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I think it would have to be provided by the implementation. 2014-10-01T02:27:18Z ogamita quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T02:29:41Z ruste joined #lisp 2014-10-01T02:30:44Z lisper29 left #lisp 2014-10-01T02:31:34Z pillton: Yes, the "original arguments" requirement makes it so. Consider the following form (list (func-exists) (func-does-not 1 2)). 2014-10-01T02:33:16Z pillton: If FUNC-EXISTS modifies its lexical environment when computing its return value, then one cannot simply reevaluate the form with FUNC-DOES-NOT defined. 2014-10-01T02:33:57Z Bike: uh? alters which lexical environment, exactly? 2014-10-01T02:34:21Z pillton: (let ((x 1)) (defun func-exists () (incf x))) 2014-10-01T02:35:38Z Bike: well, we're talking about restarts, so probably something is supposed to fix it up during the sole evaluation of (func-does-not 1 2) 2014-10-01T02:36:18Z pillton: Yes, but by that time FUNC-EXISTS may have already been called. 2014-10-01T02:36:30Z pillton: Which means the restart has to be provided by the implementation. 2014-10-01T02:36:48Z Bike: oh. well right. 2014-10-01T02:37:19Z c107 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T02:38:17Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T02:40:07Z White_Flame: Is there a library that does UTF-8Z encoding? That's the variant in Java which ensures that (code-char 0) embedded in strings come out as double-byte, nonzero tags 2014-10-01T02:40:44Z Bike: probably babel, if anything 2014-10-01T02:41:25Z White_Flame: that's the name I couldn't remember. *checks* 2014-10-01T02:43:05Z White_Flame: no, utf-8z, but it does have the utf-8b variant, so they might be amenable to a utf-8z addition 2014-10-01T02:46:15Z xyjprc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T02:48:11Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-01T02:52:09Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-01T02:52:09Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-01T02:53:31Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-10-01T02:57:09Z karswell` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T03:00:01Z codeburg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T03:00:30Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:03:28Z phao quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-01T03:05:33Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:06:20Z zacts joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:08:19Z normanrichards joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:08:38Z drmeister_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T03:28:13Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:30:36Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister_ 2014-10-01T03:33:03Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T03:37:19Z drmeister_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-10-01T03:39:23Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T03:40:44Z zyaku quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T03:41:14Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:41:36Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:41:48Z drmeiste_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T03:43:39Z loke: White_Flame: you shoul dbe able to use cl-iconv 2014-10-01T03:44:20Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-10-01T03:46:55Z ahungry quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T03:47:23Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T03:49:22Z ahungry joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:55:35Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-10-01T03:59:38Z izirku quit 2014-10-01T03:59:47Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:00:05Z erikc quit (Quit: erikc) 2014-10-01T04:05:05Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T04:05:08Z marchdown quit (Quit: marchdown) 2014-10-01T04:06:41Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-10-01T04:10:41Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T04:10:45Z beach joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:10:56Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-10-01T04:10:56Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: don't worry, scientist say menopause will disappear in a few years! http://guardianlv.com/2014/09/scientist-claims-menopause-will-not-exist-in-20-years-time/ :-) 2014-10-01T04:11:23Z drmeister: Good morning beach 2014-10-01T04:11:54Z pillton: morning beach. 2014-10-01T04:13:40Z drmeister: beach: How are things going? We have confirmation of Clasp building on more systems. There were a couple of web articles written about. It's all very exciting. 2014-10-01T04:13:59Z beach: drmeister: That's great! 2014-10-01T04:14:20Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations! 2014-10-01T04:15:02Z drmeister: I showed them to my department chair to day and to explain why I'd missed so many faculty meetings and why I hide away in my office all the time. 2014-10-01T04:15:36Z beach: What did the department chair say? 2014-10-01T04:15:47Z drmeister: He was very impressed. 2014-10-01T04:16:07Z c107 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:16:08Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:16:42Z beach: Can he influence your career? 2014-10-01T04:16:43Z drmeister: I've brought a lot of funding into the department over the past five years - I'm not in any danger but with the current funding slump it's nice to get to a milestone with Clasp. 2014-10-01T04:17:00Z beach: Ah, yes, I see. 2014-10-01T04:17:17Z drmeister: Somewhat but it's not something I worry about. I became full professor this year. 2014-10-01T04:17:25Z beach: Good. 2014-10-01T04:18:25Z drmeister: I told him this more because it's good to let the people who are watching your back know why they are watching your back. 2014-10-01T04:18:46Z beach: Makes sense. 2014-10-01T04:20:19Z marchdown joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:21:26Z drmeister: How is Cleavir coming along? 2014-10-01T04:21:38Z beach: Making steady progress. 2014-10-01T04:21:47Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:21:55Z beach: I have an AST interpreter, but I am not sure how to interpret TAGBODY-AST. 2014-10-01T04:22:06Z beach: And I am using it to test the AST generation. 2014-10-01T04:22:20Z drmeister: Ah. Yes TAGBODY-GO that's one of the first things I want to optimize. 2014-10-01T04:22:32Z drmeister: Currently I throw a C++ exception for every GO 2014-10-01T04:22:38Z beach: Wow! 2014-10-01T04:22:59Z Bike: parsing a tagbody into a couple lambdas that return to a trampoline isn't too bad. 2014-10-01T04:23:24Z beach: Bike: Is that advice for me or for drmeister? 2014-10-01T04:23:39Z drmeister: Yes. It turns out that C++ exceptions will be the only way to do GO across function boundaries. 2014-10-01T04:23:47Z Bike: I guess you? Though I imagine you know how to interpret tagbodies, you just want to do it fast 2014-10-01T04:23:57Z drmeister: Within a function I can optimize to use jumps. 2014-10-01T04:24:08Z beach: Bike: The interpreter is not designed to be fast. It's just a way for me to test the AST generation. 2014-10-01T04:24:19Z RenRenJuan joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:24:26Z Bike: oh, let me see then 2014-10-01T04:24:54Z beach: Right now the interpreter is just a recursive program, and TAGBODY/GO doesn't lend itself to that very much. 2014-10-01T04:25:16Z beach: I use CATCH/THROW to implement BLOCK/RETURN-FROM. 2014-10-01T04:25:55Z beach: ... but I don't see how to create multiple CATCH tags for the TAGBODY tags. 2014-10-01T04:26:30Z Bike: you have one catch tag for the trampoline. when you hit a GO, you throw the tag to the trampoline, and in the trampoline you call one of the functions based on the tag's value. 2014-10-01T04:26:33Z Bike: or something like that 2014-10-01T04:27:18Z drmeister: But you can have GO within nested functions - how do you handle that? 2014-10-01T04:27:33Z Bike: that's why it's a catch tag and not a block 2014-10-01T04:27:34Z beach: Bike: That sounds good. 2014-10-01T04:28:11Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:28:29Z Bike: of course lexically you have to ensure you compile the (go) form into a throw to the right tag. 2014-10-01T04:28:35Z beach: Bike: Thanks for giving me ideas. 2014-10-01T04:28:50Z Bike: no problem i guess. i think this was in a baker paper or something 2014-10-01T04:29:47Z drmeister: It's funny, I have only the vaguest idea what you mean. I implemented all three pairs separately and it's crystal clear to me how to implement them with C++ exception handling. But what you said - whaaa? 2014-10-01T04:30:12Z Bike: if you're using exceptions it's probably about the same thing, really. 2014-10-01T04:30:17Z Bike: i'll write it out, i need the practice anyway. 2014-10-01T04:30:23Z beach: :) 2014-10-01T04:30:26Z drmeister: Sometimes I think I speak another language. 2014-10-01T04:32:10Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T04:34:11Z drmeister: It turned out I had to use exceptions so as not to break C++ RAII. I tried to switch to setjmp/longjmp. Wow - bad idea. They completely bypass C++ exception handling and destructors aren't called. 2014-10-01T04:34:23Z Bike: It's my understanding that setjmp is insane. 2014-10-01T04:34:41Z beach: Not insane. Just very low level. 2014-10-01T04:35:00Z loke has never used setjmp in action 2014-10-01T04:35:08Z Bike: that insane form of "low level" a lot of C seems to be, you know? 2014-10-01T04:35:44Z beach: Sure. But setjmp/longjmp is the only mechanism you have in C that lets you implement something that resembles exceptions. 2014-10-01T04:35:59Z drmeister: It's one of the reason why I think starting from ECL to develop something like Clasp would have failed. The way I went I had something working and then broke it. It's much harder to have something that is broken from day one and then figure out what is wrong to get it working. 2014-10-01T04:36:14Z Bike: beach: have you read knuth's paper on goto? 2014-10-01T04:36:30Z beach: Bike: Doesn't ring a bell. 2014-10-01T04:37:03Z Bike: basically he defends using it because you can do "if (an error happened) goto handle_it; continue normally; ... handle_it:" 2014-10-01T04:37:04Z mcc joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:37:16Z Bike: can't cross scope boundaries, of course 2014-10-01T04:37:25Z mcc quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T04:38:12Z beach: Bike: I see. Back in the days when I was using Pascal professionally, I used goto to handle exceptional situations. 2014-10-01T04:38:15Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-10-01T04:38:37Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:38:52Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T04:38:59Z drmeister: It's less useful in C++ because it's often difficult to see where scope boundaries are. 2014-10-01T04:39:00Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T04:40:05Z drmeister: Parentheses are such a nice, clean way to denote scope. 2014-10-01T04:40:31Z wglb quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T04:40:53Z drmeister: Better than []{}<>;,() 2014-10-01T04:41:22Z drmeister: Ah well, preachin' to the choir. 2014-10-01T04:42:37Z beach: drmeister: [changing the subject] I know you are interested in C++ integration, but I keep thinking about the possibility of writing a translator for your particular chemistry code-base from C++ to Common Lisp. 2014-10-01T04:43:19Z beach: I know it aint gonna happen, but it still intrigues me. 2014-10-01T04:44:16Z drmeister: beach: you can look at it if you like, there's about 150,000 LOC and it's all kinds of complicated weird stuff in there. I even use Mathematica to calculate first and second analytical derivatives of a variety of functions and reduce them to efficient C code. 2014-10-01T04:45:15Z beach: drmeister: I might take you up on that some day. 2014-10-01T04:45:36Z drmeister: Some of it I plan to move into Common Lisp because C++ is just the wrong tool for the job and it's broken and I don't want to fix it. Stuff like bison parsers of esoteric molecular modeling related file formats. 2014-10-01T04:47:07Z drmeister: But everything gets compiled to LLVM-IR. That's my lingua franca. 2014-10-01T04:47:37Z beach: Sure. 2014-10-01T04:48:37Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T04:48:47Z beach vanishes for a while. 2014-10-01T04:49:18Z drmeister: The stuff that belongs in C++ is the complicated C++ classes and structs and the code that iterates over arrays of them and calculates things based on them. That wouldn't work well in Common Lisp - I think C++ is a great domain specific language for that kind of stuff. Although FORTRAN might be better. 2014-10-01T04:49:21Z marchdown quit (Quit: marchdown) 2014-10-01T04:49:53Z drmeister: So I'm not disagreeing - I just think it would be a difficult problem and I'm not certain it would be worth the effort. 2014-10-01T04:51:54Z drmeister: Anyway - I'm in my jammies and ready for bed - 'night all. 2014-10-01T04:52:03Z dmiles_afk quit (Quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 2014-10-01T04:57:06Z Bike: ta 2014-10-01T04:59:15Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:01:22Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:04:40Z nand1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T05:04:53Z zacts joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:05:16Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T05:05:39Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:05:59Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:06:16Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:06:21Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T05:09:22Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T05:11:43Z Bike: beach: http://sprunge.us/GAZD 2014-10-01T05:11:49Z wglb joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:12:38Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-10-01T05:14:58Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:15:35Z gz quit (Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T05:21:49Z beach: Bike: Thanks! 2014-10-01T05:41:50Z GuilOooo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:51:40Z nonamae joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:53:12Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:56:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T05:58:58Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:02:10Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:03:33Z beach: Bike: I think I'll do it a bit differently, but using the same idea. A GO will throw the corresponding TAG-AST to a catch tag for the TAGBODY. The interpreter for the TAGBODY sets the remaining statements as the list starting with that TAG-AST. 2014-10-01T06:04:47Z beach: We'll see whether it works. 2014-10-01T06:05:00Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:05:18Z Bike: yeah, i probably could have just written you an interpreter, too 2014-10-01T06:05:25Z Bike: not that it'd work with your asts, but 2014-10-01T06:06:48Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T06:08:09Z beach: It's fine. I understood the idea. 2014-10-01T06:08:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:10:15Z edgar-rfx is now known as edgar-rft 2014-10-01T06:13:12Z farhaven quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T06:16:29Z jackdaniel: is ecl comparable in speed with python? (or better/worse)? 2014-10-01T06:19:20Z DTSCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T06:20:12Z fridim__ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:20:30Z DTSCode joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:20:33Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: python as in, the sbcl compiler? 2014-10-01T06:21:05Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:21:17Z rtra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T06:21:37Z jackdaniel: wasamasa: nah, python as separate language 2014-10-01T06:22:14Z wasamasa: you must be kidding 2014-10-01T06:23:01Z rtra joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:23:15Z jackdaniel: well, not really, im just ignorant :p 2014-10-01T06:23:17Z wasamasa: python scores in benchmarks up to like 30x slower than C 2014-10-01T06:23:18Z Bike: python is pretty slow as far as i know 2014-10-01T06:23:25Z wasamasa: and that's what ECL compiles your code to 2014-10-01T06:23:42Z Bike: well, cpython anyway 2014-10-01T06:23:56Z jackdaniel: so ecl is far greater, great (: 2014-10-01T06:24:00Z jackdaniel: faster* 2014-10-01T06:24:02Z wasamasa: so unless the python code you're speaking of is cheating and using FFI or you're using an extremely fast JIT implementation 2014-10-01T06:24:13Z zRecursive: jackdaniel: ECL seems not maintained now 2014-10-01T06:24:13Z wasamasa: ECL should be faster 2014-10-01T06:24:19Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T06:24:34Z jackdaniel: zRecursive: well, there are some commits lately 2014-10-01T06:24:40Z wasamasa: you're of course able to fudge up and write worse performing code with CL 2014-10-01T06:24:47Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T06:24:51Z wasamasa: since that's not a language-specific property :P 2014-10-01T06:25:12Z H4ns: what is this "not maintained now" whining? as if a mature compiler needed constant nannying to be useable 2014-10-01T06:25:14Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:25:38Z jackdaniel: im looking for an argument to my boss, why should i implement "it" in ecl not python ;-) 2014-10-01T06:25:43Z wasamasa: ECL is apparently good enough to be used as one of the building blocks of another CL implementation 2014-10-01T06:25:53Z wasamasa: so I wouldn't really worry for now 2014-10-01T06:25:56Z jackdaniel: why ecl? because threads and armv5 2014-10-01T06:26:42Z jackdaniel: thanks for claryfing this :) 2014-10-01T06:26:49Z jegaxd26 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T06:27:28Z zRecursive: H4ns: Is sbcl mature ? it is still actively updated 2014-10-01T06:28:00Z MoALTz_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-01T06:28:06Z freaksken joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:28:51Z H4ns: zRecursive: i'm running sbcl 1.1.58 based applications no problem 2014-10-01T06:29:06Z zRecursive: neat 2014-10-01T06:31:08Z H4ns: there are production deployments of much much older versions of all kinds of lisp based systems. it is not as if we only started production deployments yesterday. 2014-10-01T06:31:25Z H4ns: that is why i don't understand the sentiment 2014-10-01T06:31:57Z theos joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:32:58Z wasamasa: jackdaniel: I assume you've already seen the news that SBCL has a pretty recent ARM port now 2014-10-01T06:34:27Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2014-10-01T06:35:04Z beach left #lisp 2014-10-01T06:36:29Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:37:10Z c107 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T06:40:06Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-10-01T06:40:10Z reb` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T06:40:22Z H4ns: clozure cl runs on arms since two years. 2014-10-01T06:40:58Z jackdaniel: wasamasa: of course, i'm even testing it, but its armv7 2014-10-01T06:41:04Z jackdaniel: and no threads so far 2014-10-01T06:41:16Z wasamasa: I see, thanks 2014-10-01T06:41:24Z jackdaniel: :) 2014-10-01T06:42:42Z H4ns: clozure cl has threads on arm 2014-10-01T06:42:59Z H4ns: and i think it supports armv5 (it runs on the raspi) 2014-10-01T06:43:06Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:45:12Z jackdaniel: raspi is armv6 afaik, but ill check later if it will run on armv5 2014-10-01T06:45:58Z Hydan` is now known as Hydan 2014-10-01T06:51:39Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:53:38Z andcs joined #lisp 2014-10-01T06:55:01Z p_l: raspi is armv6zk iirc 2014-10-01T06:56:05Z DTSCode: http://www.google.com/search?q=which+processor+does+rpi+use 2014-10-01T06:57:42Z andcs quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T06:58:00Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-10-01T06:58:04Z jackdaniel: hmm, according to ccl documentation it runs only on armv7 (what stays in contradiction with ability to run it on raspi) 2014-10-01T06:58:49Z p_l: jackdaniel: it was true on initial arm release, it's pissiblevthey missed buts in docs 2014-10-01T06:59:23Z p_l: raspi was afaik motive for supporting armv6 2014-10-01T06:59:58Z jackdaniel: so there are thick chances it will work on armv5? 2014-10-01T07:00:32Z p_l: jackdaniel: maaaaybe 2014-10-01T07:00:50Z jackdaniel: i think ecl should do the job - everybody is fine with python, and if ecl is faster then python nobody would complain (probably they would, but against lisp not ecl as is) 2014-10-01T07:01:02Z p_l: what hw are you trying? 2014-10-01T07:01:17Z jackdaniel: dm365 2014-10-01T07:01:25Z jackdaniel: from texas instruments 2014-10-01T07:02:12Z jackdaniel: davinci family 2014-10-01T07:02:58Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T07:05:58Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-10-01T07:05:59Z pranavrc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T07:06:51Z p_l: ARM926EJ-S... might be hard, but i'm unsure how many instructions gotintroduced in v6 and related that CCL uses 2014-10-01T07:07:45Z p_l: given that I'm pretty sure some of the changes involved MP, CCL's threading might use them 2014-10-01T07:07:57Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T07:12:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2014-10-01T07:13:32Z Guest35678 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T07:15:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-10-01T07:15:13Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-10-01T07:15:13Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-10-01T07:15:22Z Guest35678 quit 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2014-10-01T13:02:22Z zickzackv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T13:02:28Z fableal left #lisp 2014-10-01T13:05:42Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-01T13:07:19Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:07:51Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:13:14Z guicho joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:14:04Z rick-monster: hey I have a niggle with common lisp and was wondering whether I should look into using a reader macro to solve this. Basically I'd like to automatically make keywords case sensitive so I wouldn't end up having to add || round many of the keywords - so I'd be able to write :Keyword to achieve the same effect as :|Keyword| 2014-10-01T13:14:39Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T13:15:05Z rick-monster: or is this more or less asking for trouble and I should just live with the | | ? 2014-10-01T13:15:26Z Krystof: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert) 2014-10-01T13:15:55Z jackdaniel: rick-monster: btw why do you need case-sensitive keywords? 2014-10-01T13:16:50Z rick-monster: I'm using s-expressions to represent json using yason, and now also representing sql 2014-10-01T13:19:00Z rick-monster: or trying to - having some headaches getting s-sql to map to a mixed case table name 2014-10-01T13:19:49Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:19:50Z rick-monster: the || thing is not really going to solve my immediate problem but it's been bugging me having all this redundant syntax lying around 2014-10-01T13:21:21Z dlowe: rick-monster: you could use a string instead of a symbol? 2014-10-01T13:22:00Z dlowe: it's been a while since I used it, so maybe that wouldn't work after all 2014-10-01T13:22:45Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:23:31Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T13:23:58Z rick-monster: the rest of my code uses plists in an idiomatic way, and yason allows to just map those direct to JSON and back again. 2014-10-01T13:24:05Z Harag joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:26:26Z zeitue quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T13:26:58Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T13:27:47Z Guest62964 is now known as micro 2014-10-01T13:27:48Z normanrichards quit 2014-10-01T13:31:48Z Grue`: it needs to be pointed out that in case of Unicode characters, there's no one-to-one correspondence between lowercase and uppercase characters, i.e. Turkish has a letter that has 2 lowercase variants 2014-10-01T13:32:05Z Grue`: so the :invert conversion can break in this case 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teiresias j_king_ ozzloy_ gz eak Riviera __main__ jlarocco emma tokenrov1 Tuxedo_ girrig_ Krystof Odin- paroneayea DKordic`` alexherbo2 Soft dim enn ramus mikaelj_ viaken ThePhoeron john-mcaleely leoc xebd` bambams sellout edran les asedeno necronian lberk whartung rk[1] gniourf 2014-10-01T14:30:33Z names: zmyrgel clop ski stux|RC-only cmatei copec eMBee aerique Mandus gjvc yauz Anarch zbigniew_ anannie jsnell billstclair gregburd d4gg4d____ madmalik dan64 xristos Kabaka hugod marvin-hh aksatac vhost- _d3f Amaan clop2 faheem akkad ``Erik Hydan bend3r lobbes specbot hyoyoung Zhivago thierrygar loke tstc tbarletz sjl zymurgy minion TheMoonMaster gigetoo FracV sfa Haskellfant katco joshe schoppenhauer sid_cypher finnrobi honkfestival acieroid ered wasamasa 2014-10-01T14:30:33Z names: H4ns zz_karupa Jubb tvaalen diginet cwandrews jasom yeltzooo kjeldahl jdz keen__ aap_ vsync_ Intensity gabot eli Tristam scharan Ralt tessier Denommus newcup rp__ Okasu ecraven nicdev ineiros kreuter aoh mingvs Enfors Fade c74d z0d Oddity arbscht lemoinem AeroNotix antoszka vert2_ rotty_ manfoo7 Takumo sigjuice whmark tkd_ _5kg oconnore SHODAN joneshf lupine benny guaqua mtd yano tkd ck_ johs farawayexplorer _death p_l|backup brucem TristamWrk smull_ mood 2014-10-01T14:30:33Z names: malglim Subfusc killmaster birk sytse wormphle1m Khisanth inklesspen pok cross renard_ madnificent shwouchk schjetne peccu2 jayne njsg cibs j0ni luis cods wooden dlowe kyl_ spacebat Adeon ssake nightfly Ober redline6561 sivoais drdo s_e pchrist axion ircbrowse fe[nl]ix Blkt Tordek matko tomaw cmbntr_ stokachu eagleflo ttm quasisane mdallastella sshirokov ferada felideon nitro_idiot l3thal White_Flame funnel lagging_` Natch gensym kalzz someone djinni` 2014-10-01T14:30:33Z names: misv daimrod joga AntiSpamMeta |3b| samebchase sbryant gko fionnan mal_ foom 2014-10-01T14:30:35Z Xach: stuck there :( 2014-10-01T14:30:46Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T14:33:22Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 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2014-10-01T15:30:16Z stepnem joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:34:02Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T15:34:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T15:36:43Z Xach joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:41:13Z jusss quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T15:41:22Z marchdown quit (Quit: marchdown) 2014-10-01T15:44:41Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:44:48Z xyjprc joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:46:23Z xyjprc: Hi I am new to common lisp, glad to join here :-) 2014-10-01T15:46:51Z pjb: Good. Have a look at http://cliki.net/Getting+started 2014-10-01T15:47:18Z posterdati300 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-10-01T15:47:29Z xyjprc: Sure, I got emacs + slime + quicklisp installed already 2014-10-01T15:47:43Z xyjprc: I have one quick question 2014-10-01T15:48:21Z xyjprc: When I am trying to "print" something in a loop, slime doesn't show anything until the loop finishes 2014-10-01T15:48:51Z nyef: clhs finish-output 2014-10-01T15:48:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 2014-10-01T15:48:52Z xyjprc: (defun counting () 2014-10-01T15:48:52Z xyjprc: (dolist (i '(1 2 3 4 5)) 2014-10-01T15:48:52Z xyjprc: (print i) 2014-10-01T15:48:52Z xyjprc: (sleep 3))) 2014-10-01T15:48:52Z xyjprc: for example (do list (i '(1 2 3 4 5)) (print i) (sleep 3)) 2014-10-01T15:48:58Z H4ns: xyjprc: maybe you want finish-output 2014-10-01T15:48:59Z nyef: Please don't paste into the channel. 2014-10-01T15:49:05Z H4ns: xyjprc: and you want to use paste.lisp.org 2014-10-01T15:49:08Z pjb: xyjprc: have you ever programmed any computer? 2014-10-01T15:49:10Z xyjprc: I see 2014-10-01T15:49:23Z xyjprc: Yes I have been using Python before 2014-10-01T15:49:28Z pjb: xyjprc: have you ever seen a computer where you didn't have to flush buffers to see output? 2014-10-01T15:50:04Z pjb: python also has sys.stdout.flush() 2014-10-01T15:50:05Z Xach: I have seen such a computer 2014-10-01T15:50:07Z xyjprc: Do you mean I need to force "flush output"? 2014-10-01T15:50:16Z pjb: Xach: me too, but they're so old :-) 2014-10-01T15:50:19Z beach joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:50:23Z pjb: xyjprc: yes. 2014-10-01T15:50:26Z Xach: pjb: No, they are very new. 2014-10-01T15:50:39Z pjb: xyjprc: you can also use force-output instead of finish-output check the difference. 2014-10-01T15:50:41Z Xach: The circumstances under which you must flush output vary depending on the output source. 2014-10-01T15:50:45Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-10-01T15:50:56Z pjb: Xach: no, as an API, you must flush always. 2014-10-01T15:50:59Z Xach: A good rule of thumb is "if you don't see what you expect when you expect it, flush". But it is not always the case. 2014-10-01T15:51:11Z pjb: If only for CL conformity. 2014-10-01T15:51:37Z nyef: Hello beach. 2014-10-01T15:51:43Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:51:44Z xyjprc: I see. Thanks! I will try right now 2014-10-01T15:52:22Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-01T15:52:30Z pjb: The point is that a lot of programs using stdio are not used interactively, so flushing need only be done on closing/exiting. But for interactive programs using stdio, you alway sneed to flush. There's a major educational problem here. (Given the number of time this question is asked). 2014-10-01T15:52:57Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:53:47Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:53:54Z Xach: pjb: I don't think it's fruitful to ask "Have you seen a computer before?" The problem stems in part from PRINT's convention of outputting a newline prefix rather than suffix. It is not a matter of having no experience with computers or programming languages. 2014-10-01T15:54:14Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-10-01T15:54:14Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:54:24Z pjb: The question is also asked by C newbies. 2014-10-01T15:54:50Z Xach: Have they seen a computer before? 2014-10-01T15:54:59Z pjb: That's what I'm wondering. 2014-10-01T15:55:27Z pjb: But in the case of lisp newbies, the probabilities they've already programmed in other languages is higher than in case of C or Python. 2014-10-01T15:55:57Z varjag_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T15:58:29Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: stop with the bullshit, there are plenty of examples of un-buffered or line-buffered systems\ 2014-10-01T15:59:56Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:01:16Z pjb: fe[nl]ix: standard streams can be redirected to any kind of devices, therefore you must always use flush. 2014-10-01T16:01:26Z pjb: This is basic stdio programming. 2014-10-01T16:04:57Z Xach: You need not always flush. 2014-10-01T16:05:08Z beach: nyef: Did you see my suggestion that would migrate MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN to the leaves of panes, rather than being a direct superclass of BASIC-PANE? 2014-10-01T16:05:49Z beach: nyef: I would appreciate it if you would give it a few minutes of thought before I go ahead and do it. 2014-10-01T16:06:13Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:06:43Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:07:00Z Oberon4278 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:07:27Z nyef: beach: I didn't see... What was the justification? 2014-10-01T16:07:54Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-10-01T16:08:12Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:08:26Z beach: nyef: It is an "issue" on my McCLIM GitHub repository now, so you can read it there in detail. The reason is that the current state of things essentially forces every pane and gadget on every backend to be mirrored. 2014-10-01T16:08:44Z nyef: But they don't have to be directly mirrored. 2014-10-01T16:08:46Z beach: nyef: And I want to write a variant of the CLX backend that does not use mirrord sheets. 2014-10-01T16:09:12Z nyef: ... Wha? Why? The entire point of a mirror is that it is the actual output substrate. 2014-10-01T16:09:25Z beach: Yes, I just want the graft to be mirrored. 2014-10-01T16:09:41Z nyef: So? Just don't create direct mirrors. 2014-10-01T16:10:05Z beach: What makes you think that would work? 2014-10-01T16:10:13Z nyef: Because that's how the protocol is designed? 2014-10-01T16:10:27Z nyef: Because that's how it has to work on classic MacOS? 2014-10-01T16:10:33Z beach: There must be methods that specialize on mirrored-sheet-mixin that assume that the sheet has a mirror, no? 2014-10-01T16:10:50Z nyef: Sure, but it doesn't have to be a DIRECT mirror. 2014-10-01T16:10:58Z beach: I see. 2014-10-01T16:11:02Z moore33: What's the point of an indirect mirror? 2014-10-01T16:11:11Z moore33: hi beach. 2014-10-01T16:11:16Z beach: Hey moore33. 2014-10-01T16:11:26Z moore33: I know I should know this, but... 2014-10-01T16:11:27Z nyef: If you ask for the mirror of a sheet without a direct mirror, it looks to the parent, and the parents parent, until it finds a mirror, or realizes that the sheet isn't grafted. 2014-10-01T16:12:05Z beach: nyef: And what happens to the sheet transformation then? 2014-10-01T16:12:06Z moore33: Well there you go. 2014-10-01T16:12:07Z nyef: moore33: It's for cases with "owner-draw" gadgets or windowing systems with only a single level of windows (such as classic MacOS) rather than a full tree. 2014-10-01T16:12:37Z moore33: nyef: I think I get it... an OpenGL implementation should work the same way. 2014-10-01T16:12:41Z nyef: beach: There's some way to get the effective transform and region in terms of the nearest mirrored ancestor. 2014-10-01T16:12:59Z nyef: Which you need when you get the medium anyway. 2014-10-01T16:13:17Z beach: nyef: OK, I'll look into that. Thanks! 2014-10-01T16:13:58Z nyef: moore33: Yeah, OpenGL should be a much more modern example. I'll try to remember that one, thanks. 2014-10-01T16:14:03Z ehu_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:14:12Z flip214 is now known as flip216 2014-10-01T16:14:46Z beach now doesn't see the point of MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN :( 2014-10-01T16:15:09Z johs_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:15:11Z eee-blt_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:15:13Z tkd__ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:15:27Z nyef: beach: You mean, "what's the point of being able to have a non-mirrorable sheet"? 2014-10-01T16:15:30Z killmaster_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:15:36Z beach: Yes. 2014-10-01T16:16:09Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:16:11Z nyef: Two possibilities come to mind. First is that there may not be one, the entire silica layer always seemed over-built to me. 2014-10-01T16:16:24Z nyef: Second is that a non-mirrored sheet could still have an event queue and whatnot. 2014-10-01T16:17:26Z nyef: There's also the possibility that there is no point to being able to create a non-mirrored sheet, but that factoring all of the mirroring stuff into a mixin helped to simplify the design in some way. 2014-10-01T16:17:30Z beach: But if sheets that inherit from MIRRORED-SHEET-MIXIN don't necessarily have a direct mirror, then it could be mixed in to every sheet, so it is no longer relevant. 2014-10-01T16:17:34Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:17:36Z mtd_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:17:42Z vert2 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:17:43Z eee-blt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:43Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:43Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:43Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z tkd_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z DTSCode quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z abeaumont_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z Odin- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z vert2_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z MightyJoe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z Anarch quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z smull_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:44Z normanrichards quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:45Z nonamae quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:45Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:45Z killmaster_ is now known as killmaster 2014-10-01T16:17:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:17:48Z Anarch_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:17:59Z smull joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:18:06Z kpreid quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:18:16Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:18:18Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:18:21Z kpreid_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:18:52Z DTSCode joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:18:58Z theos joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:19:07Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T16:19:25Z beach: nyef: Thanks again. It will certainly make the new backend easier to write. 2014-10-01T16:19:37Z abeaumont_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:19:42Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:19:53Z nonamae joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:20:01Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:20:07Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:20:50Z newcomer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:21:34Z beach: OK, so it's enough to have SHEET-DIRECT-MIRROR return NIL. 2014-10-01T16:21:55Z beach: ... which should be a simple matter of setting a slot to NIL. 2014-10-01T16:23:36Z clarkema quit (Quit: clarkema) 2014-10-01T16:23:46Z nyef: Well, IIRC, there's a separate mixin for sheets that can be directly mirrored... 2014-10-01T16:24:04Z nyef: Otherwise, yes, just leaving the direct mirror as NIL should work. 2014-10-01T16:24:28Z beach: I'll try it later. 2014-10-01T16:24:35Z przl joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:26:32Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-01T16:26:48Z beach: clim sheet-device-transformation 2014-10-01T16:26:52Z posterdati300 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:27:22Z beach: Hmm, I thought specbot knew about CLIM. 2014-10-01T16:27:29Z nyef: It did... 2014-10-01T16:27:49Z nyef: ppc eieio 2014-10-01T16:27:51Z nyef: Hrm. 2014-10-01T16:28:09Z nyef: clhs define-setf-expansion 2014-10-01T16:28:09Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for define-setf-expansion. 2014-10-01T16:28:15Z nyef: clhs define-setf-expander 2014-10-01T16:28:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm 2014-10-01T16:28:19Z nyef: Odd. 2014-10-01T16:28:20Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:28:27Z beach: Must have been removed. 2014-10-01T16:28:39Z nyef: specbot: Help? 2014-10-01T16:28:39Z specbot: To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database can be: clhs lp mop. 2014-10-01T16:28:47Z nyef: Ouch! Much prunage. 2014-10-01T16:29:57Z beach: I would have preferred leaving those in, and requiring an explicit "specbot:" instead. 2014-10-01T16:30:07Z beach: Oh, well. 2014-10-01T16:30:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-01T16:32:12Z moore33: What's "lp"? 2014-10-01T16:33:11Z Xach guesses launchpad 2014-10-01T16:33:16Z pjb: Probably it called up upon external servers to find out the info, and given the recent reshuffling of servers, it can't anymore. 2014-10-01T16:33:46Z posterdati300 quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-10-01T16:34:12Z moore33: Xach: Not LP/Lisp? :) 2014-10-01T16:34:17Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:34:39Z slyrus: long playing? 2014-10-01T16:37:20Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:37:42Z ehu_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:38:49Z dlowe: Lars Pensjo Lisp 2014-10-01T16:39:44Z camden joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:40:44Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:40:49Z beach vanishes in order to ingest dinner. 2014-10-01T16:42:51Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:44:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:46:15Z moore33 quit 2014-10-01T16:47:12Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T16:47:48Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:49:14Z clop: do any lisp compilers do basic deforestation like (map f (map g x)) --> (map (f o g) x) style stuff? 2014-10-01T16:49:39Z clop: fusion it's called sometimes, i guess 2014-10-01T16:50:35Z pjb: If you're asking for lisp in general, I think that the answer is yes. But if you're asking of Common Lisp, then AFAIK, none of the current compilers do that. 2014-10-01T16:50:58Z pjb: Now, if you implement your own map function (not CL:MAP), then you can write a compiler macro for it, to do this optimization. 2014-10-01T16:51:32Z tadni` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:51:37Z clop: interesting 2014-10-01T16:51:57Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T16:52:42Z newcomer joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:53:11Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:53:14Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:55:16Z sword`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T16:55:22Z Bike: if f and g have side effects that composition version would violate the left-to-right evaluation rule for map, so you couldn't do it in general 2014-10-01T16:55:23Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-10-01T16:55:29Z sword`` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:55:50Z ggole: It's particularly tricky in the f or g could be redefined to have side effects. 2014-10-01T16:56:06Z ggole: Not impossible, just a bit arcane. 2014-10-01T16:56:22Z Bike: well actually i guess it would be fine if f had side effects as long as g didn't 2014-10-01T16:57:09Z pjb: Now, f = nuke-the-planet, g = (lambda (x) (/ x 0)) 2014-10-01T16:57:19Z pjb: g has no side effect, f has. 2014-10-01T16:57:28Z pjb: or g has too? 2014-10-01T16:57:43Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-10-01T16:57:45Z pjb: Take g = allocate-some-big-object 2014-10-01T16:57:46Z Bike: i guess i'd count a control transfer 2014-10-01T16:58:00Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T16:58:01Z pjb: does g have any side effect? What if out-of-memory is signaled always? 2014-10-01T16:58:06Z Bike: anyway, point is there's a lot more to worry about than in haskell 2014-10-01T16:58:39Z pjb: I don't know. Could f or g be related to monads in haskells? 2014-10-01T16:58:43Z Bike: of course if you're defining your own map you could remove some order of evaluation rules 2014-10-01T16:58:45Z pjb: s/ls/l/ 2014-10-01T16:59:09Z ggole: Diverging is usually considered an effect 2014-10-01T16:59:21Z clop: we (in acl2 land) use a small subset of Lisp that doesn't have side effects, so I think we'd be okay there, but yeah, redefinition would make that pretty tricky 2014-10-01T17:00:31Z Bike: is redefinition a problem? (map 'f (map 'g x)) => (map (compose (fdefinition 'f) (fdefinition 'g)) x), yeah? 2014-10-01T17:01:01Z Bike: i mean, too bad if you wanted to optimize the composition, but other than that 2014-10-01T17:01:26Z pjb: (map 'f (map (lambda (x) (setf (symbol-function 'f) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))) '(1 2 3))) 2014-10-01T17:01:29Z ggole: If you do analysis to ensure that there are no problematic side effects, redefinition would invalidate that analysis. 2014-10-01T17:02:00Z Bike: ggole, pjb: I mean with clop's side-effect-free subset 2014-10-01T17:02:09Z ggole: Oh, dunno then. 2014-10-01T17:02:12Z ggole: Presumably not. 2014-10-01T17:03:00Z pjb: Compare: (mapcar 'f (mapcar (lambda (x) (setf (symbol-function 'f) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) x) '(1 2 3))) --> (4 5 6) 2014-10-01T17:03:00Z pjb: with: (mapcar (lambda (x) (f ((lambda (x) (setf (symbol-function 'f) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) x) x))) '(1 2 3)) --> (2 4 6) 2014-10-01T17:03:05Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-10-01T17:03:12Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T17:03:25Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T17:03:28Z Bike: yes, obviously that's a side effect 2014-10-01T17:03:54Z pjb: There are a lot of side effects. 2014-10-01T17:04:17Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:10:16Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T17:10:55Z Xach left #lisp 2014-10-01T17:13:54Z sz0 quit 2014-10-01T17:17:30Z Hache_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:23:12Z vinleod quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-10-01T17:23:36Z kuzy000 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:24:14Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:26:26Z gendl_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:29:49Z gendl_ quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T17:31:57Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T17:32:06Z MutSbeta joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:33:43Z devon joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:35:43Z faheem___ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-01T17:38:17Z drmeister: stassats: Ping - did Clasp build for you? 2014-10-01T17:38:46Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T17:39:17Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:41:25Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:42:59Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:47:42Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T17:48:05Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:49:47Z shka joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:49:51Z shka: hi all 2014-10-01T17:51:28Z xyjprc: Another question: if I want to compute the time difference (in seconds) of strings like "Thu Feb 20 21:50:02 +0000 2014" and "Thu Feb 20 22:04:10 +0000 2014", what can be a good way to do it in common lisp? Or broadly speaking, is there a quick reference for common tasks such as splitting strings, dealing with csv, manipulate date time, and so on? 2014-10-01T17:52:25Z dlowe: chronicity and local-time will do these. 2014-10-01T17:54:33Z xyjprc: Looks good, thanks! 2014-10-01T17:57:38Z Grue`: splitting strings: cl-ppcre, csv: cl-csv 2014-10-01T17:58:33Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T17:59:33Z camden: Has anyone ever worked with Lucid or Liquid CL? 2014-10-01T17:59:39Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T18:00:38Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:02:42Z shka: Grue`: i happend to need something like this as well 2014-10-01T18:02:54Z shka: but i wanted to use split-sequence 2014-10-01T18:03:17Z Grue`: well, everyone needs this, cl-ppcre at least 2014-10-01T18:03:31Z Grue`: split-sequence can only split by one characters 2014-10-01T18:03:41Z Grue`: *character; which is unfortunate 2014-10-01T18:04:05Z shka: really? 2014-10-01T18:04:30Z shka: ah right 2014-10-01T18:04:39Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:04:49Z shka: but actually i need to split by space :) 2014-10-01T18:05:06Z shka: Grue`: i will check cl-ppcre 2014-10-01T18:05:32Z Grue`: but what if there's several spaces? hence why you split by \s+ regex 2014-10-01T18:05:52Z shka: aaah 2014-10-01T18:06:00Z shka: ok, i know about cl-ppcre 2014-10-01T18:06:08Z shka: i was using it actually 2014-10-01T18:06:20Z shka: but name is not catchy 2014-10-01T18:08:49Z dlowe: or (:greedy-repetition 1 nil :whitespace-char-class) if you don't want to use the perl syntax 2014-10-01T18:10:06Z shka: i just need split into individual words 2014-10-01T18:11:53Z DrCode quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T18:12:34Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:13:12Z shka: cl-ppcre needs a better name 2014-10-01T18:13:35Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:13:39Z shka: mega-string-exploder seems nice 2014-10-01T18:13:43Z shka: ;-) 2014-10-01T18:15:31Z Grue`: I also needed to split something into individual words and now I have written about 2k lines of code to solve this specific problem ;) 2014-10-01T18:15:39Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:16:29Z shka: Grue`: uhm? 2014-10-01T18:16:30Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:16:53Z shka: why you can't assume that words are separated by the space? 2014-10-01T18:16:58Z Grue`: for example "Shinmera QUIT Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです" 2014-10-01T18:17:00Z shka: and be done with it? 2014-10-01T18:17:24Z shka: ok 2014-10-01T18:17:44Z shka: i don't even know how many words are in there 2014-10-01T18:17:53Z shka: *sigh* 2014-10-01T18:17:55Z shka: asians 2014-10-01T18:17:56Z Grue`: ("しつれい" "しなければ" "ならない" "ん" "です") 2014-10-01T18:18:13Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:18:15Z Grue`: i think that's close to correct at least 2014-10-01T18:18:28Z camden quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:18:44Z shka: kinda like in ancient Greek 2014-10-01T18:18:50Z shka: no spaces ;) 2014-10-01T18:19:01Z Grue`: spaces are a great invention 2014-10-01T18:20:17Z Oberon4278: How is that even an invention? 2014-10-01T18:20:50Z CatMtKing joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:21:00Z pjb: Oberon4278:BEFORETHEINVENTIONOFSPACESPEOPLEWROTELIKETHIS.ATTHATTIMETHEYDIDN'THAVEINVENTEDLOWERCASEEITHER. 2014-10-01T18:21:30Z Oberon4278: It seems like some scribe at some point very very early on in the writing process must have said "But wait, how do you know where one word ends and the next one begins?" and the teacher should have said "Oh that's a good point, we should just leave a little bit of blank clay tablet there." 2014-10-01T18:21:42Z stassats: drmeister: no 2014-10-01T18:21:56Z pjb: Oberon4278: some languages, like Hebrew, even had different forms for some final letters, to better distinguish the end of a word from the beginning of the next for this reason, lack of whitespace. 2014-10-01T18:21:56Z pjb: 2014-10-01T18:22:27Z ggole: It was probably easier to distinguish words before the invention of alphabets. 2014-10-01T18:22:48Z pjb: Oberon4278: this was an important feature of writing systems, since at that time, you graved on stone, or wrote on papyrus or wax tablets, both being rare and expensive. 2014-10-01T18:23:23Z pjb: Oberon4278: not really, they just were used to it. The font could help too. 2014-10-01T18:23:43Z pjb: (or should we say, the script). 2014-10-01T18:23:45Z newcomer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:24:51Z Oberon joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:25:35Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:25:48Z wedgeV joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:26:30Z Oberon4278 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:27:33Z impulse quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:28:11Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T18:29:54Z CatMtKing quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-01T18:31:08Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:32:47Z Oberon: pjb: Ah, well that's kind of interesting. 2014-10-01T18:32:56Z madrik quit (Quit: sleep) 2014-10-01T18:33:15Z Oberon: Do those forms still exist in Hebrew? 2014-10-01T18:33:44Z pjb: Oberon: watching some old manuscript, it looks like capitalization of the first letter of the first word of a sentence came almost word spacing (or along with very discrete word spacing). 2014-10-01T18:33:53Z pjb: Oberon: yes, definitely. 2014-10-01T18:34:43Z Oberon: How are they used now? In the same way, or are they sort of like decorative ascenders and descenders in English? 2014-10-01T18:34:59Z pjb: http://symbolcodes.tlt.psu.edu/bylanguage/hebrewchart.html final pe, final tsadi, final nun, final mem and final kaf. 2014-10-01T18:35:09Z stassats: is this a channel about common lisp? 2014-10-01T18:35:24Z Shinmera: It is a mystery. 2014-10-01T18:35:33Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T18:35:50Z zacts is now known as helibovine 2014-10-01T18:36:05Z faheem___ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:36:21Z pjb: But then, spaces are used in modern hebrew. Both spaces and final letters. 2014-10-01T18:36:39Z Oberon: So is not using the final letter an error akin to failing to capitalize correctly in English? 2014-10-01T18:36:45Z pjb: Yes. 2014-10-01T18:36:54Z Oberon: cool 2014-10-01T18:37:04Z Oberon: stassats: It is, we're off topic currently, I apologize. 2014-10-01T18:37:18Z pjb: Next time, try #lispcafe ;-) 2014-10-01T18:40:17Z Oberon is now known as Oberon4278 2014-10-01T18:40:51Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:42:59Z Borbus joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:43:53Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:45:04Z stassats quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-01T18:46:00Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:46:34Z sdemarre joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:47:47Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:51:01Z stacksmith joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:52:28Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:53:00Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:53:16Z beach left #lisp 2014-10-01T18:53:53Z axion: sigh, i'm forced to work on a web interface in my prefered language to an existing mysql database....no pomo possible :( which mysql interface lib should i check out? 2014-10-01T18:54:32Z dlowe: cl-sql I imagine 2014-10-01T18:54:55Z work_op_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:54:56Z gluegadget quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:54:56Z aksatac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:55:25Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:55:51Z work_op_: does anybody know what performance on CL21 is like? I use SBCL, which it runs on top of, but is it just a syntactic layer on top of SBCL or is its own entire vm also? 2014-10-01T18:55:52Z gregburd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:55:52Z Amaan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:55:57Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:55:57Z madmalik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:56:01Z axion: heh, i don't even see cl-sql on cliki 2014-10-01T18:56:19Z axion: ah CLSQL 2014-10-01T18:56:20Z gz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:56:35Z work_op_: axion http://clsql.b9.com/documentation.html 2014-10-01T18:56:42Z work_op_: docs for ya 2014-10-01T18:56:53Z drdanmaku quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:57:31Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T18:57:38Z gregburd joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:57:46Z Grue`: work_op_: it's a library, should be comparable to regular cl 2014-10-01T18:57:46Z gz_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:57:47Z Amaan joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:57:47Z aksatac joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:57:47Z gluegadget joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:57:51Z Neet joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:57:58Z madmalik joined #lisp 2014-10-01T18:58:38Z work_op_: Grue`: ok, thanks im excited to dive in after school and work today! ive been looking for something like that 2014-10-01T18:58:55Z drdanmaku joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:00:18Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T19:00:25Z Grue`: hmm, wonder what would be a fast way to check if a string ends with one of ~500 suffixes? 2014-10-01T19:00:54Z Grue`: a trie maybe 2014-10-01T19:01:05Z dlowe: use cl-ppcre to make a state machine for you 2014-10-01T19:02:06Z work_op_: a trie sounds right 2014-10-01T19:02:09Z dlowe: Use `(:sequence (:alternation ,@suffixes) :end-anchor) 2014-10-01T19:02:22Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:03:57Z work_op_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-01T19:04:52Z newcomer joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:05:40Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:06:40Z Grue`: well, cl-ppcre doc says "Try to avoid alternations if possible or at least factor them out as in the example above." so I doubt this is optimized 2014-10-01T19:07:20Z drmeister: stassats: Oh - a dagger in my heart. What happened? 2014-10-01T19:11:55Z eudoxia: my mother is a high school teacher, and one of her students asked her to recommend a programming book 2014-10-01T19:12:06Z eudoxia: and i suggested Touretsky's Common Lisp book 2014-10-01T19:12:09Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:12:14Z eudoxia: from what she said we have another convert 2014-10-01T19:12:35Z bjorkintosh: 'convert'? 2014-10-01T19:12:41Z Shinmera: Infecting the youth now, are we 2014-10-01T19:12:44Z bjorkintosh: where am i? 2014-10-01T19:12:46Z bjorkintosh: is this a cult? 2014-10-01T19:13:04Z Bike: unfortunately. 2014-10-01T19:13:12Z Shinmera: bjorkintosh: Did you accidentally take off your tinfoil hat? 2014-10-01T19:13:34Z bjorkintosh: What are these emerald coloured glasses for again? 2014-10-01T19:14:01Z eudoxia: mine is nailed to my scalp so i won't accidentally drop it and let the feds force me to drink fluoride water 2014-10-01T19:14:16Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:15:01Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:15:02Z nonamae quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:15:03Z Longlius quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:17:52Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:18:05Z slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 2014-10-01T19:18:22Z bjorkintosh: who DID this to you?! 2014-10-01T19:19:45Z Oberon4278: (In a voice of multitudes) WE did this to OURSELVES. Join US bjorkintosh! It is bliss! 2014-10-01T19:21:33Z bjorkintosh: Oberon4278? I'm not Wirthy. 2014-10-01T19:21:37Z eudoxia: [distant whirring of neurosurgery drills] 2014-10-01T19:21:48Z Grue`: actually after some thinking, if I put all suffixes into a hash table and then check every (subseq str i (length str)) against the hash, that would be pretty efficient 2014-10-01T19:22:05Z Grue`: tries are too much trouble for this 2014-10-01T19:23:02Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:23:15Z Longlius quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T19:23:32Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:25:55Z White_Flame: a trie wouldn't cons, like subseq does 2014-10-01T19:26:19Z White_Flame: but yes, hashing would be fast if you're not doing billions per second 2014-10-01T19:28:07Z jasom: Grue`: implementing a trie with a hash-table or alist is pretty easy to do and really fast 2014-10-01T19:28:29Z jasom: obviously a vector will be faster if you have any reasonable density though 2014-10-01T19:29:44Z jasom: but if they are all the same length a hash table is way easier 2014-10-01T19:30:40Z White_Flame: you might be able to play games with taking the minimum unique suffix length to reduce search space, to come up with a shorter list of suffix lengths to further check 2014-10-01T19:33:23Z denisrum quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:37:27Z blakbunnie27 quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!) 2014-10-01T19:38:47Z simulacrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T19:39:31Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T19:43:29Z simulacrum joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:43:45Z stacksmith quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:46:38Z shka quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2014-10-01T19:47:42Z kbtr_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:47:57Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:48:40Z kbtr joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:49:16Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-01T19:53:41Z duggiefr_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:54:01Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T19:54:23Z simulacrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T19:55:28Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:56:06Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-01T19:56:21Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:57:07Z nonamae joined #lisp 2014-10-01T19:57:54Z drmeister: Did I ever tell you the story of when Dave Touretzky and I used to hang around on Netnews and give grief to Scientologists? No? You can google it - or it's a story for some other time. 2014-10-01T19:58:37Z drmeister shakes his head at his misspent youth. 2014-10-01T19:58:46Z nyef: The phrase "happy as a clam" comes to mind for some reason. 2014-10-01T20:00:08Z newcomer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:00:38Z newcomer joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:00:51Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:00:58Z White_Flame blames his bugs on engrams sticking to his computer 2014-10-01T20:01:15Z Adlai joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:02:01Z jasom: Didn't Touretzky get sued by the church of scientology? 2014-10-01T20:04:09Z eudoxia: i remember an article along those lines 2014-10-01T20:04:11Z simulacrum joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:04:37Z jasom: drmeister: oh, you're this Christian Scafmeister? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/E-Meter/biophysics.html 2014-10-01T20:05:12Z newcomer quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:05:55Z bjorkintosh: On his business card, it says "Christian, Troll". 2014-10-01T20:05:57Z bjorkintosh: no pun. 2014-10-01T20:06:01Z bjorkintosh: or it should say that ^ 2014-10-01T20:09:53Z drmeister: Yes Touretzky got sued - I managed to avoid legal harassment. Graduate students have some measure of immunity to evil, multi-tenticled, bogus religions. 2014-10-01T20:10:27Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:13:20Z drmeister: At the time I thought they were amusing, stupid and evil - a potent lure to a wise-ass grad. student. In retrospect they were a mole on the face of the problems that challenge humanity. I've turned my sights on bigger problems. 2014-10-01T20:15:02Z Grue` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T20:15:12Z sdemarre quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:16:03Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:23:56Z simulacrum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T20:25:34Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:30:11Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-01T20:31:19Z dim: I think I'm going to use http://common-lisp.net/project/metabang-bind/user-guide.html now, I feel like I've done enough let/destructuring-bind/m-v-b manually 2014-10-01T20:31:19Z minion: dim, memo from Shinmera: So far I can only conclude that cl-sqlite works on windows, but you most likely need to bundle the sqlite.dll file (which you can get from the website) with your application. 2014-10-01T20:31:27Z dim: any advice around that kind of libs? 2014-10-01T20:31:39Z dim: Shinmera: thanks! 2014-10-01T20:32:12Z dim: Shinmera: well if you want to contribute a pgloader binary distribution for windows, I'd be very glad to host it ;-) 2014-10-01T20:32:20Z Shinmera: dim: I'm also really bothered by the fact that I can't find the sqlite-pcre extension as a dll anywhere, so I'll have to figure out if I can build it myself. :/ 2014-10-01T20:32:52Z dim: sqlite-pcre? mmm I don't think I need it in pgloader... 2014-10-01T20:33:00Z Shinmera: dim: I'd rather avoid pain if possible, so I'll have to turn you down on that offer. 2014-10-01T20:33:19Z dim: hehe, understood, no pb at all 2014-10-01T20:33:31Z dim: it looked to good to be true, I somehow had to ask ;-) 2014-10-01T20:34:04Z Shinmera: I tried running my app in a VM this morning and no matter what it just wouldn't pick up the bloody dlls. 2014-10-01T20:34:18Z Shinmera: I gave up after half an hour. 2014-10-01T20:34:27Z eudoxia: i tried to get a friend to run clack on windows 2014-10-01T20:34:37Z eudoxia: no matter what he did he couldn't get the ssl dll to load 2014-10-01T20:34:51Z eudoxia: (yes i know you can turn off hunchentoot's ssl) 2014-10-01T20:35:02Z Shinmera: It did work on my colleague's machine though, so I have no idea why or what or how or who 2014-10-01T20:36:16Z dim: I've read before that if the dll is found in the same directory as the .exe it just works, dunno if that's true tho 2014-10-01T20:36:56Z Shinmera: It's not exed, but I took care to put the directory they're in onto cffi:*foreign-library-directories*, but still it wouldn't work on my VM for unknown reasons 2014-10-01T20:37:48Z miner joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:37:56Z miner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T20:38:05Z radioninja joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:38:09Z dim: unknown reasons sounds a lot like windows yes 2014-10-01T20:39:44Z hardenedapple joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:40:24Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:41:30Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T20:43:53Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:45:44Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-10-01T20:48:47Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:49:23Z axion: anyone familiar with clsql with mysql? trying to use (select) on a defined view for a table results in a query whose table is sent in all caps, when mysql is case-sensitive. 2014-10-01T20:49:58Z dlowe: axion: use || to denote case-sensitive symbols 2014-10-01T20:50:36Z Grue`: huh, mysql is case-sensitive? I never noticed 2014-10-01T20:50:43Z eudoxia: i never had any problems with MySQL on http://eudoxia0.github.io/crane/ 2014-10-01T20:51:08Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:51:09Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2014-10-01T20:51:09Z araujo joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:51:15Z eudoxia: is CLSQL still maintained? 2014-10-01T20:51:35Z axion: dlowe: that doesnt work. the view definition is a macro 2014-10-01T20:51:55Z Grue`: how does that change things? 2014-10-01T20:51:55Z axion: i hasve no clue. it was recommended here. i'm so used to pomo but this project requires mysql 2014-10-01T20:52:27Z Adlai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:52:41Z Grue`: i used clsql with mysql a few years ago 2014-10-01T20:53:00Z Grue`: back then i didn't know about postgres 2014-10-01T20:53:15Z Grue`: and i don't remember any case-sensitivity errors 2014-10-01T20:53:23Z blakbunnie27 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T20:53:25Z axion: well, calling (def-view-class |table| ..) and then trying to use (select) says no table defined. 2014-10-01T20:53:46Z Grue`: you'd have to use |table| everywhere in your code 2014-10-01T20:53:50Z axion: i did :) 2014-10-01T20:55:15Z Grue`: I think there's an option in def-view that allows to attach that class to a different table than the one named by its symbol 2014-10-01T20:55:50Z hardenedapple quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2014-10-01T20:56:17Z axion: this early on in development, i already want to sell the client on converting to postgres 2014-10-01T20:57:27Z dim: axion: I use the pure-CL qmynd driver 2014-10-01T20:57:56Z dim: I also have a eye on http://www.obrezan.com/lisp/mysql/ that I will someday make portable and test seriously 2014-10-01T20:58:02Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T20:58:07Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T20:59:25Z c107 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:02:05Z ltbarcly quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:06:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-10-01T21:06:37Z gluegadget quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:08:11Z gluegadget joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:08:15Z helibovine is now known as zacts 2014-10-01T21:10:56Z nyef: ... It looks like ironclad doesn't allow passing an HMAC to DIGEST-SEQUENCE. Is there an equivalent to DIGEST-SEQUENCE for HMACs, or do I need to do things the long way around? 2014-10-01T21:15:42Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-10-01T21:16:36Z drewc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T21:19:05Z marchdown joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:19:41Z drewc joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:19:52Z radioninja quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:20:06Z eudoxia: smtp is really slow for some reason 2014-10-01T21:20:19Z eudoxia: i thought there was something wrong with cl-smtp because it took ten secs to send an email 2014-10-01T21:20:26Z eudoxia: tried python's smtplib, nine seconds 2014-10-01T21:20:40Z eudoxia: talk about the network being the bottleneck! 2014-10-01T21:21:09Z ehu: smtp isn't slow or fast by itself. it may be slow or fast the way it's implemented or on the server it's running on. 2014-10-01T21:21:33Z ehu: it could also be that the server is stalling your mail to be slow explicitly to discourage spammers. 2014-10-01T21:23:11Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:24:52Z kuzy000 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:25:47Z frito joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:26:01Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:27:59Z marchdown quit (Quit: marchdown) 2014-10-01T21:32:30Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:34:22Z frito quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T21:36:41Z pjb: - 2014-10-01T21:37:19Z duggiefr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T21:37:45Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:39:23Z nyef: eudoxia: If you're using cl-smtp, you might find that you need a "dot-stuffer". I have no idea if it's been patched or not (or if there was a dot-stuffer in there that I simply didn't notice when I ran into the issue) since last time I used it. 2014-10-01T21:39:38Z MutSbeta quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-01T21:39:48Z nyef: ... It turns out that the "long way around" for working with an HMAC isn't that long at all, since the update function returns the HMAC. 2014-10-01T21:40:16Z eudoxia: nyef: a what now? 2014-10-01T21:40:55Z nyef: eudoxia: A "dot-stuffer". It's for save vs. people putting a single period on a line within their email. 2014-10-01T21:41:44Z nyef: And you now have both search terms and a capsule explanation, which should be enough to do further research yourself. d-: 2014-10-01T21:42:00Z eudoxia: nyef: if people put a line with just a period, something crashes? 2014-10-01T21:42:18Z eudoxia googles 2014-10-01T21:42:22Z duggiefresh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:42:33Z eudoxia finds an IRC log of nyef talking about this 2014-10-01T21:42:59Z eudoxia: huh 2014-10-01T21:43:47Z nyef: Welcome to the hell which is SMTP. Next stop, putting #\> in front of any line in the message body that looks like it could be a "From" header. This one has caused actual printing errors in hardcopy books. 2014-10-01T21:44:32Z eudoxia: ... i have a feeling IMAP will be an even worse experience 2014-10-01T21:44:35Z nyef: (To be fair, this is typically handled by the MTA due to compatibility or outright use of the "mbox" format.) 2014-10-01T21:44:40Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:44:44Z eudoxia: at least cl-smtp is relatively straightforward 2014-10-01T21:44:53Z eudoxia: the IMAP examples I've seen look like they could give you visions of Yuggoth 2014-10-01T21:47:56Z davazp joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:48:49Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:49:17Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:50:06Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:50:29Z aksatac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T21:50:54Z oleo is now known as Guest4240 2014-10-01T21:52:04Z aksatac joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:52:39Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T21:52:41Z Shinmera quit (Quit: しつれいしなければならないんです。) 2014-10-01T21:53:19Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-10-01T21:54:37Z Guest4240 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:01:11Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:04:45Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:13:02Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-01T22:13:04Z Grue` joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:17:10Z axion: what is the best way to convert a list of single-element lists of strings to a list of strings? ex: (("1") ("2") ("3")) => ("1" "2" "3") 2014-10-01T22:19:15Z Krystof: (mapcar #'first list-of-lists) 2014-10-01T22:19:59Z marchdown joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:20:09Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-01T22:22:08Z axion: thanks. what if the list is wrapped in 3 levels of un-needed lists? is there something better than (mapcar #'car (caaar list-of-lists)) ? 2014-10-01T22:22:44Z fridim__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:23:37Z drewc: axion: (defun atomize (sexp) (if (consp sexp) (atomize (car sexp)) sexp)) ? 2014-10-01T22:24:33Z drewc: errr 2014-10-01T22:24:43Z oGMo: axion: alexandria:flatten 2014-10-01T22:24:50Z axion: oh nice. 2014-10-01T22:24:54Z axion: thank you 2014-10-01T22:24:55Z drewc forgot to atomize the CDR 2014-10-01T22:27:41Z ggole quit 2014-10-01T22:29:13Z innertracks quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:29:29Z tankrim joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:29:30Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:30:12Z nonamae quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:36:13Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T22:36:51Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T22:39:57Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:41:11Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:43:23Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:44:20Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:45:25Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-10-01T22:45:32Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:46:52Z _xyjprc_ joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:48:10Z meiji11 joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:49:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:49:52Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-01T22:50:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:51:34Z work_op quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-10-01T22:54:13Z Poenikatu joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:55:18Z Poenikatu: I am trying to cross-compile the CMU CL system using the x86 compiler. Has anyone succeeded in using cross-x86-amd64.lisp? 2014-10-01T22:55:47Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:56:14Z sheilong quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T22:56:22Z mrSpec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T22:57:01Z sheilong joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:57:33Z theseb: curious how CLispers feel about Clojure?...Are most thinking ...1. "Yay someone is trying to innovate!"...or 2. "Oh no..they aren't doing as they should" ?? 2014-10-01T22:57:34Z marchdown quit (Quit: marchdown) 2014-10-01T22:57:53Z codeburg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T22:58:12Z theseb: fwiw..clojure uses brackets which seems odd since lisp seems to always only use parens for syntax 2014-10-01T22:58:22Z codeburg joined #lisp 2014-10-01T22:58:22Z nyef: My thoughts on clojure? "Meh, whatever." 2014-10-01T22:59:14Z theseb: nyef: using Java gives it lots of libraries for free 2014-10-01T22:59:18Z drewc: My thoughts agree with nyef's. 2014-10-01T22:59:23Z oGMo: Poenikatu: i haven't seen anyone using cmucl in awhile here 2014-10-01T22:59:28Z nyef: theseb: Using Java has the downside of using Java. 2014-10-01T22:59:50Z drewc: My opinion agrees with nyef's 2014-10-01T23:00:10Z oGMo: yes .. what nyef said in both cases 2014-10-01T23:00:10Z vaporatorius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T23:00:25Z Poenikatu: oGMo: Ok. I gather that sbcl is a fork of CMU CL. How good is its compiler? 2014-10-01T23:00:29Z White_Flame: theseb: it seems that clojure uses arrays vs lists for many of the syntactic elements 2014-10-01T23:00:37Z Hache_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:00:48Z nyef: And if I AM going to be using the JVM, why not use a firearm-equipped ursine? 2014-10-01T23:00:53Z White_Flame: Poenikatu: SBCL is generally the fastest lisp for general workloads in most people's experience 2014-10-01T23:01:01Z cneira joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:01:04Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:01:07Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:01:08Z Poenikatu: White_Flame: What about the FFI? 2014-10-01T23:01:31Z drewc: I am just a clone of nyef it seems. 2014-10-01T23:01:34Z White_Flame: Poenikatu: Haven't used it much, but I've helped others with it. It's a FFI. What about it? 2014-10-01T23:01:37Z oGMo: Poenikatu: ffi is fine.. i'd recommend having both SBCL and CCL, and if you have issues switch 2014-10-01T23:01:40Z theseb: ok thanks all 2014-10-01T23:01:43Z theseb quit (Quit: Page closed) 2014-10-01T23:02:19Z oGMo: CCL has a faster compiler, SBCL produces faster code, but until you actually have an issue with speed i'd not worry about it 2014-10-01T23:02:41Z Poenikatu: oGMo: CCL I have, but its FFI does not include #define's in C header files. What can be done about that? 2014-10-01T23:03:11Z oGMo: Poenikatu: i'd say use autowrap, but i'm biased :P 2014-10-01T23:03:25Z Poenikatu: oGMo: What is autowrap? 2014-10-01T23:03:35Z eudoxia: seconding cl-autowrap 2014-10-01T23:03:36Z oGMo: Poenikatu: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap 2014-10-01T23:04:12Z oGMo: that will not pull #define _code_, only constants, but if you want code macros you're SOL on anything but C/C++ 2014-10-01T23:05:30Z jasom: oGMo: wow 2014-10-01T23:05:50Z oGMo: jasom: ? 2014-10-01T23:05:59Z jasom: cl-autowrap looks nice 2014-10-01T23:07:17Z oGMo: ah, well, thanks .. if you try it and have any issues, file them :P 2014-10-01T23:07:19Z jasom: oh CCL also generates smaller images than sbcl 2014-10-01T23:07:43Z oGMo: CCL has some nice debugging stuff and better OSX presence as well 2014-10-01T23:08:14Z oGMo: although, CCL's backtraces i found to be less useful than SBCL's 2014-10-01T23:08:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-10-01T23:09:26Z jasom: and ccl is always multithreaded, which inhibits certain uses of fork() 2014-10-01T23:09:47Z jasom: thought I think someone maintainse a patchset to remove the repl thread 2014-10-01T23:10:13Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:10:18Z Poenikatu: oGMo: SOL? 2014-10-01T23:11:03Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:11:19Z oGMo: Poenikatu: out of luck :p 2014-10-01T23:11:32Z McMAGIC--Copy joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:12:38Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:12:54Z axion: alexandria:flatten would be exactly what i need if it didn't remove nil 2014-10-01T23:12:57Z Poenikatu: oGMo: Thanks. Must away to bed now. Thanks again 2014-10-01T23:13:02Z Poenikatu left #lisp 2014-10-01T23:13:10Z White_Flame: what's up with SLIME that it won't close the sldb panels it opens up, slicing my display to shreds? Does this happen for anybody else? 2014-10-01T23:14:53Z White_Flame: I hit 'q' when an error panel shows up, and it blows away the sldb buffer, but leaves that new panel in place with arbitrary other buffer contents 2014-10-01T23:15:44Z jasom: oGMo: how do I tell autowrap where c2ffi is? 2014-10-01T23:16:04Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:16:09Z Bicyclidine quit (Client Quit) 2014-10-01T23:16:26Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:16:49Z wedgeV quit (Quit: wedgeV) 2014-10-01T23:17:57Z oGMo: jasom: err.. you can set *c2ffi-program* but i'm not sure if it's exported .. definitely not documented ;/ 2014-10-01T23:18:03Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:21:15Z madmalik quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-01T23:21:45Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:21:58Z axion: drewc: what would the change be for what you forgot? 2014-10-01T23:22:44Z oGMo: jasom: there, pushed an update with that exported and a mention of it in the readme 2014-10-01T23:28:56Z zeitue joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:30:21Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-10-01T23:31:24Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:33:17Z schjetne joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:33:22Z freaksken quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:34:50Z Oberon4278 left #lisp 2014-10-01T23:34:55Z |xk05| joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:35:57Z |xk05|: is .clif a common lisp file extension? or is this a one off? 2014-10-01T23:35:58Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-10-01T23:36:18Z Bicyclidine: never seen it before. 2014-10-01T23:37:10Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:37:21Z |xk05|: found it here. i think the author is simply writing this like a DSL. https://ontohub.org/repositories/cl-structural-ontology 2014-10-01T23:37:39Z |xk05|: axioms for lisp 2014-10-01T23:38:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-10-01T23:38:46Z Bicyclidine: this doesn't look like CL, syntax like "..." is there and i don't see any reader macros. 2014-10-01T23:39:14Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2014-10-01T23:42:05Z |xk05|: looks like a rough sketch. similar to something i've done in elisp. he might be working from an actual grammar, but obviously there is no runnable code there, which prompted my curiosity about the filename extension. 2014-10-01T23:43:23Z eudoxia quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-10-01T23:43:30Z White_Flame: |xk05|: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_logic 2014-10-01T23:43:42Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:44:16Z |xk05|: aha. 2014-10-01T23:44:46Z |xk05|: .clif common logic interchange format 2014-10-01T23:46:48Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-10-01T23:47:12Z Bicyclidine: there you go 2014-10-01T23:48:04Z nyef: Sounds like something to fall off. 2014-10-01T23:48:55Z White_Flame: or notes, or an energy bar, or... 2014-10-01T23:48:56Z nyef: minion: What does clif stand for? 2014-10-01T23:48:56Z minion: Carucated Lepocyte Inestimability Flump 2014-10-01T23:49:07Z mac_ified joined #lisp 2014-10-01T23:49:29Z nyef notes that minion has the most INTERESTING vocabulary. 2014-10-01T23:49:53Z White_Flame: but it doesn't know "real" acronyms that would be useful here 2014-10-01T23:49:58Z White_Flame: minion: What does CLOS stand for? 2014-10-01T23:49:59Z minion: Chirography Latentize Obscurity Semisaprophytic 2014-10-01T23:50:07Z jasom: minion: what does TLA stand for? 2014-10-01T23:50:07Z minion: Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 34 seconds is too many. 2014-10-01T23:51:01Z White_Flame: the 'stand for' should probably reference 'tell foo about' if it's a known term 2014-10-01T23:51:31Z nyef: Or occasionally mention a controversial political issue. 2014-10-01T23:56:43Z ltbarcly quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-10-01T23:58:37Z TDog joined #lisp