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Will learing C. Lisp screw my efforts with Scheme, or are they simmilar enough? 2014-03-22T02:27:38Z Scheme and Common Lisp are both lisp dialects. 2014-03-22T02:27:40Z they are different languages 2014-03-22T02:27:58Z it shouldn't "screw" your efforts but it's not going to be a substitute for a book on guile 2014-03-22T02:28:09Z They share a lot of common heritage, so the fundamentals you learn in one will translate easily to the fundamentals in the other. 2014-03-22T02:28:23Z Apart from the fundamentals, the details differ significantly. 2014-03-22T02:28:26Z -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-03-22T02:28:42Z Ah. Any suggestions for learing Scheme then? 2014-03-22T02:28:59Z Scheme is a small language -- I'd read through the spec. 2014-03-22T02:29:14Z is guile actually standard scheme? 2014-03-22T02:29:20Z The little schemer is recommended by some people, and you'll get a better reception in #scheme. 2014-03-22T02:29:36Z Oh sorry, I didn't know there was a #scheme 2014-03-22T02:29:50Z r5 and most of r6, they way. 2014-03-22T02:29:54Z er, say. 2014-03-22T02:30:06Z oh, well r5rs is easy enough. 2014-03-22T02:30:13Z I don't have a problem with scheme, but some people get their knickers in a twist. 2014-03-22T02:30:52Z crixxxus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 2014-03-22T02:31:27Z bike: The only tricky bit in scheme is the first class continuations, and everyone mostly agrees that they were a bad idea. 2014-03-22T02:31:46Z I mean, reading the standard, like you said. 2014-03-22T02:32:19Z Ah, I thought you meant for the Guile implementors. :) 2014-03-22T02:33:05Z I was just 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Connection reset by peer) 2014-03-22T06:36:30Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T06:37:25Z pjb: or, why aren't you asking whether PHP is classified as a declarative language. (But I guess if you asked it would be in #php and we wouldn't know you've asked anyways). 2014-03-22T06:37:33Z vladsot: because my background is in pure math, I've been approaching this stuff from the declarative language <-> type theory <-> category theory correspondence. I'm glacially trying to wrap my head around how to analyze programing languages using category theory. I've started to look at list since it is sufficiently elegant to deserve a nice mathematical treatment. 2014-03-22T06:37:36Z vladsot: lisp* 2014-03-22T06:39:09Z pjb: Formal semantics of programming languages are usually given in a declarative form (cf. for example r5rs). Perhaps you may want to apply category theory on the formal semantics of the languages? 2014-03-22T06:39:10Z beach: vladsot: Lisp is elegant for sure, but in some respects it is a traditional multi-paradigm language, allowing imperative, functional, and object-oriented programming styles, but not enforcing any of them. 2014-03-22T06:39:27Z pjb: vladsot: also, have a look at ACL2. 2014-03-22T06:41:38Z diadara quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T06:41:45Z vladsot: what's the formal semantics for lisp? 2014-03-22T06:42:15Z pjb: I don't think anybody has established a formal semantics of Common Lisp. It'd be rather hard to do (but no harder than C). 2014-03-22T06:42:36Z diadara joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:42:42Z pjb: ACL2 uses a subset of CL for which it has theories, so as to be able to prove programs written in ACL2. 2014-03-22T06:42:45Z vladsot: mccarthy's (tiny) lisp would be fine for me. 2014-03-22T06:43:27Z pjb: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/moore/acl2/ 2014-03-22T06:43:34Z JPeterson joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:44:22Z vladsot: actually a more pressing question which I might as well ask. Is the claim that I've seen from category theorists that programming languages correspond to type theories true? 2014-03-22T06:44:29Z pjb: AIM-8 lisp is defined by an AIM-8 program. This is not exactly a formal semantic declarative description of the language stricto-sensu (there may even be some category error due to interpreting the language in itself). 2014-03-22T06:44:45Z pjb: But it's small enough a language that you could probably easily define a formal semantic for it. 2014-03-22T06:45:12Z pjb: You might want to modify it to include lexical bindings/closures in it. 2014-03-22T06:45:14Z innertracks joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:45:33Z pjb: (this was the original intent, after all). 2014-03-22T06:47:17Z pjb: Also, perhaps poplog could be used http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/poplog/freepoplog.html perhaps they have some tools to extract the semantics from programs, that you could use in practice, I don't know. 2014-03-22T06:48:22Z McMAGIC--Copy joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:48:36Z vladsot: interesting... 2014-03-22T06:50:02Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-03-22T06:50:08Z vladsot: thanks. 2014-03-22T06:50:22Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:50:46Z pjb: for aim-8 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/ 2014-03-22T06:51:22Z diadara quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T06:51:48Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:52:00Z Shinmera joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:52:40Z ltbarcl__ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T06:53:12Z vladsot quit (Quit: vladsot) 2014-03-22T06:53:26Z ltbarcly_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-03-22T06:55:29Z ltbarcl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-03-22T06:55:44Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:03:10Z lispoon joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:04:37Z ltbarcly_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-03-22T07:05:23Z ltbarcly_ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:05:41Z lispoon left #lisp 2014-03-22T07:06:16Z MoALTz joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:07:22Z lispoon joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:08:58Z lispoon left #lisp 2014-03-22T07:15:05Z innertracks quit (Quit: innertracks) 2014-03-22T07:17:42Z ltbarcly_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-03-22T07:18:03Z ltbarcly joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:18:18Z ltbarcly quit (Client Quit) 2014-03-22T07:27:38Z Bike quit (Quit: nine hour) 2014-03-22T07:30:47Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:34:56Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:35:34Z Hydan joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:38:28Z axion: if i dump an executable with sbcl, is it possible to refer to the path location the binary was started from in code? 2014-03-22T07:41:37Z pranavrc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T07:42:43Z Poenikatu joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:42:43Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:43:47Z Poenikatu: Could somebody look at this paste "http://paste.lisp.org/+31DF" and tell me why both LispWorks and Clozure CL do not fault when "foo" is called by (foo 0 1 2)? 2014-03-22T07:47:35Z vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 2014-03-22T07:48:29Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T07:53:26Z Poenikatu: Even worse, Clozure CL, sbcl and LispWorks all call (foo-1 0 1 2) without a fault. Why does the form "(/ 1 0)" in "foo-1" not cause a fault? 2014-03-22T07:54:30Z Poenikatu: At least, ccl reports the division by zero when it compiles "foo-1", but the compiled file produces no error for the call "(foo-1 0 1 2)". Why? 2014-03-22T07:56:33Z anster joined #lisp 2014-03-22T07:59:40Z jewel joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:04:49Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T08:06:46Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:10:53Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-03-22T08:14:31Z beach: Poenikatu: I am guessing that the division is removed because it has no side effects and it does not influence the return value. 2014-03-22T08:15:32Z beach: Poenikatu: If you wrap the division in (PRINT (/ ....)), you will get the error. 2014-03-22T08:15:36Z Poenikatu: beach: I can understand that for foo-1, but what about foo? The compiler cannot determine the values of *zero* and one at compile time 2014-03-22T08:16:47Z beach: Poenikatu: I am sorry, I wasn't clear. I am guessing that even before the arguments of the division are checked, the compiler determines that it IS a division (and thus has no side effects), and since it is in a position where only side effects count, it remove it entirely. 2014-03-22T08:18:50Z Poenikatu: beach: Well, that's a good explanation, but what really bugs me is that in the documentation of the LispWorks debugger, the code for foo is given in the form (compile (defun ...)) and shows that the debugger is called when the form (foo 0 1 2) is called 2014-03-22T08:19:48Z beach: I am sorry, I can't help you with the LispWorks documentation. 2014-03-22T08:19:53Z axion: well on linux /proc/self/exe points to the location of the running executable. in sbcl this points to /usr/bin/sbcl for me, but if i dump an executable image, the location of this file is nil. any other suggestions for getting the location of the running executable, so i can distribute resource files alongside it to friends that dont have lisp installed? 2014-03-22T08:19:59Z Vutral joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:20:38Z Poenikatu: beach: Ok. I have reported the fact that the debugger documentation was clearly written for an earlier version of the debugger. 2014-03-22T08:21:10Z beach: Poenikatu: Are you sure that the example given in the documentation is exactly what you showed us? 2014-03-22T08:21:43Z beach: Poenikatu: Like did it also have (list #'(lambda () one) two) as the last form? 2014-03-22T08:22:51Z Poenikatu: beach: Yes, it did. The only difference between thedefinition of foo given in the documentation and what I pasted is that the defun of foo was embedded in a (compile ...) form 2014-03-22T08:23:03Z beach: OK. 2014-03-22T08:23:49Z Poenikatu: beach: I put the defun for foo into a file to see whether it would make any difference. It didn't. Same result. No faulting for (foo 0 1 2). The documentation said it would. 2014-03-22T08:23:53Z robot-beethoven quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-03-22T08:24:00Z beach: Poenikatu: Another thing you might want to try is to proclaim DEBUG 3 and OPTIMIZE 0 and see if you still get no error. 2014-03-22T08:24:26Z Poenikatu: beach: Good idea. I'll try that. Away for a few minutes 2014-03-22T08:26:11Z anster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T08:29:11Z Poenikatu: This is what I put in foo: (declare (special *zero*) (optimize (debug 3) (safety 0))). Compiled Ok, same result for (foo 0 1 2) 2014-03-22T08:29:22Z zjxv quit (Quit: QUIT) 2014-03-22T08:30:33Z beach: Oh, I meant SPEED 0 rather than OPTIMIZE 0. Duh! 2014-03-22T08:30:41Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:30:45Z beach: You don't want to do SAFETY 0. 2014-03-22T08:31:04Z beach: (SPEED 0) (DEBUG 3) (SAFETY 3) 2014-03-22T08:31:40Z waisl joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:35:14Z Poenikatu: beach: Thanks. Not used declare before. 2014-03-22T08:35:54Z foreignFunction joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:36:12Z Poenikatu: beach: Did that and found no difference, but when I surrounded the (/ ...) with (print ...), I got the division-by-zero result. So it looks as though your explanation is the truth! 2014-03-22T08:36:35Z beach: Yeah. With PRINT you get a side effect, so the compiler can't remove it. 2014-03-22T08:37:00Z Poenikatu: beach: I hadn't realised just how clever lisp compilers can be 2014-03-22T08:37:28Z beach: Poenikatu: I just verified that this behavior is conforming. 2014-03-22T08:37:43Z Poenikatu: beach: Which behaviour? 2014-03-22T08:37:50Z beach: What you observed. 2014-03-22T08:37:59Z Poenikatu: beach: Is it? 2014-03-22T08:38:09Z beach: Poenikatu: The CLHS says the consequences are UNDEFINED if the second value of / is 0. 2014-03-22T08:38:26Z beach: This give the compiler carte blanche to remove it if there are no side effects. 2014-03-22T08:38:58Z beach: Poenikatu: It is a simple optimization that I imagine all compilers would implement. 2014-03-22T08:39:30Z Poenikatu: beach: Not being a compiler writer, I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it 2014-03-22T08:39:53Z Code_Man` joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:40:22Z beach: Still, the LW documentation needs to be updated, it seems. 2014-03-22T08:40:23Z Joreji joined #lisp 2014-03-22T08:40:28Z Poenikatu: I better write to LispWorks again saying that I now understand why the error doesn't appear. 2014-03-22T08:41:06Z beach: Yeah, maybe so. 2014-03-22T08:41:11Z Poenikatu: beach: Yes, the LW docs are definitely out-of-date. The doc'n for the REPL debugger is particularly important. 2014-03-22T08:42:27Z Poenikatu: beach: I tried the example debugging session and couldn't do the whole thing because the debugger did not act as the doc'n said it would. Not helpful at all. Still, it's a marvellous tool for developing CL software. 2014-03-22T08:43:04Z beach must take Poenikatu's word for it. 2014-03-22T08:43:06Z Poenikatu: beach: Thanks for your remarks and help 2014-03-22T08:43:10Z beach: Sure. 2014-03-22T08:44:03Z Poenikatu: beach: I was so impressed with the evaluation copy that I forked out the credit to buy the Professional Edition. Now £1404 the poorer. 2014-03-22T08:44:41Z beach: Good for you. 2014-03-22T08:44:51Z beach: [except the part about being poorer] 2014-03-22T08:45:33Z Poenikatu: beach: My main project is a new desktop for Linux: Pixie. Watch this space! Unfortunately, if it ever becomes a Debian pkg, it'll have to be non-free 2014-03-22T08:46:04Z Poenikatu: beach: Poorer in cash, richer in tools. Nothing like the right tool for the job! 2014-03-22T08:46:12Z beach: Why does it have to be non-free? 2014-03-22T08:46:38Z AGinsberg: Poenikatu: You probably could have gotten it for free 2014-03-22T08:46:48Z Poenikatu: AGinsberg: How? 2014-03-22T08:46:51Z AGinsberg: (illegally) 2014-03-22T08:46:59Z Poenikatu: AGinsberg: How? 2014-03-22T08:47:05Z AGinsberg: torrentz.eu 2014-03-22T08:47:29Z Poenikatu: AGinsberg: What, a LispWorks IDE? Surely not. I'll try a search for it 2014-03-22T08:47:40Z beach: Please discuss illegal matters privately. 2014-03-22T08:48:01Z axion: this channel is publicly logged with your hostname 2014-03-22T08:48:08Z beach: Poenikatu: Why does it have to be non-free? 2014-03-22T08:48:40Z AGinsberg: Well, doesn't seem to be on torrentz.eu but might be somewhere else 2014-03-22T08:49:02Z Poenikatu: beach: Two reasons. The LW implementation of the CLIM is proprietary. The CAPI is proprietary and mcclim does not compile on LW 2014-03-22T08:50:36Z beach: Unless you plan to use CAPI, it would probably not be hard (compared to the rest of your effort) to port what you did to (say) SBCL with McCLIM. 2014-03-22T08:50:39Z prxq_: Poenikatu: maybe you can decide on a choice of techs that is free. 2014-03-22T08:50:52Z prxq_ is now known as prxq 2014-03-22T08:51:52Z Poenikatu: beach: Yes, I take your point. The trouble is that the LW CLIM is quite different from McCLIM. No DREI for example 2014-03-22T08:52:00Z prxq: Poenikatu: also, improving current CL GUI capabilities would be a great contribution! 2014-03-22T08:52:41Z Poenikatu would dearly like to make the pkg free 2014-03-22T08:54:22Z Poenikatu knows she has to do a *lot* of learning. CLOS currently, then PAIP and then On Lisp 2014-03-22T08:55:43Z jaimef: it's FUN! 2014-03-22T08:55:45Z jaimef: don't forget tht :P 2014-03-22T08:56:01Z Shinmera: I still haven't had the time to pick up PAIP. 2014-03-22T08:56:06Z Shinmera sighs 2014-03-22T08:57:32Z jaimef: ,paip 2014-03-22T08:57:50Z jaimef: ooo 2014-03-22T08:58:17Z beach: minion: Please tell jaimef about PAIP. 2014-03-22T08:58:18Z minion: PAIP: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 2014-03-22T08:58:24Z beach: bah! 2014-03-22T08:58:50Z Poenikatu: jaimef: I don't mind saying that, after 18 years trying to rescuscitate Algol 68, CL is a breath of fresh air. 2014-03-22T08:59:27Z Shinmera: beach: I think the dot messed that up 2014-03-22T09:00:10Z jaimef: :D 2014-03-22T09:00:23Z Poenikatu: Must go. Time for the daily dump 2014-03-22T09:01:09Z ehu joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:01:23Z beach: Shinmera: I doubt it. 2014-03-22T09:02:22Z jaimef quit (Excess Flood) 2014-03-22T09:03:53Z Poenikatu: Dump started. If you go to my web-site, click on the src directory link and download "pv", you'll see what can be done with Algol 68 and the Xforms library. You'll need the Debian package libforms2 and libforms-bin 2014-03-22T09:04:05Z Poenikatu: http://www.poenikatu.co.uk/ 2014-03-22T09:04:29Z Poenikatu: I'll upload the help file 2014-03-22T09:05:36Z Poenikatu: Done. pv is a file viewer. 2014-03-22T09:06:22Z Poenikatu: Yes, CL is definitely fun. 2014-03-22T09:06:23Z jaimef joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:06:38Z cibs joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:06:43Z tali713 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:06:45Z zz_karupanerura joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:07:53Z zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 2014-03-22T09:15:06Z beach is too busy with Lisp to have time for Algol 68 :( 2014-03-22T09:15:25Z diadara joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:15:26Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:16:08Z oleo: beach i have defined a character macro at top-level in listener but i get not result when using the listener but i get a result when using the sbcl-repl 2014-03-22T09:16:22Z beach: oleo: I think I know why. 2014-03-22T09:16:27Z oleo: i tried using format then it works but i want a return result 2014-03-22T09:16:56Z oleo: i tried also force-output, finish-output has nothing todo with it ..... 2014-03-22T09:16:59Z beach: oleo: As I recall, the listener forks a thread to evaluate its forms. 2014-03-22T09:17:04Z oleo: ahha 2014-03-22T09:17:23Z beach: oleo: This is a bad idea, but it was done that way so that the computation could be interrupted. 2014-03-22T09:17:30Z oleo: and how do you solve that now ? 2014-03-22T09:17:35Z oleo: bleh 2014-03-22T09:17:48Z beach: Don't fork a thread! 2014-03-22T09:18:02Z beach: Doing so has too many negative consequences. 2014-03-22T09:18:57Z beach: If you want to look into that, it would be great. 2014-03-22T09:18:59Z oleo: hmmm, you mean no clim-sys:make-process ? 2014-03-22T09:19:07Z beach: Yes. 2014-03-22T09:19:27Z beach: As I recall, there is a thread that does nothing but distribute events. 2014-03-22T09:19:27Z oleo: oO 2014-03-22T09:19:48Z beach: Perhaps that thread could interrupt the listener thread when a particular key combination is seen. 2014-03-22T09:20:25Z oleo: i'll read into processes, maybe there's a way to return to that process..... 2014-03-22T09:20:43Z beach: "return to that process"? 2014-03-22T09:21:15Z beach: The problem is when you start an infinite computation from the listener. Then it can not be interrupted. 2014-03-22T09:21:46Z beach: But if the event thread could interrupt the listener thread, that problem would go away. 2014-03-22T09:22:43Z mishoo joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:23:19Z nug700 quit (Quit: bye) 2014-03-22T09:24:49Z francogrex joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:25:48Z CrazyWoods quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2014-03-22T09:26:25Z Poenikatu: beach: I should think so too, and, in any case, CL is a much better language than Algol 68. 2014-03-22T09:26:58Z JamesF joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:26:59Z beach: Poenikatu: I don't think I ever used Algol 68. But I read about it. 2014-03-22T09:27:31Z beach: Poenikatu: When Pascal came out, most people decided to use it instead. 2014-03-22T09:27:47Z Poenikatu: beach: Damn fine language as far as imperative languages go, but, because it's context sensitive, very difficult to write a compiler for it. 2014-03-22T09:28:07Z Poenikatu: beach: Pascal is a toy language compare with Algol 68 2014-03-22T09:28:12Z beach: Yeah, the grammar is messy. But didn't they define it using attribute grammars? 2014-03-22T09:28:14Z Poenikatu: *compared 2014-03-22T09:28:35Z beach: Pascal is definitely a toy. Too bad we didn't realize that at the time :( 2014-03-22T09:28:36Z Poenikatu: beach: Two-level grammar (Weingaarden) 2014-03-22T09:28:40Z beach: Ah, OK. 2014-03-22T09:29:00Z CrazyWoods joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:29:12Z Poenikatu: beach: I must go now: I want to go on reading Sonja's book on CLOS. 2014-03-22T09:29:23Z beach: Poenikatu: Good luck. See you later. 2014-03-22T09:29:34Z Poenikatu left #lisp 2014-03-22T09:33:11Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:36:31Z nffff joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:37:28Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T09:37:37Z nha_ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:42:36Z dmiles joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:45:38Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T09:51:11Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T09:51:21Z varjag joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:52:17Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:54:25Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-03-22T09:54:27Z pranavrc quit (Changing host) 2014-03-22T09:54:27Z pranavrc joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:11:37Z kcj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:13:03Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:13:08Z c4h joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:13:29Z francogrex quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2014-03-22T10:17:59Z diadara quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:18:21Z McMAGIC--Copy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:21:11Z McMAGIC--Copy joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:22:18Z JamesF quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:22:59Z rsh_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:27:07Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:29:07Z oleo: seems like join-thread would solve it.... 2014-03-22T10:31:05Z beach: When would you do a join-thread? 2014-03-22T10:33:05Z diadara joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:34:06Z oleo: to get the results of it's func 2014-03-22T10:41:37Z Fullma quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:42:17Z Fullma joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:43:09Z mc40 quit (Quit: mc40) 2014-03-22T10:44:34Z mc40 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:46:55Z loicbsd joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:52:12Z Twipply joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:53:18Z Vivitron` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:53:28Z Jayk97 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:55:39Z Vivitron joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:56:25Z pjb: beach: Pascal's not a toy. Several OSes were written in it, and quite commercial successes at that (eg. MacOS, but not only). And to contrast, C was really hard to use on MacOS in the early 80's, for lack of OS support, compared to Pascal. 2014-03-22T10:56:32Z KCL quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-03-22T10:56:47Z p_l: as for OS written in Pascal, classic Windows 2014-03-22T10:56:49Z pjb: You can make toy implementations of any language, and you can use any language to implement kernels. 2014-03-22T10:56:51Z beach: pjb: Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "Pascal". 2014-03-22T10:57:20Z Malice joined #lisp 2014-03-22T10:57:22Z p_l: beach: iirc, Wirth himself complained about "practical" use of Pascal outside of teaching, didn't he? 2014-03-22T10:57:41Z pjb: we could say the same about scheme too. 2014-03-22T10:57:43Z beach: p_l: I don't know. Never heard that. 2014-03-22T10:59:47Z p_l: hmm. Might be incorrect memory, then 2014-03-22T10:59:56Z p_l does a quick search on the net 2014-03-22T11:00:07Z beach: p_l: If anyone has incorrect memory, it's me. 2014-03-22T11:01:04Z loicbsd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T11:01:08Z p_l: beach: nah, you provided the impetus to check, so there :) 2014-03-22T11:01:53Z loicbsd joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:04:50Z jarod_chen joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:06:58Z Beetny_ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:09:11Z hitecnologys_ joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:11:44Z hitecnologys quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-03-22T11:15:29Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-03-22T11:19:34Z ggole joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:19:51Z drmeister joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:26:54Z beach: Modularity question: I am working on the `string' module for SICL and I want to release it as such. However, it uses some of the same conditions as the `sequence' module, for instance for signaling that START and END are not valid bounding indices. How should I organize all this? Make the `string' module depend on a `conditions' module? 2014-03-22T11:27:34Z beach: One possible reason against is that the `conditions' module could be fairly large. 2014-03-22T11:29:35Z hitecnologys_ is now known as hitecnologys 2014-03-22T11:31:38Z beach: How about if the `conditions' module is organized so that individual components (i.e. files) would concern few other modules? Then someone who needs only the `string' module can just make a special version of the `conditions' module, omitting unwanted files. 2014-03-22T11:32:14Z pjb: Make a sequence-condition modules ;-) 2014-03-22T11:32:43Z beach: Hmm. I need to think about that. It could become a bit messy :) 2014-03-22T11:38:23Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-03-22T11:40:21Z nffff: I've figured out how to "serialize" a struct with (format) but how do I take a string "#S(POINT :x 50 :y 50)" and turn it back into a struct? 2014-03-22T11:40:56Z pjb: (read-from-string "#S(POINT :x 50 :y 50)") 2014-03-22T11:41:10Z pjb: as long as you have a (defstruct point x y) in the *package*. 2014-03-22T11:41:51Z beach: nffff: Or set *package* to the keyword package when you print it. 2014-03-22T11:41:52Z JuanDaugherty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T11:44:02Z nffff: awesome, thanks pjb & beach 2014-03-22T11:44:16Z beach: Anytime! 2014-03-22T11:48:09Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T11:53:57Z hitecnologys: nffff: you can also take a look at cl-store. It's lightweight and nice. 2014-03-22T12:01:45Z nffff: hitecnologys: will do, I saw it on cliki but kind of glanced over tbh 2014-03-22T12:03:45Z AGinsberg: Is do the best function for infinite loops or is there a better loop function for that? 2014-03-22T12:04:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:05:26Z Shinmera: (loop) 2014-03-22T12:11:28Z fiveop joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:12:02Z Colleen joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:14:05Z ustunozgur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T12:14:44Z Beetny_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T12:26:23Z pnpuff joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:27:54Z rune1 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:29:22Z rune1: Can someone help me with this recursive function, http://paste.lisp.org/+31DH . I have written the error CCL gives me at the end. 2014-03-22T12:33:16Z Karl_Dscc: rune1: first test if null then evenp 2014-03-22T12:34:42Z rune1: Still seems to give me the same error 2014-03-22T12:35:15Z rune1: I'm calling it on '(1337 37 33) which all should be odd 2014-03-22T12:35:25Z Vutral quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-03-22T12:36:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T12:38:14Z ggole: Are my-alloddp and alloddp supposed to be the same thing? 2014-03-22T12:38:29Z zacharias joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:38:44Z rune1: holy shit 2014-03-22T12:38:49Z rune1: i'm stupid.. thank you 2014-03-22T12:39:17Z ggole: (By the way, this would be better called all-odd-p, and more easily written as (defun all-odd-p (list) (every #'oddp list)) 2014-03-22T12:39:28Z ggole: That's a pretty common error. 2014-03-22T12:40:21Z rune1: ggole: I'm training my recursion at the moment, with some reimplementations :) 2014-03-22T12:40:45Z rune1: ggole: but thanks for the naming correction, i should read up on thoses 2014-03-22T12:41:49Z ggole: The convention is roughly that single words have a p appended, and multiple words have a -p appended. 2014-03-22T12:44:42Z ykm joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:45:31Z rune1: Ah.. quick question then, would the google common lisp guide be the best place to read up on stuff like that? 2014-03-22T12:46:07Z pjb: http://cliki.net/Getting+Started 2014-03-22T12:48:30Z ykm left #lisp 2014-03-22T12:48:48Z ggole: I haven't looked at that for a while: it's probably more or less reasonable 2014-03-22T12:49:14Z ykm joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:50:00Z rune1: It seems quite proper. thanks 2014-03-22T12:51:09Z ggole: One other minor thing: usually t and nil are not capitalised. 2014-03-22T12:51:44Z rune1 quit (Quit: rune1) 2014-03-22T12:51:47Z pjb: Or more exactly, it's better to keep a consistent capitalization. Either everything in uppercase, or everything in lowercase. 2014-03-22T12:52:08Z pjb: Otherwise you make your sources harder to read with non-default readtable-case settings. 2014-03-22T12:52:38Z ggole: Mmm, yes. 2014-03-22T12:52:58Z mrSpec quit (Quit: mrSpec) 2014-03-22T12:53:15Z mrSpec joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:53:23Z pnpuff quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T12:56:38Z kiuma joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:58:42Z anster joined #lisp 2014-03-22T12:58:53Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2014-03-22T13:00:53Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:01:08Z ykm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2014-03-22T13:01:24Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:06:58Z Beetny joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:18:45Z nand1 joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:20:34Z sohail quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2014-03-22T13:22:40Z Asgeir joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:28:12Z nand1 quit (Read error: Operation timed out) 2014-03-22T13:29:18Z nffff quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T13:29:43Z ustunozgur joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:36:03Z Asgeir: hi! I'm writing, in an object oriented style, an application where the user is asked an email adress. In order to check if a string makes a valid email adress, I first wanted to create a new string subtype/subclass and place the checking code into its constructor. The problem is: string/simple-string are system classes and cannot be subclassed. I want to be able to treat my email adresses as traditional strings, therefore I want to avoid 2014-03-22T13:36:18Z Asgeir: Is there an idiomatic way to do that ? 2014-03-22T13:37:11Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-03-22T13:38:45Z M00R1Z joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:40:13Z Krystof: why do you want to treat your e-mail addresses as strings? 2014-03-22T13:40:23Z Krystof: what stringlike operations are you hoping to do on them? 2014-03-22T13:40:24Z dkcl joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:42:58Z hiroakip joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:44:43Z sohail joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:49:47Z Asgeir: Krystof: you're right. 2014-03-22T13:50:08Z jarod_chen quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2014-03-22T13:50:09Z Asgeir: thanks for your answer, my question was a bit silly. 2014-03-22T13:50:48Z Asgeir: Another question that comes to my mind is: why restrict the inheritance of classes like simple-string or sequence ? 2014-03-22T13:51:16Z Asgeir: With this restriction, you can't define new kinds of sequences, for example 2014-03-22T13:52:33Z kwark joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:52:44Z LiamH joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:53:13Z Krystof: well 2014-03-22T13:53:39Z qiemem joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:53:42Z Krystof: why restrict them? So that the implementation can exploit the knowledge that they will never be subclassed, allowing compilation to specialized (fast, compact) code 2014-03-22T13:54:06Z Krystof: imagine if you could subclass the BIT class, and what that would do to arithmetic and logical operations 2014-03-22T13:54:20Z Krystof: on the other hand, some implementations do allow you to subclass sequence meaningfully 2014-03-22T13:54:44Z Krystof: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Extensible-Sequences for example 2014-03-22T13:55:29Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-03-22T13:56:10Z Krystof: but basically, there are tradeoffs between open implementations and difficulty in providing efficiency 2014-03-22T13:57:13Z dkcl is now known as dandersen 2014-03-22T13:57:55Z Asgeir: okay, so that's about efficiency 2014-03-22T13:58:03Z chameco joined #lisp 2014-03-22T13:58:19Z sirdancealot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-03-22T13:59:00Z slarti joined #lisp 2014-03-22T14:00:52Z pjb: Asgeir: Yes, it's about efficiency. Notice also that this doesn't prevent you to define a subclassable string class. 2014-03-22T14:01:10Z pjb: Only it won't be CL:STRING, it will be ASGEIR:STRING ;-) 2014-03-22T14:03:08Z BrianRice quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:16Z seangrove quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:17Z Nshag quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:25Z MightyJoe quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:26Z jackdaniel quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:26Z rtoym quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:30Z nuba quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:31Z luis quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:32Z adsisco quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:35Z hpd quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:35Z Tristam quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:36Z killmaster quit (*.net *.split) 2014-03-22T14:03:36Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split)