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2014-10-09T00:30:55Z Xach: drmeister: any luck on deflate?
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2014-10-09T00:45:09Z drmeister: Xach: Clasp doesn't yet have optimized arrays and building deflate fails when it tries to create an array of type (unsigned 32) (or something like that).
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2014-10-09T00:46:29Z drmeister: I have a long list of "things to do".  I plan to set up a template Array class in C++ that will accept any C++ class/struct and create compact arrays.  The only array/vector class Clasp supports at the moment is arrays of boxed objects.
2014-10-09T00:47:10Z Bike: eh? you can't even make-array with a type specified?
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2014-10-09T00:49:17Z drmeister: I could - I just don't.   Should it default to an array of boxed objects if it doesn't have an optimized array for the type requested?
2014-10-09T00:49:29Z drmeister: I suppose it should.
2014-10-09T00:49:34Z Bike: yes. that shouldn't be an error.
2014-10-09T00:50:13Z Bike: You have make-array's :element-type argument default to t, and the code makes an array of type (upgraded-array-element-type element-type).
2014-10-09T00:50:13Z nyef: clhs u-a-e-t
2014-10-09T00:50:14Z specbot: upgraded-array-element-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2014-10-09T00:50:15Z drmeister: Well, I wrote it when I wasn't really sure what it should do.  It works if you ask for an array of T.
2014-10-09T00:50:24Z Bike: which can always be t, except for when it can't
2014-10-09T00:51:08Z nyef: Right, there's a set of specializations required by the standard, which includes CHARACTER (for strings), BIT, and NIL (also a string).
2014-10-09T00:53:45Z drmeister: So here's the thing.   I incorporated ECL Common Lisp source code.  It has a pretty substantial UPGRADED-ARRAY-ELEMENT-TYPE that is compatible with the underlying ECL C code.  I come along and appropriate the ECL Common Lisp code but I'm writing my own C++ underlying layer.  My underlying layer doesn't yet fully support what the ECL Common Lisp source code
2014-10-09T00:53:45Z drmeister: expects.
2014-10-09T00:55:16Z drmeister: So it's a bug in Clasp - I have plans to fix it but to do so properly would mean implementing something that approximates the ECL underlying C functionality.   I have a better idea.  I'll add a C++ template class that lets me match the underlying ECL functionality using template programming and add support for creating compact arrays of any C++ class/struct.
2014-10-09T00:55:34Z Bike: (defun upgraded-array-element-type (spec &optional env) (declare (ignore env)) (cond ((subtypep spec 'base-char) 'base-char) ((subtypep spec 'character) 'character) ((subtypep spec 'bit) 'bit) (t t))
2014-10-09T00:55:45Z Bike: nil is so ridiculous for that
2014-10-09T00:55:50Z drmeister: So I have a plan - but what I need is time.
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2014-10-09T00:56:22Z Bike: i guess ((subtypep spec nil) nil)? what fun, all around
2014-10-09T00:57:54Z Bike: anyway, point is a minimal implementation can just track a few types for obscure purposes and that'll make it conforming.
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2014-10-09T01:00:02Z drmeister: Bike: Where those last few comments addressed to me?  If so, I don't follow.
2014-10-09T01:00:28Z Bike: i mean, you can make your lisp conforming before you do all that C++ stuff with a small change to your existing boxed arrays.
2014-10-09T01:02:11Z stacksmith: Hey guys.  To create an array with dimensions that are not static... Is (make-array (list w h)) the way to do that?
2014-10-09T01:02:20Z Bike: yup
2014-10-09T01:02:34Z stacksmith: Thx
2014-10-09T01:03:03Z drmeister: This is the current ECL upgraded-array-element-type:
2014-10-09T01:03:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XbK9tAlM
2014-10-09T01:04:25Z drmeister: I could feature this out with #+ecl but currently Clasp has the :ECL *feature* turned on because Clasp tries to mimic ECL exactly.
2014-10-09T01:04:41Z drmeister: This came up already today in another topic.
2014-10-09T01:05:03Z drmeister: I should remove the :ECL feature and switch to the :CLASP feature.
2014-10-09T01:05:29Z drmeister: Then I could feature out the ECL upgraded-array-element type with #+ecl (defun upgraded-array-element-type ...)
2014-10-09T01:05:48Z Bike: probably.
2014-10-09T01:05:53Z drmeister: and add something like what you provide above with #+clasp (defun upgraded-array-element-type ...)
2014-10-09T01:06:34Z drmeister: I've been meaning to go through all of the ECL/Clasp Common Lisp source code and convert #+ecl   to #+(or ecl clasp)
2014-10-09T01:08:31Z Bike: uh, what's lispBackup for in the source tree?
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2014-10-09T01:08:47Z drmeister: In my source tree?
2014-10-09T01:08:52Z drmeister: Clasp's source tree?
2014-10-09T01:08:56Z Bike: yes.
2014-10-09T01:09:08Z Bike: also, where's make-array-objects defined.
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2014-10-09T01:10:52Z drmeister: Oh, uh hang on.  Its unused code.  The place where the real lisp code is clasp/src/lisp/kernel/(lsp|cmp|clos)
2014-10-09T01:11:37Z drmeister: Clasp is at the same time, my greatest software achievement and my greatest shame.
2014-10-09T01:13:20Z drmeister: Did I mention that I got ASDF to work and load and run alexandria?
2014-10-09T01:16:57Z drewc: drmeister:  if you did I was not watching and did not scroll back to it, so : yay! congrads! :)
2014-10-09T01:18:06Z drmeister runs around in a circle and wags his tail.
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2014-10-09T01:20:39Z drmeister: drewc: Thank you very much.  Writing parsers is currently high on my list of things to do.
2014-10-09T01:22:23Z drewc: drmeister: well, any help I can give in that regard I will. Do not be afraid to ask, and here's hoping i will answer.
2014-10-09T01:22:28Z drmeister: That; move my 10 person group and all of their chemicals and equipment one block to a new science building; get out an NCI proposal on developing mimics of snake-venom disintegrins; get a paper out and keep Clasp moving forward.  Hi ho.
2014-10-09T01:22:51Z drmeister: Here's hoping I'll have time to ask.
2014-10-09T01:23:06Z drewc nods
2014-10-09T01:23:09Z drmeister: I appreciate that very much - thanks.
2014-10-09T01:24:37Z drmeister: I've got 99 troubles and I need specialized type arrays to store them in.
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2014-10-09T02:10:29Z stacksmith: Is calling eval inside a macro a reasonable way to reduce a very large, nested s-expr?
2014-10-09T02:10:45Z Bike: no.
2014-10-09T02:11:01Z Bike: it's very rare that using eval is a good idea. what are you doing?
2014-10-09T02:11:51Z stacksmith: I have a large s-expr that I would like to parse.  It is almost lisp, so I thought I would define some macros.
2014-10-09T02:12:45Z Bike: eval should certainly not be used for parsing, they tried that with json for a second and hey, security gone
2014-10-09T02:13:27Z stacksmith: Outside of security issues...
2014-10-09T02:13:29Z oGMo: err
2014-10-09T02:13:31Z oGMo: heh
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2014-10-09T02:13:56Z oGMo: stacksmith: if you mean "parse" by "take string, output sexp", then you probably want read-from-string or whatever
2014-10-09T02:14:06Z nyef: There are times when EVAL is the least unreasonable solution, but the only time when it is a REASONABLE solution is when you're writing a REPL.
2014-10-09T02:14:08Z oGMo: not secure though :p
2014-10-09T02:15:09Z stacksmith: No, I have a sexp.  I want to transform it.  Defuns almost work, but some values should be symbols, so I wrote a simple macro to quote them.  Now I am screwed as nested macros interact weirdly...
2014-10-09T02:15:58Z stacksmith: I used &rest, but it wound up with a double set of parens.  So I figured the macro should eval rest...
2014-10-09T02:16:34Z nyef: Clearly, something is wrong, either in your entire approach, or your understanding of the details.
2014-10-09T02:16:43Z nyef: Possibly both.
2014-10-09T02:16:44Z oGMo: yes
2014-10-09T02:16:53Z stacksmith: Both.
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2014-10-09T02:17:07Z oGMo: what are you trying to do?
2014-10-09T02:17:09Z stacksmith: I'll make a paste in a sec.
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2014-10-09T02:19:41Z White_Flame predicts that the problem can be solved by returning the wrapped sexpr from the macro
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2014-10-09T02:30:45Z stacksmith: Friends, here is a paste.  http://paste.lisp.org/+333F  This is my first go at macros, so please forgive my ignorance...
2014-10-09T02:32:46Z stacksmith: The file I am loading is in the megabytes, so perhaps parsing it line by line is wiser.  But it's just so close that it's tempting to just load it.
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2014-10-09T02:33:06Z Bike: i really wouldn't do that. eval is for code.
2014-10-09T02:33:19Z stacksmith: Well, it is code.
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2014-10-09T02:35:00Z White_Flame: (defmacro aaa (param &body body) `(progn (raw-aaa ',param) ,@body))
2014-10-09T02:35:11Z White_Flame: but I don't know what the actual usage of AAA is
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2014-10-09T02:36:25Z White_Flame: and of course, what I do doesn't scope bbb inside aaa, but neither does your printing example
2014-10-09T02:36:57Z oGMo: stacksmith: what _exactly_ is this?
2014-10-09T02:37:13Z stacksmith: I am reading a description of a large FPGA circuit.
2014-10-09T02:37:17Z oGMo: because loading it _might_ be reasonable, if you've defined as code
2014-10-09T02:37:29Z Bike: how about, eval is for /lisp/ code
2014-10-09T02:37:42Z stacksmith: It is pretty much lisp code :)
2014-10-09T02:37:50Z oGMo: stacksmith: what form is the description? rather, what does it "say"
2014-10-09T02:37:55Z White_Flame: you also have to watch for the description containing any punctuation that might trip Lisp up
2014-10-09T02:37:57Z Bike: common lisp is not a hardware description language
2014-10-09T02:38:05Z stacksmith: Nah, it's fine.
2014-10-09T02:38:14Z oGMo: Bike: blather, you can define a DSL for any of this in CL
2014-10-09T02:38:43Z Bike: yeah, sure, that doesn't mean evaling it
2014-10-09T02:38:54Z stacksmith: (tiles 31 31
2014-10-09T02:38:54Z stacksmith: 	(tile 0 0 TTERMLTERM EMPTY16X2 0
2014-10-09T02:38:54Z stacksmith: 	)
2014-10-09T02:38:54Z stacksmith: 	(tile 1 1 TL UL 7
2014-10-09T02:38:54Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site RLL_X0Y25 RESERVED_LL internal 8)
2014-10-09T02:38:54Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site DCI7 DCI internal 13)
2014-10-09T02:38:56Z oGMo: that said if the data isn't really a set of function calls, probably not the best idea
2014-10-09T02:38:58Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site DCI0 DCI internal 13)
2014-10-09T02:38:59Z White_Flame: Bike: what's the difference between loading an eval'ing?
2014-10-09T02:39:00Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site PMV PMV internal 8)
2014-10-09T02:39:02Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site DCIRESET7 DCIRESET internal 1)
2014-10-09T02:39:03Z oGMo: stacksmith: well don't paste it here :P
2014-10-09T02:39:04Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site DCIRESET0 DCIRESET internal 1)
2014-10-09T02:39:06Z stacksmith: 		(primitive_site VCC_X0Y25 VCC internal 1)
2014-10-09T02:39:08Z stacksmith: 	)
2014-10-09T02:39:10Z stacksmith: )
2014-10-09T02:39:13Z Bike: don't do that, please
2014-10-09T02:39:17Z stacksmith: Sorry, but my sample is short.
2014-10-09T02:39:23Z oGMo: 1 line is short
2014-10-09T02:39:25Z Bike: White_Flame: as in cl:load?
2014-10-09T02:39:25Z oGMo: 2 lines is long
2014-10-09T02:39:39Z stacksmith: The real file is thousands of lines.
2014-10-09T02:39:41Z oGMo: stacksmith: however, no, don't load that, it's trivial to "parse"
2014-10-09T02:39:51Z White_Flame: Bike: right, or even including in your .asd project such DSL files as source code
2014-10-09T02:40:10Z Bike: cl:load just opens a file and read/eval's a line at a time
2014-10-09T02:40:30Z oGMo: stacksmith: my usual method for that would be to define a generic function, e.g., PARSE-FPGA-STATEMENT, and have the first specialize on (eql 'thing)
2014-10-09T02:40:48Z stacksmith: first what?
2014-10-09T02:40:56Z Bike: argument to the gf
2014-10-09T02:40:56Z oGMo: first parameter
2014-10-09T02:41:06Z oGMo: you may want multiple GFs in this case
2014-10-09T02:41:59Z oGMo: your parse function should essentially process all the "top-level" forms you read like (loop as form = .. do (funcall $'parse-fpga (car form) (cdr form)) ...)
2014-10-09T02:42:08Z oGMo: that's #'
2014-10-09T02:42:12Z White_Flame: a problem with eval'ing this type of form is that inner parameters are evaluated before the outer ones, so if anything refers to or relies on its container, that won't be available at eval time anyway
2014-10-09T02:42:15Z Bike: plus if you do this with normal functions you'll be able to do (parse (generate-something)) later, and that's always nice.
2014-10-09T02:42:26Z oGMo: White_Flame: yeah this is really not suitable for eval or load
2014-10-09T02:42:45Z oGMo: some things _might_ be, like a configuration file, but
2014-10-09T02:43:05Z oGMo: Bike: yes
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2014-10-09T02:43:29Z stacksmith: Crap, I thought I could do something with macros, as it looks kind of like a DSL.
2014-10-09T02:43:36Z White_Flame: you could
2014-10-09T02:43:37Z oGMo: if i had a blog i would write a post on this sort of thing, because it's really really easy but no one seems to know how to do it ;/
2014-10-09T02:43:42Z Bike: you can, it's just not the best way, is all
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2014-10-09T02:44:12Z oGMo: stacksmith: macros are for writing code, not this
2014-10-09T02:44:18Z White_Flame: the only thing macros gain over functions in this case is the ability to take unquoted symbols and treat them as symbols
2014-10-09T02:44:55Z oGMo: White_Flame: they're _already_ symbols, though
2014-10-09T02:45:09Z Bike: stacksmith: incidentally, is this for a translation into another hdl or do you have actual bitcode access?
2014-10-09T02:45:18Z stacksmith: oGMo, you seem to have a fixed definition for what code is...
2014-10-09T02:45:19Z oGMo: macros just let you preprocess _code_ as data, you don't need it if you already _have_ data
2014-10-09T02:45:33Z White_Flame: oGMo:  if primitive_site was a function, it'd eval with an unbound var error on DCI7 etc
2014-10-09T02:45:43Z oGMo: stacksmith: by "code" i mean "the thing that's about to be compiled after it was just read"
2014-10-09T02:45:53Z malisper: White_Flame: not quite, macros can also modify the scope.
2014-10-09T02:45:57Z stacksmith: Things that build objects look like code to me.
2014-10-09T02:46:05Z Bike: that describes all data formats
2014-10-09T02:46:19Z White_Flame: I think you mean sexprs that build objects look like code :)
2014-10-09T02:46:47Z oGMo: White_Flame: sure but it's just a list, it's not about to be evaluated, so that's not going to happen
2014-10-09T02:47:08Z stacksmith: Why exactly should it not be evaluated though?
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2014-10-09T02:47:44Z oGMo: stacksmith: you could, in theory, but that's probably the most painful and least flexible approach here
2014-10-09T02:47:46Z Bike: do you really want to do (eval `(fpga ,(generate-something))) instead of (parse-fpga (generate-something))?
2014-10-09T02:48:14Z stacksmith: Well, not really.  But eval does take care of the parens...
2014-10-09T02:48:15Z oGMo: you could define all of those as a DSL, but it'd be a massive pain
2014-10-09T02:48:27Z oGMo: stacksmith: there are no parens
2014-10-09T02:48:35Z stacksmith: ???
2014-10-09T02:48:46Z White_Flame: the reader takes care of the parens
2014-10-09T02:48:51Z White_Flame: converting them into lists
2014-10-09T02:49:24Z oGMo: stacksmith: there are only lists. you can then process the lists.
2014-10-09T02:49:28Z stacksmith: The whole damn thing is a list though.  100Mb+
2014-10-09T02:49:29Z White_Flame: and as long as the syntax is defined as compatible, _reading_ this file as lisp makes a whole lot of sense
2014-10-09T02:49:53Z oGMo: stacksmith: well, worst case you need to write a reader
2014-10-09T02:50:07Z oGMo: i.e., it's so big it blows up your lisp, but i highly doubt it
2014-10-09T02:50:15Z oGMo: if it does make your heap bigger
2014-10-09T02:50:31Z Bike: being a list doesn't mean you should evaluate something, geez. think of the poor alists.
2014-10-09T02:51:16Z stacksmith: Bike, this is a list in which the first element is something that is pretty much a function, the rest, arguments...
2014-10-09T02:51:35Z White_Flame: I'll go against the grain and say that, again depending on exactly what sort of foo the file will contain, loading it as lisp code will be fine
2014-10-09T02:51:39Z oGMo: it's much more like XML afaict
2014-10-09T02:51:52Z oGMo: and by that i mean "a hierarchical document/description"
2014-10-09T02:51:54Z White_Flame: presuming that all your functions do is build up objects
2014-10-09T02:52:27Z oGMo: i.e., you don't first evaluate the innermost "primitive_site" to a value, then pass that as a parameter to the next-most-outer "function call" do you?
2014-10-09T02:52:36Z White_Flame: I just don't see much distinction in having inline DSL implemented via macros, vs external files of DSL implemented via macros
2014-10-09T02:52:44Z stacksmith: White_Flame, it is a machine-generated syntactically correct program that I need to define a DSL for to build my own description of the FPGA.
2014-10-09T02:53:42Z stacksmith: Normally I would just parse it line by line (as I do in the C++ version, yuck).  But I thought I could be smarter here.
2014-10-09T02:53:54Z oGMo: you can, can you paste that somewhere I can copy and paste it from?
2014-10-09T02:54:11Z oGMo: i'll show you, it's like trivially few lines
2014-10-09T02:54:25Z stacksmith: Thanks oGMo, gimme a sec
2014-10-09T02:54:58Z oGMo: i mean, assuming what it looks like to me is what it is
2014-10-09T02:55:28Z stacksmith: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143979#1
2014-10-09T02:55:57Z oGMo: also what are you trying ot _do_ with it after you have it?
2014-10-09T02:56:45Z Bike: if this is leading up to me not having to use xilinx i'd be pretty pumped
2014-10-09T02:56:46Z stacksmith: OK, tiles defines a two-dimensional array.  Each (tile x y...) creates an object that contains primitive_sites...
2014-10-09T02:57:01Z stacksmith: Simple stuff.
2014-10-09T02:57:15Z White_Flame: and to further my point, a very handy thing about implementing data DSLs with macros is that you get Lisp operational semantics inside, for instance to perform math in some of your value slots
2014-10-09T02:57:20Z stacksmith: Bike, check out FPGAsm on github.
2014-10-09T02:58:02Z stacksmith: White_Flame, yes.  So you agree with my approach, right?
2014-10-09T02:58:04Z Bike: aw, you do. well, so it goes.
2014-10-09T02:58:19Z White_Flame: stacksmith: For this particular instance, I see it as a likely decent shortcut
2014-10-09T02:58:32Z oGMo: (i will abuse destructuring-bind, but you don't _have_ to)
2014-10-09T02:58:33Z White_Flame: it is a shortcut, and generally considered a hackish one, but it's just another DSL.
2014-10-09T02:58:49Z stacksmith: That is my thinking.
2014-10-09T02:59:01Z White_Flame: By using macros, you eliminate manual dispatch tables for head symbols
2014-10-09T02:59:23Z White_Flame: (though that's not usually a huge programmer load, it does shave it off)
2014-10-09T02:59:23Z stacksmith: Yes, there are very few head symbols.
2014-10-09T02:59:57Z White_Flame: but there are a lot more cross-referencing languages where handling in eval order would not work well
2014-10-09T03:00:16Z White_Flame: and a "read as list, parse as data" approach would be more appropriate
2014-10-09T03:00:46Z stacksmith: Well, it's a little tricky as the outer 'tiles' form establishes an array, and inner 'tile' entries have to store themselves in it...
2014-10-09T03:01:04Z White_Flame: those are 2 different functionalities, with 2 different head symbols
2014-10-09T03:01:27Z White_Flame: if the single symbol "tile" meant different things in different contexts, treating it as data would be better
2014-10-09T03:01:41Z stacksmith: Right.
2014-10-09T03:03:06Z stacksmith: So please clarify - using read would still load the entire (...) expression, right?
2014-10-09T03:03:20Z Bike: read just takes characters and gives you a list, yeah.
2014-10-09T03:03:27Z White_Flame: not for the Lisp definition of "load", no.
2014-10-09T03:03:38Z Bike: if you have "(foo" on one line it will continue reading further lines, if that's what you're asking.
2014-10-09T03:03:51Z White_Flame: Lisp's definition of load includes evaluating what's loaded
2014-10-09T03:03:59Z White_Flame: s/loaded/read from the file/
2014-10-09T03:04:37Z stacksmith: Well, it might be worth line-parsing it, just to avoid loading 100Mb of sexps...
2014-10-09T03:05:04Z White_Flame: if you use macros, you'll have 100Mb of sexprs, then the massive newly-consed macroexpanded version, then all the stuff that the compiler builds out of it
2014-10-09T03:05:21Z White_Flame: most of it existing simultaneously
2014-10-09T03:05:46Z White_Flame: but regardless, you'll have at least hundreds of megs of in-memory structures built up at the end in the best case
2014-10-09T03:05:48Z stacksmith: I was hoping the macros could reduce the &rest
2014-10-09T03:06:10Z oGMo: stacksmith: https://gist.github.com/rpav/06525c5c902938c1ddae
2014-10-09T03:06:11Z Bike: macroexpansion only works on fully-read forms.
2014-10-09T03:06:35Z stacksmith: Bike, that puts a damper on my fancy ideas.
2014-10-09T03:06:50Z oGMo: stacksmith: this is abbreviated .. i don't actually e.g. make structs for the tiles, or actually parse each primitive_site, but it would be no different
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2014-10-09T03:07:35Z oGMo: you would just add a loop to the 'TILE method over exprs, and do what you want with them (stuff them in a list or array or structure or whatever)
2014-10-09T03:07:43Z Bike: stacksmith: it wouldn't be hard to take oGMo's approach and interleave it with parsing, since the methods for are all separated out.
2014-10-09T03:08:30Z Bike: e.g., you have your own routine for reading the paren, then the head symbol, then depending on the head symbol you do something with the rest (read it all at once with a primitive_site, or not with a tiles)
2014-10-09T03:08:49Z White_Flame: oGMo: that's nice.  I hadn't used that pattern before
2014-10-09T03:08:57Z oGMo: Bike: i'm not sure why you'd need to do that
2014-10-09T03:09:09Z Bike: well, if you wanted to, i guess.
2014-10-09T03:09:11Z White_Flame: of course, it still doesn't do line-by-line
2014-10-09T03:09:20Z oGMo: the data isn't linear
2014-10-09T03:09:46Z White_Flame: depends on the syntax spec
2014-10-09T03:10:09Z stacksmith: Bike, that is how I parsed it in C++.
2014-10-09T03:10:21Z oGMo: you _could_ write your own readre but really 100MB is tiny
2014-10-09T03:10:47Z stacksmith: So the consensus is that loading a 100MB sexp is OK?
2014-10-09T03:10:53Z oGMo: assuming you're not doing this on a phone or something :P even then heh
2014-10-09T03:11:12Z White_Flame: stacksmith:  you'll get compression on symbol names and indentation will disappear
2014-10-09T03:11:17Z oGMo: stacksmith: you're going to discard it when you're done, so why not?
2014-10-09T03:11:21Z Bike: 100 MB sounds fine to me, probably
2014-10-09T03:11:26Z oGMo: try it and see
2014-10-09T03:11:27Z Bike: if it's not, you move to the more pain in the ass options
2014-10-09T03:11:27Z White_Flame: even though each cons cell will be 16 bytes or whatever on a 64-bit system
2014-10-09T03:12:12Z stacksmith: Cool.  I just put together a new machine with 16Gigs or RAM, my old box was paging like mad.
2014-10-09T03:12:20Z White_Flame: actually, if a symbol ref is an 8-byte pointer, if most of your symbols are smaller than that you'll get expansion there
2014-10-09T03:12:28Z oGMo: do a (with-open-file (in "foo") (read in) (values)) and see if it blows up
2014-10-09T03:13:29Z White_Flame: (setf *permanent-var* (read in)), to keep it around
2014-10-09T03:14:04Z oGMo: stacksmith: given most new phones these days have like 2GB+ you'd really have to use a tiny embedded or legacy system for that to matter much
2014-10-09T03:14:22Z oGMo: well the trick is to _not_ keep it around, or you _do_ have a huge list in memory
2014-10-09T03:14:36Z White_Flame: oGMo: I could easy see 10x expansion going from text or binary to memory structures, especially list-based
2014-10-09T03:14:39Z oGMo: for development though, you would
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2014-10-09T03:15:15Z White_Flame: stacksmith: just make sure your REPL never ends up returning/printing the list.  You'll hang emacs for a long time
2014-10-09T03:15:39Z oGMo: White_Flame: eh. each cons cell is 16 bytes .. symbols would be reused, fixnums unboxed.. shouldn't be that bug
2014-10-09T03:15:42Z oGMo: "big'
2014-10-09T03:15:56Z White_Flame: many symbols are 2-5 characters long
2014-10-09T03:16:00Z oGMo: yeah try not to print that heh. working on a smaller sample is most certainly a win
2014-10-09T03:16:01Z White_Flame: so that's expansion
2014-10-09T03:16:24Z oGMo: White_Flame: the cons cell is _already_ always 16 bytes
2014-10-09T03:16:49Z stacksmith: Well, it read the tiles section but of course it's tiny compared to the rest.
2014-10-09T03:16:53Z oGMo: that's 2 pointers, the one to the reused/interned symbol or the fixnum, and the one to the next list
2014-10-09T03:16:54Z White_Flame: "(tiles 2 2)" is 11 bytes in ASCII, 48 bytes in cons cells not including the interning
2014-10-09T03:17:22Z stacksmith: Fuck RAM, my Forth days are over.
2014-10-09T03:17:24Z White_Flame: though I agree, the symbol table size is irrelevant
2014-10-09T03:17:45Z White_Flame: stacksmith: A very good mindset to have.  Though when it ends up hurting, it hurts BAD :)
2014-10-09T03:17:52Z oGMo: stacksmith: well if you have multiple toplevel forms in the file, each can be read and processed separately
2014-10-09T03:17:53Z Bike: i wonder if a reader that didn't make sure everything was freshly consed would be at all useful
2014-10-09T03:18:26Z oGMo: Bike: premature optimization, and you'd still have to read it all to diff the structure :P
2014-10-09T03:18:28Z stacksmith: There is an awful lot of symbol repetition, which the reader should take care of.
2014-10-09T03:18:51Z Bike: yeah probably, just wondering idly
2014-10-09T03:18:51Z White_Flame: stacksmith: tile, tiles, DCI, DCI7, etc, all expand to pointers larger than the original representation
2014-10-09T03:18:59Z oGMo: and presumably this is getting read once, so it wouldn't help
2014-10-09T03:19:16Z oGMo: White_Flame: no
2014-10-09T03:19:58Z White_Flame: oGMo: sure, assuming the original representation is 8-bit characters
2014-10-09T03:20:09Z oGMo: they get pointed to by memory consed by inherently making a list of that structure :P
2014-10-09T03:20:39Z White_Flame: the very presence of that item takes up 8 bytes of data, + 8 bytes for the cdr of the cons cell created to contain it
2014-10-09T03:20:46Z oGMo: that was some order out of words, but :P
2014-10-09T03:20:54Z oGMo: White_Flame: no it doesn't
2014-10-09T03:21:08Z oGMo: the cons cell would take up that memory anyway
2014-10-09T03:21:24Z White_Flame: (foo foo) should take up 16 more bytes than (foo), but 4 more bytes in text
2014-10-09T03:21:44Z oGMo: only because you have 2 conses :p
2014-10-09T03:21:49Z White_Flame: exactly
2014-10-09T03:22:10Z White_Flame: the presence of terms in a list adds 16 bytes of overhead, plus any per-cell boxed data
2014-10-09T03:22:17Z White_Flame: s/terms/each term/
2014-10-09T03:22:27Z White_Flame: s/overhead/footprint/
2014-10-09T03:22:51Z White_Flame: compared to (tile 1 1 TL UL 7), that's quite expanded
2014-10-09T03:23:19Z oGMo: compared to _just_ that, but once you start adding up all the long symbols, eh
2014-10-09T03:23:26Z stacksmith: To be fare, (tile 1 1 ... means tile is stored at location 1,1 in the tiles array...
2014-10-09T03:23:28Z White_Flame: right, it all depends on the ratio
2014-10-09T03:23:54Z oGMo: stacksmith: oh, well, you cna change the code for that then
2014-10-09T03:24:00Z White_Flame: stacksmith: right, so that location information disappears in your final constructed layout
2014-10-09T03:24:01Z Bike: well, stacksmith's application is going to use one of the most bloated programs i've ever seen later, so byte-counting is kind of... yeah
2014-10-09T03:24:12Z White_Flame: heh
2014-10-09T03:24:33Z White_Flame: though it's not byte counting per se, but figuring rate of expansion vs on-disk form
2014-10-09T03:24:47Z stacksmith: Bike, I do use Xilinx crap for routing...
2014-10-09T03:24:52Z Bike: i still have nightmares about when i went looking through the internal directories and found out that all the executables were byte-identical other than in names
2014-10-09T03:25:13Z stacksmith: Hah.
2014-10-09T03:25:20Z White_Flame: Bike: basically busybox without symlinks? :-P
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2014-10-09T03:25:32Z oGMo: stacksmith: to do it, you probably want to (let ((*array* (make-array ... ]  and process each entry in the recursive methods
2014-10-09T03:25:52Z stacksmith: libCurl_Curl.so is there like a dozen times.
2014-10-09T03:25:59Z Bike: White_Flame: yeah, probably. either that or it called a separate java thing based on argv[0].
2014-10-09T03:26:32Z Bike: either way i'm glad i don't have it on my computer any more. who knew bare metal programming involved so much layering
2014-10-09T03:26:44Z stacksmith: Bike, you are killing me.
2014-10-09T03:26:55Z Bike: ?
2014-10-09T03:27:05Z nyef: Oh, for an open-source FPGA toolchain, huh?
2014-10-09T03:27:07Z stacksmith: It's like a USB serial port, you need like 20K of code to get it working.
2014-10-09T03:27:20Z Bike: yeah.
2014-10-09T03:27:32Z stacksmith: Things are crazy these days.
2014-10-09T03:27:37Z Bike: at least xilinx has primitives available from the HDLs. though i haven't used them.
2014-10-09T03:27:48Z oGMo: stacksmith: uefi *run*
2014-10-09T03:28:41Z stacksmith: I think there is enough information in the descriptions to route the FPGA.  I gave up since I was using C++ before, and it was hard enough just to deal with memory allocation, never mind things like routing.
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2014-10-09T03:29:36Z Bike: well, good luck with that, it was hard not to get the impression everything could use a raze. i asked a phd student doing hardware stuff about it and he started telling me about how his hdl implementation involved rewriting a running compiler in memory
2014-10-09T03:30:12Z stacksmith: Bike, it is a big steaming pile.
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2014-10-09T03:30:54Z stacksmith: I was getting the compile time down to seconds, making it possible to hack.
2014-10-09T03:31:18Z stacksmith: By compile I mean making a change and burning an FPGA.
2014-10-09T03:31:51Z White_Flame: "I asked someone doing sbcl stuff and he started telling me about how his Lisp bootstrapping involved rewriting a running compiler in memory" ;)
2014-10-09T03:32:36Z Bike: please, that's cmucl
2014-10-09T03:32:45Z White_Flame: heh
2014-10-09T03:33:12Z Bike: sbcl just compiles itself twice in a row or whatever, clearly far more reasonable
2014-10-09T03:34:59Z stacksmith: BTW, Lisp is a really _good_ HDL, if you stick to 'instantiation' methodology that I prefer anyhow.
2014-10-09T03:35:37Z nyef: Using Lisp to compile TO an HDL is an established technique as well.
2014-10-09T03:36:13Z stacksmith: nyef, that is true.  But then you have the steaming pile with a little lisp on top.
2014-10-09T03:36:26Z nyef: And avoids issues from the FPGA manufacturers not liking having their bitstream formats reverse engineered, documented, and alternative toolchains developed.
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2014-10-09T03:36:53Z stacksmith: Verilog/VHDL are really not very good HDLs afaic
2014-10-09T03:37:29Z nyef: Weren't they originally intended as SIMULATION languages, not for actual synthesis?
2014-10-09T03:37:43Z stacksmith: And now they seem very confused about which it is.
2014-10-09T03:37:44Z Bike: verilog is just messy.
2014-10-09T03:37:52Z stacksmith: VHDL is messy and verbose.
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2014-10-09T03:37:59Z nyef: Hello beach.
2014-10-09T03:38:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2014-10-09T03:38:09Z beach: Hey nyef.  What's up?
2014-10-09T03:38:37Z Bike: vhdl i don't know, but it looks like it doesn't do things like assume you have adders
2014-10-09T03:38:48Z stacksmith: nyef, FPGA manufacturers will at some point realize that they like selling chips, and alternative toolchains is actually a good thing.
2014-10-09T03:39:02Z nyef: beach: Not much right now. Bit of a discussion of FPGA stuff going on, as you can see.
2014-10-09T03:39:14Z beach: Yes, catching up from the logs.
2014-10-09T03:39:25Z Bike: maybe xilinx is like that because they took the fabless thing in a weird way
2014-10-09T03:40:36Z stacksmith: speaking of very large files, https://github.com/stacksmith/irc-lisp-html.git has the logs for the last 4+ months as a pretty HTML file.
2014-10-09T03:40:38Z nyef: stacksmith: It'll probably take a good third-party to come in with a fully-open-source stack on their own chips and taking an odd corner of the market first.
2014-10-09T03:41:14Z stacksmith: nyef, the way these bitches have been patenting things, good luck to the third party.  Unless they are google.
2014-10-09T03:41:16Z nyef: If it's just Altera and Xilinx, they won't change.
2014-10-09T03:42:06Z stacksmith: Well, Xilinx put XDL back into the ISE toolchain, after claiming to remove it...
2014-10-09T03:42:58Z stacksmith: Of course you can use tcl or something in the new Vivado or whatever.  God help us.
2014-10-09T03:44:00Z stacksmith: I am ok with XDL as it is basically a sexp description of the entire chip.  Then you can convert it to the bitstream legally...
2014-10-09T03:46:41Z stacksmith: Anyway, thanks for your help everyone.
2014-10-09T03:46:48Z nyef: Good luck!
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2014-10-09T04:08:07Z ack006 muses that perhaps all stacksmith had to do was to look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html and adapt it...
2014-10-09T04:09:03Z stacksmith: ack006 is correct.  Out of the set of possible things I could have done, that is one.
2014-10-09T04:09:49Z stacksmith: However, the example bears little resemblance to what I need to do.
2014-10-09T04:10:06Z ack006: building blocks...
2014-10-09T04:11:33Z stacksmith: ack006, while useful, I don't see how it has anything to do with my project.
2014-10-09T04:11:47Z ack006: that's up to you :-)
2014-10-09T04:12:06Z stacksmith: Okey-dokey
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2014-10-09T04:12:55Z ack006: property lists
2014-10-09T04:13:00Z stacksmith: Nah
2014-10-09T04:13:50Z brucem: hey beach
2014-10-09T04:15:06Z ack006: anyways, i'm off to some zzzs, nice talking to you all :-)
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2014-10-09T04:34:57Z chaotic_good: lsp ah lisp
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2014-10-09T04:43:14Z beach: I think I am slowly understanding what would be meant by a universal code walker.
2014-10-09T04:44:03Z beach: The shared difficulty with all code walkers seems to be the way new environments are constructed for subforms of the form to be processed.
2014-10-09T04:45:38Z martinjungblut: I don't think I understand half of those two phrases beach just said
2014-10-09T04:46:19Z beach: martinjungblut: I take it you are new here in #lisp?
2014-10-09T04:46:38Z martinjungblut: I am.. and to lisp itself as well
2014-10-09T04:46:54Z beach: OK.  Welcome to #lisp then.
2014-10-09T04:46:58Z martinjungblut: haven't written a single line yet, but the ideas behind it seem brilliant
2014-10-09T04:47:33Z beach: Indeed.
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2014-10-09T04:48:53Z martinjungblut: is common lisp the recommended dialect and implementation here?
2014-10-09T04:49:13Z beach: martinjungblut: Common Lisp is the topic of this channel, so yes.
2014-10-09T04:49:14Z oGMo: martinjungblut: that's what the channel's about, so yes ;)
2014-10-09T04:49:18Z oGMo: heh
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2014-10-09T04:49:45Z beach: martinjungblut: With respect to implementations, most people here would recommend SBCL and SLIME.
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2014-10-09T04:50:16Z beach: Well, SBCL is the implementation.  SLIME is the development environment.
2014-10-09T04:50:20Z brucem: beach: If you had to point to something (public) as a representative of some beautiful, or at least nice, code using CLIM presentations in a Listener-style environment ... any ideas? (I'm writing something about enriched textual interfaces and would like a sample of code to go along with the CLIM discussion)
2014-10-09T04:51:05Z beach: brucem: So the code itself has to be well written?
2014-10-09T04:52:08Z beach: brucem: I suppose it must also be manageable in size?
2014-10-09T04:55:06Z slyrus_ would like to see his 2-d chemical drawing stuff using clim presentations instead of just clim graphics
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2014-10-09T04:56:32Z beach: slyrus: Do it!
2014-10-09T04:56:37Z brucem: beach: yeah ... that'd be nice.
2014-10-09T04:56:57Z beach: brucem: You might try looking at TransClime, my application for learning Vietnamese.
2014-10-09T04:57:00Z slyrus_: beach: first the 2-d drawing stuff needs to work well :( I got part way there and then got distracted
2014-10-09T04:57:30Z slyrus_: would be a nice alternative to, say, bioclipse (an eclipse-based thing that uses the java-based CDK (chemistry development kit)).
2014-10-09T04:57:48Z beach: Yeah, sounds good.
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2014-10-09T04:58:21Z brucem: beach: I'm trying to propose some major changes to the textual interface of a C++ application ... not sure if CLIM presentations is entirely what I want, but it is a start towards a proposal.
2014-10-09T04:58:31Z beach: I see.
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2014-10-09T04:59:19Z beach: brucem: In TransClime, the application has two windows side by side.  On the left is a Vietnamese text, and the other one shows suggested translations when the mouse is moved over a word.
2014-10-09T04:59:33Z brucem: beach: yep, I'm already reading the code!
2014-10-09T04:59:40Z beach: Oh, OK. :)
2014-10-09T05:00:33Z beach: I am not sure the code is very elegant at this point.  I wrote it as a personal tool, and only recently made it available publicly.
2014-10-09T05:00:45Z martinjungblut: can I read that?
2014-10-09T05:00:54Z martinjungblut: ok, found it
2014-10-09T05:01:56Z beach: martinjungblut: https://github.com/robert-strandh/TransClime
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2014-10-09T05:02:12Z martinjungblut: thank you :)
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2014-10-09T05:03:10Z martinjungblut: are you climacs' original author?
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2014-10-09T05:03:22Z beach: Now I can't remember why I called it TransClime.  I found some related meaning of some similar word on the net, but I forget what.
2014-10-09T05:03:28Z beach: martinjungblut: Yes.
2014-10-09T05:03:28Z pillton: beach: Do you use McCLIM?
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2014-10-09T05:03:34Z beach: pillton: I do, yes.
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2014-10-09T05:05:18Z beach: pillton: Why do you ask?
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2014-10-09T05:09:18Z pillton: beach: I just wanted to know which CLIM implementation you use. I think I just need to persist more.
2014-10-09T05:10:32Z beach: Well, I try to stick to free software if I can, and I spent a lot of time implementing my parts of McCLIM, so it is "natural" that I use McCLIM.
2014-10-09T05:11:25Z beach: pillton: If you have issues with McCLIM, let me know.  I am the self-proclaimed maintainer now.
2014-10-09T05:12:09Z pillton: beach: Cheers. I will.
2014-10-09T05:13:22Z beach: For what it's worth, I think the extremely violent criticism of McCLIM that I often see here is both unwarranted and counterproductive.
2014-10-09T05:14:27Z chaotic_good: vi!
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2014-10-09T05:16:03Z pillton: I haven't been paying attention to it so don't worry.
2014-10-09T05:16:29Z beach: Sure, it was meant for everyone, not just you.
2014-10-09T05:16:32Z beach: I need to go take my bread out of the oven.  I'll be right back.
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2014-10-09T05:21:31Z beach is back.
2014-10-09T05:22:26Z martinjungblut: homemade bread is the best
2014-10-09T05:22:35Z beach: I agree.
2014-10-09T05:22:58Z beach: pillton: TransClime is a good example of how compact a CLIM application can be.
2014-10-09T05:24:35Z beach: The entire application is around 600 lines of code, and maybe only 20% of that has to do with the GUI.
2014-10-09T05:25:24Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2014-10-09T05:25:26Z drmeister: How careful do I need to be when using git?  Let's say I'm in the devel branch and everything is committed and I'm compiling my entire source tree.
2014-10-09T05:25:40Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2014-10-09T05:25:40Z drmeister:  If I go into another window and "git checkout master"   will that cause trouble?
2014-10-09T05:26:45Z beach: "another window"?  But the same directory?
2014-10-09T05:27:16Z drmeister: Same repository, possibly same directory
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2014-10-09T05:27:55Z beach: Clearly if your git commands affect the code already checked out and compiling, then you might get in trouble.
2014-10-09T05:28:33Z beach: Otherwise, I don't see a problem.
2014-10-09T05:29:38Z drmeister: If I switch between two branches that have just been merged then there's probably no problem but then if I do a pull request - that will change code and things will get ... complicated.
2014-10-09T05:29:52Z drmeister: I guess the idea is don't change code out from under the build.
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2014-10-09T05:30:01Z beach: Definitely.
2014-10-09T05:30:23Z beach: But you can use two different directories.
2014-10-09T05:31:48Z pillton: beach: I will take a look at TransClime. I was sold with the idea of streams that could display things other than text.
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2014-10-09T05:32:45Z drmeister: I should have prefixed my git question with:   General question.
2014-10-09T05:33:06Z slyrus_ wonders if he's the only one here actually using a clim application at the moment
2014-10-09T05:33:06Z drmeister: beach - I didn't mean to bug you specifically with my git question - sorry.
2014-10-09T05:33:27Z pillton: slyrus_: which one?
2014-10-09T05:33:29Z beach: pillton: I see.  A CLIM stream just means that it maintains a cursor that is modified whenever it receives output.
2014-10-09T05:33:30Z drmeister: I meant to bug everyone with it.   For some reason irccloud wasn't letting me post questions in #git.
2014-10-09T05:33:37Z slyrus_: pillton: beirc
2014-10-09T05:33:47Z drmeister: And for that I am sorry as well.  It's a Canadian thing.
2014-10-09T05:34:25Z beach: slyrus_: Ah, nice!
2014-10-09T05:34:30Z drmeister grabs the cat and heads off to bed.
2014-10-09T05:35:27Z pillton will check out beirc too.
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2014-10-09T05:42:50Z drmeister: oh there was one thing. beach are you still wrestling with developing a portable backend for Cleavir?
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2014-10-09T05:46:08Z drmeister: If so I'm sure you've been checking out llvm-IR. Are there any downsides to targetting that?
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2014-10-09T05:53:14Z beach: Targeting it?  How so?
2014-10-09T05:54:50Z beach: drmeister: The wrestling has to do with issues related to software-engineering, i.e., how do I put in as much functionality as possible, while still allowing the creator of some implementation to customize as much as he/she likes.
2014-10-09T05:58:30Z beach: drmeister: The code I write will not depend on any code written in a language other than Common Lisp, or at least as little as possible.
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2014-10-09T07:31:03Z flip214: drmeister: +1 for http://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/debugging-with-the-clasp-debugger/ ;)
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2014-10-09T08:01:43Z moore33: Let's say I have a class that has "attributes," which are name-value pairs. At some point I might have to create subclasses that have additional attributes, but this would not come about when compiling or loading a lisp file: for example, loading a 3d model.
2014-10-09T08:02:34Z moore33: Better to just use an alist and a single class definition, or go-to-down with ensure-class and create classes with slots that contain the attributes?
2014-10-09T08:02:49Z moore33: uh, /go-to-down/go-to-town/
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2014-10-09T08:18:56Z H4ns: moore33: i usually start with plists and then refactor into classes once i have worked out the design
2014-10-09T08:19:20Z H4ns: moore33: i also have a bunch of systems in productions where the second stept did not happen and things are a bit messy
2014-10-09T08:20:22Z H4ns: moore33: maybe your use case is a bit different in that you already seem to know your design.  i often don't when i start.
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2014-10-09T08:23:09Z moore33: H4ns: I have a fair idea of the design. I know that some attributes are "special" and will be accessed by my code a lot, but I also have to be prepared for user-defined attributes. Using slots would probably be a micro-optimization.
2014-10-09T08:23:58Z H4ns: moore33: what usually concerns me more is that readability of code that uses plists (or alists ftm) usually is not that great.
2014-10-09T08:24:14Z moore33: Yeah.
2014-10-09T08:24:24Z H4ns: moore33: i mean you _can_ come up with named accessors for plists, but then why not use slots in the first place?
2014-10-09T08:24:34Z moore33: exactly
2014-10-09T08:25:13Z H4ns: moore33: so slots.  and some form of storing non-special attributes neatly in the object, maybe in a hash table with a nice accessor mechanism.
2014-10-09T08:27:14Z moore33: However, another thing I need to consider is if I need to determine the attributes in a random class, in which the alist approach would probably be better... or maybe just for the "nonspecial" attributes.
2014-10-09T08:28:39Z H4ns: moore33: what's wrong with class-slots?
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2014-10-09T08:29:29Z H4ns: moore33: accessing the list of defined attributes for a class with class-slots would not be much slower (if at all) than traversing an alist for its keys.
2014-10-09T08:29:42Z moore33: H4ns: Good point.
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2014-10-09T08:32:34Z moore33: I need to revisit (who am I kidding, "visit" :) how to properly initialize a class slot with contributions from all the super classes; I suppose it's as simple as making initialize-instance handle the case where the class slot is not yet initialized.
2014-10-09T08:34:09Z H4ns: moore33: initialize-instance is called from least to most specific, so a subclass' method will never run before all superclass' methods have run
2014-10-09T08:34:23Z H4ns: or is it?
2014-10-09T08:34:24Z H4ns: hm.
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2014-10-09T08:35:12Z H4ns: of course not.  it is just a generic function, so if you define an initialize-instance primary method for a certain class, it will be called before any methods with less specific specialization, sorry.
2014-10-09T08:35:30Z H4ns: so much about "simple"?
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2014-10-09T08:41:18Z moore33: Generally I define initialize-instance primary methods by mistake ;)
2014-10-09T08:42:01Z H4ns: right.  and then you run into unbound superclass slots :)
2014-10-09T08:43:01Z moore33: Or total breakage because the method on standard-object is never called...
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2014-10-09T08:59:40Z dim: I often define initialize-instance primary methods to do some processing here, maybe it's the way I do OOP, but I often have things I want to happen at this time (pre-compute some slots, etc)
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2014-10-09T09:09:14Z H4ns: dim: nothing wrong with it, as long as you don't forget to (call-next-method) :)
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2014-10-09T09:14:36Z dim: I usually forget, I'm not sure I do realize I should :(
2014-10-09T09:15:09Z dim: well usually I don't inherit from other classes, or only from classes that I maintain too, and I tend to have a top-level "abstract" class and only direct sub-classes from there
2014-10-09T09:15:35Z dim: I like generics, I don't like OOP, so I limit my OOP practise to the bare minimum that makes sense for me
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2014-10-09T10:47:43Z Krystof:           /* if modus is mehrzeiler, we KNOW it is so
2014-10-09T10:47:43Z Krystof:            if it is einzeiler, it might have :LINEAR newlines */
2014-10-09T10:47:47Z Krystof: why?  why?
2014-10-09T10:49:19Z fe[nl]ix: where is that from ?
2014-10-09T10:49:48Z Krystof: clisp source code
2014-10-09T10:50:15Z Krystof sees a short blog entry coming
2014-10-09T10:50:39Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2014-10-09T10:51:44Z wasamasa: sounds like someone german worked on that part of the code
2014-10-09T10:51:57Z Krystof: oh, this is much less incomprehensible than it used to be
2014-10-09T10:52:03Z Krystof: at some point it was all in German
2014-10-09T10:52:06Z wasamasa: scary
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2014-10-09T10:52:42Z wasamasa: especially if they're using a language that doesn't allow diacritics in symbols
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2014-10-09T11:04:07Z flip214: drmeister: would you think about changing the name? "apt-cache show clasp" => "clasp is an answer set solver for (extended) normal logic programs" ...
2014-10-09T11:04:35Z wasamasa: noo
2014-10-09T11:07:04Z White_Flame: call it cllllllvm, common lisp low-level linkage to llvm
2014-10-09T11:07:38Z flip214: colilolelillvm
2014-10-09T11:07:56Z flip214: perhaps only colilolelill
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2014-10-09T13:13:07Z drmeister: No, Clasp is "an unusual and efficient usage of functional programming language Common LISP as simulation program (CLASP) for electronic circuits."  -  https://github.com/openlisp/clasp
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2014-10-09T13:13:42Z drmeister: It's also a name for something that fastens things together.
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2014-10-09T13:14:17Z drmeister: I agree, disambiguation is good and for those purposes I'll call it "clasp-llvm"
2014-10-09T13:14:26Z stassats: what a boring name
2014-10-09T13:15:13Z drmeister: Like "Steel Bank Common Lisp".
2014-10-09T13:15:28Z flip214: "a.k.a. AUAEUOFPLCLASP"
2014-10-09T13:15:29Z Grue`: steel bank common lisp is a pun
2014-10-09T13:15:44Z stassats: minion: what does CLASP stand for?
2014-10-09T13:15:44Z minion: Conepate Locomotiveness Anergia Sweater Peripatetic
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2014-10-09T13:17:56Z flip214: minion: what does CLASP stand for?
2014-10-09T13:17:56Z minion: Caeremoniarius Lateen Aponeurositis Semisaprophytic Pluricuspidate
2014-10-09T13:18:17Z stassats: that one's too long, pick the first
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2014-10-09T13:20:33Z flip214: Can't Learn A Second Programming language
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2014-10-09T13:21:40Z Xach: C? Lisp Adds Superior Plusplus
2014-10-09T13:22:31Z Shinmera: Come Learn About Smug Practises
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2014-10-09T13:23:20Z prxq .oO( Shinmera wins )
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2014-10-09T13:30:02Z flip214: now, if clasp-llvm includes cl21 by default .... ;)
2014-10-09T13:30:07Z wasamasa: Can Lisp Achieve Super Powers?
2014-10-09T13:31:15Z flip214: Electronic Circuit simulator via Lisp ... ECL
2014-10-09T13:31:42Z stassats: i imagine that would be enough acronyms for today
2014-10-09T13:31:57Z protist: why is clash LGPL?
2014-10-09T13:32:03Z wasamasa: fwiw, https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/clasp/
2014-10-09T13:32:05Z protist: so you can't make a comercial product using it?
2014-10-09T13:32:19Z protist: oh LGPL
2014-10-09T13:32:23Z protist: sorry got confused
2014-10-09T13:32:49Z wasamasa: judging by the dependencies the distros have that clasp because it's a dependency of opam, the ocaml package manager
2014-10-09T13:33:57Z wasamasa: so a different name would be a good idea
2014-10-09T13:35:11Z Shinmera: Kinda late to change the name now
2014-10-09T13:35:36Z wasamasa: yeah, it's the first thing I check before going for a new project
2014-10-09T13:35:49Z wasamasa: whether there's something sufficiently popular by that name on github
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2014-10-09T13:39:11Z eudoxia: meh, the package can be clasp-lisp or whatever
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2014-10-09T13:43:02Z moore33: drmeister: How do you access C++ class definitions in clasp? Are field accessors, member functions etc. automatically created?
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2014-10-09T14:35:53Z BitPuffin: Which was the best FFI lib for CL?
2014-10-09T14:36:00Z BitPuffin: slash is
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2014-10-09T14:36:41Z Bike: cffi is the usual
2014-10-09T14:37:18Z Xach: BitPuffin: CFFI is the best.
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2014-10-09T14:38:17Z BitPuffin: alright cool thanks
2014-10-09T14:38:22Z BitPuffin: gonna make some allegro5 bindings
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2014-10-09T14:39:23Z BitPuffin: and add a PR to CLinch to have a version for it or something
2014-10-09T14:39:30Z Xach: There's an old one here: http://cl-alleg.sourceforge.net/
2014-10-09T14:39:44Z Xach: very old
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2014-10-09T14:39:57Z BitPuffin: yeah probably for allegro 4
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2014-10-09T14:41:11Z Xach: Hard to search for it due to Franz Allegro Common Lisp
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2014-10-09T14:46:56Z wasamasa found out today one of the guys at work used allegro CL successfully for a project
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2014-10-09T14:48:11Z |3b| thought someone in here had been talking about allegro5 bindings, don't remember if they had released anything or not
2014-10-09T14:48:24Z erikc: does sbcl or clozurecl have an equivalent of these cltl2 environment functions? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html
2014-10-09T14:49:02Z |3b|: https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro seems to be it
2014-10-09T14:52:23Z Xach: erikc: sbcl has an sb-cltl2 package
2014-10-09T14:52:52Z Xach: erikc: i'm not sure how completely it implements those functions, though.
2014-10-09T14:56:14Z Bike: pretty completely
2014-10-09T14:56:25Z Bike: the functions are also available in the ccl package, but they might not be exported
2014-10-09T15:01:44Z erikc: maybe im barking up the wrong tree but these can be used to version a macro’s output based on the declared type of a variable
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2014-10-09T15:02:28Z stassats: that's a bad idea
2014-10-09T15:02:42Z erikc: o?
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2014-10-09T15:06:48Z BitPuffin: |3b|: nice find!
2014-10-09T15:06:58Z |3b|: erikc: opticl may do something like that (not completely sure what you mean though)
2014-10-09T15:07:21Z BitPuffin: |3b|: do you know if it's for 5.0 or 5.1?
2014-10-09T15:07:36Z |3b|: BitPuffin: no idea, just saw it mentioned in the channel
2014-10-09T15:07:59Z BitPuffin: okay
2014-10-09T15:08:00Z BitPuffin: well cool
2014-10-09T15:08:03Z BitPuffin: saves me some time :)
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2014-10-09T15:08:15Z stassats: erikc: that is pretty limited
2014-10-09T15:08:39Z stassats: you don't have any information from the type propagation and derivation system
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2014-10-09T15:09:04Z erikc: ah, that’s true
2014-10-09T15:09:06Z |3b| wouldn't say it is a 'bad' idea, just maybe not the best one
2014-10-09T15:09:11Z stassats: might as well just use some other way to communicate instead of using a non-portable extension to do it with DECLARE
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2014-10-09T15:16:53Z erikc: opticl uses it fish the the image dimensions from a declared array type if available to optimize a setf-expander, cute
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2014-10-09T15:36:42Z moore33: erikc: One would probably recommend using symbol macros to portably communicate that sort of thing to macros.
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2014-10-09T16:01:16Z drmeister: moore33:  Check out https://github.com/drmeister/demo-clasp-cxx   -  it compiles on OS X but not Linux.  You can load the dynamic libraries it builds straight into Clasp to add C++ functions/classes/member functions/enums etc.
2014-10-09T16:01:27Z drmeister: I haven't advertised this yet.
2014-10-09T16:01:46Z drmeister: I've got to get it compiling in Linux.
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2014-10-09T16:07:10Z splittist: drmeister: what is the returned by (dv:make-double-vector-with-values '(1 2 3)), for example? If I CL:DESCRIBE it, what do I see?
2014-10-09T16:07:19Z splittist is not sitting at his mac and is lazy (:
2014-10-09T16:10:07Z moore33: drmeister: Ok.
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2014-10-09T16:15:31Z drmeister: splittist: It returns a special primitive object called a DV:DOUBLE-VECTOR
2014-10-09T16:17:17Z drmeister: It's a special object that you can add to other DV:DOUBLE-VECTORs  (dv:add x result y)   or calculate dot products (dv:dot x y)
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2014-10-09T16:21:25Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2014-10-09T16:22:21Z splittist: Evening beach.
2014-10-09T16:22:26Z splittist: drmeister: thanks
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2014-10-09T16:24:35Z rpg: ABCL question: anyone know how ABCL decides how to signal undefined function messages? Shouldn't these be suppressed when inside WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT with the function definitions?
2014-10-09T16:25:25Z moore33: beach: Hey there.
2014-10-09T16:26:11Z beach: moore33: What's up?
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2014-10-09T16:26:41Z moore33: Forcing myself to hack Lisp code before bed instead of playing video games :)
2014-10-09T16:26:52Z beach: Good plan!
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2014-10-09T16:27:12Z moore33: Hard to do; it would probably help if I booted back into Linux.
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2014-10-09T16:27:44Z beach: What do you use now?
2014-10-09T16:28:09Z moore33: beach: I've been using CCL on Windows, which works quite well.
2014-10-09T16:28:43Z moore33: You might remember that I did most of my McClim work using the ancestor of CCL, OpenMCL.
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2014-10-09T16:28:55Z beach: Rings a bell, yes.
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2014-10-09T16:29:42Z splittist: drmeister: so one could add something like . def("dvref",&DoubleVector::operator[]) to the package 'declaration'?
2014-10-09T16:30:37Z rme: moore33: What's your real name, if you don't mind?  Please /msg me if you want.
2014-10-09T16:30:58Z moore33: rme: Tim Moore
2014-10-09T16:31:26Z moore33: I'm not hiding much in my nick; it includes a clue to my location.
2014-10-09T16:31:41Z beach: Not much longer maybe.
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2014-10-09T16:32:04Z moore33: beach: They're not changing the departments, are they?!
2014-10-09T16:32:44Z beach: I think they are planning to get rid of them in a few years if I understand correctly.  Maybe pjb knows more.
2014-10-09T16:32:50Z diginet: how are closures a functional programming feature? To me, they imply lots of implicit state
2014-10-09T16:33:14Z moore33: beach: Wow, that's a lot of history on the trash heap.
2014-10-09T16:33:22Z beach: Yep.
2014-10-09T16:33:38Z splittist: It's always Year 0 for some people (:
2014-10-09T16:34:19Z moore33: Gotta go; bbl maybe. Say hi to your admittedly small family :)
2014-10-09T16:34:28Z beach: Will do.
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2014-10-09T16:35:31Z beach: drmeister: I answered you about LLVM, but I don't know whether you saw it.
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2014-10-09T17:05:04Z stacksmith: G'day.  A reader question: I disabled the reader macro character: (set-macro-character #
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2014-10-09T17:06:08Z stacksmith: (set-macro-character #\# nil).  But  reading "foo:bar" still says that there is no package foo.  Where is the colon parsed?
2014-10-09T17:06:38Z Bike: symbol parsing isn't done by a macro character, you can't disable it i don't think
2014-10-09T17:07:23Z Bike: you can use \ and | to escape symbols, though. |foo:bar| or foo\:bar won't involve package foo
2014-10-09T17:08:21Z Xach: stacksmith: it is wired pretty deeply.
2014-10-09T17:08:29Z stacksmith: Well, I am doing my idiotic excercise of parsing Xilinx files as Lisp, so reader macros are the only thing I have.
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2014-10-09T17:09:13Z Xach: how much like lisp source code is it, other than the : in tokens?
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2014-10-09T17:10:02Z stacksmith: It's pretty much Lisp with some idiotic exceptions: <newline># ... are comments, some aaa:bbb symbols and odd usage of # in a few places.
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2014-10-09T17:10:51Z shka: ave tux™
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2014-10-09T17:11:45Z stacksmith: The use of # throws a wrench in, but I am stumped by aaa:bbb format.
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2014-10-09T17:12:21Z Grue`: have you considered preprocessing the source so that the reader can read it easier?
2014-10-09T17:12:30Z shka: dear lisp
2014-10-09T17:12:40Z shka: how to get class if i have a string?
2014-10-09T17:12:41Z stacksmith: Grue`, it seems like cheating, but it would certainly work.
2014-10-09T17:13:20Z |3b|: shka: some combination of STRING-UPCASE and FIND-SYMBOL
2014-10-09T17:13:29Z |3b|: and FIND-CLASS i guess
2014-10-09T17:13:30Z Xach: shka: in steps. first, use find-symbol, then use find-class.
2014-10-09T17:13:30Z shka: i thought that i should use find-symbol and find-class
2014-10-09T17:13:40Z shka: aaah so i thinked correctly
2014-10-09T17:14:07Z shka: let me try it, since it didn't worked correctly last time
2014-10-09T17:14:28Z |3b|: remember that most symbols have upper case names
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2014-10-09T17:15:36Z shka: |3b|: bingo
2014-10-09T17:16:16Z shka: but, most ≠ all?
2014-10-09T17:17:02Z Xach: shka: under the default settings and without escapes, symbol names are converted to uppercase.
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2014-10-09T17:17:15Z shka: i noticed that
2014-10-09T17:17:20Z Xach: But symbol names can be any string.
2014-10-09T17:17:27Z shka: i noticed that as well
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2014-10-09T17:17:44Z shka: since i actually created symbol with lowercase
2014-10-09T17:17:47Z shka: by mistake
2014-10-09T17:17:57Z shka: it was pita to debug
2014-10-09T17:18:13Z shka: because i was not expecting it
2014-10-09T17:18:26Z shka: i didn't thinked that it is even possible
2014-10-09T17:18:53Z rme: stacksmith: Though it's really tempting to try to use the reader for data that is pretty close to Lisp, my opinion is that one is always better off doing it oneself.
2014-10-09T17:19:13Z rme: Not what you want to hear, I'm sure.
2014-10-09T17:19:18Z shka: Xach: since then, i'm wondering: why cl uses case sensitve symbols for names, but converts everything to the upcase
2014-10-09T17:19:37Z shka: while C-languages are simply case sensitive
2014-10-09T17:19:38Z |3b|: history, old code from when upper case was all they had, etc
2014-10-09T17:19:41Z Xach: shka: i suspect for compatibility with existing large codebases.
2014-10-09T17:19:52Z shka: this seems to be a valid reason
2014-10-09T17:20:05Z stacksmith: rme, I've heard that opinion before, but I it's so f**king close!
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2014-10-09T17:39:15Z Blkt: is there a portuguese lisper online?
2014-10-09T17:39:55Z shka: Blkt: problems with explaining your problem?
2014-10-09T17:40:32Z Blkt: no, I just need info about a resturant we've been during ELS 2011
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2014-10-09T17:43:00Z shka: oh, ok
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2014-10-09T17:45:01Z Xach: luis and capitaomorte might be around.
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2014-10-09T17:46:16Z wasamasa: capitaomorte: ping
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2014-10-09T18:10:19Z pjb: stacksmith: the problem of CL:EVAL is that it doesn't take an &environment argument.  Notice the &environment argument of macros.  If you want to macroexpand inside a macro, you must use it to get correct results.  Calling EVAL while expanding the macro would require an environment, but probably not the one obtained by &environment in the macro lambda list.
2014-10-09T18:10:28Z pjb: stacksmith: as it is, it just won't do what you want.
2014-10-09T18:12:05Z stacksmith: pjb, thank you.  I realize the issues now...
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2014-10-09T18:13:07Z pjb: ok
2014-10-09T18:13:07Z pjb:  
2014-10-09T18:14:15Z pjb: I just wanted to mention the environment, since it hasn't been yet.
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2014-10-09T18:16:31Z jasom: eval, why u no take enviroment?
2014-10-09T18:16:45Z pjb: In scheme it does.
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2014-10-09T18:16:56Z jasom: Now just imagine it in the Impact font with a funny picture.
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2014-10-09T18:17:52Z Xach: http://imgur.com/r2G4LZO <-- made with lisp
2014-10-09T18:17:58Z pjb: But the problem in scheme, is to get hold of environments.  There are a few r5rs primitive to obtain environments, but only one is not optional.
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2014-10-09T18:18:39Z shka: Xach: hahaha
2014-10-09T18:18:40Z Xach: (that is jasom's funny picture)
2014-10-09T18:18:41Z shka: i love this
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2014-10-09T18:19:27Z Xach: i am a little sad not to own the website behind it any more.
2014-10-09T18:19:32Z Xach: time to make a new website, i guess!
2014-10-09T18:19:38Z pjb: Think about the money you got from it!
2014-10-09T18:20:01Z Xach: oh yeah!
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2014-10-09T18:20:03Z Xach happy again
2014-10-09T18:20:17Z pjb: Money, the often forgotten token.
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2014-10-09T18:32:20Z pjb: drmeister: you can (and should) use git clone:  your_src_dir="$(pwd)" ; cd .. ; git clone "$your_src_dir" "${your_src_dir}-bis" ; cd "${your_src_dir}-bis" ; git checkout "$alt_branch" ; …
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2014-10-09T18:34:04Z jasom: Xach: what website was it?
2014-10-09T18:34:55Z Xach: jasom: wigflip.com
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2014-10-09T18:37:10Z theseb: This nugget in #scheme came up... i'm not saying i agree but i thought of ONE *possible* advantage of XML over sexprs......with sexprs you don't know which closing quote goes with what list.....with XML you do know since closing goo is labelled..e.g. </address> or </age> , etc.
2014-10-09T18:37:32Z theseb: that is the *only* reason i can see the sexprs wanted to get reinvented as XML
2014-10-09T18:37:51Z theseb: fwiw
2014-10-09T18:37:53Z jasom: theseb: and editors have come up with several solutions to that anyway
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2014-10-09T18:38:45Z stacksmith: The fact that any closing paren matches the nearest open paren is a wonderful thing.
2014-10-09T18:38:48Z Bicyclidine: show-paren-mode is great even for someone too dumb for paredit, like me
2014-10-09T18:39:19Z theseb: stacksmith: huh?
2014-10-09T18:39:32Z theseb: stacksmith: oh...i think i get it
2014-10-09T18:39:53Z theseb: stacksmith: i'm not saying i *like* XML...just trying to understand
2014-10-09T18:40:25Z stacksmith: theseb, what is not clear? Parentheses are self matching, and worrying about it is a sure sign of a mental weakness.
2014-10-09T18:41:56Z stacksmith: theseb, I don't mean to imply that you like XML.  Don't mean to shoot the messenger :)
2014-10-09T18:42:28Z stacksmith: Well, mental weakness or lack of experience with things like Lisp anyway.
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2014-10-09T18:43:15Z stacksmith: As you either have a matching open/close parens - who cares which goes with which - or an error.
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2014-10-09T18:44:03Z theseb: stacksmith: XML doesn't know if it wants to be human readable or is just made for machines to read......sure....if only computers will "see" sepxrs or XML then it doesn't matter what you chose
2014-10-09T18:44:26Z theseb: stacksmith: my focus was which is more human readable...
2014-10-09T18:45:29Z pjb: Krystof: just learn German!
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2014-10-09T18:46:00Z stacksmith: theseb - the Lisp way is infinitely better.  Otherwise, you wind up tangled up in closing tags.  Or have to automate it anyway.
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2014-10-09T18:47:05Z theseb: stacksmith: JSON is closer to the Lisp way....my impression is the XML guys thought they screwed up so then JSON had to "reinvent" sexprs all over again
2014-10-09T18:47:26Z p_l: nope
2014-10-09T18:47:29Z theseb: maybe in 3 years sexprs will get invented yet again
2014-10-09T18:47:30Z jasom: naming the closing tags makes some sense when you allow overlapping tags (I think SGML allowed that?)
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2014-10-09T18:47:59Z p_l: XML is a wholly different beast and has different use scope than JSON
2014-10-09T18:48:03Z p_l: (or Sexpr)
2014-10-09T18:48:26Z p_l: closing tags make sense when you have big chunks of data compared to markup
2014-10-09T18:48:27Z pjb: drmeister: "<15:17:52><Xach> C? Lisp Adds Superior Plusplus" is a good idea: add a "p": CLASPP.
2014-10-09T18:48:37Z pjb: drmeister: (perhaps it's too late).
2014-10-09T18:49:28Z pjb: drmeister: "<15:26:19><wasamasa> Can Lisp Achieve Super Powers?" in CL, predicates are denoted with "P" (or "-P"), so again, claspp :-)
2014-10-09T18:50:03Z stacksmith: p_l, I'll give you that point.
2014-10-09T18:50:12Z pjb: minion: memo for protist: you can make commercial products with GPL code.  Only you must keep distributing the code of your commercial products!
2014-10-09T18:50:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell protist when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-10-09T18:50:32Z p_l: stacksmith: a big problem is that a lot of *users* of XML misuse or mis-implement it, because it was trendy etc.
2014-10-09T18:50:37Z Xach: pjb is approaching the present. don't slow him down, maybe he can reply to future messages soon.
2014-10-09T18:50:43Z pjb: :-)
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2014-10-09T18:51:18Z theseb: p_l: say that's an interesting observation....yes....XML looks the most painful when it is used for tiny fields of text
2014-10-09T18:51:22Z stacksmith: p_l, though you could just have a comment after the closing element, since it does not matter syntactically.
2014-10-09T18:51:51Z stacksmith: p_l, or have the editor mark it for you in the ui somehow.
2014-10-09T18:52:28Z stacksmith: it is always a bad idea to confuse human convenience with necessary syntax.
2014-10-09T18:53:07Z theseb: stacksmith: in principle, you could make the following hot keys in emacs.....one to convert XML to sexprs and another to go the other way....that way you could always have whatever you want and everyone wins!
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2014-10-09T18:53:24Z wasamasa: pjb: oh right
2014-10-09T18:53:30Z theseb: stacksmith: for sane file sizes it would only take a few seconds at that
2014-10-09T18:54:02Z stacksmith: theseb, true enough.
2014-10-09T18:55:39Z p_l: theseb: you'd need to handle namespaces, though
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2014-10-09T18:56:06Z p_l: an important bit that is often broken in XML-using apps is namespaces
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2014-10-09T18:58:19Z pjb: stacksmith: you could disable reading : in symbols, by adding a reader macro on all the consituent symbols, and also on #\\ and #\|, and if you want to disable keywords, on all the other characters too.
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2014-10-09T18:59:07Z pjb: stacksmith: it would be simplier to write your own parser, (and perhaps embed it with an introducing reader macro: [ this:is:not:a:qualified:symbol neither-is:this ].
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2014-10-09T19:03:20Z jasom: huh, add abcl on this to possibilities for lisp on phones: http://www.robovm.com/
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2014-10-09T19:03:36Z pjb: stacksmith: reader macros should only be considered when you need to embed the alien syntax into lisp program (ie. when you have a need for it at compilation-time, or in the REPL).
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2014-10-09T19:04:12Z pjb: yes
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2014-10-09T19:11:29Z cheater: hi
2014-10-09T19:11:44Z cheater: can someone tell me what this syntax means? (cond ((=count 0) b)
2014-10-09T19:12:23Z pjb: cheater: perhaps you'd want to read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm
2014-10-09T19:12:32Z pjb: clhs cond
2014-10-09T19:12:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2014-10-09T19:12:49Z pjb: Xach: I failed at answering a future question.
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2014-10-09T19:13:02Z cheater: thanks
2014-10-09T19:13:04Z ggole: Note that (=count 0) and (= count 0) aren't the same
2014-10-09T19:13:13Z cheater: ggole: what is the difference?
2014-10-09T19:13:15Z pjb: Xach: well, perhaps not. Yes is indeed the correct answer to cheater's.
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2014-10-09T19:13:44Z stacksmith: =count is different from =
2014-10-09T19:13:49Z pjb: (length '(=count 0)) --> 2 (length '(= count 0)) --> 3
2014-10-09T19:13:51Z ggole: In lisp, =count is a valid name.
2014-10-09T19:14:02Z pjb: (car '(=count 0)) --> =count  (car '(= count 0)) --> =
2014-10-09T19:14:19Z cheater: so what does =count mean here?
2014-10-09T19:14:26Z pjb: AFAWK nothing.
2014-10-09T19:14:41Z cheater: i'm trying to understand the last code block here: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/chapter1/node15.html
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2014-10-09T19:14:50Z pjb: If there's no function named =count defined, then it will signal an error.
2014-10-09T19:15:02Z ggole: Glorking from context, it's almost certainly intended to be (= count 0), which just returns whether count is numerically equal to zero.
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2014-10-09T19:15:06Z pjb: cheater: this is clearly a typo.
2014-10-09T19:15:12Z cheater: yeah i was just going to ask
2014-10-09T19:15:20Z cheater: is cond like haskell's guards?
2014-10-09T19:15:39Z pjb: In Common Lisp, there's (zerop count) to avoid this kind of typo…
2014-10-09T19:15:46Z ggole: Closer to Haskell's if, really
2014-10-09T19:15:52Z ggole: But yes, similar.
2014-10-09T19:16:03Z shka: eeeh, haskell
2014-10-09T19:16:06Z shka: i want to learn it
2014-10-09T19:16:08Z ggole: Try a few in the repl and see for yourself.
2014-10-09T19:16:10Z stacksmith: It's a monadic bastion of conditional perpetuity :)
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2014-10-09T19:16:22Z pjb: cheater: now of course, since you're working with scheme 1- you should ask in #scheme instaed of #lisp, 2- you should read r5rs instead of clhs.
2014-10-09T19:16:48Z pjb: cheater: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
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2014-10-09T19:18:00Z drmeister: splittist: Re:    "so one could add something like . def("dvref",&DoubleVector::operator[]) to the package 'declaration'?"
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2014-10-09T19:18:12Z ThomasH: Greetings lispers!
2014-10-09T19:18:12Z drmeister: splittist: Yes, that is correct.
2014-10-09T19:18:35Z stacksmith: ThomasH, obligatory hello.
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2014-10-09T19:18:50Z ThomasH gives an obligatory nod to stacksmith 
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2014-10-09T19:19:36Z drmeister: beach: Yes, I saw your response re: LLVM-IR.  I'll chat tonight if we are on at the same time.
2014-10-09T19:19:36Z cheater: shka: you might find codewars.com fun
2014-10-09T19:19:40Z cheater: haskell is really fun
2014-10-09T19:20:05Z cheater: pjb: i just didn't know what "=count" would have meant, but you pointed out it might've been a typo, everything makes sense now
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2014-10-09T19:20:10Z cheater: i didn't even know it was scheme
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2014-10-09T19:22:40Z cheater: pjb: oh, you figured it was scheme because this is the sicp course? ok.
2014-10-09T19:22:53Z Grue`: never ascribe to intent that which is adequately explained by a typo
2014-10-09T19:23:50Z cheater: i didn't even realize it might've been a typo
2014-10-09T19:23:57Z cheater: until someone lead me onto it here
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2014-10-09T19:25:40Z pjb: cheater: the main hint, is define = scheme, defun = common lisp (or emacs lisp).
2014-10-09T19:26:11Z pjb: but in this specific case, indeed sicp uses mit scheme.
2014-10-09T19:26:29Z cheater: ok
2014-10-09T19:26:40Z Grue`: how did you solve all the previous exercises if you a) didn't know it was scheme b) didn't recognize that this was a typo
2014-10-09T19:26:43Z cheater: i didn't realize
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2014-10-09T19:26:48Z drmeister: pjb: What was this in regards to?  "drmeister: you can (and should) use git clone:  your_src_dir="$(pwd)" ; cd .. ; git clone "$your_src_dir" "${your_src_dir}-bis" ; cd "${your_src_dir}-bis" ; git checkout "$alt_branch" ; …"
2014-10-09T19:27:03Z cheater: i'm not only interested in computer languages, and it's funny..
2014-10-09T19:27:06Z Xach: drmeister: probably something in the distant past. pjb likes to reply hours late.
2014-10-09T19:27:19Z cheater: once you know one balkan language you can do them all
2014-10-09T19:27:24Z pjb: drmeister:  "<07:21:39><drmeister> How careful do I need to be when using git?  Let's say I'm in the devel branch and everything is committed and I'm compiling my entire source tree."
2014-10-09T19:27:28Z cheater: to some degree of brokenness
2014-10-09T19:27:31Z cheater: same with lisp
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2014-10-09T19:27:48Z cheater: and c-likes (python, javascript, _ )
2014-10-09T19:28:32Z pjb: closeness of syntax can be treacherous.
2014-10-09T19:28:55Z cheater: yeah. you still get the important points usually though.
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2014-10-09T19:32:21Z drmeister: pjb: You clone an entire repo again?
2014-10-09T19:32:49Z drmeister: I suppose that would work.   Those bits on my hard drive aren't getting any younger.
2014-10-09T19:33:42Z dlowe: cloning uses hard links
2014-10-09T19:34:04Z dlowe: at least for the repo part, so only the working directory will increase your disk usage
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2014-10-09T20:33:23Z pjb: drmeister: yes, if you want to work with different branches at the same time (eg. compile one branch, while editing another), you need to clone two working directories.
2014-10-09T20:34:56Z pjb: dlowe: indeed, the files in .git are hard linked; I didn't know that; it's a good thing.
2014-10-09T20:36:35Z pjb: drmeister: now, you may actually want to clone from the common remote repository, and then push from one directory and pull from the other to update (and perhaps merge).  cloning the local repo is nice when you don't have connectivity to the remote repo.
2014-10-09T20:36:50Z pjb: And also it's nice when you don't want your branches to be pushed to a remote public repo.
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2014-10-09T22:39:51Z nowhere_man: hi all
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2014-10-09T22:40:35Z nowhere_man: I recently upgraded my emacs to v24 and M-p and M-n stopped working in the REPL
2014-10-09T22:40:49Z nowhere_man: (although calling the associated functions by hand works)
2014-10-09T22:41:07Z nowhere_man: I'm wondering if that's a known issue
2014-10-09T22:41:28Z nowhere_man: and if it makes sense to reassociate them in my .emacs
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2014-10-09T22:58:04Z wglb: nowhere_man: Those actually haven't worked for me for some time. M-p gets "unmatched parens". But I haven't really examined what is going on there
2014-10-09T22:58:20Z nowhere_man: wglb: thanks for the notice
2014-10-09T22:58:56Z wglb: And since M-p doesn't work, I didn't even try M-n. Not much help to you, I am afraid.
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