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2014-10-12T00:08:43Z Vivitron`: pjb: sb-ext:defglobal changes the behavior of let, so imo it is probably a good idea   to use some sort of naming convention with it. (defglobal is not like deflex: defglobal prevents the creation of shadowing bindings)
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2014-10-12T01:24:41Z pjb: Vivitron`: ah in that case it's behaving a little like defconstant, and I guess +x+ could be used.
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2014-10-12T04:02:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-10-12T04:02:29Z beach: Any ops on?
2014-10-12T04:03:05Z beach: If so, please kick utesso!  PM spam!
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2014-10-12T04:08:07Z theos: hey beach !
2014-10-12T04:09:25Z theos: hmm utesso's ip looks legit but it sends a pm when you say something in channel :S
2014-10-12T04:09:49Z beach: Yeah, it was too quick to be a person.
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2014-10-12T04:15:43Z theos: them lisp bots!
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2014-10-12T04:20:29Z beach: You think this is a conspiracy between specbot and minion?
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2014-10-12T04:56:41Z drmeister: beach - have you ever read "True Names" by Vernor Vinge?
2014-10-12T04:57:11Z drmeister: It's a great story about AI
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2014-10-12T05:03:22Z beach: drmeister: Can't say I have.  Sorry.
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2014-10-12T06:49:21Z beach: drmeister: Can LLVM handle nested functions?
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2014-10-12T08:08:02Z beach: I defined some new projects on the Lisp projects page: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2014-10-12T08:10:06Z hitecnologys: beach: is this now an official list of needed applications/libraries?
2014-10-12T08:10:49Z beach: Well, it is MY official list.  It is not sanctioned by any higher authorities.
2014-10-12T08:11:03Z beach: Why do you ask?
2014-10-12T08:11:18Z beach: Oh, and it is not complete yet.  I am moving and updating the previous one.
2014-10-12T08:11:22Z hitecnologys: Just curious.
2014-10-12T08:12:12Z beach: It is also not set in stone.  I am just writing down what comes to mind.
2014-10-12T08:12:15Z hitecnologys: You should also probably add init system (the one that has PID = 1) to "System code".
2014-10-12T08:12:36Z hitecnologys: I think it's more important than X server
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2014-10-12T08:12:57Z beach: I don't understand what you mean by "init system" and PID = 1.
2014-10-12T08:13:22Z hitecnologys: The process that is run by kernel before any other processes are run.
2014-10-12T08:13:44Z beach: Except that the LispOS I am thinking of writing will have neither a kernel nor processes.
2014-10-12T08:14:03Z hitecnologys: I see.
2014-10-12T08:14:20Z hitecnologys: Makes sense.
2014-10-12T08:14:26Z beach: If it did, it would be just like an existing system, and what would be the point of that?
2014-10-12T08:15:10Z beach: You can check out the link to the LispOS.  It explains a bit more
2014-10-12T08:15:25Z hitecnologys: Yes, I'm reading that at the moment.
2014-10-12T08:23:42Z hitecnologys: beach: if memristors become widespread, single address space may come in handy.
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2014-10-12T08:26:17Z beach: Yes, but it will come in handy anyway.
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2014-10-12T08:27:48Z hitecnologys: Sure. Also, tag-based FS is what I've been wanting for years. I was even thinking of writing my own.
2014-10-12T08:27:59Z beach: Good!
2014-10-12T08:27:59Z beach:  
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2014-10-12T08:28:30Z beach: That's actually a fairly simple part of the LispOS.
2014-10-12T08:28:56Z hitecnologys: I might join the OS project, if it's not done, in a few years, when I take care of what I have now on my plate.
2014-10-12T08:29:08Z beach: Excellent!
2014-10-12T08:29:22Z beach: It depends on SICL which depends on Cleavir which is what I am working on now.
2014-10-12T08:29:24Z hitecnologys: But it's more likely to be > 5.
2014-10-12T08:29:41Z beach: What is on your plate right now?
2014-10-12T08:30:14Z hitecnologys: 5 active and one "do when you want" projects.
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2014-10-12T08:30:43Z hitecnologys: And also studies.
2014-10-12T08:30:52Z beach: Are any of those projects public and Lisp related?
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2014-10-12T08:31:44Z hitecnologys: 4 of them are in Lisp and 3 of 4 are publicly available. Fifth is commertial (well, supposed to be. I know it sounds funny).
2014-10-12T08:32:12Z hitecnologys: I mean the one that is not avalable by fifth.
2014-10-12T08:32:33Z beach: Do you have links to the 3?
2014-10-12T08:32:35Z hitecnologys: The one that is not in Lisp is not available too but it will be some day.
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2014-10-12T08:34:17Z hitecnologys: 2 of them are on my GitHub page: JAMS, ISoL, and the latter is on BitBucket. Links to pages can be found on hitecnologys.org.
2014-10-12T08:34:32Z beach: Thanks.
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2014-10-12T08:35:04Z hitecnologys: And those active are not really all of them. I have more than 5 that are in suspended state now but I'll return to them later.
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2014-10-12T08:35:58Z beach: OK.
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2014-10-12T08:38:11Z beach: Hah, I can actually read some of the Russian text!
2014-10-12T08:38:29Z beach: "master", "develop", ...
2014-10-12T08:38:42Z beach: I bet you didn't count on that.
2014-10-12T08:40:06Z hitecnologys: Not really. Russian text was there as I was too lazy to change layout to write it in English and also because project is done by request of some of guys who are Russians.
2014-10-12T08:42:26Z hitecnologys: If you're viewing cl-geohack, it was done for hackathon organized by EST (United Taxi Service). It's not active anymore and is preserved for historical purposes.
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2014-10-12T08:53:30Z beach: I see.
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2014-10-12T10:51:47Z beach: Please give me ideas for a library of different types of parser generators.  The name must contain the letter combination "cl", and it should give few hits on Google search.  It could be a word in which "kl" or "ckl" has been replaced by "Common Lisp".  And it should preferably suggest parsing.
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2014-10-12T10:53:06Z pjb: clarser
2014-10-12T10:53:18Z pjb: utesso is still here.
2014-10-12T10:53:48Z beach: The letters "cl" do not have to be the first ones.
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2014-10-12T10:59:44Z hitecnologys: PCl5
2014-10-12T11:00:18Z beach: What does it mean?
2014-10-12T11:00:54Z hitecnologys: P for parser. Cl for CL. Phophorous chloride.
2014-10-12T11:02:27Z beach: Got it.
2014-10-12T11:02:49Z hitecnologys: But it does give quite a lot of results on Google, though.
2014-10-12T11:03:11Z beach: Yes, not so goo.
2014-10-12T11:03:12Z hitecnologys: That was a joke in case you decide to use it. (There's this NaCl thing that is a fork of libsodium)
2014-10-12T11:03:13Z beach: d
2014-10-12T11:03:51Z beach: Ah, yes, that rings a bell.
2014-10-12T11:04:47Z hitecnologys: Chemical compounds are good, but they are not very good as names.
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2014-10-12T11:11:01Z phadthai: hmm no idea if it could inspire, but "rosetta stone" is useful in decoding languages, if this library generates parsing code, maybe that "rosetta" could be related (no CL in it, though, but that could be a prefix added to anything)
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2014-10-12T11:11:55Z beach: Hmm.
2014-10-12T11:12:09Z wasamasa: rosetta stone is an already existing, hugely popular language learning software
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2014-10-12T11:13:56Z phadthai: hmm did my recent irc line make it?  Interestingly irssi crashed as I was sending it
2014-10-12T11:14:07Z pjb: beach: the greek deity closest to parsing is Hermes, god of boundaries, travel, communication, trade, language, and writing.  clermes perhaps?
2014-10-12T11:14:39Z phadthai: if not, I was thinking that perhaps rosetta could be related, because of the decoding/parsing connotation
2014-10-12T11:14:45Z beach: phadthai: I saw the "rosetta stone" line.
2014-10-12T11:14:53Z phadthai: ah ok
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2014-10-12T11:19:19Z wasamasa: phadthai: I replied that "Rosetta Stone" is already taken by other software :P
2014-10-12T11:19:48Z wasamasa: asides from that, this annoying webcam bot (utesso) started bothering me once again
2014-10-12T11:19:51Z phadthai: ok, yes it's a popular name
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2014-10-12T11:33:17Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: did you see noclaf's comment on your !strip bug report?
2014-10-12T11:33:27Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: looks like you goofed up :P
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2014-10-12T11:41:38Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: looking
2014-10-12T11:42:05Z AeroNotix: btw -- getting more spam from talking in this channel
2014-10-12T11:42:26Z wasamasa: /query spam?
2014-10-12T11:42:31Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I don't strip anything
2014-10-12T11:42:39Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: it's genuinely the case, you can install yourself and take a look
2014-10-12T11:43:02Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: download the file from the PKGBUILD and it works, download and install through makepkg and it strips tonnes of stuff
2014-10-12T11:43:13Z wasamasa: also, what the hell: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/lispkit/
2014-10-12T11:43:32Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yupp, that's why I use lispkit-browser
2014-10-12T11:43:43Z AeroNotix: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/lispkit-browser/
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2014-10-12T11:44:24Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: `file lispkit` tells me it's stripped
2014-10-12T11:45:12Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: it's not intentionally stripped and running it through makepkg strips way more than is needed
2014-10-12T11:45:20Z wasamasa: "%PRIMITIVE HALT called; the party is over."
2014-10-12T11:45:28Z AeroNotix: it's so obvious if someone were to spend 5 seconds looking at the issue
2014-10-12T11:45:36Z AeroNotix: if you download the file from my server, it's like 100mb+
2014-10-12T11:45:43Z AeroNotix: if you install through makepkg, then it ends up like 200kb
2014-10-12T11:46:03Z AeroNotix: It's obviously something with makepkg, I've had other people report the same thing.
2014-10-12T11:46:19Z AeroNotix: I'm not a retard
2014-10-12T11:46:41Z wasamasa: well, I managed to install stumpwm with !strip successfully
2014-10-12T11:47:04Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: what's in /etc/makepkg.conf
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2014-10-12T11:48:42Z wasamasa: I've added "options=('!strip')" and it looks like it stops it from stripping
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2014-10-12T11:48:54Z wasamasa: must be my obscene luck
2014-10-12T11:48:56Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: where did you add that option?
2014-10-12T11:48:59Z AeroNotix: in the PKGBUILD?
2014-10-12T11:49:03Z wasamasa: yes, in the PKGBUILD
2014-10-12T11:49:05Z wasamasa: where else
2014-10-12T11:49:13Z AeroNotix: you can put that into /etc/makepkg.conf
2014-10-12T11:49:19Z wasamasa: I can, but why should I?
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2014-10-12T11:49:28Z AeroNotix: if I have the same in the PKGBUILD for lispkit, it still strips
2014-10-12T11:49:31Z wasamasa: it's an option that only makes sense to use on special occasions
2014-10-12T11:49:38Z AeroNotix: sure
2014-10-12T11:49:39Z AeroNotix: like this
2014-10-12T11:50:21Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/eIY/sh
2014-10-12T11:51:07Z wasamasa: http://ix.io/eIZ/sh
2014-10-12T11:51:50Z wasamasa: also, you forgot at least one dependency
2014-10-12T11:51:55Z AeroNotix: yeah?
2014-10-12T11:52:09Z wasamasa: because launching lispkit doesn't find webkit for me
2014-10-12T11:52:18Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: odd
2014-10-12T11:52:32Z wasamasa: that's not odd, you just didn't specify any dependencies, you silly person
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2014-10-12T11:53:02Z AeroNotix: oh that's right
2014-10-12T11:53:28Z AeroNotix: fixing
2014-10-12T11:53:52Z wasamasa: so, the right dependency should be webkitgtk from extra
2014-10-12T11:54:20Z AeroNotix: yeah
2014-10-12T11:54:32Z AeroNotix: wait, not webkitgtk2?
2014-10-12T11:55:21Z wasamasa: well, your software tells me it's looking for libwebkit2gtk-3.0.so
2014-10-12T11:55:37Z wasamasa: which `pkgfile libwebkit2gtk-3.0.so` identifies as being provided by webkitgtk
2014-10-12T11:55:51Z wasamasa: I'm more inclined to trust `pkgfile` than you :P
2014-10-12T11:56:00Z AeroNotix: Of course
2014-10-12T11:56:02Z AeroNotix: the snark isn't needed
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2014-10-12T11:57:09Z wasamasa: "debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread #<THREAD "cl-cffi-gtk main thread" RUNNING {10073438C3}>: non existent path: /home/xeno/dev/lispkit/main.ui"
2014-10-12T11:57:25Z wasamasa: :|
2014-10-12T11:57:38Z AeroNotix: which are you using?
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2014-10-12T11:57:49Z wasamasa: the aur one
2014-10-12T11:58:00Z AeroNotix: might need an update, that's been fixed for a while
2014-10-12T11:58:02Z wasamasa: and no, I don't happen to have a "xeno" login
2014-10-12T11:58:06Z AeroNotix: ofc
2014-10-12T11:58:08Z AeroNotix: That's me
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2014-10-12T11:58:40Z AeroNotix: I don't really have time to be working on lispkit at the moment unfortunately, it works for me.
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2014-10-12T11:58:52Z AeroNotix: this^ should be fixed afaicr
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2014-10-12T12:03:26Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: it loads the ui/template files from strings, so after it's saved the image they will be compiled it.
2014-10-12T12:03:32Z AeroNotix: I just need to update the AUR package.
2014-10-12T12:03:49Z AeroNotix: give me like 30 mins
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2014-10-12T12:03:55Z AeroNotix: still in bed, need breakfast
2014-10-12T12:04:07Z wasamasa: ok, I'll go and do the house duties in the meantime
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2014-10-12T13:02:07Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: just pushed some changes and uploaded a new package, let me know if that's better
2014-10-12T13:02:21Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: thanks
2014-10-12T13:04:48Z AeroNotix: also automated the deployment stuff so I don't forget to do it next time
2014-10-12T13:06:33Z wasamasa: yay, the build launches now
2014-10-12T13:06:40Z wasamasa: but I can't get any key to do anything
2014-10-12T13:06:48Z wasamasa: not even the famed C-x C-c
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2014-10-12T13:07:35Z wasamasa: clicking links manually works, so does tabbing through them and hitting RET
2014-10-12T13:07:56Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there's no C-x C-c binding ?
2014-10-12T13:08:33Z AeroNotix: https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit/blob/024756e0b8f11198b6d90d7fb8f33a9ca0459ff6/keys.lisp
2014-10-12T13:08:47Z wasamasa: M-x does something however
2014-10-12T13:08:49Z wasamasa: funny
2014-10-12T13:09:00Z AeroNotix: the built-in bindings are at the bottom of that file
2014-10-12T13:09:50Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: also, C-h m will open the manual
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2014-10-12T13:10:03Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: it would if I were you
2014-10-12T13:10:11Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: got an error because I'm not xeno :P
2014-10-12T13:10:12Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: you would if what?
2014-10-12T13:10:24Z AeroNotix: dang
2014-10-12T13:10:37Z AeroNotix: probably a template that's not compiled in
2014-10-12T13:10:45Z wasamasa: http://i.imgur.com/7jiehVB.png
2014-10-12T13:11:07Z wasamasa: at least that's a nice looking error page
2014-10-12T13:11:23Z AeroNotix: :)
2014-10-12T13:11:42Z AeroNotix: will play with the templates
2014-10-12T13:11:51Z wasamasa: also, I think instead of attempting to duplicate the horrors both debian and gentoo have done to allow one to install lisp applications
2014-10-12T13:12:51Z wasamasa: I will find or write something that launches things installed via quicklisp and offers compiling them and running the image instead for an extra boost with a lisp selector
2014-10-12T13:13:09Z AeroNotix: "for an extra boost with a lisp selector"
2014-10-12T13:13:13Z AeroNotix: what the hell does this even mean
2014-10-12T13:13:22Z wasamasa: the lisp selector is something else
2014-10-12T13:13:31Z wasamasa: something akin to rbenv
2014-10-12T13:13:38Z AeroNotix: define rbenv
2014-10-12T13:13:52Z wasamasa: it gives me a way to select the ruby version I'm interested in
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2014-10-12T13:14:06Z AeroNotix: The packaging is because Lispkit is just a program that happens to be written in CL
2014-10-12T13:14:07Z wasamasa: for CL that would be a way to change what lisp implementation you'd use to run things
2014-10-12T13:14:32Z wasamasa: I guess shelly allows me to do that
2014-10-12T13:14:37Z AeroNotix: If people want to compile/run it themselves, I'm sure they'll be smart enough to do that themselves.
2014-10-12T13:14:49Z AeroNotix: The packaging for arch at least will stay largely as is
2014-10-12T13:14:50Z wasamasa: I dunno, at the moment it's less convenient and introspectable than emacs
2014-10-12T13:15:05Z AeroNotix: How do you mean?
2014-10-12T13:15:27Z AeroNotix: with the arch package you should just be able to install from the AUR and run `lispkit` and it'll work (once the path bugs are shaken out)
2014-10-12T13:15:38Z wasamasa: emacs installs a binary that bootstraps the elisp interpreter, then loads files written in its own lisp dialect
2014-10-12T13:15:48Z wasamasa: and allows me to inspect these files to hack it as I work with it
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2014-10-12T13:16:16Z wasamasa: with stumpwm and now lispkit it feels different
2014-10-12T13:16:39Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: you can run your own lisp file as a config file, start a swank listener
2014-10-12T13:16:55Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: the thing with emacs is that the application *is* the interpreter
2014-10-12T13:17:00Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: that's the point,
2014-10-12T13:17:10Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: with stumpwm/lispkit it's *using* an interpreter
2014-10-12T13:17:14Z AeroNotix: do you see the difference?
2014-10-12T13:17:42Z AeroNotix: there's no reason you can't start a swank listener as part of your config file and connect to that via emacs and you would then have pretty much the same experience
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2014-10-12T13:18:02Z wasamasa: save the level of indirection
2014-10-12T13:18:15Z AeroNotix: and if you *do* want a more seamless experience, run it yourself from within SLIME from emacs.
2014-10-12T13:18:24Z AeroNotix: that's actually how I run lispkit most of the time when I'm hacking on it
2014-10-12T13:18:58Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: if you feel strongly about this I'm more than happy to review a PR or some code which improves things.
2014-10-12T13:19:08Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: no, it's just my general impressions
2014-10-12T13:19:36Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: so far I haven't written anything serious in CL
2014-10-12T13:19:54Z AeroNotix: Nothing to stop you though :)
2014-10-12T13:21:20Z wasamasa: I'm just torn between the "CL is the bestest language in the world" and the hoops one has to jump through to have something comparable to the emacs experience
2014-10-12T13:21:23Z wasamasa: that's all
2014-10-12T13:21:43Z mikaelj: comparable? why not use Emacs?
2014-10-12T13:21:54Z wasamasa: I do, I'm writing yet another package as I'm speaking
2014-10-12T13:22:39Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: it's not as simple as (ql:quickload :make-it-like-emacs)
2014-10-12T13:23:03Z AeroNotix: I wish it were. I certainly understand your frustrations, but application design is hard and user-interfaces are something a lot of open source applications struggle with.
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2014-10-12T13:23:20Z AeroNotix: Emacs got a lot of stuff right, and it's hard to instantly understand which discreet components are needed to replicate that.
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2014-10-12T13:23:49Z AeroNotix: I certainly appreciate the feedback.
2014-10-12T13:23:50Z wasamasa: and considering having a browser in emacs is something I'll probably won't see happening, I'm of course interested in lispkit, otherwise I wouldn't bother installing it repeatedly and providing feedback on it
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2014-10-12T13:23:58Z AeroNotix: definitely
2014-10-12T13:24:11Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: raise a ticket on github
2014-10-12T13:24:25Z AeroNotix: we can explore more concretely what you think is missing
2014-10-12T13:24:28Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: about the template/hardcoded paths thing?
2014-10-12T13:24:39Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: no, I'm aware of that and currently am fixing it
2014-10-12T13:25:21Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: the thing I'd only file in a ticket once I exactly know how lispkit hacking goes, how to use swank to debug running programs, ...
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2014-10-12T13:25:32Z wasamasa: s/the thing/the thing is/
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2014-10-12T13:25:53Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there's a difference between how one would hack on lispkit itself and how one would hack on their lispkit config
2014-10-12T13:26:01Z AeroNotix: at least in the way my workflow is
2014-10-12T13:26:31Z AeroNotix: you can do everything when you start it all inside SLIME easily, but then it's a inferior-process in Emacs.
2014-10-12T13:26:36Z AeroNotix: which may-or-may-not-be ideal
2014-10-12T13:29:17Z wasamasa: hmm, I wonder whether providing something like M-: or IELM or a tiny editor with paredit bindings and eval-* commands would be enough
2014-10-12T13:29:43Z wasamasa: I've seen the latter for cl-notebook
2014-10-12T13:30:00Z wasamasa: it leverages existing JS code, so it should be fine for doing in-browser editing of your configuration
2014-10-12T13:30:30Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: there's a binding that lets you eval parenscript, adding something for evaling CL code is trivial
2014-10-12T13:30:44Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: send a PR! Could be a good way to get your feet wet
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2014-10-12T13:31:09Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: I already told you my knowledge of CL is minimal (or rather, comes from cl-lib in emacs)
2014-10-12T13:31:16Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: I doubt that's the case
2014-10-12T13:31:33Z AeroNotix: people often undervalue themselves.
2014-10-12T13:31:40Z AeroNotix: I'm inclined to ignore stuff like that
2014-10-12T13:31:54Z AeroNotix: source: has to motivate 10+ junior devs at $DAYJOB
2014-10-12T13:32:12Z wasamasa: I don't even have swank installed
2014-10-12T13:32:20Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: M-x package-install :)
2014-10-12T13:32:27Z AeroNotix: or the relevant ql stuff
2014-10-12T13:32:40Z wasamasa: I was refering to the quicklisp part, yes
2014-10-12T13:32:57Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: oh so, I don't have bindings for the eval functions, but you can M-x them
2014-10-12T13:33:05Z AeroNotix: eval-in-page-cl, eval-in-page-js
2014-10-12T13:33:26Z AeroNotix: I should probably add commands not bound to the help page.
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2014-10-12T13:35:38Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: interesting idea: M-x repl to open a different page which has a permanent textentry
2014-10-12T13:35:51Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: it would just be a different buffer
2014-10-12T13:35:55Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: yeah
2014-10-12T13:36:15Z AeroNotix: raise a ticket
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2014-10-12T13:43:31Z wasamasa: https://github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit/issues/36
2014-10-12T13:44:53Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: appreciated!
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2014-10-12T13:45:39Z wasamasa: using that strategy should avoid turning lispkit into a full text editor :P
2014-10-12T13:45:43Z AeroNotix: haha
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2014-10-12T13:50:29Z wasamasa: AeroNotix: want me to find more stuff here or to walk over to #lispkit instead?
2014-10-12T13:51:06Z AeroNotix: wasamasa: #lispkit might annoy less people here
2014-10-12T13:51:17Z wasamasa: k then
2014-10-12T13:53:17Z Grue`: is it possible to access the page's DOM from Lisp with Lispkit?
2014-10-12T13:53:24Z AeroNotix: Grue`: technically
2014-10-12T13:53:36Z AeroNotix: Grue`: you can evaluate parenscript in the context of the page
2014-10-12T13:53:47Z AeroNotix: but it won't, for example, load parenscript files that the page wants to load.
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2014-10-12T14:25:05Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-10-12T14:28:47Z moore33: howdy
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2014-10-12T14:38:07Z beach: Hey nyef!
2014-10-12T14:38:08Z beach: Hey moore33!
2014-10-12T14:38:56Z wizzo: if i am reading a file as a stream of bytes, is there any way i can look ahead to a certain offset/location in the file?
2014-10-12T14:39:05Z nyef: clhs file-position
2014-10-12T14:39:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm
2014-10-12T14:39:07Z beach: nyef: I am slowly updating the project page and moving it to my private site: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html.
2014-10-12T14:39:24Z wizzo: perfect. thanks!
2014-10-12T14:39:59Z nyef: beach: Nice. I can't quite decide if a full LispOS is a reasonable thing to attempt at this point, or if it would be better to focus on a better userland.
2014-10-12T14:40:31Z beach: nyef: That's why I am suggesting the top-down approach.  Then you can choose later.
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2014-10-12T14:41:20Z nyef: I am also still thoroughly unconvinced about having a single address space.
2014-10-12T14:41:32Z beach: I see.
2014-10-12T14:41:36Z nyef: At the very least, you need multiple address spaces for virtualization, of course.
2014-10-12T14:41:37Z drmeister: There's been some discussion about running Clasp on bare metal on my blog - hang on.
2014-10-12T14:42:08Z beach: nyef: You also need multiple address spaces for running foreign code.
2014-10-12T14:42:33Z nyef: Depends on the code, but yes.
2014-10-12T14:42:52Z drmeister: http://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/things-you-can-do-with-clasp-1/
2014-10-12T14:43:01Z drmeister: It's in the user comments at the bottom.
2014-10-12T14:45:25Z mikaelj: just need some glue. does it run on ARM systems at the moment?
2014-10-12T14:45:35Z beach: nyef: But such code would have the usual problems interacting with the rest of the system, i.e., no direct pointers possible, so it would have something like Unix file descriptors.
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2014-10-12T14:46:03Z nyef: mikaelj: You thinking the RPi or similar?
2014-10-12T14:46:41Z mikaelj: nyef, something simpler, like the Cortex M-series. It's trivial to run your code directly on metal on those.
2014-10-12T14:47:21Z nyef: I'm thinking easy hardware availability more than anything else here.
2014-10-12T14:47:23Z mikaelj: nyef, and the FreeRTOS port is also quite easy to unedrstand and modify should it be needed.
2014-10-12T14:47:25Z moore33: beach: Why do you need multiple address spaces for foreign code? Assuming  something "modern" like shared libraries.
2014-10-12T14:48:32Z mikaelj: nyef, it's easy to get hardware, the STM32 boards are everywhere. Then, I'm just thinking about the startup which is lot easier on the Cortex M-series than the RPi, from what I've understand.
2014-10-12T14:48:43Z beach: moore33: For security reasons.  Foreign code written in C or assembler must not be allowed to access the rest of the system.  I suppose you could do without a separate address space if you used page protection and such.
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2014-10-12T14:49:01Z nyef: That's fair, I guess.
2014-10-12T14:49:13Z mikaelj: nyef, and also, it's what I hack on for a living. :-)
2014-10-12T14:49:23Z moore33: ok
2014-10-12T14:49:42Z jackdaniel: beach: x11 server should be replaced by wayland server i think, since the former will become deprecated soon
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2014-10-12T14:49:51Z mikaelj: jackdaniel, ...or mir?
2014-10-12T14:49:59Z nell: jackdaniel are you that white beard guy?
2014-10-12T14:50:07Z moore33: Or whatever the flavor of the day is :)
2014-10-12T14:50:21Z beach: jackdaniel: I'll change the entry when that happens.
2014-10-12T14:50:26Z jackdaniel: nell: nah, i dont even know who you're talking about
2014-10-12T14:50:47Z nell: jackdaniel http://www.tenable.com/profile/jack-daniel
2014-10-12T14:50:56Z nell: im talking about a badass
2014-10-12T14:50:58Z beach: jackdaniel: Part of the reason I favor the render extensions is so that the code can be turned into a compositing server.
2014-10-12T14:53:11Z jackdaniel: mikaelj: mir is ubuntu thing, i would harly call it a standard
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2014-10-12T14:54:51Z beach: I collected various examples of parsing code from around my computer and gathered it up in a GIT repository.  There might be more code lying around, and if so I will add it to the repository:  https://github.com/robert-strandh/Nomenclatura
2014-10-12T14:56:06Z beach: I should have some LALR stuff lying around, but I haven't looked too closely yet.
2014-10-12T14:57:04Z beach: The idea is to propose a library of parser generators and lexer generators using different techniques, so that the user can choose the one that is adapted to his/her problem.
2014-10-12T14:57:09Z ynniv: beach: If you’re thinking about security, are you also thinking about a process model? Most of the lisp-machine-like ideas seem to have a single object space.
2014-10-12T14:57:56Z beach: ynniv: The system I am proposing has a single address space and no processes.
2014-10-12T14:58:43Z beach: ynniv: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2014-10-12T15:00:15Z ynniv: I’ve read that sandboxing CL is difficult. The capabilities security research is all done in scheme.
2014-10-12T15:02:03Z beach: In the proposal, I use capabilities to solve the problem of protection.
2014-10-12T15:02:28Z beach: chapter 3.
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2014-10-12T15:15:27Z nyef: beach: In chapter 2, the table entry for source control, "darks" should probably be "darcs".
2014-10-12T15:16:10Z beach: Thanks!
2014-10-12T15:17:10Z drmeister: beach: How is Cleavir coming?
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2014-10-12T15:19:39Z beach: nyef: Fixed!
2014-10-12T15:19:45Z drmeister: beach: On my end I've been filling in the outstanding Common Lisp components/symbols that were not defined in Clasp.
2014-10-12T15:20:08Z nyef: drmeister: Have you managed to define specialized array types yet?
2014-10-12T15:20:13Z beach: drmeister: Fine.  I am working on the AST-to-MIR translator and the MIR interpreter simultaneously in order to test things.
2014-10-12T15:20:26Z drmeister: This is what is still missing from Clasp:
2014-10-12T15:20:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/PKR0vlzY
2014-10-12T15:22:10Z drmeister: nyef: No, I haven't implemented those yet but I realized that it should be very easy now that I have a garbage collector aware resizable vector.
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2014-10-12T15:23:09Z nyef: beach: Chapter 6, paragraph 1, "litterature"?
2014-10-12T15:23:16Z beach: Hmm.
2014-10-12T15:23:29Z nyef: Shouldn't it be "literature"?
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2014-10-12T15:23:37Z beach: Yes.  My spell checker must have been off.
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2014-10-12T15:24:54Z nyef: Paragraph 3, there's an extra comma after "including".
2014-10-12T15:26:18Z beach: Fixed.  Thanks!
2014-10-12T15:26:18Z drmeister: beach: Excellent - thanks - as far as I can tell, the plan is still on track.
2014-10-12T15:26:29Z beach: drmeister: Very much so.
2014-10-12T15:27:12Z drmeister: Ok, I better head out.  Talk to you later.
2014-10-12T15:27:14Z nyef: Thread-local heaps sounds like they're just asking for trouble if references escape to the global heap or to another thread.
2014-10-12T15:27:37Z beach: They don't.
2014-10-12T15:27:44Z ynniv: beach: The risk of dropping into IRC is having basically no context at all. I didn’t realize that you were writing SICL for this. That solves a bunch of problems by doing security out of band.
2014-10-12T15:28:03Z nyef: They don't ask for trouble, or they don't escape?
2014-10-12T15:28:05Z beach: nyef: A write barrier automatically promotes object from the thread-local heap to the global heap.
2014-10-12T15:28:11Z beach: They don't escape.
2014-10-12T15:28:17Z _tca: nyef: its very simple to know you need to copy when sending out
2014-10-12T15:28:25Z nyef: Hrm, okay...
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2014-10-12T15:28:44Z nyef: Not that write barriers tend to be particularly cheap, but it's a workable approach.
2014-10-12T15:29:00Z beach: nyef: I haven't tested that design yet.  But it has been on my mind for a few years, ever since Doliguez et al wrote their GC paper.
2014-10-12T15:29:20Z beach: nyef: I can't see how to design a concurrent GC without write barriers.
2014-10-12T15:29:53Z beach: ynniv: Oh, you mean, by not taking an existing Common Lisp implementation?  Yes, sure.
2014-10-12T15:29:54Z nyef: That's fair.
2014-10-12T15:31:06Z beach: nyef: I might be able to do it with page protection.  Write-protect the global heap in every thread.
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2014-10-12T15:31:10Z ynniv: Yeah, it’s difficult (perhaps impossible?) to secure portable Common Lisp.
2014-10-12T15:32:16Z nyef: You've also got this checkpointing mechanism which uses page-level protection. It could be interesting to see how it interacts with the GC.
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2014-10-12T15:32:45Z beach: nyef: Yes.  I have no idea.  I am not smart enough to think about everything up front.
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2014-10-12T15:34:00Z beach: ynniv: I am even having a hard time understanding small portions of a system such as SBCL.
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2014-10-12T15:34:35Z beach: I tried the other day to figure out how to write the methods required by the Cleavir environment protocol specialized to SBCL.  But I had to give up.
2014-10-12T15:34:51Z ynniv: yes, lisp security research also tends to use small implementations like scheme48
2014-10-12T15:35:07Z nyef: There's definitely a "flip" process in the checkpointer similar to flipping the GC heap.
2014-10-12T15:35:17Z ynniv: (the “scheme capable of being designed in 48 hours")
2014-10-12T15:35:23Z beach: nyef: Yes, definitely.
2014-10-12T15:36:00Z nyef: Ugh. Stop-the-world flip, no less.
2014-10-12T15:36:02Z beach: ynniv: I don't think my suggested system will be any larger than (say) Multics.
2014-10-12T15:36:42Z beach: nyef: Maybe so.  I forget.  Again, it has to be tested.
2014-10-12T15:37:14Z beach: The entire crash-proof concept can be avoided with a battery.
2014-10-12T15:37:27Z nyef: Hah!
2014-10-12T15:37:47Z beach: But pjb insisted that I put it in.  So I did some research and found an improvement to what EROS does.
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2014-10-12T15:38:12Z beach: It might be publishable.  Who knows?
2014-10-12T15:38:18Z nyef: So, there are some scenarios where a battery is not available, and some where a battery does not help.
2014-10-12T15:38:27Z p_l: beach: batteries fail in hilarious ways
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2014-10-12T15:38:52Z ynniv: beach: are you aware of http://www.crash-safe.org/papers.html?
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2014-10-12T15:39:11Z nyef: The old "let's just shut down power to the video system" trick is one I run into often enough, for example.
2014-10-12T15:39:19Z nyef: Can't recover from that without a clean reboot.
2014-10-12T15:39:28Z beach: ynniv: First time I see it.  Thanks.
2014-10-12T15:39:41Z p_l once utterly crashed PMU leading to any and all power to be lost, and unrecoverable battery loss
2014-10-12T15:40:05Z beach: nyef:  I don't know of a scenario where a battery doesn't help.
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2014-10-12T15:41:27Z beach: I have not seen a coherent discussion about what problems crash-proof systems solve, other than power failure.
2014-10-12T15:41:33Z beach: Hence the battery idea.
2014-10-12T15:43:09Z beach: OK, I need to go prepare dinner.  I might be back later.
2014-10-12T15:43:23Z nyef: Hardware failure of non-disk parts of the system.
2014-10-12T15:44:04Z nyef: To cover the disks as well, you'd need a RAID system or similar.
2014-10-12T15:44:39Z ynniv: beach: http://www.crash-safe.org/docs/SAFEPrelimDesign-PLOS2011.html should look familiar, but as with any defense project it’s future is unpredictable
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2014-10-12T16:19:50Z nyef: beach: If you're going to be using a "trusted compiler", have you been putting any effort into making it a "verified compiler"?
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2014-10-12T16:22:29Z InvalidCo: does anybody here use CLX?
2014-10-12T16:22:42Z InvalidCo: I just wrote support for the Xdbe extension
2014-10-12T16:22:53Z InvalidCo: (it's the doublebuffer functionality)
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2014-10-12T16:23:15Z InvalidCo: if there's anybody here who actually writes stuff for CLX, I'd like their comments
2014-10-12T16:23:26Z InvalidCo: https://github.com/InvalidCo/clx
2014-10-12T16:23:45Z nyef: Ah, someone else who got sucked into the CLX mess.
2014-10-12T16:24:05Z InvalidCo: there's still some unimplemented stuff but the functionality most people want is there
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2014-10-12T17:32:55Z p_l: InvalidCo: ... does Xdbe work on X.Org at all?
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2014-10-12T17:34:27Z InvalidCo: p_l: ...I think so?
2014-10-12T17:34:56Z InvalidCo: at least my custom toolkit stopped flickering once I started using this extension
2014-10-12T17:35:04Z InvalidCo: hold on, let me check the vendor of my X server
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2014-10-12T17:35:35Z InvalidCo: yup, "The X.Org Foundation"
2014-10-12T17:35:48Z InvalidCo: Xdbe is included in the libXext
2014-10-12T17:37:26Z nyef: Custom toolkit?
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2014-10-12T17:49:19Z beach: ynniv: Thanks.  I'll keep the reference for later.
2014-10-12T17:49:48Z beach: nyef: I haven't thought about formal verification of the compiler.
2014-10-12T17:53:34Z nyef: I'm somewhat thinking that using ACL2 to build a verified compiler for CL would be thematically appropriate.
2014-10-12T17:53:57Z nyef: I'm also thinking that it'd be an ambitious project.
2014-10-12T17:54:10Z beach: Certainly.  But it seems overwhelmingly difficult to me.
2014-10-12T17:54:12Z nyef: The other angle is to have a verified runtime.
2014-10-12T17:55:03Z nyef: It might be, but if you're relying on a trusted compiler then there has to be some way to know that the compiler is trustworthy.
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2014-10-12T17:56:01Z beach: "trusted compiler" is only a term.  We currently trust the Linux kernel even though it has not been formally verified.
2014-10-12T17:58:09Z hardenedapple: Hello, I'm having trouble with a play script I've made to connect to IRC with CL - minimum problem example here http://paste.lisp.org/+334B - most times when I connect, I only get part of the MOTD, but if I write something on stdin I get the rest
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2014-10-12T17:59:34Z hardenedapple: trace shows the hang is in the call to select, but I can't see anything wrong there
2014-10-12T18:00:08Z nyef: Wow. Umm... You know that using SB-UNIX is officially unsupported, right?
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2014-10-12T18:01:07Z hardenedapple: nyef: yeah i know, I have another version that uses add-handler, but trace doesn't show what's happening there
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2014-10-12T18:01:25Z nyef: Oh, and using SERVE-EVENT is a recipe for pain.
2014-10-12T18:02:07Z hardenedapple: Plus, it's just a play to learn CL - so I give myself liberties  --- Any alternate suggestions are welcome
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2014-10-12T18:03:45Z hardenedapple: by alternate suggestions, I meant suggestions of alternate methods
2014-10-12T18:04:05Z nyef: Using iolib might be an option, but I've never tried it.
2014-10-12T18:04:58Z hardenedapple: I'll have a look, but for my sanity I'll have to figure out why this isn't working first
2014-10-12T18:05:04Z nyef: There's also SB-POSIX.
2014-10-12T18:05:44Z InvalidCo: nyef: I wanted to try a widget set with some more liberty for run-time modification
2014-10-12T18:05:58Z hardenedapple: nyef: sb-posix didn't seem to have any way of calling select
2014-10-12T18:06:02Z InvalidCo: basically html+css+js minus the html and the js
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2014-10-12T18:06:06Z InvalidCo: and css, for the most part
2014-10-12T18:06:52Z InvalidCo: the selector specificity algorithm is the one w3c-compliant css has
2014-10-12T18:07:38Z InvalidCo: which is a bit odd one but it works so far
2014-10-12T18:08:28Z nyef: hardenedapple: Okay, so you're calling select(2) with a NULL timeout and a single (read) fd set with two fds set?
2014-10-12T18:08:37Z nyef: And it blocks?
2014-10-12T18:09:30Z hardenedapple: nyef: yeah, it's supposed to block if there's no data, but it also blocks part way through the MOTD
2014-10-12T18:10:25Z hardenedapple: and once I've joined a channel it never seems to block with the messages from there
2014-10-12T18:10:33Z nyef: Oh! You're using fds directly with select(), but you're also using stream functions to get data, which dumps into serve-event.
2014-10-12T18:10:52Z nyef: And the streams buffer.
2014-10-12T18:11:21Z nyef: So you've got a pile of buffered input on the IRC stream that isn't reflected in the select(2) call because it's already been read into the buffer.
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2014-10-12T18:11:57Z hardenedapple: OK - that makes sense
2014-10-12T18:12:52Z hardenedapple: So I'm basically checking the socket for data, but the data has already been passed from the socket to the stream
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2014-10-12T18:13:47Z nyef: Yeah, so you need to loop on the stream with LISTEN until it has no more data, THEN go back to the main loop, except that you then can get tied up waiting for more data if your input doesn't finish with a line terminator...
2014-10-12T18:15:00Z nyef: Your next angle is to use read-char instead of read-line and accumulate the strings yourself.
2014-10-12T18:15:10Z hardenedapple: nyef: That shouldn't be a problem - in my actual code I have accounts for things like that already - I think I just have to change a line or two
2014-10-12T18:15:27Z hardenedapple: nyef: I had to swap to read-byte to use cl+ssl streams
2014-10-12T18:15:39Z nyef: There you go.
2014-10-12T18:15:57Z nyef: So, problem figured out?
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2014-10-12T18:17:08Z hardenedapple: nyef: not yet checked, but probably - I'll update you when I'm confident
2014-10-12T18:17:32Z nyef: Okay then. Good luck. (-:
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2014-10-12T18:18:59Z hardenedapple: Thanks
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2014-10-12T18:27:25Z hardenedapple: nyef: That's it -- thanks
2014-10-12T18:27:40Z nyef: You're welcome.
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2014-10-12T18:37:59Z drewc: (good (get-universal-time) |*#lisp'ers*|)
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2014-10-12T18:41:15Z flip214: drewc: what do you mean, (good 1413139261315)?
2014-10-12T18:41:19Z flip214: ;)
2014-10-12T18:42:16Z drewc: flip214: no, my function had two arguments, and one was a special variable.
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2014-10-12T18:46:05Z drewc would also like to mention the fact that he lives in the present
2014-10-12T18:48:09Z drewc: flip214: (local-time:universal-to-timestamp 1413139261315) => @46680-08-07T03:41:55.000000-08:00 ... So no, not all at what I meant... learn to code! :D
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2014-10-12T19:22:10Z t4nk088: hi all
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2014-10-12T21:08:24Z slyrus: drmeister: is there a good C++ based 3-d structure viewer one could use with clasp as a pymol replacement?
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2014-10-12T21:20:50Z nyef: slyrus: ... Dare I suggest building something using CLX and OpenGL instead? Texture mapping with the CLX OpenGL is IIRC in horrible shape, but some of the other bits should be workable.
2014-10-12T21:21:11Z moore33: Not that horrible
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2014-10-12T21:21:39Z nyef: Really? Someone else did some work on it after I moved on?
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2014-10-12T21:24:48Z moore33: nyef: I'm not totally sure what you mean... Oh, wait a sec. Do not use CLX and the GLX-based stuff on top of it. Use cl-opengl and glop.
2014-10-12T21:26:31Z nyef: Right, that should get you something that mostly-to-completely works, and isn't limited to OpenGL 1.3, shouldn't it?
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2014-10-12T21:27:59Z moore33: I believe cl-opengl supports OpenGL 4.5. Your card might not.
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2014-10-12T21:32:46Z nyef: Right, and the GLX wire protocol is limited to OpenGL 1.3, and after that you need to use the hook to get a client-side context to do native rendering... Which does us basically no good.
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2014-10-12T21:34:09Z moore33: nyef: Hmm, I thought that GLX had been extended to support later versions... but anyway, client-side (direct rendering) is where it's at :)
2014-10-12T21:35:36Z nyef: From what I found when digging into GLX stuff a few years ago, everything after 1.3 is based on direct rendering.
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2014-10-12T21:38:22Z moore33: nyef: GLX has its own version numbering, which is at 1.4. But I think for each new OpenGL version, a bunch of new tokens and and messages are added to the GLX wire protocol.
2014-10-12T21:38:31Z moore33: Let me see if I can confirm that.
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2014-10-12T21:39:33Z nyef: I don't know that I'll ever go back to trying to improve the GLX support in CLX, but...
2014-10-12T21:39:42Z nyef: Might have been 1.4 that I was thinking of rather than 1.3
2014-10-12T21:39:57Z nyef: Whichever it was, it was well before shaders came along.
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2014-10-12T21:42:58Z moore33: nyef: Did you say that you can't (or couldn't) use direct rendering?
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2014-10-12T21:45:19Z nyef: The problem is that all of the direct rendering stuff is system and hardware dependent.
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2014-10-12T21:45:44Z nyef: And a goodly amount of it is simply undocumented.
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2014-10-12T21:47:33Z moore33: I guess it depends on what you are trying to do. OpenGL implementations are generally pretty good at supporting the version that they claim to support, although everyone has bugs and there are some horror stories out there.
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2014-10-12T22:08:15Z drmeister: slyrus: It's on my list of things to do.   I've written several 3D structure viewers in my time.  I developed the graphical front end to AMBER called xLEaP.  None were as sophisticated as Pymol mind you but it's more because I couldn't be bothered to put that much work into the crappy development tools that were available up until now.
2014-10-12T22:09:13Z drmeister: Personally, I use Chimera although it's Python/TCL/Tk interface is slow and even the developers admit it's dated.
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2014-10-12T22:10:18Z drmeister: Related to that - how do people feel about a wxWidgets interface to Common Lisp rather than Qt?
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2014-10-12T22:11:00Z drmeister: I'm a lot more familiar with wxWidgets and I had it exposed in the initial interpreted version of Clasp 3-4 years ago.
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2014-10-12T22:36:56Z AeroNotix: drmeister: wx sucks and needs to die
2014-10-12T22:37:00Z AeroNotix: that's how I feel
2014-10-12T22:37:19Z AeroNotix: Qt at least tries to be consistent and has a pretty decent API that works for a lot of use-cases.
2014-10-12T22:37:26Z AeroNotix: and the tooling around Qt is second-to-none
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2014-10-12T22:46:51Z drmeister: Ok,   wxWidgets is now dead to me.
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2014-10-12T23:09:09Z dim: the software I know using wx is PgAdmin, and they are rewriting it from scratch again, one of the reasons being wx getting too much in the way
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2014-10-12T23:09:28Z dim: like, after a decade of maintaince, preventing code improvements etc, apparently
2014-10-12T23:10:07Z dim: maybe they failed at separation of concerns, too, but my quick reading in GUI lands hinted me that CLIM is a good offer for that
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2014-10-12T23:20:34Z nyef: CLIM? Separation of concerns? Something doesn't seem quite right about that...
2014-10-12T23:20:52Z nyef: Of course, that could be my inexperience in actually using CLIM speaking, there.
2014-10-12T23:24:19Z dim: well if I'm doing any UI work these days, it's in the browser, and HTML/CSS/JS are not precisely about separation of concern
2014-10-12T23:24:28Z dim: it's more about action-at-a-distance
2014-10-12T23:24:35Z nyef: Spooky, or otherwise?
2014-10-12T23:24:58Z dim: how do you mean ?
2014-10-12T23:25:37Z nyef: Sorry, "spooky action at a distance" was, IIRC, a criticism leveled at some of the consequences of quantum mechanics.
2014-10-12T23:25:57Z dim: oh, ok ;-)
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