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2014-09-21T00:18:21Z dlowe: Xach: :) It was just an idea I had banging around.
2014-09-21T00:18:54Z inklesspen ponders a docker image that starts up sbcl with quicklisp loaded and a permanent swank handler running.
2014-09-21T00:19:35Z Xach: inklesspen: sounds good to me.
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2014-09-21T00:21:04Z inklesspen: i'm not yet sure how you'd do proper development with that setup though.
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2014-09-21T00:22:29Z inklesspen: right now i have my app-under-development in the quicklisp local-projects. so i start emacs, start slime, ql:quickload my app, and then start editing and C-c C-k on my source.
2014-09-21T00:22:37Z inklesspen: this is possibly the wrong way to set things up
2014-09-21T00:23:25Z Xach: that's what i often do
2014-09-21T00:24:07Z zRecursive: How do you make slime know the QL package ?
2014-09-21T00:24:37Z inklesspen: Xach: seems like it won't work well with a remote swank, though
2014-09-21T00:24:50Z inklesspen: zRecursive: in my specific example, or in general?
2014-09-21T00:25:29Z zRecursive: inklesspen: i guess you still need to use ~/.*rc for your CL impl ?
2014-09-21T00:26:10Z inklesspen: the only thing in my .sbclrc is what ql:add-to-init-file put there.
2014-09-21T00:26:24Z Xach: inklesspen: where your project is local but the lisp is remote?
2014-09-21T00:26:28Z zRecursive: ok
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2014-09-21T00:26:31Z inklesspen: Xach: correct
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2014-09-21T00:28:03Z inklesspen: i could load each lisp file in order and C-c C-k it, but that seems so inefficient there must be a saner way.
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2014-09-21T00:29:40Z Xach: I don't know much about docker. Would it be unnatural to edit the files on the remote via tramp?
2014-09-21T00:32:14Z zRecursive: clhs macroexpand-1
2014-09-21T00:32:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2014-09-21T00:32:57Z inklesspen: basically docker is designed for making an isolated software appliance that does a single thing. by default its storage is ephemeral, though you can attach persistant volumes
2014-09-21T00:35:30Z inklesspen: my idea was you could have a docker image that has the latest sbcl and quicklisp and it provides the slime elisp files for you to load into your local emacs. so you need only docker, emacs, and the vcs tool of your choice.
2014-09-21T00:36:16Z inklesspen currently develops on a mac and plans to deploy on a linux server, and the availability of sbcl is not always synchronized across both platforms. (though this is not really a huge problem.)
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2014-09-21T00:58:38Z p_l: inklesspen: you'd still need to use vbox/vmware etc. on mac...
2014-09-21T00:58:57Z inklesspen: p_l: eh, the docker package installs vbox for you
2014-09-21T00:59:23Z p_l would probably keep to simply ensuring exact builds of SBCL etc. using some configuration management tool
2014-09-21T01:00:39Z inklesspen: well, the idea would be that once your app is ready to be deployed, you take the sbcl image you use for development and make a new image based on that that loads your app.
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2014-09-21T03:33:45Z wooden: i'm defining a system "foo" in an .asd file.  it has a component source file called "foo.lisp" in it.  i am getting an error when evaluating (require :foo) that says "Could not REQUIRE FOO: circularity detected."  is there a way around this, other than renaming foo.lisp to something different than the package?
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2014-09-21T03:35:26Z kristof: where is that getting evaluated?
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2014-09-21T03:37:19Z wooden: kristof: i run that in the repl, to try to load the package.
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2014-09-21T03:45:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2014-09-21T03:58:03Z vanila: hi beach :)
2014-09-21T03:59:50Z Fade: beach!
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2014-09-21T04:01:08Z pjb: minion memo for cheryllium: FORTRAN and LISP are olders programming languages, THAT HAVE DESCENDENTS STILL IN USE!
2014-09-21T04:01:21Z pjb: minion: memo for cheryllium: FORTRAN and LISP are olders programming languages, THAT HAVE DESCENDENTS STILL IN USE!
2014-09-21T04:01:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell cheryllium when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-09-21T04:01:50Z pjb: minion: memo for cheryllium:  for example, there's no autocoder successor still in use.
2014-09-21T04:01:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell cheryllium when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-09-21T04:09:01Z beach: I keep trying to come up with programming tasks that one could do by investing 10 minutes a day.  But when I do come up with such a task, it is so boring to do it, that I just drop it.
2014-09-21T04:09:20Z beach: Like for instance writing one type declaration per day, or one docstring per day.
2014-09-21T04:09:22Z pjb: Time to write a blog for newbies.
2014-09-21T04:09:33Z vanila: beach: What about a more interesting project that takes a few weeks but can be divided into 10 min parts?
2014-09-21T04:09:33Z beach: pjb: Good idea.
2014-09-21T04:10:06Z beach: vanila: I don't know how to do that.  When it is not boring, it requires context, and the context takes a long time to re-acquire.
2014-09-21T04:10:52Z beach: pjb: The problem is: they won't read it.
2014-09-21T04:12:45Z pjb: Anyways, blog is the wrong too here. You want a ticket tracking application, so that newbies can work on the tasks, and mark them done.
2014-09-21T04:12:50Z pjb: s/too /tool /
2014-09-21T04:13:12Z beach: pjb: Sounds like you are interested in starting such a thing.
2014-09-21T04:16:15Z pjb: I've not choosen a bug tracker yet.
2014-09-21T04:16:37Z drmeister_: Hi beach:  I'm upgrading to LLVM3.5  - llvm developers went crazy with std::unique_ptr - it's causing me a lot of headaches.
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2014-09-21T04:19:53Z drmeister_ is not really going anywhere with that opening sentence - just wandering mentally while waiting for something to compile.
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2014-09-21T04:23:17Z beach: drmeister_: I'll make a mental note of it. :)
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2014-09-21T04:25:38Z drmeister_: beach: How difficult do you think it will be to integrate Cleavir into Clasp?  There's the environment stuff on one end and the MIR->LLVM-IR on the other.
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2014-09-21T04:27:06Z ryankarason: i did a quick scrollback and i haven't seen any mention of >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/msg04823.html
2014-09-21T04:27:10Z ryankarason: ^^thoughts ?
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2014-09-21T04:32:16Z beach: drmeister_: The environment adaptation should be fairly simple.  I don't really know the LLVM so I don't know how hard it would be to convert Cleavir MIR to it.
2014-09-21T04:33:03Z drmeister_: Could I sketch out LLVM-IR for you and maybe we could figure it out.   It would get my subconscious working on the problem.
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2014-09-21T04:34:00Z drmeister_: Or not, if you don't have the time.
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2014-09-21T04:34:51Z beach: drmeister_: Oh, you don't have to do that.  I have started reading up on it, but it is higher priority that I finish the minimal compilation and the translation to AST.
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2014-09-21T04:35:42Z drmeister_: No problem.
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2014-09-21T04:35:55Z beach: ryankarason: Wow, fun project!  Not sure what they will gain from it, but very interesting.
2014-09-21T04:36:12Z smokeahauntass: wat does ABCL stand for
2014-09-21T04:36:56Z drmeister_: Armed Bear Common Lisp
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2014-09-21T04:37:54Z drmeister_: It's something to do with big hairy guys and second amendment rights in the US.
2014-09-21T04:38:08Z beach: Yeah, probably.
2014-09-21T04:38:27Z ryankarason: beach: not sure what they will gain either, but it excites me... just the words "lisp machine"
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2014-09-21T04:38:47Z ryankarason: drmeister_: also i am a small but very hairy guy from the us
2014-09-21T04:39:00Z ryankarason: =P
2014-09-21T04:39:11Z ryankarason: beach: what i would like to see though is a native mcu that runs lisp
2014-09-21T04:39:33Z ryankarason: just because i have wanted to directly program lisp for my atmel mcu every since i knew lisp and started playing around with microcontrollers
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2014-09-21T04:40:33Z ryankarason: i just imagine being serialed in to a mcu live trying code, rather than writing, compiling, shooting over, rebooting, see how it runs ect.
2014-09-21T04:40:49Z drmeister_: That's good - I'm a big proponent of eating properly, exercising and keeping ones weight down.
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2014-09-21T04:41:00Z beach: ryankarason: By brother did that, but he wrote a small Forth interpreter.
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2014-09-21T04:41:10Z ryankarason: beach: interesting.
2014-09-21T04:41:15Z beach: ryankarason: He uses it to debug telephone software.
2014-09-21T04:41:20Z ryankarason: ah nice
2014-09-21T04:41:24Z beach: ... among other things.
2014-09-21T04:41:28Z ryankarason: though Erlang sure is nice for telephony =P
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2014-09-21T04:41:46Z ryankarason: has anyone created an OTP like framework for lisp?
2014-09-21T04:42:39Z ryankarason: OH MY!... i just found http://lfe.io/
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2014-09-21T04:44:07Z ryankarason: i have thought for a while to port my sketchy version of lisp written in java to c and then atmel c and see if it runs on my mcu, though i think i;d have to put in some nutty memory hacks for it to do anything worthwhile
2014-09-21T04:46:09Z beach: ryankarason: What made you choose Java to write your Lisp system in?
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2014-09-21T04:50:08Z ryankarason: beach: java was the main language taught in my college
2014-09-21T04:50:17Z ryankarason: i knew it best at the time.
2014-09-21T04:50:25Z beach: I see.
2014-09-21T04:50:30Z ryankarason: i find writing java particularly easy
2014-09-21T04:50:41Z ryankarason: and writing an object oriented lisp machine was fun :)
2014-09-21T04:51:10Z ryankarason: and we weren't allowed to write lisp in lisp for the class..
2014-09-21T04:51:16Z ryankarason: jerks =P
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2014-09-21T04:53:28Z nevermoreraven: what's a cool program written in lisp?
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2014-09-21T04:53:52Z Quadrescence: nevermoreraven, what kinds of things do you find cool
2014-09-21T04:53:52Z minion: Quadrescence, memo from Shinmera: I made a thing. http://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/6T#
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2014-09-21T04:54:11Z nevermoreraven: how about a music player?
2014-09-21T04:56:05Z Quadrescence: nevermoreraven, this was written in Lisp http://opusmodus.com/
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2014-09-21T04:56:29Z nevermoreraven: know about that one already
2014-09-21T04:56:43Z Quadrescence: that's all i know about music in Lisp
2014-09-21T04:56:43Z nevermoreraven: is there any free and open source ones? Quadrescence
2014-09-21T04:56:43Z beach: nevermoreraven: Does that make it less cool?
2014-09-21T04:56:54Z Quadrescence: gsharp too I guess I know
2014-09-21T04:57:13Z Quadrescence: http://common-lisp.net/project/gsharp/
2014-09-21T04:57:22Z beach: nevermoreraven: Also OpenMusic.
2014-09-21T04:57:31Z Petit_Dejeuner_: lilypad comes to mind, but that's not common lisp
2014-09-21T04:58:25Z beach: nevermoreraven: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMusic
2014-09-21T04:58:36Z ryankarason: beach: yes... cool factor is halved if the source is closed
2014-09-21T04:58:41Z ryankarason: :)
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2014-09-21T05:00:04Z Quadrescence: minion, how do i send a memo?
2014-09-21T05:00:04Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2014-09-21T05:00:08Z Quadrescence: @_@
2014-09-21T05:00:22Z ryankarason: ∴)
2014-09-21T05:00:34Z beach: Quadrescence: minion: memo for <nick>: <text>
2014-09-21T05:00:45Z nevermoreraven: why does RMS recommend to learn lisp?
2014-09-21T05:00:58Z beach: nevermoreraven: Wow, very strange questions.
2014-09-21T05:01:05Z beach: nevermoreraven: You had better ask him.
2014-09-21T05:01:40Z Quadrescence: memo for Shinmera: good code. Nice and simple. Though, of course, not as optimized. ;)
2014-09-21T05:01:46Z Quadrescence: minion, memo for Shinmera: good code. Nice and simple. Though, of course, not as optimized. ;)
2014-09-21T05:01:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-09-21T05:03:35Z beach: nevermoreraven: I don't know what reasons RMS has, but generally speaking, people who have been exposed to lisp *and* understood it, prefer Lisp over other languages after that.  It is therefore natural for them to recommend to others that they learn Lisp.  Again, I don't know why RMS is recommending it.
2014-09-21T05:04:12Z ryankarason: if i had to give any one reason it is because, it makes you think differently
2014-09-21T05:04:20Z nevermoreraven: RMS says that lisp is very powerful
2014-09-21T05:04:20Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-09-21T05:04:25Z ryankarason: anyone reason i'd recommend to learn lisp*
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2014-09-21T05:05:00Z ryankarason: nevermoreraven: any turing complete language is /very/ powerful.
2014-09-21T05:05:13Z beach: nevermoreraven: Yeah, RMS is a smart guy.  He is right about that.
2014-09-21T05:05:17Z nevermoreraven: turing?
2014-09-21T05:05:25Z beach: nevermoreraven: Alan Turing.
2014-09-21T05:05:58Z ryankarason: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7284/what-is-turing-complete
2014-09-21T05:06:17Z beach: minion: Please tell nevermoreraven about cl-features.
2014-09-21T05:06:17Z minion: nevermoreraven: please see cl-features: Features of Common Lisp. It is not one single feature that makes Common Lisp so great, but a combination of many of them. See: http://random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html
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2014-09-21T05:06:52Z beach: nevermoreraven: Why are you asking all these questions?
2014-09-21T05:07:15Z ryankarason: Alan Turing was a genius mathemagician that postulated and quantified that one could create a theoretical machine of which could compute any computation given infinite memory.
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2014-09-21T05:08:58Z Quadrescence: beach, do you know of any work in defining lexers/parsers which can be translated into readtable definitions?
2014-09-21T05:09:34Z beach: Can't say I do.  But it would have to be LL(1) I would think.
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2014-09-21T05:10:31Z Quadrescence: I would think so too
2014-09-21T05:10:42Z beach: Quadrescence: It really depends on what you will allow.  I mean, you could define #[ ... ] to be a reader macro.  Then "..." could be any language.
2014-09-21T05:11:35Z beach: Quadrescence: Then you are not limited to LL(1)
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2014-09-21T05:13:20Z beach: Quadrescence: What is it that you want to accomplish?
2014-09-21T05:13:50Z nevermoreraven: does lisp have to be compiled in order to work?
2014-09-21T05:13:50Z nevermoreraven: or can you run it like a script
2014-09-21T05:14:05Z beach: nevermoreraven: You are confused.
2014-09-21T05:14:11Z Quadrescence: beach, Oh, nothing. I was just looking at ZETA-C and Vacietis which let you bind a readtable and let you LOAD a C file.
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2014-09-21T05:14:27Z beach: nevermoreraven: Compilation and scripting are orthogonal issues.
2014-09-21T05:14:32Z Quadrescence: And I thought about the more general problem of generating readtables from grammars.
2014-09-21T05:14:41Z beach: I see.
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2014-09-21T05:15:06Z nevermoreraven: explain
2014-09-21T05:15:08Z beach: nevermoreraven: Perhaps you think that "compiling" means "generating an executable file".  This is not the case.
2014-09-21T05:15:33Z beach: nevermoreraven: Again, I am asking you, why are you asking these questions?  What are you planning to do with the answers?
2014-09-21T05:15:51Z nevermoreraven: maybe learn to program
2014-09-21T05:15:53Z ryankarason: nevermoreraven: i would suggest that if you have a moment, to hop over to http://common-lisp.net/language.html and read through the page
2014-09-21T05:16:08Z ryankarason: it isn't very long and packs the punch that is common lisp
2014-09-21T05:16:21Z ryankarason: and if you have questions thereafter, hop back here for clarification :)
2014-09-21T05:16:48Z beach: nevermoreraven: You seem to know some programming already.  Learning Common Lisp is a good idea then, because it will open your eyes.
2014-09-21T05:17:02Z ryankarason: aye^
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2014-09-21T05:22:11Z pjb: beach: you can parse any language from reader macros, it doesn't need to be LL(1).  The only difference is in the way input is done.  Instead of having a loop with read-char inside the parser, you have an "event loop" (the REPL), and events in the form of reader macros called.
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2014-09-21T05:24:13Z pjb: nevermoreraven: reading sicp and/or watching te sicp lecture is brain opening, not only eyes opening ;-)
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2014-09-21T05:28:27Z nevermoreraven: what is a good guide for a complete newbie?
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2014-09-21T05:29:32Z beach: nevermoreraven: If you already know some programming, probably PCL.
2014-09-21T05:29:48Z nevermoreraven: what is PCL?
2014-09-21T05:29:50Z beach: nevermoreraven: Practical Common Lisp.
2014-09-21T05:29:52Z theos joined #lisp
2014-09-21T05:29:56Z beach: By Peter Seibel.
2014-09-21T05:30:03Z nevermoreraven: I have only written basic bash scripts
2014-09-21T05:30:12Z beach: Hmm, OK.
2014-09-21T05:30:34Z beach: minion: Please tell nevermoreraven about gentle.
2014-09-21T05:30:35Z minion: nevermoreraven: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2014-09-21T05:31:06Z beach: pjb: Thanks!
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2014-09-21T05:34:34Z ryankarason: ... what about Land of Lisp !?
2014-09-21T05:34:47Z beach: ryankarason: What about it?
2014-09-21T05:34:59Z ryankarason: i'd say for a newcomer that is a great introduction to LISP
2014-09-21T05:35:20Z beach: ryankarason: You are free to recommend what you want. I haven't read it so I can't recommend it.
2014-09-21T05:35:25Z ryankarason: ah OKAY
2014-09-21T05:35:45Z ryankarason: well, it is more practicable than PCL, because it is taken from the perspective of actually programming lisp =P
2014-09-21T05:36:37Z ryankarason: nevermoreraven: my highly rated suggestion is Land of Lisp: http://landoflisp.com/
2014-09-21T05:36:55Z ryankarason: it teaches you lisp, by walking you through writing games in Common Lisp
2014-09-21T05:37:38Z pjb: Actually, hooking the lisp reader to arbitrary parsers can be done in a hybrid way, since the reader macros can read as many characters as they want.
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2014-09-21T05:38:18Z ryankarason: nevermoreraven: unfortunately there isn't a free copy of the book available, but it is worth your pennies.
2014-09-21T05:38:57Z beach: pjb: It sounds like that is what I mean by writing a parser for an arbitrary language inside the brackets of some reader macro.
2014-09-21T05:39:34Z pjb: Well, using a parenthesized reader macro is best for tools (editors) and keeping sanity inside sexps.  But it is no way mandatory.
2014-09-21T05:40:28Z beach: pjb: I think I figured out how to write an incremental reader for an editor that would take into account user-defined reader macros.
2014-09-21T05:40:57Z beach: pjb: It can't be perfect, but it will cover most cases.
2014-09-21T05:41:07Z pjb: The standard allows using reader macros as many times over as tools wish.
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2014-09-21T05:41:41Z beach: pjb: Like I said, there are strange cases that won't work.
2014-09-21T05:42:03Z defaultxr: can anyone tell me about usocket's timeout parameter for the socket-connect function? i was expecting it to trigger a timeout-error condition if i provided it and reading from the socket's stream didn't return within the provided timeout. but that isn't happening
2014-09-21T05:42:19Z defaultxr: i'm working on an irc bot and i'm trying to detect ping timeouts, basically
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2014-09-21T06:28:04Z spareWat is now known as commanderKolya
2014-09-21T06:28:19Z commanderKolya is now known as KommanderKallya
2014-09-21T06:28:28Z KommanderKallya is now known as KommanderCulo
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2014-09-21T06:30:03Z KommanderCulo: so working for who grants access to borg with unlimited DepthScan of Physical,,,,,i mean hardware libraries?
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2014-09-21T06:31:08Z KommanderCulo: need to go data mining
2014-09-21T06:31:08Z beach: KommanderCulo: I can't even parse your question.
2014-09-21T06:31:38Z KommanderCulo: im asking. who other than google has access to the most Physical....i mean hardware library Data?
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2014-09-21T06:32:07Z KommanderCulo: need more data
2014-09-21T06:32:15Z KommanderCulo: MOAR Cookies
2014-09-21T06:32:37Z Quadrescence: SYNTAX ERROR
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2014-09-21T06:33:12Z KommanderCulo: NOT CASEignored
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2014-09-21T06:39:18Z Quadrescence: Reinventing (CLIM) presentations is no fun.
2014-09-21T06:40:03Z beach: I know :)
2014-09-21T06:40:22Z Quadrescence: O
2014-09-21T06:40:34Z Quadrescence: I've barely broke the surface https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-pt__gKL_0
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2014-09-21T06:41:37Z beach: Is that yours?
2014-09-21T06:41:58Z Quadrescence: yes
2014-09-21T06:42:00Z beach: Very nice!  The graphics could be improved, but I get the idea.
2014-09-21T06:42:12Z Quadrescence: there are unicode charmaps that can be used
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2014-09-21T06:42:45Z beach: Yeah, sure.
2014-09-21T06:42:48Z Quadrescence: except default ncurses.so doesn't support it. (hence "ncurses sucks"). Character manipulation in C is miserable.
2014-09-21T06:43:03Z Quadrescence: especially when you're writing Lisp to talk to C.
2014-09-21T06:43:18Z beach: Wow, you are using ncurses for this?
2014-09-21T06:43:36Z Quadrescence: yeah
2014-09-21T06:43:43Z beach: There would be room for a "terminal" backend for CLIM II and CLIM3/Climatis.
2014-09-21T06:44:04Z beach: Sort of like an improved ncurses accessible from Lisp.
2014-09-21T06:44:14Z Quadrescence: i'd love that, only because I know a terminal will exist in 50 years, and GUI du jour will not.
2014-09-21T06:44:30Z beach: Yeah, I can see that. :)
2014-09-21T06:47:13Z ryankarason: i was thinking of learning ncurses...
2014-09-21T06:47:59Z ryankarason: i have seen the future of GUI and i may some day leave this terminal and head to the land of the gfx, but until then 'long live tty!'
2014-09-21T06:48:02Z Quadrescence: ryankarason, learn it in a few weeks after I've made a sane API for it
2014-09-21T06:48:12Z ryankarason: Quadrescence: will do.
2014-09-21T06:48:20Z ryankarason: i was looking at some perl "apis" and they seemed OK
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2014-09-21T06:48:48Z Quadrescence: I dunno about Perl but I know Lisp could have relatively decent interfaces for it.
2014-09-21T06:48:53Z ryankarason: for colors, i still use a bash script i have which echos things with ctrl sequences
2014-09-21T06:49:02Z RoadkillGames: is there a general programming channel. thats wat i need
2014-09-21T06:49:11Z Quadrescence: RoadkillGames, #programming
2014-09-21T06:49:25Z RoadkillGames: thanks
2014-09-21T06:49:42Z RoadkillGames is now known as musicalPsyRats
2014-09-21T06:49:43Z pjb: RoadkillGames: and #lispcafe about general discussion amongst lispers.
2014-09-21T06:49:55Z pjb: (which includes general programming).
2014-09-21T06:50:15Z Quadrescence: ryankarason, I did raw control sequences for some applications to move text about the terminal
2014-09-21T06:50:17Z Quadrescence: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/lisp-random/raw/15c705aba6c259f8e69b3d1d8b1f8dbde51a3c03/terminal-marquee.lisp
2014-09-21T06:50:57Z pjb: Nothing as sophisticated as ECMA-048 (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ecma048).
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2014-09-21T06:51:35Z Quadrescence: certainly not :)
2014-09-21T06:51:40Z musicalPsyRats is now known as orcaStraighton
2014-09-21T06:51:40Z ryankarason: Quadrescence: :D
2014-09-21T06:52:24Z orcaStraighton is now known as orKastrateOn
2014-09-21T06:52:59Z Quadrescence: pjb, where's BourguignOS? Sounds like you've written all of the disparate pieces.
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2014-09-21T06:53:30Z ryankarason: so as i have said, i have seen the future of GUI and some day there may be enough reason to leave the terminal for a interim. at this moment i don't see any draw really to being in a graphical environment except for viewing pictures (including those fancy moving types)
2014-09-21T06:54:14Z ryankarason: however, i have seen some demos through Weston/Wayland of essentially Wolfenstien as a desktop environment
2014-09-21T06:54:38Z ryankarason: so you can walk around a world, through up a web-browser on the wall of a castle, go up to it and make it full screen
2014-09-21T06:54:51Z ryankarason: throw a movie screen up on another wall and as you walk away the sound fades
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2014-09-21T06:55:23Z ryankarason: i then started imagining my computers file system as a bunch of rooms in 3d spaces and i had a mental orgasm. twas interesting thought.
2014-09-21T06:56:14Z ryankarason: imagine "roaming" through your computer
2014-09-21T06:56:20Z Quadrescence: sounds like the most inefficient way to go through your file system
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2014-09-21T06:57:10Z Shinmera: Are we playing pretend that it's 1980s fiction today
2014-09-21T06:57:10Z minion: Shinmera, memo from Quadrescence: good code. Nice and simple. Though, of course, not as optimized. ;)
2014-09-21T06:57:44Z Quadrescence: yes
2014-09-21T06:57:50Z Shinmera: Quadrescence: Not sure how you could optimise that any further except for maybe dropping out the keyword args on the delegate function, but I'm sure you can hack that in yourself without much effort.
2014-09-21T06:57:59Z madrik: ryankarason: "It's a UNIX system!" from /Jurassic Park/?
2014-09-21T06:58:28Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, i think the one I did is a good one: turn the unchecked function into a plain call without passing keyword args.
2014-09-21T06:58:35Z Quadrescence: Shinmera, your code was a pleasure to read
2014-09-21T06:58:49Z ryankarason: madrik: :D really makes me want to watch some Jurassic Park
2014-09-21T06:58:51Z Shinmera: Quadrescence: Now you're making me blush
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2014-09-21T07:00:48Z madrik: ryankarason: I heard that that file manager (or a clone of it) is available for Linux somewhere
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2014-09-21T07:16:13Z ryankarason: :), it isn't about efficiency obviously. can't beat terminal at that. but rather some days a black and white screen is a bit boring and i'd like to be lazy and roam about my fs
2014-09-21T07:16:28Z ryankarason: i can only imagine what /proc/ looks like
2014-09-21T07:17:16Z pjb: Quadrescence: it'll come eventually :-)
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2014-09-21T07:19:53Z pjb:  ryankarason: assumedly, with artificial intelligence, we won't need a GUI at all anymore.  I mean, you didn't have GUI when you had secretaries to do your chores.  Not to say that the AIs won't display things on screens, or on 3D goggles, or directly into your brain visual cortex.
2014-09-21T07:20:26Z resttime: does anyone manage the common-lisp.net i just thought of another suggestion
2014-09-21T07:23:16Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2014-09-21T07:23:38Z pjb: resttime: there is someone who manages common-lisp.net. To know who, type: whois common-lisp.net or nslookup -query=soa common-lisp.net.
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2014-09-21T07:24:34Z resttime: hmm, don't think my hexchat supports that
2014-09-21T07:24:58Z resttime: ah well, but the idea is pretty much absorbing the cliki
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2014-09-21T07:25:16Z resttime: cliki is the #1 place i got to for lisp pretty much
2014-09-21T07:25:25Z resttime: got lib list organized fairly enough
2014-09-21T07:25:37Z resttime: and has the recommended libraries too
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2014-09-21T07:26:26Z resttime: errr this is the perspective from a more newbie programmer
2014-09-21T07:26:36Z resttime: of lisp
2014-09-21T07:27:42Z resttime: if it really wants to attract, also have examples of libraries easily in use and etc.
2014-09-21T07:27:56Z resttime: cliki feels hard to navigate sometimes
2014-09-21T07:29:01Z resttime: having things very easy to setup up getting things going is very important for most newer programmers i believe
2014-09-21T07:29:31Z resttime: i'm attracted to buzzwords and such myself 8)
2014-09-21T07:29:43Z pjb: cliki doesn't want anything.  If you find it hard to navigate, add links!  Edit it to make it better!
2014-09-21T07:29:47Z pjb: It is a fucking wiki!
2014-09-21T07:30:28Z Quadrescence: pjb, But cliki's homepage isn't an infinite scroll page on how Lisp is the Next Big Thing with fancy JavaScript and designer logos.
2014-09-21T07:30:30Z Bazzie quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2014-09-21T07:30:54Z Quadrescence: With buzzwords in big bold letters down the left margin
2014-09-21T07:30:55Z pjb: infinite scrolls are horrible.
2014-09-21T07:31:03Z Quadrescence: EASY.
2014-09-21T07:31:09Z Quadrescence:             Common Lisp is the easy language.
2014-09-21T07:31:10Z Quadrescence:  
2014-09-21T07:31:12Z Quadrescence: SIMPLE.
2014-09-21T07:31:17Z Quadrescence:             Common Lisp is simple.
2014-09-21T07:31:19Z Quadrescence:  
2014-09-21T07:31:20Z phadthai: hmm maybe that's why I found the common-lisp.net home page useless the few times I visited heh
2014-09-21T07:32:21Z nydel: common lisp is simply one lambda with a bunch of parenthesis that aren't really there.
2014-09-21T07:32:25Z phadthai: I expected a list of hosted projects and mailing lists
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2014-09-21T07:46:07Z theos: cliki is awesome
2014-09-21T07:46:34Z nydel: agreed verily theos
2014-09-21T07:48:05Z nydel: quicklisp is also awesome
2014-09-21T07:48:18Z resttime: oh god yes quicklisp
2014-09-21T07:48:25Z theos: Xach++
2014-09-21T07:48:58Z nydel: resttime: what are your, let's say 3, most quickloaded systems/packages?
2014-09-21T07:50:20Z resttime: hmmm, hard to say
2014-09-21T07:50:31Z resttime: CFFI is probably one
2014-09-21T07:50:40Z nydel: ooo that's a good one
2014-09-21T07:50:53Z nydel: (don't think of it as 3 set in stone, just 3 that come to mind)
2014-09-21T07:51:12Z resttime: drakma's nice
2014-09-21T07:51:34Z nydel: best http request going
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2014-09-21T07:52:32Z resttime: for 3rd one i'll say one i really like: clack
2014-09-21T07:52:55Z Grue`: cl-ppcre, alexandria, split-sequence
2014-09-21T07:53:20Z nydel: Grue`: nice! ppcre is one of mine.
2014-09-21T07:53:32Z nydel: alexandria should be but i'm still getting used to a lot of it.
2014-09-21T07:53:32Z Grue`: though i wish split-sequence wasn't a separate package
2014-09-21T07:53:35Z resttime: hmm actually i'm thinking there are probably systems loaded auto in the background
2014-09-21T07:53:44Z resttime: flexi-streams
2014-09-21T07:53:52Z nydel: resttime: i didn't know what clack was/is so i'm loading it as we speak
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2014-09-21T07:54:04Z resttime: oh it's a very simple to setup webserver
2014-09-21T07:54:05Z Quadrescence: clack is a nice "easy" way to set things up
2014-09-21T07:54:12Z Quadrescence: CLACKUP
2014-09-21T07:54:31Z nydel: i'd go bordeaux-threads, cl-ppcre & usocket
2014-09-21T07:54:54Z pnpuff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-09-21T07:55:08Z nydel: i'm looking into thatnow Quadrescence , seems to have slipped by me
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2014-09-21T07:55:28Z nydel: Grue`: do you mean you wish split-sequence was a part of CL?
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2014-09-21T07:55:54Z resttime: clack + ningle + cl-markup, makes for a very easy dynamic webpage to do IMO
2014-09-21T07:56:34Z nydel: resttime: do you have an example handy? i'm using hunchentoot behind apache for my home
2014-09-21T07:56:56Z nydel: https://github.com/nydel/cl-homepage/blob/master/sdfhome.lisp
2014-09-21T07:57:30Z Quadrescence: soon, i'm gonna set a standard for when people are allowed to use the CL- prefix on their library
2014-09-21T07:57:36Z Quadrescence: CL- is almost always redundant. ;)
2014-09-21T07:58:33Z nydel: that's a really good point Quadrescence - i can't even think of a package that begins with "CL-n" that isn't nicknamed "n"
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2014-09-21T07:58:42Z resttime: nydel: http://pastebin.com/MKApC3uB
2014-09-21T07:58:49Z resttime: fun little webpage i made :)
2014-09-21T07:59:10Z Quadrescence: resttime, hint: QUICKLOAD can take a list of package names.
2014-09-21T07:59:22Z Quadrescence: (ql:quickload '("foo" "bar"))
2014-09-21T07:59:31Z resttime: Quadrescence, thanks I never knew that
2014-09-21T07:59:44Z nydel: resttime: a simplified eliza-esque randomizer that gives affirmations?
2014-09-21T07:59:51Z resttime: yeah hahaha
2014-09-21T07:59:52Z nydel: i love it!
2014-09-21T08:00:04Z resttime: includes a little picture randomly fetched too
2014-09-21T08:00:26Z nydel: i also like that you are using :cl-markup -- i am stuck on it, everyone says to go with :cl-who
2014-09-21T08:01:12Z resttime: i actually haven't used cl-who yet so I can't say anything about it
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2014-09-21T08:01:43Z nydel: resttime: is cheerup online somewhere?
2014-09-21T08:01:46Z resttime: i saw that the person who made clack also works on cl-markup
2014-09-21T08:02:53Z resttime: nydel, http://r.hacked.jp/cheerup
2014-09-21T08:02:59Z Quadrescence: fukamachi does a lot of easy web stuff
2014-09-21T08:03:57Z nydel: resttime:this is just awesome. you rock.
2014-09-21T08:03:59Z resttime: it's an easy idea to do while I learn lisp stuff
2014-09-21T08:04:25Z resttime: hahaha thanks
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2014-09-21T08:05:59Z nydel: the routing is interesting with your packages. my :cl-homepage (will change name in the budding 2.0, Quadrescence :) )  instead runs a server on a trivial port and uses python perl or php to grab the index
2014-09-21T08:06:14Z nydel: so http://nydel.sdf.org is actually http://ma.sdf.org:9903
2014-09-21T08:06:33Z Quadrescence: ;)
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2014-09-21T08:28:29Z pnpuff: hello lisp world! :-)
2014-09-21T08:28:48Z pjb: pnpuff: hello pnpuff island! :-)
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2014-09-21T08:46:27Z beach: Quadrescence: Your little Youtube snippet made me think of TeXmacs: http://www.texmacs.org/tmweb/home/welcome.en.html.  It is written largely in C++ as I recall.  I would love to see a version of it written in CL.
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2014-09-21T09:03:34Z Saigut: hey, who can tell me what Quicklisp does for common lisp?
2014-09-21T09:03:59Z Quadrescence: Saigut, it makes it easy to download packages and their dependencies, and load them into the current image
2014-09-21T09:05:33Z Saigut: Quadrescence: Does it provide some function for common lisp?
2014-09-21T09:05:57Z Quadrescence: it only works for Common Lisp systems defined with the de facto standard tool called ASDF.
2014-09-21T09:07:19Z schjetne: beach: have you seen this? https://mbutterick.github.io/pollen/doc/
2014-09-21T09:07:25Z schjetne: (excuse the Scheme)
2014-09-21T09:07:38Z Saigut: I want to know what Quicklisp exactly do after I install it in common lisp
2014-09-21T09:07:59Z oleo: (ql:quickload :some-lib)
2014-09-21T09:08:13Z oleo: gets you some-lib from the net either via git/other-vcs
2014-09-21T09:08:21Z Quadrescence: Saigut, can you not read the output of the Quicklisp installation?
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2014-09-21T09:08:28Z Quadrescence: Or the webpage all about it?
2014-09-21T09:08:31Z oleo: he maybe skipped it
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2014-09-21T09:11:08Z oleo: (ql:system-apropos "xml") == search for xml libs
2014-09-21T09:11:25Z Quadrescence: you mean: search for libraries whose name contains "xml"
2014-09-21T09:11:43Z oleo: yes
2014-09-21T09:13:01Z Saigut: Quadrescence: I see quicklisp is a library manager, so the file quicklisp.lisp maybe define some functions and varibles for package managment
2014-09-21T09:13:48Z Grue`: Saigut: quicklisp = pip in python, cpan in perl, and so on
2014-09-21T09:14:04Z Quadrescence: Saigut, the file quicklisp.lisp is an installation file
2014-09-21T09:15:16Z Saigut: Grue`: Quadrescence: So quicklisp provide some functions after I loaded it
2014-09-21T09:15:30Z Quadrescence: If you load it, it will print instructions on what to do.
2014-09-21T09:15:35Z Saigut: Grue`: Quadrescence: So quicklisp.lisp provide some functions after I loaded it
2014-09-21T09:15:51Z Grue`: did you read the description on its webpage
2014-09-21T09:15:53Z Quadrescence: Saigut, Please read the instructions at http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation
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2014-09-21T09:17:44Z Saigut: Grue`: Quadrescence: which wrong in my words: So quicklisp.lisp provide some functions after I loaded it
2014-09-21T09:18:00Z Saigut: what's wrong *
2014-09-21T09:18:25Z Grue`: yes it does
2014-09-21T09:18:35Z Grue`: and your problem is?
2014-09-21T09:19:27Z Saigut: Grue`: I don't know what it does
2014-09-21T09:19:51Z Saigut: now I make some sense
2014-09-21T09:19:55Z Quadrescence: Grue`, Read the source code, or visit that website.
2014-09-21T09:21:12Z Quadrescence: Saigut, *
2014-09-21T09:23:36Z Grue`: have you actually tried loading it, it literally prints out what to do next
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2014-09-21T09:24:20Z Saigut: Quadrescence: you are right
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2014-09-21T09:28:31Z Saigut: Grue`: I do loaded it, and follow the intructions to install quicklisp. I don't what it does for common lisp then. Now I now it's to help manage the packages, and it's by some functions to do it
2014-09-21T09:29:04Z Saigut: don't know what it *
2014-09-21T09:29:21Z Saigut: now I know * lol
2014-09-21T09:29:33Z schjetne: What's with all the asterisks?
2014-09-21T09:30:02Z Grue`: have you tried http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#basic-commands
2014-09-21T09:30:28Z Saigut: schjetne: correct my words
2014-09-21T09:30:51Z Saigut: Grue`: not yet
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2014-09-21T09:34:01Z beach: schjetne: Never seen it before.  Thanks for pointing it out.
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2014-09-21T09:50:26Z schjetne: beach: I only heard about it today, I haven't had a chance to use it. But I did read his Practical Guide to Typography a few months ago.
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2014-09-21T10:09:40Z resttime: if i accidentally send an email to the wrong email list, is there something i can do?
2014-09-21T10:10:16Z schjetne: nothing, apart from resending the email to the right email list
2014-09-21T10:11:17Z resttime: darn, how embarrassing
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2014-09-21T10:12:50Z shka: ave tux all
2014-09-21T10:13:29Z shka: how to have a default value for a slot (so if key will not be provided, it will for instance use value from some form)
2014-09-21T10:13:42Z resttime: :initform
2014-09-21T10:13:57Z resttime: there's also :default-args i think
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2014-09-21T10:19:43Z shka: resttime: i know about initform, but didn't heared about default-args
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2014-09-21T10:19:56Z shka: thanks, i will google it
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2014-09-21T10:21:55Z shka: resttime: thank you sir, i didn't knew that i can use both initarg and initform at the same time
2014-09-21T10:21:59Z shka: :-)
2014-09-21T10:22:11Z resttime: shka, no prob
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2014-09-21T10:27:31Z pjb: Grue`: quicklisp.lisp doesn't do anything for common lisp, after it has been loaded.  Quicklisp doesn't do anything after it has been loaded either.  But quicklisp.lisp as Quadrescence said, is an installation script.  Once quicklisp has been installed, quicklisp.lisp is not used anymore.  Only ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp and the other files in ~/quicklisp are used after quicklisp installation.
2014-09-21T10:27:42Z pjb: Grue`: next time Saigut ask, explain him!
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2014-09-21T10:29:34Z pjb: schjetne: the asterisks are some misunderstood grammarian convention.  Grammarians, sometimes use it as a notation for WRONG (ie. ungramatical) sentences.  Some people find it funny to use it for their corrections.
2014-09-21T10:29:48Z pjb: s/ungramatical/ungrammatical/
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2014-09-21T10:31:30Z pjb: resttime: you can try to hack all the MTA and all the UA who got a copy of your email, and try to erase it from their hard disks and backups and to erase their log files etc.  Needless to say, you'd have to become a criminal in most countries of the world to do that.
2014-09-21T10:32:24Z pjb: (I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it would be very difficult and very dangerous.  For example, you'd have to include hacking the NSA datacenters, and therefore you'd have all the USA police and armed forces after you).
2014-09-21T10:33:42Z pjb: You'd probably stand a better chance in completing Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged's task.
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2014-09-21T10:39:17Z shka: pjb: good day sir
2014-09-21T10:41:22Z Adlai: what about just nicely asking the NSA to have TAO take care of the runaway email?
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2014-09-21T10:44:39Z resttime: this channel will get flagged if N-SA keeps getting mentioned :(
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2014-09-21T10:45:59Z resttime: maybe they will be after me because they want to hire me
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2014-09-21T11:07:32Z quazimodo:  so this post did my head in over the weekend
2014-09-21T11:07:33Z quazimodo: http://blog.jacius.info/2012/05/29/a-personal-lisp-crisis/
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2014-09-21T11:19:37Z Shinmera: quazimodo: You know when half of a blog entry is just building up hot air without even coming close to explaining or iterating some specific issues the author is just venting.
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2014-09-21T11:26:47Z quazimodo: Shinmera: bits of it resonate with me, particularly the way the specification for the language is difficult to change
2014-09-21T11:26:55Z quazimodo: that bit really sucks
2014-09-21T11:27:16Z Shinmera: It hasn't really bothered me yet, but I've only worked with CL for a about 1.25 years now, so
2014-09-21T11:27:31Z Shinmera: That might just hit me later.
2014-09-21T11:29:56Z Shinmera: quazimodo: What bothers me most about the entry is that he keeps on saying how CL is a badly designed language and then at other points says that the warts are 'not a huge deal'
2014-09-21T11:30:26Z Shinmera: quazimodo: That really makes it sound to me like he's just flailing about being upset, rather than having a real issue to explain
2014-09-21T11:37:36Z quazimodo: Shinmera: he became disillusioned
2014-09-21T11:41:10Z quazimodo: poor guy, he really got so into the language that all he ended up seeing was the bad parts
2014-09-21T11:41:31Z quazimodo: I think I like the 'hiding' of the old crap via a usability layer like his CLUEL or cl21
2014-09-21T11:41:32Z Shinmera: It also helps not having expectations
2014-09-21T11:41:38Z quazimodo: yeah
2014-09-21T11:42:47Z ggole: Tools don't belong on pedestals
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2014-09-21T11:46:53Z quazimodo: indeed
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2014-09-21T12:14:24Z k-stz: quazimodo: I read that post a year ago, and I only remembered the usability layer and in previous posts of how toxic the cl community presumably is. Nothing else sticked because I couldn't relate to it. I think Shinmera is right, and he's just venting.
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2014-09-21T12:18:29Z quazimodo: do we have an alias package thingo?
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2014-09-21T12:18:46Z quazimodo: so bordeaux-threads:make-thread is remapped to bt:make-thread, or similar
2014-09-21T12:19:04Z Shinmera: You mean package nicknames?
2014-09-21T12:20:12Z quazimodo: sure?
2014-09-21T12:20:22Z quazimodo: i thought I'd done it before with cl-charms but I hadn't
2014-09-21T12:20:39Z Xach: quazimodo: it already does that.
2014-09-21T12:20:50Z Xach: but it is chosen by the library author, not the end-user
2014-09-21T12:20:59Z quazimodo: ok, how do *i* remap
2014-09-21T12:21:04Z Xach: package-local nicknames are the user-nicknaming concept, and they are not supported widely.
2014-09-21T12:21:11Z Xach: sbcl does it, but its syntax is not supported anywhere else.
2014-09-21T12:21:32Z Shinmera: you can use rename-package, but be aware that removing nicknames or the real package name will make things go wrong, most likely
2014-09-21T12:21:52Z Quadrescence: quazimodo, are you hitecnologies?
2014-09-21T12:22:00Z quazimodo: Quadrescence: nope?
2014-09-21T12:22:10Z Quadrescence: oh okay
2014-09-21T12:22:17Z quazimodo: Xach: ok
2014-09-21T12:22:17Z Quadrescence: i guess he's in here anyway, should have checked
2014-09-21T12:22:27Z Quadrescence: quazimodo, do you use cl-charms a lot?
2014-09-21T12:22:41Z quazimodo: Quadrescence: not a *lot*
2014-09-21T12:22:45Z quazimodo: i used it in this project
2014-09-21T12:22:54Z quazimodo: https://github.com/quazimodo/sick-filing
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2014-09-21T12:23:32Z Quadrescence: quazimodo, So you know, I'm currently revamping cl-charms, in a likely incompatible way
2014-09-21T12:23:49Z Xach: rename-package is feasible if you have strong control over everything.
2014-09-21T12:24:00Z Xach: not something feasible in e.g. a library you're going to share with someone else.
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2014-09-21T12:24:18Z Shinmera: Yeah
2014-09-21T12:24:37Z Xach: I wouldn't hesitate to use it in an application if it helped me out.
2014-09-21T12:24:50Z Xach: Just like I wouldn't hesitate to use implementation-specific goodies, reader macros, etc.
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2014-09-21T12:26:40Z quazimodo: Xach: i'm not sure how important portability is
2014-09-21T12:26:53Z quazimodo: Xach: it occurs to me that it's trivially easy to compile with sbcl and ship
2014-09-21T12:27:12Z quazimodo: so I just stuck with and will continue to stick with sbcl
2014-09-21T12:27:21Z quazimodo: most probably, anyway
2014-09-21T12:27:40Z quazimodo: Quadrescence: are you the original author?
2014-09-21T12:28:08Z Quadrescence: no
2014-09-21T12:28:48Z quazimodo: why are you redoing it?
2014-09-21T12:28:53Z Quadrescence: quazimodo, I recently tried to use it and thought it was awful.
2014-09-21T12:29:05Z Quadrescence: I'm not redoing it. I'm improving it, and making a higher level interface to it.
2014-09-21T12:29:30Z wasamasa: quazimodo: hmm, I bothered reading this post
2014-09-21T12:29:46Z wasamasa: quazimodo: and was pretty let down the author didn't bother releasing anything
2014-09-21T12:30:04Z quazimodo: Quadrescence: it was ... something i had to use because I couldnt find another way to interact with the command line
2014-09-21T12:30:11Z quazimodo: s/commandline/terminal
2014-09-21T12:30:23Z quazimodo: wasamasa: he wants common lisp to die and make space for a new better language
2014-09-21T12:30:29Z Quadrescence: quazimodo, yes that makes sense
2014-09-21T12:30:33Z Quadrescence: that's all i could find too
2014-09-21T12:30:41Z wasamasa: quazimodo: I dunno, reads rather like a rant than a well-researched post to me
2014-09-21T12:30:52Z wasamasa: quazimodo: so I can't really take it seriously
2014-09-21T12:30:58Z quazimodo: imho cl has heaps of goodies, it just needs someone to take a knife to it and some progressive people to take lead on a compiler that pushes the others out of the way
2014-09-21T12:31:30Z quazimodo: wasamasa: he's done enough to become so disillusioned. The critical analysis didn't get to me, the mood did
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2014-09-21T12:33:47Z quazimodo: it was sad, very sad to see a neckbeard invest into something and so quickly hit the shit
2014-09-21T12:34:03Z quazimodo hopes the dude has a girlfriend or spouse
2014-09-21T12:36:45Z quazimodo: ok guys I gtg
2014-09-21T12:36:50Z quazimodo: have a good night yall
2014-09-21T12:37:18Z quazimodo: Xach: it's a nice thing you did creating quicklisp btw, wanted to say that yesterday
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2014-09-21T12:55:09Z zighe: what is a program?
2014-09-21T12:57:51Z sid_cypher: that "personal lisp crisis" article was sad, yeah.  common lisp may not be perfect as a language, but that is a really minor thing if you just look at javascript as an example.
2014-09-21T12:58:20Z zighe: what happen inbetween programming language codes and processor logic gates? acess
2014-09-21T12:58:37Z wasamasa: is it existentialism hour again?
2014-09-21T12:59:13Z sid_cypher: zighe: a program is data interpreted and/or executed in a certain way. you can program computers in Common Lisp.
2014-09-21T12:59:53Z zighe: data is electric signals patterns?
2014-09-21T13:00:19Z sid_cypher: zighe: ur trolling, bro
2014-09-21T13:00:35Z zighe: no lol
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2014-09-21T13:02:06Z zighe: I use a program called 3d Nichimen mirai
2014-09-21T13:04:02Z zighe: how happens as this interpretation is by comparison?
2014-09-21T13:04:15Z zighe: like passwords
2014-09-21T13:04:23Z Shinmera: This is #lisp, not a general programming channel.
2014-09-21T13:04:34Z zighe: ok
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2014-09-21T13:23:16Z oleo: cl-ana sucks.....
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2014-09-21T14:26:53Z nydel: what's the way to go about using format to write to two streams at once, such as some open stream s & *standard-output* but in one form?
2014-09-21T14:27:11Z nydel: i remember doing this before but can't recall
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2014-09-21T14:27:55Z Xach: nydel: you could make a broadcast stream
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2014-09-21T14:28:27Z nydel: Xach: that's the concept i couldn't recall, a broadcast stream. thank you much
2014-09-21T14:28:34Z Xach: no problem
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2014-09-21T15:26:38Z oleo: ++head you!
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2014-09-21T15:27:37Z shka: hi all
2014-09-21T15:27:49Z shka: i have a problem
2014-09-21T15:28:02Z shka: any interesting problem i would say
2014-09-21T15:28:16Z shka: i'm building blog with hunchentoot
2014-09-21T15:28:25Z Quadrescence quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2014-09-21T15:28:30Z shka: i'm defining any easy-handler for posts
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2014-09-21T15:28:45Z shka: my posts are stored in the hashmap
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2014-09-21T15:30:08Z shka: so what i do is to create symbol from string identifing that post, than get post from the hashmap
2014-09-21T15:30:25Z shka: but for some odd reason my hashmap will return null
2014-09-21T15:30:44Z shka: symbol name seems to be correct
2014-09-21T15:30:56Z H4ns: shka: you're interning the symbol into the wrong package
2014-09-21T15:31:05Z Grue`: have you tried make-hash-table :test #'equal, you can use actual strings as keys then
2014-09-21T15:31:14Z H4ns: shka: you should never use intern on externally supplied data anyway
2014-09-21T15:31:24Z Grue`: your method seems kinda bad
2014-09-21T15:31:34Z shka: so what should i do?
2014-09-21T15:31:38Z shka: use strings?
2014-09-21T15:31:41Z H4ns: shka: what you see as an "interesting problem" is just a simple beginner's mistake :)
2014-09-21T15:31:50Z H4ns: shka: use find-symbol, not intern
2014-09-21T15:31:56Z shka: H4ns: for me it is interesting ;-)
2014-09-21T15:32:16Z shka: Grue`: do you want to add something?
2014-09-21T15:32:23Z H4ns: shka: then you'll see that find-symbol returns NIL and you'll have to find out why.  hint: it is because of *package* being bound to the wrong package.
2014-09-21T15:32:32Z H4ns: shka: Grue`s advice is not bad either.
2014-09-21T15:32:42Z Grue`: my advice would be to use a database backend
2014-09-21T15:32:46Z H4ns: shka: but sooner or later you'll want to know how packages really work.
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2014-09-21T15:32:54Z shka: Grue`: i dont want to do it tbh
2014-09-21T15:33:04Z H4ns: shka: i was wrong, Grue`s advice _is_ bad :D
2014-09-21T15:33:20Z shka: ok ok
2014-09-21T15:33:42Z Grue`: persistent data should be stored in database
2014-09-21T15:33:57Z Grue`: any other way is wrong
2014-09-21T15:34:18Z H4ns: shka: but really, you can use strings as well.
2014-09-21T15:34:21Z shka: Grue`: database for a simple blog is complete overkill
2014-09-21T15:34:26Z shka: imho
2014-09-21T15:34:45Z shka: H4ns: i want to get symbols working
2014-09-21T15:34:53Z H4ns: shka: follow my advice.
2014-09-21T15:34:58Z shka: ok
2014-09-21T15:35:02Z Grue`: not overkill if you want your data to not be erased when your lisp crashes
2014-09-21T15:35:18Z Shinmera: Whatever happened to plaintext.
2014-09-21T15:35:21Z shka: Grue`: i use clobber
2014-09-21T15:35:29Z shka: it is simple
2014-09-21T15:35:31Z shka: very simple
2014-09-21T15:35:44Z shka: but it is enough for persistant blog
2014-09-21T15:36:09Z Grue`: but anyway, you're just doing extra work by converting a string to a symbol when you can have hash tables with string keys
2014-09-21T15:36:35Z shka: Grue`: i will use strings, but i really want to understand why my method does not work
2014-09-21T15:36:52Z shka: so i have to make symbols work anyway
2014-09-21T15:37:22Z H4ns: shka: switch to find-symbol, and maybe use an explicit package argument.
2014-09-21T15:38:05Z H4ns: shka: but then, you'll basically end up using a package as a hash table and i must concur with Grue` when he says that you could use a first class hash table in the first place
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2014-09-21T15:38:40Z H4ns: shka: symbols really only make sense if you want to use certain identifiers in your source code.
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2014-09-21T15:42:42Z Grue`: there could be something with case-sensitivity, like (intern "aa") creates a lowercase symbol, but 'aa creates upper-case
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2014-09-21T15:43:57Z shka: Grue`: yeah, i got that once
2014-09-21T15:44:05Z shka: H4ns: thank you, sir.
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2014-09-21T15:44:08Z shka: it works now
2014-09-21T15:44:20Z shka: Grue`: i will use strings anyway, thanks for tip
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2014-09-21T15:45:50Z drmeister_: A new reason why C++ is so hostile to interoperation with other languages is "std::unique_ptr" and move semantics.
2014-09-21T15:46:29Z drmeister_: In the 11th hour - I thought I would upgrade to llvm3.5 and in 3.5 the developers started using std::unique_ptr all over the place.
2014-09-21T15:47:39Z drmeister_: If I want to pass values back and forth between C++ and Common Lisp using unique_ptr's I have to generate a lot more template function specializers that handle C++ move semantics (sigh).
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2014-09-21T15:49:32Z H4ns: drmeister_: c++ is not hostile to other languages, it is just very advanced. :)
2014-09-21T15:50:28Z drmeister_: Very advanced in solving the problems that it created itself.
2014-09-21T15:50:41Z drmeister_: Is there any analogue to "move semantics" in Common Lisp?
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2014-09-21T15:51:08Z drmeister_: Why does this stuff just not come up in CL?
2014-09-21T15:51:50Z Petit_Dejeuner_: move semantics?
2014-09-21T15:51:56Z drmeister_: Exactly.
2014-09-21T15:51:56Z H4ns: drmeister_: cl does not operate on raw memory like c++ does.
2014-09-21T15:52:02Z Petit_Dejeuner_: "Exactly." ha
2014-09-21T15:52:21Z Petit_Dejeuner_: I thought SBCL could get pretty low level, but I never got into that.
2014-09-21T15:53:11Z H4ns: drmeister_: when comparing c++ to cl on that level, you'd need to include the implementation specific machine interface in your comparison.  c++ is specified much more deeply with respect to the underlying than cl is.
2014-09-21T15:53:23Z H4ns: underlying _machine_
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2014-09-21T15:57:53Z drmeister_: I think it all comes back to Common Lisp macros.    In C++, "move semantics" refers to copying pointers within objects rather than making deep copies of objects.  With CL macros you can generate code at compile time that does the same thing.  Maybe that's it?
2014-09-21T15:58:13Z drmeister_: Like SETF works with places.
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2014-09-21T16:03:03Z drmeister_: That wasn't a complete thought - I'm still working on it.
2014-09-21T16:03:41Z drmeister_: It doesn't help that I'm not completely comfortable with the concept of C++ rvalues.
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2014-09-21T16:06:56Z drmeister_: Actually, I might be on to something there.
2014-09-21T16:08:23Z drmeister_: In C++ it doesn't make sense to say:   (3+5) = x   because (3+5) is not an lvalue.  An lvalue has a place in memory to put something.  So by exclusion (3+5) is an rvalue.
2014-09-21T16:09:41Z drmeister_: The same thing could be said for a function like:   obj car(obj x).    car(x) returns the CAR of x,   in C++ saying car(x) = 5 is illegal.
2014-09-21T16:10:38Z oGMo: drmeister_: unless car(x) returns a Place, and you overload operator=
2014-09-21T16:10:41Z drmeister_: But if I define obj& car(obj x)     Then I can say   car(x) = make_obj(5).   because car now returns a reference.
2014-09-21T16:10:45Z drmeister_: Right.
2014-09-21T16:10:51Z pnpuff: drmeister_: I don't know if in C++ the rhs of an expression in which you use the = operator could be only a variable or a constant or something else
2014-09-21T16:11:06Z drmeister_: In CL the equivalent is: (setf (car x) y)
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2014-09-21T16:13:10Z drmeister_: Where I'm going with this is I think SETF is more versatile than C++ references and it enables CL to do everything "move semantics" in C++ is meant to do.   I just don't see how at the moment, it's a gut feeling.
2014-09-21T16:13:46Z drmeister_ trusts his gut.
2014-09-21T16:14:08Z pnpuff: ops, the lhs
2014-09-21T16:14:32Z oGMo: drmeister_: sortof
2014-09-21T16:14:54Z oGMo: i mean, self is entirely syntactical rather than .. type-based, i guess
2014-09-21T16:14:59Z oGMo: "setf"
2014-09-21T16:15:22Z oGMo: so in theory it's more flexible but idiomatically i don't think you would actually do much differently
2014-09-21T16:15:39Z oGMo: or end up with much additional functionality, at least
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2014-09-21T16:16:15Z drmeister_: But does C++ "move semantics" solve a problem that CL doesn't have or is CL missing something important?
2014-09-21T16:16:34Z drmeister_: move semantics are a big new deal in C++.
2014-09-21T16:16:47Z oGMo: it's more of a way to solve a problem only C++ has, i think
2014-09-21T16:16:50Z drmeister_: That's my fundamental question.
2014-09-21T16:17:22Z drmeister_: That's what I think but can't prove at the moment.
2014-09-21T16:18:49Z oGMo: i think it comes down to 1) can you always do the same operations? 2) can you express them in a reasonably similar manner?
2014-09-21T16:19:02Z drmeister_: Perhaps it's an "angel dancing on pins" sort of question.  But it occurred to me this morning when I realized how much trouble C++ functions returning and consuming std::unique_ptr's was causing my interop between CL/C++.
2014-09-21T16:21:18Z drmeister_: When C++ comes up with a solution to the "snarglefooted quiznots" problem one might start wondering how Common Lisp solves the "snarglefooted quiznots" problem.
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2014-09-21T16:21:52Z eugenee: Hi
2014-09-21T16:22:04Z drmeister_: Howdy
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2014-09-21T16:22:34Z eugenee: So I am probably doing bad things with BORDEAUX-THREADS (don't worry just experimenting):
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2014-09-21T16:23:21Z shka: drmeister_: not sure if move semantics has any sense in the land of lisp
2014-09-21T16:23:26Z eugenee: In order to safely (hah!) kill a thread (asynchronously), I use INTERRUPT-THREAD and THROW (with a establishd CATCH in the thread)
2014-09-21T16:23:33Z shka: since we pass mostly be reference
2014-09-21T16:23:53Z shka: and we don't do implicit copies all over the place
2014-09-21T16:24:02Z shka: anyway
2014-09-21T16:24:10Z shka: strings also works
2014-09-21T16:24:11Z jsnell: CL does not pass by reference
2014-09-21T16:24:14Z shka: so yay :D
2014-09-21T16:24:17Z shka: jsnell: no?
2014-09-21T16:25:01Z drmeister_: jsnell: Yeah - could you explain that a little more - I don't quite appreciate the subtleties of passing pointers vs passing by reference.
2014-09-21T16:25:04Z eugenee: The problem is: If I interrupt a thread which has not yet entered the CATCH, I get a CONTROL-ERROR
2014-09-21T16:25:27Z jsnell: if it were pass by reference you could implement e.g. ROTATEF as a function rather than a macro
2014-09-21T16:25:30Z Bike: i don't think talking about "pass by reference" outside of a C-oid context is going to do much but confuse everybody.
2014-09-21T16:26:03Z eugenee: So far so good, but I can not RETURN then, and there is no way to stop the thread (which makes the JOIN-THREAD after the interrupt kind of awkward)
2014-09-21T16:26:11Z jsnell: a CL function call is call-by-value, but the value is a pointer
2014-09-21T16:27:35Z drmeister_: Bike: Good point - I always thought of "pass by reference" as "that value you had outside the function, you now have inside the function"
2014-09-21T16:28:12Z drmeister_: I understand passing pointers by value.   That's easy.
2014-09-21T16:29:03Z Bike: i think a problem is that C programmers start conflating variables with pointers, which is wrong even in C, and in lisp is even more so
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2014-09-21T16:31:06Z drmeister_: Well, I'll keep thinking on my "move semantics" solves a problem in C++ that Common Lisp doesn't have idea.  Maybe there's something to it, maybe not.
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2014-09-21T16:33:14Z faheem_: drmeister_: how's the cleanup going?
2014-09-21T16:34:08Z oGMo: jsnell: if you look at it that way, nothing passes by reference, because there's always the value of a pointer passed
2014-09-21T16:34:36Z drmeister_: Well, I just had to go and upgrade to the latest major release of LLVM3.5.  If you read above you will see the troubles that has caused me.   In the last couple of months the LLVM developers have moved heavily towards using std::unique_ptr and that causes lots of problems with wrapping C++ functions that return and consume std::unique_ptr.
2014-09-21T16:34:37Z oGMo: especially with e.g. void foo(bar *b)
2014-09-21T16:34:48Z jsnell: drmeister_: it's just one solution for managing object lifetimes. in CL the garbage collector is the ultimate arbiter of that, and there's little room for other solutions. those are by no means the only solutions (e.g. linear types)
2014-09-21T16:34:59Z oGMo: but bar &b in C++ is the same thing, the deref syntax is just automatic
2014-09-21T16:36:23Z jsnell: yeah, using technical terms in their established meaning is a total drag
2014-09-21T16:37:03Z jsnell: communication would be so much more fun if we could all just come up with our own meanings for them
2014-09-21T16:37:35Z drmeister_: jsnell: Good point.  Yes, the garbage collector takes care of lots of problems and the cost of a garbage collector is hard to quantitate or control. I guess C/C++ programmers react against that.
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2014-09-21T16:41:35Z ehu: hi
2014-09-21T16:41:44Z pnpuff: hello ehu
2014-09-21T16:42:21Z faheem: drmeister_: so, not public yet, then?
2014-09-21T16:42:36Z drmeister_: Not public yet.  I'm working on it more today.
2014-09-21T16:43:14Z drmeister_: I didn't anticipate std::unique_ptr would rear it's head in the 59th minute of the 11th hour.
2014-09-21T16:43:20Z drmeister_: its  - gah
2014-09-21T16:43:44Z drmeister_: I should put tape over that apostrophe key.
2014-09-21T16:44:52Z drmeister_ thinks C++ has become his first language and English has been pushed down his language stack.
2014-09-21T16:46:52Z faheem: Things always come up in the 59th minute of the 11th hour. Though I think you maybe mean 12th hour.
2014-09-21T16:47:45Z faheem: Wonder why people say 11th hour
2014-09-21T16:48:21Z Bike: we're programmers, we start counting from the zero hour
2014-09-21T16:48:34Z drmeister_: In Canada we say "the 99th minute in the 9th hour" because we use metric time.
2014-09-21T16:48:57Z Xach: faheem: Great War reference
2014-09-21T16:49:16Z faheem: Bike: lol
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2014-09-21T16:49:50Z faheem: Xach: link? Also, these days, they call it the First World War. :-)
2014-09-21T16:50:13Z Xach: i'm not sure the 2nd one will catch on
2014-09-21T16:50:16Z Bike: the armistice was signed in the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the bla bla bla
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2014-09-21T16:50:58Z Xach: faheem: googling suggests it's biblical. my mistake.
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2014-09-21T16:55:50Z drmeister_: faheem: Anyway, what I thought was going to be a weekend of cleaning up the build system turned into a weekend of wrestling with C++ rvalue(s), std::unique_ptr(s) and google-pump.    Story of my life.
2014-09-21T16:57:04Z drmeister_: But I thought I had to advance to a major release of LLVM - I was using something intermediate between 3.4 and 3.5 - neither fish nor foul.
2014-09-21T16:57:11Z drmeister_: fowl.
2014-09-21T16:57:15Z faheem: Xach: oh. anyway, i'm asking on english.sx. and got threatened with a cutoff too.
2014-09-21T16:57:29Z drmeister_: Maybe "foul" is a better word.
2014-09-21T16:57:42Z faheem: drmeister_: yes, C++ enjoys being a pain. but i think we covered that yesterday
2014-09-21T16:57:51Z faheem: sorry about your headaches
2014-09-21T16:58:44Z drmeister_: I'm just reading:  "Rvalue references and the related concept of move semantics is one of the most powerful new features the C++11 standard introduces to the language."
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2014-09-21T17:01:05Z drmeister_: And then I wonder: should I be excited or disgusted?   Or is it like those unsavory movies on the interwebs "A little of both".
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2014-09-21T17:02:01Z drmeister_ drops that line of thought right there.
2014-09-21T17:02:51Z faheem: i read about move semantics. i still don't know what it means
2014-09-21T17:04:04Z ggole: It's just an optimisation.
2014-09-21T17:04:10Z drmeister_: faheem: That's like me 24 hours ago!
2014-09-21T17:04:52Z faheem: ggole: oh
2014-09-21T17:04:59Z faheem: drmeister_: :-)
2014-09-21T17:08:09Z ggole: faheem: because C++ ties object lifetimes to scope, deep copies of remote parts of data structures usually have to be made upon assignment.
2014-09-21T17:08:16Z faheem: one of the most powerful new features you don't understand.
2014-09-21T17:08:20Z ggole: Move semantics allows the programmer to remove some of those copies.
2014-09-21T17:08:25Z ggole: That's it.
2014-09-21T17:08:48Z faheem: ggole: oh
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2014-09-21T17:09:52Z ggole: The machinery introduced for that purpose is... not the simplest imaginable thing.
2014-09-21T17:11:15Z faheem: ggole: i'll bet. so you write C++ too?
2014-09-21T17:11:34Z drmeister_: faheem: This was helpful: http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2011/12/15/understanding-lvalues-and-rvalues-in-c-and-c/
2014-09-21T17:11:37Z ggole: Every now and then I get to maintain some.
2014-09-21T17:12:16Z faheem: drmeister_: thanks. i wonder if i should read it
2014-09-21T17:13:40Z drmeister_: It's up to you.  I'm between a rock and a hard place with my desire to get Clasp out and these stupid std::unique_ptr(s) showing up in the LLVM3.5 library which break my CL/C++ interop and break my compiler.
2014-09-21T17:14:53Z drmeister_: I've danced around understanding rvalues and move semantics for more than a year.  CL is so much easier to think about - you pass pointers - end of story.
2014-09-21T17:15:17Z drmeister_: Or maybe not the end but definitely easier to understand.
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2014-09-21T17:26:14Z faheem: drmeister_: i know what lvales and rvalues are. they're basic
2014-09-21T17:26:27Z faheem: i think the terms originate in C, actually
2014-09-21T17:26:45Z drewc: good (local-time:timestamp-day-of-week (local-time:universal-to-timestamp (get-universal-time)))) all... oh happy day! :)
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2014-09-21T17:27:39Z faheem: lvalue is storage. rvalue is not. to a first approximation
2014-09-21T17:28:00Z drmeister_: faheem: I should be more careful, I don't presume to know what you know.  I'm explaining what I didn't understand and what I read to reach a slightly deeper enlightenment.
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2014-09-21T17:29:06Z drewc: with C++, do we not take the value of C before it is incremented? That might explain why I have never liked it! :)
2014-09-21T17:29:12Z faheem: drmeister_: no problem. i wasn't complaining
2014-09-21T17:29:42Z faheem: drewc: how could anyone *like* C++?
2014-09-21T17:29:58Z drmeister_: drewc: You make an excellent point.  Perhaps someday we will have ++C and then we will finally be happy.
2014-09-21T17:30:20Z drmeister_: That and when I get my iphone 6.
2014-09-21T17:30:44Z drewc: faheem: I have no idea TBH, but recruiters do call me and offer me a position that has C++ involved .... Wither it is liked I do not know.
2014-09-21T17:30:45Z shka: heh
2014-09-21T17:30:59Z shka: drmeister_: What about Rust?
2014-09-21T17:31:11Z faheem: drewc: :-)
2014-09-21T17:31:48Z drewc: drmeister_: I do sort of like objective C, even ran NeXT under an emulator some 15-18 years ago :)
2014-09-21T17:34:24Z drmeister_: drewc: I bought a NeXT machine pizza box with my own money as a graduate student.  I also had an internship at Xerox and they had all these Star machines lying around that they couldn't sell to anyone.   They made me permanently unsatisfied with the state of computing. I'm certain I would have run away to live in the wilderness had I been exposed to a lisp machine.
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2014-09-21T17:35:06Z drewc: mmmmmmmm Star ... what I would give to have one!
2014-09-21T17:36:05Z drewc: of course, no room at all for such a thing where i live ... moore's law really helps to minimize space usage.
2014-09-21T17:36:37Z faheem: Star machine?
2014-09-21T17:36:58Z drewc: faheem: ever use a GUI?
2014-09-21T17:37:55Z faheem: drewc: occasionally
2014-09-21T17:37:59Z drewc is going to make a 'it was ripped of from' post-comment
2014-09-21T17:38:08Z drewc: s/of/off
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2014-09-21T17:41:42Z drewc: faheem: "Xerox did go to trial to protect the Star user interface. In 1989, after Apple sued Microsoft for copyright infringement of its Macintosh user interface in Windows, Xerox filed a similar lawsuit against Apple. " --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star
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2014-09-21T17:49:13Z Grue`: what's the best way to do lexicographic sort of sequences?
2014-09-21T17:49:53Z faheem: drewc: thanks for the link
2014-09-21T17:50:05Z Grue`: looks like theres a function for strings, but not for sequences of i.e. numbers
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2014-09-21T17:50:42Z drmeister_: That picture on the wikipedia article is heart-breaking in a way.  Those machines were so ahead of their time and now the Star machine is just another old computer.
2014-09-21T17:50:48Z Bike: Grue`: define a lexicographic sort function, use it as the predicate in sort.
2014-09-21T17:51:04Z drewc: Grue`: what do you mean? Sorry for my ignorance, but SORT is all I can think of
2014-09-21T17:51:06Z drmeister_: Oh well, keep looking forward.
2014-09-21T17:51:14Z drewc: NSORT is what it should be named BTW
2014-09-21T17:51:19Z Grue`: no, i just wonder if there's a common lib for this
2014-09-21T17:51:32Z Bike: why would there be? lexicographic comparison is a oneliner.
2014-09-21T17:51:40Z Bike: (every #'< s1 s2) or something
2014-09-21T17:51:50Z Grue`: not really
2014-09-21T17:52:12Z Bike: what's complicated about it?
2014-09-21T17:52:16Z ggole: < is numbers only
2014-09-21T17:52:35Z Grue`: every #'< is not a total ordering
2014-09-21T17:52:43Z drewc: how an numbers be lexicographic?
2014-09-21T17:52:49Z drewc: s/an/can
2014-09-21T17:52:54Z Bike: drewc: sequences of them.
2014-09-21T17:53:05Z Grue`: like string< but using < instead of char<
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2014-09-21T17:53:29Z Bike: some #'<? i don't remember the details, but it really shouldn't be at all difficult.
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2014-09-21T17:54:52Z drewc: Bike: define "lexicography" please. Excuse my ignorance.
2014-09-21T17:54:54Z faheem: Grue`: convert to string, then use regular string sort?
2014-09-21T17:55:07Z Grue`: now you're thinking with portals
2014-09-21T17:55:08Z Bike: drewc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicographical_order ?
2014-09-21T17:55:21Z faheem: dictionary order, basically
2014-09-21T17:55:30Z drewc: Bike: so eight comes before one?
2014-09-21T17:55:38Z Bike: It would in text, yeah.
2014-09-21T17:55:59Z Bike: but that's not what the question is.
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2014-09-21T17:56:41Z ggole: That would get you funny orderings, treating (1 "1" 2) and (1 1 "2") as equal elements.
2014-09-21T17:56:44Z drewc: I only know the dictionary definition, hence my announcement of ignorance ... I guess I care a wee bit much. Sorry.
2014-09-21T17:57:43Z faheem: ggole: what is the context?
2014-09-21T17:57:59Z ggole: "Convert to string and then sort"
2014-09-21T17:58:09Z faheem: i was assuming you just had numbers
2014-09-21T17:58:17Z faheem: ggole: um, yes, but why?
2014-09-21T17:58:29Z drewc is reading the wikipedia page ... "A lexicographical ordering may not coincide with conventional alphabetical ordering." ... k, unicode does exist...
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2014-09-21T17:58:45Z Grue`: yeah basically replace each number with a character with this charcode. since sbcl supports unicode, this will work for pretty large numbers
2014-09-21T17:58:46Z ggole: Why what? Grue` was asking how to do lexicographic comparison of sequences
2014-09-21T17:59:22Z faheem: ggole: sorry, addressing the wrong person
2014-09-21T17:59:35Z faheem: Grue`: context?
2014-09-21T17:59:45Z ggole: :)
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2014-09-21T18:05:07Z eugenee: threads are hard -.-
2014-09-21T18:05:47Z eugenee: Just when you think it all works, everything turns to shit
2014-09-21T18:06:10Z Bike: (sort seqs (lambda (s1 s2) (block nil (map nil (lambda (e1 e2) (cond ((= e1 e2)) ((< e1 e2) (return t)) ((> e1 e2) (return nil)))) s1 s2))))
2014-09-21T18:06:18Z Bike: sucks, but should work.
2014-09-21T18:06:47Z Bike: i'm sure there's some clever way to do it with every/etc. but i'm blanking.
2014-09-21T18:07:11Z drewc: eugenee: threads are not hard! interaction between them is, most certainly, difficult indeed :D
2014-09-21T18:07:49Z Bike: actually, you can eliminate the ((= e1 e2)) thing, so now it's only moderately terrible
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2014-09-21T18:08:03Z eugenee: drr
2014-09-21T18:08:07Z eugenee: e
2014-09-21T18:08:10Z eugenee: sry
2014-09-21T18:08:39Z drewc remembers using poll with araneida back in the day.... but that was because SBCL did not have threads.
2014-09-21T18:08:41Z eugenee: drewc: Trying to build erlang style processes in lisp (with mailboxes, and *drumroll* asynchronous exceptions)
2014-09-21T18:08:55Z Bike: then (defun lexicographic-predicate (compare< compare=) ...) or whatever and it's pretend functional programming, hooray
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2014-09-21T18:09:17Z eugenee: supposedly impossible
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2014-09-21T18:10:14Z drewc: eugenee: well ... first off disallow mutation/SET'ing of anything... then threads become somewhat trivial ... like in erlang for example.
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2014-09-21T18:10:35Z eugenee: two hours ago I thought I was set with some undefined areas, an hour ago I thought I had it working completely, no undefineds. Now I feel like nothing works.
2014-09-21T18:10:55Z eugenee: drewc: yeah... no :/
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2014-09-21T18:11:27Z drewc: as for conditions, well, dynamic and disruptive, and destructive!
2014-09-21T18:11:41Z eugenee: and suddenly JOIN-THREAD stopepd working reliably
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2014-09-21T18:12:41Z eugenee: I guess once I try another impl behaviour will be completely different
2014-09-21T18:13:25Z eugenee: is BORDEAUX-THREADS the worst MP situation ever? Or is it quite good once you interpolated the semanics from the source code
2014-09-21T18:13:44Z drewc: eugenee: especially if you are dealing with dynamically scoped things... like conditions/special variables...
2014-09-21T18:13:47Z eugenee: (the "API" leaves lotsa stuff open)
2014-09-21T18:14:43Z drewc: OR: ANSI CL does not have threads, so welcome to unstandardised fun!
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2014-09-21T18:16:45Z oGMo: eugenee: it's threads. it works and gives you threads, mutexes, and conditions. everything else is up to you ;) no worse than pthreads
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2014-09-21T18:17:46Z oGMo: but parallel programming with manual threads is about as fun as manual memory management, and there are other things that use BT and give you something nicer
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2014-09-21T18:26:57Z H4ns: one of these recommendable "other things" is lparallel
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2014-09-21T18:40:38Z dlowe: drewc: you could just (local-time:day-of-week (local-time:now))
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2014-09-21T18:42:15Z drewc: dlowe: yay! :)
2014-09-21T18:42:34Z jkaye: Anyone familiar with Hunchentoot sessions?
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2014-09-21T18:44:25Z wasamasa: we're only familiar with meta-questions
2014-09-21T18:44:47Z JokesOnYou77: Hi all.  I've been running a benchmark for a deeply nested operation and I found something strange, NCONC appears to be slower than CONS.  I know the lispworks compiler is good, but I dond't understand how CONS can be both faster and have less allocation.  Pastebin here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143803
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2014-09-21T18:46:28Z JokesOnYou77: Also, I do realize that the smart thing would be to not have an O(n^5) operation in the first place.  That said, my initial question still stands.
2014-09-21T18:47:02Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: CONS and NCONC are not at all equivalent operations.
2014-09-21T18:47:25Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: cons is very simple.  it adds one cell to the front of a list, returning the new front.
2014-09-21T18:47:36Z wasamasa: hmm, I thought NCONC destructively changes an existing list to contain another one as well
2014-09-21T18:47:46Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: nconc is much more complex as it needs to walk the all but the last list.
2014-09-21T18:47:48Z JokesOnYou77: H4ns, that's right.  NCONC is destructive and shouldn't allocate on the heap, hense my expectation of speed
2014-09-21T18:48:47Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: also, from looking at your code, i get the impression that in your nconc case, you're calling LIST more often than in the cons case, but i might be overlooking something.
2014-09-21T18:48:56Z JokesOnYou77: H4ns, I thought it was, in fact, not complex, and it simply changed the last ocns of the first argument to point to the first of the second
2014-09-21T18:49:12Z Bike: nconc has to iterate through a list first, that means jumping all around the heat
2014-09-21T18:49:13Z Bike: heap
2014-09-21T18:49:21Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: the complexity is understanding what the end of the first list is.
2014-09-21T18:49:37Z JokesOnYou77: OH! ofc!  It has to traverse the entire list.  :P
2014-09-21T18:49:39Z ggole: Destructive functions can allocate at the implementor's discretion
2014-09-21T18:49:39Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: as lisp lists are single-linked, the whole list needs to be walked to determine its end.
2014-09-21T18:49:46Z JokesOnYou77: That was silly of me then
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2014-09-21T18:50:26Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: i'd also advise not to worry about "speed" unless you really understand that you're worrying about the right things.
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2014-09-21T18:50:49Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: for example, if you're thinking "i need nconc", more often than not you really need to represent your data better.
2014-09-21T18:51:01Z H4ns: JokesOnYou77: nconc is, basically, a no-go-area.
2014-09-21T18:51:22Z Bike: it looks like it's only being used as an ill-advised replacement for cons here, though
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2014-09-21T18:51:43Z jkaye: Anyone who is familiar with Hunchentoot, my macro expansion: http://pastebin.com/nY2J975Z is failing because *REQUEST* is unbound. This is my first time working with sessions. What am I doing wrong?
2014-09-21T18:51:45Z Bike: and like H4ns said the nconc case is consing more due to the list calls, so i mean i don't know what you expected, here.
2014-09-21T18:52:06Z JokesOnYou77: H4ns, thank you for the warning.  I'm contemplating an algorithm's implementation for a very large set of data and trying to get some understanding of a real runtime as I think about it.
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2014-09-21T18:52:41Z JokesOnYou77: I wasn't sure what to expect, that's why I tested it and asked you guys :P
2014-09-21T18:52:43Z Bike: jkaye: you're running loginitem at macroexpansion time, which is maybe before the server starts?
2014-09-21T18:52:53Z JokesOnYou77: Also, hi Bike
2014-09-21T18:52:58Z Bike: hi
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2014-09-21T18:55:47Z jkaye: Bike: I think you're right. I guess I just can't use session information from within the macro then
2014-09-21T18:56:13Z Bike: jkaye: certainly not at macroexpansion time. i think with-html-output has some way to include function calls at runtime like you want.
2014-09-21T18:56:14Z H4ns: jkaye: you can, but you need to do it at the right point in time.
2014-09-21T18:56:51Z JokesOnYou77: Thank you both, H4ns and Bike, btw.
2014-09-21T18:56:56Z jkaye: H4ns: How would I go about doing that?
2014-09-21T18:58:00Z H4ns: jkaye: why do you have a comma in front of (loginitem) in the macro expansion?
2014-09-21T18:58:03Z Bike: weitz.de/cl-who/#syntax str or something i think
2014-09-21T18:58:05Z Grue`: jkaye: if you just write the same thing except in a function, without backtick and without comma before (loginitem), it will work
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2014-09-21T18:58:59Z Grue`: actually you can do in a macro too
2014-09-21T18:59:10Z Grue`: I'm going to copy paste from one of my old projects
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2014-09-21T19:00:12Z Grue`: jkaye: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143804
2014-09-21T19:00:25Z jkaye: I see. I should want the macro to expand into a function that calls loginitem at run time rather than compile time. Makes sense
2014-09-21T19:00:34Z Grue`: (use-header) and (use-footer) are functions that are inserted
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2014-09-21T19:00:58Z Grue`: and (use-css) and (use-js)
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2014-09-21T19:01:38Z eee-blt: ~
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2014-09-21T19:03:20Z Grue`: except what these functions do, they print their result to *standard-output*
2014-09-21T19:03:56Z Grue`: i.e. (defun use-css () (with-html-output (*standard-output*) (:link :href *css-file* :rel "stylesheet" :type "text/css")))
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2014-09-21T19:05:27Z jkaye: Cool. Looks like things are working, or compiling at least :)
2014-09-21T19:05:32Z jkaye: Thanks for the help everyone
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2014-09-21T19:15:32Z jkaye: Grue`: Any idea what would make my browser not show the entire output that's shown in the Hunchentoot console?
2014-09-21T19:17:21Z Grue`: I forgot, you need to use (with-html-output-to-string (*standard-output* nil :prologue t) ... (see annotation I added to the paste above)
2014-09-21T19:18:11Z Grue`: I don't really remember what it does and why
2014-09-21T19:18:24Z Grue`: but it definitely used to work at some point
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2014-09-21T19:19:05Z jkaye: I guess I'll just keep messing with it. In the console I see everything that I'd like to show up, but in the browser everything before my (str ..) is cut off
2014-09-21T19:20:21Z Grue`: that's because hunchentoot's view should return a string
2014-09-21T19:20:41Z Grue`: so the outermost w-h-o should be to-string
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2014-09-21T19:34:01Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Hey, I'm going to ask here in hope I have better luck. This might not be the right place, but I'm trying to set SBCL and SLIME up, but I haven't been able to get it to work. I've already gone through instructions at http://pchristensen.com/blog/articles/installing-sbcl-emacs-and-slime-on-windows-xp/ twice now. This is what I get when I M-x slime https://www.refheap.com/317d1092adaab6e1989d3f362 . This is my directory tree.
2014-09-21T19:34:01Z Petit_Dejeuner_: https://www.refheap.com/867608e3bcc983b5bae02d638 and I have (setenv "HOME" "C:/home/andrew") in my site-start.el file. Is there anything obvious I'm screwing up?
2014-09-21T19:34:12Z Petit_Dejeuner_: The REPL works, but it looks really weird.
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2014-09-21T19:36:36Z |3b|: Petit_Dejeuner_: try adding a / to end of path?
2014-09-21T19:36:58Z |3b|: actually, nevermind... looks like it found it
2014-09-21T19:37:05Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: anything mentionning "social issues" with respect to lisp is not worth its bit.  Just discount it.
2014-09-21T19:37:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-09-21T19:37:19Z Grue`: that path is really suspicious looking, almost like PATH envoronment variable
2014-09-21T19:38:13Z Grue`: honestly the only env variable you need is SBCL_HOME
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2014-09-21T19:38:34Z fortitude: I've found that having trailing backslashes on paths in env variables can cause issues sometimes
2014-09-21T19:38:40Z Grue`: and maybe path to SBCL in PATH
2014-09-21T19:38:41Z fortitude: like it escapes the semicolon
2014-09-21T19:38:47Z jkaye_: Grue`: Yup, changing to to-string did the trick
2014-09-21T19:38:48Z jkaye_: Thanks
2014-09-21T19:39:52Z |3b|: yeah, looks like your TEMP env var (or whatever it is on windows) is sprange
2014-09-21T19:39:55Z |3b|: *strange
2014-09-21T19:41:35Z pjb: quazimodo: the fact that the specification of the language is hard to change is a bonanza: it allows you to use code as old as the language. eg. https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang  but also just using my libraries written 15 years ago.
2014-09-21T19:41:43Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: the fact that the specification of the language is hard to change is a bonanza: it allows you to use code as old as the language. eg. https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang  but also just using my libraries written 15 years ago.
2014-09-21T19:41:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-09-21T19:42:57Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: and given that there are not that many lisp programmers to rewrite everything when a new version of the standard is issued, this is a very good thing.  Ask any python 3 programmer how often he has to go back to python 2 because libraries are not updated.
2014-09-21T19:42:57Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks.
2014-09-21T19:43:23Z resttime: oh i've got SLIME +SBCL up on windows
2014-09-21T19:43:31Z resttime: emacs etc.
2014-09-21T19:43:46Z resttime: I use HOME as an environment variable on windows
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2014-09-21T19:50:36Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Alright, I fixed up my PATH, and now the output isn't doublespaced https://www.refheap.com/ but the same error appears. I tried removing the trailing backslash from SBCL_HOME, but that didn't help. Current PATH and SBCL_HOME, https://www.refheap.com/8f22dd404e419c35be089d483 Why would the TEMP var mess things up? What would adding HOME do?
2014-09-21T19:50:51Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Whoops, linked to refheap homepage, https://www.refheap.com/5c73f8226bae2ddf46abc7bcf
2014-09-21T19:51:56Z Grue`: TEMP var is used to create temp files
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2014-09-21T19:54:12Z pjb: minion: memo for zighe: you might be interested by http://paste.lisp.org/display/139933
2014-09-21T19:54:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell zighe when he/she/it next speaks.
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2014-09-21T19:55:25Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Alright, so the temp variable was screwed up and for some reason had an old clisp file path in it. I probably accidently added that when I meant to add it to path.
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2014-09-21T19:56:34Z Petit_Dejeuner_: ...permission denied because the superflous semicolon confuses it, removed that, and... "Connected. Let the hacking commence!"
2014-09-21T19:56:53Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Thanks, you would not believe how side tracked I've been trying to get this working.
2014-09-21T19:57:46Z Petit_Dejeuner_: Last night I tried setting up an arch VM for emacs as a work around. (I know, that's terrible.)
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2014-09-21T20:08:17Z pjb: drmeister: as I see it, move semantics is a way to deal with difficulties with the way C++ manages memory, notably deallocation in the destructors.  When you have a garbage collector (and don't use finalizers to free memory) this is just useless a concept.
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2014-09-21T20:18:57Z devon: How would you collect sporadic output from a subprocess?
2014-09-21T20:20:16Z devon: It seems qITAb's INFERIOR-SHELL is synchronous only.
2014-09-21T20:21:47Z pjb: devon: do you know something about IPC?
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2014-09-21T20:29:35Z devon: I can't even spell IPC
2014-09-21T20:30:09Z oleo: inter process communication
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2014-09-21T20:30:29Z devon: I'm sure if I don't care about portability, there are easy ways to do it.
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2014-09-21T20:31:59Z oleo: i always thought that would be just message passing systems....
2014-09-21T20:32:11Z oleo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-process_communication
2014-09-21T20:32:28Z oleo: it is mixed....
2014-09-21T20:33:48Z devon: The string "LISP" does not even appear in that article.
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2014-09-21T20:40:26Z H4ns: devon: sbcl has an asynchronous shell interface
2014-09-21T20:41:14Z devon: I guess I could roll my own lisp interface that hides whether it's Windows IPC or Posix sockets under the hood.
2014-09-21T20:42:05Z H4ns: devon: oops, sorry.  i thought you wanted subprocess output
2014-09-21T20:42:24Z devon: yes, exactly what I want.
2014-09-21T20:42:43Z H4ns: devon: but windows ipc, sockets seem unrelated
2014-09-21T20:42:55Z H4ns: devon: if you want shell output, you're basically talking posix, right?
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2014-09-21T20:43:35Z devon: Yeah, it's easy to do SBCL-only, CCS-only, etc. code, I was wondering if there's something portable.
2014-09-21T20:43:36Z H4ns: devon: if that is what you want, look at http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Running-external-programs
2014-09-21T20:44:40Z H4ns: devon: maybe iolib has something for you.
2014-09-21T20:44:53Z |3b|: might also try uiop:run-program
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2014-09-21T20:45:18Z devon: Windows/Posix sockets don't sound so different to me but I've not tried the MicroSoft side yet.
2014-09-21T20:46:07Z H4ns: devon: windows has some posix support, but it does not have the same concepts of shells and pipes as true posix systems.
2014-09-21T20:46:52Z devon: That's the asdf:run-program that warns me not to use it for new code?
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2014-09-21T20:48:52Z devon: No doubt I could arrange for the processes to communicate via TCP loopback interface, firewall willing.
2014-09-21T20:49:00Z |3b| thinks uiop:run-program replaces asdf:run-program, don't remember any warning not to use it
2014-09-21T20:49:56Z H4ns: devon: that, or unix domain sockets, pipes.  there are so many options.
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2014-09-21T20:51:44Z devon: Somehow I don't expect to find unix domain sockets and pipes in MicroSoft but I could be wrong, here in the future.
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2014-09-21T20:53:17Z devon: My aim is to discover whether someone already wrote the multi-platform multi-lisp shim so I need not.
2014-09-21T20:54:50Z kristof: What exactly is there in common between windows style ipc and unix style ipc?
2014-09-21T20:55:36Z kristof: everything will be even more different once kdbus comes around
2014-09-21T20:55:50Z devon: The unix ipc bugs already bit me, can't wait to see the tooth marks from MicroSoft.
2014-09-21T20:57:27Z kristof: were they bugs in unix ipc or the usocket library? :O
2014-09-21T20:57:54Z devon: What they have in common is programs emitting and accepting data streams.  Something that basic should be an essential component of any programming system.
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2014-09-21T21:00:26Z devon: Also in common, a motley morass of past attempts that missed the mark in various ways.
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2014-09-21T21:02:23Z devon: |3b|: thanks for the tip, I'll try uiop:run-program
2014-09-21T21:03:03Z devon: Off to the races, see y'all in the future!
2014-09-21T21:05:10Z pjb: devon: the first IPC is writing files and reading files.
2014-09-21T21:05:24Z pjb: This works particularly well when you have synchronous subprocesses.
2014-09-21T21:05:34Z pjb: You just let the subprocess write a file, and when it's done, you read it.
2014-09-21T21:05:57Z pjb: Simple, works on all the systems of the world (apart perhaps iOS).
2014-09-21T21:11:06Z devon: Clearly I've been unclear.  The thing I'll find or make is (a) async or sync (b) multi-OS, e.g., posix & windows (c) multi-LISP, e.g., SBCL & CCL (d) quicklispable, e.g., now or after I write it.
2014-09-21T21:11:57Z devon: gotta run before the sun sets, thanks all!
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2014-09-21T22:25:55Z wooden: i'm doing ncurses development with cl-ncurses.  when i do cl-ncurses:initscr it uses the swank terminal.  this is fine.  but my getch loop only gets half the characters i type.  the other half seem to be going through into the swank window, leading to random 'unbound variable' errors popping up.  any idea how i can adjust stdin so my program gets all the characters and the swank session behind it gets none?
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2014-09-21T22:31:23Z Xach: wooden: interesting setup. did you connect to slime by starting swank manually?
2014-09-21T22:32:33Z wooden: Xach: yes.  i'm actually using slimv, which starts swank in a separate tmux window: sbcl --load /nfs/home/jlucas/ash-home/.vim/bundle/slimv/slime/start-swank.lisp
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2014-09-21T22:34:51Z Xach: oh
2014-09-21T22:36:41Z wooden: Xach: i guess it's a bit like this -- http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Common_Lisp#Can_I_use_Curses_on_Lisp.3F -- except i didn't have to *do* anything to get it to behave this way.  it's just the way slimv (slime for vim) works.
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2014-09-21T22:58:14Z pillton: minion: memo for devon: There is BASIC-BINARY-IPC. It supports IPv4 and local sockets on posix and windows platforms.
2014-09-21T22:58:14Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell devon when he/she/it next speaks.
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