2014-10-05T00:00:17Z drmeister: When you get a backtrace in a CL like SBCL - are you able to look at the value of special variables in different frames?   I don't have that and I'm having a problem getting ASDF running where ASDF LOADs the .asd file and DEFSYSTEM does not appear to be available in the current package at that point in time.
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2014-10-05T00:23:03Z groidhunter: i'm at #niggerlynchmob, come join my discussion for what we should do about the subhuman nigger savages
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2014-10-05T01:15:32Z pjb: drmeister: I find it rather difficult to understand the meaning of dynamic-extend, since you declare a variable such, but it's actually the objects allocated that are eventually bound (and possibly indirectly) to that variables that are allocated on the stack.  (defun allocate-something () …)  (let ((a (allocate-something)) (b (allocate-something))) (declare (dynamic-extend a)) b) ; have fun.
2014-10-05T01:16:28Z pjb: drmeister: I assume, as an implementer, you can perform the right data flow analysis to do the right thing.  Nonetheless, this is waky, IMU.
2014-10-05T01:18:09Z drmeister: pjb: I find it a little wacky as well.  I was just curious about what optimizing compilers do.
2014-10-05T01:20:05Z pjb: I guess that one implementation strategy could be to have a system::with-dynamic-extend macro that would make the allocator use the stack instead of the heap, and to wrap all the assignments to those variable in it.  The allocator would still have to allocate on the heap data that is too big for the stack, I guess.
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2014-10-05T03:07:32Z |3b| wonders if it is cheating to optimize for lack of precision (like skipping multiplies by numbers that are too close to 1 to distinguish with single-floats)
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2014-10-05T03:09:22Z |3b|: feels somehow wrong, but if i was getting a 'good enough' answer with the multiplies then seems like i might as well
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2014-10-05T03:44:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-10-05T04:03:43Z zRecursive: howdy
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2014-10-05T04:08:14Z beach: Hello zRecursive.
2014-10-05T04:08:33Z zRecursive: hi
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2014-10-05T04:59:49Z |3b| needs to write or find a nice symbolic execution/partial evaluation lib instead of hacking part of one together every time i want one :/
2014-10-05T05:09:29Z drmeister: I'm amazed at ASDF, it's quite a feat of programming to handle all of these different Common Lisp implementations.
2014-10-05T05:09:57Z drmeister: I'm working on getting ASDF working with Clasp.
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2014-10-05T05:14:20Z beach: |3b|: Maybe we should work together on a "universal code walker".
2014-10-05T05:14:49Z beach: I need such a thing for the SICL sequences module.
2014-10-05T05:14:57Z |3b|: beach: i've already spent more time than i should have on the stuff i want it for anyway :/
2014-10-05T05:15:38Z beach: That's a very selfish way of seeing it.  What about everyone else? :)
2014-10-05T05:15:41Z |3b|: not sure if i really want some thing completely general though, usually just want to simplify/optimize large math-heavy expressions or groups of them
2014-10-05T05:16:10Z |3b|: beach: everyone else can use the stuff i'm supposed to be working on instead :p
2014-10-05T05:18:13Z |3b| also mostly wants not-really-correct optimizations, like (* 0.0 x) -> 0.0
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2014-10-05T05:19:10Z |3b| goes afk for a while
2014-10-05T05:20:20Z Bike: (declare (optimize ffast-math))
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2014-10-05T05:23:36Z beach: drmeister: Did you have questions for me about stack allocation?
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2014-10-05T05:24:16Z drmeister: beach: Hello!
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2014-10-05T05:24:47Z drmeister: Yes, do any optimizations involve putting objects (like a CONS) directly on the stack?
2014-10-05T05:25:06Z drmeister: Optimization os Cleavir
2014-10-05T05:25:08Z drmeister: of
2014-10-05T05:25:28Z beach: As others said, yes, dynamic-extent optimizations involve stack allocation.
2014-10-05T05:25:33Z beach: But
2014-10-05T05:26:03Z beach: 1. It is a very system-specific optimization, and Cleavir is only at the MIR level as of now.
2014-10-05T05:26:39Z beach: 2. It is a tricky optimization because of safety.  I just learned that SBCL trusts the programmer, and if the programmer lies, then it may crash.
2014-10-05T05:26:59Z drmeister: Ok, so it's not a standard optimization.  All objects are on the heap and the escape analysis decides whether the binding is put on the stack or the heap. Not whether the object is put on the stack or the heap.
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2014-10-05T05:27:51Z beach: Right.  Escape analysis has to do with the extent of the binding.
2014-10-05T05:28:26Z drmeister: Got it.  I thought I understood that but I had a long discussion with a friend today and I managed to convince myself otherwise.
2014-10-05T05:28:35Z drmeister: Thanks.
2014-10-05T05:28:41Z beach: Sure.
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2014-10-05T05:30:36Z beach: People also told you that heap allocation is not necessarily expensive.  A good GC will never touch unused memory anyway, so short-lived objects should not be a big problem.
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2014-10-05T05:49:23Z drmeister: General question: When COMPILE-FILE does it's job, should it accumulate messages about errors and warnings in dynamic variables and then print them at the end?  I see that it should return (values output-truename warnings-p failure-p).   My COMPILE-FILE throws an error and fails immediately when the compiler sees an error - which is probably not the best
2014-10-05T05:49:23Z drmeister: thing to do.
2014-10-05T05:49:43Z Bike: you're supposed to accumulate them, yeah.
2014-10-05T05:49:52Z Bike: with-compilation-unit is involved. can't say i understand it very well though.
2014-10-05T05:50:08Z drmeister: s/it's/its/
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2014-10-05T05:53:09Z drmeister: I think the outer with-compilation-unit sets up the dynamic variables and inner ones don't unless :override t
2014-10-05T05:55:10Z drmeister: Please, anyone correct me if you have a better understanding.
2014-10-05T05:56:06Z Bike: sounds good to me.
2014-10-05T05:56:08Z zacts: drmeister: how's progress with Clasp?
2014-10-05T05:56:31Z drmeister: zacts: It's coming along.  Did you know I released it?
2014-10-05T05:56:53Z zacts: oh, no. I didn't know there was a release yet. /me checks the homepage
2014-10-05T05:57:09Z drmeister: No problem, thanks for asking though.  Hang on.
2014-10-05T05:57:18Z zacts: nice
2014-10-05T05:57:27Z zacts: I can test on FreeBSD or OpenBSD if you want
2014-10-05T05:57:34Z drmeister: http://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/09/18/announcing-clasp/
2014-10-05T05:57:40Z zacts: yep
2014-10-05T05:58:18Z drmeister: I haven't built on those at all - I'd love to see if it works on those.
2014-10-05T05:58:38Z drmeister: Check the issues for other peoples experiences.
2014-10-05T05:58:45Z zacts: ok
2014-10-05T05:58:55Z drmeister: Cool, thanks!
2014-10-05T05:58:56Z zacts: I'll let you know if I can get it to build on FreeBSD first
2014-10-05T05:59:10Z zacts: amd64 10.1
2014-10-05T05:59:16Z zacts: FreeBSD-10.1
2014-10-05T05:59:26Z drmeister: Sure, also tell me if the instructions are clear or not.
2014-10-05T05:59:43Z zacts: ok
2014-10-05T06:00:40Z zacts: about how long does it take to build on an i3 cpu?
2014-10-05T06:00:45Z zacts: so I can plan a build
2014-10-05T06:00:57Z zacts: like will it take over an hour?
2014-10-05T06:01:29Z zacts: oh I see you have an irc channel
2014-10-05T06:03:33Z drmeister: I think it will take over an hour.   It's a kind of "start it up and get on with other things" sort of thing. It depends on how much memory you have and how many cores you have.  You can set the PJOBS variable in the local.config.
2014-10-05T06:04:41Z zacts: ok, cool
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2014-10-05T07:34:00Z beach: In case anyone is looking for a project, we really need a PDF "reader" that can interact with PDF forms and that can handle PDF annotations.
2014-10-05T07:34:21Z beach: It seems to me that Common Lisp would be ideal for such a program.
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2014-10-05T08:18:46Z wasamasa: beach: hmm, perhaps the sources of llpp can help
2014-10-05T08:19:02Z wasamasa: beach: it's a pretty bare-bones pdf reader written in ocaml that uses opengl for rendering
2014-10-05T08:22:51Z wasamasa: beach: the parsing parts especially are interesting
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2014-10-05T08:46:52Z beach: wasamasa: I do not intend to start any such project, because I have a lot of stuff on my plate for the foreseeable future.  I would be willing to provide help to someone else, though.
2014-10-05T08:49:39Z beach: It's a good project, because it is an application (rather than a compiler or a tool for a programmer).  Furthermore, existing free PDF "readers" are incomplete or defective.  Finally, it is a program that many people need.
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2014-10-05T09:05:41Z H4ns: beach: not sure if you know it and/or if it lacks features that you need, but pdftk is a rather useful tool to interact with pdfs.
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2014-10-05T09:23:57Z beach: H4ns: I'll check it out.  Thanks!
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2014-10-05T09:26:19Z beach: H4ns: I can't even install it with apt-get.  Packages missing bla bla.
2014-10-05T09:26:43Z beach: I seriously doubt that it would have more complete features than Evince and Okular, though.
2014-10-05T09:26:48Z beach: I might be wrong of course.
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2014-10-05T09:27:47Z H4ns: beach: look at the web page to find out
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2014-10-05T09:31:15Z beach: OK, I might do that later.  I have found a workable solution: install the most recent version of Acroread that they built for Linux on my laptop (32-bit).
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2014-10-05T09:44:49Z beach: I maintain that it would be a great Common Lisp project.
2014-10-05T09:53:14Z loke_: Anyone with good http skills in the house? I'm seeing this weird behaviour where drakma can issue 100 http get requests (to CouchDB) in 0.104 seconds (server on localhost). But when I do it all on the same http connection (connection reuse) it takes 2.149 seconds. I have no idea where to start looking.
2014-10-05T09:54:01Z H4ns: i'd look at a tcpdump to see who causes the delay (sender or receiver)
2014-10-05T09:54:21Z H4ns: could be tcp slow start, or a buffering issue.
2014-10-05T09:55:13Z H4ns: or maybe a threading issue (your one-connection case probably means that only one thread serves requests, wheras with multiple connections, it could be more than one thread in the server)
2014-10-05T09:56:43Z H4ns: but as you're looking for 20ms that are wasted at some point, for each request, it shoud be relatively easy to figure out. 20ms is like an aeon
2014-10-05T09:57:14Z loke_: Yeah.
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2014-10-05T09:59:15Z loke_: Is there a high-resolution timer I can get access to in SBCL?
2014-10-05T09:59:24Z loke_: something like an interface to clock_gettime
2014-10-05T10:00:02Z H4ns: sb-unix:unix-gettimeofday
2014-10-05T10:00:27Z H4ns: but get-internal-real-time might be sufficient
2014-10-05T10:01:51Z loke_: I'd like something with higher precision than milliseconds though
2014-10-05T10:02:03Z H4ns: why?  you're looking for 20ms
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2014-10-05T10:08:28Z loke_: Well, I managed to reprocue it using the "ab" command, so I know it's not drakma's fault :-)
2014-10-05T10:08:37Z loke_: This is a problem with couchdb
2014-10-05T10:09:10Z wasamasa: couchdb is a slouch?
2014-10-05T10:09:18Z loke_: seems loke it
2014-10-05T10:09:40Z H4ns: loke_: maybe it is really tcp slow starting
2014-10-05T10:09:59Z H4ns: loke_: sounds like a beginners mistake.  but then.
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2014-10-05T10:39:40Z francogrex: with lisp (cffi) am I limited to access memory range? I am trying to access a memory address where another program has stored info, cffi errs with access violation. with gdb I have no such problem to access and read the content of that supposedly forbidden mem address...
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2014-10-05T10:43:55Z |3b|: are both running in same address space, or is the memory shared between both processes?
2014-10-05T10:44:38Z |3b|: that isn't lisp/cffi specific though, just normal OS stuff
2014-10-05T10:49:37Z francogrex: |3b|: memory not specifically shared
2014-10-05T10:50:31Z francogrex: I think it's partly if not mainly lisp because with clisp the info is more explicit: handle_fault error2 ! address = 0x8b72404 not in [0x1a190000,0x1a499050) !
2014-10-05T10:51:07Z francogrex: address = 0x8b72404 which is not accessible from clisp is where the other application stores its info
2014-10-05T10:51:34Z |3b|: "other application" as in another process, as in not sharing the same memory?
2014-10-05T10:51:37Z H4ns: francogrex: are you trying to access memory from one process from another process?
2014-10-05T10:51:58Z francogrex: other process yes
2014-10-05T10:52:05Z francogrex: H4ns: yes 2 processes
2014-10-05T10:52:13Z H4ns: francogrex: processes have private address spaces.  they might even use the same addresses.  you cannot simply use one process's memory address in another.
2014-10-05T10:52:36Z francogrex: hmm
2014-10-05T10:52:41Z |3b|: not being able to access another process' memory is a pretty important feature of 'modern' OS
2014-10-05T10:52:45Z francogrex: no turn around?
2014-10-05T10:52:59Z H4ns: francogrex: all operating systems have shared memory operations that allow you to access the same memory from two processes.  but you may be better off using a safer interprocess communication mechanism
2014-10-05T10:53:00Z francogrex: mmap?
2014-10-05T10:53:13Z H4ns: francogrex: mmap can be used to share memory, yes.
2014-10-05T10:53:18Z francogrex: ok
2014-10-05T10:53:53Z francogrex: thing is I'm now on windows os, not really posix friendly...
2014-10-05T10:54:20Z H4ns: francogrex: windows has shared memory, too.
2014-10-05T10:55:40Z francogrex will do more research on shared memory in win32
2014-10-05T10:57:20Z H4ns: francogrex: shared memory is tricky business because of the required synchronization.  there are many alternatives which are both safer and easier to use.
2014-10-05T10:57:31Z H4ns: francogrex: like sockets, or named pipes.
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2014-10-05T10:58:13Z shka: ave tux
2014-10-05T10:59:06Z francogrex: yes the other app uses well named pipes: http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/hostwin/63285/HTML/default/viewer.htm#named.htm
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2014-10-05T11:13:43Z francogrex: nice it works. Now I need to figure an easy way for lisp to be the client of the named pipe... process-output stuff
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2014-10-05T11:47:09Z chitofan: do ({var | (var [init-form [step-form]])}*) (end-test-form result-form*) declaration* {tag | statement}*
2014-10-05T11:47:13Z chitofan: how does one read this?
2014-10-05T11:47:48Z chitofan: ({var | (var [init-form [step-form]])}*) from this, is it something like ((src)) or ((src lst (cdr src)))
2014-10-05T11:47:56Z chitofan: | is or?
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2014-10-05T11:51:58Z ggole: | is or, [...] is optional
2014-10-05T11:53:22Z chitofan: just curious, when would you need to declare a variable in do without an init-form and step-form?
2014-10-05T11:53:38Z chitofan: the examples on clhs all show with init-form and step-form
2014-10-05T11:54:20Z ggole: For consistency with let, I think?
2014-10-05T11:54:54Z ggole: clhs do
2014-10-05T11:54:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm
2014-10-05T11:55:27Z chitofan: huh
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2014-10-05T11:56:03Z chitofan: i think i'll understand better with an example..
2014-10-05T11:56:07Z chitofan: but thanks anyway ggole
2014-10-05T11:56:30Z ggole: Yeah, seems so http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss358_w.htm
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2014-10-05T12:16:57Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143944
2014-10-05T12:17:16Z chitofan: is it correct to say that result-form in dolist is the same as step-form in do?
2014-10-05T12:17:43Z |3b|: without any context, it doesn't sound particularly correct
2014-10-05T12:17:50Z chitofan: otherwise i can't understand how #'most parses through the first element of the list
2014-10-05T12:17:58Z |3b|: step-form steps, result-form generates results
2014-10-05T12:18:40Z chitofan: here'sthe context
2014-10-05T12:18:42Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143944#1
2014-10-05T12:19:29Z |3b|: that paste doesn't use result-form in the DOLIST
2014-10-05T12:19:49Z chitofan: i thought it's (var list-form [result-form])?
2014-10-05T12:20:01Z |3b|: it has a variable OBJ and a list-form (cdr lst), result-form is optional
2014-10-05T12:20:08Z chitofan: oh ....
2014-10-05T12:20:37Z chitofan: how do i know if result-form is optional, because the clhs entry doesn't say so
2014-10-05T12:20:43Z chitofan: or is it the [ ] brackets?
2014-10-05T12:20:59Z |3b|: right
2014-10-05T12:21:24Z chitofan: where can i read more on what all these | [ ] { } means?
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2014-10-05T12:21:44Z |3b|: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backus%E2%80%93Naur_Form
2014-10-05T12:21:51Z |3b|: clhs 1.4.1.2
2014-10-05T12:21:51Z specbot: Modified BNF Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dab.htm
2014-10-05T12:22:30Z |3b|: or just pick it up over time from looking at things like CLHS that use it
2014-10-05T12:22:49Z chitofan: ok :) thank you
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2014-10-05T12:58:49Z chitofan: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143945#1
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2014-10-05T12:58:54Z chitofan: does anybody know what is the -> ?
2014-10-05T12:58:57Z chitofan: i can't find it
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2014-10-05T12:59:42Z guicho: -> ?
2014-10-05T13:00:01Z chitofan: the fn-> in the second line
2014-10-05T13:00:55Z ggole: That's just part of the symbol
2014-10-05T13:01:30Z shka: chitofan: you wrote this code yoursefl?
2014-10-05T13:01:38Z madrik: chitofan: what are talking about?  I don't see any arrow in a w3m buffer in Emacs.
2014-10-05T13:01:53Z chitofan: no, im going through "on lisp"
2014-10-05T13:02:01Z chitofan: (map-> fn
2014-10-05T13:02:12Z chitofan: sorry not fn-> but map->
2014-10-05T13:02:48Z |3b|: just part of the name
2014-10-05T13:02:49Z madrik: chitofan: It must have been defined somewhere outside the function.
2014-10-05T13:03:25Z shka: ah on lisp
2014-10-05T13:03:30Z shka: i don't like this book
2014-10-05T13:03:44Z shka: but good luck with readind code there :P
2014-10-05T13:03:53Z chitofan: ohh.. i missed it. the author defines the function fn-> later on
2014-10-05T13:03:57Z chitofan: i thought it was some weird syntax, sorry
2014-10-05T13:03:58Z shka: yes
2014-10-05T13:04:09Z shka: no, it is just on lisp
2014-10-05T13:04:19Z shka: that's why i don't like this book
2014-10-05T13:04:22Z ggole: Graham likes to introduce things that way
2014-10-05T13:04:24Z chitofan: why?
2014-10-05T13:04:25Z shka: ;-)
2014-10-05T13:05:24Z shka: well, on lisp is confusing in some areas
2014-10-05T13:05:43Z shka: actually, in major areas :P
2014-10-05T13:05:56Z Grue`: this shouldn't be confusing, there's no syntax that can appear *after* the symbol
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2014-10-05T13:06:31Z guicho: I guess he wrote his code first and then wrote the book
2014-10-05T13:06:59Z guicho: so the text is organized as he reads his own code
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2014-10-05T13:15:18Z moore33: yo
2014-10-05T13:15:18Z minion: moore33, memo from pjb: experts also go to #clnoobs, to help newbies.  I don't give the same answers on #lisp as on #clnoobs.
2014-10-05T13:15:18Z minion: moore33, memo from pjb: when reading logs, you obviously use a reader macro for #<.
2014-10-05T13:15:33Z moore33: Well thank you pjb.
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2014-10-05T13:29:14Z guicho: anyone familiar with differences among implementations in signal handling on cl?
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2014-10-05T13:33:02Z kuanyui1: Any way to "mapcar a list of numbers and return the list which elements larger 5", WITHOUT side-effect?
2014-10-05T13:33:22Z kuanyui1: without remove-if
2014-10-05T13:33:29Z guicho: without?
2014-10-05T13:34:01Z kuanyui1: without side-effect and `remove-if`
2014-10-05T13:34:20Z guicho: and still using mapcar?
2014-10-05T13:35:08Z kuanyui1: Any function without side-effect is ok.
2014-10-05T13:35:17Z guicho: (remove nil (mapcar (lambda (x) (if (> x 5) x nil)) list))
2014-10-05T13:36:36Z ggole: What's wrong with remove-if?
2014-10-05T13:38:21Z kuanyui1: I just want to know if there's any method beyond these tools to do this .
2014-10-05T13:38:50Z guicho: I wonder what do you mean by "side effect"
2014-10-05T13:39:17Z H4ns: kuanyui1: there are plenty methods.  is this a homework question?
2014-10-05T13:39:25Z kuanyui1: No.
2014-10-05T13:39:38Z H4ns: kuanyui1: then why do you not want remove-if?
2014-10-05T13:39:40Z ggole: You could use remove with :test, loop, write it yourself using do...
2014-10-05T13:39:57Z guicho: (let ((i 0)) (setf i 1) i) uses side-effect internally, but it does not affect the outer environment, so it can be said to have not side effect
2014-10-05T13:39:59Z H4ns: or loop, if you are sane and have some taste.
2014-10-05T13:40:14Z kuanyui1: Because I'm learning Haskell, and I'm just curious about how to translate the example in tutorial into Lisp.
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2014-10-05T13:40:33Z wasamasa: ...
2014-10-05T13:40:38Z kuanyui1: (blush)
2014-10-05T13:40:42Z ggole: (loop for elt in list when (> elt 5) collect elt)
2014-10-05T13:40:57Z madrik: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (> x 5)) (mapcar <function> <list>))
2014-10-05T13:42:04Z madrik: You could define an alias function #'keep-if for #'remove-if-not because that might read better.
2014-10-05T13:42:48Z madrik: ggole: That form is very easy to read
2014-10-05T13:43:38Z madrik: ggole: But what about the transforming function for the mapcar as kuanyui1 mentioned?
2014-10-05T13:44:04Z madrik: ...collect (<function> elt)   ?
2014-10-05T13:44:20Z ggole: That depends on whether you want the transformation after the test or before it
2014-10-05T13:44:29Z madrik: ggole: Okay.
2014-10-05T13:44:40Z guicho: (let ((i 0)) (defun take1 () (incf i) (elt i list)))    (defun rec (&optional acc) (let ((taken (take1))) (if (< 5 taken) (rec acc) (rec (cons taken acc))))
2014-10-05T13:45:30Z H4ns: guicho: that is a very inefficient and unidiomatic way to implement it.
2014-10-05T13:45:42Z guicho: I know :)
2014-10-05T13:47:36Z guicho: but I thought this kind would be interesting for haskell learner who enjoy infinite-length list etc
2014-10-05T13:48:11Z guicho: and I know the implementation is not complete at all
2014-10-05T13:48:22Z wasamasa: just because it's possible to write haskell in other languages doesn't mean you should do it
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2014-10-05T13:48:42Z H4ns: haskell learners would well be catered in a haskell channel
2014-10-05T13:48:44Z wasamasa remembers explaining a co-worker what the "Maybe" type in his java code was supposed to be
2014-10-05T13:49:35Z guicho: actually I've never coded in haskell
2014-10-05T13:51:13Z guicho: btw H4ns: how did you changed our text color? I'm new to IRC
2014-10-05T13:51:24Z guicho: sorry "your"
2014-10-05T13:51:34Z H4ns: guicho: i did not change my text color.
2014-10-05T13:51:46Z H4ns: guicho: it is your client that does it.
2014-10-05T13:52:43Z guicho: I see. the ones that mention my name are colored in red
2014-10-05T13:52:55Z guicho: thanks
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2014-10-05T13:53:52Z Grue`: kuanyui1: were you thinking of mapcan? (mapcan (lambda (x) (and (> x 5) (list x))) list)
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2014-10-05T13:59:16Z madrik: guicho: Do you use ERC?
2014-10-05T13:59:47Z kuanyui1: Grue`: @A@ I've never heard that
2014-10-05T14:02:01Z guicho: ERC: irc client? I'm using xchat on ubuntu
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2014-10-05T14:02:57Z madrik: guicho: I asked because ERC (in Emacs) does first person coloring as well.
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2014-10-05T14:04:35Z guicho: anyway, I'll check that out later, thanks.
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2014-10-05T14:07:26Z madrik: guicho: You are welcome.
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2014-10-05T15:23:46Z CrazyWoods: which GUI toolkit are suggest for common lisp?
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2014-10-05T15:46:33Z shka: CrazyWoods: some try to use qt bindings
2014-10-05T15:46:41Z shka: but i don't know if it is any good
2014-10-05T15:50:04Z inklesspen: CrazyWoods: html and a web browser
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2014-10-05T16:01:38Z CrazyWoods: :)
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2014-10-05T16:13:34Z Shinmera: CommonQt works if you're willing to introduce a more ALGOL-ish look into your code and don't mind caring about object-deallocation.
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2014-10-05T16:17:05Z francogrex: this way I am using to read-pipes fails anyone has an idea why? http://paste.lisp.org/display/143949
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2014-10-05T16:29:18Z Grue`: francogrex: \ in C vs / in SBCL?
2014-10-05T16:29:42Z francogrex: yes i am using sbcl
2014-10-05T16:30:03Z Grue`: i see that you're using sbcl, my point is that your filenames are different
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2014-10-05T16:32:41Z francogrex: how?
2014-10-05T16:34:13Z francogrex: note that when the pipe is closed the error is different: error opening #P"//./pipe/women": No such file or directory
2014-10-05T16:34:45Z francogrex: so I don't think it's related to filename syntax but something else
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2014-10-05T16:37:58Z francogrex: and when pipe is open/active: (probe-file "//./pipe/women") => #P"//./pipe/women/"  else (probe-file "//./pipe/women") => nil
2014-10-05T16:39:54Z drmeister: Oh man, Common Lisp is awesome.   The Clasp compiler is written in pidgin Common Lisp with no CLOS, no LOOP, no restarts.  To make COMPILE-FILE be compatible with ASDF (and just make it behave in a sane way) I need to use restarts.  So I make a few changes to it under the control of the #+ecl-min and #-ecl-min features and voila! I have a COMPILE-FILE that
2014-10-05T16:39:54Z drmeister: does not use restarts during bootstrapping but does use restarts when compiling full Common Lisp.
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2014-10-05T16:42:05Z drmeister: This is why I want Common Lisp for scientific programming.
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2014-10-05T17:34:01Z pjb: minion: memo for chitofan: you could at least read the introduction of clhs!!!  www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_dab.htm
2014-10-05T17:34:01Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell chitofan when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-10-05T17:34:46Z pjb: minion: memo for chitofan: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddt.htm
2014-10-05T17:34:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell chitofan when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-10-05T17:37:59Z pjb: minion: memo for chitofan: you can read about #\- and #\> (making the "->" suffix in map->) in: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ac.htm and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_ad.htm  (hint: they are just like #\a or #\b).
2014-10-05T17:37:59Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell chitofan when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-10-05T17:42:08Z pjb: wasamasa: I'm curious: what did the java MayBe class did when trying to reference an absent object?  Signal a NullException?
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2014-10-05T17:43:01Z pjb: wasamasa: or the programs using it?
2014-10-05T17:45:46Z pjb: void public m(MayBe<String> s){ if(s==null){new NullException().throw();}else{s.when(new Runnable(){void public run(String s){doSomething(s);}}).else(new Runnable(){void public run(MayBe<String> s){new NullException().throw();}}) }} // perhaps?
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2014-10-05T17:53:26Z wasamasa: pjb: yeah, something like that
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2014-10-05T17:54:28Z wasamasa: pjb: it was an utility class for abstracting code
2014-10-05T17:54:42Z wasamasa: pjb: because the guy who wrote it got fed up with checking for null values all the time
2014-10-05T17:55:08Z wasamasa: pjb: it returned another encapsulated object that was supposed to be a NilClass
2014-10-05T17:55:17Z chase_gray: is there a way to return multiple values per element in list with mapcar - for instance (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (values-list (list 'a x))) '(1 2 3)) returns (A A A) as opposed to '(A 1 A 2 A 3)
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2014-10-05T18:02:40Z ggole: chase_gray: not with mapcar, but maybe mapcan will do what you want
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2014-10-05T18:12:24Z shka: you can always return list in lambda, and then apply 'append
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2014-10-05T18:33:19Z Grue`: shka: that is very inefficient compared to mapcan
2014-10-05T18:33:44Z shka: certainly
2014-10-05T18:33:57Z shka: but it is still linear
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2014-10-05T19:22:46Z manfoo7`: Hi, Iam lost in common lisp package loading
2014-10-05T19:23:13Z manfoo7`: I am trying to run PAIP examples from http://norvig.com/paip/README.html
2014-10-05T19:23:22Z drewc thinks: Poor Iam, wonders what else they have going on! 
2014-10-05T19:23:42Z shka: manfoo7`: hm, you know that package is in fact just namespace?
2014-10-05T19:24:17Z manfoo7`: shka: I read a little bit on it, and I understood that
2014-10-05T19:24:43Z shka: that's good
2014-10-05T19:24:46Z manfoo7`: shka: Now I think I need more practice to fully grasp this system
2014-10-05T19:24:53Z drewc: manfoo7: ahh .. well in that case, you realize that the code in PAIP is, well, not quite modern?
2014-10-05T19:24:54Z shka: so how do you load files?
2014-10-05T19:26:04Z manfoo7`: shka: As I understand it, he provides some metafile auxfns.lisp that checks the environment
2014-10-05T19:26:17Z shka: well, i did not tried to load it myself
2014-10-05T19:26:18Z drewc: http://norvig.com/paip/auxfns.lisp
2014-10-05T19:26:38Z wasamasa: what is excl even
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2014-10-05T19:26:47Z shka: do we have some asd repackage?
2014-10-05T19:26:55Z manfoo7`: shka: In sbcl and clisp, I get a continuable error telling me that common-lisp is locked
2014-10-05T19:27:23Z manfoo7`: shka: unlocking it, I stumble on the next require instruction
2014-10-05T19:27:33Z shka: http://archive.debian.net/uk/etch/all/cl-paip/filelist
2014-10-05T19:27:39Z shka: that's interesting
2014-10-05T19:27:42Z shka: but not related
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2014-10-05T19:28:08Z shka: manfoo7`: https://github.com/zlatozar/study-paip/blob/master/study-paip.asd
2014-10-05T19:28:26Z shka: i did not tried but it may work way better
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2014-10-05T19:28:48Z shka: good night all
2014-10-05T19:29:03Z shka: manfoo7`: hopefully you can figure this out :)
2014-10-05T19:29:07Z Vivitron`: manfoo7`: what happens when you run the require?
2014-10-05T19:29:13Z drewc: manfoo7 why do you stumble, what is the surface beneath you?
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2014-10-05T19:30:54Z manfoo7`: Vivitron`: I get : file-write-date with files that do not exist
2014-10-05T19:31:51Z drewc: manfoo7`: Have you tried a different path, or a different fork in the road? Perhaps other folks have stumbled along the same trail. https://github.com/oubiwann/cl-paip perhaps?
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2014-10-05T19:34:23Z manfoo7`: drewc: Yeah, I didn't think this loading system has changed that much and thought the author page was uptodate and the problem was with my ignorance
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2014-10-05T19:34:56Z drewc: manfoo7`: (ql:quickload "paiprolog") is likely a different path than the one you are stumbling upon, but it does produce [package paiprolog.auxfns]
2014-10-05T19:34:56Z manfoo7`: drewc: But, if it is just old stuff, I am looking for some patches
2014-10-05T19:35:31Z manfoo7`: drewc: yeah, may be it loads only the stuff of the Prolog chapter
2014-10-05T19:35:42Z manfoo7`: drewc: I am still halfway in the book
2014-10-05T19:35:51Z drewc: may be?
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2014-10-05T19:37:00Z drewc: So, http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ , install that, and learn.
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2014-10-05T19:38:19Z manfoo7`: drewc: Thank you all, one of the links contained patches that worked
2014-10-05T19:38:43Z drewc: maybe[1] it has all the source files, and perhaps it has everything installed via quicklisp!
2014-10-05T19:39:06Z drewc: 1 : http://www.thefreedictionary.com/MAYBE
2014-10-05T19:39:28Z Vivitron`: manfoo7`: good to hear
2014-10-05T19:40:51Z manfoo7`: drewc: my response was just based on the name of the package: paiprolog
2014-10-05T19:41:29Z drewc: manfoo7`: Yay! It is a great book, but do realize that things have changed somewhat in CL in the last 22 years. It was standardized, and we even moved past the standard.
2014-10-05T19:41:30Z manfoo7`: drewc: paip indeed implements prolog, but I am not interested in that for the moment, thank you anyway
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2014-10-05T19:42:26Z manfoo7`: drewc: I know, but the book has good reviews and I find the code quite elegant
2014-10-05T19:42:29Z drewc: manfoo7`: that "package" has everything in PAIP ... but again, if you do not want to learn and prefer your own approach, nothing I can do.
2014-10-05T19:43:18Z drewc: I have the book, bought it at MIT Coop and have it signed by Norvig ... it is a wonderful book.
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2014-10-05T19:44:08Z drewc: Still use a lot of things outlined in it every day ...
2014-10-05T19:44:14Z drewc: minion: PAIP?
2014-10-05T19:44:14Z minion: PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP
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2014-10-05T19:44:36Z drewc: minion: Are you eliza?
2014-10-05T19:44:37Z minion: maybe
2014-10-05T19:45:08Z manfoo7`: drewc: That is cool, so what book do YOU advice for more modern CL?
2014-10-05T19:47:06Z oGMo: "modern"?
2014-10-05T19:47:13Z drewc: On my shelf I have PAIP, AMOP, Land of Lisp and Practical Common Lisp. I can recommend all 4 of those, and yet define "modern".
2014-10-05T19:47:28Z oGMo: read PCL if you want a sortof more modern approach, i guess
2014-10-05T19:48:12Z drewc hates the package names of PCL related code ... foo.baz.bar.uggghhh .... ugh :)
2014-10-05T19:48:40Z oGMo: i don't recall those but i only sortof glanced through it at some point
2014-10-05T19:49:03Z drewc: manfoo7`: So, I have no advice for a more 'modern' CL book, as there is no such thing.
2014-10-05T19:49:08Z manfoo7`: Well, there is a timeless core in CL. By modern, I mean that presents code that may easily be tested with current implementations
2014-10-05T19:50:25Z oGMo: manfoo7`: er, again, CL is CL. there is one unrevised standard. code written 20 years ago runs fine.
2014-10-05T19:50:50Z oGMo: er wait, was the standard 95? close to 10 :p
2014-10-05T19:51:14Z oGMo: 20.. sigh. that said, some earlier lisp runs as well, by design
2014-10-05T19:51:20Z drewc: manfoo7`: "Modern" = http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ ... not a book, sorry ..... I can print out that page and bind it though!
2014-10-05T19:52:10Z oGMo: yeah plenty of modern _code_ .. cliki.net for a start. watch the github feed for day to day new stuff
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2014-10-05T19:53:18Z oGMo: PCL iirc covers perhaps hunchentoot and some similar stuff, i think (cl-ppcre?)
2014-10-05T19:53:26Z drewc: no
2014-10-05T19:54:09Z drewc: given that hunchentoot was not yet out (and was not called hunchentoot).... you may be a little too "modern"
2014-10-05T19:54:36Z oGMo: ah, well, reading it for specific packages like that is the worst reason anyway .. once you know the language and how to find/get stuff you need (cliki, quicklisp), you have all the tools
2014-10-05T19:54:47Z oGMo: drewc: ah
2014-10-05T19:55:00Z drewc: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ <--- how about looking there and seeing/reading what the book has!
2014-10-05T19:55:08Z oGMo: tbnl .. seems ages ago now. i'd recommend toot anyway :p
2014-10-05T19:55:33Z drewc: yup, and PCL was aserve
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2014-10-05T19:59:24Z drewc: and, heh, it's own HTML generation stuff http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-an-html-generation-library-the-compiler.html , vs mine : https://github.com/drewc/yasexml/blob/master/yasexml.org .... it took me some 10 years, but mine is _way_ better! :P
2014-10-05T19:59:38Z drewc: s/it's/its
2014-10-05T20:02:01Z litian_: time
2014-10-05T20:02:33Z dim: can I force sb-impl::*default-external-format* to :utf-8 (say) when starting my SBCL image? I mean, dragons lie here, or will it just work?
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2014-10-05T20:08:05Z drewc: dim: I remember having some problems with that, but that was sbcl 0.8.14 or something, IIRC it has something to do with the terminal it was running at expecting latin where it as ucs or something ridiculous like that.
2014-10-05T20:08:19Z Grue`: i get a feeling of deja vu as well
2014-10-05T20:08:30Z Grue`: for this exact symbol
2014-10-05T20:09:41Z dim: drewc: ok so that's the environment not really SBCL
2014-10-05T20:09:47Z dim: but it makes sense not to force things then
2014-10-05T20:10:07Z dim: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 ./build/bin/pgloader --version --debug
2014-10-05T20:10:18Z dim: yeah I confirm it's doing something sensible with the env, perfect
2014-10-05T20:10:45Z Grue`: heh, I remembered, I had to put it into my .sbclrc so that unicode stuff works on SBCL
2014-10-05T20:10:50Z Grue`: (setf sb-impl::*default-external-format* :utf-8)
2014-10-05T20:12:03Z drewc: dim: yeah, exactly... and heh, what Grue`said also rings a bell... regardless, if `env` is now correct and `sbcl` DTRT, then you win! :)
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2014-10-05T20:13:13Z Grue`: the problem I had is probably Windows-only so I don't really advice doing this in general
2014-10-05T20:13:28Z dim: well in my case I can't guess what the env will look like when the user runs pgloader, it's more that I now see it makes no sense to force it into speaking UTF8
2014-10-05T20:13:47Z dim: the external format is settable easily when reading from files and network, so it's all good
2014-10-05T20:14:18Z dim: I'm quite pleased overall with the charset and encoding behavior of CL, the character type and external formats make it way simpler to work with than it is in python
2014-10-05T20:14:42Z dim: or any other language I've been using in the past, really, which all lacked a proper character type...
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2014-10-05T20:17:33Z drewc remembers 10 years ago .... and is quite glad that we can now be "pleased overall with the charset and encoding"... there was a while there ... :| 
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2014-10-05T20:20:03Z drewc: For that matter, 7 years ago encoding was a big problem as well .... and though it does seem to have pleased, dim is still making sure .... sigh... at least bits and bytes are growing 8-)
2014-10-05T20:20:34Z dim: encoding still is a big problem
2014-10-05T20:20:43Z dim: CL comes with proper tooling is all I'm saying
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2014-10-05T20:23:27Z drewc: agreed
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2014-10-05T20:54:29Z dim: mm, I need name for another pure cl mysql driver
2014-10-05T20:54:47Z dim: http://www.obrezan.com/lisp/mysql/ --- trying to port that out of LW only, good progress so far
2014-10-05T20:55:06Z dim: well still surprising things and bugs, but at least I got it to connect, do queries and get back results
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2014-10-05T21:07:16Z dim: it's strange, whatever the query I send, the 3 next calls get back the result from before, then it switches to actually getting the results from the current call
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2014-10-05T21:16:08Z chase_gray: Sorry because i already asked this, but my computer died so i couldn't see any responses; is there any way to use return multiple values with mapcar, i.e. using something like (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (values-list (list 'a x))) '(1 2 3)) to return (A 1 A 2 A 3) as opposed to (A A A)?
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2014-10-05T21:20:32Z prxq: chase_gray: you can collect lists of resulting values and then flatten the result
2014-10-05T21:20:53Z prxq: using alexandria:flatten, for example
2014-10-05T21:21:32Z chase_gray: mm, that seems to work out
2014-10-05T21:21:48Z H4ns: chase_gray: you could also use values-list outside of the map and use mapcan instead of mapcar
2014-10-05T21:21:49Z ggole: <ggole> chase_gray: not with mapcar, but maybe mapcan will do what you want
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2014-10-05T21:24:01Z chase_gray: oh, i think mapcan would work actually, thanks!
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2014-10-05T22:04:54Z Xach: atgreen: did you figure out your common-lisp-stat question?
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2014-10-05T22:07:42Z atgreen: Xach: nope
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2014-10-05T22:11:15Z Xach: atgreen: the system is named "cls"
2014-10-05T22:11:54Z atgreen: Xach: d'oh!  Thanks.
2014-10-05T22:12:14Z atgreen: Wasn't expecting the system name to be different from the package name.
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2014-10-05T22:13:10Z Xach: atgreen: that happens quite a bit, actually
2014-10-05T22:13:26Z atgreen: Xach: btw - I was trying cl-stomp today and found a bug. Do you apply patches, or just take what comes from upstream?
2014-10-05T22:13:59Z Xach: atgreen: i take upstream. best to send a patch there.
2014-10-05T22:14:31Z Xach: atgreen: i sometimes wear an "abandoned projects minimal maintainer" hat, but it's a different one from my "quicklisp maintainer" hat
2014-10-05T22:15:25Z Xach: i much prefer other people maintain stuff
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2014-10-05T22:16:27Z atgreen: ok, I'll send them a patch
2014-10-05T22:17:11Z atgreen: thanks again for quicklisp. I'm always looking for an excuse to do some lisp hacking, and quicklisp makes it much easier.
2014-10-05T22:17:18Z Xach: fare seems to be the best person to email
2014-10-05T22:17:24Z Xach: no problem, glad it helps
2014-10-05T22:17:50Z atgreen: btw... I'm reponsible for two related things, one good(ish) and one bad.
2014-10-05T22:18:10Z atgreen: first, the bad, which is the inclusion of common-lisp-controller in Fedora/CentOS.
2014-10-05T22:18:15Z atgreen: I think we should take it out.
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2014-10-05T22:18:45Z atgreen: It made sense when we were thinking of packaging lisp code with the OS, but that didn't pan out and quicklisp exploded.
2014-10-05T22:19:16Z atgreen: Xach: any opinins either way on that?
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2014-10-05T22:21:13Z Xach: atgreen: I haven't had any good experiences with common-lisp-controller. i know some (few) like it, but i don't. i think it might have been a good idea in some context that i'm not privy to. i'd love to see less of it.
2014-10-05T22:21:59Z Xach: i held that opinion pre-quicklisp, too
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2014-10-05T22:22:31Z atgreen: I'm also the author of libffi, and I was surprised when I tried to quickload a package yesterday and it failed because I didn't have libffi-devel installed on my box.  Any thoughts on building basic dependency/build checks prior to compiling code?
2014-10-05T22:23:41Z Xach: atgreen: i think it would be a good thing, but lots of work, because of the variety of systems on which CL runs.
2014-10-05T22:24:11Z Xach: i would like to start capturing foreign dependency info to at least get some data to work from, and see what builds from there
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2014-10-05T22:25:23Z atgreen: openssl is the other one that catches me (for cl+ssl, I think). The way it's built I have to load openssl-devel.  You don't really find out until late in the process.
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2014-10-05T22:29:42Z oGMo: atgreen: the worst is iolib, which requires a C library be compiled and installed from github, with no real info on what or where you get it
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2014-10-05T22:30:33Z Xach: It's available through package systems, too
2014-10-05T22:30:42Z oGMo: that must be new :P
2014-10-05T22:30:57Z Xach: debian 7 has it, for example, as libfixposix-dev
2014-10-05T22:30:59Z oGMo: (and i don't see it on this)
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2014-10-05T22:39:35Z pjb: manfoo7`: then if you want modern, by your definition, read "LISP 1.5 Programmer's Manual"! https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html.in  "Modern" is a meaningless notion with respect to lisp.  When you're using God's language, you're working in all eternity, time doesn't matter.
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2014-10-05T23:17:31Z faheem___: i've heard a lot of talk about common lisp controller, but i've never seen is actually working. is seems to be dead on Debian - before I got here, so to speak.
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2014-10-05T23:17:48Z faheem___: *seen it. it seems*...
2014-10-05T23:18:34Z faheem___: apparently a major reason people throw fits here when Debian packaging is mentioned. maybe not the only one...
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2014-10-05T23:30:19Z drewc: faheem___: certainly not the only one, but it is/was a major one truthfully.
2014-10-05T23:33:10Z drewc: I can understand that, before quicklisp and even before asdf-install, there some need and a desire to fulfill it ... but in the end it did not work out that way.
2014-10-05T23:41:36Z faheem___: drewc: apparently.
2014-10-05T23:42:01Z faheem___: since i've never used it, i don't have an opinion
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2014-10-05T23:44:11Z faheem___: though it is unfortunate if one of the results has been a violent aversion to the very mention of Debian packaging.
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