made-up abbreviation
2014-10-13T08:35:46Z oD_C: whatever suits you
2014-10-13T08:35:50Z InvalidCo: :)
2014-10-13T08:35:51Z oD_C: over digital cinemas
2014-10-13T08:35:52Z oD_C: whatever
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2014-10-13T11:10:00Z aldo: hi, someone succeded compiling thinlisp?
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2014-10-13T11:24:58Z wasamasa: "There ought to be some examples, but at this point, there aren't any. This web site generator could be one but it isn't since GL(CMULisp) chokes on it attempt to open files in lisp."
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2014-10-13T11:25:23Z wasamasa: queorgullo: ok, this is getting annoying
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2014-10-13T11:26:00Z wasamasa: aldo: hmm, last modified 2001
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2014-10-13T12:15:34Z aldo: wasamasa: there is a fork here https://github.com/vsedach/Thinlisp-1.1
2014-10-13T12:15:51Z aldo: wasamasa: but the author say IMO you're certainly better off using ECL instead
2014-10-13T12:15:53Z aldo: :S
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2014-10-13T12:21:02Z wasamasa: aldo: yup
2014-10-13T12:21:11Z wasamasa: aldo: although that one's semi-maintained, too
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2014-10-13T12:21:23Z wasamasa: aldo: clasp is maintained and currently based off ecl
2014-10-13T12:21:31Z wasamasa: aldo: but very alpha
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2014-10-13T12:24:54Z ecraven: c++ definitely is becoming more lispy by the year... make x.f(y) the same as f(x,y), then just a tiny change to parens and commas, and voila :) http://isocpp.org/files/papers/N4174.pdf
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2014-10-13T12:26:47Z aldo: wasamasa: I looked for some small cl like that thinlisp, without eval / compile stuff and maybe bsd-licensed, not easy to find :D, ecl is great but not as light and also lgpl, i'd prefer statical link
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2014-10-13T12:27:13Z stassats: an opportunity to write yet another implementation
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2014-10-13T12:27:41Z wasamasa: mhh
2014-10-13T12:28:02Z wasamasa: you could help making clasp bsd-compatible by rewriting the ecl parts
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2014-10-13T12:28:15Z aldo: wasamasa:  :D:D
2014-10-13T12:28:18Z wasamasa: which should be less work than doing your own implementation
2014-10-13T12:29:17Z aldo: wasamasa: there is also the gmp stuff
2014-10-13T12:30:17Z wasamasa: aldo: should be rather negligible compared to the amount of ecl code
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2014-10-13T12:30:52Z aldo: wasamasa: does clasp compile to machine code? I see there is some jit compiler
2014-10-13T12:31:02Z ecraven: clasp is llvm, isn't it?
2014-10-13T12:31:21Z wasamasa: ^
2014-10-13T12:31:32Z wasamasa: it compiles to llvm-ir
2014-10-13T12:31:41Z wasamasa: you could do lots of things with that
2014-10-13T12:31:53Z wasamasa: such as hooking it up to emscripten and have js
2014-10-13T12:32:01Z wasamasa: or compiling to bare metal
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2014-10-13T12:32:28Z ecraven: wasamasa: is there a document describing code generation? i've been thinking about compiling Scheme to LLVM, but it seems a poor fit. problems with tail calls, continuations, efficient dealing with &rest arguments and so on...
2014-10-13T12:34:14Z aldo: wasamasa: this c++ integration stuff is interesting , I hate c++ but many gui libraries and software is c++ in this "era" of madness
2014-10-13T12:35:44Z wasamasa: ecraven: it has docs?
2014-10-13T12:36:11Z wasamasa: ecraven: http://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html
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2014-10-13T12:37:04Z wasamasa: ecraven: or more generally, http://llvm.org/docs/
2014-10-13T12:37:43Z wasamasa: aldo: yeah, I'm interested in both native executables and easy usage of libraries like qt
2014-10-13T12:38:03Z wasamasa: aldo: there might come other features soon, such as tree shaking to make executables smaller
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2014-10-13T12:46:34Z wasamasa: ecraven: or more specifically: http://llvm.org/docs/tutorial/OCamlLangImpl3.html
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2014-10-13T12:48:13Z wasamasa: noo, I missed out on the chance to ping pavelpenev :<
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2014-10-13T12:55:43Z aldo: wasamasa: i see clasp is full common lisp, but there is some way to use a subset like without eval and compile?
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2014-10-13T12:56:47Z wasamasa: I suggest you guys to enter #clasp
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2014-10-13T12:59:36Z ecraven: wasamasa: is there a simple way to look at the generated llvm-ir for a lisp expression in clasp?
2014-10-13T12:59:50Z wasamasa: ecraven: I suggest you to visit #clasp, too
2014-10-13T13:00:17Z wasamasa: and everyone else as well, drmeister is there and can answer your questions much better than me :>
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2014-10-13T13:23:40Z Adlai: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405
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2014-10-13T13:36:18Z rick-monster: #clasp
2014-10-13T13:36:37Z rick-monster: sorry wrong window
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2014-10-13T13:42:16Z BitPuffin: is there something like prescheme but for common lisp?
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2014-10-13T14:27:39Z nyef: G'morning all.
2014-10-13T14:29:05Z nyef: Okay, who the hell is queorgullo, and why is she/he/it messaging me in Spanish about a "free show" so soon after I join the channel?
2014-10-13T14:29:27Z stassats: is that a rhetorical question?
2014-10-13T14:29:31Z nyef: Yes.
2014-10-13T14:30:13Z Xach: nyef: that sounds like an ejectable offense.
2014-10-13T14:30:33Z nyef: Indeed. But I don't have an eject button.
2014-10-13T14:30:47Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-10-13T14:30:57Z queorgullo [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Don't spam)
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2014-10-13T14:30:58Z nyef: Xach: Thank you.
2014-10-13T14:30:58Z Xach has set mode -o Xach
2014-10-13T14:31:17Z drmeister: Good morning fellow Lispers.
2014-10-13T14:31:33Z nyef: Good morning drmeister.
2014-10-13T14:31:55Z ggole: Back so soon?
2014-10-13T14:32:05Z drmeister: I never left.
2014-10-13T14:32:06Z ggole: It's pinging me too, now.
2014-10-13T14:32:31Z ggole: drmeister: sorry, I was referring to our spambot here.
2014-10-13T14:32:46Z Xach: ha
2014-10-13T14:32:47Z drmeister: Understood - kill it with fire.
2014-10-13T14:33:10Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2014-10-13T14:33:20Z Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*fckbot@* heyfu[kyou*!*@* *!~john@*.customer.cdi.no *!*@www.nowhere-else.org
2014-10-13T14:33:23Z Xach has set mode -bbbb *!*yona1@186.167.243.* *!~suaporraq@200.79.255.* *!~ODD@62.212.85.* *!~srd@31.13.128.158
2014-10-13T14:33:26Z Xach has set mode +b *!*tusisy@213.143.51.*
2014-10-13T14:33:31Z queorgullo [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Take 2)
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2014-10-13T14:33:55Z ggole: Cheers.
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2014-10-13T14:44:50Z wasamasa: nyef: it's a bot that's been around freenode for some weeks and /query spams everyone who speaks up for the first time on a channel it's on
2014-10-13T14:45:03Z wasamasa: nyef: keeps coming back under different IP adresses and nick names
2014-10-13T14:45:11Z stassats: so, easy, don't talk
2014-10-13T14:45:14Z Xach: p_l can figure it out
2014-10-13T14:45:22Z antoszka: What would be the most elegant way of looping along non-contiguous ranges of numbers? Like 1 to 100, then 301 to 400 and so on...
2014-10-13T14:45:38Z wasamasa: nyef: for the record, there's no free show, just a webcam pointing at a fishbowl :P
2014-10-13T14:46:05Z antoszka: Does LOOP support such magic?
2014-10-13T14:46:15Z ggole: You could just nest it
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2014-10-13T14:52:21Z |3b|: antoszka: nested loops, or a generator/successor function if one is easy to define
2014-10-13T14:53:00Z ggole: Although it is a bit annoying how collect doesn't work across nestings
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2014-10-13T14:53:11Z |3b|: (loop append (loop collect ...))
2014-10-13T14:53:37Z |3b|: which is still annoying, but better than nothing
2014-10-13T14:53:43Z ggole: True.
2014-10-13T14:55:01Z ggole: So that would make it something like (loop for (low . high) in '((1 . 10) (11 . 14)) append (loop for i from low to high collect i))
2014-10-13T14:55:12Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2014-10-13T14:55:29Z ggole: (Would nconc be justified there?)
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2014-10-13T14:57:10Z stassats: nconc wouldn't hurt here
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2014-10-13T14:57:19Z shka: ave tux™
2014-10-13T14:57:24Z InvalidCo: doesn't loop just expand into nconc?
2014-10-13T14:57:26Z p_l has set mode +b $r:tusis
2014-10-13T14:57:31Z p_l: let's hope it will work...
2014-10-13T14:57:35Z InvalidCo: loop append/collect
2014-10-13T14:57:43Z InvalidCo: p_l: it will
2014-10-13T14:57:45Z shka: why theory?
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2014-10-13T14:57:51Z shka: do macroexpand
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2014-10-13T14:57:57Z stassats: InvalidCo: it does whatever it wants
2014-10-13T14:58:08Z shka: p_l: what are you trying to do?
2014-10-13T14:58:13Z p_l: shka: ban a bot
2014-10-13T14:58:22Z shka: oh, ok
2014-10-13T14:58:24Z shka: bt
2014-10-13T14:58:31Z shka: i wanted to ask
2014-10-13T14:58:42Z p_l: IRC is... piss-poor when it comes to such things unless you start to require authentication to join a channel
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2014-10-13T14:58:55Z stassats: i wouldn't be the best idea to use nconc or append
2014-10-13T14:59:19Z shka: is there a qsort parallel implementation for the common lisp?
2014-10-13T14:59:24Z InvalidCo: stassats: your characterization of the macro's way of thinking is very true
2014-10-13T14:59:55Z InvalidCo: but yeah, it seems to keep a pointer to the tail and rplacd's it...
2014-10-13T14:59:59Z InvalidCo: at least in one case
2014-10-13T15:00:24Z ggole: macroexpand only tells you what one particular implementation does
2014-10-13T15:00:47Z ggole: (In this SBCL, I get a call to append.)
2014-10-13T15:01:32Z shka: aaah, right
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2014-10-13T15:01:39Z shka: that's a good point
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2014-10-13T15:01:49Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers!
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2014-10-13T15:02:31Z ggole: No I don't, forget that.
2014-10-13T15:02:45Z shka: ThomasH: good day, sir
2014-10-13T15:03:01Z ThomasH: Hello shka
2014-10-13T15:03:30Z ggole: I get a quite interesting thing involving copy-list and rplacd
2014-10-13T15:03:48Z InvalidCo: yep, me too
2014-10-13T15:04:15Z InvalidCo: loop is a great language for some problems
2014-10-13T15:04:41Z InvalidCo: but often times I find the DOs in the code a bit irritating
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2014-10-13T15:04:56Z InvalidCo: and a lot of the time the DO form actually produces cleaner code
2014-10-13T15:05:07Z ggole: And nconc simply elides the copy-list, clever
2014-10-13T15:05:13Z InvalidCo: the one exception would pretty much be the collect/append
2014-10-13T15:06:07Z stassats: DO produces shorter code in some specific, that's about it
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2014-10-13T15:06:56Z InvalidCo: well, not necessarily shorter...but I just dislike prefixing the code forms with a DO
2014-10-13T15:06:58Z ThomasH: My choice of DOTIMES, DOLIST over LOOP is purely for visual aesthetics.
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2014-10-13T15:07:26Z ThomasH: To clarify, I usually use LOOP, but there are some cases where DOTIMES or DOLIST looks better, more concise.
2014-10-13T15:08:40Z Grue`: the problem is when you write DOLIST, and then need to add some extra logic that forces rewriting it as LOOP
2014-10-13T15:09:01Z ggole: short-circuiting is usually a bit clumsy.
2014-10-13T15:09:40Z nyef: Converting a DOLIST to a LOOP shouldn't take much doing, to the point of being automatable.
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2014-10-13T15:12:01Z stassats: but why bother?
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2014-10-13T15:12:41Z InvalidCo: ggole: don't all the loop/do constructs provide implicit anonymous blocks?
2014-10-13T15:13:14Z stassats: they do not provide blocks, they have PROGN
2014-10-13T15:13:15Z Grue`: "break" is easy, but "continue" isn't
2014-10-13T15:14:41Z ggole: InvalidCo: yes, but loop provides return anyway - and it doesn't help with nesting, since return just returns from the innermost.
2014-10-13T15:14:54Z InvalidCo: stassats: I'm seeing a BLOCK NIL at the beginning of every loopform I macroexpand
2014-10-13T15:15:04Z ggole: So you end up doing things like wrapping things in blocks and using return-from.
2014-10-13T15:15:14Z InvalidCo: mm
2014-10-13T15:15:19Z stassats: InvalidCo: not loop do
2014-10-13T15:15:32Z InvalidCo: of course, when I need to do something like a continue, I use tagbody
2014-10-13T15:15:48Z InvalidCo: might seem a bit barbaric, but it works! :)
2014-10-13T15:15:51Z Grue`: ggole: use loop "named" option
2014-10-13T15:15:52Z stassats: ggole: it does help with nesting
2014-10-13T15:16:49Z InvalidCo: stassats: at least CLHS thinks that it does
2014-10-13T15:16:53Z InvalidCo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2014-10-13T15:16:55Z InvalidCo: first example
2014-10-13T15:17:00Z InvalidCo: (when (not n) (return))
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2014-10-13T15:17:00Z stassats: you said loop/do
2014-10-13T15:17:11Z InvalidCo: oh
2014-10-13T15:17:17Z InvalidCo: I meant LOOP and DO forms
2014-10-13T15:17:22Z InvalidCo: not the LOOP>DO-form
2014-10-13T15:17:23Z InvalidCo: :)
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2014-10-13T15:18:36Z InvalidCo: I just realized that I've actually never written a macro which expanded into a LOOP
2014-10-13T15:18:45Z stassats: good for you, never do that
2014-10-13T15:18:53Z InvalidCo: yes
2014-10-13T15:19:04Z stassats: because of LOOP-FINISH
2014-10-13T15:19:10Z InvalidCo: but I'm not sure if it says something profound about the LOOP itself
2014-10-13T15:19:30Z InvalidCo: ah yes, the FINALLY option
2014-10-13T15:24:06Z ggole: Oh yeah, named
2014-10-13T15:24:11Z ggole: I always forget about that.
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2014-10-13T15:42:31Z aldo: wasamasa: I got thinlisp working :D
2014-10-13T15:42:57Z wasamasa: aldo: well, congrats
2014-10-13T15:43:05Z wasamasa: aldo: now take over it
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2014-10-13T15:56:11Z aldo: wasamasa: I'll check some stuff, there are some limitations I must check. By example no CLOS
2014-10-13T15:56:41Z aldo: wasamasa: and array support seems has some limitations also
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2014-10-13T15:57:25Z aldo: wasamasa: but project is about 48 LoC
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2014-10-13T16:19:59Z hitecnologys: Out of curiosity, are there any working (or close to working) init systems written in Common Lisp?
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2014-10-13T16:28:39Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-10-13T16:29:09Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2014-10-13T16:29:18Z ThomasH: Hello beach
2014-10-13T16:30:27Z shka: beach: good evening sir
2014-10-13T16:30:47Z beach: I am often asked what MIR means in the context of Cleavir.  It means Medium-level Intermediate Representation, and here is an example of the program (let ((x 10)) (if (> x 5) 1 2)) in MIR: http://metamodular.com/mir-example.png
2014-10-13T16:31:44Z nyef: beach: And you have the tools to dump MIR to that format, right?
2014-10-13T16:31:50Z beach: Yes.
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2014-10-13T16:32:01Z beach: It's Graphviz.
2014-10-13T16:32:32Z beach: I create a Graphviz description, then run the Graphviz rendering thing on that.
2014-10-13T16:33:16Z ggole: What's <-?
2014-10-13T16:33:24Z beach: Assignment instruction.
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2014-10-13T16:33:33Z beach: White boxes are instructions.
2014-10-13T16:33:38Z beach: Green is constant input.
2014-10-13T16:33:43Z beach: Yellow is lexical variables.
2014-10-13T16:33:53Z ggole: There's assignment even for free variables?
2014-10-13T16:33:56Z beach: Hexagons are temporary.
2014-10-13T16:34:10Z nyef: Being able to dump MIR through graphviz like that looks like it might be useful for debugging.
2014-10-13T16:34:15Z beach: ggole: Yes.
2014-10-13T16:34:21Z ggole: Hmm, interesting decision
2014-10-13T16:34:25Z beach: nyef: For small examples yes.
2014-10-13T16:35:11Z beach: ggole: You mean free lexical variables, right, not special variables?
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2014-10-13T16:36:18Z ggole: The assignment of > to g1652 is what popped out
2014-10-13T16:36:34Z nyef: ... To a gensym?
2014-10-13T16:36:37Z beach: Oh, > is a constant symbol.
2014-10-13T16:36:57Z beach: Everything green is constant.
2014-10-13T16:37:16Z beach: nyef: Yes, a gensymed temporary lexical variable.
2014-10-13T16:37:52Z beach: There are a lot of unnecessary temporaries in there.  Those will be eliminated in later analyses.
2014-10-13T16:38:58Z ggole: I take it red lines are data dependencies, and blue... outputs?
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2014-10-13T16:39:16Z beach: Red is input and blue is output, yes.
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2014-10-13T16:39:49Z beach: Thick black lines are control arcs.
2014-10-13T16:41:19Z ggole: Right, a pretty clear graph ir
2014-10-13T16:41:26Z ggole: The extra temporaries were a bit surprising though
2014-10-13T16:41:27Z drmeister: beach: What is "<-"?
2014-10-13T16:41:35Z beach: drmeister: Assignment.
2014-10-13T16:42:08Z beach: ggole: It simplifies the MIR generation step.  They are automatically eliminated if not needed in later steps.
2014-10-13T16:42:16Z drmeister: And what are the "1"'s next to the edges?
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2014-10-13T16:42:50Z ggole: Input numbers, looks like
2014-10-13T16:42:51Z beach: I had to number the inputs, outputs and successors, because I couldn't figure out how to make Graphviz render them in a particular order.
2014-10-13T16:43:06Z drmeister: Got it.
2014-10-13T16:43:43Z beach: I haven't put too much work into the rendering; only enough for me to be able to use it for debugging.
2014-10-13T16:44:57Z drmeister: Black lines are flow of execution?
2014-10-13T16:45:20Z beach: But I don't know what I would have done without it.  Using the inspector is not an option.  Too hard to remember the addresses of various instances between two inspector windows.
2014-10-13T16:46:14Z ggole: You could generate text in a preorder pass over the graph easily enough
2014-10-13T16:46:36Z ggole: On the other hand, printing dependencies as numbers and lining them up mentally probably isn't much easier.
2014-10-13T16:46:39Z beach: A textual representation of the graph?  Sure.  I prefer this though.
2014-10-13T16:50:06Z ggole: Hmm, graphviz has tooltips: you could make it pretty useful with a bit of work.
2014-10-13T16:50:16Z ggole: Probably a good choice.
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2014-10-13T16:50:32Z drmeister: beach: It looks like fun.  I'll be translating that... into this http://imgur.com/nFKxDZQ
2014-10-13T16:51:13Z drmeister: beach: You have code already that chops your MIR graphs into basic-blocks - correct?
2014-10-13T16:51:29Z isBEKaml: Hi, I got a question (somewhat silly): Let's say I got a defun like this -> (defun addn (x) #'(lambda (n) (+ x n)))
2014-10-13T16:51:32Z beach: drmeister: I do, but I am thinking of doing that on the fly.
2014-10-13T16:52:01Z drmeister: Isn't it more of a final, post-processing thing?
2014-10-13T16:52:05Z isBEKaml: How would I use this addn ? I understand that it generates another function that takes a value for addition. But how would I invoke it to do so?
2014-10-13T16:52:14Z beach: drmeister: It is trivial to do and it doesn't help much to keep the basic blocks around, because there will be a lot of modifications to them.
2014-10-13T16:52:38Z isBEKaml: ((addn 3) 42) --> should give me 45. Pardon the syntax-snafu. :-)
2014-10-13T16:52:40Z beach: drmeister: Well, it is sometimes useful for some algorithms to have them.
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2014-10-13T16:53:00Z ggole: isBEKaml: (funcall (addn 3) 42)
2014-10-13T16:53:07Z shka: ggole: isn't it a library used in the land of lisp for gtw?
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2014-10-13T16:54:05Z ggole: What, graphviz?
2014-10-13T16:54:22Z isBEKaml: ggole: Ah, funcall. Thanks!
2014-10-13T16:55:01Z beach: Dinner.  I might be back later.  I'll read the logs if anyone has any remarks or questions.
2014-10-13T16:55:13Z drmeister: beach: Do you differentiate between registers and memory at this point?
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2014-10-13T16:55:23Z drmeister: Ok, ttyl
2014-10-13T16:55:44Z ggole: Looks like just values to me
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2014-10-13T17:01:46Z drmeister: beach: This looks really, really nice.
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2014-10-13T17:04:07Z shka: ggole: yes
2014-10-13T17:04:24Z ggole: I don't know what land of lisp does
2014-10-13T17:04:33Z ggole: Graphviz is everywhere though, it is very popular
2014-10-13T17:06:48Z shka: ggole: it is a funny introduction to lisp
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2014-10-13T17:07:31Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc
2014-10-13T17:07:42Z shka: ggole: it is actually quite a good book
2014-10-13T17:07:57Z shka: example project are quite interesting
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2014-10-13T17:31:19Z beach: drmeister: Thanks!
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2014-10-13T17:31:49Z beach: drmeister: No registers at this stage.  This is before any optimization, before register allocation, before value numbering, etc, etc, etc.
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2014-10-13T17:40:44Z drmeister: beach: I can't express how excited I am by this.  I can see the shape of the MIR->LLVM-IR translator so clearly now.  Please keep me up to date when you think Cleavir would be ready for me to start on.
2014-10-13T17:40:57Z beach: Sure.
2014-10-13T17:42:00Z beach: OK, time for me to go hang out with my (admittedly small) family.
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2014-10-13T17:42:20Z drmeister: beach: Even if it's just the environment and S-expressions -> AST part.  I'm very tied up with my lab move and a proposal a paper that I have to get out in the next couple of weeks but by November I should have time to get started.
2014-10-13T17:42:35Z stacksmith: Hey guys.  Can someone clarify the meaning of this output from SBCL (printing a structure): "#1=#S(... :content:#1#)"
2014-10-13T17:42:55Z stacksmith: Is this how self-referential structures are printed?
2014-10-13T17:42:57Z nightfly: yup
2014-10-13T17:43:07Z jasom: clhs #=
2014-10-13T17:43:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dho.htm
2014-10-13T17:43:17Z jasom: nightfly: lok at that link
2014-10-13T17:43:23Z jasom: er stacksmith rather
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2014-10-13T17:43:28Z stacksmith: Thans
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2014-10-13T17:45:50Z Xach: stacksmith: it's a way to print self-referential structure without the printer getting stuck in an infinite loop of output.
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2014-10-13T17:54:44Z stacksmith: Xach and jasom thank you. That is what I thought.
2014-10-13T17:55:42Z antoszka: |3b|, ggole, thx.
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2014-10-13T17:59:00Z Adlai: stacksmith: it's also a way to read self-referential structure, eg: (#1=(lambda (code) `(,code ',code)) '#1#)
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2014-10-13T18:07:46Z stacksmith: Adlai, thanks, I figured that what's printed can be read...
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2014-10-13T18:20:46Z dim: I'm quite surprised by Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY: Component :CHIPZ not found, required by #<SYSTEM "drakma">
2014-10-13T18:20:53Z dim: (ql:who-depends-on "chipz")
2014-10-13T18:20:53Z dim: ("3b-swf" "3b-swf-writer" "png-read" "qmynd" "s-http-client" "swf-writer-hack")
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2014-10-13T18:21:08Z dim: I'm not sure how to make sense of that?
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2014-10-13T18:23:10Z ynniv: ack006: have you seen og hang on startup with a white screen and a partially written status bar?
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2014-10-13T18:23:39Z ynniv: seems like it’s crashing X11
2014-10-13T18:23:40Z ack006: ynniv: only white screen, no text afaikr
2014-10-13T18:23:48Z ack006: *afaicr
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2014-10-13T18:24:10Z ynniv: it only happens sometimes. have you tried running my vm scripts? they almost reliably result in a functioning system
2014-10-13T18:24:20Z ynniv: except for this problem
2014-10-13T18:24:23Z ack006: ynniv: you might like to check out xlibtrace, to trace xlib calls
2014-10-13T18:24:43Z ynniv: I’m doing that now, and the problem isn’t reproducing :-P
2014-10-13T18:24:56Z ynniv: which usually means it’s a timing bug
2014-10-13T18:24:57Z ack006: ynniv: yes i tried, but sadly it didn't work out, probably problem on my side with vagrant or ruby gems or something
2014-10-13T18:25:12Z ynniv: what’s your host?
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2014-10-13T18:25:31Z slyrus_: well the good news is that this beirc process hasn't dropped into sldb after a few days of usage
2014-10-13T18:25:47Z ack006: ynniv: host as in genera host? or my system, it's arch linux x86_64
2014-10-13T18:25:53Z slyrus_: the bad news is that it seems to cons like crazy
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2014-10-13T18:26:43Z ack006: ynniv: are you using xlibtrace? have you used it with recent xlib? if so you need to add a new struct
2014-10-13T18:27:10Z ack006: ynniv: btw what a wonderful use of macros the xlibtrace dev makes, reminds me a lot of lisp :-)
2014-10-13T18:27:31Z ynniv: hmm, haven’t tried it on arch linux. I did just replace chef with a shell script, which might make it less brittle
2014-10-13T18:27:53Z ack006: ynniv: i'm interested :-)
2014-10-13T18:28:53Z ack006: ynniv: wrt c preprocessor macros in xlibtrace, i can't think of a more poignant example of greenspun's tenth rule! :-D
2014-10-13T18:29:05Z Xach: dim: what do you get from (ql:dist-version "quicklisp")?
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2014-10-13T18:30:29Z ynniv: ack006: I’m on MacOSX 10.9.4 with vagrant 1.6.5, virtualbox 4.3.10, and veewee 0.4.1
2014-10-13T18:30:31Z ack006: ynniv: i think these things were almost directly ported from a lisp implementation hihi
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2014-10-13T18:31:30Z ynniv: I’ve heard that early X development involved lisp
2014-10-13T18:31:38Z ack006: ynniv: thanks. i think i'm also going to try manually setting up a virtualbox image. i have a script to setup an arch linux vm like that
2014-10-13T18:32:17Z ack006: ynniv: so i read (in the famous genera irc log :-) ) i can't find any references beyond that, but i'm very interested to know more about that
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2014-10-13T18:33:21Z ynniv: The reason I used veewee is that og only runs on old X11. My host is Ubuntu-7.10, and I didn’t want to deal with making that run on virutalbox.
2014-10-13T18:33:22Z ack006: ynniv: things like motif, x resources, the old x window managers, etc. were much more in the spirit of lisp than anything that came after. i surely miss those ;-)
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2014-10-13T18:33:47Z ack006: ynniv: ah i see
2014-10-13T18:34:46Z ynniv: You might be able to manually run the scripts in https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera/tree/master/definitions/ubuntu-7.10-server-amd64, which is the veewee definition file for that version of ubuntu
2014-10-13T18:35:12Z ack006: ynniv: x with all todays flashy widgets, configuration guis and everything actually are much less flexible than what was before
2014-10-13T18:35:24Z ack006: ynniv: thanks, will look into it :-)
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2014-10-13T18:36:07Z altamic: hello from a lisp noobie, I am trying to grasp http://hastebin.com/uziluqavux.lisp can you help me?
2014-10-13T18:36:10Z ynniv: what is the xlibtrace struct I might need?
2014-10-13T18:36:50Z ack006: ynniv: just a moment, i'll look it up (it's only needed if you plan on wrapping genera to use latest xlib)
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2014-10-13T18:38:26Z Grue`: altamic: that looks like #scheme material
2014-10-13T18:40:33Z altamic: I can give more context: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru/blob/master/boot.l#L131 it's from Maru a lisp metacircular evaluator that bootstrap itself
2014-10-13T18:40:54Z Bike: paste isn't working for me
2014-10-13T18:41:09Z altamic: by Ian Piumarta (a living legend)
2014-10-13T18:41:26Z Bike: oh, no, there it goes
2014-10-13T18:41:29Z ack006: ynniv: you'll need to write a set of macros for XGenericEventCookie struct, which was added quire recently to xlib
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2014-10-13T18:41:51Z Bike: altamic: it defines define-form as a macro ("form") then uses it to define define-function
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2014-10-13T18:42:50Z ack006: ynniv: if you want to see what i mean by xlibtrace being lispy, please have a look at this (it's almost like a long backtrace from a lisp debugger :-D ) http://pastie.org/9645085
2014-10-13T18:42:55Z Bike: this style of definition is mostly unique to maru, you'd want to look up the definition of 'form' and so on, eslewhere
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2014-10-13T18:44:01Z ack006: ynniv: you may want to compile xlibtrace using `clang -fmacro-backtrace-limit=0` to see all the expansions (and some errors which gcc doesn't catch ;-) )
2014-10-13T18:44:10Z altamic: Bike: the exact opposite! :)
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2014-10-13T18:44:20Z Bike: huh?
2014-10-13T18:44:41Z altamic: I am interested in how it is obtained within a system that bootstrap itself :)
2014-10-13T18:45:09Z Bike: i don't know what you mean by 'bootstrap itself', you run boot.l in the evaluator written in c
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2014-10-13T18:45:20Z Bike: and i'm not sure what that's the opposite of
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2014-10-13T18:46:00Z ynniv: ack006: I don’t see XGenericEventCookie in /usr/lib/X11, so I think it must have been added after ubuntu-7.10
2014-10-13T18:46:12Z altamic: well it's a bit complex
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2014-10-13T18:46:24Z ack006: ynniv: probably true ;-)
2014-10-13T18:46:59Z ack006: ynniv: i'm working in the other direction from you: trying to add back old xlib functionality to genera running with new xlib hihi :-)
2014-10-13T18:47:23Z Bike: okay, right, i think 'form' is defined in the compiler, that makes sense of course
2014-10-13T18:47:43Z Bike: ...wow, this repo is way more complicated than piumarta's
2014-10-13T18:48:07Z altamic: it's v2.4
2014-10-13T18:48:17Z Bike: https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru/blob/master/compile.l#L174-L182 anyway, here's macroexpansion
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2014-10-13T18:49:47Z altamic: I am working on it :)
2014-10-13T18:51:26Z ynniv: ack006: why are you trying to run on a newer X11?
2014-10-13T18:52:29Z ack006: ynniv: to make it easier for people to run genera :-) no vm setup, just a bridge to host tun0, nfs / nis setup, done :-) at least that's the idea
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2014-10-13T18:53:47Z ack006: ynniv: i "just know" that it can be done, genera links even with the newest glibc and xlib, i can enter lisp in the debugger, i think it's just the xlib things that need sorting out
2014-10-13T18:54:20Z jasom: which implementation is easiest to retarget and cross compile to a completely new platform?
2014-10-13T18:54:52Z altamic: Bike, what is the meaning of the prefixed comma in `(define ,name (form (lambda ,args ,@body))) ?
2014-10-13T18:55:23Z altamic: and what the @ is used for?
2014-10-13T18:55:34Z InvalidCo: those are readermacros
2014-10-13T18:55:39Z jasom: clhs `
2014-10-13T18:55:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2014-10-13T18:55:47Z InvalidCo: they evaluate to symbols called backquote and such
2014-10-13T18:55:56Z InvalidCo: or rather
2014-10-13T18:55:57Z ynniv: ack006: that’s easier than running a vm? ;-)
2014-10-13T18:56:12Z InvalidCo: they enclose the following atom in (backquote <form>)
2014-10-13T18:56:22Z altamic: mmm
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2014-10-13T18:56:32Z jasom: InvalidCo: that's not actually how it's defined; just one common way of implementing it
2014-10-13T18:56:45Z InvalidCo: jasom: oh cool, I didn't realize one could search the clhs with symbols
2014-10-13T18:56:59Z jasom: InvalidCo: I think you can only search it with symbols and chapter numbers
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2014-10-13T18:57:10Z InvalidCo: heh
2014-10-13T18:57:12Z jasom: well and reader macros
2014-10-13T18:57:16Z jasom: in this case it's actually not a symbol
2014-10-13T18:57:18Z ack006: ynniv: considering how far i've come already, yes :-) when i tried to setup your vagrant build, it felt like compiling haskell platform from scratch, it just kept digging up gems like it was a mine in sierra leone or something :-D
2014-10-13T18:57:22Z InvalidCo: I meant symbols in a character sense
2014-10-13T18:57:26Z jasom: ah
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2014-10-13T18:57:33Z InvalidCo: it's a cool feature
2014-10-13T18:57:36Z ynniv: haha
2014-10-13T18:58:08Z ack006: ynniv: arch linux doesn't like packaging gems that much, so you've got to build almost all of them yourself
2014-10-13T18:58:12Z jasom: altamic: , and ,@ have special meaning when inside a form prefixed with `
2014-10-13T18:58:18Z ynniv: I agree, the tooling is overkill. I’d like to reduce it, but first I’d like to get it working correctly.
2014-10-13T18:58:31Z ack006: ynniv: sure, agreed! :-)
2014-10-13T18:59:04Z InvalidCo: I remember having a hard time searching for info on reader macros in the clhs
2014-10-13T18:59:07Z ynniv: Ultimately I think a VM is easier than native, tho
2014-10-13T18:59:22Z InvalidCo: there was some kind of a comprehensive list without actual links or something
2014-10-13T18:59:36Z InvalidCo: and of course google is not that helpful when you type in odd characters
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2014-10-13T19:00:48Z altamic: jasom: where can I find such meaning defined in the source code?
2014-10-13T19:01:36Z ynniv: once a vm image has been created, you can easily pause/resume it and snapshot it
2014-10-13T19:01:44Z jasom: altamic: I posted a link to the hyperspec
2014-10-13T19:01:53Z ynniv: and you never have to worry about messing up your system
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2014-10-13T19:02:56Z InvalidCo: one of the cool things I like is that in lispland, everyone and their grandma has a dozen of hobbyist toy lisp projects
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2014-10-13T19:03:13Z ack006: ynniv: sure, it's usually the best way to test things like this. i don't worry too much about mine because i can do many things with systemd-nspawn which aren't easy to do in a chroot or vm
2014-10-13T19:03:16Z InvalidCo: which, I think, is a direct result of the internals being exposed the way they are
2014-10-13T19:03:24Z jasom: altamic: you can also see a few examples here http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html (search for `)
2014-10-13T19:03:24Z altamic: thank you jasom
2014-10-13T19:04:34Z Xach: InvalidCo: what kind of hobbyist toy lisp project?
2014-10-13T19:04:38Z ack006: InvalidCo: Lisp all the way down, yay. try hitting M-. in slime at just about any function or macro in the system. you'll be right at the source
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2014-10-13T19:05:14Z InvalidCo: yup
2014-10-13T19:05:24Z InvalidCo: one of the main reasons I root for CLX and not some qt-smoke-binding
2014-10-13T19:05:37Z InvalidCo: ;)
2014-10-13T19:05:40Z ack006: InvalidCo: :-)
2014-10-13T19:05:55Z InvalidCo: Xach: you know, writing a lisp interpreter in C, C++, other Lisps
2014-10-13T19:05:57Z Bike: altamic: you should keep in mind that this channel is for common lisp. though it may genuinely be a good idea to do some lisp programming before you look at something arcane like maru
2014-10-13T19:06:30Z Xach: InvalidCo: Oh. I find that kind of thing pretty uninteresting, and I'm glad it's not a frequent topic of discussion here.
2014-10-13T19:06:38Z InvalidCo: mm
2014-10-13T19:06:46Z InvalidCo: but I find it almost a rite of passage
2014-10-13T19:06:56Z Xach: Perhaps, something to be discarded with maturity.
2014-10-13T19:07:20Z InvalidCo: something everybody should try to better understand the things their computers and software do
2014-10-13T19:07:38Z ack006: InvalidCo: it is a rite of passage for some, to behold the joy of programming, instead of rote learning some huge api like boost or swing
2014-10-13T19:07:39Z InvalidCo: and something that C and C++ people rarely do
2014-10-13T19:07:53Z altamic: Bike: I am learning a bunch of things from maru source code
2014-10-13T19:08:13Z altamic: and BTW what do you propose?
2014-10-13T19:08:15Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2014-10-13T19:08:22Z ack006: InvalidCo: you may like this Learn C • Build Your Own Lisp : http://www.buildyourownlisp.com/
2014-10-13T19:08:32Z ack006: InvalidCo: no plug, i'm not the author ;)
2014-10-13T19:08:46Z zacts: ack006: I saw that, but I don't think it teaches idiomatic C.
2014-10-13T19:08:53Z InvalidCo: ack006: heh, cool
2014-10-13T19:09:05Z InvalidCo: I just sped through the 99-line implementation
2014-10-13T19:09:07Z zacts: and some of the sections are too vague / misleading, as far as the C  goes
2014-10-13T19:09:16Z InvalidCo: and wrote my own slightly bloated version
2014-10-13T19:09:19Z ack006: zacts: i don't think that was really its goal ;)
2014-10-13T19:09:33Z zacts: yeah
2014-10-13T19:09:50Z InvalidCo: but that project died when I began thinking about implementing stack unwinding protection with assembly
2014-10-13T19:09:56Z zacts: well, there is that lisp / scheme book on implementing compilers / interpreters that I think would be better
2014-10-13T19:10:03Z zacts: let me see if I can find the link
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2014-10-13T19:10:29Z ack006: a few weeks ago i came across a really wonderful article explaining the eval / metacircular interpreter idea, in a much better way than sicp
2014-10-13T19:10:38Z InvalidCo: of course, the more important thing to do would be to implement the stack as a C array instead of calling your C eval func recursively
2014-10-13T19:10:50Z ack006: haven't been able to find it since, i think i came there by reading the articles of mccarthy himself ;)
2014-10-13T19:11:14Z InvalidCo: but I didn't have the tenacity to go through with it at the time
2014-10-13T19:11:28Z zacts: http://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Small-Pieces-Christian-Queinnec/dp/0521545668
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2014-10-13T19:12:47Z jasom: minion: tell altamic about pcl
2014-10-13T19:12:47Z minion: altamic: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2014-10-13T19:13:58Z altamic: jasom: thank you, thank you, thank you :D
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2014-10-13T19:14:27Z ack006: jasom: amen
2014-10-13T19:14:38Z jasom: altamic: I'm assuming you have programming experience in general?  PCL is targeted for programmers learning lisp; There's another book better if you are learning programming and lisp at the same time
2014-10-13T19:14:50Z altamic: about 15 years
2014-10-13T19:15:02Z jasom has a working ABCL repl in the browser via the Doppio JVM (A JVM implemented in javascript)
2014-10-13T19:15:26Z jasom: It's too slow to be useful for anything, but kind of neat
2014-10-13T19:15:28Z altamic: I started from C, then Java, Ruby, PHP, C#, Obj-C
2014-10-13T19:15:34Z ack006: jasom: cool, but how about memory usage?
2014-10-13T19:15:38Z jasom: altamic: yeah PCL should be the right level for you
2014-10-13T19:16:37Z ack006 shudders thinking about lisp gc'ing atop jvm gc'ing atop the browser gc'ing, anyone seen the movie "inception"?
2014-10-13T19:17:15Z nyef: Typically, if you implement Lisp over another substrate that already has GC, you use the host GC.
2014-10-13T19:17:25Z zacts: I'm still learning though.
2014-10-13T19:17:43Z InvalidCo: what if I told you that the browser most likely uses a high-level language
2014-10-13T19:17:44Z zacts: I'm started with Perl, now I'm learning Scheme and SICP, and then next is Common Lisp, and finally C
2014-10-13T19:17:47Z cy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2014-10-13T19:17:58Z InvalidCo: which has it's own gc (or at least the c++ kind-of-gc)
2014-10-13T19:18:04Z zacts: s/I'm/I/
2014-10-13T19:18:13Z InvalidCo: and then that gc uses kernel's memory allocation/management
2014-10-13T19:18:15Z jasom: altamic: about 1GB
2014-10-13T19:18:20Z jasom: er ack006 about 1gb
2014-10-13T19:18:27Z ack006: jasom: :-)
2014-10-13T19:19:11Z InvalidCo: I'd be more worried about whether the jvm jits to js and whether the browser jits the js to machine code
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2014-10-13T19:20:10Z InvalidCo: is it already possible to write java bytecode into executable memory and execute it?
2014-10-13T19:20:30Z InvalidCo: I read something about that but I wasn't quite sure if it meant something about oop dispatcher optimization or not
2014-10-13T19:20:58Z ack006: InvalidCo: i've read something about "hot-reload" for java which should do that
2014-10-13T19:21:14Z ynniv: InvalidCo: http://asm.ow2.org/ (used in clojure)
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2014-10-13T19:21:59Z InvalidCo: ynniv: very cool
2014-10-13T19:23:09Z ack006: ynniv: interesting :-)
2014-10-13T19:23:14Z Kruppe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2014-10-13T19:24:02Z jasom: InvalidCo: it's about 80x slower than abcl on my system jvm
2014-10-13T19:24:24Z ack006: jasom: but it's still very cool that it works at all :-)
2014-10-13T19:24:51Z jasom: took about 3 minutes just to startup abcl
2014-10-13T19:25:11Z InvalidCo: jasom: sounds still doable...I once wrote a qbasic interpreter on js using regexes
2014-10-13T19:25:29Z InvalidCo: I was going to this demoscene event and I wanted to make a qbasic demo which ran on js
2014-10-13T19:25:40Z ack006: wow :-)
2014-10-13T19:25:55Z InvalidCo: I made the mistake of developing the actual demo separately from the interpreter
2014-10-13T19:25:56Z jasom: numeric code seems particularly slow; 51s to calculate 10000 fibonacci number versus 0.1s on native jvm abcl
2014-10-13T19:26:01Z InvalidCo: and the interpreter was just too slow
2014-10-13T19:26:17Z InvalidCo: the deadline closed in so we just decided to show it as a qbasic demo
2014-10-13T19:26:45Z InvalidCo: in my defense, I was slightly intoxicated for those few days and thought that I could pull it off
2014-10-13T19:26:48Z InvalidCo: never again
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2014-10-13T19:27:11Z ack006: InvalidCo: of course you will, but now it'll be lisp :-)
2014-10-13T19:27:28Z White_Flame: InvalidCo: I believe reloading bytecode involves the regular classloader
2014-10-13T19:27:35Z White_Flame: the hot-loading feature is part of the debugger interface
2014-10-13T19:27:39Z jasom: but it's trivial to setup; just go here http://plasma-umass.github.io/doppio-demo/doppiojvm/index.html hit "upload files..." to upload the .jar file and then java -jar abc.jar
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2014-10-13T19:27:44Z White_Flame: and only works in certain instances, requiring a restart in others
2014-10-13T19:27:52Z InvalidCo: jasom: have you done any profiling on the different platform cases?
2014-10-13T19:27:58Z InvalidCo: ack006: but that wouldn't be as challenging ;)
2014-10-13T19:28:09Z InvalidCo: the whole point of those competitions is to show off in an artsy-fartsy way
2014-10-13T19:28:21Z ack006: InvalidCo: true :)
2014-10-13T19:28:27Z White_Flame: yeah, that's why I stick to the C64 demoscene
2014-10-13T19:28:31Z jasom: InvalidCo: I literally just have run a few simple functions from the repl
2014-10-13T19:28:33Z White_Flame: it's still about tech tricks ;)
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2014-10-13T19:29:20Z ack006: InvalidCo: well, lisp is absolutely great for livecoding, i've seen many demos using lisp dialects over the years
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2014-10-13T19:29:49Z InvalidCo: cool
2014-10-13T19:29:51Z InvalidCo: could you link some?
2014-10-13T19:30:03Z ack006: would have loved to see a lisp livecoding demo at revision next time, would beat writing shaders which only shader gurus understand
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2014-10-13T19:31:16Z InvalidCo: shaders are lots of fun
2014-10-13T19:31:17Z White_Flame: jasom:  yeah, if you're not using asm.js, then all numeric calculations go through floating point in JS
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2014-10-13T19:31:49Z jasom: White_Flame: not quite true, there are optimizations for treating small floats as integers in most VMs
2014-10-13T19:32:11Z White_Flame: as runtime tests, or as static analysis constraints?
2014-10-13T19:32:12Z jasom is loading quicklisp right now
2014-10-13T19:32:27Z ack006: InvalidCo: here's one for starters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmsZp3DgoTw
2014-10-13T19:32:35Z jasom: White_Flame: I don't know the details, I assumed it was a fast-path when JITing code
2014-10-13T19:32:44Z InvalidCo: ack006: cool, thanks!
2014-10-13T19:33:22Z jasom: oh, I need to fake up a quicklisp repo served over websockets for quicklisp to load
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2014-10-13T19:34:04Z ack006: InvalidCo: LiveCoding in CommonLisp. - YouTube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI
2014-10-13T19:34:26Z InvalidCo: can't see the actual code in the Fjords one :(
2014-10-13T19:34:40Z ack006: InvalidCo: that's why i send you the second one :-)
2014-10-13T19:34:57Z InvalidCo: ah, but I think I've seen this one!
2014-10-13T19:35:35Z ack006: you can find lots more if you search for 'livecoding scheme', many use scheme derivatives
2014-10-13T19:35:51Z jasom: ooh, quicklisp supports SOCKS proxy, right?
2014-10-13T19:36:30Z Xach: no.
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2014-10-13T19:36:34Z jasom: :(
2014-10-13T19:36:40Z jasom: that would have been the easiest
2014-10-13T19:36:53Z jasom thought drakma did
2014-10-13T19:37:08Z Xach: I'd like to make it more hookable so you could load quicklisp, then drop in some extra code to handle fetching stuff in whatever bootstrap-hostile way you want
2014-10-13T19:37:26Z Xach: Like shelling out to curl or what-have-you
2014-10-13T19:37:35Z ack006: InvalidCo: i liked this language the best, but i'm afraid it's no longer being maintained, and doesn't work with recent plt scheme http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF0taJpAesQ
2014-10-13T19:37:56Z Xach: Or using drakma, even
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2014-10-13T19:38:17Z jasom: does it just inlcude its own simple http client?
2014-10-13T19:38:22Z Xach: Yes.
2014-10-13T19:38:26Z jasom: ah
2014-10-13T19:38:42Z InvalidCo: heh, cool
2014-10-13T19:38:46Z Xach: The most advanced thing it does is grok chunked encoding
2014-10-13T19:38:50Z jasom doesn't know why he thought it used drakma
2014-10-13T19:38:57Z InvalidCo: one guy in finland wrote his own stack-based language for demo programming
2014-10-13T19:39:15Z Xach: Was it in Common Lisp?
2014-10-13T19:39:26Z ack006: InvalidCo: were you at revision last time?
2014-10-13T19:39:38Z InvalidCo: nah, I think the implementation specifics was c+sdl
2014-10-13T19:39:39Z InvalidCo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKMrBaXJvMs
2014-10-13T19:39:45Z InvalidCo: *headphone user alert*
2014-10-13T19:39:46Z Xach: InvalidCo: please discuss it elsewhere, then.
2014-10-13T19:39:50Z InvalidCo: starts with sawtooth
2014-10-13T19:39:58Z InvalidCo: ack006: sadly, no
2014-10-13T19:40:12Z InvalidCo: I've only been to finnish demoparties so far
2014-10-13T19:40:18Z ack006: InvalidCo: maybe next time we can show some *lisp* :-)
2014-10-13T19:40:21Z InvalidCo: :)
2014-10-13T19:40:24Z InvalidCo: maybe
2014-10-13T19:40:29Z Xach: jasom: I wanted to make bootstrapping small, and it made sense to reuse it for the actual client. but I'd also like to make it easy to drop in a smarter fetcher.
2014-10-13T19:41:02Z Xach: where smarter means: understands https, system proxy settings, or whatever else you might need
2014-10-13T19:41:26Z jasom: right
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2014-10-13T19:42:44Z ack006: InvalidCo: very cool video :-)
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2014-10-13T19:43:19Z InvalidCo: ack006: yes! :)
2014-10-13T19:43:21Z BitPuffin: Is there a way to run code only if it is SBCL?
2014-10-13T19:43:22Z BitPuffin: ie
2014-10-13T19:43:38Z Xach: BitPuffin: it goes lower than that: you can conditionalize what forms are *read*
2014-10-13T19:43:39Z BitPuffin: don't call (sb-ext:gc :full t) if compiler is not sbcl
2014-10-13T19:43:47Z BitPuffin: Xach: yeah that's what I want
2014-10-13T19:43:47Z InvalidCo: BitPuffin: #+sbcl
2014-10-13T19:43:48Z Xach: BitPuffin: the way to do that is #+sbcl (sb-ext:gc :full t)
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2014-10-13T19:44:15Z InvalidCo: it looks in the global variable *features* and checks if a symbol named SBCL is there
2014-10-13T19:44:21Z Xach: BitPuffin: see http://l1sp.org/cl/*features*
2014-10-13T19:44:30Z InvalidCo: you can also do the inverse
2014-10-13T19:44:38Z Xach: and http://l1sp.org/cl/1.5.2.1.1
2014-10-13T19:44:49Z InvalidCo: #-sbcl (print "No SBCL running")
2014-10-13T19:44:51Z BitPuffin: by the way does anyone know what (sb-ext:gc :full t) does?
2014-10-13T19:45:08Z Xach: BitPuffin: garbage collection.
2014-10-13T19:45:22Z BitPuffin: Xach: ah, you mean it's expilicitly doing a full collect?
2014-10-13T19:45:23Z jasom: BitPuffin: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Garbage-Collection
2014-10-13T19:45:36Z Xach: BitPuffin: yes.
2014-10-13T19:45:49Z BitPuffin: not deadly important then in this case probably
2014-10-13T19:45:56Z BitPuffin: (just fixing a portability issue in cl-liballegro)
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2014-10-13T19:46:14Z InvalidCo: ack006: have you seen this demo? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DCurP2a-FU
2014-10-13T19:46:19Z InvalidCo: one of my all-time favorites
2014-10-13T19:46:28Z InvalidCo: manages to do so much with so little effects
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2014-10-13T19:47:28Z jasom: BitPuffin: you could add a dependency to trivial garbage and use the gc function in that
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2014-10-13T19:48:24Z BitPuffin: jasom: hmm?
2014-10-13T19:48:25Z jasom: BitPuffin: the definition is here https://github.com/trivial-garbage/trivial-garbage/blob/master/trivial-garbage.lisp#L72
2014-10-13T19:48:40Z ack006: InvalidCo: :-)
2014-10-13T19:48:43Z BitPuffin: how do I conditionally read ccl code? #+ccl (gc) ?
2014-10-13T19:48:56Z jasom: BitPuffin: trivial-garbage is a library that provides portable versions of common garbage-collection related features by just being a thin-wrapper around the implementation-specific calls
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2014-10-13T19:49:42Z BitPuffin: jasom: that's pretty nice?
2014-10-13T19:49:44Z BitPuffin: !*
2014-10-13T19:49:47Z BitPuffin: is that in quicklisp?
2014-10-13T19:50:07Z jasom: BitPuffin: yup
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2014-10-13T19:51:10Z jasom: and it #+ccl is the correct way to find ccl, but ccl also puts :openmcl in *features* since it used to be called openmcl
2014-10-13T19:51:51Z BitPuffin: jasom: so I just do (trivial-garbage:gc ()) ?
2014-10-13T19:52:09Z jasom: BitPuffin: no (trivial-garbage:gc :full t)
2014-10-13T19:52:19Z BitPuffin: ah!
2014-10-13T19:53:20Z jasom: and you can do (tg:gc :full t) actually since it tg is an abbreviation for trivial-garbage
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2014-10-13T20:01:21Z ack006: ynniv: one of my goals is to make genera run as regular user, `setcap cap_net_admin,cap_net_raw+eip genera` is a first step
2014-10-13T20:01:31Z stacksmith: I am a bit confused.  In package foo I create a symbol bar.  I try to export it with (export (list foo)), and to looks ok.  But if I invoke the function that does it from another package, I get an error, symbol is not accessible to my current package.
2014-10-13T20:02:03Z stacksmith: Sorry, (export (list bar))
2014-10-13T20:02:05Z ack006: ynniv: and drop the call-out to ifconfig, i found that you can configure any ip address in .VLM
2014-10-13T20:02:41Z BitPuffin: https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro/pull/5 wee :)
2014-10-13T20:02:48Z BitPuffin: thanks jasom, appreciate it a lot
2014-10-13T20:02:51Z ack006: ynniv: then genera only needs caps to manage the network interfaces
2014-10-13T20:03:30Z Xach: stacksmith: Did you do (export (list bar)) or (export (list 'bar))?
2014-10-13T20:03:44Z stacksmith: Hm.
2014-10-13T20:05:00Z stacksmith: (export (list bar))
2014-10-13T20:05:15Z Xach: stacksmith: that will export the value of the variable bar.
2014-10-13T20:05:21Z Xach: stacksmith: not the symbol named "BAR"
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2014-10-13T20:07:04Z stacksmith: Well, my symbol is actually in a variable, so that is correct, I think.  It's (export (list data)), where data is 'bar.
2014-10-13T20:07:17Z stacksmith: It works if I am in-package foo.
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2014-10-13T20:07:55Z stacksmith: I bound *package* around the code that creates and exports symbols...
2014-10-13T20:08:26Z stacksmith: (let ((*package* foo)) ...)
2014-10-13T20:08:30Z Xach: stacksmith: what do you mean by "invoke the function that does it"?
2014-10-13T20:08:47Z stacksmith: There is a function that parses data and creates symbols in package foo.
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2014-10-13T20:09:04Z stacksmith: As long as I am (in-package :foo) debugging it, it works.
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2014-10-13T20:09:36Z Xach: (in-package :foo) is something that does (setf *package* (find-package :foo)) in an eval-when.
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2014-10-13T20:09:55Z stacksmith: To make it work form another package, I bind *package* in the parsing code to :foo.
2014-10-13T20:10:13Z stacksmith: It all worked, until I tried to export some symbols.
2014-10-13T20:10:14Z Xach: stacksmith: to :foo, or to (find-package :foo)?
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2014-10-13T20:10:41Z stacksmith: Xach, sorry, (find-package :foo).
2014-10-13T20:11:25Z Xach: stacksmith: and you want to export the symbols from the package named FOO, too?
2014-10-13T20:12:00Z stacksmith: yes, I want to export 'bar from package foo.
2014-10-13T20:12:21Z Xach: stacksmith: (export 'foo::bar :foo) will do that.
2014-10-13T20:12:29Z stacksmith: Oh.
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2014-10-13T20:12:38Z Xach: if *package* is the result of (find-package :foo), you can omit the :foo.
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2014-10-13T20:12:59Z stacksmith: How would I do it programmatically? symbol bar is in a variable...
2014-10-13T20:13:30Z Xach: stacksmith: Does the symbol in the variable have a home package of FOO?
2014-10-13T20:13:36Z Xach: if so, you can do (export var :foo)
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2014-10-13T20:14:22Z stacksmith: If I print it, it comes out as (foo::bar), I believe
2014-10-13T20:14:46Z Xach: Then (export var :foo) will make it print as FOO:BAR.
2014-10-13T20:14:59Z Xach: (or some variation, depending on *package*)
2014-10-13T20:15:40Z stacksmith: I'll check again.    That is what I am doing, but the error stated that bar is not accessible in baz.
2014-10-13T20:16:36Z stacksmith: Yes, "these symbols are not accessible in BAZ package: FOO:BAR)
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2014-10-13T20:17:01Z stacksmith: a (print myvar) just before the export states FOO:BAR
2014-10-13T20:17:22Z stacksmith: I must be doing something really stupid here...
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2014-10-13T20:19:39Z stacksmith: The export statement is in a function that creates and sets the value of the symbol, inside package FOO, with *package* bound to FOO just in case.
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2014-10-13T20:21:52Z Xach: stacksmith: how are you refereincing the symbol in BAZ?
2014-10-13T20:22:49Z stacksmith: I am not.  I am just invoking the function that creates foo:bar.
2014-10-13T20:23:11Z stacksmith: The export statement is where it errors.
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2014-10-13T20:24:36Z Xach: stacksmith: what does your export call look like?
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2014-10-13T20:25:09Z stacksmith: Does export need a list?
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2014-10-13T20:25:25Z Xach: stacksmith: what does your export call look like?
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2014-10-13T20:29:15Z stacksmith: OK, I can't export anything.  I am now trying to export a special var in foo called *dev*.  (export 'foo::*dev*)
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2014-10-13T20:29:55Z Xach: stacksmith: (export 'foo::*dev* :foo)
2014-10-13T20:31:06Z stacksmith: Yes, I just did that.  Same deal, foo::*dev* not accessible to CL-USER.
2014-10-13T20:31:33Z Xach: Can you show a transcript, including the error message?
2014-10-13T20:32:14Z Xach: stacksmith: you got an error about CL-USER when you typed (export 'foo::*dev* :foo)?
2014-10-13T20:32:23Z Xach: I suspect something may have gotten lost in translation.
2014-10-13T20:32:46Z White_Flame: Or you might want to try cycling your lisp image, if your testing has borked up something in your packages
2014-10-13T20:33:03Z Xach: It would have to be very borked for my export form to fail.
2014-10-13T20:33:17Z stacksmith: I just restarted.  I should really work up a test case, since my code is a little more complicated.
2014-10-13T20:34:01Z White_Flame: stacksmith: The CLHS page says that you get that error when the symbol isn't accessible in the package you provide as the 2nd argument
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2014-10-13T20:34:19Z White_Flame: for it to error on inaccessibility for a completely different package is pretty incomprehensible
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2014-10-13T20:36:53Z stacksmith: It is ridiculous.  The error refers to the package I am currently in!  I will do some digging.
2014-10-13T20:37:04Z Xach: stacksmith: are you using the two-argument form of EXPORT?
2014-10-13T20:37:23Z Xach: I think it would help to see the code you are using.
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2014-10-13T20:37:32Z White_Flame: it smells like a syntax-related pebkac
2014-10-13T20:38:14Z stacksmith: Give me a few minutes...
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2014-10-13T20:39:57Z stacksmith: Well, I must've borked something as it seems to work now, (export var :foo).
2014-10-13T20:41:32Z Xach: frabjous day!
2014-10-13T20:41:39Z stacksmith: Thank you.
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2014-10-13T20:46:58Z InvalidCo: would someone like to help me rephrase some documentation?
2014-10-13T20:47:04Z InvalidCo: I fear this doesn't clarify the situation at all https://github.com/InvalidCo/clx/blob/master/doublebuffer.lisp#L91
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2014-10-13T21:13:49Z dim: Xach: "2014-07-14"
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2014-10-13T21:14:07Z dim: ok I guess I should update then, good point
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2014-10-13T21:15:18Z dim: on "2014-08-26" I have the same list tho
2014-10-13T21:16:05Z dim: ah, on "2014-10-06" I get another list which includes chipz
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2014-10-13T21:24:25Z jebes: is there a set of lisp bindings for modern opengl?
2014-10-13T21:25:11Z jebes: nvm
2014-10-13T21:25:58Z InvalidCo: jebes: if you write GLSL shaders, remember to check out this https://github.com/cbaggers/varjo
2014-10-13T21:26:03Z wasamasa: jebes: did you find any?
2014-10-13T21:26:43Z jebes: i read cl-opengl can do 3.x, trying now
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2014-10-13T21:28:52Z jebes: no, it apperas it doesn't
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2014-10-13T21:29:00Z jebes: appears*
2014-10-13T21:29:29Z InvalidCo: what does it lack?
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2014-10-13T21:30:18Z jebes: 3.x/4.x support
2014-10-13T21:30:59Z moore33: That is not correct.
2014-10-13T21:31:14Z jebes: it does support them? I can't find anything about it anywhere
2014-10-13T21:31:35Z moore33: It includes the functions from 4.5, as well as the extensions.
2014-10-13T21:32:03Z moore33: Let me check, to make sure I'm not spewing nonsense :)
2014-10-13T21:32:10Z moore33: It certainly supports 4.4.
2014-10-13T21:32:33Z jebes: i'm planning on targeting 3.2, so if it supports 4.4, i should be fine
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2014-10-13T21:32:38Z InvalidCo: some of the more recent commits are implying it has at least some 4.5
2014-10-13T21:32:48Z InvalidCo: update low-level bindings (%gl:) to gl 4.5
2014-10-13T21:32:50Z InvalidCo: 22 days
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2014-10-13T21:33:00Z jebes: yeah, i just saw that. Never thought of lookking at the commits
2014-10-13T21:33:05Z jebes: thank you
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2014-10-13T22:07:14Z Shaftoe___: drmeister: what's the status on your clasp based lisp?
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2014-10-13T22:11:42Z jasom: Shaftoe___: it's possible to build it from the github sources now
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2014-10-13T22:13:04Z Shaftoe___: oh nice. what' the project called?
2014-10-13T22:14:03Z jasom: clasp
2014-10-13T22:14:54Z jasom: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp
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2014-10-13T22:16:05Z Shaftoe___: great. thank you
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2014-10-13T22:18:04Z Bicyclidine: there's #clasp if you want to look at people trying to get it to build more sanely
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