2014-09-19T00:00:52Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:01:58Z Elench` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:05:08Z faheem__1: it seems dotimes won't start from a value higher than 0. i wonder why. seems a natural thing to do 2014-09-19T00:05:41Z faheem__1: like Python's range. 2014-09-19T00:05:57Z Elench quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:06:19Z Elench` is now known as Elench 2014-09-19T00:07:05Z faheem__1: oh, well. loop it is 2014-09-19T00:08:16Z paroneay` is now known as aproneayea 2014-09-19T00:08:22Z aproneayea is now known as paroneayea 2014-09-19T00:08:37Z |3b| debugs a performance problem in my GL program from slime displayed inside the GL program 2014-09-19T00:09:02Z |3b|: functions that redefine themselves are another case where #' is bad :/ 2014-09-19T00:10:40Z |3b| can also run the debugger inside the GL program being debugged now http://3bb.cc/tmp/debug-in-scene.png 2014-09-19T00:11:08Z |3b|: (whole thing is horribly fragile though, not sure if it can be made actually useful or not) 2014-09-19T00:11:21Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:11:38Z faheem__1: why does 1+, 1- exist, anyway? 2014-09-19T00:11:54Z |3b|: because someone thought it would be convenient and/or more readable? 2014-09-19T00:12:14Z faheem__1: |3b|: i thought there were all decisions made by committee? 2014-09-19T00:12:17Z |3b|: or possibly it mapped to some specific hardware facility long ago 2014-09-19T00:12:22Z faheem__1: ok 2014-09-19T00:12:39Z |3b|: many of the committee's decisions were about how to unify previous dialects 2014-09-19T00:13:05Z faheem__1: from my reading, a lot of things were done for backward compatability with now-dead lisps. 2014-09-19T00:13:13Z faheem__1: so, living history, i guess 2014-09-19T00:13:31Z faheem__1: kind of like genetics 2014-09-19T00:13:56Z |3b|: also, the standard made by committee was based on the "common lisp" from the book "common lisp the language" 2014-09-19T00:14:03Z faheem__1: where you can find traces of long dead organisms in the genetic code of modern organisms. 2014-09-19T00:14:19Z faheem__1: |3b|: right, the steele book 2014-09-19T00:18:29Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:19:40Z faheem__1: actually C/C++ has ++, --, but i guess that isn't quite the same. 2014-09-19T00:19:57Z faheem__1: and i think the C/C++ version may exist for performance issues 2014-09-19T00:20:37Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T00:22:31Z PuercoPop: faheem__1: (info "elisp") and go to display-> buttons for example. Emacs has functionality to define 'in buffer' widgets a la customize 2014-09-19T00:22:56Z PuercoPop: and it slime doesn't use them because it precludes them as I understand 2014-09-19T00:23:32Z jlongste` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:24:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:25:28Z cheryllium_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:25:53Z faheem__1: PuercoPop: precludes? don't follow 2014-09-19T00:27:14Z varjag_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-09-19T00:27:15Z cheryllium quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:27:23Z cheryllium_ is now known as cheryllium 2014-09-19T00:27:33Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-19T00:28:03Z theos joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:28:43Z jleija joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:29:16Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:30:01Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T00:32:33Z MoALTz_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:34:47Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:35:24Z MoALTz__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:35:45Z MoALTz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:37:45Z wizzo joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:39:09Z MoALTz_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:39:53Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:39:56Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:45:45Z Hydan quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2014-09-19T00:46:26Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:47:29Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T00:47:29Z Bicyclidine quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T00:48:27Z Bike_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T00:55:16Z Bazzie quit (Quit: lel) 2014-09-19T01:02:13Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:02:47Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-19T01:04:00Z fisxoj joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:04:28Z fisxoj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T01:07:25Z pillton: I can't take this any longer. Anyone know of a pretty printer that generates C code from s-expressions? 2014-09-19T01:08:35Z vanila: pillton, I've started to write such a thing in scheme 2014-09-19T01:09:16Z Mr-Potter joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:09:21Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/111253 2014-09-19T01:09:23Z TheMesquito joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:09:23Z vanila: here is an example 2014-09-19T01:10:07Z pillton: Cool. 2014-09-19T01:10:54Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:11:22Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:13:46Z TheMesquito left #lisp 2014-09-19T01:14:22Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T01:16:07Z Hydan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T01:18:14Z macdice` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:21:15Z macdice quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T01:21:50Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:27:23Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:38:11Z vanila: well that was stupid 2014-09-19T01:38:21Z vanila: I just reported the spambot to #freenode, apparently they don't care 2014-09-19T01:39:18Z PuercoPop: faheem__1: I mean that slime is from before emacs had that api 2014-09-19T01:39:55Z echo-area joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:40:50Z theethicalegoist joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:41:02Z joneshf-laptop_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:41:16Z joneshf-laptop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T01:44:56Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-09-19T01:51:07Z faheem__1: PuercoPop: i see. 2014-09-19T01:56:13Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:00:30Z Mr-Potter quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T02:04:02Z markov` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:04:50Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:05:20Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:05:54Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:09:52Z work_op: you guys, screamer is really cool 2014-09-19T02:11:52Z ericmathison quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:12:35Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T02:13:43Z _tca: yea 2014-09-19T02:15:40Z _tca: how good is it's implementation though? source code is too big and unorganized for me to inspect so i just assume not very good 2014-09-19T02:16:03Z Bike_: it's old. 2014-09-19T02:16:05Z Bike_ is now known as Bicyclidine 2014-09-19T02:16:18Z Bicyclidine: i think it's reasonably optimized, but it's crufty, sourcewise. 2014-09-19T02:17:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hey, I'm trying to go through http://lispwebtales.ppenev.com/chap04.html#leanpub-auto-html-generation-and-templating , but when I try to "parse" the template I get an error. "[Condition of type ESRAP::SIMPLE-ESRAP-ERROR]" My template looks like this. http://paste.lisp.org/display/143771 I'm not sure what's wrong. I'm using Clozure Common Lisp if it matters. 2014-09-19T02:17:33Z pjb: faheem__1: it is known since 32 years why dotimes shall not start from anything else than 0! https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD08xx/EWD831.html 2014-09-19T02:18:28Z pjb: faheem__1: 1+ and 1- exist for the same reason Pascal as succ and pred. 2014-09-19T02:18:34Z pjb: s/as/has/ 2014-09-19T02:18:55Z work_op: _tca its p rough 2014-09-19T02:19:29Z Bicyclidine: "the subsequence of natural numbers 2, 3, ..., 12" might be nice to iterate over 2014-09-19T02:20:32Z djuber joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:27:16Z gendl: mkcl doesn’t work with Slime, does it? 2014-09-19T02:30:30Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:33:32Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:34:05Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:35:12Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:36:07Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:36:50Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:40:10Z jlongste` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:51:32Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:54:09Z gendl: ok, i see mkcl has a slime in its contrib/ directory, will play around with it... 2014-09-19T02:55:19Z kpreid joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:55:24Z modula joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:56:21Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:56:21Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2014-09-19T02:58:01Z zeebrah joined #lisp 2014-09-19T02:58:30Z zeebrah: I have a spare, new, copy of PCL I would like to sell. Anyone interested please PM. 2014-09-19T02:58:31Z bgs100 quit (Quit: bgs100) 2014-09-19T02:58:48Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T02:58:51Z jlongste` is now known as jlongster 2014-09-19T03:00:45Z work_op: PCL? get on that On Lisp grind, yo 2014-09-19T03:02:10Z zeebrah: Practical Common Lisp - the book 2014-09-19T03:03:09Z work_op: i know what it is 2014-09-19T03:03:22Z work_op: hence my ref to On Lisp... kinda ob 2014-09-19T03:03:25Z work_op: obv 2014-09-19T03:04:35Z zeebrah: On Lisp isn't usually pushed here because people here dislike PG for some reason (at least that was my experience years ago..) 2014-09-19T03:06:29Z work_op: yeah, dickriders like because Seibel is dumb enough to use #lisp as a tagline for his book 2014-09-19T03:07:08Z zeebrah: work_op: haha, i mean PCL is a nice book but yeah :) 2014-09-19T03:09:22Z gingerale joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:09:56Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:11:40Z Bazzie joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:12:48Z work_op: http://goo.gl/AHqXrm pic of PG speaking somewhere, your average #lisp-er is in front row on the left side 2014-09-19T03:13:42Z work_op: note the haircut and posture 2014-09-19T03:18:07Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:18:49Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T03:19:43Z harish joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:19:46Z stardiviner quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T03:21:21Z harish quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T03:22:47Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T03:22:58Z Kabaka quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-19T03:29:22Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:29:38Z MrWoohoo quit (Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]) 2014-09-19T03:30:38Z sheilong quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-09-19T03:33:20Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:33:52Z theos: imo people hate PG because he is the only one who could make money with lisp 2014-09-19T03:34:54Z theos: and zopzoo is a spam bot sending pms to weird links 2014-09-19T03:34:55Z pjb: theos: perhaps also a little because he left Common Lisp to make arc. Like Norvig left Common Lisp to program in Python and be hired by google. 2014-09-19T03:35:24Z Kabaka joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:35:42Z theos: pjb PG used to love CL. donno what happened later on. 2014-09-19T03:37:31Z theos: in ACL, he talks about how awesome CL is after every 3 sentences 2014-09-19T03:37:34Z pjb: On ycombinator.com, there's an Ask PG page or something… 2014-09-19T03:40:02Z markov` quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T03:42:44Z White_Flame: while CL is likely the best language out there, no language can be everything to everybody, so you'll eventually want to start building other things from scratch 2014-09-19T03:42:57Z cheryllium: do common lispers really dislike PG? 2014-09-19T03:43:01Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:43:52Z beach joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:44:01Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2014-09-19T03:44:21Z cheryllium: good morning beach 2014-09-19T03:44:26Z zeebrah: cheryllium: there is an element of brutus's scorning the base degrees with which they did ascend kinda thing. On both sides, PG who turned on CL after it made him somebody (at least in the lisp community) and those who learned lisp from PG but then decided he wasn't cool enough to recommend to newbies 2014-09-19T03:44:33Z theos: hey beach 2014-09-19T03:46:56Z pjb: cheryllium: no, not really. 2014-09-19T03:47:10Z cheryllium: :/ 2014-09-19T03:47:32Z beach: Hey pjb. Thanks for your insight wrt SETQ and symbol macros. 2014-09-19T03:47:43Z pjb: cheryllium: he's basically a role model for all of us: writing a program in Common Lisp, sell it for hundreds of millions, retire in the Bahamas or Caribeans. 2014-09-19T03:48:04Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T03:48:13Z wooden: what's the difference (if any) between the "plist" that every symbol has which you access with #'get, and the "plist" you can create like (list :a 1 :b 2) which you access with #'getf. i can't access the latter with #'get. why? how are these different? 2014-09-19T03:48:14Z pjb: beach: it was late, you already had it contested :-/ But that's what you get from backlog reading. 2014-09-19T03:48:28Z phao quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T03:48:41Z pjb: beach: clhs reading requires some specific skills :-) 2014-09-19T03:48:49Z beach: pjb: Still, it's good to see other people's insight as well. 2014-09-19T03:48:53Z cheryllium: I don't know much about him. I still consider myself pretty new to the community 2014-09-19T03:49:19Z theos: cheryllium read Ansi Common Lisp then 2014-09-19T03:49:23Z White_Flame: wooden: from CLHS's GET entry: (get x y) == (getf (symbol-plist x) y) 2014-09-19T03:50:13Z cheryllium: theos: this? need to buy it? http://www.paulgraham.com/acl.html 2014-09-19T03:51:01Z theos: cheryllium yes. its not "free" online. 2014-09-19T03:51:14Z cheryllium: okay, I will purchase and read it if you think it's a good idea 2014-09-19T03:51:24Z cheryllium: wait, paul graham made y combinator? i had no idea. 2014-09-19T03:52:05Z beach: cheryllium: I think it's a reasonable book, but many people don't like it because his Lisp is not perfectly idiomatic. 2014-09-19T03:52:18Z theos: it is a very good idea imo. Then read On Lisp and then Let Over Lambda. 2014-09-19T03:52:22Z pjb: wooden: the suffix "f" to operators such as incf, setf and getf, means "place". get works with a symbol (-plist), like set works with a symbol (-value). But getf works with a property list stored in a place, like setf works with a place. 2014-09-19T03:52:58Z pjb: cheryllium: yes, with the money yahoo gave him for his Common Lisp software, ViaWeb. 2014-09-19T03:53:31Z pjb: There's no idiomatic lisp. Lisp is the anti-idiomatic language by excelence. 2014-09-19T03:53:39Z wooden: White_Flame: so, is the definition of a plist just a list that contains alternating keys and values, and it's the #'get and #'getf find the 'key' and return the next cell which is assumed to be the 'value'? 2014-09-19T03:54:04Z theos: Lisp is what you make it! 2014-09-19T03:54:13Z pjb: wooden: yes. 2014-09-19T03:54:37Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T03:54:43Z wooden: pjb: thank you :D 2014-09-19T03:55:33Z madrik joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:55:40Z White_Flame: wooden: yes, get & getf simply look in different places (a symbol's plist, vs a given plist place) 2014-09-19T03:55:45Z beach: pjb: En plaine forme, je vois! :) 2014-09-19T03:55:51Z cheryllium quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T03:56:10Z drmeiste_: beach: How are things going? 2014-09-19T03:56:14Z White_Flame: the other standard key/value list is an a-list, ((key . value) (key . value)...) 2014-09-19T03:56:30Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2014-09-19T03:56:35Z White_Flame: which #'assoc and friends operate with 2014-09-19T03:56:49Z beach: drmeist__: Hard to say. I am not awake yet. Today, I shall have to start by undoing an incorrect modification I did yesterday to symbol macros. 2014-09-19T03:57:05Z klltkr[Yes] quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-19T03:57:20Z beach: drmeist__: Congratulations to getting Clasp out there, by the way. 2014-09-19T03:57:33Z wooden: White_Flame: thank you 2014-09-19T03:57:46Z drmeiste_ is now known as drmeister 2014-09-19T03:58:12Z drmeister: beach: It's not out yet. I'm going to spend the weekend cleaning things up and put it up next week. 2014-09-19T03:58:28Z zacts: what is Clasp? 2014-09-19T03:58:37Z drmeister: But I got full clearance and language. Oh yeah. I have to stick the language into the head of every source file. 2014-09-19T03:58:44Z beach: drmeister: Oh, OK. But you got the go-ahead from IP? 2014-09-19T03:58:49Z drmeister: Yes. 2014-09-19T03:59:11Z drmeister: A day late and a dollar short though. My abstract for the LLVM dev meeting got turned down :-( 2014-09-19T03:59:32Z drmeister: That's how it goes. 2014-09-19T03:59:39Z beach: I saw that in the logs. Sorry to hear that. 2014-09-19T03:59:51Z beach: Send it to some other venue. 2014-09-19T04:00:04Z White_Flame: zacts: drmeister's new C++ & LLVM-based CL implementation 2014-09-19T04:00:13Z zacts: oh cool! 2014-09-19T04:00:16Z drmeister: zacts: What White-Flame said. 2014-09-19T04:00:37Z drmeister: I'm thinking of exposing the Unreal Engine with some undergrads. 2014-09-19T04:00:49Z drmeister: That should get peoples attention. 2014-09-19T04:00:50Z beach: drmeister: I recommend you do /msg minion: add "Clasp" as: .... 2014-09-19T04:01:10Z beach: drmeister: Then you can say "minion: please tell zacts about Clasp." 2014-09-19T04:01:19Z beach: So you don't have to repeat it each time. 2014-09-19T04:01:22Z beach: Like this: 2014-09-19T04:01:30Z zacts: drmeister: do you have a link or homepage up yet? 2014-09-19T04:01:34Z beach: minion: please tell drmeister about Cleavir. 2014-09-19T04:01:35Z minion: drmeister: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future 2014-09-19T04:01:52Z kbtr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T04:02:04Z drmeister: Is that adding terms? 2014-09-19T04:02:14Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-09-19T04:02:20Z Bicyclidine: it's just the first line of the cliki entry, i think? 2014-09-19T04:02:24Z beach: Yes. Try /msg minion help adding terms. 2014-09-19T04:02:40Z Bicyclidine: or not. 2014-09-19T04:02:44Z beach: Bicyclidine: By default, yes. But you can do what you want. 2014-09-19T04:02:45Z kbtr joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:03:27Z cheryllium: is ycombinator/hacker news written with arc? 2014-09-19T04:03:56Z drmeister: minion: please tell drmeister about Clasp 2014-09-19T04:03:56Z minion: drmeister: Clasp: An implementation of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++ and uses LLVM to generate native code 2014-09-19T04:04:32Z beach: That worked. 2014-09-19T04:04:58Z drmeister: zacts: Here's the announcement - I'm still working on it: http://drmeister.wordpress.com 2014-09-19T04:05:16Z Bicyclidine: you made a wordpress just for the announcement? 2014-09-19T04:05:35Z Bicyclidine: are you going to keep up with it later? once you've taken over the east coast with nanomachines, say, it'd be nice to have updates on htat 2014-09-19T04:06:01Z jlongster joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:06:03Z yacks quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T04:06:06Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: No - I intend to leave my self-imposed exile and grace the interwebs with my thoughts. 2014-09-19T04:06:08Z jusss quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-19T04:06:21Z pjb: cheryllium: yes. 2014-09-19T04:07:03Z zacts: thanks 2014-09-19T04:08:27Z drmeister: How is Cleavir coming along? Are you ready to let me start messing with it? 2014-09-19T04:08:48Z beach: Not yet. 2014-09-19T04:08:52Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T04:08:53Z drmeister: No problem. 2014-09-19T04:09:01Z beach: I am still writing tests for minimal compilation. 2014-09-19T04:09:09Z beach: Then I have to work on AST generation. 2014-09-19T04:09:19Z beach: I have another week or so of work on that. 2014-09-19T04:09:32Z beach: I also need to figure out how to write tests for the AST stuff. 2014-09-19T04:10:12Z drmeister: I'm working on chemistry and I ran into problems with old Bison code - Bison is hostile to moving garbage collection. 2014-09-19T04:10:38Z beach: Bison the parser generator? 2014-09-19T04:10:44Z drmeister: Yes. 2014-09-19T04:11:01Z beach: I would say most C code is hostile that way. 2014-09-19T04:11:14Z vanila: hi beach good luck with the compiler! 2014-09-19T04:11:23Z beach: vanila: Thanks. 2014-09-19T04:11:33Z vanila: I want to write tests for AST things too 2014-09-19T04:11:58Z vanila: I realized that I have to write an equality test that looks past the names of variables 2014-09-19T04:12:04Z vanila: like (lambda (x) x) = (lambda (y) y 2014-09-19T04:12:22Z drmeister: I wrote several parsers to read different file formats, I was trying to incorporate them into Clasp but the yyvalue is a union and it contained pointers that won't work with the MPS garbage collector (sigh). I've got to figure some way around that or implement the parser in Common Lisp. 2014-09-19T04:12:38Z zacts: so clasp isn't a fully standard common lisp? 2014-09-19T04:12:44Z beach: vanila: Equality of functions is a tricky thing. 2014-09-19T04:12:50Z zacts: Clasp 2014-09-19T04:12:57Z drmeister: zacts: Not yet. But differences from the standard are considered bugs. 2014-09-19T04:12:58Z zacts: (sorry, forgot the caps) 2014-09-19T04:13:29Z drmeister: Clasp is missing some functions like the bit twiddling functions. 2014-09-19T04:13:32Z beach: drmeister: You can choose the table code that Bison uses. 2014-09-19T04:13:51Z drmeister: beach: What do you mean? 2014-09-19T04:14:09Z vanila: What is minimal compilation? 2014-09-19T04:14:13Z beach: drmeister: Bison consists of a table generator and a template to fill in. The template can be replaced. 2014-09-19T04:14:50Z beach: clhs 3.2.2.2 2014-09-19T04:14:50Z specbot: Minimal Compilation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm 2014-09-19T04:14:56Z beach: vanila: ^ 2014-09-19T04:15:57Z drmeister: What is the template? The $$ variable? 2014-09-19T04:16:14Z TDog joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:16:25Z vanila: I see! 2014-09-19T04:16:45Z vanila: I just finished implementing my macro system which depends on a simple interpreter 2014-09-19T04:17:00Z beach: drmeister: There is an entire file containing C code. That's the template. Some symbols in that file are replaced by what the table generator generates. 2014-09-19T04:17:08Z vanila: and then added support to let macros make use of previous macros 2014-09-19T04:17:16Z drmeister: This is way off topic: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/11e601691e757796b5c1 2014-09-19T04:17:29Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/d0680b2cdc60289c4aa4 2014-09-19T04:18:20Z beach: vanila: That's typically how the compilation environment is used. 2014-09-19T04:18:43Z vanila: It will be interesting to develop new macro systems using the primitive one 2014-09-19T04:18:54Z vanila: but I really like what pjb told me, the most important thing is good error messages 2014-09-19T04:19:01Z drmeister: This is a parser and the $$ union that it requires. The union contains template classes Hold that are pointers to GC managed objects. The MPS can't fix these pointers because it doesn't know if the union contains a pointer or an integer (ival) or whatever. 2014-09-19T04:19:01Z vanila: I need to focus on that a bit 2014-09-19T04:19:06Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:19:19Z pjb: vanila: well, this is not exactly what I said, but it is an important part indeed. 2014-09-19T04:19:39Z pjb: If you have to have error messages, better make them clear. (not like C++ template error messages…) 2014-09-19T04:19:53Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: make it a tagged union? 2014-09-19T04:20:14Z vanila: yeah sorry pjb ! I just thought a bit about what you said and I think that's a really important thing I wasn't thinking about much 2014-09-19T04:20:34Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: I see. 2014-09-19T04:21:15Z drmeister: I think the problem is I don't know where Bison stores them. If it puts them on the heap with "new" then I have a problem. If they are just stored on the stack then they aren't a problem. 2014-09-19T04:21:46Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-19T04:21:51Z drmeister: MPS is conservative on the stack and will figure out if they contain pointers or not. 2014-09-19T04:21:55Z pjb: vanila: for example, providing a good debugger is as important or more than good error messages. 2014-09-19T04:22:30Z Bicyclidine: typedef struct { int tag; gaff_STypeParser data; } gaff_STypeParserTagged; enum { CARR, IVAL, ANTECHAMBER_ROOT, something something 2014-09-19T04:22:35Z pjb: vanila: if you can provide advanced debugging tools, like debugging in time, or like an AI that debugs programs automatically (on the cloud for efficiency), then so much the better. 2014-09-19T04:23:16Z pjb: vanila: somebody implemented a cloud-based AI debugger that works for $8 per bug, which is less than human programmers! (but not for lisp, it wasn't their priority). 2014-09-19T04:23:32Z vanila: haha, that's crazy 2014-09-19T04:24:14Z theos: its a nice idea 2014-09-19T04:24:29Z theos: we should make that AI debugger in lisp for lisp 2014-09-19T04:27:40Z pjb: yes. Given that there were already AI debuggers in lisp for lisp, but before Common Lisp… 2014-09-19T04:27:52Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: That's a good idea. Treat it like any other GC managed value. 2014-09-19T04:28:10Z drmeister: I'll just have to figure out how it's allocated stack or heap. 2014-09-19T04:28:13Z pjb: cf. PHENARETE and other works like it. 2014-09-19T04:28:46Z Bicyclidine: i don't understand why the allocation is important 2014-09-19T04:30:58Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:30:59Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:31:14Z drmeister: If they "new" them on the heap then MPS will not see them and not update them when their pointee moves. 2014-09-19T04:31:54Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T04:32:02Z vinleod quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T04:32:14Z vinleod_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:32:33Z yacks quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T04:32:48Z cheryllium quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 32.0.2/20140917194002]) 2014-09-19T04:35:10Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: the consequences are unspecified) 2014-09-19T04:36:06Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:36:37Z drmeister: I'm following beach's advice and looking at the generated tables. 2014-09-19T04:37:16Z beach: As I recall, they are pretty standard LALR(1) tables. 2014-09-19T04:37:56Z beach: drmeister: What is it that you are parsing? 2014-09-19T04:38:55Z drmeister: Esoteric data files for molecular mechanics code. It contains rules to assign atom types. 2014-09-19T04:39:45Z beach: It might not be worthwhile fighting with Bison. It might be better to use a CL library for parser generation. 2014-09-19T04:43:32Z oGMo: is there actually a good/free one for CL? 2014-09-19T04:43:41Z pjb: several. 2014-09-19T04:43:41Z pjb: 2014-09-19T04:43:53Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:43:53Z pjb: I've used Zebu. There's also cl-lalr, and several others. 2014-09-19T04:44:04Z oGMo: and by free i mean more BSD and less GPL 2014-09-19T04:44:07Z beach: I have heard the name "esrap" several times. 2014-09-19T04:44:47Z oGMo: when i searched everything was semi-deficient 2014-09-19T04:45:13Z beach: drmeister: I know this is not going to happen, but I can't stop thinking about the possibility if writing a program to translate your 85k lines of C++ to CL. 2014-09-19T04:45:22Z pjb: But everything is always semi-deficient! That's why you're provided open source libraries, so that you may improve them to your specs! 2014-09-19T04:45:53Z oGMo: i have better things to do than write a lalr parser generator :P 2014-09-19T04:46:06Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T04:46:14Z oGMo: especially since for most things in "just" CL sexps work great anyway 2014-09-19T04:46:21Z beach: oGMo: Oh, yes. Don't use LALR. That's 20th century technology. 2014-09-19T04:46:24Z pjb: beach: that's quite possible (I dream about doing it for all the popular programming languages). But it would require doing much more non-lisp than I'd like :-) 2014-09-19T04:46:53Z beach: pjb: I know what you mean. 2014-09-19T04:46:57Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:47:09Z oGMo: beach: not really :p 2014-09-19T04:47:22Z beach: oGMo: ? 2014-09-19T04:47:29Z oGMo: i have yet to see anything parse as much as lalr and as efficiently 2014-09-19T04:47:32Z nostoi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T04:47:39Z beach: pjb: But again, I am not thinking of C++ in general; I don't know how to do that. Just drmeister's code base. 2014-09-19T04:47:56Z pjb: Converting the C code in GNU emacs to Common Lisp takes an increasing priority for me. If I won the loto, I'd start by that project. 2014-09-19T04:48:02Z oGMo: esrap appears to just be a PEG 2014-09-19T04:48:12Z beach: pjb: Yes, very nice project! 2014-09-19T04:48:22Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T04:48:53Z beach: oGMo: True, if you need very high performance, then LALR is still good. On the other hand, that kind of performance is rarely needed these days. 2014-09-19T04:49:15Z beach: ... and LALR has some nasty problems too. 2014-09-19T04:50:09Z oGMo: it's not primarily performance so much as fewer grammars being ambiguous, 2014-09-19T04:50:46Z oGMo: and being able to parse them with reasonable time and memory consumption (which is performance, but still important) 2014-09-19T04:51:04Z beach: oGMo: Oh, I am thinking of parser technology that is more general than LALR, and so able to handle ambiguities too. 2014-09-19T04:52:19Z vinleod_ is now known as vinleod 2014-09-19T04:52:20Z beach: GLR with 0 look-ahead would be nice. Then one can mix languages more easily. 2014-09-19T04:52:46Z beach: The look-ahead aspect of LALR really makes it hard to mix languages. 2014-09-19T04:54:02Z madrik: What is a good text on compilers that is not the Dragon Book? 2014-09-19T04:54:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T04:54:31Z beach: madrik: The book by Muchnick is reasonable. 2014-09-19T04:54:47Z beach: madrik: It is about the important aspects of compiler writing; not about parsing. 2014-09-19T04:55:04Z beach: madrik: I hear Andy Appel's books are good to. I have yet to read them. 2014-09-19T04:55:21Z beach: madrik: And there is LiSP for the Lisp family languages, of course. 2014-09-19T04:56:25Z beach: A warning about Muchnick's book though. His code looks more like Fortran than anything else. I use his book to get an idea of the problem, then I look up the algorithms in research papers. 2014-09-19T04:56:34Z madrik: I saw an Appel in my (now defunct) local bookstore. Looked nice. 2014-09-19T04:57:18Z madrik: Dragon was a touch too much for me when I tried studying it. 2014-09-19T04:58:07Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T04:59:21Z beach: Plus, since Muchnick's book was published, there has been some progress made. I therefore recommend doing a forward citation search to get more recent stuff. 2014-09-19T04:59:38Z beach: The ACM digital library works well for that. 2014-09-19T04:59:52Z leo2007 quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1) 2014-09-19T04:59:53Z madrik: Thanks for the pointer 2014-09-19T05:00:02Z beach: madrik: Anytime! 2014-09-19T05:00:26Z beach: madrik: What aspect of compiler technology are you interested in? 2014-09-19T05:00:40Z madrik: The basics, really. 2014-09-19T05:00:44Z mingvs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T05:01:00Z madrik: I could not get much out of Dragon when I had to use it for my college 2014-09-19T05:01:05Z madrik: Ideally, what should I have known before tackling Dragon? 2014-09-19T05:01:15Z beach: madrik: I am asking because my theoretician colleagues think "compiler" means "parser". 2014-09-19T05:01:34Z madrik: heh 2014-09-19T05:01:51Z beach: madrik: To me, parsing is not part of compiler technology, so I wanted to make sure that that is not what you are after. 2014-09-19T05:02:01Z leo2007 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:02:18Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:02:52Z vanila: madrik, Are you writing a compiler? 2014-09-19T05:03:10Z madrik: no 2014-09-19T05:03:23Z madrik: brb. taking out the trash. 2014-09-19T05:03:31Z Vivitron` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T05:03:48Z Vivitron` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:06:22Z madrik: back 2014-09-19T05:07:07Z madrik: I once tried reading /The Unix Programming Environment/ with its discussion of lex and yacc 2014-09-19T05:07:17Z ericmathison joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:07:23Z madrik: Even with sheer force of will, I could not get very far. 2014-09-19T05:07:41Z madrik: With the calculator, that is. 2014-09-19T05:07:44Z vanila: Appel's compiling with continuations is really interesting 2014-09-19T05:08:02Z madrik: vanila: there are three of them, right? 2014-09-19T05:08:06Z vanila: and Marc Feeley did a good talk that gave a quick overview on how to compile with continuations 2014-09-19T05:08:06Z madrik: Java, C, and ML? 2014-09-19T05:08:15Z vanila: hm 2014-09-19T05:08:55Z vanila: those 3 are "Modern Compiler Implementation", I meant "Compiling with Continuations" 2014-09-19T05:09:08Z madrik: vanila: sorry, then. 2014-09-19T05:09:27Z yeticry quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:09:34Z vanila: Guy Steele's thesis describes how he wrote the RABBIT compiler which is interesting 2014-09-19T05:10:36Z vanila: I've been finding good moderna resources on writing compilers very hard to find though - like beach said it's mostly all about parsing 2014-09-19T05:11:05Z mingvs joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:11:33Z madrik: I read somewhere recently that parsing is now a solved problem. 2014-09-19T05:11:42Z madrik: That there was no need to study it anymore 2014-09-19T05:11:53Z yeticry joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:11:56Z beach: I am writing a book about compiler technology, but I am busy with other stuff, so it will take some time to finish. 2014-09-19T05:12:24Z vanila: beach, that sounds really interesting! I';ll look forward to hearing about it in future 2014-09-19T05:12:43Z beach: Thanks. Don't hold your breath, though. 2014-09-19T05:13:46Z vanila: oh yeah and L.I.S.P has been recommend a bunch here 2014-09-19T05:13:53Z vanila: i havent fully read it but i looks good 2014-09-19T05:14:12Z beach: It's a great book. 2014-09-19T05:14:31Z beach: The language in the English translation is beautiful! :) 2014-09-19T05:15:09Z beach: He must have had a very talented translator. 2014-09-19T05:15:52Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:16:06Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:16:59Z theethicalegoist quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T05:19:39Z work_op: madrik those two lines about parsing are gold 2014-09-19T05:21:22Z madrik: work_op: I believe I read something to that effect on reddit or slashdot 2014-09-19T05:21:24Z theos joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:21:39Z madrik: I do not know how true it is 2014-09-19T05:21:52Z work_op: its not 2014-09-19T05:21:57Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:22:28Z work_op: syntax is fundamentally turing complete 2014-09-19T05:22:42Z work_op: the way i see it, thats the driving force of all metaprogramming 2014-09-19T05:23:24Z common-lisper joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:23:46Z vanila: I wonder ifyou could write a whole compiler as a parser 2014-09-19T05:24:06Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:24:11Z madrik: vanila: what would that even mean? 2014-09-19T05:24:31Z work_op: ^ 2014-09-19T05:24:49Z Bike: probably a single-pass, like some ancient history forth compilers 2014-09-19T05:25:09Z vanila: literally a parser 2014-09-19T05:25:10Z _tca: yea you can vanila 2014-09-19T05:25:18Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2014-09-19T05:25:21Z madrik: ah 2014-09-19T05:27:02Z madrik: work_op: could you elaborate on your view of metaprogramming? 2014-09-19T05:27:03Z _tca: http://tinlizzie.org/ometa/ 2014-09-19T05:27:53Z kcj joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:27:57Z vanila: woah 2014-09-19T05:28:20Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:28:26Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:28:33Z work_op: i was just mentioning that metaprogramming is a way to extend syntax in a way that acts on data. so in lisp its AST -> AST 2014-09-19T05:28:40Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:29:31Z vanila: metaprogramming is def. where its at 2014-09-19T05:30:23Z work_op: symbolic-macros up in this $h!t, yo 2014-09-19T05:31:03Z leo2007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:32:17Z madrik: what are the biggest obstacles to doing this in any other language, say C++? 2014-09-19T05:32:42Z vanila: lisp is the best for macros because it's homoiconic 2014-09-19T05:35:07Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:36:52Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:37:12Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:37:45Z nug700 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:38:38Z White_Flame: and Lisp has the compiler available at runtime, and the runtime available at compile-time 2014-09-19T05:39:07Z beach: White_Flame: Nicely put! 2014-09-19T05:39:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:41:57Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:42:54Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:44:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:45:36Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-09-19T05:46:05Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:48:12Z work_op: if knowledge is power lisp must be Class III materiel 2014-09-19T05:49:16Z ericmathison quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-19T05:49:22Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:49:44Z jegaxd26 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:51:06Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:51:50Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-19T05:52:47Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:53:37Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T05:54:30Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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After updating SBCL and Quicklisp and then trying to load my software there were some weird errors. It turns out Quicklisp was trying to load old versions of updated packages. I fixed it by removing the directories with the old system, but isn't Quicklisp supposed to load the newest versions? 2014-09-19T08:53:55Z tadni` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T08:54:07Z stassats: is your clock broken? 2014-09-19T08:55:03Z tadni quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T08:55:16Z mood: stassats: Nope, it shows the correct time 2014-09-19T08:56:44Z stassats: maybe it was in the future when you installed the old systems? 2014-09-19T08:57:00Z stassats: although i have no idea how quicklisp selects which system to load 2014-09-19T08:58:07Z mammuth joined #lisp 2014-09-19T08:58:09Z mood: stassats: Doesn't seem so, no. The dates on the files are all correct. 2014-09-19T08:58:52Z echo-area quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T08:58:58Z mammuth quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T09:03:33Z easye` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-09-19T09:04:02Z PuercoPop: mood: you have to update your ql dist if you want it fetch the lastest version, (ql:update-all-dists) 2014-09-19T09:04:24Z mood: PuercoPop: I did that, and actually have the latest versions. It just loads old ones 2014-09-19T09:05:23Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T09:07:48Z easye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:14:39Z stassats: did you save an image with quicklisp loaded and it has old metadata? 2014-09-19T09:14:45Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T09:15:07Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-09-19T09:15:10Z killmaster joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:16:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:17:46Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:18:51Z mood: stassats: Nope, I'm starting a fresh SBCL 2014-09-19T09:20:22Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T09:22:51Z hitecnologys joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:23:56Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:24:37Z gry quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-19T09:25:01Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T09:30:56Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:35:39Z juzdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T09:36:15Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:38:12Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T09:38:41Z segv- joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:40:42Z juzdan quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T09:48:30Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:49:53Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:50:30Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:51:36Z loiclisp joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:55:36Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2014-09-19T09:58:33Z hlavaty: hi, is iterate still maintained in darcs? or is there a git repo where it is available? 2014-09-19T10:01:27Z korqio joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:02:01Z fe[nl]ix: hlavaty: I think it's still kept in the darcs 2014-09-19T10:03:15Z DrCode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2014-09-19T10:03:25Z hlavaty: fe[nl]ix: ok, thanks! 2014-09-19T10:04:46Z loke: mood: what is your content of .sbclrc? 2014-09-19T10:06:24Z arbscht quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2014-09-19T10:11:14Z DrCode joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:11:16Z korqio_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:11:18Z korqio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T10:14:54Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:15:14Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:18:56Z Paul_McFreely quit (Quit: Lingo - http://lingoirc.com) 2014-09-19T10:19:16Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T10:19:36Z stassats joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:19:56Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:21:53Z BitPuffin quit (Quit: See you on the dark side of the moon!) 2014-09-19T10:22:45Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T10:24:10Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:25:09Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:25:09Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T10:25:53Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:26:57Z wasamasa: hmm, I remember downloading a tarball 2014-09-19T10:33:50Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:34:17Z kuzy000_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:35:23Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T10:36:35Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T10:38:01Z arbscht joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:40:04Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T10:40:20Z BitPuffin quit (Quit: See you on the dark side of the moon!) 2014-09-19T10:41:32Z markov` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T10:41:53Z nipra quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2014-09-19T10:42:02Z emma joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:45:20Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T10:46:11Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:46:53Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:46:56Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T10:46:57Z Hydan is now known as Guest80506 2014-09-19T10:50:15Z `JRG joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:02:28Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T11:07:33Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:09:26Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T11:12:22Z stassats quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T11:15:14Z H4ns: is there a way to access the returned value(s) of a function sbcl trace's :condition-after option? 2014-09-19T11:15:33Z H4ns: i.e. i'd like to trace invocations only if the result was, say, nil 2014-09-19T11:16:41Z trebor_dki joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:17:03Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:18:22Z Guest80506 is now known as Hydan 2014-09-19T11:22:43Z hlavaty: H4ns: i dont know, but maybe #sbcl might 2014-09-19T11:24:53Z emma joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:28:12Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T11:29:47Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T11:30:32Z emma joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:33:39Z BitPuffin: Is there any library for cl for parsing org files and turning them in to html 2014-09-19T11:33:41Z splittist: H4ns: (trace foo :condition-after (null (car sb-debug:*trace-values*))) ? 2014-09-19T11:34:20Z H4ns: splittist: almost - it only prints the return, not the invocation, which is not quite as useful as i had hoped. 2014-09-19T11:34:45Z Guest22269 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T11:34:59Z knob joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:39:05Z splittist: H4ns: you could log everything on *trace-output* then use a :print-after to signal which output to keep, post-process the stream, and $$profit$$! 2014-09-19T11:40:15Z H4ns: splittist: yeah thanks, i can think of solutions that are not trace :) 2014-09-19T11:40:32Z splittist: :) 2014-09-19T11:40:47Z H4ns: .oO( these lispers and their inability to just say "no, does not work") :) 2014-09-19T11:42:00Z Krystof: something like :condition-all (or (null sb-debug:*trace-values*) (null (car sb-debug:*trace-values*))) 2014-09-19T11:42:07Z Krystof joins the general inability 2014-09-19T11:42:26Z H4ns: Krystof: "but i need the function arguments be printed, too" 2014-09-19T11:42:41Z Krystof: should print all invocations and only those returns which are nil (or no values) 2014-09-19T11:43:34Z Krystof: but apparently doesn't in fact work 2014-09-19T11:43:42Z Krystof: ok, well, bother 2014-09-19T11:44:00Z emma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T11:44:02Z niko joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:44:04Z H4ns: don't worry. i'm all happy even though it does not work. it would have been neat. 2014-09-19T11:44:08Z niko: hi 2014-09-19T11:45:43Z zopzoo quit (K-Lined) 2014-09-19T11:49:35Z pgomes joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:50:52Z Ethan- joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:52:18Z kcj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T11:54:26Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T11:54:39Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:03:03Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:03:19Z urandom__ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-09-19T12:09:53Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:10:00Z sz0 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:11:52Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:12:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:14:06Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:14:17Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:17:06Z Guest5359 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T12:17:23Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:17:47Z Khisanth is now known as Guest73498 2014-09-19T12:17:53Z Guest73498 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T12:18:50Z khisanth_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:19:10Z khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 2014-09-19T12:23:48Z Xach joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:24:53Z dohsan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:25:48Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:27:55Z sz0_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:27:59Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T12:29:11Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:33:42Z sz0_ quit 2014-09-19T12:37:42Z mood: loke: http://paste.lisp.org/+32XO 2014-09-19T12:37:51Z niko left #lisp 2014-09-19T12:38:03Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:38:18Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:38:35Z markov` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:39:43Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:40:01Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:41:21Z nipra joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:42:30Z oleo joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:45:29Z drmeister quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T12:46:03Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T12:46:34Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:48:43Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T12:49:35Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:50:09Z Xach: What did I miss? 2014-09-19T12:50:23Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T12:50:35Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:50:57Z mood: Xach: Quicklisp, for me, is loading old versions of systems while ignoring the newer ones 2014-09-19T12:52:52Z Xach: mood: I can help. What is an example system? 2014-09-19T12:53:16Z mood: Xach: The problem appeared with cl-syntax 2014-09-19T12:53:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:53:58Z wasamasa: cl-syntax? 2014-09-19T12:54:00Z Xach: mood: Are you ready to debug with me? 2014-09-19T12:54:22Z wasamasa: oh no, it's by cx4a 2014-09-19T12:54:25Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T12:54:28Z wasamasa: :S 2014-09-19T12:54:29Z mood: Xach: I'm at work, so not really 2014-09-19T12:54:37Z Xach: ok. When you're ready, let me know. I can help. 2014-09-19T12:54:51Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:55:47Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:55:48Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2014-09-19T12:56:00Z Longlius joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:56:16Z mr-foobar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T12:56:42Z mr-foobar joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:57:10Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:57:28Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T12:59:20Z eschulte quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-19T12:59:22Z yacks quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:00:33Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:05:37Z juzdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T13:05:55Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:06:08Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:06:09Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:06:34Z juzdan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:06:51Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:08:32Z yacks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:11:39Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:11:44Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:12:55Z faheem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-09-19T13:13:02Z pranavrc quit 2014-09-19T13:15:43Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:16:26Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:16:59Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:17:11Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:17:50Z resttime quit (Quit: resttime) 2014-09-19T13:17:52Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:18:28Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:19:50Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:20:16Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:21:41Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:21:52Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:24:20Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:24:53Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:25:19Z gniourf joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:25:25Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:25:57Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:26:22Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:26:50Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:28:03Z apathor joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:28:41Z zeitue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T13:28:41Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:29:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:29:23Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:29:36Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:30:26Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:30:38Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:31:37Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:31:58Z mr-foobar quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-09-19T13:34:05Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2014-09-19T13:34:35Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:35:19Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:35:23Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:35:25Z jusss quit (Changing host) 2014-09-19T13:35:25Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:37:37Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:37:46Z quazimodo: hey all 2014-09-19T13:37:52Z eudoxia: hey 2014-09-19T13:38:18Z quazimodo: so I don't have a whole heap of experience with CLOS, so i'm kind of wondering how come generic methods are restricted in the number of arguments they can take 2014-09-19T13:38:19Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:38:53Z quazimodo: once defined with n arguments, that's it, all methods belonging to a generic method must take n arguments right? Does that ever get in the way? 2014-09-19T13:39:24Z |3b|: you can define it to accept &key, and add different &key args in different methods 2014-09-19T13:39:34Z Xach: quazimodo: I like the advantages more than I dislike the disadvantages (which, if I knew any, I forgot) 2014-09-19T13:39:57Z Xach: quazimodo: I like that I can type a function name and see an argument list that reflects the real argument list of the (possibly generic) function. 2014-09-19T13:40:12Z Xach: And if I use good names, the name + argument list will give me a remidner of the semantics. 2014-09-19T13:40:57Z DGASAU` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:41:04Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529%40naggum.no.html has some useful high-level info on the topic. 2014-09-19T13:41:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:41:58Z quazimodo: Xach: thanks Xash 2014-09-19T13:42:00Z quazimodo: *Xach 2014-09-19T13:42:05Z DGASAU`` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:44:09Z quazimodo: my problem is my own thinking. I think I've talked about it before but i never really resolved my thoughts. Imagine in ruby, Hash, String, Number, Date, etc all have to_s method, so some how (even if it's not how things are done in CL) i find myself thinking of a to_s generic method for all types, for example. Then the next question for me was, what if these methods need varying numbers of args based on datatype. But I guess i 2014-09-19T13:44:12Z DGASAU`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:44:38Z Shinmera: your message cut off 2014-09-19T13:44:42Z Xach: cut off at "but i guess i" 2014-09-19T13:44:55Z work_op quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:47:11Z DGASAU`` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:48:21Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:48:35Z DGASAU`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:48:36Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:49:14Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T13:49:17Z DGASAU`` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:50:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:50:30Z DGASAU`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:50:52Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:51:08Z ndrei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:51:36Z ndrei_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:51:53Z wasamasa: IRC discourages one-message monologues 2014-09-19T13:52:38Z DGASAU`` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:53:03Z zlrth joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:53:30Z Cymew: Or promotes brevity. It's hard on some of us. :) 2014-09-19T13:54:00Z DGASAU`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:54:02Z wasamasa: the stack exchanges however... 2014-09-19T13:54:21Z wasamasa: let's just say they promote editing 2014-09-19T13:54:38Z DGASAU`` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:55:12Z capitaomorte: Does anyone know if the logs@ccl are working? 2014-09-19T13:55:18Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:55:46Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:56:08Z Xach: capitaomorte: The large logs are working but the daily logs don't seem to be. 2014-09-19T13:56:22Z Xach: Hmm, looks like they were recently fixed. 2014-09-19T13:56:32Z Xach: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2014-09/ for example has daily logs 2014-09-19T13:56:53Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2014-09-19T13:56:54Z knob quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T13:57:34Z capitaomorte: Xach: seems to be the other way round (I didn't know there were daily logs). The large log seem to stop at 09-15 2014-09-19T13:57:58Z capitaomorte: [TXT] lisp-2014-09.txt 15-Sep-2014 23:54 2.0M 2014-09-19T13:58:15Z capitaomorte: anyway the dailies will do 2014-09-19T13:58:46Z Xach: I have been using http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp a bit lately. 2014-09-19T13:58:46Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T13:58:58Z Shinmera: Which got an update just today! :) 2014-09-19T13:59:13Z yacks quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T13:59:21Z Shinmera is still sad that firefox, chrome + ie don't have support for the datetime input type yet 2014-09-19T14:00:23Z quazimodo: oh well :) 2014-09-19T14:01:06Z rick-monster: This may sound like a funny question - is '(1 2) *totally* equivalent to (quote 1 2) ? 2014-09-19T14:01:16Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:01:17Z rick-monster: I just performed a test which suggests that '( conses at compile time inside a (defun, whereas (quote conses when the function is called 2014-09-19T14:01:25Z frkout_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:01:36Z eudoxia: Petit_Dejeuner: cl-closure-template is very sensitive about anything that is not strictly correct, but it works for me 2014-09-19T14:01:59Z nand1` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:02:14Z Xach: rick-monster: they read exactly the same. 2014-09-19T14:02:38Z Xach: rick-monster: (defun foo () '(1 2)) has the same elements as (defun foo nil (quote 1 2)) 2014-09-19T14:02:50Z prxq_ is now known as prxq 2014-09-19T14:03:02Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:03:08Z nell: n 2014-09-19T14:03:18Z Shinmera- joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:04:21Z DGASAU`` is now known as DGASAU 2014-09-19T14:04:27Z kuzy000__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:04:38Z rick-monster: hmm I can do this inside my lisp image: 2014-09-19T14:04:38Z rick-monster: (defun foo () '(1 2)) 2014-09-19T14:04:38Z rick-monster: (foo) 2014-09-19T14:04:38Z rick-monster: (rplacd (foo) '(4 5)) 2014-09-19T14:04:38Z rick-monster: (foo) 2014-09-19T14:04:56Z izirku_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:04:59Z ski__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:04:59Z gendl left #lisp 2014-09-19T14:05:10Z tbarletz_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:05:15Z rick-monster: the result of the second (foo) is '(1 4 5) 2014-09-19T14:05:27Z vlnx_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:05:33Z Xach: rick-monster: You should not modify quoted data in a program. 2014-09-19T14:05:53Z Xach: The chapter & verse of the spec escapes me, but I can look it up if you like. 2014-09-19T14:06:14Z drmeist__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T14:06:26Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:06:28Z Xach: rick-monster: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.7.1 is it 2014-09-19T14:06:55Z Xach: rick-monster: follow the link under "literal" to see the glossary entry describing quoted objects 2014-09-19T14:08:00Z xificurC quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T14:08:59Z wasamasa: so, what is this cltl3 thing I sometimes read about 2014-09-19T14:09:01Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-19T14:09:06Z ivan\_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:09:32Z atgreen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T14:09:34Z Xach: I don't know, what is it? 2014-09-19T14:09:39Z Xach: Where did you read it? 2014-09-19T14:09:51Z drmeiste_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:09:53Z wasamasa: it's supposed to stand for "Common Lisp the Language 3" 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z wormphle1m joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z ndrei_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z dohsan quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z Shinmera quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z trebor_dki quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z kuzy000_ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z moore33 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z theos quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z vlnx quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z clog quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z ecraven quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z ski quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:15Z nand1 quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z tbarletz quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z izirku quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z GGMethos quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z yauz quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z frkout quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z schoppenhauer quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z wormphlegm quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z ivan\ quit (*.net *.split) 2014-09-19T14:10:16Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:10:23Z wasamasa: but I found nothing clarifying whether it's a hypothetical revamp of the CL specification, something people actively discuss on a mailing list or something entirely else 2014-09-19T14:10:23Z yauz_2 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:10:37Z Xach: I think it can be safely ignored. 2014-09-19T14:10:46Z wasamasa: ok then 2014-09-19T14:11:11Z ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 2014-09-19T14:11:51Z juzdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T14:12:16Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T14:12:52Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:12:53Z rick-monster: thanks for the clarification Xach - serves me right for dabbling in low hacks I guess 2014-09-19T14:13:28Z quazimodo: here's a good question 2014-09-19T14:13:42Z Xach: i'll be the judge of that! 2014-09-19T14:14:23Z quazimodo: I'm used to organising my code into 'service objects' or 'orm objects' or 'controllers' or 'decorators' etc. (ruby...), so how do people most logically go about doing it in cl? 2014-09-19T14:15:05Z theos joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:15:13Z rick-monster: speaking of low hacks. I also found the need today to write a macro called eval-in-package 2014-09-19T14:15:21Z quazimodo: for example touch_xach.rb in /services would have a class TouchXach; def gently; puts 'touched him ever so gently'; end. for example 2014-09-19T14:16:01Z Xach: rick-monster: sounds ominous. what prompted the need? 2014-09-19T14:16:37Z quazimodo: and generaly I get by, my files rarely exceed 250 lines. I've found with CL that i'm getting long files full of a mish mash of methods, inconsistently sorted (like the emacs lisp projects i did in the past) 2014-09-19T14:16:52Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T14:16:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:16:59Z Mon_Ouie quit (Changing host) 2014-09-19T14:16:59Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:17:04Z rick-monster: I'm munging thousands of CSV files, some of which have inconsistent/unknown formats 2014-09-19T14:17:05Z eudoxia: quazimodo: my experience with CL has been different. i usually split things into files, with one package per file. 2014-09-19T14:17:08Z GGMethos joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:17:32Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-19T14:18:26Z quazimodo: eudoxia: well i'm *considering* creating a directory per distinct 'feature', then having a feature.lisp along with models/ services/ decorators/ etc style directory naming per feature 2014-09-19T14:18:38Z quazimodo: not sure if that's a great way to go about organising thinsg though 2014-09-19T14:19:01Z rick-monster: in order to separate the knowledge of those formats from the main body of the code, I'm storing uneval-ed s-expressions in a db, then reading them back out when a 'similar' file comes up 2014-09-19T14:19:22Z Shinmera-: I just split thing into files according to what I think fits together. 2014-09-19T14:19:25Z Shinmera- shrugs 2014-09-19T14:19:45Z eudoxia: quazimodo: i usually don't use different directories, just files in src/ 2014-09-19T14:20:13Z eudoxia: quazimodo: eg https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane/tree/master/src 2014-09-19T14:20:16Z Xach: rick-monster: What kind of s-expressions? 2014-09-19T14:20:33Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-09-19T14:20:43Z rick-monster: s-expressions that eval to a lambda form 2014-09-19T14:20:44Z H4ns: quazimodo: i find that in lisp, i do not organize my code so much around classes (or decorators, controllers), but around functionality and packages. 2014-09-19T14:21:14Z H4ns: quazimodo: so if i have some functionality area, i put it in a package and export a bunch of functions (or classes) from that. 2014-09-19T14:21:39Z quazimodo: H4ns: very different way to what I'm used to 2014-09-19T14:21:41Z H4ns: quazimodo: we don't do all the file oriented scaffolding that is prevalent in rails and other frameworks like that. i consider that a feature. 2014-09-19T14:21:45Z H4ns: quazimodo: "so?" 2014-09-19T14:22:06Z quazimodo: i have to spend time for my mind to adapt, thats all :) 2014-09-19T14:22:07Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:22:13Z eudoxia: quazimodo: i do the same thing as H4ns. packages isolate design decisions, and export an interface. that's it. 2014-09-19T14:22:15Z quazimodo: you don't like the file oriented scaffolding? I do 2014-09-19T14:22:34Z H4ns: quazimodo: if you do, maybe you will not become friends with lisp so easily. 2014-09-19T14:22:53Z quazimodo: H4ns: yeah it's a bit of a struggle at times. The files helped me mentally separate concerns 2014-09-19T14:23:32Z quazimodo: each file had a class (more often than not) and each class defined its public interface, and rarely grew very big. easy for my brain :) 2014-09-19T14:23:57Z quazimodo: i guess I need to look at more lisp code 2014-09-19T14:25:08Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:25:15Z Xach: that makes sense when classes are the namespace mechanism too 2014-09-19T14:25:25Z thierrygar quit (Quit: thierrygar) 2014-09-19T14:25:26Z Xach: in CL, packages are the primary namespace option 2014-09-19T14:25:28Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:25:42Z quazimodo: eudoxia: cool orm :) 2014-09-19T14:26:40Z quazimodo: ok, so i just need to conceptually consider using a lot more packages internally in my code, generally a file per package, then consider putting those in directories when the situation calls for it 2014-09-19T14:26:49Z eudoxia: quazimodo: thanks. i'm of course biased, but i think it's a good example of how to structure lisp code. 2014-09-19T14:26:56Z quazimodo: that does simplify my thinking, thank :D 2014-09-19T14:27:02Z jikanter joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:27:36Z quazimodo: eudoxia: how come you decided to go with a non timestamped migration system, where you diff and alter ? 2014-09-19T14:27:49Z quazimodo: instead of providing timestamped 'steps' 2014-09-19T14:28:03Z rick-monster: that lambda form represents a filemunger - so (funcall filemunger ) returns a closure which munges the CSV a few lines at a time. Some of these things are like half a gigabyte... 2014-09-19T14:28:07Z eudoxia: quazimodo: what do you mean timestamped steps? a file with SQL to go 'forward', and one to go 'backwards'? 2014-09-19T14:28:54Z eudoxia: i just felt storing the structure of the table at each step was the best thing to do. incidentally, the latest version of Django has built-in migrations that work like that, and Django is backed by plenty of smart people :) 2014-09-19T14:29:52Z quazimodo: eudoxia: i'm not saying it's dumb. Just curious what happens when you want to go backwards, or if you need to perform a some procedures on your data in between 2 migration steps 2014-09-19T14:29:53Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:30:44Z eudoxia: quazimodo: if you want to go backwards, you just take the diff between the current and previous migration and apply it. 2014-09-19T14:30:47Z thierrygar joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:31:14Z eudoxia: as for data across migrations, yeah. i've considering adding options for executing some SQL when the migration moves forward, and backwards. 2014-09-19T14:31:32Z quazimodo: eudoxia: i've forked your project 2014-09-19T14:32:46Z eudoxia: quazimodo: if you want to make changes to the migration system i'd probably welcome that 2014-09-19T14:32:56Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:33:13Z eudoxia: i think it could use some polishing, or a few extra functions in its interface 2014-09-19T14:33:28Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2014-09-19T14:35:18Z quazimodo: eudoxia: :) i doubt i'd be very capable. 2014-09-19T14:36:18Z rick-monster: anyway - I wanted to know whether I'm shadowing all the necessary variables here to avoid further side-effects: 2014-09-19T14:36:18Z rick-monster: (defmacro with-in-package (package &body body) 2014-09-19T14:36:18Z rick-monster: `(let ((*package* *package*) 2014-09-19T14:36:18Z rick-monster: (*readtable* *readtable*)) 2014-09-19T14:36:18Z rick-monster: (in-package ,package) 2014-09-19T14:36:19Z rick-monster: ,@body)) 2014-09-19T14:36:22Z PuercoPop: quazimodo: you can still use a one package per file to keep things small, but grouping stuff by 'what they are' instead of what they do doesn't seem like a good idea in any language. You can use uiop/package:define-package's :reexport option to merge all packages and present a single 'namespace' to your 'consumers'.. 2014-09-19T14:36:33Z H4ns: rick-monster: please use paste.lisp.org. don't paste code to the channel 2014-09-19T14:36:47Z rick-monster: oops sorry 2014-09-19T14:36:54Z quazimodo: PuercoPop: makes sense 2014-09-19T14:37:12Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T14:37:15Z H4ns: PuercoPop: doesn't that :reexport thing to break M-. in slime? 2014-09-19T14:37:53Z quazimodo: that method of grouping does work quite well for a long time in rails, i think a project would have to become huge for it to start showing issues. In any case at the end of the day I think the development environment should be able to group things by feature or by what it is etc 2014-09-19T14:38:05Z Xach: rick-monster: in-package is superfluous there. all in-package does is set *package* within an eval-when. 2014-09-19T14:38:09Z quazimodo: anyway 2014-09-19T14:41:19Z PuercoPop: H4ns: Just tested it, not in sly at least. 2014-09-19T14:42:37Z quazimodo: gtg 2014-09-19T15:36:55Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp 2014-09-19T15:36:55Z 2014-09-19T15:36:55Z names: ccl-logbot vanila Neptu Nizumzen rme tkd Tristam girrig sjl troydm AeroNotix johs zymurgy1 wasamasa rotty SHODAN eee-blt farawayexplorer phadthai _death p_l|backup lifenoodles_ ineiros jackdaniel finnrobi_ gluegadget housel` stux|away faheem brucem_ TristamWrk smull_ mood_ qbit_ micro_ eak_ malglim_ Alfr joast yacks jlongster innertracks hitecnologys Shinmera loke_ rick-monster Subfusc stepnem mtd mr-foobar ski killmaster Haskellfant justinmcp_ karswell` 2014-09-19T15:36:55Z names: 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Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T16:01:23Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:01:25Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T16:02:01Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:04:22Z urandom__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:06:19Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-19T16:06:39Z jkaye quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:07:20Z effy_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:07:42Z effy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:12:42Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:12:43Z jasom: rick-monster: function definitions often can be serialized using prin1; something like cl-store is more robust though 2014-09-19T16:12:45Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-09-19T16:12:55Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:13:18Z robot-beethoven joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:15:35Z jasom: rick-monster: your with-in-package won't work at all, since body will be read before the in-package takes effect 2014-09-19T16:15:46Z rick-monster: struggling to reproduce the behaviour in a simple case, but my problem is something to do with: 2014-09-19T16:15:46Z rick-monster: sbcl prepending cl-user: to the function name under certain edge cases 2014-09-19T16:15:46Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T16:16:12Z rick-monster: worryingly, that awful macro *does* actually make my code work... 2014-09-19T16:16:47Z loic__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:17:02Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:19:10Z Xach: It's a classic case of "if you know all the rules and state, it is perfectly predictable" 2014-09-19T16:19:27Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:19:31Z jasom: rick-monster: I don't see how the behavior of that macro could be anything other than for the body to be read in as if in the original value of *package* 2014-09-19T16:20:29Z Xach: A symbol with no package prefix will be interned in CL-USER if it is READ when *PACKAGE* is the CL-USER package. 2014-09-19T16:20:59Z Xach: It will be printed with a CL-USER prefix if that is its home package and it is not accessible in the current value of *PACKAGE*. 2014-09-19T16:21:12Z beach joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:21:25Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2014-09-19T16:24:16Z moore33 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:24:18Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:27:10Z srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 2014-09-19T16:28:45Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:29:24Z beach: [off topic, sorry, just give me a minute] With my latest order from Amazon UK came a card offering me two gifts from "graze" (snack place), but apparently, only UK addresses will do. Does anyone want them? All you need is two codes that I will give to you. 2014-09-19T16:29:25Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2014-09-19T16:29:47Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:30:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:30:27Z beach: OK, PM me if you want it. 2014-09-19T16:31:30Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:31:59Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:34:24Z phao joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:35:22Z dfox_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:35:45Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:36:03Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T16:36:32Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:36:34Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:36:48Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:37:36Z juzdan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:39:47Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T16:40:03Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:40:24Z dfox_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:40:43Z beach: OK, both gone. Sorry again for the off-topic. 2014-09-19T16:44:10Z Alex`` quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0) 2014-09-19T16:45:09Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:45:48Z pt1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T16:45:52Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:46:56Z duggiefresh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T16:47:01Z sol__ quit (Disconnected by services) 2014-09-19T16:48:09Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:50:13Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:51:09Z gendl quit (Quit: gendl) 2014-09-19T16:55:58Z k-stz` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:56:01Z common-lisper joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:56:49Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T16:57:04Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T16:58:00Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:01:38Z zymurgy1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8) 2014-09-19T17:01:52Z zymurgy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:02:56Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:04:03Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:04:20Z Paul_McFreely quit (Quit: Lingo - http://lingoirc.com) 2014-09-19T17:04:26Z nihilatus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:05:15Z nihilatus left #lisp 2014-09-19T17:06:14Z zeebrah quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:08:10Z vanila quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T17:08:57Z rme joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:09:22Z Elench quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:11:12Z vanila joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:13:15Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:14:43Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:17:23Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T17:20:11Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T17:22:03Z slyrus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:22:34Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:24:39Z theseb joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:25:39Z theseb: maybe i'm the last person to have noticed but i figured out how to NOT go crazy when writing macros...I do this....1. write out what want expansion to look like......2. use backquote and commas to make a template that looks like that 2014-09-19T17:25:53Z theseb: notice i never try to "expand" the macro in my head which gets confusing 2014-09-19T17:25:59Z theseb: is that what others do? 2014-09-19T17:26:05Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:26:30Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2014-09-19T17:26:30Z yrk joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:27:25Z Xach: sort of. i sometimes farm out part of filling in the template to subordinate functions. 2014-09-19T17:27:37Z Xach: I hate to see long, complicated logic in a single defmacro definition. 2014-09-19T17:28:09Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T17:28:17Z theseb: Xach: great..thanks....i feel a lot better now about macros :) 2014-09-19T17:28:38Z jkaye: I just think of backquote as a big template. Without a comma I get what I typed. With a comma, I get what's evaluated 2014-09-19T17:28:53Z jkaye: Maybe that doesn't make as much sense, but I find it to be pretty simple 2014-09-19T17:29:03Z theseb: jkaye: exactly 2014-09-19T17:29:26Z theseb: I would also suggest adding a comment at the top of your macro definition file with the desired expansion specified 2014-09-19T17:29:33Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:29:47Z hitecnologys quit (Quit: hitecnologys) 2014-09-19T17:29:48Z theseb: man..it took a while to get some peace about this 2014-09-19T17:29:50Z jkaye: Writing out the expansion first, I would be afraid that I'd be more apt to accidentally write a leaky macro 2014-09-19T17:30:13Z theseb: jkaye: you can't write a macro w/o knowing what you are shooting for 2014-09-19T17:30:48Z jkaye: True, but in actually writing it first I would be more likely to make errors/assumptions 2014-09-19T17:30:51Z beach left #lisp 2014-09-19T17:31:09Z jkaye: Similar to the problems that come about in copy/pasting code 2014-09-19T17:31:32Z jkaye: Not saying it isn't a fine way to do it, just that I personally wouldn't do so 2014-09-19T17:34:49Z |3b| expands things with slime rather than in my head 2014-09-19T17:35:20Z fridim__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:37:04Z k-stz` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:37:38Z rick-monster: xach - thanks you're exactly right - the value of *PACKAGE* at READ time is CL-USER. It's because *PACKAGE* is dynamically scoped. 2014-09-19T17:38:22Z jasom: rick-monster: it's because READ happens before the macro expands 2014-09-19T17:39:23Z malbertife joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:39:26Z rick-monster: jasom - ignore the macro. It's a horrible horrible hack which probably shouldn't work but does (in this instance) 2014-09-19T17:39:44Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T17:40:04Z rick-monster: alarm bells started ringing when that macro became part of my 'solution' 2014-09-19T17:40:46Z loic__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:41:05Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T17:41:07Z Jesin joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:41:18Z rick-monster: if I (use-package the package containing my function definitions to cl-user it also 'fixes' the problem 2014-09-19T17:41:45Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-09-19T17:42:57Z rick-monster: but the real solution lies in the deserialisation library, which executes the READ from cl-user 2014-09-19T17:42:58Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:43:11Z le-rat joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:44:23Z juzdan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T17:46:05Z rick-monster: s/solution/underlying problem/ 2014-09-19T17:46:11Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:48:23Z le-rat: alibaba!! 2014-09-19T17:48:34Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-19T17:49:43Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T17:50:02Z common-lisper quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T17:50:08Z Nizumzen quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2014-09-19T17:50:29Z oudeis joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:50:56Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:51:18Z innertracks quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T17:51:44Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:53:34Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-09-19T17:53:48Z boogie joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:54:37Z snits quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-19T17:56:23Z oudeis: hi. anyone knows what codebase mocl is based on? 2014-09-19T17:56:44Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:57:45Z mutley89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T17:58:19Z `JRG quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T17:58:24Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:58:44Z |3b|: oudeis: possibly clicc if i remember right 2014-09-19T17:58:53Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:58:59Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-09-19T17:59:05Z jasom: |3b|: oudeis, that's my recollection as well 2014-09-19T17:59:27Z bit` quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:01:09Z dkcl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:01:25Z mutley89 quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T18:01:27Z duggiefresh joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:01:43Z oudeis: thanks 2014-09-19T18:02:04Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:03:48Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-19T18:03:53Z hiyosi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:04:58Z pnpuff quit (Quit: leaving) 2014-09-19T18:04:58Z JuanitoJons quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T18:06:10Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:07:31Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: the thing is that in CLOS, methods are attached to generic functions. There's a single generic function for all the methods of same name. In Smalltalk-like OO, methods are attached to the class, but the number of arguments is part of the name (with the colons). In C++-like OO, methods are also attached to the class, and there's operator overloading to allow different signature with the same method 2014-09-19T18:07:31Z pjb: name. The argument count and types are encoded in the real method names (mangling). 2014-09-19T18:07:31Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:07:47Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: name. The argument count and types are encoded in the real method names (mangling). 2014-09-19T18:07:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:09:13Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: so, in CLOS, what you can do is to use &key &allow-other-keys and &rest in a generic function signature to allow methods to take different arguments, but they are not used for the dispatching. The alternative is to use different (generic-)functions: (to-string obj) (to-string/indent obj indent) (to-string/base obj base) etc. 2014-09-19T18:09:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:09:20Z common-lisper joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:10:23Z vsync- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:11:54Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-09-19T18:12:50Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1-dev) 2014-09-19T18:12:56Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: there is more than one dimension to organize code. Often, you have modules to deal with a given entity, so it seems logical to rassemble the service object, the orm object, the controller and decorator for that entity in the same place. Of course, the compilation time dependencies are orthogonal, as are the run-time dependencies, and as is the hierarchical dependencies, and so on. 2014-09-19T18:12:56Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:13:11Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:14:06Z 17SAAASJI joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:14:06Z 1JTAADDOD joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:14:26Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: In a big project, having subdirectories per features can be a good way to organize it. In anycase, IMO, source file management should be done automatically by the IDE (I will have to teach emacs something one of these days…) 2014-09-19T18:14:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:14:47Z mutley89 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:16:08Z logand` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:16:50Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: For an application, one package = one file may be too fine grained. I would define packages in terms of big components in the applications, and allow for several subcomponents being implemented in each package, with code spread over files in some logical way (depending on the components, no strict rule here). 2014-09-19T18:16:50Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:17:33Z pjb: minion: memo for quazimodo: Also notice that in CL, you may have to split code over files for compilation time/macro expansion time dependencies reasons. 2014-09-19T18:17:33Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell quazimodo when he/she/it next speaks. 2014-09-19T18:18:48Z segv- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:18:50Z le-rat quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-09-19T18:19:14Z logand` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T18:19:46Z common-lisper quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:20:15Z logand` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:20:57Z 1JTAADDOD quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:21:40Z 17SAAASJI quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:23:04Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:29:08Z kdlv joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:30:52Z rick-monster: ok xach - created a lexical binding for *package* around the call to READ and problem solved - thanks again! 2014-09-19T18:31:42Z phao quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T18:31:55Z kdlv quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T18:31:57Z common-lisper joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:33:46Z juzdan joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:34:08Z kdlv joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:34:28Z kdlv quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-19T18:35:31Z drmeist__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:36:12Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T18:37:06Z mutley89 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:38:33Z DGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:38:39Z drmeiste_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T18:39:34Z ehaliewicz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:40:07Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:41:32Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:42:01Z clapautius joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:42:33Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2014-09-19T18:42:52Z kobain joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:43:34Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:43:41Z Adlai: rick-monster: technically... that would be a dynamic binding. *package* is a special variable, so any bindings to it are dynamic 2014-09-19T18:44:32Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T18:45:46Z common-lisper quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:48:05Z kdlv joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:48:39Z phao joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:48:59Z k-stz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:50:20Z pjb: rick-monster: there can be no lexical binding for cl:*package*! cl:*package* is a special variable, which means that all bindings to it will always be dynamic bindings! 2014-09-19T18:50:22Z rick-monster: adlai I've done something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143780 2014-09-19T18:51:05Z pjb: rick-monster: this is correct, because *package* is used (only!) at read-time, and since you are reading in there, it will be taken into account. 2014-09-19T18:52:32Z rick-monster: ah - ok I should study a bit more the difference between lexical and dynamic binding. Thought that whenever you use let that was called lexical, and with defvar was dynamic 2014-09-19T18:54:30Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:55:07Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:55:17Z pjb: rick-monster: the source of read-from-string is not present in the lexical context of your let form. Therefore if it was a lexical binding, it wouldn't have any effect on the code in the read-from-string function. 2014-09-19T18:55:41Z Grue`: basically let can do both, depending on whether the variable is special or not 2014-09-19T18:55:58Z pjb: (let ((lexical-variable 'hi)) #| here lexical-variable is bound to hi |#) ; here lexical-variable doesn't exist. 2014-09-19T18:55:59Z gendl joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:56:07Z Grue`: and if variable is like *foo*, it's by convention special 2014-09-19T18:56:34Z pjb: (defun f () #| here lexical-variable doesn't exist. |#) (let ((lexical-variable 'hi)) #| here lexical-variable is bound to hi |# (f)) ; here lexical-variable doesn't exist. 2014-09-19T18:57:07Z jasom: rick-monster: defvar globally declares a variable to be special; let will do dynamic bindings of any special variables and lexical bindings otherwise 2014-09-19T18:57:10Z pjb: Grue`: no, not by convention. By declaration, either implicit with defvar or defparameter, or explicit with declaim/proclaim or declare. 2014-09-19T18:57:34Z jasom: Grue`: earmuffed variables are special by convention 2014-09-19T18:57:37Z jasom: er pjb 2014-09-19T18:57:42Z pjb: (defun g () *obfuscated-lexical*) (let ((*obfuscated-lexical* 42)) (g)) --> error undefined variable! 2014-09-19T18:57:47Z jkaye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T18:57:50Z jasom: pjb: which violates the convention 2014-09-19T18:57:54Z Grue`: no, I'm saying if the variable name has earmuffs it doesn't have to be special, but most likely is 2014-09-19T18:57:55Z pjb: jasom: no, not by convention, by declaration! 2014-09-19T18:58:00Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:58:12Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T18:58:22Z pjb: jasom: you must not look at the convention, you must look for the declaration. No declaration => no special-ness => lexical binding. 2014-09-19T18:58:29Z jasom: *obfuscaed-lexical* isn't special in that case, which violates the convention that variables with earmuffs are special. 2014-09-19T18:58:42Z jasom: pjb: do you not understand what the term "convention" means? 2014-09-19T18:58:43Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-09-19T18:58:51Z arenz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T18:59:01Z Grue`: but usually nobody looks for declaration, especially for built-in variables like *package* or *print-blah* 2014-09-19T18:59:06Z pjb: jasom: no, it's not in the clhs glossary. 2014-09-19T18:59:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-09-19T18:59:38Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:00:00Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:00:02Z jasom: pjb: how about "customary" 2014-09-19T19:00:08Z jasom: not in the glossary, but is used in clhs 2014-09-19T19:00:24Z jasom: It is customary to name dynamic variables with an asterisk at the beginning and end of the name. e.g., *foo* is a good name for a dynamic variable, but not for a lexical variable; foo is a good name for a lexical variable, but not for a dynamic variable. This naming convention is observed for all defined names in Common Lisp; however, neither conforming programs nor conforming implementations are obliged to adhere to this convention. 2014-09-19T19:00:28Z pjb: The convention is special => earmuffs, not earmuffs => special. 2014-09-19T19:00:30Z jasom: oh look, it uses the term "convention" too 2014-09-19T19:00:53Z jasom: pjb: the convention is special <=> earmuffs 2014-09-19T19:00:55Z Grue`: too bad clhs doesn't adhere to +foo+ convention for some of its constants 2014-09-19T19:01:35Z clapautius left #lisp 2014-09-19T19:03:20Z jasom: pjb: another way to say it is that the convention is just as strong to not use earmuffs for lexical as it is to use earmuffs for special 2014-09-19T19:04:04Z madrik quit (Quit: sleep) 2014-09-19T19:04:41Z nell joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:06:04Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:06:04Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:07:32Z pjb: jasom: I can agree with that. 2014-09-19T19:07:47Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T19:08:23Z pjb: But my point is that you should be conscious of the difference between what you read and what the computer knows. 80% of time spent debugging comes from those differences. 2014-09-19T19:10:24Z mutley89 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-19T19:12:24Z rick-monster: ok thanks for clearing that up - can the technique I used in the example correctly be called 'shadowing' ? 2014-09-19T19:12:50Z pnpuff quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-09-19T19:13:31Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T19:13:54Z jkaye quit 2014-09-19T19:14:19Z |3b|: if you mean binding a special variable, that is included in the CLHS definition of "shadowing" if there is already a binding for that variable 2014-09-19T19:14:28Z |3b| would usually just call it "binding" though 2014-09-19T19:14:46Z vlnx quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T19:14:52Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T19:15:14Z |3b| would only use "shadowing" if the outer value was for some reason interesting 2014-09-19T19:16:20Z vlnx joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:16:58Z jasom: pjb: well (calculate-vector-product a b) might actually reformat your hard-drive. Absent unusual behavior, we assume it actually will calculate the vector product of its operands. 2014-09-19T19:17:13Z vinleod joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:17:52Z klltkr joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:18:14Z jasom: Once you know there's a bug, then it's a good idea to see if any conventions have been violated. 2014-09-19T19:22:12Z juzdan quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2014-09-19T19:23:44Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:24:31Z jkaye joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:24:48Z gryyy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:26:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:27:45Z resttime joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:27:56Z `JRG joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:30:42Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T19:31:06Z kdas__ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:31:15Z kdas__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T19:31:17Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T19:31:48Z kushal joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:42:25Z arenz joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:45:47Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T19:46:25Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T19:47:27Z resttime: Whoa: http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/msg04823.html 2014-09-19T19:47:56Z guaqua``` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:48:04Z zophy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:48:06Z resttime: whoa 2014-09-19T19:48:09Z Shinmera: Nice 2014-09-19T19:48:18Z guaqua``` is now known as guaqua 2014-09-19T19:52:14Z fragamus joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:52:48Z klltkr quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2014-09-19T19:54:24Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language common-lisp.net migration 2014-09-22@09:00UTC (http://bit.ly/1mmCw6o) 2014-09-19T19:54:28Z p_l: grr 2014-09-19T19:55:04Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language logs:|contact op if muted|common-lisp.net migration 2014-09-22@09:00UTC (http://bit.ly/1mmCw6o)|New: Drakma-1.3.10, SBCL 1.2.3, cl-launch 4.1 2014-09-19T19:55:13Z p_l: ok, fixed 2014-09-19T19:55:57Z prxq: p_l: thanks 2014-09-19T19:56:23Z atgreen joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:57:14Z ndrei joined #lisp 2014-09-19T19:57:37Z p_l: np 2014-09-19T19:58:06Z ndrei_ joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:02:53Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:05:43Z `JRG quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:05:54Z Nizumzen joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:06:00Z prxq: common-lisp.net will migrate to a new server on monday. http://bit.ly/1mmCw6o 2014-09-19T20:07:29Z rme: Good luck. 2014-09-19T20:08:03Z rme: (I mean that sincerely.) 2014-09-19T20:08:28Z prxq: rme: didn't take it otherwise. Thanks. 2014-09-19T20:14:03Z fraisni joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:14:09Z resttime: Anything more helpful for beginner lisp programmers sounds good to me :) 2014-09-19T20:16:47Z prxq: the idea is to make the site a lot more than "just" a project hoster. 2014-09-19T20:17:55Z pjb: yans: yet another new server. 2014-09-19T20:22:07Z Longlius quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T20:22:09Z prxq: "this time it's different" 2014-09-19T20:22:48Z thepreacher joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:23:14Z thepreacher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T20:23:23Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:25:39Z resttime: cool, well if you need perspective from a beginner lisp programmer you can ask me 2014-09-19T20:26:07Z resttime: and i just got a sp-am bot msg... 2014-09-19T20:26:35Z resttime: from fr-i-sni 2014-09-19T20:26:43Z resttime: without the '-' 2014-09-19T20:27:01Z macdice` is now known as macdice 2014-09-19T20:27:44Z Adlai: sadly, spam is the ether permeating freenode these days 2014-09-19T20:28:27Z p_l: fraisni you mean? 2014-09-19T20:29:19Z fraisni quit (K-Lined) 2014-09-19T20:29:38Z p_l: unfortunately can't do much about pm spam… 2014-09-19T20:29:53Z resttime: yeah, went to go report 2014-09-19T20:29:54Z k-stz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T20:30:21Z resttime: if my prediction is correct, somebody will join really quickly to check the uptime of that bot or something 2014-09-19T20:30:29Z resttime: at some point 2014-09-19T20:30:29Z ndrei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:30:29Z p_l: I try to ban etc. but it won't do much if they get your nick elsewhere unless you block PMs from unregistered nicks 2014-09-19T20:30:40Z ndrei_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:31:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:32:29Z logand`` joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:33:46Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-19T20:34:58Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:37:00Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:37:13Z prxq: resttime: feel free to articulate your perspective 2014-09-19T20:38:47Z resttime: libraries so much 2014-09-19T20:39:55Z resttime: generally there's also a feeling that everythings kinda outdated 2014-09-19T20:40:07Z resttime: make sure to mention quicklisp and how to use it 2014-09-19T20:40:43Z resttime: if there were more support for windows things that would be cool 2014-09-19T20:41:05Z resttime: if there was a section for some kinda LISP related news that would feel kinda better 2014-09-19T20:41:49Z resttime: i believe most newbie programmers are going to start out just doing small side projects 2014-09-19T20:42:00Z resttime: if that isn't supported through and through it'll turn a lot away 2014-09-19T20:43:41Z resttime: like I originally wrote allegro bindings because it didn't feel like other things were more up to date 2014-09-19T20:43:57Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:44:11Z resttime: i don't think a lot of people are willing to do that once they start out 2014-09-19T20:44:22Z prxq: the outdatedness feeling is one of those things. Since the platforms is so damn stable, there are perfectly fine libraries that haven't had an update for over a decade. 2014-09-19T20:44:41Z Patzy joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:45:01Z resttime: i would say making that clear is important thatb 2014-09-19T20:45:13Z prxq: unfortunately people (i admit that includes me) only consider software alive if it has had recent updates. 2014-09-19T20:45:32Z prxq: indeed 2014-09-19T20:45:39Z Shinmera: A collection of good blog entries that explain/introduce/debunk some common problems/techniques/myths would be good too. 2014-09-19T20:45:52Z arenz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:45:52Z prxq: resttime: a lot of lisp news can be found here: planet.lisp.org 2014-09-19T20:48:30Z prxq: resttime: with "windows things" you mean windows the OS or "windows things" a.k.a. gui stuff? 2014-09-19T20:48:37Z resttime: aything 2014-09-19T20:50:11Z jegaxd26 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-19T20:51:03Z prxq: well, gui stuff can be done. qt works, as does gtk and tk. It's easier than in C for sure. 2014-09-19T20:51:13Z resttime: maybe gleaning off planet lisp posts would be okay to show on front page 2014-09-19T20:51:35Z resttime: to me planet.lisp.org seems very separate 2014-09-19T20:51:50Z nand1` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-19T20:52:04Z prxq: good point 2014-09-19T20:52:10Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:53:00Z oudeis quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-09-19T20:56:09Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2014-09-19T20:56:48Z djuber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T20:58:57Z izirku_ quit (Quit: If your not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space) 2014-09-19T21:00:04Z benny joined #lisp 2014-09-19T21:02:24Z pt1 joined #lisp 2014-09-19T21:05:09Z vinleod quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T21:05:12Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-19T21:05:57Z zophy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-19T21:07:14Z fragamus quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2014-09-19T21:07:18Z 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2014-09-19T23:39:20Z jusss joined #lisp 2014-09-19T23:40:16Z backupthrick: http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/msg04823.html 2014-09-19T23:42:43Z marsbot is now known as marsam 2014-09-19T23:46:20Z cheryllium joined #lisp 2014-09-19T23:48:47Z zlrth joined #lisp 2014-09-19T23:49:19Z cheryllium: how is everyone today? 2014-09-19T23:50:03Z pjb: 10% are excelent, 10% are very bad, 80% are average. 2014-09-19T23:50:35Z cheryllium: aww why are 10% very bad? 2014-09-19T23:50:35Z schoppenhauer: and 2% are overflow 2014-09-19T23:50:58Z pjb: cheryllium: stuff like taxes to pay, ebola to cure, etc. 2014-09-19T23:51:05Z cheryllium: :( 2014-09-19T23:51:15Z pjb: and worse; guess which one will happen first! 2014-09-19T23:51:29Z marsam is now known as marsbot 2014-09-19T23:52:55Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-19T23:53:58Z clop quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-19T23:54:41Z cheryllium: maybe we should talk about the 10% who are excellent instead 2014-09-19T23:55:24Z Quadrescence: let's talk about how lisp's lack of compile-time-determined parametric polymorphism is aggravating 2014-09-19T23:55:45Z pjb: They just happen to have some problem controling their dopamine. It's temporary, they'll become realist soon enough. 2014-09-19T23:57:16Z Quadrescence: pjb, how would you design a library to do efficient complex number library, supposing Lisp didn't have them 2014-09-19T23:58:31Z pjb: see https://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/source/d02bb0ea8009ffc236fef0c29c8e7d9739741c3c:common-lisp/invoice/invoice.lisp#L363 2014-09-19T23:59:27Z Kabaka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)