2014-10-08T00:00:39Z nyef: We do things every day which would be unthinkable to the researchers of half a century ago, but a great many of their goals still haven't been achieved.
2014-10-08T00:01:52Z Zhivago: Many of their goals turned out to be wrong.
2014-10-08T00:02:04Z Zhivago: Many of our goals will probably do likewise.
2014-10-08T00:02:10Z nyef: True enough.
2014-10-08T00:03:07Z nyef: But we're only now getting things like "Siri" or the Microsoft equivalent, and they're incredibly limited.
2014-10-08T00:03:33Z Zhivago: Well, statistical AI is still in its infancy.
2014-10-08T00:03:59Z Zhivago: And those are basically chatbots welded to search engines.
2014-10-08T00:04:10Z nyef: And the versions that we're getting are basically tied to mobile phones, not the awesomely powerful laptop/desktop computers that we use on a daily basis.
2014-10-08T00:04:23Z nyef: Right.
2014-10-08T00:04:26Z Zhivago: Hey, my phone is awesomely powerful.
2014-10-08T00:04:33Z nyef: For a PHONE, yes.
2014-10-08T00:04:47Z Zhivago: It's like a high end unix workstation from back when I used those. :)
2014-10-08T00:05:04Z nyef: Would your main computer out-compute it with one CPU pipeline tied behind its back or not?
2014-10-08T00:05:18Z Zhivago: Of course, these days I just run bunch of virtual unix workstations.
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2014-10-08T00:05:34Z drmeister: I'm upgrading to an iphone6 tomorrow.
2014-10-08T00:05:44Z drmeister: I think I might finally be happy.
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2014-10-08T00:06:09Z nyef: I'm upgrading to a tablet that could replace my desktop (assuming that I still used a desktop) in about three and a half months.
2014-10-08T00:06:18Z Zhivago: That extra 10% length is really a killer feature. :)
2014-10-08T00:06:26Z nyef: It has very little to do with my happiness.
2014-10-08T00:06:38Z drmeister: So what's ASDF good for?   Now that I can ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM - can I REQUIRE the built systems or do I have to do something else?
2014-10-08T00:06:56Z nyef: drmeister: There's a separate thing for a REQUIRE hook.
2014-10-08T00:07:15Z nyef: And the REQUIRE hook doesn't require (hah!) that the systems already be built.
2014-10-08T00:07:41Z ack006: nyef: at least you can run maxima (and its lisp ;-) ) on an android phone, yay!
2014-10-08T00:07:44Z nyef: drmeister: Really, your next challenge is to get quicklisp going. d-:
2014-10-08T00:08:32Z drmeister: Seriously?  Does maxima run on android phones?
2014-10-08T00:08:35Z nyef: ack006: I can run SBCL on an android phone if I'm willing to root my phone. And I was the first to run SBCL on an android device at all (I rooted my tablet ages back).
2014-10-08T00:08:49Z ack006: nyef: cool!
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2014-10-08T00:09:10Z nyef: Sure, it wasn't the full SBCL, but it was well before anyone else was willing to even try to run it.
2014-10-08T00:09:12Z ack006: given that someone also ported emacs, guess you one can use slime as well ;-)
2014-10-08T00:09:27Z nyef: (Hint: Debian chroot.)
2014-10-08T00:09:38Z ack006: :-)
2014-10-08T00:09:44Z ack006: maxima on android: https://sites.google.com/site/maximaonandroid/
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2014-10-08T00:10:18Z ack006: i use it (and it starts quicker on my phone than on my desktop hihi)
2014-10-08T00:10:41Z nyef: ... Dropbox is supported? Yet more evidence that I need to start digging into how to work with Dropbox. /-:
2014-10-08T00:10:51Z drmeister: ack006: Cool,  take that eff-ing Wolfram language!
2014-10-08T00:11:07Z ack006: drmeister: :-)
2014-10-08T00:11:13Z pjb: nyef: or rather, with ownCloud!
2014-10-08T00:11:37Z pjb: If you use DropBox, you can as well directly send your backups to the NSA.
2014-10-08T00:11:45Z ack006: is that a lisp (machine, i hope soon) in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
2014-10-08T00:12:19Z ack006: let's get open genera running on android, yay!
2014-10-08T00:12:31Z ack006: with multitouch support please.
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2014-10-08T00:12:44Z nyef: Meh. Not my choice to use DropBox. But if I can get the DropBox integration going on the one side and the XLS parsing going on the other side then I can deal myself out of the loop for a critical business process at work.
2014-10-08T00:13:27Z pjb: As long as you use the money to further the promotion of Common Lisp :-)
2014-10-08T00:13:40Z nyef: ack006: I could probably get a TI Explorer system running on Android, but the display resolution would be hard to match on Android.
2014-10-08T00:14:04Z ack006: nyef: make a screencast when you do :-)
2014-10-08T00:14:08Z pjb: 1920x1080?
2014-10-08T00:14:36Z ack006: the newer phablets are getting close to that
2014-10-08T00:14:39Z nyef: 1920x1080? What? My highest-resolution Android device is 1280x800.
2014-10-08T00:15:04Z pjb: That's what I have in Samsung Galaxy s4.
2014-10-08T00:15:25Z pjb: Only iPhone6plus can match it.
2014-10-08T00:15:28Z pjb: (at least).
2014-10-08T00:15:29Z oGMo: ack006: getting close to? heh
2014-10-08T00:15:42Z oGMo: note3 was 1080p and note4 will be a lot
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2014-10-08T00:15:54Z ack006: :-)
2014-10-08T00:15:57Z nyef: I have the original note10.1 wifi edition.
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2014-10-08T00:16:10Z nyef: And a galaxy nexus.
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2014-10-08T00:16:25Z nyef: And I'm not particularly inclined to spend more on an android platform at this point.
2014-10-08T00:16:47Z nyef: ack006: http://unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Nevermore should be a good starting point, I expect.
2014-10-08T00:16:49Z oGMo: not if you don't need to .. so you're working on getting sbcl there?
2014-10-08T00:16:56Z Zhivago: The nice thing about android is that you can run linux on it at the same time as android.
2014-10-08T00:17:09Z ack006: nyef: thanks :-)
2014-10-08T00:17:34Z oGMo: Zhivago: you'd have a hard time not doing so :P
2014-10-08T00:17:52Z oGMo: maybe if you have a blackberry .. heh
2014-10-08T00:18:26Z oGMo: sbcl seems to run decently on arm now though, so
2014-10-08T00:18:38Z ack006: i introduced a friend of mine (an old time lisp hacker) to the demo scene recently where lots of people are rebuilding or emulating old hardware, maybe (+ 1 1) could happen :-)
2014-10-08T00:19:01Z nyef: oGMo: You're welcome. Getting it running on ARM was a royal pain, what with only having 15 GPRs to work with.
2014-10-08T00:19:20Z oGMo: nyef: only? doesn't it run on x86? :P
2014-10-08T00:19:41Z nyef: The x86 (and x86-64) ports use a "conservative" GC.
2014-10-08T00:19:54Z nyef: For ARM I went the route of split stacks and a partitioned register set.
2014-10-08T00:19:58Z oGMo: ah the arm one uses the precise GC? nice
2014-10-08T00:20:00Z ack006: he liked a *lot* the adventurous spirit of these 'younglings', and enjoyed talking with them about the hardware (PDP-s, IBMs, etc) he had worked on
2014-10-08T00:21:03Z nyef: stassats did quite a bit of the work once I started slogging through !COLD-INIT, and IIRC he ported it to GENC^HGC from CHENEYGC.
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2014-10-08T00:22:24Z nyef: I noticed quite a while ago that my most successful CPU simulation projects all start as disassemblers.
2014-10-08T00:22:51Z ack006: nyef: very good start, getting to know the instruction patterns, etc.
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2014-10-08T00:23:24Z nyef: ack006: Yes and no. It starts by disassembling a blob of code and then setting out to simulate it an instruction at a time.
2014-10-08T00:24:33Z ack006: nyef: qemu has an interesting tool to help port coreboot where they cosimulate code while running it on real hardware
2014-10-08T00:24:58Z ack006: they probably test too that way, see if and when the simulation and the real thing diverge.. :-)
2014-10-08T00:25:25Z nyef: Nevermore started out as the third attempt at a disassembler for Raven microcode. Its predecessor, exploiter, started with a memory-dump and disassembler utility for Explorer macrocode.
2014-10-08T00:25:42Z ack006: interesting
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2014-10-08T00:27:26Z nyef: DarcNES (and this is going back to the mid-to-late-90s) started off as a 6502 disassembler that then spawned a CPU simulator, a 6280 disassembler and simulator, a NES PPU simulator, an MMC1 and MMC3 simulator, a... well, you get the idea.
2014-10-08T00:27:31Z nyef: It got a bit out of control.
2014-10-08T00:27:52Z ack006: nyef: understatement ;-)
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2014-10-08T00:28:22Z nyef: One of the reasons I've never tried writing a Java bytecode disassembler is that I'd probably end up reimplementing CLOAK.
2014-10-08T00:29:35Z ack006: nyef: :-)
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2014-10-08T00:30:30Z nyef: I shudder to think what might happen if I tried to write a DNA disassemblre.
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2014-10-08T00:30:54Z ack006: haha! :-)
2014-10-08T00:31:37Z oGMo: first you'd need an instruction set reference
2014-10-08T00:31:38Z ack006: nyef: don't sell it to m'$oft, or we'll all become borg! :-D
2014-10-08T00:31:40Z Bike: if you do figure out protein folding, remember to share.
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2014-10-08T00:32:17Z ack006: embrace, extend, assimilate grrr
2014-10-08T00:32:22Z nyef: oGMo: Doesn't that already exist? Aren't the instructions all three-dibit sequences?
2014-10-08T00:34:34Z Bike: that gives you the codons, but you also need to know operons, post-translational modification markers, bla bla bla.
2014-10-08T00:34:34Z oGMo: nyef: last i heard, no one really has much of an idea how any of it works .. and that seems like "aren't instructions made of bytes" or similar really
2014-10-08T00:34:35Z Bike: yeah, codons are more like a character encoding than instructions.
2014-10-08T00:34:35Z oGMo: it would probably be easier to try disassembling physics, because a lot of that is at least documented/theorized
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2014-10-08T00:34:35Z nyef: oGMo: It's more a description of the encoding space than an instruction set, yes.
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2014-10-08T00:35:40Z nyef: H4ns: Do I recall correctly that you were interested in building a VHDL model for one of the LispMs? Did you ever get anywhere with that?
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2014-10-08T00:44:01Z nyef: pjb: I find it interesting that the FLPL paper that you reference claims an improvement in execution time between interpreted and compiled code of only five times.
2014-10-08T00:44:53Z pjb: Hey! It was in FORTRAN, the first compiler ever.
2014-10-08T00:45:02Z nyef: True.
2014-10-08T00:45:54Z nyef: But still, either the compilers were terrible, the interpreters were awesome, or the computer architectures were better suited to hand-coded functions than to compiled code.
2014-10-08T00:45:57Z nyef: Or all three.
2014-10-08T00:46:08Z nyef: Probably all three. (-:
2014-10-08T00:47:30Z pjb: Yes, those architectures were definitely designed to be programmed in assembler by hand.
2014-10-08T00:48:13Z nyef: Ah, the good old days.
2014-10-08T00:49:06Z pjb: The extreme being autocoder, where basically, the textual representation was binary code. (the autocoder program just computed and substituted addresses for symbols).
2014-10-08T00:50:00Z pjb: scratch that, I'm mixing stuff.
2014-10-08T00:50:08Z pjb: autocoder was an assembler.
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2014-10-08T00:54:35Z Adlai: DNA is an excellent example of treating code as data
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2014-10-08T00:55:31Z Bike: proteases, rRNA etc. might be better, really.
2014-10-08T00:55:33Z nyef: No, it's an excellent example of treating data as code.
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2014-10-08T00:55:46Z Bike: heh, yes.
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2014-10-08T00:58:36Z ack006: hmmmm, http://www.kev.pulo.com.au/xlibtrace/
2014-10-08T00:58:53Z ack006: might be useful for sorting out the problems with snap4 genera
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2014-10-08T01:17:17Z ack006: yuck, xlibtrace doesn't compile (even after fixing the obvious isarray error) b/c of an implicit declaration. the error message looks very similar to an eleventy gabazillion times expanded macro in a lisp debugger stack frame hihi
2014-10-08T01:21:32Z ack006: in fact the problem _is_ with a macro (a c preprocessor one).
2014-10-08T01:21:48Z ack006: if only they had written the thing in lisp ;-)
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2014-10-08T01:23:26Z ack006: look at this and y'will understand http://pastie.org/9629969
2014-10-08T01:23:39Z ack006: cpp macros all the way down buddy
2014-10-08T01:26:26Z nyef: ack006: It would not surprise me to find that I've written worse.
2014-10-08T01:26:50Z ack006: given the names of these things, i'm getting a strong feeling that this code was written in lisp and then (hand?-)translated to c
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2014-10-08T01:28:11Z ack006: __TRACE_RUN_UNDERLYING_STYLE__, etc., etc.,
2014-10-08T01:28:48Z ack006: very few c coders i know use these verbose names
2014-10-08T01:29:19Z nyef: That's because C historically didn't guarantee many characters of identifier significance.
2014-10-08T01:30:36Z ack006: nyef: true :-)
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2014-10-08T01:43:19Z drmeister: I've been searching the ASDF manual for about 15 minutes - how do I set up REQUIRE to load the systems that I build with ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM
2014-10-08T01:44:25Z nyef: drmeister: http://www.sbcl.org/1.0/manual/Customization-Hooks-for-Users.html might be a bit of a start for that.
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2014-10-08T01:45:37Z drmeister: So it's not a standard part of ASDF?
2014-10-08T01:46:28Z nyef: I think that if you find where ASDF ties into that mechanism, you'll find the appropriate place to figure out what's involved in providing a compatible mechanism.
2014-10-08T01:46:39Z nyef: It may-or-may-not require an ASDF revision as well to match.
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2014-10-08T01:48:49Z drmeister: Ah, you are saying that Clasp doesn't hook into ASDF properly - got it.
2014-10-08T01:49:01Z nyef: Yeah, looks like it's conditional on abcl, clisp, clozure, cmu, ecl, mkcl, and sbcl.
2014-10-08T01:49:13Z nyef: On the other hand, clasp is an ecl variant, isn't it?
2014-10-08T01:49:28Z nyef: Are you doing anything with ext:*module-provider-functions* ?
2014-10-08T01:49:42Z drmeister: I have ext:*module-provider-functions*
2014-10-08T01:50:37Z nyef: Then ASDF should hook into it given a suitable *FEATURES* value. Or you can grab asdf/operate:module-provide-asdf as a suitable function.
2014-10-08T01:54:08Z ack006: got xlibtrace to compile, it looks very interesting indeed, as it ships with old (2009) xlib definitions. now let's go run it on genera :-)
2014-10-08T01:54:58Z ack006: tested it with small x utilities, it works :)
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2014-10-08T01:58:49Z drmeister: But the idea is once I run (asdf:load-system :XXX) thereafter I should be able to (require 'XXX) and it will be loaded?   Or does the first (require :XXX) automatically build the system?
2014-10-08T01:59:08Z nyef: The latter.
2014-10-08T01:59:56Z nyef: Quickload doesn't tie into this, though, so it'd be a case of the former
2014-10-08T02:00:58Z drmeister: I guess the question is more: "what can I expect ASDF to do".   I run things in SBCL but it's very streamlined and I don't know what SBCL is providing and what ASDF is providing.
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2014-10-08T02:01:30Z Bike: i don't think sbcl provides anything special for system organization. most of the contribs are even in asds, aren't they?
2014-10-08T02:01:32Z drmeister: I guess I'm looking for a checklist:  If your ASDF support is complete then you should be able to do ...
2014-10-08T02:02:17Z nyef: Bike: There's a hook for REQUIRE that ASDF uses.
2014-10-08T02:02:23Z drmeister: Ok, but if ASDF is installed then  (REQUIRE :alexandria)  should build it and load it.   And if it was already built then just load it.
2014-10-08T02:02:24Z Bike: well, other than that.
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2014-10-08T02:02:47Z nyef: drmeister: Right.
2014-10-08T02:02:50Z Bike: i mean, sbcl's not even doing anything there but translating (require foo) into (asdf:whatever foo) in some circumstances
2014-10-08T02:03:35Z drmeister: Ah, now I get it... Now it's clear... The scales have fallen from my eyes...  I was blind but now I see!
2014-10-08T02:03:48Z drmeister: Hooks - gotta find the hooks.
2014-10-08T02:03:56Z nyef: Bike: Not even that. It's more (SOME SB-EXT:*MODULE-PROVIDER-FUNCTIONS* FOO).
2014-10-08T02:04:12Z drmeister: Holy crap - or I should just try it.
2014-10-08T02:04:12Z Bike: i don't think most asdf users actually use require
2014-10-08T02:04:16Z drmeister: It's working.
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2014-10-08T02:04:38Z drmeister: Bike: What do they use?  Direct thought transference?
2014-10-08T02:04:42Z nyef: drmeister: As I said, clasp is an ecl derivative and has ext:*module-provider-hooks* doesn't it?
2014-10-08T02:04:49Z Bike: drmeister: asdf:whatever or quicklisp
2014-10-08T02:04:59Z Bike: (i use quicklisp, so i don't remember the asdf invocations)
2014-10-08T02:05:13Z drmeister: Oh - right quicklisp. Yes.
2014-10-08T02:05:13Z nyef: I use quicklisp, and don't even remember the syntax for ASDF, but I also don't use ASDF for my own stuff.
2014-10-08T02:05:32Z Bike: it's probably just (asdf:load-system whatever), though
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2014-10-08T02:06:16Z nyef: drmeister: So, did you manage to follow through on Xach's challenge to get deflate working?
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2014-10-08T02:07:02Z drmeister: I didn't try it. I think my compiler is too slow.  Let me give it a whirl.
2014-10-08T02:07:30Z nyef: ... Do you also have a sockets implementation?
2014-10-08T02:07:45Z nyef: If so, it might be time to give a full quicklisp install a try.
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2014-10-08T02:13:46Z drmeister: Yeah, I have a sockets implementation.
2014-10-08T02:14:12Z drmeister: I'm not sure how complete it is though.
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2014-10-08T02:14:38Z drmeister: I mimicked SBCL sockets and I implemented serve-event.
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2014-10-08T02:28:07Z ack006: ...aand of course we go down the same rabbit hole again, genera doesn't want to look at the clock
2014-10-08T02:29:09Z ack006: keeps pinging rdate, then types out the dreaded question at ~2400baud modem speed, only way to get out is to type in some nonsense and abort out of the debugger. lather, rinse, repeat
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2014-10-08T02:30:29Z ack006: but since i've re-configured my network bridge, tap driver, routing table, xinetd configuration, firewall, whatnot a zillion times without making too many notes, it's very difficult to find out what went where.
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2014-10-08T02:59:20Z ynniv: It’s useful to configure a vm for this, because you can start from scratch and try new things.
2014-10-08T03:00:54Z ack006: ynniv: guess so, since then i can slowly build up from something which is known working towards something which doesn't require a ton of tweaks, a complete network topology overhaul, poking holes in the firewall, fighting systemd-networkd, etc.
2014-10-08T03:01:02Z brucem: ynniv: and script the whole configuration so you can diff them and bisect them and so on.
2014-10-08T03:01:24Z ynniv: if only someone put something like this on github
2014-10-08T03:02:00Z ack006: ynniv: i really thought this would be a lot easier than it is. i'm no newbie wrt network setup, device driver debugging, etc, but this app is doing a lot more than meets the eye, literally
2014-10-08T03:03:00Z ack006: setting up a 'tun0' device which is actually a tap, calling out to /sbin/ifconfig (deprecated in arch, and doesn't live in /sbin anyway), etc. etc.
2014-10-08T03:03:02Z ynniv: yeah, it’s a crazy tangle. I think my “make && vagrant up” package makes it look way too approachable
2014-10-08T03:03:43Z ynniv: I had some insider tips that made it work
2014-10-08T03:03:58Z ack006: this is the very reason i hate black boxes (unless they have 'NeXT' printed on them!) and why i love lisp
2014-10-08T03:04:39Z ack006: a real lisp is hackable all the way down, sourceless binaries s*ck
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2014-10-08T03:05:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-10-08T03:05:27Z ack006: but i don't blame the author of 'snap4' i'm very grateful he made this available at all. else we wouldn't be having this talk
2014-10-08T03:06:09Z ynniv: OG isn’t in a practical state. Getting it running is only useful for historical preservation.
2014-10-08T03:07:19Z ack006: which is important enough in its own right, else the youngsters will think that ms visual studio 20blah or eclipse are the only game in town
2014-10-08T03:07:58Z ynniv: Even if you could make it run reliably, the ownership is such a mess that you could never use it for anything.
2014-10-08T03:08:01Z ack006: they will realize that all of the stuff that makes $$ these days has been done before, and often way better
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2014-10-08T03:08:56Z ack006: i know, but by studying it people could at least get insights into how they can implement certain ideas with todays tech
2014-10-08T03:09:49Z ynniv: Right, which has been my goal. Have you looked over any of the docs at http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/symbolics/ ?
2014-10-08T03:09:51Z ack006: look at how far the factor language / ide has come, probably the closest approximation to what OG could do.
2014-10-08T03:10:05Z ack006: some of them, yes.
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2014-10-08T03:11:08Z ack006: perhaps it is better in a way that genera isn't quite as accessible for ip rights reasons, i'm not looking forward to another sco / bsd lawsuit hampering progress
2014-10-08T03:12:28Z ynniv: I still want to make it turnkey for those who are in a place to use it. I’ve been told that anyone associated with MIT has a license from an old deal.
2014-10-08T03:12:37Z ack006: and yes, i've read the (very entertaining) irc log about the history of symbolics ip after it folded
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2014-10-08T03:14:19Z Oddity: I want to read it
2014-10-08T03:14:46Z ack006: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2012-05/lisp-2012.05.11.txt
2014-10-08T03:14:50Z nyef: beach: Good evening.
2014-10-08T03:14:54Z ack006: there you go :-) enjoy
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2014-10-08T03:15:54Z nyef: beach: Looks like drmeister might have ASDF completely up and going. I've been trying to talk him into tackling quicklisp next.
2014-10-08T03:16:37Z beach: nyef: Yeah, I saw it in the logs.  That's great!
2014-10-08T03:17:23Z nyef: Now he just needs a decent compiler and an unencumbered runtime.
2014-10-08T03:17:46Z beach: nyef: Putting pressure on me? :)
2014-10-08T03:17:58Z nyef: Would I do something like that? (-:
2014-10-08T03:18:19Z beach: Nah, guess not.
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2014-10-08T03:18:36Z nyef: ... Speaking of, what happened to your list of LispOS-related projects?
2014-10-08T03:18:42Z nyef: Last I remember the link went 404.
2014-10-08T03:18:49Z nyef: And that was something like a couple years ago.
2014-10-08T03:18:51Z beach: It should still be there.
2014-10-08T03:18:56Z beach: Let me check...
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2014-10-08T03:19:10Z nyef: It could be that it ended up moving without a forwarder or something.
2014-10-08T03:20:38Z ynniv: “unencumbered runtime”?
2014-10-08T03:21:03Z Bike: currently he allocates stack frames on the heap. it's pretty slow.
2014-10-08T03:21:37Z nyef: ynniv: It's restricted by the LGPL or thereabouts.
2014-10-08T03:21:55Z ynniv: because of ecl I think?
2014-10-08T03:22:01Z nyef: Yes, because of ECL.
2014-10-08T03:22:10Z Bike: oh, sorry
2014-10-08T03:22:35Z nyef: Just think, if he'd used Advanced High-speed CMOS instead of Emitter-Coupled Logic, it wouldn't be nearly this bad...
2014-10-08T03:22:40Z beach: nyef: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/index.html
2014-10-08T03:22:53Z nyef: beach: Thank you.
2014-10-08T03:23:11Z beach: nyef: I started updating it.  I can't remember how far I got.
2014-10-08T03:23:21Z nyef: And I'm aware that my side is down, and has been for most of a year. /-:
2014-10-08T03:23:44Z beach: Hmm, OK.
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2014-10-08T03:24:00Z nyef: It's on my list to fix, but hasn't been a priority yet.
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2014-10-08T03:24:42Z beach: nyef: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/projects.html
2014-10-08T03:24:53Z beach: and http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2014-10-08T03:25:27Z nyef: Nice. More for me to read. (-:
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2014-10-08T03:28:21Z beach: nyef: Why is your side down?
2014-10-08T03:29:34Z nyef: It was hosted on tech.coop.
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2014-10-08T03:30:24Z nyef: I have a full backup, as the entire site was deployed via rsync in the first place, I just haven't arranged new hosting yet.
2014-10-08T03:30:38Z nyef: I was rather thinking something based on S3 this time, maybe.
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2014-10-08T03:31:01Z beach: I see.  So your entire site is down, then.
2014-10-08T03:31:19Z nyef: Yeah.
2014-10-08T03:31:27Z nyef: First noticed last December or January.
2014-10-08T03:32:51Z ynniv: neocities.org gives you 10 static megs
2014-10-08T03:34:01Z nyef: ynniv: I remember geocities. No.
2014-10-08T03:34:27Z nyef: Seriously, at this point I'd rather pay for hosting, and get something that I have decent control over, than accept a free solution.
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2014-10-08T03:36:09Z oGMo: it's pretty trivial and cheap to run a virt or few
2014-10-08T03:36:47Z ynniv: It’s more like a really low cost community funded option, and less hassle than S3
2014-10-08T03:37:00Z drmeister: (sigh) I can't do the deflate demo - I still have to add optimized arrays of integers.
2014-10-08T03:37:19Z nyef: oGMo: I know, at work we've had to have our AWS limit extended because we ran it out with the number of VMs we were using.
2014-10-08T03:37:27Z oGMo: nyef: :o
2014-10-08T03:37:32Z nyef: As I said, it just hasn't been a priority for me yet.
2014-10-08T03:38:56Z nyef: beach: As far as LispOS device drivers goes, you should be able to get a good deal done in terms of Linux user-mode USB, uinput, FUSE, and so on, even before trying to run on "bare metal".
2014-10-08T03:38:59Z drmeister: I still have to add a C++ template class to Clasp so that I can quickly add different kinds of arrays.
2014-10-08T03:39:13Z drmeister: Hi beach - I guess you heard.  ASDF is in Clasp.
2014-10-08T03:39:25Z beach: drmeister: I did, yes.  Congratulations!
2014-10-08T03:40:01Z beach: nyef: I know very little of those, but thanks for the hint.  That kind of stuff will probably come in handy.
2014-10-08T03:40:02Z drmeister: Now I can load a parser - do you recommend any?
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2014-10-08T03:40:30Z drmeister: Something to Bison/Yacc.   I've looked at CL-YACC.
2014-10-08T03:40:41Z drmeister: Something like Bison/Yacc.
2014-10-08T03:40:43Z nyef: drmeister: Perhaps simply SMUG?
2014-10-08T03:41:24Z nyef: There's that classic quote about "what I wanted to do when I first learned yacc(1)" that comes to mind.
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2014-10-08T03:43:52Z beach: nyef: I forget who pointed me to I/O kit, but I think CLOS would be awesome for writing device drivers.
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2014-10-08T03:44:59Z nyef: beach: The two main issues that I had when I was trying to figure out how to write a LispOS were arranging for certain functions and data structures to always be paged in, and arranging for the GC to be able to be written in Lisp.
2014-10-08T03:45:44Z nyef: Everything else was at least plausibly solvable. Those two were the hard problems.
2014-10-08T03:46:20Z drmeister: nyef: Is SMUG a good way to write parsers?
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2014-10-08T03:46:29Z beach: nyef: Why are those problematic.  Number 1 is standard OS stuff.  Put a "sticky" bit on the page.  Number 2 is easy if you supply functions for loading and storing a word at a particular address.
2014-10-08T03:46:52Z nyef: drmeister: I don't know, I've never tried it. drewc seems to like it, though.
2014-10-08T03:47:23Z beach: drmeister: I haven't written parsers for quite some time, but many people here talk about "esrap".
2014-10-08T03:47:29Z nyef: beach: The tricky bit is because they're both part of the lisp heap, and thus still subject to GC, for starters.
2014-10-08T03:47:56Z nyef: drmeister: I tend to end up writing a hand-coded recursive-descent parser pretty much every time I need a parser of any complexity.
2014-10-08T03:48:24Z beach: nyef: Sure, one has to be careful not to modify the GC data structures while invoking it.
2014-10-08T03:48:49Z nyef: beach: And to make sure that running code doesn't get trashed out from under itself.
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2014-10-08T03:49:12Z nyef: Plus I was working in the context of SBCL's bootstrap process.
2014-10-08T03:49:19Z beach: Oh, I see.  Yes.
2014-10-08T03:49:25Z Zhivago: If you have processes, then those should be pretty straight-forward.
2014-10-08T03:49:29Z drmeister: SMUG appears to need displaced arrays.  I don't have those either yet.
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2014-10-08T03:49:45Z drmeister: I've got to get off my *ss and get some of this stuff implemented.
2014-10-08T03:49:45Z Zhivago: It's where you're running everything in the same ball of mud that things get complicated.
2014-10-08T03:49:56Z nyef: drmeister: That's an implementation artifact, you could implement it with SUBSEQ instead.
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2014-10-08T03:50:38Z nyef: But yeah, implementing specialized and displaced arrays would be good. Don't forget that (VECTOR NIL) is a string!
2014-10-08T03:50:53Z drmeister has a herd of very close shaven yaks shivering in his backyard.
2014-10-08T03:51:27Z drmeister: Wait, (vector nil) is a string?
2014-10-08T03:51:51Z Bike: yeah, string is the type of all vectors specialized to a subtype of character.
2014-10-08T03:52:05Z nyef: And NIL is a subtype of everything.
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2014-10-08T03:52:57Z nyef: Plus the definition of U-A-E-T requires that types upgrade as a lattice and there be specialized types for each distinct subtype of... yeah, it's a mess.
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2014-10-08T03:53:45Z drmeister: Well, good to know - I'll remember that for when I dive into arrays again.
2014-10-08T03:54:19Z nyef: Also, basically no implementation other than SBCL actually does (VECTOR NIL) or (ARRAY NIL).
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2014-10-08T03:56:14Z drmeister: Good thing I hang out here - otherwise I'd be learning this all on the street.
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2014-10-08T04:01:11Z ynniv: stringp disagrees
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2014-10-08T04:01:48Z Bike: hm?
2014-10-08T04:01:54Z chaotic_good: so if lisp is better, why is it so seldom used?
2014-10-08T04:01:57Z chaotic_good: hmmm
2014-10-08T04:02:01Z chaotic_good: hmmmmm
2014-10-08T04:02:15Z chaotic_good: I wish there was a lisp wikibook
2014-10-08T04:02:26Z chaotic_good: with each term defined as soon as it is introduced
2014-10-08T04:02:29Z beach: chaotic_good: There is an implicit assumption in your question, namely that good things are often used.  That just isn't so.
2014-10-08T04:02:29Z ynniv: Microsoft didn’t spend billions of dollars getting people to use it?
2014-10-08T04:02:34Z chaotic_good: I hate reading books who do not define thier terms
2014-10-08T04:02:36Z chaotic_good: :(
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2014-10-08T04:03:23Z chaotic_good: what do you reccomend to learn lisp?
2014-10-08T04:03:48Z nyef: You hate reading books other than dictionaries?
2014-10-08T04:03:50Z ynniv: My first successful read was Practical Common Lisp
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2014-10-08T04:04:48Z beach: chaotic_good: Look at the second paragraph of: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
2014-10-08T04:05:01Z ynniv: (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/)
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2014-10-08T04:06:46Z chaotic_good: I read many programming books, some on lisp, some haskell, some forth, some tcl
2014-10-08T04:06:52Z chaotic_good: prolog too
2014-10-08T04:07:01Z chaotic_good: I hate when there are words used that are undefined.
2014-10-08T04:07:12Z chaotic_good: I read many many scifi books.
2014-10-08T04:07:26Z beach: And they have few undefined terms?
2014-10-08T04:08:03Z ynniv: scifi books use undefined words all the time
2014-10-08T04:08:18Z nyef: Undefined where?
2014-10-08T04:08:32Z nyef: Alternately, not defined where?
2014-10-08T04:09:25Z beach: chaotic_good: I think you will find that the Common Lisp HyperSpec is pretty good about defining terminology.  Not perfect, but better than most specifications I have read.
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2014-10-08T04:16:37Z chaotic_good: oh I mean lisp book not scifi book for undefined terms
2014-10-08T04:16:48Z chaotic_good: scifi books are great vehicles of imagination
2014-10-08T04:16:59Z chaotic_good: I also enjoy role playing game books
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2014-10-08T04:24:30Z chaotic_good: mass produced housing I think could really raise the standard of living for all.
2014-10-08T04:24:42Z chaotic_good: programming lisp is great fun from what I can see
2014-10-08T04:24:51Z chaotic_good: what i cant seee is howto use lisp asa a database
2014-10-08T04:25:06Z pjb: chaotic_good: unless you're discussing using lisp in 3d printing of houses, you'd better discuss it on #lispcafe.
2014-10-08T04:25:19Z nyef: Don't use lisp as a database, use a database as a database.
2014-10-08T04:25:22Z pjb: chaotic_good: postgres was implemented at first in Lisp.
2014-10-08T04:25:52Z chaotic_good: can I store everything in lisp image and save it all to disk every minnute?
2014-10-08T04:26:07Z chaotic_good: postgresql wasnt in lisp wasit? I thought c from the bginning
2014-10-08T04:26:26Z chaotic_good: can multiple webserver processes read from a single lisp image?
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2014-10-08T04:28:41Z pjb: A lot of projects are started in lisp.
2014-10-08T04:28:55Z pjb: And when they require more programmers, they switch to C++ or Java :-(
2014-10-08T04:29:02Z chaotic_good: eeg
2014-10-08T04:29:06Z chaotic_good: thats the worst
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2014-10-08T04:29:19Z chaotic_good: I wishthe java n c++ would all covert to lisp
2014-10-08T04:29:23Z chaotic_good: :)
2014-10-08T04:29:52Z chaotic_good: I saw a long time ago something about a dns server in lisp is very few lines of code compared to bind
2014-10-08T04:29:54Z chaotic_good: and then that web page disappeared
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2014-10-08T04:33:20Z wglb: Hmmm. iolib: needs lfp.h, which I don't seem to have.
2014-10-08T04:33:35Z oGMo: wglb: look for "libfixposix"
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2014-10-08T04:37:26Z wglb: oGMo: Superb. Now works nicely. Thanks. Now to figure that out on mac os x.
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2014-10-08T04:39:08Z oGMo: heh good luck
2014-10-08T04:39:49Z oGMo: but assuming you just installed a dist package, it's not a hard compile either
2014-10-08T04:39:59Z oGMo: but that does mean xcode
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2014-10-08T04:41:23Z wglb: Got xcode on mac; also homebrew.
2014-10-08T04:41:30Z oGMo: you should be set then
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2014-10-08T04:43:54Z wglb: but looks like need to get from git repo and build.
2014-10-08T04:44:07Z ack006: sadly genera vagrant box failed to build, now i'm stuck with dozens of ruby gems to clean up, and a bazillion vagrant files in /tmp, bummer
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2014-10-08T04:45:25Z ack006: i'm surprised it got this far, it felt like installing haskell platform from source, then having cabal fail on some dependency trying to build leksah or something
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2014-10-08T04:46:41Z ack006: i'll try my luck with a simple virtualbox vm
2014-10-08T04:47:11Z ack006: boot from iso, install stuff, no need for vnc
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2014-10-08T04:54:54Z chaotic_good: vagrant lol
2014-10-08T04:55:17Z chaotic_good: whatever happened to the good ole days of installing an interpreter and then programming some code?
2014-10-08T04:56:03Z ack006: dependencies happened
2014-10-08T04:56:08Z ack006: time passed
2014-10-08T04:56:15Z ack006: incompatibilities crept in
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2014-10-08T04:57:50Z wglb: oGMo: And works nicely on max os x after download libfixposix, compile, install.
2014-10-08T04:58:41Z ack006: well, i guess i'm going to type up some nice equations and make some plots in maxima on my phone :-)
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2014-10-08T04:59:45Z chaotic_good: nah
2014-10-08T04:59:53Z chaotic_good: just isntall the intperptereerr n say
2014-10-08T05:00:00Z chaotic_good: "do ti programmer goon"!
2014-10-08T05:00:03Z chaotic_good: dooit!!
2014-10-08T05:00:06Z chaotic_good: lol
2014-10-08T05:00:14Z chaotic_good: skip virtualization and san
2014-10-08T05:00:25Z chaotic_good: raid 10 and freebsd on a 24 disk box
2014-10-08T05:00:32Z chaotic_good: make progrmamer slog into the server and use name based vhosts
2014-10-08T05:00:37Z ack006: (write-line "Hello, world!") FTW!
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2014-10-08T05:03:17Z chaotic_good: will lisp be big in the robot age comign soon?
2014-10-08T05:03:22Z chaotic_good: bots to take over many jobs?
2014-10-08T05:03:30Z chaotic_good: I love that 400 cheesburger an hour bot
2014-10-08T05:05:00Z pjb: Only if you start writing robot minds in lisp.
2014-10-08T05:05:40Z pjb: But there's a company in Finland programming in lisp robots to sort detritus.
2014-10-08T05:06:02Z pjb: They provide their systems to Sweeden which now produces more electricity with their detritus than they need.
2014-10-08T05:06:35Z pjb: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_juice/2014/07/wte_in_sweden_weirdly_enough_burning_garbage_makes_environmental_sense.html
2014-10-08T05:07:06Z pjb: So, they're programming sort of Wall-e's.
2014-10-08T05:08:07Z pjb: Check http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/ai-software-developer-zenrobotics-helsinki/
2014-10-08T05:08:08Z ack006: i'm waiting for e-vaaa to come
2014-10-08T05:08:50Z pjb: Well the creator of Real Dolls did that because he couldn't get budget to develop robots.  But his plan is to embed that hardware with some software.  You could help, perhaps?
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2014-10-08T05:09:23Z pjb: There's enough space in the head to store several processors to be programmed in lisp.
2014-10-08T05:09:33Z ack006: (or to-be (not to-be))
2014-10-08T05:09:35Z pjb:  https://www.realdoll.com/
2014-10-08T05:09:37Z ack006: that's the question
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2014-10-08T05:24:25Z jackdaniel: (not (and (not to-be) (to-be))) ;-)
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2014-10-08T05:48:40Z flip214: drmeister: re "Things you can do with Clasp #1" ... is there some way to get the bare-bone assembly code of a function, or at least the address and length, so that an external process like GDB can look at that?
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2014-10-08T05:58:28Z jasom: flip214: I think clasp can generate DWARF info
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2014-10-08T06:00:11Z flip214: jasom: but would an external debugger find the in-memory information? normally they look at the loaded binary.
2014-10-08T06:00:29Z flip214: hmmm, or does clasp go the ECL way by producing lots of little shared objects?
2014-10-08T06:00:49Z flip214: so many questions, so little time.
2014-10-08T06:02:44Z jasom: flip214: I'll have to see if I can find the log, but he showed me how to get call-stacks with gdb at one point
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2014-10-08T06:03:07Z flip214: ah, thanks! that would be nice.
2014-10-08T06:04:54Z jasom: flip214: damn; I found the quote I was thinking of, but he didn't say how, just that gdb 7.x was needed
2014-10-08T06:05:28Z jasom: anyways he's on GMT-4 so probably is asleep
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2014-10-08T06:20:04Z flip214: jasom: thanks for the efforts. gdb=7.7.1+dfsg-3, so no problem there.
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2014-10-08T09:33:19Z splittist: Ooh - ELS2015 in London...
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2014-10-08T09:48:40Z Krystof: yes indeedy
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2014-10-08T09:50:02Z dim: oh yeah
2014-10-08T09:50:32Z dim: I don't like that we have to write a full paper to be a speaker, so I would maybe propose another lightning talk ;-)
2014-10-08T09:50:57Z dim: (I don't like the paper submission because I don't have any time for that, on principle I can see why it's a good idea tho)
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2014-10-08T09:52:32Z Krystof: there will almost certainly be opportunities for lightning talks
2014-10-08T09:53:01Z Krystof: also, if you have a different format for what you want to talk about -- demo?  workshop? -- propose it to Julian and me!
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2014-10-08T09:59:51Z dim: mmm, will think about it yeah
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2014-10-08T11:17:19Z moore33: Is there a more precise date than April 2015 for ELS?
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2014-10-08T11:24:21Z Krystof: 20/21
2014-10-08T11:26:59Z wasamasa: ELS?
2014-10-08T11:27:16Z wasamasa: European Lisp... Succumbing?
2014-10-08T11:27:50Z dim: Symposium
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2014-10-08T11:44:29Z moore33: My first hit for ELS2015 was "www.els2015.eu/
2014-10-08T11:44:29Z moore33: Meeting on Leptospirosis and other rodent borne haemorrhagic fevers." :P
2014-10-08T11:44:41Z moore33: yikes
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2014-10-08T11:45:15Z moore33: Note to self: use "leptospirosis" for a future project name.
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2014-10-08T11:45:28Z Xach: you can probably attend both
2014-10-08T11:45:51Z moore33: Xach: I'd surely be the only one.
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2014-10-08T11:46:51Z splittist: Will it be in London London, or south of the river?
2014-10-08T11:46:52Z Krystof: ha
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2014-10-08T11:47:01Z Krystof: that might explain why my medical doctor friend retweeted it
2014-10-08T11:47:48Z Krystof: splittist: it'll be in sunny Deptford, "home of multiple stabbings" as it says on the local train station
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2014-10-08T11:50:05Z splittist: Kit Marlowe being the most famous, I suppose
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2014-10-08T11:58:29Z Krystof: if indeed he did die, instead of being whisked away by the NSA
2014-10-08T11:59:32Z Krystof: dun dun dunnn
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2014-10-08T12:30:11Z splittist: Krystof: someone had to finish 'Shakespeare's' plays, once Oxford got bored.
2014-10-08T12:30:50Z splittist: Nowadays we'd just use minion, of course.
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2014-10-08T12:56:13Z drmeister: flip214: You can run clasp from within gdb and disassemble functions.  You can also run the LLVM program "llc" on the generated bitcode files (they are all generated in the Clasp directory tree) and generate assembler code that way.
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2014-10-08T12:56:19Z inklesspen: splittist: get out
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2014-10-08T12:58:47Z nerdbeard: I'm a newbie using lisp-unit, but it integrates poorly with slime because of it's "write tests lexically earlier than the names it tests" trick.  Anyone want to pitch another test lib?
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2014-10-08T12:58:57Z nerdbeard: (*its)
2014-10-08T12:59:20Z eudoxia: fiveam
2014-10-08T12:59:25Z nerdbeard: beauty
2014-10-08T12:59:28Z splittist: +1 fiveam
2014-10-08T12:59:38Z splittist: 1+, I guess
2014-10-08T12:59:38Z eudoxia: it's what i use for everything
2014-10-08T13:00:12Z nerdbeard: I guess if I could have lisp-unit debug on fails instead of just on errors it would be a big step forward
2014-10-08T13:00:23Z fe[nl]ix: nerdbeard: fiveam is a good choice
2014-10-08T13:01:00Z Shinmera: I need to give Prove a shot some day
2014-10-08T13:01:19Z nerdbeard: What I want is to be able to jump to failures in my code, and eval in the assert's frame
2014-10-08T13:01:26Z nerdbeard: I'll go install fiveam right now
2014-10-08T13:02:24Z eudoxia: Shinmera: yeah, but then i would have to install that slime plugin, and ughhhh
2014-10-08T13:02:35Z Shinmera: eudoxia: You don't have to
2014-10-08T13:02:41Z Shinmera: Only if you want fancy colours
2014-10-08T13:03:08Z eudoxia: hm
2014-10-08T13:04:03Z Shinmera: (Prove being https://github.com/fukamachi/prove for those interested)
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2014-10-08T13:14:23Z chitofan: why does (some #'= '(1 2 3 4 5) '(5 4 3 2 1)) =>  true
2014-10-08T13:14:23Z minion: chitofan, memo from pjb: you could at least read the introduction of clhs!!!  www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dab.htm
2014-10-08T13:14:23Z minion: chitofan, memo from pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddt.htm
2014-10-08T13:14:23Z minion: chitofan, memo from pjb: you can read about #\- and #\> (making the "->" suffix in map->) in: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ac.htm and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm  (hint: they are just like #\a or #\b).
2014-10-08T13:14:47Z chitofan: but (some #'= '(1 2 3 4 5) '(6 7 8 9 1)) =>  nil
2014-10-08T13:15:01Z Shinmera: chitofan: because 3=3 ?
2014-10-08T13:15:18Z chitofan: oh
2014-10-08T13:15:20Z wasamasa: Shinmera: hmm, weird names for the functions
2014-10-08T13:15:20Z chitofan: ugh
2014-10-08T13:15:26Z eudoxia: some means any
2014-10-08T13:15:44Z wasamasa: Shinmera: I'd have expected ISNT to be a question
2014-10-08T13:15:46Z chitofan: i didn't notice 3 was in the same position for both list
2014-10-08T13:16:28Z Shinmera: wasamasa: I ain't the author, so why are you telling me this
2014-10-08T13:17:44Z wasamasa: Shinmera: just as a general observation
2014-10-08T13:19:14Z wasamasa proceeds reading the docstrings of fiveam
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2014-10-08T13:37:46Z nyef: G'morning all.
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2014-10-08T13:43:49Z pjb: chitofan: (some (lambda (a b) (when (= a b) (progn (format t "got a match ~S ~S~%" a b) t))) '(1 2 3 4 5) '(5 4 3 2 1))
2014-10-08T13:44:15Z pjb: well, remove the PROGN, I started with a IF…
2014-10-08T13:44:51Z chitofan: pjb: just tried it out ><
2014-10-08T13:45:06Z pjb: chitofan: the point is that when you don't know why you get some result, you can just ask more questions to the REPL.
2014-10-08T13:45:54Z chitofan: using tools like format and trace?
2014-10-08T13:46:14Z dlowe: and break
2014-10-08T13:46:34Z pjb: chitofan: using lisp, yes.
2014-10-08T13:47:03Z chitofan: i've yet to see a chapter that introduces those tools to me :|
2014-10-08T13:47:53Z dlowe: sounds like you should read more chapters, then
2014-10-08T13:48:07Z dlowe: minion: chant!
2014-10-08T13:48:07Z minion: MORE CHAPTERS
2014-10-08T13:48:10Z chitofan: yes, but meanwhile i hope to count on the kind souls in #lisp
2014-10-08T13:48:25Z pjb: chitofan: for example: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper) (defpackage "E2" (:use "CL-STEPPER")) (in-package "E2") (step  (some (lambda (a b) (= a b)) '(1 2 3 4 5) '(5 4 3 2 1)) :trace)
2014-10-08T13:48:26Z dlowe: I'll let you know what I see one
2014-10-08T13:48:31Z dlowe: *when
2014-10-08T13:49:14Z pjb: chitofan: in this example you need the lambda, because cl:some and cl:= are compiled with the "CL" package, not with the "CL-STEPPER" package.
2014-10-08T13:50:08Z chitofan: okay. so if i want to trace cons, i need a lambda too?
2014-10-08T13:50:18Z pjb: Yes.
2014-10-08T13:50:26Z chitofan: if a function has multiple function calls, how do i choose which to trace?
2014-10-08T13:50:43Z pjb: Only the function defined with the CL-STEPPER operators (defun, defmacro, lambda) are traceable/steppable.
2014-10-08T13:52:02Z pjb: For a normal trace or step, you can also use cl:trace and cl:step, but cl:step is not implemented in CCL, which is the reason why I implemented cl-stepper.
2014-10-08T13:52:30Z Cymew: chitofan: One thing I usually do when I wonder what came out of some block is to bind it to a symbol and then DESCRIBE it. Might be useful for post mortem
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2014-10-08T13:53:03Z Cymew: ...might not strickly apply here, but anyway.
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2014-10-08T13:53:40Z chitofan: so if i wanted to trace a function thats compiled with the CL package, i'll have to write an equivalent version of it in a lambda then use it to trace?
2014-10-08T13:54:00Z chitofan: cymew: not sure what you're talking about, could you describe it with an example ><
2014-10-08T13:54:05Z pjb: chitofan: depends on what you mean by trace.
2014-10-08T13:54:16Z pjb: chitofan: Unfortunately, I introduced some ambiguity.
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2014-10-08T13:54:35Z pjb: chitofan: there are cl:trace and cl:step, to trace functions, and to step expressions.
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2014-10-08T13:55:14Z pjb: chitofan: but cl:trace only displays entry/exit of functions, and cl:step only works subexpression by subexpression, with manual input at each step, and cl:step is not implemented in ccl.
2014-10-08T13:55:58Z pjb: chitofan: cl-stepper:step can work like cl:step, but only for the function defined with cl-stepper:defun, cl-stepper:lambda, cl-stepper:defmacro, and the other cl-stepper special operators and macros.
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2014-10-08T13:56:33Z pjb: chitofan: cl-stepper:step displays more information than cl:trace or cl:step, and has an option, named :trace, which lets it step automatically, tracing all the subexpressions.
2014-10-08T13:57:00Z Cymew: chitofan: Silly example, but if you do "(SETF foo (OPEN "/home/ante/test.txt" :direction :input))" you can use "(DESCRIBE foo)" and that might some times be useful.
2014-10-08T13:57:05Z pjb: So if this is what you mean by "trace", then yes, you need to define those functions with the cl-stepper package.
2014-10-08T13:57:46Z Cymew: chitofan: If that first block is some code you're analyzing, DESCRIBE is one of those tools like FORMAT and TRACE that can "look inside" lisp.
2014-10-08T13:57:58Z pjb: chitofan: (documentation (find-package :cl-stepper) t)
2014-10-08T13:58:44Z Cymew: Cymew: Just thought I might mention it as the subject of tools within lisp.
2014-10-08T13:58:51Z chitofan: that's weird
2014-10-08T13:58:55Z chitofan: System "com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.stepper" not found    [Condition of type QUICKLISP-CLIENT::SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND]
2014-10-08T13:59:41Z pjb: chitofan: perhaps: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp)
2014-10-08T13:59:47Z chitofan: cymew: that sounds useful :) i will try it out when i'm stuck next time, thanks
2014-10-08T13:59:53Z pjb: chitofan: or just: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp)
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2014-10-08T14:00:56Z Cymew: chitofan: Cool. Hope it might be useful. I just learned my file was had "EXTERNAL-FORMAT  = :UTF-8" :)
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2014-10-08T14:02:15Z chitofan: pjb: none of these works, but its ok. when the need arises i will try to get quicklisp to work, i've done it before. just on a temporary laptop with lisp-in-a-box implementation now :)
2014-10-08T14:02:25Z chitofan: pjb: i hate to bother you anymore
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2014-10-08T14:11:21Z pjb: chitofan: didn't you install quicklisp?
2014-10-08T14:11:31Z pjb: That's the first thing to install (after emacs and a CL implementation).
2014-10-08T14:12:24Z pjb: wget http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp ; $LISP RET  (load "quicklisp.lisp") RET and follow the instructions.
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2014-10-08T15:22:59Z didi: If you were to read a, say, 4 bytes integer from a byte stream, and you have to account for little and big endianness, would you rather write two separate functions, one for each endianness, or only one with a parameter indicating it? This function will be called many times with the same endianness, so I am worrying about a needless `if'. /me might be optimizing prematurely
2014-10-08T15:23:25Z stassats: two
2014-10-08T15:23:28Z nyef: I've done it both ways.
2014-10-08T15:23:37Z stassats: me personally, i would call bswap
2014-10-08T15:25:37Z nyef: If I'm pulling integers from a file and need to account for endianness, it's either homogenous data or hetrogenous data. In the latter case, it's typically structured data, so I'm already looking at wanting to describe the structure and have a macro or something bust out both versions of the reader function.
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2014-10-08T15:28:43Z didi: stassats: I can't find `bswap'.
2014-10-08T15:29:07Z stassats: where are you looking?
2014-10-08T15:29:21Z didi: Hyperspec?
2014-10-08T15:29:31Z stassats: no, that's an x86 instruction
2014-10-08T15:29:37Z didi: Ah.
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2014-10-08T15:29:50Z stassats: try https://github.com/stassats/swap-bytes
2014-10-08T15:29:55Z didi: Thanks.
2014-10-08T15:30:24Z nyef: stassats might call bswap, I just dpb the bytes in a different order in the first place.
2014-10-08T15:30:44Z stassats: well, of course that means that wouldn't be reading 4 bytes
2014-10-08T15:30:47Z stassats: i
2014-10-08T15:30:56Z stassats: but one 32-bit integer
2014-10-08T15:31:04Z stassats: and then swapped accordingly
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2014-10-08T15:34:47Z Grue``: if you're going to call one function a lot of times, why not write a function that reads several integers at once, so you don't waste time doing lots of function calls?
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2014-10-08T15:35:15Z stassats: that's not the best way to avoid function calls
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2014-10-08T15:36:36Z Grue`: and reading n bytes at once from stream is usually faster than reading 4 bytes n/4 times
2014-10-08T15:38:29Z stassats: except that this is what is being discussed --- endianness issues
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2014-10-08T15:39:49Z didi: stassats: Ah, so if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying to write two functions, say `read-uint32-little' and `read-uint32-big' (or even using a generic function), having both of them reading an integer in the same way, but having one of them swapping bytes?
2014-10-08T15:40:09Z stassats: yes
2014-10-08T15:40:14Z didi: Hum...
2014-10-08T15:40:33Z didi: Thank you.
2014-10-08T15:40:43Z stassats: except that cl streams can't provide variable length bytes, so, that also means writing your own streams
2014-10-08T15:40:46Z stassats: (which i did)
2014-10-08T15:41:26Z didi: Ah, you read the N bytes in one go?
2014-10-08T15:41:52Z stassats: right
2014-10-08T15:41:56Z didi: Cool.
2014-10-08T15:43:59Z didi: Grue`: I don't think there will be enough integers in a row, but I will keep that in mind. Thanks.
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2014-10-08T16:38:18Z jlarocco: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_hash_t.htm
2014-10-08T16:38:23Z jlarocco: is that really a gopher:// link?
2014-10-08T16:38:38Z jlarocco: to Knuth's AOCP
2014-10-08T16:38:52Z fe[nl]ix: yeah :D
2014-10-08T16:39:16Z jlarocco: haha, just making sure I wasn't imagining things
2014-10-08T16:40:23Z rme: ha
2014-10-08T16:41:18Z ggole: Nice catch.
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2014-10-08T16:43:55Z clop: is there any way for sbcl to be configured to dynamically expand its heap?  (kind of a bummer to have to guess ahead of time how much memory I'll need...)
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2014-10-08T16:45:27Z Krystof: clop: there are almost-finished patches somewhere out there
2014-10-08T16:45:33Z Krystof: I regret that we never merged them in :(
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2014-10-08T16:49:05Z didi: nyef: I do have a macro to generate the read binary machinery. It's highly inspired by PCL. But I don't know if I want to create both 'uint32-big and 'uint32-little. I am thinking of creating only 'uint32, which will read a little-endian integer and, when I need to read a big-endian integer, I wrap it in a function that byte swaps it.
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2014-10-08T17:35:17Z drmeister: dlowe: Do you use the SMUG parser generator?  Is it better than something like Bison/Yacc?
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2014-10-08T17:36:47Z nyef: drewc: In case you're here, someone is asking about your little toy.
2014-10-08T17:37:23Z dlowe: drmeister: I've used smug. It's quite nice. http://github.com/dlowe-net/printf
2014-10-08T17:38:02Z dlowe: I've also used esrap, and it was nice too. https://github.com/dlowe-net/orcabot/blob/master/src/calc.lisp
2014-10-08T17:38:13Z dlowe: both much nicer than bison/yacc, I should add
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2014-10-08T17:39:26Z dlowe: I don't think printf is going to work with the current smug, though. I seem to recall the API changing out from undre me
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2014-10-08T17:40:14Z drmeister: printf?
2014-10-08T17:40:26Z dlowe: shrug. I wanted to try out SMUG when it first came out :)
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2014-10-08T17:41:07Z drmeister: Ok.
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2014-10-08T17:48:33Z dlowe: I provided the examples so you could just see what the code looked like
2014-10-08T17:48:42Z dlowe: I'm sure my production rules weren't the most efficient, too
2014-10-08T17:51:27Z drmeister: I see, I didn't notice the first link you provided htt;P//github.com/dlowe-net/printf.   irccloud highlights the line blue and it contains a blue link.
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2014-10-08T18:06:49Z drewc: here!
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2014-10-08T18:07:11Z dlowe: speak of SMUG, and drewc will appear
2014-10-08T18:07:29Z drewc: drmeister: I use SMUG, and it is 1000x better IMNSHO :)
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2014-10-08T18:07:54Z drewc: I was just talking of smug in #lispcafe strangely enough ....
2014-10-08T18:08:12Z drewc: I think it is relevant somehow! :P
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2014-10-08T18:12:21Z drewc: dlowe: the API has changed, a bunch actually. TBH what I do is have a smug.lisp in most of my projects, because it is very simple and, well, I am an evolutionary developer it seems.
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2014-10-08T18:12:58Z dlowe: if someone is insane enough to actually want a CL printf, they can send me a patch :p
2014-10-08T18:13:23Z drewc: and, heh, the <parser> monad is still a <parser> monad, regardless of how the API is implemented!
2014-10-08T18:13:37Z drewc glares at parsec now
2014-10-08T18:16:04Z drewc: dlowe: well, I do hope that you liked SMUG, or the ideas behind it.. as for printf ... I might send you a patch because I need to know uses of it for research purposes :)
2014-10-08T18:16:20Z didi: Is anyone familiar with babel? How do I set the endianness of a vector of octets?
2014-10-08T18:16:54Z oGMo: er what
2014-10-08T18:17:16Z dlowe: drewc: yeah, SMUG is quite cool.
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2014-10-08T18:20:23Z drewc: dlowe: looking at printf.lisp, the patch would be very simple, and a good use/try of my new interface (which is based on the :CL package, with all symbol names prefixed with a #\.) So, when I finish my WIP on SMUG itself, I might just patch printf as the first proper outside test.
2014-10-08T18:21:05Z drewc adds a TODO to his tutorial.org
2014-10-08T18:21:38Z didi: oGMo: Hum. Maybe I have the wrong assumption about UTF-8? There might be characters encoded in multibytes, so I thought they could be represented differently depending on the endianness.
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2014-10-08T18:22:23Z |3b|: didi: utf8 is encoded in sequences of octets, no endianness
2014-10-08T18:22:42Z didi: Silly me. Thank you, |3b|.
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2014-10-08T18:45:50Z drewc: dlowe: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#patch-printflisp-to-use-this-code
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2014-10-08T19:03:48Z drmeister: Sorry, I got pulled away.  My lab is moving into a new building in 2 weeks and things are about to get crazy.
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2014-10-08T19:05:49Z drmeister: The purpose of Clasp was to write Common Lisp that used C++ libraries.  In my Chemistry C++ libraries I have a couple of parsers for esoteric Chemistry related file formats.
2014-10-08T19:06:33Z drmeister: The C++ parsers are written using Bison which has it's own issues with C++ and the parsers are brittle and are currently broken.
2014-10-08T19:07:00Z drmeister: I'd like to rewrite the parsers in Common Lisp - that's why I asked about parser writing libraries in Common Lisp.
2014-10-08T19:07:18Z drmeister: Now that I have ASDF somewhat working in Clasp I can get started.
2014-10-08T19:07:37Z nyef: drmeister: Esoteric Chemistry related file formats? IIRC, slyrus had a few things in that sort of direction.
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2014-10-08T19:07:57Z drmeister: So SMUG comes highly recommended.   The concepts behind it look pretty different from those of Bison.
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2014-10-08T19:08:42Z drmeister: It looks like I'll have to trade in my Backus-Naur forms for Monads?
2014-10-08T19:08:58Z slyrus: I used cl-parser-combinators. drewc assures me that smug is better. I haven't had time to verify that.
2014-10-08T19:09:29Z drmeister: slyrus - and you used cl-parser-combinators to implement a SMILES parser?
2014-10-08T19:09:38Z slyrus: correct
2014-10-08T19:09:56Z drewc: drmeister: Everything is related to a Monad, after all ... we gnow that!
2014-10-08T19:09:59Z drmeister: Ok, at least there is that.  I hate putting a week into a library and finding it come up short.
2014-10-08T19:10:26Z slyrus: it would be an interesting exercise to take my SMILES parser and rework it for SMUG
2014-10-08T19:10:55Z drmeister: drewc: So I am told.  But I don't Grok Monads yet.
2014-10-08T19:10:56Z dlowe: drmeister: if you fail, you at least know who to blame
2014-10-08T19:11:08Z dlowe: drmeister: I don't either, but I could still use SMUG easily
2014-10-08T19:11:46Z drmeister: Yes - I'll blame slyrus :-)
2014-10-08T19:12:08Z drewc: drmeister: well, smug started because I needed a parser, and having implemented one the "standard' way (http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-org-mode/#sec-4.4) I started researching parsing.
2014-10-08T19:12:53Z drmeister: Ok, I'll take a leap of faith and move into the bright future full of Monads.
2014-10-08T19:13:20Z drewc: Now, monads are very simply in a dynamically typed system! https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#a-quick-word-on-monads and https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#syntax--let-and-the-identity-monad
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2014-10-08T19:14:33Z drmeister: There is no love lost between Bison/Yacc and I.
2014-10-08T19:14:40Z drewc: So, don't worry about it... but if you care somewhat, https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/monparsing.org is the paper that all monadic parsers are based on
2014-10-08T19:14:52Z drewc: and I translate the code to CL
2014-10-08T19:15:06Z drewc: (SMUG is literate! :))
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2014-10-08T19:18:09Z drmeister: Picking up with something like cl-yacc would be like leaving one abusive relationship and immediately entering into another.
2014-10-08T19:18:17Z White_Flame: I also have not grokked monads, but I suspect it's one of those things that I use, but don't recognize it as such
2014-10-08T19:18:35Z chase_gray: is there anyway to remove null-bytes with string-trim?
2014-10-08T19:18:44Z drmeister doesn't mean to disparage cl-yacc, it's probably a fine piece of software, it's more the BNF forms and LALR parser stuff that I have problems with.
2014-10-08T19:19:09Z dlowe: chase_gray: (string-trim '(#\nul) str)
2014-10-08T19:19:32Z chase_gray: thank you
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2014-10-08T19:20:25Z White_Flame: related to chase_gray's question, is there any syntactic sugar to have non-printable, or unicode-specified, character codes in string literals?
2014-10-08T19:20:47Z drmeister: Thank you gentle persons - I will no doubt be back to ask more questions about writing parsers in Common Lisp.
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2014-10-08T19:23:03Z White_Flame: I've done things like (concatenate 'string "abc" '(#\Nul) "def"), but that seems pretty longhand
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2014-10-08T19:24:00Z White_Flame: and I don't prefer (format nil...) due to the reordering of literals up front, parameters at the end
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2014-10-08T19:24:17Z White_Flame: though I know there's lots of tweaks there, too
2014-10-08T19:25:03Z fortitude: White_Flame: I'm not sure about it, but edi weitz' interpol lib might be useful to you
2014-10-08T19:25:15Z fortitude: since iirc you can specify characters with octal codes and similar
2014-10-08T19:25:44Z nyef: White_Flame: Or "just" use a JSON parser and a JSON string literal in a #.
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2014-10-08T19:26:32Z White_Flame: as long as it's handled via macros so the compiled code has a complete literal for those portions
2014-10-08T19:26:43Z White_Flame: instead of doing runtime consing
2014-10-08T19:27:02Z nyef: As I said, use a #.
2014-10-08T19:27:09Z nyef: Does the conversion at read-time.
2014-10-08T19:27:13Z White_Flame: but yeah, cl-interpol is read-time
2014-10-08T19:27:14Z White_Flame: right
2014-10-08T19:27:28Z White_Flame: was referring to fortitude first
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2014-10-08T20:39:44Z jasom: drmeister: esrap might be easier to get into; it has several limitations that smug doesn't, but is quite fast and easy to learn
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2014-10-08T20:42:20Z jasom: drewc: one thing I miss in smug is the ability to efficiently disambiguate on greedy or conservative; right now I need to generate the whole parse forest and then disambiguate when greedy/conservative could be done without ever building the parse forest
2014-10-08T20:43:02Z drewc: jasom: heh, strangely enough, I know exactly that problem, and have solutions!
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2014-10-08T20:44:10Z jasom: drewc: I like solutions!
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2014-10-08T20:47:08Z drewc: jasom: ok, to start with is the very simple .FIRST function, which takes the first result and throws away the rest. https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#efficiency
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2014-10-08T20:48:10Z drewc: That works for me 80% of the time, as I know exactly where I want the greed to end as it were.
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2014-10-08T20:49:24Z drewc: But, there is also the non-deterministic choice combinator vs the deterministic ones ... ie: .PLUS vs .OR
2014-10-08T20:50:09Z drewc: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#plus-the-non-deterministic-choice-combinator vs https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#or-not-and-and--deterministic-logic-combinators
2014-10-08T20:50:09Z jasom: drewc: I remember I had a parser where I wanted always the last item; I probably could have restructured to make it the opposite though.
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2014-10-08T20:52:59Z drewc: and then there is a simply way to use .PLUS, .OR or any other combination for what used to be called ZERO-OR-MORE, ONE-OR-MORE : https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#map--the-repetition-combinator
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2014-10-08T20:53:33Z drewc: yeah, the last vs first is simply what order the parsers are put into .PLUS ...
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2014-10-08T20:55:20Z Bicyclidine: does this tutorial define .many?
2014-10-08T20:58:58Z drewc: Bicyclidine: yeah, as .ZERO-OR-MORE which is identical, code wise, as https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/monparsing.org#simple-repetition . We then use it to create .MAP, which should probably be reworked, but is essentially a combination of .MANY and COERCE.
2014-10-08T20:59:29Z Bicyclidine: ic
2014-10-08T20:59:41Z Bicyclidine: i just noticed the article started using it before defining it
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2014-10-08T21:03:13Z drewc: Bicyclidine: ahh, thanks ... it is a WIP after all, so what you noticed is a bug. Looks like a moth though ... easy to get rid of and not that harmful . hold...
2014-10-08T21:03:32Z jasom: drewc: does smug use dots for its builtins now?
2014-10-08T21:03:42Z jasom: for names that is
2014-10-08T21:04:00Z drewc: jasom: https://github.com/drewc/smug/blob/master/doc/tutorial.org#common-lisp
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2014-10-08T21:04:04Z nyef: drewc: Easy to get rid of, not that harmful, but can easily prevent a relay from functioning?
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2014-10-08T21:04:33Z nyef: (Not to mention can be hell on clothes made with natural fibers?)
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2014-10-08T21:04:54Z jasom: I think it was =and or something like that when I last used it?
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2014-10-08T21:45:37Z jasom: drewc: Is there a greedy-first zero-or-more?
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2014-10-08T22:17:33Z drmeister: Can anyone recommend a good website that would convert text copied from a session running a program into nicely formatted HTML?
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2014-10-08T22:18:20Z ack006: drmeister: what kind of session?
2014-10-08T22:18:20Z drmeister: I used one in this blog post to show what output looked like when I evaluated functions in Clasp:   http://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/things-you-can-do-with-clasp-1/
2014-10-08T22:18:49Z drmeister: Something like that but that looks nicer.
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2014-10-08T22:20:06Z drmeister: I found a web site that I copied text from a Clasp session into and it formatted it into those boxy things - it looks amateurish.
2014-10-08T22:20:31Z ack006: if you're running your session, perhaps you could hack up this:
2014-10-08T22:20:32Z ack006: EmacsWiki: Htmlize : http://www.emacswiki.org/Htmlize
2014-10-08T22:20:46Z ack006: *session in Emacs
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2014-10-08T22:22:05Z ack006: if clasp sessions have any kind of presentations like slime, then i think it could be possible to render those
2014-10-08T22:22:26Z drewc: yeah, htmlize + org-mode + slime is what I use.
2014-10-08T22:22:34Z ack006: :-)
2014-10-08T22:23:22Z drewc: though, I am writing my own version, because cl-org-mode is what got me into parsers, and html export is weaving ... I am working on tangling now :)
2014-10-08T22:24:11Z ack006: drewc: :-)
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2014-10-08T22:27:49Z TomRS: hi, does anyoue have a good link where the "bottom-up" way of programming in lisp is explained?
2014-10-08T22:28:07Z drmeister: Hmm, htmlize works - I do like the outer box of the highlite.me website I was using.
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2014-10-08T22:28:29Z ack006: drmeister: :-)
2014-10-08T22:28:51Z didi: TomRS: Try http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html .
2014-10-08T22:28:53Z ack006: drmeister: nice site btw, i'll look into clasp
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2014-10-08T22:32:09Z TomRS: didi: thanks! but not exactly what I was looking for. never mind. thanks a lot!
2014-10-08T22:32:30Z didi: TomRS: np
2014-10-08T22:33:54Z TomRS: wow... that's quite a price for a book :) http://www.amazon.de/On-Lisp-Advanced-Techniques-Common/dp/0130305529
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2014-10-08T22:34:31Z oGMo: :o
2014-10-08T22:34:39Z TomRS: 540$ :O
2014-10-08T22:34:54Z TomRS: found by accident :)
2014-10-08T22:36:55Z TomRS: didi: you are right! the domain was correct, just different url http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html
2014-10-08T22:37:03Z TomRS: didi: thanks again!! a lot!
2014-10-08T22:37:13Z TomRS: didi: exactly what I was looking for!!
2014-10-08T22:38:07Z didi: TomRS: Cool!
2014-10-08T22:38:19Z TomRS: didi: the hello world example blows my mind :D
2014-10-08T22:38:38Z didi: TomRS: Heh. The whole book is really great.
2014-10-08T22:38:46Z TomRS: didi: thanks again!
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2014-10-08T22:38:49Z didi: yw
2014-10-08T22:38:52Z TomRS: plus it's fee :)
2014-10-08T22:38:56Z TomRS: *free
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2014-10-08T22:40:49Z drewc: TomRS: So free that I recommend purchasing the book :)
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2014-10-08T22:42:53Z TomRS: drewc: I like to have books on my shelves :)
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2014-10-08T22:46:53Z dim: should I report this bug to the CCL guys? https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/119
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2014-10-08T22:49:47Z Bike: probably, if you reduce it to filenames with forward slashes not working
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2014-10-08T22:50:52Z dim: will see about that tomorrow then, thanks
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2014-10-08T22:54:56Z rme: Well, how can it be legal for a native pathname to have a #\/ in it?
2014-10-08T22:56:17Z rme: I mean, except as a component separator.
2014-10-08T22:56:56Z dim: > Error: Filename "/Users/seamus/pg2/build/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/preferences/systems/asdf-finalizers-test\\/1.txt" contains illegal character #\/
2014-10-08T22:57:51Z dim: I don't have a preferences/ folder in my copy of quicklisp
2014-10-08T22:57:59Z dim: maybe a bug in quicklisp now?
2014-10-08T22:58:34Z dim: also here I have asdf-finalizers-test.txt
2014-10-08T22:58:52Z dim: so it might actually be a Quicklisp issue
2014-10-08T22:58:57Z oGMo: what is actually giving that error?
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2014-10-08T23:00:51Z oGMo: e.g., (make-pathname :name "foo/bar") in CCL does not error here
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2014-10-08T23:01:52Z rme: oGMo: (ccl:native-translated-namestring (make-pathname :name "foo/bar")) will choke.
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2014-10-08T23:01:58Z oGMo: though apparently mine is 1.9, so
2014-10-08T23:02:43Z oGMo: thta doesn't for me either, actually
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2014-10-08T23:04:08Z rme: You're right.  On 1.9, it works; on 1.10 it chokes.
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2014-10-08T23:04:46Z rme: I wonder which is right.
2014-10-08T23:04:48Z oGMo: i should grab the new one .. i recompiled it at some point and i forget why
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2014-10-08T23:05:47Z oGMo: rme: well that's a different question, but the error seems to me more correct than passing what should be a filename and having path components
2014-10-08T23:06:08Z oGMo: especially since in theory it could be a security issue
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2014-10-08T23:06:30Z rme: At the moment, I think I favor 1.10's behavior.
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2014-10-08T23:13:40Z oGMo: but in sbcl, touch tmp/bar, then (truename (make-pathname :name "tmp/bar")) => #P"/home/rpav/tmp/bar"
2014-10-08T23:13:55Z oGMo: (truename errors in ccl 1.10)
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2014-10-08T23:17:28Z drmeister: ack006: Thank you.
2014-10-08T23:17:37Z ack006: hmm it looks like sbcl may be wrong. if you inspect the presentation in slime you see: Directory: NIL
2014-10-08T23:17:44Z ack006: drmeister: you're welcome :-)
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2014-10-08T23:20:51Z ack006: while Name: @1="tmp/bar" is the whole path including directory
2014-10-08T23:23:59Z ack006: and Namestring: "tmp/bar"
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2014-10-08T23:28:42Z ack006: oGMo: maybe look at: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss257_w.htm
2014-10-08T23:29:59Z ack006: "To be safe, portable programs must avoid all potential punctuation characters."
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2014-10-08T23:35:24Z ack006: (make-pathname :directory "foo" :name "bar")
2014-10-08T23:35:46Z ack006: but then the path will be absolute (beware!)
2014-10-08T23:36:01Z ack006: i.e. "/foo/bar"
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2014-10-08T23:39:22Z ack006: *will be -> may be
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2014-10-08T23:52:56Z ack006: so use: (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "foo") :name "bar")
2014-10-08T23:53:00Z ack006: just to be safe
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