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Every compiler translates other languages into Abstract Syntax Trees which can be represented by S-expressions. But not all Abstract Syntax Trees can be translated into syntax in every language. 2014-10-07T00:59:52Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:00:08Z drmeister: Thus every programming concept can be expressed in Common Lisp but that is not true of other languages. 2014-10-07T01:01:46Z jainex joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:01:58Z drmeister: Have you ever read Zelazny? The Nine Princes of Amber books? Common Lisp is the One True Language and all other languages are pale shadows. 2014-10-07T01:02:39Z drmeister: [And the choir sings Hosanna] 2014-10-07T01:03:36Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T01:06:07Z p_l: drmeister: personally I think Lisp hailed more from the Logrus side of things. Not a one true language, but one of the tools in the chest of a proper logrus mage ;) 2014-10-07T01:06:28Z oGMo: drmeister: CL may be like Amber, but that means it's not the True Pattern ;) 2014-10-07T01:06:35Z oGMo: (spoilers?) 2014-10-07T01:06:43Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T01:07:32Z p_l: oGMo: which True Pattern, the one by Dworkin, the one by Oberon, or the distinctly less-assholish and personable one by Corvin? ;) 2014-10-07T01:08:01Z oGMo: CL has issues on the low-level end that make it not quite perfect 2014-10-07T01:08:35Z p_l: and it's too chaotic to be on the order side. Too malleable 2014-10-07T01:08:45Z oGMo: p_l: corwin? dworkin didn't make the eye or a pattern (at least in canon), but this is straying waaay off topic 2014-10-07T01:09:16Z drmeister: oGMo: Ah - you get my meaning exactly. :-) 2014-10-07T01:09:48Z p_l: oGMo: Dworkin was medium through which the pattern got inscribed into reality, Oberon's fix supposedly lead to slight changes, Corwin's was totally different. 2014-10-07T01:10:53Z oGMo: er, wow i should reread that i guess 2014-10-07T01:10:54Z p_l: the former stole the eye, ran away with it and then made the "true pattern" from scratch, forming the opposite pole of reality (order) 2014-10-07T01:12:50Z p_l: or so the Logrus put it. Pattern was a dick anyway, the moment a "human" fucks base elements of reality over was crowning moment of awesome of the books for me :) 2014-10-07T01:13:23Z p_l: huh, I was still wearing the @ 2014-10-07T01:13:28Z ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 2014-10-07T01:13:32Z jainex quit (Quit: jainex) 2014-10-07T01:13:47Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:14:44Z jplankton quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-07T01:16:50Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-07T01:25:38Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T01:26:28Z jainex joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:27:10Z jainex: how do i see all the commands or database with quicklisp? 2014-10-07T01:28:52Z jainex: tab button: I found it thanks 2014-10-07T01:33:32Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-07T01:36:20Z chu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-07T01:39:45Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T01:40:12Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:41:22Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:41:33Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:43:54Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:44:12Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T01:44:36Z jainex: is cl-who an outdated library 2014-10-07T01:44:42Z jainex: ? 2014-10-07T01:45:09Z froggey joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:45:22Z viaken: I think they prefer the term "stable". 2014-10-07T01:46:24Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T01:49:02Z jainex: is it? 2014-10-07T01:50:23Z jainex: -_-* guess I better find out 2014-10-07T01:50:52Z t4nk612 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T01:51:12Z aap_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T01:51:39Z drdanmaku quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-07T01:51:53Z aap_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:54:40Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T01:54:59Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:55:08Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:55:44Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:56:25Z jainex_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T01:56:56Z jainex_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-07T01:57:52Z viaken: Hey, worst case, it doesn't do what you need. There's no shortage of libraries to produce html. 2014-10-07T02:01:21Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T02:02:35Z oleo is now known as Guest49063 2014-10-07T02:02:56Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:04:19Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:05:52Z Guest49063 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:07:01Z ack006: (re-)learnt a harsh lesson today which anyone who likes lisp will recognize: _never_ put too much time or trust in a black box, even if it's got "OpenGenera" written on it 2014-10-07T02:08:17Z ack006: haven't written a single lisp form all night, just been digging thru network configs, port maps, rfcs, some wireshark hunting, all that to get past the bluddy "enter the date and time" conundrum 2014-10-07T02:08:19Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:09:28Z ack006: somehow my time server doesn't want to talk to genera, genera doesn't want to set its clock, so it's quits for me. sayoonara genera bye bye 2014-10-07T02:09:54Z timpani joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:09:55Z ack006: back to sbcl and slime 2014-10-07T02:15:40Z p_l: ack006: Genera doesn't do NTP, it does however work with old daytime iirc 2014-10-07T02:15:50Z scarygelatin joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:16:22Z p_l: guess someone will have to write that down... 2014-10-07T02:16:28Z ack006: p_l: not daytime, that was my first mistake ;-) no it's rfc 868, time protocol 2014-10-07T02:17:18Z p_l: ah, maybe. I had it running, just uncommented lines in xinetd :) 2014-10-07T02:17:24Z ack006: but somehow 10.0.0.2 (genera) broadcasts its request packet instead of addressing it to 10.0.0.1(linux box), so the server never replies 2014-10-07T02:18:47Z ack006: and whatever date/time format i enter, it always fails to set the calendar clock, even tried klingon (just joking, i looked in the source figuring out what time:parse is supposed to parse) 2014-10-07T02:19:34Z p_l: Is an alpha with Tru64, or are you running snap4? 2014-10-07T02:19:39Z ack006: snap4 2014-10-07T02:19:59Z p_l: have you made sure to run apropriately old X11? 2014-10-07T02:20:06Z p_l: (or at least X11 libs) 2014-10-07T02:20:36Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T02:20:46Z ack006: well, it appeared to work with arch's (probably the newest one can get besides git) :-) but text appears slowly 2014-10-07T02:21:10Z p_l: "appeared" meaning "you were very very lucky, and probably it was crashing hard anyway" 2014-10-07T02:21:22Z ack006: i can even enter some lisp in the debugger, but the only restart is: abort the installation. bummer. 2014-10-07T02:21:32Z p_l: grab an old Ubuntu 64bit image (9.x?) and run it in VM 2014-10-07T02:22:43Z ack006: p_l: all points back to my first remark about black boxes. i've learnt to simply forget about them. there are more inspiring things to kill brain cells over. 2014-10-07T02:22:44Z phax joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:23:55Z ack006: p_l: if there had been full source (well, there's an awful lot of source but as always it's not enough) then i'd gladly make it pretty, but now it's just a silly waste of time 2014-10-07T02:25:00Z p_l: IMHO there's enough to make it fly, but it's no short endeavour 2014-10-07T02:27:22Z ack006: p_l: sure :-) but it will probably mean poking around with a hex editor or writing some lisp(?!) to decompile the binary, only to be sued to hell and back for ip breach as thanks for your services. 2014-10-07T02:28:40Z p_l: ack006: actually, what I had in mind would have been clear of being IP breach, more so than snap4 2014-10-07T02:28:43Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-07T02:28:44Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-07T02:28:44Z ack006: much nicer to get what source there is working with slime and / or a web browser repl with multimedia presentations 2014-10-07T02:28:52Z kristof joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:29:02Z ack006: p_l: tell me more ;) 2014-10-07T02:29:32Z p_l: ack006: essentially, use the sources to write VLM from *scratch* 2014-10-07T02:29:42Z ack006: :-) 2014-10-07T02:29:51Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:29:51Z p_l: a bunch of issues belong in snap4 binary 2014-10-07T02:30:16Z p_l: which is in weird space between binary translation and compiler retarget 2014-10-07T02:30:48Z ack006: p_l: i hope there's enough source to go by. anyone had any luck extracting the tape archive from the tarball? 2014-10-07T02:31:00Z p_l: ack006: yeah 2014-10-07T02:31:15Z p_l got it working, along with the OG2 image 2014-10-07T02:31:19Z Hache_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T02:31:36Z ack006: aha 2014-10-07T02:31:44Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:32:05Z p_l: should one day publish fixed working instructions... 2014-10-07T02:32:35Z ack006: p_l: i was hoping to help out with that, but got majorly sidetracked by not even getting the thing to boot 2014-10-07T02:33:00Z sword joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:33:05Z p_l: essentially, the tape archive in the ISO image is a Genera tape, and can be uncompressed by any working Genera install 2014-10-07T02:33:08Z ack006: of course i could have followed mainstream instructions and ran it in a vm with old x etc. but i thought there'd be an easier way 2014-10-07T02:33:23Z ack006: p_l: chicken'n'egg ;) 2014-10-07T02:33:30Z p_l: can be a physical Genera install, as long as it can access it 2014-10-07T02:33:36Z p_l: (for example, NFS) 2014-10-07T02:33:55Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:34:55Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:35:11Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T02:37:55Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:38:14Z phax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T02:39:09Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:40:13Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:40:52Z yuv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:41:38Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T02:42:29Z beach joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:42:31Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:42:42Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-10-07T02:44:01Z drmeister: Hello beach. 2014-10-07T02:44:49Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:44:51Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:44:51Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T02:46:02Z impulse joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:46:31Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:49:49Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:49:50Z ynniv: ack006: have you tried my automated (vagrant) vm? https://github.com/ynniv/OpenGenera 2014-10-07T02:52:19Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:52:58Z yuv- joined #lisp 2014-10-07T02:55:20Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T02:57:55Z p_l: ynniv: it won't build anymore, iirc 2014-10-07T02:58:04Z p_l: (thanks to glibc) 2014-10-07T02:58:56Z ack006: ynniv: i'm going to try one more thing: send a 'time' packet to genera with socat or something when it starts 2014-10-07T02:59:37Z ack006: wireshark says that the time request which genera sends is malformed, maybe that's why the server doesn't reply to it 2014-10-07T03:00:12Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:01:06Z ack006: hihi i can ping genera while it's starting, that's something ;) 2014-10-07T03:01:16Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-10-07T03:01:43Z ack006: should have tried that right in the beginning 2014-10-07T03:03:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T03:05:53Z ynniv: p_l: I’m not sure what that means. OpenGenera only works on an old version of X11, hence my scripts require Ubuntu 7 2014-10-07T03:06:35Z ynniv: for the vm image, that is 2014-10-07T03:12:29Z slyrus: just curious... have any of the folks running opengenera in recent years actually done anything interesting/useful with it? 2014-10-07T03:13:57Z zeitue quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T03:15:44Z ynniv: not me :) 2014-10-07T03:16:15Z milosn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T03:17:08Z milosn joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:18:02Z jainex quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-07T03:25:44Z Svetlana joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:26:40Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:31:20Z DKordic`` left #lisp 2014-10-07T03:32:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:33:44Z rme joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:42:24Z dented42_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:45:08Z dented42_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T03:45:21Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T03:47:40Z drmeister: beach: Did you see the micro-profiling/timing data that I posted last night? Summary: heap-based operations take 50x longer than stack based operations. 2014-10-07T03:48:20Z emma joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:48:32Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T03:52:35Z Zhivago: Unsurprising, since the heap is fragmented and involves searching for holes. 2014-10-07T03:52:45Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:53:51Z drmeister: I didn't provide enough detail: this is with a compacting garbage collector and allocations are simple pointer bumping. These timings include the cost of garbage collection. 2014-10-07T03:54:33Z pjb: - 2014-10-07T03:55:22Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T03:56:09Z drmeister: brb 2014-10-07T03:56:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:59:24Z kuanyui joined #lisp 2014-10-07T03:59:56Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:01:33Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:02:18Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:03:38Z work_op quit (Changing host) 2014-10-07T04:03:38Z work_op joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:03:55Z nyef: Mmm. And stack-based GC is "free", more or less, right? 2014-10-07T04:04:07Z Zhivago: It depends on if it involves moving things about. 2014-10-07T04:04:21Z Zhivago: Some stack based GCs are compacting. 2014-10-07T04:04:22Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T04:04:54Z nyef: True, but the usual implementations are just a pointer-bump (or straight-up inclusion in the frame allocation) on cons and discard the space when returning from the stack frame. 2014-10-07T04:06:52Z CrazyWoods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T04:10:25Z beach: drmeister: I didn't see it. That would explain a large part of your performance issues. 2014-10-07T04:21:26Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:22:49Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:26:31Z drmeister: back 2014-10-07T04:26:36Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T04:27:14Z drmeister: Yes 2014-10-07T04:27:48Z c107 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T04:28:54Z drmeister: Even inside tight loops, the compiled code I generate allocates activation frames. 2014-10-07T04:30:15Z kristof: loose loops 2014-10-07T04:30:25Z drmeister: If I those bindings moved to the stack - voila - the code could run 50x faster. 2014-10-07T04:31:03Z drmeister: sink cpus 2014-10-07T04:37:52Z MutSbeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T04:38:18Z drmeister: "Voila" is french for "beach puts hundreds of hours into developing a highly optimizing compiler called Cleavir" 2014-10-07T04:40:59Z drmeister: What is the CL function for copying a file with one pathname into another? 2014-10-07T04:42:05Z drmeister: And why did the wise CL architects not call it "copy-file" - argh. 2014-10-07T04:42:33Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T04:45:05Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-07T04:47:13Z beach: Is there such a function? 2014-10-07T04:47:19Z kristof: cp 2014-10-07T04:47:24Z kristof: it's in the unix standard 2014-10-07T04:47:31Z Bicyclidine: cheeky 2014-10-07T04:47:40Z kristof: Justifiably so. :) 2014-10-07T04:47:48Z kristof: Calling out to the system is not a bad idea. 2014-10-07T04:48:23Z Bicyclidine: well, there's rename-file, but i don't see any cp 2014-10-07T04:48:30Z beach: kristof: Bah, you assume that your system is a Unix-like. 2014-10-07T04:48:33Z Bicyclidine: i mean, beyond doing it yourself 2014-10-07T04:48:40Z Bicyclidine: and doesn't that sound fun 2014-10-07T04:51:43Z nyef quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T04:51:49Z ack006 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T05:02:39Z beach: drmeister: Actually, Cleavir is not the compiler. Cleavir is (or rather will be) a toolbox containing the tools that allow the creator of an implementation to put together a highly optimizing compiler for his/her implementation with not too much effort. 2014-10-07T05:03:34Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-10-07T05:03:37Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2014-10-07T05:03:37Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-10-07T05:06:36Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-10-07T05:07:45Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-10-07T05:08:20Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T05:08:35Z beach: I still have no idea how to provide "generic" backends that are meant for particular processor architectures, but that can be customized according to the register use and function-call protocol of each implementation. 2014-10-07T05:09:44Z kuanyui quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-07T05:13:35Z castillo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T05:16:02Z kristof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T05:17:20Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-10-07T05:18:29Z castillo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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question 2014-10-07T08:47:09Z stassats: you should have started with the question then 2014-10-07T08:47:12Z Zhivago: You might try in #basic. 2014-10-07T08:47:36Z shka: pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a type in the lisp context? 2014-10-07T08:47:48Z stassats: clhs glossary/type 2014-10-07T08:47:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_t.htm#type 2014-10-07T08:48:52Z Zhivago: A type describes a set of potential values. 2014-10-07T08:49:01Z Zhivago: Like (integer 10 20). 2014-10-07T08:49:28Z shka: how this information is stored in dynamic language variable? 2014-10-07T08:49:37Z Zhivago: It isn't. 2014-10-07T08:49:43Z shka: oh, ok 2014-10-07T08:49:45Z stassats: it doesn't have to be 2014-10-07T08:49:49Z Zhivago: You might be thinking of class. 2014-10-07T08:50:43Z Zhivago: A value knows what class it has, which allows it to compute a semi-minimal type for itself. 2014-10-07T08:50:49Z stassats: and it's values that have a type, not variables 2014-10-07T08:51:04Z stassats: although variables may be protected by type checks to hold values of a particular type 2014-10-07T08:51:16Z Zhivago: Well, values have class, variables may have type constraints. 2014-10-07T08:51:55Z stassats: and specialized arrays do not actually have clos classes 2014-10-07T08:52:35Z zacharias quit (Quit: Bye!) 2014-10-07T08:52:47Z Zhivago: Sure they do. 2014-10-07T08:53:06Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-07T08:53:09Z stassats: not specific enough to access them 2014-10-07T08:53:11Z Zhivago: Try class-of on one. 2014-10-07T08:53:26Z Zhivago: They have clos classes that are specific enough to access them. 2014-10-07T08:53:59Z Zhivago: Those classes do not necessarily reflect the lower bound of the type constraint on the array constructor. 2014-10-07T08:54:24Z shka: Zhivago: so, what happens here is that class provides means to generate type? 2014-10-07T08:54:39Z Zhivago: You say, "give me an array that can at least hold values of type foo". 2014-10-07T08:54:49Z stassats: Zhivago: it can have just the standard class of ARRAY or VECTOR 2014-10-07T08:55:02Z Zhivago: stassats: Sure, that's what T is for. 2014-10-07T08:55:25Z stassats: but a specialized array cannot be accessed the same way as a T vector 2014-10-07T08:55:36Z stassats: a bit array and a byte array are packed differently 2014-10-07T08:55:46Z Zhivago: They might be. 2014-10-07T08:55:52Z Zhivago: In which case they'd have different classes. 2014-10-07T08:56:01Z stassats: they wouldn't 2014-10-07T08:56:07Z shka: heh 2014-10-07T08:56:09Z stassats: there are no such classes defined 2014-10-07T08:56:26Z Zhivago: How do you know? 2014-10-07T08:56:27Z shka: *trying to get answer to a basic question on #lisp* ^^ 2014-10-07T08:56:32Z stassats: Zhivago: i checked with CLHS 2014-10-07T08:56:41Z kiuma joined #lisp 2014-10-07T08:56:47Z kiuma: hello 2014-10-07T08:56:51Z stassats: and to illustrate, let's take ECL: (class-of (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) => # 2014-10-07T08:56:57Z shka: kiuma: good morning, sir 2014-10-07T08:56:58Z stassats: (array-element-type (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) => EXT:BYTE8 2014-10-07T08:57:05Z kiuma: :) 2014-10-07T08:57:13Z moore33: shka: Stick around, you might learn something. 2014-10-07T08:57:13Z minion: moore33, memo from pjb: CL displaced arrays are pointers made correctly. Just use them! 2014-10-07T08:57:28Z shka: moore33: i'm trying :) 2014-10-07T08:57:56Z Zhivago: (class-of (make-array 100 :element-type 'bit)) 2014-10-07T08:57:57Z Zhivago: # 2014-10-07T08:58:15Z moore33: Another gem from pjb. 2014-10-07T08:58:27Z Zhivago: Like I was saying -- if they have different representations they'll have different classes. 2014-10-07T08:58:36Z stassats: Zhivago: there is a class for bit-vector 2014-10-07T08:58:39Z stassats: but that's about it 2014-10-07T08:58:49Z Zhivago: In ECLs case, it looks like it represents those using elements of type T. 2014-10-07T08:58:51Z nalssee quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T08:58:55Z stassats: it does not 2014-10-07T08:59:00Z stassats: they are specialized 2014-10-07T08:59:16Z stassats: array specialized isn't tied into classes 2014-10-07T08:59:29Z stassats: specialization 2014-10-07T09:00:03Z Zhivago: If that's true, it's very broken. 2014-10-07T09:00:32Z stassats: except that it isn't, according to the standard 2014-10-07T09:00:43Z Zhivago: By broken, I mean the standard. 2014-10-07T09:01:12Z moore33: stassats: Agreed, I was recently looking through CLHS, thinking it would be nice to write methods on specialized arrays. 2014-10-07T09:01:22Z stassats: first of all, specialization is implementation dependent 2014-10-07T09:01:25Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:01:28Z stassats: and architecture dependent 2014-10-07T09:01:36Z huza joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:01:36Z stassats: so, writing methods on them isn't that great of an idea 2014-10-07T09:01:44Z Zhivago: And that's what system-classes are for. 2014-10-07T09:02:37Z stassats: to work, only AREF needs to know the actual type 2014-10-07T09:02:47Z frkout_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T09:02:50Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:03:04Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:03:20Z Grue`: if it's impossible to deduce subtypes in general then how would method specialization deduce subclass relation on arrays spealizing on some types 2014-10-07T09:03:38Z stassats: it is possible, it's just not defined 2014-10-07T09:03:59Z stassats: a particular array has a specific type, but there are just no corresponding classes defined 2014-10-07T09:04:07Z Krystof: well, there's more impossibility 2014-10-07T09:04:07Z Grue`: deftype is turing complete 2014-10-07T09:04:35Z Krystof: ask your implementation for (make-array 3 :element-type '(and (satisfies evenp) (satisfies primep))) 2014-10-07T09:04:53Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:05:01Z frkout quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T09:05:01Z Zhivago: krystof: It can always punt to T. 2014-10-07T09:05:13Z stassats: Grue`: but array specialization isn't 2014-10-07T09:05:32Z Krystof: Zhivago: no it can't 2014-10-07T09:05:42Z Krystof: (I mean, in theory it can't. In practice it will) 2014-10-07T09:06:06Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T09:06:28Z Krystof: the only item in that type is 2. upgraded-array-element-type must return the "most specialized array representation capable of holding items of the type" 2014-10-07T09:06:44Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:06:44Z stassats: why can't it? it just has to be consistent, a specialized array and a declared array have to be accessible 2014-10-07T09:07:03Z Zhivago: Krystof: Why not? 2 is a member of T. 2014-10-07T09:07:33Z Krystof: the _most_ specialized array 2014-10-07T09:07:59Z Krystof: I suppose in the absence of any numeric specialized arrays other than bit-vectors you could have an implementaiton which upgrades to T 2014-10-07T09:08:32Z Zhivago: Ah, well, the standard is pretty broken on arrays. :) More fuel for that fire. 2014-10-07T09:08:47Z stassats: i wouldn't call not being able to work with SATISFIES broken 2014-10-07T09:09:01Z stassats: since SATISFIES breaks everything 2014-10-07T09:09:13Z moore33: I suppose we should have added some language somewhere about "the most specialized representation for which the second value of (subtypep type (upgraded-array-element-type type)) returns T." 2014-10-07T09:09:18Z Krystof: sure. I'd have liked an explicit exception to satisfies types 2014-10-07T09:09:19Z Zhivago: The broken bit is the 'most specialized' bit. 2014-10-07T09:09:24Z Krystof: yeah, it's all moore33's fault 2014-10-07T09:09:39Z moore33: I must have been asleep in that meeting. 2014-10-07T09:09:46Z Krystof: can I blame you for the pretty-printing problem I found yesterday? 2014-10-07T09:10:14Z moore33: Krystof: You can, but at the time I wasn't in a position to argue with Dick Waters :) 2014-10-07T09:10:38Z moore33: But if it makes you feel better, go ahead. 2014-10-07T09:12:09Z Krystof: meh, it's a much smaller problem than some of the others 2014-10-07T09:12:18Z Krystof: fuel for a totally pointless CLtL3, I suppose 2014-10-07T09:12:32Z stassats: and SATISFIES is nothing, try undefined types 2014-10-07T09:13:26Z Krystof: I can live with undefined types because there's language somewhere that says that type meanings must stay the same between $TIME1 and $TIME2 2014-10-07T09:17:10Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:22:58Z przl_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:23:49Z schaueho joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:25:30Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T09:26:02Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-10-07T09:26:28Z theos joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:26:55Z moore33: Krystof: I've thought for a long time that a Talmudic critical edition of the spec would be a good thing, with all the commentary and hermenutics in the margins... 2014-10-07T09:27:10Z moore33: Of course, that would be no big deal on the Web these days. 2014-10-07T09:27:27Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T09:27:51Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T09:28:01Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:28:13Z stassats: i don't think there is a problem in interpreting the standard, the problem is to get all the implementors to agree on one interpretation 2014-10-07T09:28:23Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:29:52Z shka: heh 2014-10-07T09:30:12Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T09:30:19Z shka still does not understand class/type relationship ;-) 2014-10-07T09:30:30Z Krystof: all classes are types; not all types are classes 2014-10-07T09:30:32Z Krystof: problems solved 2014-10-07T09:30:36Z stassats: they aren't rally all that related 2014-10-07T09:31:36Z shka: Krystof: and that's when i started to think that each class generates it's own type ^^ 2014-10-07T09:32:26Z fe[nl]ix: minion: thwap to shka 2014-10-07T09:32:26Z minion: shka: direct your attention towards thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 2014-10-07T09:32:46Z Krystof: shka: that is correct; each class is its own type 2014-10-07T09:33:17Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:33:20Z shka: ok 2014-10-07T09:33:52Z shka: so it is really not that complicated or different 2014-10-07T09:33:57Z stassats: well, the class object itself has a different type, to be clear 2014-10-07T09:35:22Z Krystof: no 2014-10-07T09:35:41Z Krystof: the class itself designates a type 2014-10-07T09:36:19Z stassats: yes, but the way you said "each class is its own type" that the class object is of the same type as class 2014-10-07T09:36:55Z Krystof: ah, right. I would have said "is of its own type", I think, if I'd meant that 2014-10-07T09:37:06Z Krystof: but yes, that is a possible source of confusion :) (I'm confused now) 2014-10-07T09:37:28Z stassats: that's the goal, more confusion 2014-10-07T09:37:32Z stassats: minion: chant 2014-10-07T09:37:32Z minion: MORE CONFUSION 2014-10-07T09:38:54Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:38:57Z shka: stassats: i knew it! 2014-10-07T09:39:14Z shka: minion: chant 2014-10-07T09:39:14Z minion: MORE CONFUSION 2014-10-07T09:39:20Z shka: usefull command 2014-10-07T09:41:25Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:43:18Z Subfusc_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:43:30Z johs_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:43:36Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:44:47Z Subfusc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2014-10-07T09:44:47Z ehu quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-10-07T09:46:49Z johs quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-10-07T09:47:05Z mtd quit (Write error: Broken pipe) 2014-10-07T09:51:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:51:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2014-10-07T09:51:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:52:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-10-07T09:55:53Z ehu_ is now known as ehu 2014-10-07T10:02:25Z kiuma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T10:05:04Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:09:42Z nalssee quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T10:15:36Z kiuma joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:16:56Z yati joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:22:06Z White_Flame quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2014-10-07T10:22:22Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:23:51Z karupa is now known as zz_karupa 2014-10-07T10:25:13Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:25:47Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:26:36Z jewel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T10:26:53Z zickzackv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:29:13Z johs_ is now known as johs 2014-10-07T10:29:36Z neoesque quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-10-07T10:31:09Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T10:33:38Z nalssee quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T10:36:20Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:38:04Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T10:39:22Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:43:03Z pillton: Xach: Thanks for the dist update. 2014-10-07T10:47:33Z Cymew: Anyone have a procedure for dumping a new world from a running SBCL, syncing all running threads and stuff? A simple invocation of SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE indicate further work is needed. 2014-10-07T10:47:54Z Cymew: ...I have done this but it was years ago... 2014-10-07T10:48:14Z pjb: What is "syncing all running threads"? 2014-10-07T10:49:46Z pjb: That said, there are Linux tools to suspend (and migrate) processes. They could be used to save lisp images wholesale. 2014-10-07T10:50:16Z kenanb joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:50:29Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T10:50:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T10:51:08Z pjb: http://code.google.com/p/cryopid/ 2014-10-07T10:52:15Z frkout_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T10:52:41Z frkout joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:54:03Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-10-07T10:54:16Z movbh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z hitecnologys quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z zeebrah quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z msx quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z _d3f quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z spacebat quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z Grue` quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z jlarocco quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z dfox quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z Jubb quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z hellome quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:54:31Z rick-monster quit (*.net *.split) 2014-10-07T10:56:09Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:57:18Z dfox joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:57:25Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T10:58:17Z Cymew: pjb: SBCL throws me into the debugger and say I have multiple running threads and so it can not dump. I don't know the details of it. 2014-10-07T10:58:55Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T10:59:07Z Cymew: cryopid sounds like a really cool (pun not intended) project, btw! 2014-10-07T10:59:18Z stassats: you cannot save an image with threads running 2014-10-07T11:00:05Z Cymew: Yeah, that's basically what I found. So, how to you stop them? Aren't there always more than one threads running in a modern SBCL? 2014-10-07T11:01:05Z kenanb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T11:04:22Z madrik quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T11:05:18Z nalssee joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:05:44Z Svetlana quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:06:02Z Svetlana joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:06:36Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:06:54Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z msx joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z spacebat joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z Jubb joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:25Z hellome joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:34Z _d3f quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-10-07T11:08:34Z hellome quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-10-07T11:08:51Z _d3f joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:08:56Z nalssee quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-07T11:09:09Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:10:07Z farhaven joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:10:18Z pjb: There's no fundamental impossibility to save an image with threads running. This is just a limitation of sbcl (and possibly other implementations). 2014-10-07T11:11:37Z stassats: it's a limitation of the OS 2014-10-07T11:11:42Z pjb: (map nil 'bt:destroy-thread (bt:all-threads)) ; perhaps not, you'd want to skip the current thread, or the main thread, or do that from the main thread. 2014-10-07T11:11:58Z pjb: It's a limitation of SBCL. 2014-10-07T11:12:17Z stassats: except that it isn't 2014-10-07T11:12:18Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T11:12:45Z simulacrum joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:12:58Z pjb: The implementation could easily take note of the state of a thread, and create new threads in the same state when loading the image. 2014-10-07T11:13:06Z pjb: Well, ok, "easily". 2014-10-07T11:13:20Z pjb: At least, the implementation has all the information available to do that. 2014-10-07T11:13:26Z stassats: not really 2014-10-07T11:13:28Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:13:37Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2014-10-07T11:13:37Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:14:37Z pjb: And beside, it doesn't have to use OS threads. CMUCL has green threads, IIRC. 2014-10-07T11:14:48Z moore33: pjb: Which kind of suck. 2014-10-07T11:15:12Z kirin` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T11:15:29Z pjb: stassats: I could even save the state of threads, and restore it, in conforming common lisp! 2014-10-07T11:15:51Z stassats: please do then 2014-10-07T11:16:10Z pjb: (but only for threads compiled with my own CL-STEPPER like package). 2014-10-07T11:16:15Z kirin` joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:16:21Z Shinmera: How would you go about pausing/resuming, say, a socket? 2014-10-07T11:16:31Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:16:33Z pjb: Shinmera: this is not the question. 2014-10-07T11:16:43Z stassats: Shinmera: you can't, the same goes for files, or anything else 2014-10-07T11:17:26Z pjb: Shinmera: but a lot of implementations are able to do that for the files. For sockets, anytimes you can have them disconnected, so you only have to send SIGPIPE on them when launching the image. 2014-10-07T11:17:52Z pjb: The application should have a session layer to deal with that, and reconnect. 2014-10-07T11:18:03Z kiuma quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T11:18:37Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:18:45Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:20:34Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:20:44Z Cymew: I take that discussion as a "no" when it comes to the question of anyone have a procedure they use for dumping images. ;) 2014-10-07T11:20:52Z devon joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:21:29Z pjb: I gave you the form to kill all the threads. 2014-10-07T11:21:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:21:33Z knob joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:22:44Z pjb: (progn (map nil (lambda (th) (unless (eq th (bt:current-thread)) (bt:destroy-thread th))) (bt:all-threads)) (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "image")) 2014-10-07T11:23:11Z stassats: except that killing threads isn't safe 2014-10-07T11:23:46Z pjb: Cymew: but actually, I'm spoiled on clisp, so I would just do (when (zerop (sb-posix:fork)) (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "image")) ; so the problem doesn't occur. 2014-10-07T11:24:00Z pjb: stassats: it's perfectly safe, when you exit just after. 2014-10-07T11:24:14Z stassats: it may be in the middle of something 2014-10-07T11:24:22Z pjb: It may. 2014-10-07T11:24:39Z pjb: And see how it matters, since we're killing the image anyways! 2014-10-07T11:24:41Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:25:03Z pjb: But that's why I prefer to fork first. 2014-10-07T11:25:14Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T11:25:14Z stassats: it may damage the memory which is about to be saved, or a database file 2014-10-07T11:25:41Z pjb: IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WITH (EXIT). 2014-10-07T11:25:57Z stassats: it does... 2014-10-07T11:26:04Z moore33: pjb: And when you restart your "image?" 2014-10-07T11:26:15Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:26:23Z Cymew: pjb: Sorry I wasn't intending it as your answer wasn't there, just that it doesn't sound like something people usually do. Your suggestion sounds quite workable, and along the lines I was thinking. It did look a bit brutal, though. 2014-10-07T11:27:11Z pjb: Cymew: if you want some sweetness, then implement something like cryopid, or some application specific code. 2014-10-07T11:27:51Z Cymew: I guess I have to, or skip dumping and start up an app by asdf loading all the required stuff and distribute it all. 2014-10-07T11:28:09Z pjb: Loading asdf should not start threads. 2014-10-07T11:28:17Z moore33: pjb: Wait... are you saying that the fork() manages to clean up the other threads that were running in the parent? That might be true, but any of the non-surviving threads might have been doing something unsafe. 2014-10-07T11:28:38Z stassats: Cymew: just load without any threads and start them up when the saved image starts up 2014-10-07T11:28:38Z pjb: moore33: the threads are still live in the parent process. 2014-10-07T11:29:03Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T11:29:25Z moore33: pjb: Yes, but that doesn't mean that their work was finished in the child. 2014-10-07T11:29:32Z Cymew: Hmm. Didn't Fare say his newfangled uiop would help with this? Time to go read up on that methinks. 2014-10-07T11:29:45Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:29:47Z pjb: moore33: think more about it. 2014-10-07T11:29:49Z stassats: you may want to read up on pclsring 2014-10-07T11:29:57Z moore33: plb: You too :) 2014-10-07T11:29:59Z Cymew: That's a classic 2014-10-07T11:30:32Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:31:47Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:31:56Z moore33: "There are at least two serious problems with the semantics of fork() in a multi-threaded 2014-10-07T11:31:56Z moore33: program." 2014-10-07T11:32:50Z Baggers: Hi folks, do any lispworks people know how do you compile without the ide switching to the output pane? 2014-10-07T11:33:20Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:33:55Z pjb is going to save his image for a later relaunch. 2014-10-07T11:33:57Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:35:13Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:35:57Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:36:27Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:38:56Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:39:41Z thepreacher joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:39:44Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:39:50Z thepreacher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:42:25Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-07T11:44:07Z kuzy000 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:44:10Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T11:44:10Z kuzy000_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T11:45:09Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-10-07T11:47:13Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:52:22Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-07T11:56:12Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:01:41Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:04:08Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:04:17Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:10:42Z przerull quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:12:03Z TheMoonMaster joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:16:03Z cmack` joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:18:08Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:18:29Z cmack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:18:49Z rme joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:19:03Z neoesque joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:20:52Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:23:43Z przerull joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:24:59Z thawes quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T12:25:58Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:25:58Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:26:32Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:30:39Z neoesque quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:31:41Z thawes quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T12:32:05Z kiuma joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:32:14Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:32:45Z Guest8925 left #lisp 2014-10-07T12:33:31Z Hache_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:34:12Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-10-07T12:39:03Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:42:30Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:44:01Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T12:45:34Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:48:38Z huza quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-10-07T12:48:39Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T12:48:48Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:53:06Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T12:53:33Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:54:52Z yati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:55:07Z knosys joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:56:57Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T12:56:59Z chrnybo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T12:58:35Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:00:00Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-07T13:01:02Z aftershave joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:09:51Z zeebrah_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:11:47Z zeebrah quit (Ping timeout: 342 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:12:56Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:14:01Z nyef joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:17:34Z tkhoa2711 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:19:21Z KarlDscc joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:20:26Z loke_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:21:14Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:21:41Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:23:19Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T13:23:32Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:23:47Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:25:18Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:28:30Z phao joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:29:12Z wizzo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T13:30:00Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:30:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:31:27Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-07T13:31:28Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-07T13:34:20Z Blaguvest quit 2014-10-07T13:41:05Z rme joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:42:01Z pranavrc quit 2014-10-07T13:42:46Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:43:24Z Baggers: yo, does nayone know of a free common lisp implementation with good thread support on windows/osx and linux? 2014-10-07T13:43:33Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-07T13:43:36Z drmeister: ECL has a bewildering variety of filetypes in COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME. :fasl, :shared-library, :static-library, :data, :data, :c, :h, :object, :program. Currently Clasp has LLVM bitcode files (.bc) and dynamically loaded libraries (.bundle/.so) and object files (.o). Does anyone have any ideas how to map ECL file types to Clasp? This is to get ASDF 2014-10-07T13:43:36Z drmeister: working in Clasp. 2014-10-07T13:43:44Z nell joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:45:36Z drmeister: A LLVM bitcode file is like a .o object file on linux but it requires some compilation by the LLVM library after it's loaded. Clasp's COMPILE-FILE compiles Common Lisp to bitcode files. They can be LOADed back into Lisp so they could be :fasl files. 2014-10-07T13:45:56Z stassats: Baggers: SBCL and Clozure CL 2014-10-07T13:46:33Z zeebrah_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2014-10-07T13:46:55Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:47:03Z drmeister: The dynamically loaded libraries (.bundle[OS X]/.so[Linux]) are what I get when I link a bunch of bitcode files together and inline a bunch of C++ functions and then link with the system "ld" linker and write out a dynamic library. These can also be loaded back into Clasp and so they could be :fasl files as well. 2014-10-07T13:47:05Z Baggers: stassats: cheers but sbcl requires compile flag to get support on osx 2014-10-07T13:47:16Z Baggers: good to know clozure will work though 2014-10-07T13:47:25Z p_l: drmeister: if the end result acts like a FASL, make it a FASL. :shared-library, :static-library, :c, :h and :object are quite ECL-specific 2014-10-07T13:47:26Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:47:33Z p_l: but :shared-library, since you have it, should be separate from :fasl 2014-10-07T13:47:35Z stassats: Baggers: well, it's easy to compile 2014-10-07T13:47:43Z p_l: drmeister: notice that you can LOAD a source file 2014-10-07T13:48:25Z drmeister: Yes, I can LOAD source files, bitcode files and .bundle/.so files. 2014-10-07T13:48:29Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:48:35Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:48:37Z drmeister: Clasp can LOAD these three types of files. 2014-10-07T13:48:43Z Baggers: stassats: Cheer 2014-10-07T13:48:51Z Baggers: #cheers 2014-10-07T13:49:06Z p_l: so I would separate it into "LOAD uses files that are of class 'loadable-files'", said class includes :fasl, :shared-library, :source 2014-10-07T13:49:36Z AeroNotix_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:49:41Z p_l: drmeister: :fasl would be effect of some minimal/smaller compilation, shared-object would be a separate thing 2014-10-07T13:50:05Z fantazo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:50:38Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:51:56Z drmeister: Hmmm - not to argue, but from working with ASDF I'm thinking that the .bundle/.so files should be the :fasl file and I don't know what the bitcode files should be. This is the source of my confusion. 2014-10-07T13:52:06Z drmeister prepares to lay in wait to ambush Fare 2014-10-07T13:52:38Z drmeister then remembers that there is a thing called "email". 2014-10-07T13:53:08Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-10-07T13:53:57Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T13:54:18Z stassats: there's also minion 2014-10-07T13:58:13Z Baggers: has sbcl merge the windows threads in? It seems it may be a seperate repo for the win32 threads 2014-10-07T13:58:35Z drmeister: Yeah - I sent off an email. I love the immediacy of IRC. 2014-10-07T13:58:48Z stassats: Baggers: yes, a long time ago 2014-10-07T13:59:05Z Baggers: stassats: shows how well I am keeping up with things :) thanks 2014-10-07T13:59:06Z jusss` joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:00:40Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:05:03Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T14:05:32Z Grue`: Baggers: don't blame yourself, it certainly wasn't advertised all that widely 2014-10-07T14:05:50Z stassats: we didn't have enough money to run TV ads, sorry 2014-10-07T14:06:16Z thawes__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:10:12Z thawes_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:11:07Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:14:44Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:15:00Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:15:54Z AeroNotix joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:19:09Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:19:26Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2014-10-07T14:22:47Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:22:55Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:23:28Z thawes__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T14:24:23Z kcj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T14:24:48Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:25:49Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:26:47Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:28:52Z ustunozgur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:29:24Z drmeister: Who watches TV these days anyway? And when you do you PVR it and skip the commercials. 2014-10-07T14:30:12Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:30:35Z nyef: TV? Isn't that the other name for the screen thingy that hooks up to my PS3? 2014-10-07T14:33:59Z drmeister: No, that's your visa-screen. TV was a thing that corporations of days past used to use to sell feminine hygiene products, autocars and cigarettes. 2014-10-07T14:35:00Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:36:06Z nyef: Ohh... You mean back when Common Lisp was still a viable programming language, rather than a historical curiosity? d-: 2014-10-07T14:37:42Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:38:11Z kiuma quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:38:28Z thawes quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:41:05Z drmeister: Nyef: really vague question: Is there anyone who still fully understands how the SBCL compiler works? 2014-10-07T14:41:58Z stassats: still? was there ever? 2014-10-07T14:42:36Z futuremint joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:42:37Z pt1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:43:25Z Xach: Hmm, are there any circumstances where default-initargs are looked up during change-class? 2014-10-07T14:43:58Z stassats: offhand, i don't think so 2014-10-07T14:44:00Z nyef: drmeister: I don't know that anyone fully understood how Python worked after about the first six months. 2014-10-07T14:44:15Z stassats: but it needs to be checked 2014-10-07T14:44:41Z nyef: ... Wha? That was odd. 2014-10-07T14:44:52Z futuremint: I'm a newbie, and having some issues with the type specifiers in clsql. trying to use a date type in a view class with MySQL and getting "Unown type specifier" any suggestions? 2014-10-07T14:45:06Z stassats: mop u-i-f-d-c 2014-10-07T14:45:07Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for u-i-f-d-c. 2014-10-07T14:45:36Z Xach: futuremint: I don't know, sorry. You might have better (if less interactive) luck with the clsql mailing list. 2014-10-07T14:45:45Z stassats: clhs u-i-f-d-c 2014-10-07T14:45:45Z specbot: update-instance-for-different-class: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_update.htm 2014-10-07T14:45:59Z futuremint: Xach: thanks! 2014-10-07T14:46:03Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:46:46Z stassats: Xach: doesn't look like it 2014-10-07T14:48:10Z Xach: stassats: thanks. 2014-10-07T14:48:23Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T14:50:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:54:53Z kiuma joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:55:07Z Xach: futuremint: it might also be useful to show your exact code 2014-10-07T14:56:00Z stassats: using the right package would be a good start 2014-10-07T14:56:52Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T14:57:28Z oleo is now known as Guest59953 2014-10-07T14:57:52Z Guest59953 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T14:58:17Z futuremint: Xach: thanks, I think I'll just reply to my own clsql e-mail. its just a basic def-view-class. Select works with integer & string types, but when I add the date type it errors. 2014-10-07T14:59:46Z Grue`: futuremint: I used :db-type "bigint" to save datetimes 2014-10-07T14:59:58Z Grue`: and saved them as integer 2014-10-07T15:00:13Z Grue`: but there's probably a better way 2014-10-07T15:01:10Z Grue`: CL doesn't really have a date type so it would have to be represented as an int in Lisp anyway 2014-10-07T15:01:12Z futuremint: Grue`, this is a db that already exists, I'm just pulling data out of it right now to try it out. Its just a MySQL "date" field (with no time component) 2014-10-07T15:01:40Z shka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T15:02:07Z futuremint: Grue`, yeah... I guess I could just pull it out as a string and split it out (they're ISO 8601 formatted) 2014-10-07T15:02:18Z nyef: Too bad you're not using PostgreSQL, that Just Works for dates. 2014-10-07T15:02:40Z Grue`: well if there's an existing database, it's hard to switch 2014-10-07T15:02:47Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:03:00Z nyef: True. 2014-10-07T15:03:07Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:03:43Z eudoxia: gonna plug pgloader for dim https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader 2014-10-07T15:04:18Z stassats: that's a bit harsh way to fix a unknown type specifier problem 2014-10-07T15:04:26Z jainex joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:04:54Z jainex: what do people normally use to build a website using lisp 2014-10-07T15:05:01Z stassats: hunchentoot 2014-10-07T15:05:13Z eudoxia: jainex: caveman2 or ningle depending on what you want 2014-10-07T15:05:22Z eudoxia: ningle is pretty micro, caveman2 is more like django 2014-10-07T15:05:29Z eudoxia: and cl-closure-template for templates, usually 2014-10-07T15:05:41Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:06:09Z nyef: jainex: I usually just build out a JSON API and let someone else build the website. 2014-10-07T15:06:35Z stassats: minion: advice on indirection? 2014-10-07T15:06:36Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything. 2014-10-07T15:06:46Z jainex: alright thanks. 2014-10-07T15:06:50Z nyef: minion: advice on many? 2014-10-07T15:06:50Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything. 2014-10-07T15:06:52Z nyef: Hrm. 2014-10-07T15:07:19Z stassats: minion: advice on something? 2014-10-07T15:07:20Z minion: You can't expect automated advice for everything. 2014-10-07T15:07:23Z nyef: I used to have the advice db bookmarked somewhere, but I don't remember where. 2014-10-07T15:07:24Z stassats: ok 2014-10-07T15:07:41Z nyef: minion: Advice on compiler? 2014-10-07T15:07:41Z minion: #11907: Looking for a compiler bug is the strategy of LAST resort. LAST resort. 2014-10-07T15:07:46Z nyef: Okay, that much at least works. 2014-10-07T15:07:49Z stassats: nyef: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/master/minion/advice 2014-10-07T15:08:10Z Grue`: oh wow hunchentoot is acting funky for me today http://i.imgur.com/cvSNWNk.png 2014-10-07T15:08:21Z futuremint: nyef, I've considered switching this DB over, its not very big and only one company uses it :) 2014-10-07T15:08:44Z stassats: Grue`: thanks for your password 2014-10-07T15:09:16Z Grue`: it's heartbleeding! 2014-10-07T15:09:20Z thawes__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:09:40Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T15:10:02Z thawes_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T15:10:05Z thawes joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:10:11Z futuremint: its a Ruby on Rails app on MySQL that I've been "maintaining" for them for years, which really means "forced upgrades every 6 months" 2014-10-07T15:10:13Z varjag quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T15:11:06Z futuremint: I figure I can replace it piece by piece w/hunchentoot and something like caveman2 (or roll my own) and then not have nearly as much upgrade headaches 2014-10-07T15:11:24Z stassats: because it's not being updated as often? 2014-10-07T15:12:13Z Grue`: oh great, I have CrashPlan running on this exact same port 2014-10-07T15:12:21Z Grue`: 4242, what a coincidence 2014-10-07T15:12:40Z stassats: how could you start hunchentoot on it then? 2014-10-07T15:12:41Z futuremint: there is much more of a "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" attitude with CL :) 2014-10-07T15:12:59Z Xach: "if it is broken, rationalize it" 2014-10-07T15:13:04Z eudoxia: Grue`: shouldn't usocket return an error then? 2014-10-07T15:13:15Z Grue`: I guess hunchentoot:start doesn't fail when the port is already in use 2014-10-07T15:13:15Z futuremint: I also personally like CL a LOT more than Ruby, and I'm the only one doing the work anyway :) 2014-10-07T15:13:24Z stassats: "if it is broken, start bike shedding and give up on a fix" 2014-10-07T15:13:57Z thawes__ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:14:25Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:15:05Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:15:32Z jainex left #lisp 2014-10-07T15:16:09Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:17:02Z thawes quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T15:19:23Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:20:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:22:44Z wizzo quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-10-07T15:23:50Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-10-07T15:23:59Z ynniv quit (Quit: ynniv) 2014-10-07T15:26:03Z ynniv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:26:13Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:26:32Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:26:35Z tajjada quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-07T15:26:47Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:28:12Z zyaku joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:28:27Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:30:08Z futuremint: found my problem... was using just "date" for the :type key, not "clsql:date". 2014-10-07T15:30:26Z stassats: so, i was right? 2014-10-07T15:31:16Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:32:54Z futuremint: stassats, yes! though I didn't see your comment until just now when I had to scroll up 2014-10-07T15:33:03Z futuremint: stassats, beginner mistake I guess :) 2014-10-07T15:33:58Z futuremint: another small question: does anyone actually use the editor in ClozureCL? if so... how would I setup better syntax highlighting? 2014-10-07T15:34:42Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T15:34:44Z futuremint: I like the function name to be a different color 2014-10-07T15:35:11Z clop joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:35:32Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:35:42Z eudoxia quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:35:44Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T15:36:31Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:36:35Z moore33: futuremint: Old MCL users seem to like it. 2014-10-07T15:36:50Z moore33: Old hemlock users too. 2014-10-07T15:37:06Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T15:37:09Z nyef: "Old hemlock users never die"? 2014-10-07T15:37:18Z moore33: I guess. 2014-10-07T15:37:28Z dlowe starts using old hemlock. 2014-10-07T15:37:34Z dlowe: I WILL BE IMMORTAL 2014-10-07T15:38:22Z stassats: dlowe: i don't what's worse 2014-10-07T15:38:26Z stassats: don't know 2014-10-07T15:38:34Z futuremint: I kinda like it... it feels lighter weight than Emacs. Less like driving a tank (or flying an airplane) and more like riding a road bike or something 2014-10-07T15:38:35Z Xach: futuremint: this is another case where you might get better answers on the openmcl-devel list instead of #lisp 2014-10-07T15:39:13Z futuremint: Xach, hah, ok... more mailing lists... :) 2014-10-07T15:40:04Z rme: futuremint: try M-. on hemlock::*lisp-code-colors*. It's basically hard-wired, but I suppose you could frob the value of that variable in home:ccl-ide-init.lisp. 2014-10-07T15:41:55Z nyef: More like riding a road bike? So, slower overall, requires more effort to use, but you wind up healthier for it? 2014-10-07T15:42:07Z Grue`` joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:42:29Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:42:50Z futuremint: rme, please excuse the newb question, but where do I do that? doesn't seem to work from the Listener... 2014-10-07T15:45:24Z rme: futuremint: I type "hemlock::*lisp-code-colors*" into the listener, move the insertion point between the r and the s in colors and press option period. Then it opens the file ccl:cocoa-ide;hemlock;src;display.lisp in a new window. 2014-10-07T15:45:51Z stassats: does it have to be between r and s? 2014-10-07T15:46:46Z rme: Of course not. I'm just saying (somewhat mockingly, I'm afraid) exactly what I did that worked. 2014-10-07T15:46:54Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T15:47:21Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:47:48Z stassats: i hope just after * works 2014-10-07T15:48:24Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-10-07T15:48:56Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T15:49:48Z rme: It does, FWIW. 2014-10-07T15:50:06Z futuremint: rme, thanks for the details :), it says "No known definitions for HEMLOCK::*LISP-CODE-COLORS*"... I'll figure it out, thanks 2014-10-07T15:50:27Z futuremint: I'll just go open that file myself... 2014-10-07T15:50:44Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T15:50:45Z rme: futuremint: Your CCL must be old. You can upgrade to the 1.10 release. 2014-10-07T15:53:22Z nell joined #lisp 2014-10-07T15:53:55Z jusss` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-07T15:56:01Z futuremint: rme, yep, mine is 1.9 2014-10-07T15:58:21Z futuremint: oh hey! its already a little better in 1.10! BTW thanks folks who make CCL... its amazing having a CL in the AppStore 2014-10-07T15:59:02Z futuremint: rme, yes, and now M-. works too 2014-10-07T15:59:19Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:00:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:00:58Z Xach: futuremint: rme is one of the folks! 2014-10-07T16:01:27Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:01:58Z futuremint: I was using Emacs & SBCL a few years ago, but I didn't follow through on adopting CL for a variety of reasons... 2014-10-07T16:02:02Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:02:22Z futuremint: but having ClozureCL now is a big reason I'm seriously adopting CL this time around 2014-10-07T16:02:40Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:03:01Z Xach: cool 2014-10-07T16:03:58Z futuremint: oh, also Quicklisp, forgot to mention that too 2014-10-07T16:05:28Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:05:30Z Xach: glad to hear it 2014-10-07T16:06:22Z rme: futuremint: Thank you. I wonder sometimes if the effort to make the Mac App Store version of CCL is worth it, so I'm always glad to hear it when someone finds it helpful. 2014-10-07T16:06:48Z futuremint: nyef, um... I was thinking, lighter weight, easier to use once you get the hang of it, and generally very useful transportation that "just works" 2014-10-07T16:07:41Z futuremint: nyef, Emacs feels like an airplane because there are lots of fiddly buttons that aren't intuitive (aka key chords), lots of things to keep in mind and pay attention to to keep your orientation 2014-10-07T16:07:59Z Krystof: ... and it can basically fly itself? 2014-10-07T16:08:23Z stassats: you don't have to use them all 2014-10-07T16:08:28Z futuremint: yes! but only after being properly setup by a pilot with hundreds of hours of training :) 2014-10-07T16:09:30Z moore33: Is Hemlock really that much easier to use than Emacs? I last used Hemlock many years ago, and probably not the CCL version, but I remember it as being pretty flakey. 2014-10-07T16:09:31Z ynniv: rme: It surprises me that CCL has an App Store version… but in a good way :-) 2014-10-07T16:09:50Z nicdev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:10:22Z nicdev joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:10:39Z futuremint: moore33, I think its just easier for me "out of the box". and only when editing lisp code. but I also have quite a bit of emacs muscle memory too... so my analogy is probably wrong :) 2014-10-07T16:10:44Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-10-07T16:11:59Z futuremint: also, I'm remembering setting up emacs 21 on OS X, its better nowadays 2014-10-07T16:12:20Z ynniv: I hadn’t used CL in a while, installed ccl via homebrew and wondered how to get the GUI… It’s the App Store?! Hah! *boom* 2014-10-07T16:13:44Z bgs100 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:16:14Z nha joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:17:29Z jayne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T16:17:39Z jayne joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:18:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:20:12Z theos: ynniv get slime and quicklisp 2014-10-07T16:20:48Z ynniv: I remember CCL having it’s own GUI and wanted to try that one 2014-10-07T16:20:59Z ynniv: s/it’s/its/ 2014-10-07T16:21:22Z theos: why did anunnaki send me a notice.. 2014-10-07T16:22:04Z madmalik quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:22:05Z Amaan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:22:05Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:22:06Z nyef: theos: I don't know, but I got one earlier as well. 2014-10-07T16:22:10Z theos: try SBCL. its awesome! get emacs+slime+quicklisp+sbcl and you are good to go 2014-10-07T16:22:11Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:23:10Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:24:32Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:26:22Z mvilleneuve quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-07T16:27:01Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-10-07T16:28:03Z _5kg joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:28:34Z CrazyEddy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T16:32:28Z yuv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:34:08Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:38:03Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:38:19Z mindCrime__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:38:48Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:42:17Z futuremint quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T16:43:02Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:43:22Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:43:53Z ynniv: emacs+slime+quicklisp+ccl works too! 2014-10-07T16:43:55Z ynniv: I still don’t have a good feeling for how sbcl and ccl compare 2014-10-07T16:44:35Z yuv- joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:44:45Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:45:54Z tankrim left #lisp 2014-10-07T16:47:01Z nyef: With EQ, EQL, EQUAL, and EQUALP, of course! 2014-10-07T16:47:47Z nyef: (They're likely to be EQUALP, but almost certainly not EQL. I don't know about EQUAL, though.) 2014-10-07T16:48:24Z devon: Is the QuickLisp slime the same as the GitHub slime? 2014-10-07T16:48:33Z stassats: sometimes 2014-10-07T16:49:03Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:49:44Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:49:44Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:50:18Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:50:52Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:50:58Z mindCrime__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T16:51:04Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:51:07Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T16:52:40Z devon: not for the past 19h 2014-10-07T16:52:52Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:53:31Z sz0 quit 2014-10-07T16:54:06Z Xach: devon: No. It is the same as whatever slime was released at the time of quicklisp's release 2014-10-07T16:54:37Z Xach: devon: unfortunately, a new slime was released shortly after a new quicklisp. i'll try to arrange it to be the other way around next time. 2014-10-07T16:54:53Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 2014-10-07T16:55:00Z kiuma quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T16:55:09Z anunnaki [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Do not send away notices like that.) 2014-10-07T16:55:15Z Xach has set mode -o Xach 2014-10-07T16:57:32Z jainex joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:57:58Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T16:58:20Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:00:22Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:02:18Z jainex quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-07T17:02:48Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:02:50Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:03:20Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:03:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:03:34Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-10-07T17:05:42Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:06:00Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:06:16Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T17:15:11Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:16:55Z jordonbiondo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:17:00Z loke_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T17:18:23Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T17:21:12Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:21:21Z aretecode joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:24:02Z ack006 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:25:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:25:24Z MutSbeta joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:26:16Z redline6561: Long time no see ynniv :) 2014-10-07T17:26:22Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:29:52Z spacebat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:30:58Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-07T17:34:00Z ynniv: Long time since I’ve been CL’ing :) 2014-10-07T17:34:42Z lisper joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:34:48Z nell joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:34:49Z ynniv: But someone mentioned genera in the channel so now I’m updating my scripts 2014-10-07T17:35:09Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:35:24Z ack006: might be me :) 2014-10-07T17:36:00Z ynniv: apparently the vagrant config api has changed, and veewee isn’t integrated anymore, and vagrant can’t even bootstrap ubuntu 7 due to an unsupported sufo flag :-P 2014-10-07T17:36:07Z ack006: i eventually got it to boot past the "what's the time' challenge, but ran into the xlib issue 2014-10-07T17:36:08Z ynniv: yes, I think so 2014-10-07T17:36:27Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:36:34Z ynniv: I think that I never properly documented that I’m using Ubuntu 7 for a reason ;) 2014-10-07T17:37:34Z ynniv: the OpenGenera-on-linux emulator uses a “feature” of X11 that was fixed, so it only runs properly on old X11 2014-10-07T17:37:37Z ack006: ynniv: i have seen an LD_PRELOAD wrapper for vlm trying to get over the root requirement, could something similar be done to wrap the bad xlib calls? 2014-10-07T17:38:10Z ynniv: I never got that deep. You could probably talk with the emulator author 2014-10-07T17:38:26Z ack006: good point :) 2014-10-07T17:38:52Z ynniv: my thought is that if I can make a VM I won’t have to keep changing genera 2014-10-07T17:39:12Z ack006: that's the ultimate goal of course :) 2014-10-07T17:39:14Z ynniv: but in the years since, it broke a little anyway :-P 2014-10-07T17:39:28Z spacebat joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:39:43Z ack006: i'm impressed that it held up so well for so long at all. 2014-10-07T17:39:47Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-10-07T17:40:02Z ynniv: I don’t think I can easily replace veewee or vagrant, but I think I’m going to replace chef with shell scripts 2014-10-07T17:40:48Z ynniv: some forks on github semed to think that I wrote my chef recipes “wrong”, but I think the fix is to remove chef :-D 2014-10-07T17:40:51Z ack006: i've seen many other binaries break on tiny abi changes, but genera links, boots a bit and doesn't segfault, that's impressive 2014-10-07T17:41:47Z ynniv: yeah, not crashing in a ball of fire is a start, but you can end up with subtle problems later, like “save world" 2014-10-07T17:41:53Z ack006: ynniv: no chef, anarchy rules :-) 2014-10-07T17:42:11Z ynniv: without automated testing, it’s just easier to pin the OS 2014-10-07T17:43:26Z ack006: i've done some work with strace diffing in the past, could be useful to try and find out what it needs 2014-10-07T17:43:42Z ynniv: I was in the audience for http://people.csail.mit.edu/reti/SymbolicsTalk28June2012.m4v, and I’d like to be able to reproduce what he did before I start chasing any additional functionality 2014-10-07T17:43:43Z ack006: i.e. compare it booting in an old os version vs. a new(er) one 2014-10-07T17:44:40Z ack006: that link's dead, pasto? :-) 2014-10-07T17:44:53Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T17:45:49Z ynniv: shouldn’t be 2014-10-07T17:45:56Z ynniv: maybe you caught the trailing comma 2014-10-07T17:45:58Z ynniv: i’ll brb 2014-10-07T17:46:13Z drewc: ack006: works here. 2014-10-07T17:46:35Z tkhoa2711 quit (Quit: tkhoa2711) 2014-10-07T17:46:35Z ack006: i did, selected link in xchat, which had the trailing comma. 2014-10-07T17:46:53Z drewc is tempted to fire up his genera on linux just to see the problems ... 2014-10-07T17:47:29Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:47:36Z nyef: drewc: Have you ever looked at what are called "promises" in javascript? They look at least superficially similar to monads to me for some reason. 2014-10-07T17:47:45Z drewc: It has been some .... 6 years or so. Must not give in, other work to be done... 2014-10-07T17:48:39Z drewc: nyef: "promises" .... was that not an async thingie? 2014-10-07T17:48:40Z ack006: drewc: please do, if you have the time 2014-10-07T17:48:47Z drewc googles 2014-10-07T17:48:58Z p_l: nyef: afaik they are futures by other name, not monads... 2014-10-07T17:49:20Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:49:58Z ack006: wrt the link comma pasting etc. i've gotten too used to both slime and factor's presentations that i've come to trust links in other apps to work as well 2014-10-07T17:50:19Z nyef: Ah, okay. New term to search for, yay! (-: 2014-10-07T17:50:32Z drewc: nyef: yup. I agree with p_l 2014-10-07T17:50:53Z ack006: it is really sad that in 2014 we don't have presentations and such in other dev tools 2014-10-07T17:51:08Z Hache_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T17:51:19Z erikc joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:51:51Z ack006: best i've seen is some mouse hover tooltips showing local variables in the debuger but nothing remotely like genera or factor's ui 2014-10-07T17:53:07Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T17:53:23Z ack006 notices that his keyboard is dying, missing characters 2014-10-07T17:54:45Z lisper quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-07T17:55:30Z ack006: on a different note, i just watched the talk on transducers by rich hickey at strange loop, interesting stuff 2014-10-07T17:55:44Z ack006: probably already implemented or very easy to do in lisp i guess 2014-10-07T17:57:29Z on4k joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:57:40Z drewc: ack006: strangely enough, I have been working on something similar for an interface using the browser to present the UI. It is fairly "trivial" to do at least for me, but my lack of time prevents me from going forward. Hopefully this winter I will "relax" and have time to do such things. 2014-10-07T17:57:46Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T17:59:09Z drewc simply speaks to SWANK using SLIME's protocol stuff, but instead of EMACS on the client side it is a CL process that outputs JSON using HUNCHENTOOT. 2014-10-07T17:59:50Z ack006: drewc: interesting! 2014-10-07T18:00:00Z drewc loves CL'ing for the shouting involved ... he does so on purpose :P 2014-10-07T18:00:08Z ack006: :-) 2014-10-07T18:00:43Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:01:30Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T18:01:36Z kuzy000 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:01:51Z kuzy000 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:01:55Z on4k quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T18:02:12Z drewc: I call her "CLEO: Common Lisp Editor Organiser". She is such a fun piece of software to work on that she has a sex _and_ is female ;) 2014-10-07T18:02:55Z ack006: drewc: can't wait to meet her ;-) 2014-10-07T18:04:02Z drewc spoke français first and all nouns seem to have sexes ... and "Cleo" is generally a female name. 2014-10-07T18:04:56Z drewc lives on a ship though, which even has a sex in English! She is a good home. 2014-10-07T18:05:41Z drewc should be in #lispcafe where his blathering is on topic, and apologizes for his blathering. 2014-10-07T18:06:00Z reb`: drewc: Why not use swank-client, CL code for talking to a swank server? 2014-10-07T18:06:03Z ack006: Ha, the face that launched a thousand ships, except that was Helen, i googled ;-) 2014-10-07T18:08:12Z drewc: reb`: I enjoy freedom, not slavery! OR: the license makes no sense for lisp at all. 2014-10-07T18:08:22Z ack006 thanks drewc for mentioning #lispcafe, going to have a cons cell of cold ones (atoms?) there :-D 2014-10-07T18:12:45Z drewc: reb`: and besides that, it is a fairly trivial protocol, so regardless of my "I prefer unlicense or MIT for my own code" and "Do not like the lack of legal clarity for GPL and Common Lisp code, and what is clear is illegal"... it is fairly trivial. 2014-10-07T18:17:35Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:18:34Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:21:25Z Summon quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.3.1 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-10-07T18:26:27Z thawes_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:30:53Z c107 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:34:25Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-10-07T18:38:57Z cneira quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:40:06Z _8hzp joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:42:57Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T18:43:41Z hzp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:44:27Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:45:18Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:45:26Z vimer joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:46:14Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:49:00Z prxq joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:50:23Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:52:28Z tajjada quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T18:54:19Z tajjada joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:55:19Z reb`: drewc: thanks for the explanation .... 2014-10-07T18:55:48Z levenson joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:56:14Z thawes_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T18:58:49Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:00:44Z levenson quit (Quit: off) 2014-10-07T19:01:07Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T19:01:16Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:03:35Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:04:06Z vimer quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-10-07T19:06:56Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:06:57Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:07:09Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-10-07T19:07:51Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T19:08:14Z devon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T19:10:13Z husker joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:11:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:11:45Z pgomes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T19:15:23Z devon joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:17:04Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:19:22Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:19:46Z husker quit (Quit: husker) 2014-10-07T19:20:51Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:20:54Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-10-07T19:21:29Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:25:17Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:27:20Z mutley89 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T19:28:45Z thawes_ is now known as thawes 2014-10-07T19:29:20Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:31:31Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:32:12Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:35:19Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:36:04Z madrik quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-07T19:36:22Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:38:40Z yuv- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:38:40Z Beluki joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:40:20Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:43:09Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T19:50:21Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: memory access lost because execution destroyed) 2014-10-07T19:51:03Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-07T19:55:14Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:57:47Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-10-07T19:58:17Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T19:58:27Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:00:13Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:00:45Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-10-07T20:01:25Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:05:00Z killka joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:06:35Z nydel joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:07:03Z rme joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:09:32Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:14:02Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:15:04Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T20:16:35Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:21:17Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:21:52Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:22:10Z Baggers left #lisp 2014-10-07T20:22:35Z Baggers joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:25:19Z devon: (ql:quickload "asteroids") complains about lispbuilder-sdl-cocoahelper, any clues? 2014-10-07T20:25:46Z nyef: Sounds OSXish, but beyond that I have no idea. 2014-10-07T20:26:07Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-07T20:26:13Z metts joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:26:18Z nyef: ... If someone wants to make an open-source reimplementation of the OSX UI libraries, can they please call it "hotchocolate"? 2014-10-07T20:26:20Z metts left #lisp 2014-10-07T20:26:43Z devon: or 2014-10-07T20:26:52Z Shinmera: why not cacao 2014-10-07T20:26:56Z devon: "chocolatchaud" 2014-10-07T20:27:00Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T20:27:17Z nyef: Shinmera: Seems somewhat unrefined... 2014-10-07T20:28:38Z Shinmera: Interestingly enough, German doesn't have two words for the drink and the plant. It's both 'Kakao'. 2014-10-07T20:29:44Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:30:10Z Shinmera: (or rather you can use 'Kakao' for both) 2014-10-07T20:31:22Z Baggers: Hi folks, I have been looking at implementations of curry in common lisp and I am getting a bit confused. It looks like most are actually parital application. Does CL historially have a different meaning of this term or have I missunderstood something. (a good example is curry in alexandria) 2014-10-07T20:32:29Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T20:32:54Z drewc was about to mention his first lisp project was called "lisp on lines", then realized the topic was cacao, not coca. 2014-10-07T20:32:57Z c107 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:33:06Z nyef: drewc: Now that's just nuts! (-: 2014-10-07T20:33:22Z drewc: :D 2014-10-07T20:33:45Z nphy joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:34:11Z fr3aksken joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:36:17Z nphy: Hello 2014-10-07T20:36:18Z freaksken quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:36:18Z fr3aksken is now known as freaksken 2014-10-07T20:37:18Z jasom: drewc: there are way too many lisp related things abbreviated lol 2014-10-07T20:38:19Z nphy: I've recently been reading a fair amount of articles on how OOP is a crappy paradigm together with all the technologies that support it and there are often references to Lisp, so I figured, why not give it a try. Thing I am not sure about, is how relevant the language is these days? Are there modern compilers for it? Is it worth studying or something like Haskell would be more suitable to dig into functional programming? 2014-10-07T20:38:20Z drewc: jasom: there never used to be. I got a free autographed book out of the deal, as I was first. 2014-10-07T20:38:33Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:38:40Z jasom: Baggers: I think it's just because to a lot of people the useful thing about currying is partial application, so the terms get confused. 2014-10-07T20:39:02Z drewc: nphy: Lisp is not a functional programming language. 2014-10-07T20:39:14Z jasom: Baggers: but yes, "curry" in alexandria is really partial application 2014-10-07T20:39:28Z nphy: drewc: isn't it? I always thought it is :( 2014-10-07T20:39:33Z jasom: but it's easy to make a curry function based on partial application 2014-10-07T20:39:54Z drewc: nphy: that said, the latest SBCL (which is the compiler I use) was September 27, 2014 2014-10-07T20:39:55Z jasom: nphy: it's the first language to have first-class functions, so a lot of functional programming theory started in lisp 2014-10-07T20:40:00Z nyef: I'd rather talk about currying chicken than currying functions. 2014-10-07T20:40:31Z Baggers: jasom: Good to know, thanks! 2014-10-07T20:40:38Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:40:55Z Baggers: nyef: Did that earlier this evening, working my way through all the kinds :) 2014-10-07T20:41:05Z drewc: nphy: It is a multi-paradigm language. So if is it functional, it is also object oriented. 2014-10-07T20:41:24Z jasom: nphy: It's more correct to call lisp "multi-paradigm" rather than functional; it has a very complete object system that is IMO much more useful than that provided by more mainstream OO languages, for example. 2014-10-07T20:41:33Z dan64 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:41:59Z drewc: Baggers: I call it "making curry" (the partial application) ... because it is not really currying per se. 2014-10-07T20:42:02Z nphy: I've touched haskell once but it scared me off. Somehow, through 8 years of programming experience I got pointed to different directions by mentors and teachers. Now reading these articles(rants) I'm really curious on what I;'ve been missing out on. I was shocked to find out Linus Torvalds called C++ a horrible language. My whole life is a lie 2014-10-07T20:42:18Z drewc: C++ is not object oriented. 2014-10-07T20:42:22Z nphy: I know 2014-10-07T20:42:31Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:42:38Z drewc: and is horrible. ;) 2014-10-07T20:42:48Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:42:51Z jasom: nphy: haskell's syntax is very friendly to mathemeticians, which is probably not surprising considering its roots. 2014-10-07T20:43:03Z drewc: Haskell is a nice language if you are into that sort of thing. 2014-10-07T20:43:18Z nyef: ... If we're talking about roots, can we make a garbage collection or imaginary number joke here please? 2014-10-07T20:43:44Z jasom: nyef: I'd say "I won't make a joke" but I'm an engineer so J won't make a joke. 2014-10-07T20:43:59Z drewc: I enjoy it (well, Gofer really) for certain aspects. Programming is not one of them. 2014-10-07T20:43:59Z nyef: Well played, sir! (-: 2014-10-07T20:44:37Z dlowe: If static typing matters, we should all probably be using Haskell. Otherwise, we should be using lisp. 2014-10-07T20:45:13Z jasom: nphy: learning any of ML Lisp or Haskell (and by learning I mean to the point where you actually do a non-trivial project in it) will be great if you've been in C/C++/Java land; it will expose you to new ways of doing things. 2014-10-07T20:45:24Z drewc: dlowe: https://github.com/haskell-lisp/yale-haskell <---or both! 2014-10-07T20:45:25Z jasom: nphy: obviously we all recomend lisp from that list :) 2014-10-07T20:45:41Z jasom: dlowe: or Shen. 2014-10-07T20:46:08Z dlowe: yes, except some non crappy version of Shen that's not actually Shen 2014-10-07T20:46:31Z jasom: dlowe: But then you can't base it on shen due to Shen's crappy license. 2014-10-07T20:46:42Z madrik quit (Quit: sleep) 2014-10-07T20:46:42Z nphy: One thing always bothers me about languages that strongly differ from C, is how they are compiled and to what. I know it sounds strange, but I understand well how C code maps into machine language. Non sequential execution puts me off and I am scared of compilers for non-procedural languages... If you know what I mean 2014-10-07T20:46:45Z dlowe: I think that only for the best. 2014-10-07T20:47:04Z dlowe: nphy: well, lisp has a DISASSEMBLE function that will satisfy your curiosity 2014-10-07T20:47:07Z drewc: nphy: well, Common Lisp is a procedural language! 2014-10-07T20:47:08Z jasom: nphy: use sbcl then 2014-10-07T20:47:38Z dlowe: If non-sequential execution puts you off, you shouldn't look at what C compilers generate. Yikes. 2014-10-07T20:47:44Z jasom: nphy: (disassemble (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) 2014-10-07T20:47:59Z drewc: nphy: and certain compilers have a type system that,when mapped onto code, is very similar to what you are used to / what you want / etc. Like SBCL 2014-10-07T20:48:51Z jasom: nphy: you should see 34 bytes of very clear disassembly; in addition a lot of the fancy things in lisp are implemented with macros, and you can ask lisp to expand the macros for you. It's a really good environment if you're into nuts and bolts (as I am; I use C in my day job) 2014-10-07T20:49:16Z nphy: And what kind of literatures is available out there? Is there any K&R for Lisp? 2014-10-07T20:49:35Z nphy: jasom: not too into it, but I did my time with compilers 2014-10-07T20:49:38Z Xach: nphy: "Yes" 2014-10-07T20:49:49Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T20:49:52Z jasom: nphy: K&R is both a reference and an intro; there's nothing quite like that. I would suggest pcl for learning and the hyperspec for reference 2014-10-07T20:49:56Z jasom: minion: tell nphy about pcl 2014-10-07T20:49:56Z minion: nphy: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2014-10-07T20:50:03Z jasom: minion: tell nphy about the hyperspec 2014-10-07T20:50:03Z minion: nphy: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 2014-10-07T20:50:26Z jasom: I think it was supposed to say jasom: please stop playing with me... 2014-10-07T20:50:33Z nyef: ... You know... yeah, that. 2014-10-07T20:51:05Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:51:18Z nphy: Alrighty, I'm in, thanks for the replies guys 2014-10-07T20:51:18Z jasom: nphy: anyway the hyperspec is here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm 2014-10-07T20:51:29Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T20:51:35Z jasom: does kmp still work for lispworks? 2014-10-07T20:51:48Z Xach: jasom: he has not for many many years 2014-10-07T20:51:55Z Xach: he worked for Harlequin 2014-10-07T20:52:07Z jasom: oh, I didn't know that 2014-10-07T20:52:28Z jasom just noticed the frontpage of the hyperspec still has kmp@lispworks.com for contact info. 2014-10-07T20:52:54Z Xach: Maybe they forward his email. 2014-10-07T20:53:02Z jasom: Xach: I wouldn't be surprised 2014-10-07T20:53:41Z Xach: linkedin says he was done with harlequin in 1998 2014-10-07T20:54:04Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-10-07T20:54:42Z jasom: Baggers: also, note that it's either not possible to -- or at least non-obvious how to -- curry functions with variable arguments (&optional, &key &rest) 2014-10-07T20:55:30Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-10-07T20:56:02Z drmeister: I just loaded the #:alexandria package into Clasp for the first time using (asdf:load-system :alexandria) 2014-10-07T20:56:11Z drmeister: What's the funnest alexandria function? 2014-10-07T20:58:08Z drmeister: Ok, Clasp can load systems using ASDF: 2014-10-07T20:58:11Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/DdFdPc9a 2014-10-07T20:58:42Z Xach: wicked 2014-10-07T20:59:11Z jasom applauds 2014-10-07T21:00:20Z thawes quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T21:00:30Z nyef: drmeister: Congratulations. 2014-10-07T21:00:35Z jasom: I was going to as when cl-launch will support it, but then I realized I'm the most likely person to add that support... 2014-10-07T21:02:01Z jasom: though I'll wait until drmeister indicates that the command-line interface has stabilized 2014-10-07T21:02:34Z drmeister: Thanks! 2014-10-07T21:02:48Z Xach: drmeister: get http://pierre-mai.de/2010/10/deflate-1-dot-0-1-released.html going too! 2014-10-07T21:03:49Z jasom: drmeister: does clasp build standalone executables in a manner similar to ecl? 2014-10-07T21:05:34Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T21:05:34Z drmeister: jasom: Clasp does not at this point but it could do so. It's all just LLVM-IR after all. It would take me a couple of days to get it working. 2014-10-07T21:06:04Z jordonbiondo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:06:34Z drmeister: That's a naive executable. A smart executable that shakes out everything that isn't needed by the executable would take longer to figure out. 2014-10-07T21:07:13Z nyef: Start with the naive executable if you're going to go that route at all. Disks are large, and unused stuff doesn't need to get paged in. 2014-10-07T21:07:21Z jasom: drmeister: don't prioritize it for me at the moment, I was mainly curious 2014-10-07T21:07:33Z drmeister: A smart executable would be a lot smaller and a candidate for emscripten or running on phones. 2014-10-07T21:10:45Z drmeister: jasom: I think the command line interface has stabilized. 2014-10-07T21:10:51Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:11:32Z nell joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:12:03Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:13:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:19:16Z DTSCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T21:19:31Z drmeister: jasom: But there is no hurry. 2014-10-07T21:19:37Z jasom: drmeister: okay, so cl-launch for everything but images is doable. 2014-10-07T21:20:27Z DTSCode joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:20:45Z jasom: drmeister: cl-launch I would do for me; #!/usr/bin/cl is just too useful 2014-10-07T21:21:34Z c107 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:24:02Z vlnx quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:28:10Z drmeister: You raise an excellent point. What does cl-launch do? 2014-10-07T21:29:59Z drmeister: Xach: Is that deflate system completely written in Common Lisp? I don't think the current Clasp bootstrapping compiler will be up to doing compute heavy code until beach's Cleavir is incorporated. 2014-10-07T21:30:34Z jasom: drmeister: http://cliki.net/cl-launch 2014-10-07T21:30:59Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:31:33Z Xach: drmeister: it is completely common lisp and portable to almost all current implementations (I haven't tried GCL or Corman) 2014-10-07T21:32:11Z nyef: Is Corman still a "current" implementation? 2014-10-07T21:33:00Z Svetlana quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:33:47Z Xach: no. bad example on my part. 2014-10-07T21:34:24Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:34:31Z thepreacher joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:36:15Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:39:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:40:30Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:43:55Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2014-10-07T21:45:31Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T21:52:36Z killka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-07T21:54:12Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T21:56:42Z socksy joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:01:45Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:05:03Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:05:52Z kuzy000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:06:52Z emma joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:08:07Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:09:08Z nug700 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-07T22:10:03Z ggole quit 2014-10-07T22:11:15Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:13:29Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:14:30Z nphy quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-07T22:15:20Z kpreid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:19:52Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-10-07T22:19:54Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:20:34Z thepreacher quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-07T22:21:47Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:21:49Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:25:20Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:25:51Z KarlDscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T22:29:39Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:29:58Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T22:37:04Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:44:00Z Svetlana joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:44:57Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:57:52Z ynniv: It’s possible that people aren’t using ecl for iOS because of licensing, so I wouldn’t prioritize trying to get clasp (having the same license) to make iOS optimized binaries. 2014-10-07T22:58:49Z yuv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T22:58:58Z ynniv: (my recent reddit submission: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/2idkk1/why_mocl_over_ecl_on_ios/) 2014-10-07T23:00:42Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-07T23:01:15Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T23:01:47Z ltbarcly_ quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-07T23:02:11Z nyef: ... Hrm. How desperate would I have to be in order to even consider targetting iOS... and how deep into my bag of tricks would I be willing to dig in order to use SBCL? 2014-10-07T23:03:39Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T23:03:49Z nyef: ... I'm fairly sure that I could use SBCL, but it'd cost me the use of CLOS. 2014-10-07T23:05:27Z nyef: And the only reason that I could do so is because I've worked out a few tricks around the SBCL build process and producing much-reduced cores that don't actually support a full CL environment (or even close to it) but still run code that I've written. 2014-10-07T23:05:29Z yuv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:07:17Z nyef: "C++ popularity, Lisp simplicity unite in Clasp compiler"... "Lisp simplicity"? WTF? 2014-10-07T23:08:18Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:08:19Z dim: nyef: mocl? 2014-10-07T23:08:19Z ryankarason: nyef: you don't find Lisp as simplistic? 2014-10-07T23:09:07Z nyef: dim: The phrase "I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot snide remark" comes to mind. I'm an SBCL hacker, why should I use anything else? 2014-10-07T23:09:30Z nyef: ryankarason: There's a bit of a difference between "simple" and "simplistic". Common Lisp is neither. 2014-10-07T23:09:45Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:09:51Z nyef: Most lisp are at least not simplistic, though newLISP probably is. 2014-10-07T23:10:13Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:10:23Z ryankarason: nyef: i see. well, in my opinion they are simplistic. as everything is a list, and syntax doens't have a bunch of odd complications 2014-10-07T23:11:04Z nyef: ... Wrong on two counts. 2014-10-07T23:11:15Z ryankarason: opinions can't be wrong =P 2014-10-07T23:12:02Z nyef: Yes they can, but I was more referring to "everything is a lisp" (there are plenty of other data types) and "syntax doesn't have a bunch of odd complications". 2014-10-07T23:12:24Z drewc: s/lisp/list 2014-10-07T23:12:25Z nyef: Ever heard the phrase "my opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right"? 2014-10-07T23:12:34Z ryankarason: but sure, maybe i am being oversimplistic with my view of lisp. but i wrote a interpreter for a LISP 1.5 and it had everything as a list 2014-10-07T23:12:34Z nyef: Yes, thank you drewc. 2014-10-07T23:12:38Z ryankarason: heh, no, but i like. 2014-10-07T23:13:08Z nyef: I know how to represent numbers as lists, but how do you represent symbols as lists? 2014-10-07T23:13:09Z ryankarason: sure maybe there is the datatypes of the atoms, but i think of them all as some warp of a string anyhow 2014-10-07T23:13:21Z ryankarason: a symbol is a list of characters :) 2014-10-07T23:13:25Z nyef: (Actually, scratch that, yeah.) 2014-10-07T23:13:31Z ryankarason: =P 2014-10-07T23:13:38Z ryankarason: everything is just a number which the language 2014-10-07T23:13:40Z nyef: And functions as lists is trivial, thanks to some guy named Kurt. 2014-10-07T23:13:42Z drewc: LISP 1.5 was what ... 1962? 2014-10-07T23:13:53Z ryankarason: speaking of this though, i thought of trying to write a lisp which the only datatype is strings 2014-10-07T23:13:58Z ryankarason: and symbols themselves are strings 2014-10-07T23:14:09Z ryankarason: drewc: heh. so what i am 50 years behind! 2014-10-07T23:14:11Z Bike: me, i only write programs as vector spaces. no need for this "list" crap 2014-10-07T23:14:28Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-07T23:14:34Z drewc: So, I think lisp may have evolved since the early 60's... but what do I know, I have never used LISP 1.5. 2014-10-07T23:14:48Z oGMo: ryankarason: a misconception .. the statement "X has the opinion " may be true. that doesn't make the opinion right. 2014-10-07T23:15:07Z Xach: drmeister: you'd have to ask pjb, lisp 1.5 came out when he was in college 2014-10-07T23:15:10Z Xach: drewc, rather 2014-10-07T23:15:45Z nyef: I have a LISP 1.5 manual kicking around somewhere. 2014-10-07T23:15:54Z bugrum joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:16:36Z Bike: i have a scan of a printout of the first self-hosting compiler. it ain't pretty. 2014-10-07T23:16:44Z Bike: lots of prog. very elegant 2014-10-07T23:16:45Z drewc: Xach: I have used pjb's interpreter, so perhaps I have used LISP 1.5, depending on the definition of such things. 2014-10-07T23:17:25Z yuv joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:21:33Z JuanitoJons quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:21:48Z nyef: ... It suddenly occurs to me, the iOS app store terms forbid downloading code over the network to change the behavior of your app, don't they? 2014-10-07T23:22:20Z nyef: This basically rules out video game or computer emulators, doesn't it? 2014-10-07T23:22:37Z Bike: i thought the apple store used to forbid language implementations of any kind, but i guess they have CCL now 2014-10-07T23:23:29Z nyef: Is the CCL thing for iOS or for OSX? 2014-10-07T23:24:05Z Bike: hm, OSX i think 2014-10-07T23:24:16Z nyef: Right, I'm thinking iOS here. 2014-10-07T23:24:26Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:24:31Z Bike: i didn't know they had different restrictions, but i guess that figures 2014-10-07T23:25:03Z pjb: nyef: in LISP 1.5, symbols are represented with cons cells. It is mostly a p-list with a few special keys for its name and value. 2014-10-07T23:25:44Z nyef: pjb: How does the system know that it has a SYMBOL rather than a CONS, then? 2014-10-07T23:26:15Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T23:30:41Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:31:03Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:31:06Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2014-10-07T23:33:52Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:34:00Z tadni joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:35:11Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-10-07T23:39:20Z bugrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T23:43:04Z pjb: nyef: Basically, if the cdr was negative, then the car pointed to (or was) the atom data. 2014-10-07T23:44:03Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:44:14Z pjb: (defun make-atom (x) (cons x -1)) (defun atom (x) (minusp (cdr x))) 2014-10-07T23:45:15Z pjb: Similarly, strings, (which didn't exist as a data type, but were needed internally for symbol names) were lists of 36-bit integers 6*6 packed characters, #o77 filled. 2014-10-07T23:45:32Z Vutral is now known as mrTapir 2014-10-07T23:45:34Z McMAGIC--Copy joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:50:00Z nha quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-07T23:54:11Z nyef: Ouch. Workable, but ouch. 2014-10-07T23:54:31Z pjb: It's strange to see how certainly IBM 7090 hardware influenced LISP cons (and before it, FLPL list structures). 2014-10-07T23:55:06Z nyef: Okay, that's a term that escapes my mental dictionary. What's FLPL? 2014-10-07T23:55:18Z pjb: Beside the tags/car/tags/cdr word structure, there was also a XEC instruction (EVAL) in 7090, that let you execute a referenced instruction. 2014-10-07T23:55:28Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-07T23:55:38Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html 2014-10-07T23:55:45Z pjb: It was the "predecessor" of lisp :-) 2014-10-07T23:55:58Z davazp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-07T23:56:34Z pjb: NSS list = Newell, Shaw, Simon. 2014-10-07T23:58:19Z Bike: as featured in knuth's complaint that you can do linked lists yourself without a big huge system like lisp 1.5. 2014-10-07T23:58:28Z pjb: :-) 2014-10-07T23:58:39Z Bike: i wonder if that's in the newer editions... 2014-10-07T23:58:40Z nyef: It's amazing how far we've come, and simultaneously how far we haven't come. 2014-10-07T23:59:05Z Zhivago: It depends on who 'we' is, I guess. 2014-10-07T23:59:10Z nyef: That too.