00:00:21 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@25.red-80-29-94.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:51 -!- nisstyre [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 00:02:00 hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:02:47 kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 00:03:47 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.203.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:04:19 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:05:32 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.192.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:08 -!- wgreenhouse [~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:25 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:06:54 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:09:02 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:37 -!- WeirdEnthusiast [Elite6963@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-jummhbwwjgopqrde] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:10:25 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.160] has joined #lisp 00:11:10 wgreenhouse [~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse] has joined #lisp 00:11:12 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:55 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:11 -!- Guest57003 is now known as mtd 00:16:26 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:19:31 oleo: SLIME is a lisp IDE, thus relevant 00:21:02 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:46 and what do you think mcclim is ? 00:21:49 lol 00:22:07 the problem is not with mcclim, it's how you talk about it 00:23:26 well everytime i encounter some oddity i try to report here backed by some image or so, the effects which i mean to demonstrate by that or to ask someone if it is the same on his side if he uses it ofc.... 00:25:02 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Sleep Now] 00:25:18 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-182-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:25:22 anyway... any chemists lurking out there? 00:25:25 -!- ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25:41 drmeister may or may not be a chemist 00:26:01 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:41 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-239-155.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:27:05 WeirdEnthusiast [Elite6963@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-intdduhbacrgpzep] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:30:06 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:32:17 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 00:32:59 -!- __prefect [~prefect@koln-4db41025.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35:57 -!- yzzyx [~user@host86-173-68-125.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:53 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:13 hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 00:40:31 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-92.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:50:08 how can i convert a string to an integer without having to catch an error for junk in the string, instead just converting to an empty string? 00:50:31 or nil 00:50:35 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:38 (parse-integer "123" :junk-allowed t) 00:50:49 aha thanks 00:50:55 heh 00:51:09 (parse-integer "123look,junk" :junk-allowed t) will give 123 00:51:30 oh that saves so much work. i'm on a deadline...job interview code project :) 00:51:51 -!- zajn [~zajn@2607:f140:400:b003:58f5:5eb2:ceaf:ebef] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:51:57 but parsing integers is so easy! 00:52:14 Joreji [~thomas@155-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 00:54:20 (loop for x across "123junk" for result = (digit-char-p x) then (+ (* result 10) (or (digit-char-p x) (loop-finish))) finally (return result)) => 123 00:55:46 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:56:29 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 00:57:10 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:57:30 (reduce (lambda (x y) (+ (* x 10) (digit-char-p y))) "123" :initial-value 0) => 123 00:58:24 zajn [~zajn@2607:f140:400:b003:2821:685a:7382:79c2] has joined #lisp 00:58:37 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:59:04 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has joined #lisp 00:59:09 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0002.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:11 with junk handling: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141543 00:59:59 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:44 sohail [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:44 -!- sohail [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:01:44 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:01:58 I've never quite managed to get over how dense Lisp gets. 01:02:48 (While still comprehensible. Try that in C.) 01:02:53 better: (reduce (lambda (x y) (+ (* x 10) y)) "123" :key #'digit-char-p) 01:04:29 Beetny_ [~Beetny@ppp118-208-61-39.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:07 -!- uzo is now known as uzoZzzleeping 01:09:08 what about something more crazy: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141543#1 ? 01:10:20 or better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141543#2 01:12:49 i bet the interviewer will be pleased with such a solution 01:14:31 -!- varjag [uid4973@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-noptudgwtsfwmnad] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:19:42 *Odin-* wonders if stassats` either took unnecessary drugs or forgot necessary ones... 01:19:57 you don't like circular lists? 01:21:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:22:59 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:31 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225181139.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:36 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:29:46 actually they dont get to see the code, just the product. applying for CTO of a firm and i can choose my own stack :) 01:30:25 now if only i knew how to create QR images in lisp 01:30:39 or...period 01:31:11 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:31:38 that's easy, you just need some Galois field knowledge! 01:31:43 ... 01:32:11 Odin-: i think stassats` is just bored heh 01:33:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 01:34:36 http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Reed%E2%80%93Solomon_codes_for_coders looks neat 01:34:56 maybe i can finally take up Xach's challenge 01:35:35 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:37:51 frkout [~frkout@47.145.218.133.dy.bbexcite.jp] has joined #lisp 01:38:22 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:39:18 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:41:06 frkout_ [~frkout@p2045-ipngn1006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:41:16 -!- frkout_ [~frkout@p2045-ipngn1006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:41:44 frkout_ [~frkout@vpn.dwango.co.jp] has joined #lisp 01:42:38 how can i convert g-u-t to x minutes after its value? 01:42:39 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has joined #lisp 01:43:01 + (* 60 x)? 01:43:27 do you like leap seconds and DST? 01:43:35 nah...thatll work for now 01:43:37 thanks 01:43:57 da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has joined #lisp 01:44:01 -!- frkout [~frkout@47.145.218.133.dy.bbexcite.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:12 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 01:45:11 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B148B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:46:15 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47:12 whartung_ [~whartung@wsip-70-183-27-154.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:01 -!- da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:48:39 whartung__ [~whartung@wsip-70-183-27-154.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:41 -!- whartung [~whartung@wsip-70-183-27-154.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:48:42 -!- whartung__ is now known as whartung 01:51:37 -!- whartung_ [~whartung@wsip-70-183-27-154.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:56:28 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 01:57:58 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.119.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:00:23 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:10 -!- zajn [~zajn@2607:f140:400:b003:2821:685a:7382:79c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:25 srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 02:03:05 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-107-15.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 02:03:06 -!- wgreenhouse [~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:03:23 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:04:59 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:20 wgreenhouse [~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse] has joined #lisp 02:06:25 -!- pjb [~user@AMontsouris-651-1-1-111.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14:02 sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-239-155.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:28 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Quit: percopal] 02:19:58 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 02:38:20 -!- marsambot is now known as marsam 02:39:26 normanrichards [~textual@99.179.96.67] has joined #lisp 02:40:33 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:47 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f65f4c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:41:37 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:43:59 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f68f92.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 02:44:33 -!- normanrichards [~textual@99.179.96.67] has quit [] 02:45:10 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 02:53:22 ssj4mo [ssj4mo@69.122.63.179] has joined #lisp 02:53:53 ssj4mo_e [ssj4mo@ool-457a3fb3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:11 -!- ssj4mo [ssj4mo@69.122.63.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:15 -!- ssj4mo_e [ssj4mo@ool-457a3fb3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:54:34 ssj4mo [ssj4mo@ool-457a3fb3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:50 normanrichards [~textual@99.179.96.67] has joined #lisp 02:56:24 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:57:31 michael_lee [~michael_l@113.139.75.121] has joined #lisp 02:57:43 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:31 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02:21 -!- marsam is now known as marsambot 03:08:26 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:08:31 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-142-79.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:08:38 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:08:41 Good morning everyone! 03:09:07 -!- _8680_ [~8680@2002:4404:712c:0:c97c:bd2c:2646:a817] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:09:55 _8680_ [~8680@2002:4404:712c:0:b034:d8c4:6b4b:dea5] has joined #lisp 03:10:12 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:36 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has joined #lisp 03:11:29 antonv [~user@93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 03:11:51 does anyone know a query language for CL data structures? 03:12:06 Common Lisp 03:12:16 Heh, you beat me to it. 03:16:20 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 03:16:42 beach: hello 03:16:52 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:18 -!- effy [~x@222.131.153.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:20:33 effy [~x@222.131.153.216] has joined #lisp 03:21:12 -!- Joreji [~thomas@155-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:21:19 doomrobo [~doomrobo@unaffiliated/doomrobo] has joined #lisp 03:23:45 phadthai: What are you up to these days? 03:24:03 macin [~macin@27.61.83.190] has joined #lisp 03:30:56 beach: Lisp-wise? Nothing much, although an in-progress IDS (unfortunately closed source for now, but that might change); I wish I could put some time in ECL, unfortunately Juanjo can't maintain it anymore 03:31:51 ECL is being maintained now 03:32:10 or at least in the past two weeks 03:32:10 well yes, slightly :) 03:32:34 minion: What does IDS stand for? 03:32:34 Iconostasion Decerniture Spoke 03:32:41 heh 03:33:26 it's an intrusion detection system 03:33:30 how do i parse a string decimal like with parse-integer, but keeping the decimal and fraction? 03:33:36 phadthai: Ah, OK. 03:33:37 i even ended up with ECL commit access, without wanting it 03:34:05 hydan [59676e10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.103.110.16] has joined #lisp 03:34:06 minion: tell axion about parse-number 03:34:06 parse-number: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 03:34:31 thank you 03:35:14 ah no way in standard cl? 03:35:27 without a lot of work? 03:35:32 -!- ssj4mo [ssj4mo@ool-457a3fb3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:33 with a small custom function, sure 03:35:34 read-from-string, unsafe 03:35:48 (safely, I mean) 03:36:16 i suppose i could do that as its guaranteed to be numberp and displayed re-retrieved as text in html 03:37:35 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:38:29 is it submitted? it's unsafe 03:38:32 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.160] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38:35 at least sate *read-eval* to nil 03:38:37 set 03:38:38 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:38:53 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has joined #lisp 03:40:30 keen____ [~blackened@pdf8797f7.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:41:37 bgs100 [~bgs@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:41:46 and good like with reading #100000000000(h) 03:41:59 -!- keen___ [~blackened@p3b9310cc.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:44:48 da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has joined #lisp 03:47:18 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:48:43 -!- macin [~macin@27.61.83.190] has quit [Quit: used WLIrc] 03:49:23 -!- da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:50:21 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:23 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:01:59 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:02:28 -!- normanrichards [~textual@99.179.96.67] has quit [] 04:04:22 macin [~macin@106.208.74.56] has joined #lisp 04:14:54 drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:40 how can i get something such as (- 8.931873 8.9318) to not return scientific notation, but decimal with all the precision? 04:16:17 there's no such thing 04:16:43 how do i return in the example 0.000073? 04:17:11 scientific notation is just another way of displaying the same number 04:17:22 zajn [~zajn@108.205.50.54] has joined #lisp 04:17:44 it's the same as asking "how do i make 123 red" 04:17:49 i know this but 04:18:05 kcj [~casey@118-92-162-249.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:18:07 -!- kcj [~casey@118-92-162-249.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 04:18:07 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:18:25 if you want to print it, then use FORMAT 04:18:28 this is a bitcoin formula where the satoshi the last decimal place to the right needs to be visible as this is where all the information people look to compare with other sites 04:18:52 don't use floats for currency, jesus 04:19:08 but bitcoin is not a currency! 04:19:19 monopoly money can be a currency too. 04:19:24 -!- therik [~therik@212.50.110.108] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19:31 but seriously, floats are not for currency. use rationals and then print it however. 04:20:05 ok 04:20:09 get yourself a fancy IBM mainframe with decimal floating point accelerators 04:21:28 beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.78.137.60] has joined #lisp 04:25:46 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 04:31:17 seggy [~segmond@adsl-108-73-167-110.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:58 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:34:48 -!- segmond [~segmond@99.102.148.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:37 segimondu [~segmond@adsl-108-67-101-73.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:39 -!- beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.78.137.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:38:52 -!- segimondu [~segmond@adsl-108-67-101-73.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:39:27 segimondu [~segmond@adsl-108-73-160-211.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:38 beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.79.85.222] has joined #lisp 04:40:57 -!- seggy [~segmond@adsl-108-73-167-110.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:41:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:41:26 -!- stassats` [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:43:47 -!- bgs100 [~bgs@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 04:52:05 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 04:52:25 -!- beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.79.85.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:53:02 -!- jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:54:15 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has joined #lisp 04:55:39 -!- gmcastil [~user@97-124-168-220.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:56:50 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.20.69.50] has quit [Client Quit] 04:56:50 -!- staykov [~wiggin@cable.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:57:59 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58:15 beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.66.63.19] has joined #lisp 04:58:33 ok, how can i round a decimal to the 3rd decimal place, without format (keeping its type)? 04:58:41 staykov [~wiggin@cable.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 04:58:53 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.212.234] has joined #lisp 04:58:53 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.212.234] has quit [Changing host] 04:58:53 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 04:59:04 cyberfanat [~cyberfana@91.222.64.166] has joined #lisp 04:59:20 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59:48 axion: I think you are confused. 04:59:56 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 05:00:05 axion: Common Lisp does not have decimal numbers. 05:00:06 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:28 ok 05:02:09 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 05:04:10 -!- cyberfanat [~cyberfana@91.222.64.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:04:23 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:04:57 axion: Use either ratios or (scaled) integers. 05:05:04 -!- beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.66.63.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:06:35 axion: As Bike said, it is a very bad idea to use floats for calculations with money. 05:07:15 your customers will probably not be satisfied to know that you know how much money they have to within 10^-3 accuracy 05:10:11 That's not the main problem, though. 05:11:18 compound error 05:11:27 Exactly! 05:12:08 axion: I recommend you read that document (I forget the link) entitled something like "What every computer scientist should know about floating-point numbers." 05:12:34 The simplest thing to remember is that a floating point value represents an interval. 05:12:49 If you remember that, everything else is pretty obvious. 05:13:17 -!- Beetny_ 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05:49:58 -!- da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:50:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:52:20 beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@223.196.222.2] has joined #lisp 05:54:09 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 05:54:18 -!- frkout_ [~frkout@vpn.dwango.co.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:55:10 beingAwesome1 [~Thunderbi@49.14.234.56] has joined #lisp 05:57:11 -!- beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@223.196.222.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:58:34 beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@49.15.55.224] has joined #lisp 05:59:35 -!- beingAwesome1 [~Thunderbi@49.14.234.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:00:35 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 06:01:48 -!- r0b1 [~robert@subtle/contributor/robgleeson] has quit [Quit: brb] 06:02:53 -!- beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@49.15.55.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:04:59 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:05:36 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.121.205] has joined #lisp 06:06:11 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:06:37 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 06:07:04 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:32 beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.78.180.251] has joined #lisp 06:11:14 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.16.79] has joined #lisp 06:13:37 -!- beingAwesome [~Thunderbi@106.78.180.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:14:46 bocaneri [~bocaneri_@about/linux/staff/sauvin] has joined #lisp 06:16:35 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 06:16:35 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:02 Where can i search for good lisp packages/modules 06:28:41 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.16.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:30:51 zajn_ [~zajn@c-67-164-92-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:35 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.89.192] has joined #lisp 06:32:06 kami [~user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 06:32:12 Good morning. 06:34:04 -!- zajn [~zajn@108.205.50.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:38:01 Hello kami. 06:38:07 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@98.255.30.38] has joined #lisp 06:38:22 macin: Try common-lisp.net. 06:38:50 thanks beach 06:39:05 macin: I suppose you want to look at the source rather than just use the code, right? 06:39:21 yup :) 06:39:57 macin: i use google for that kind of research. and quicklisp, if i need access to some library quickly. 06:41:12 k 06:45:18 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:47:23 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:18 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [] 06:51:10 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:54:28 nffff [~nffff@c-50-183-123-25.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:12 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.16.79] has joined #lisp 06:55:23 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has joined #lisp 06:56:09 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:56:18 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has joined #lisp 06:58:22 macin: So are you taking a course using Common Lisp? 06:59:01 -!- zajn_ [~zajn@c-67-164-92-172.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:38 -!- nffff [~nffff@c-50-183-123-25.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:01 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 07:05:20 Davidbrcz [~david@i16-les03-th2-5-48-246-200.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 07:05:25 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:06:00 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@i16-les03-th2-5-48-246-200.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:48 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:07:43 No , i'm fascinated. 07:09:23 -!- hydan [59676e10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.103.110.16] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:10:15 -!- musvitnik [~musvitnik@82.146.58.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12:47 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.16.79] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:16:14 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:16:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:17:50 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 07:19:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:21:28 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:22:17 beach: just fascinated. :) 07:22:34 Yes, you said that. 07:23:15 dandersen [~user@unaffiliated/dandersen] has joined #lisp 07:25:00 -!- dandersen [~user@unaffiliated/dandersen] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:25:41 Yeah. 07:25:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 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timeout: 264 seconds] 08:40:50 -!- railly [~lilin@202.197.224.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:41:54 dandersen [~user@unaffiliated/dandersen] has joined #lisp 08:42:50 iqool [~user@46.78.95.191] has joined #lisp 08:48:36 srcerer_ [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:00 brucem_ [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:32 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 08:51:42 kbc [kbc@tuomi.oulu.fi] has joined #lisp 08:52:10 rk[lies]_ [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 08:52:12 Munksgaard_ [munksgaard@hub.pronoia.dk] has joined #lisp 08:53:28 abbe_ [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 08:55:14 fnordbert_ [~fnordbert@unaffiliated/fnordbert] has joined #lisp 08:55:43 i was trying to remember what term people use for the quality of lisp that makes is malleable - so one can change things around quickly 08:56:03 -!- srcerer [~chatzilla@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:06 -!- kbc_ [kbc@tuomi.oulu.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:06 -!- rk[lies] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:06 -!- zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:07 -!- brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:07 -!- naryl [~weechat@46.182.24.168] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:07 -!- zymurgy [~zymurgy@li607-220.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:07 -!- spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:09 -!- abbe [having@badti.me] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:09 -!- Munksgaard [munksgaard@hub.pronoia.dk] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:09 -!- fnordbert [~fnordbert@unaffiliated/fnordbert] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:56:20 Jayk97 [~quassel@50.13.169.64] has joined #lisp 08:56:24 -!- fnordbert_ is now known as fnordbert 08:57:10 -!- dkcl is now known as dandersen 08:57:28 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.89.192] has left #lisp 08:58:01 faheem: Extensibility? Homoiconicity? 08:58:35 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@30.Red-80-39-205.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:58:41 dandersen: probably not Extensibility 08:59:19 faheem: Well, homoiconicity refers to the fact that data and code are represented the same way. 08:59:25 to be clear, i meant how would one term "malleabl" more formally 08:59:49 i wasn't referring to the qualities that enable CL to be malleable. 09:00:05 I see. 09:01:31 meaning, i can quickly reshape the code to do something different. as opposed to C for example 09:02:03 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 09:02:59 Self-extensible, self-modifying, but I guess those words aren't formal/elegant enough, and it's not necessarily clear what "self-" means. 09:03:03 frkout [~frkout@47.145.218.133.dy.bbexcite.jp] has joined #lisp 09:03:27 spacebat [~spacebat@150.101.97.47] has joined #lisp 09:03:40 I'm guessing the target here is to make the meaning perfectly clear. 09:04:00 frkout_ [~frkout@p2045-ipngn1006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:04:01 Then again, go for "dynamic" if you want to compare it to C. 09:04:12 zymurgy [~zymurgy@li607-220.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:30 frkout__ [~frkout@vpn.dwango.co.jp] has joined #lisp 09:04:56 zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has joined #lisp 09:05:23 dandersen: yes, dynamic might work, if that is the generally understood meaning of the term in that context. 09:05:24 logand [~user@e179034116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:06:18 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:07:38 -!- frkout [~frkout@47.145.218.133.dy.bbexcite.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:02 please don't, we already have too many meanings for dynamic 09:08:44 -!- frkout_ [~frkout@p2045-ipngn1006marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:11:49 Bike: ok, back to the drawing board 09:12:57 What is the purpose? Are you trying to sell someone the idea of using Lisp for a project, or is it something else? 09:14:23 fendia [~fendia@82.146.63.24] has joined #lisp 09:15:09 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:16:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18:31 just tell them NASA uses lisp in mars rovers 09:21:23 -!- logand [~user@e179034116.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 09:24:53 -!- brucem_ is now known as brucem 09:25:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.228.232.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:14 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:16 dandersen: i'm writing an answer on a Stack Exchange site in which I want to express the property i mentioned above. that lisp can easily/quickly be changed. 09:31:48 the context is rapid prototyping. the question is http://academia.stackexchange.com/q/17781/285 09:31:56 -!- effy_ [~x@123.123.105.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:32:11 scientific protoyping i should have said 09:32:48 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.254] has joined #lisp 09:33:26 effy [~x@123.123.105.161] has joined #lisp 09:34:47 I'll probably also reference this question - http://scicomp.stackexchange.com/q/1454/38 09:35:00 I would make a point of homoiconicity, explaining what it is and why it's good 09:35:30 Maybe mention the fact that you can extensively modify a running system without it restarting, for instance 09:36:43 dandersen: modifying without restarting is certainly relevant. i don't want to go into too many technical details - that would seem out of place. 09:39:29 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-24-7-197-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:47 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5058:2f10:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:44:08 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-91-224.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:46:33 -!- Mathieu [mlegrand@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:caf4] has quit [Read error: Connection 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seconds] 09:52:21 Malice_ [~Malice@94-229-220-135.static.espol.com.pl] has joined #lisp 09:56:20 morning 09:56:55 hello oleo 09:57:07 o/ 09:57:12 hello beach 10:00:30 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:50 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0002.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:05:10 maxpeck [~maxpeck@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has joined #lisp 10:18:11 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:22:23 -!- iqool [~user@46.78.95.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:22:41 -!- mhd [~mhd@cpe-76-170-71-237.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 10:30:05 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:41:42 -!- macin [~macin@106.208.74.56] has left #lisp 10:48:21 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:48:24 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has joined #lisp 10:53:52 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping 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[~ceverett@FL9-125-199-207-150.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:56:25 Is there a way to remove specific method from generic function? 11:57:10 clhs remove-method 11:57:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_met.htm 11:58:14 And how do I get list of methods, again? 11:58:55 zxq9 [~ceverett@FL9-125-199-207-150.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #lisp 11:58:55 Well, you would have to use the MOP. But you can use find-method if you know its specializers. 11:58:58 clhs find-method 11:58:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_m.htm 11:59:32 I see. 11:59:40 In the MOP it is generic-function-methods. 11:59:48 OK, thanks beach. 12:00:05 http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/generic-function-methods.html 12:00:13 No problem. 12:00:38 Who is in charge of specbot? 12:00:56 We could teach it to access MOP symbols. 12:01:44 stassats, I guess. 12:01:52 Maybe so. 12:02:29 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:03:37 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 12:05:03 yzzyx [~yzzyx@host86-173-68-125.range86-173.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:07:38 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:10:59 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-75-248-198.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:11:46 cdidd [~cdidd@176.14.218.151] has joined #lisp 12:12:22 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 12:14:06 Near [~Near@unaffiliated/near] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 -!- Near [~Near@unaffiliated/near] has left #lisp 12:15:25 -!- effy [~x@123.123.105.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:16:00 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:25:24 effy [~x@123.123.105.161] has joined #lisp 12:26:18 -!- Malice_ [~Malice@94-229-220-135.static.espol.com.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:02 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has joined #lisp 12:33:59 -!- eigenlicht [~eigenlich@170-18-182-46.NbIServ.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:34:11 dilated_dinosaur [~ivan@cpc3-finc13-2-0-cust253.4-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:45 -!- wilfredh_ is now known as wilfredh 12:40:53 therik [~therik@212.50.110.108] has joined #lisp 12:44:41 is there are #lisp-gardeners or equivalent channel still where I can bother/absorb good lisp style? 12:44:49 bother people* 12:45:00 -!- dilated_dinosaur [~ivan@cpc3-finc13-2-0-cust253.4-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:45:29 yzzyx: You can ask any question here. People mostly get annoyed when the question is easily answered in the first few pages of a good lisp book. They also get annoyed when there is no visible progress. 12:45:58 Ok, thanks. 12:47:15 k-stz [~user@HSI-KBW-095-208-250-093.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:49:04 You can also get some answers meant only to amuse the answerer, unfortunately, and those can be hard to filter out if you have no context for filtering. 12:49:28 yzzyx: the common lisp tag on stack overflow usually attracts pretty good answers. 12:50:28 heh, I'll try to keep questions to whe sensible people are around, then. 12:50:31 when* 12:52:35 There's a "Lisp Style" thing by Norvig and Pitman that might be interesting reading 12:53:11 Of course it won't rant at you about your indentation over IRC. 12:53:45 yzzyx: This is what ITA Software used as their style guide (it's been made public and Googlified because of the acquisition): http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml 12:55:08 All really helpful replies, thanks all 12:55:37 -!- Joreji [~thomas@155-223.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:01:38 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-92.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:02:49 I also notice a lot of quicklisp libraries are forked on github, but the original project doesn't merge back. If I discovered a bug in a library and submitted a pull request, do they (on average) get merged upstream and eventually back to quicklisp? I can't at this stage figure out if a project has been idle for two years because it's stable, or if it's abandoned. 13:04:03 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 13:04:46 Hm, although in the case of all libraries, that's a broad question. Perhaps a better one would be "Is there a list of packages sorted by popuplarity?" maybe an aggregate quickinstall count for each package? That would help selecting packages. 13:08:26 -!- asedeno [~asedeno@66.102.14.25] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:08:40 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:11:15 ah, nevermind, i found the current recommended libraries page, that's a start. 13:11:19 (cliki) 13:12:16 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-172-79.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:08 yzzyx: They used to be published, I'm not sure if they still are. This is the latest one I could find but it's from November 2011... http://blog.quicklisp.org/2011/12/project-download-stats-for-november.html 13:18:00 asedeno [~asedeno@66.102.14.18] has joined #lisp 13:18:35 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:20:39 aeth: thanks, that's better than nothing. Xach: feature request :) 13:22:41 yzzyx: have you looked at quickdocs.org (I think)? 13:23:36 -!- nffff [~nffff@c-50-183-123-25.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:24:23 splittist: aha, all sorts of useful metrics here, thanks! 13:25:05 LiamH [~none@96.231.227.121] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 yzzyx: I agree it would be great to have a way to find out what projects might fit your needs, and how many other people had it fit their needs (or not) 13:27:53 Xach: is there a policy for taking over dead projects that have stagnated in quicklisp for a while where the author is no longer responding? 13:28:39 sohail [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:40 -!- sohail [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:28:40 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 13:30:52 yzzyx: no formal policy, but i'd like to see a good effort to contact the author for a while before just taking over. 13:31:06 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:31:17 -!- dandersen is now known as dkcl 13:31:43 Xach, naturally. I'm just trying to assess what risks would be involved in maintaining lisp in a commercial setting in general. 13:32:07 (and then going to write some throw away stuff anyway) 13:32:52 yzzyx: there are decades-old companies who have used lisp all their lives. 13:33:51 The main risks would probably be interoperability costs. 13:34:19 Zhivago: could you elaborate? 13:36:14 Well, say that you want to interface it to javawombles and snode-flapjiggles. 13:36:44 It may involve more work, since the other side is unlikely to have considered lisp interoperability. 13:36:45 already got you, yes. There would be effort involved in keeping in step with whatever external apis they have which may change at any given time. 13:37:06 You might need to implement your own version of ssoapy 7, and so on. 13:37:13 So of course, since we get the data in json or xml you'd have to buy a multi-million conversion engine from the Nasa, and write adapters to hook that enginee on the lisp and on the java side, which themselves would be two multi-million multi-year projects. 13:38:18 pjb: ;) in that case i might just write an interface that talks to the kool nodejs kidz library over a socket and let them do the hard work. 13:38:56 dilated_dinosaur [~ivan@cpc3-finc13-2-0-cust253.4-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:59 Yeah, quite so. 13:39:23 Sockets are nice unless you need to implement insane protocols, and bridges can be built. 13:40:09 Insanity insanity insanity! 13:40:51 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:41:25 Zhivago: there are always insane protocols, though I try to avoid them as best I can, in any language. 13:42:19 -!- fendia [~fendia@82.146.63.24] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:42:30 s/protocols/apis/ 13:47:10 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 13:49:14 da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has joined #lisp 13:49:24 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:49:35 ym2ha0 [~ian@58.32.251.102] has joined #lisp 13:50:50 -!- ym2ha0 [~ian@58.32.251.102] has left #lisp 13:51:05 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:53:18 -!- da4c30ff__ [~da4c30ff@c18.adsl.tnnet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:55:20 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:58:03 -!- abbe_ is now known as abbe 14:03:33 I know this is a biased place to ask this question, but I'll let it fly anyway. 14:03:56 Is there any programming language that's as agnostic to the programming model used as Common Lisp? 14:04:08 assembly language. 14:04:14 In what regard is common lisp agnostic? 14:04:34 he's likely talking about multi-paradigm languages. 14:04:38 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 14:05:00 Then let's be more specific so that this question becomes meaningful. 14:05:09 Common Lisp is a procedural language. 14:05:19 It's not agnostic about that at all. 14:06:08 Yes, but that's because you can't get to procedural from any other model, whereas you can build the other models on top of a procedural model. 14:06:21 huh? 14:06:28 Sure you can -- see how haskell gets to procedural from functional. 14:06:48 you can write Fortran in *any* language! 14:07:09 bjorkintosh: ...and sometimes, that's the only thing you can do 14:07:50 So, what was the claim, again? :) 14:08:40 Oz is pretty heavily multiparadigm. 14:09:17 Zhivago: I've heard more than one Haskell-type complain that its main problem is how contorted non-functional stuff is. But if that's inaccurate, I'm all ears. :) 14:09:32 whaaat? 14:09:46 Odin-, ignore the fools! 14:09:51 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:09:59 no one paradigm is _the_ silver bullet. 14:10:33 bjorkintosh: Yes. Which is what I've found interesting about a lot of new-ish programming environments. 14:10:52 They provide one hammer, and want you to do everything using that. 14:11:02 For example? 14:11:05 besides that, they completely ignore logic programming when talking about 'functional', not realizing it's the other side of the damned coin. 14:12:14 Zhivago: Node is particularly guilty of that, but a similar feeling also keeps rubbing me the wrong way about Clojure. 14:12:51 Odin- Clojure does not pretend to be a single paradigm language at all! 14:13:00 So, what is the 'one way to do everything' in node? Is it functions? Is it objects? 14:13:00 you must be talking to some trolly trolls. 14:13:49 Zhivago: no, it's eschewing sensible runtime semantics by having a library that forces you to use callbacks 14:13:56 bjorkintosh: Neither does C. It still pushes you very strongly in certain directions. 14:14:14 Well, let me know if you get around to anything meaningful. :) 14:14:22 Zhivago: Event-driven. Function returns? What's that? 14:14:51 Odin-, if the language supports other paradigms, then of course. C to my knowledge does not contain out of the box support for other paradigms. 14:15:28 bjorkintosh: In that case, your nomination of assembly is questionable. ;) 14:15:37 odin: Ah, you mean like how CL forces you to use threads for that instead. :) 14:15:45 The problem with node is if you have a nice, clean function that calls some other function (let's call it b), then if b suddenly depends on io, you must modify it to take a continuation, and now a must be re-written to take a continuation, and everyone that calls a must change too. 14:16:01 odin: I can see your argument for how CL is particularly guilty of forcing a single paradigm on the user. 14:16:40 Odin-, you're right :) but in the end, they're all doing assembly of some sort. 14:16:48 If a language doesn't force anything, it means the tools you get when you solve it in a particular way also suck balls. 14:16:52 btw, c++ does not force OO on anyone. 14:17:00 it just happens to be the most popular paradigm. 14:17:14 There are some implementations of prolog for Common Lisp; now, does anyone of them have a nice debugger? 14:17:16 also, excellent marketing at the time. 14:17:19 Probably not. 14:17:28 Zhivago: Not really. Because unlike Node, and much closer to C, CL enables you to build a different model. Where CL goes well beyond C is in making that new model appear integrated. 14:17:39 Let's look at something like Java again; a broken language, but hey, it actually has working tools. 14:17:59 odin: You really haven't thought this through, have you? 14:18:17 odin: CL allows you to write a code-walker that CPS transforms everything. 14:18:25 Also, the language is rather meaningless; if all the libraries are broken, it's still worthless. 14:18:26 odin: Hey, guess what, the same applies to node, in reverse. 14:19:46 In fact, almost all programming which has been done before is worthless in the sense that they didn't prove their code to be correct and as such you just have to hope for those other people to not have made some stupid mistake (hello GNUTLS!), which is ridiculous too. 14:20:10 Proving code to be correct is also just as worthless. 14:20:20 why Zhivago? 14:20:22 Since that might lead you to expect that the code runs correctly. 14:20:24 Zhivago: Hardware is inherently procedural. That sort of transformation always happens, it's just a question of at what level. 14:20:34 Odin: That's gibberish. 14:20:34 Zhivago: and it does. 14:20:49 Djikstra earns a feather in his wings each time a program is proved correct. 14:20:52 jdoles: Only if your hardware works correctly. 14:20:59 And your hardware doesn't work correctly. 14:21:03 bjorkintosh: and doesn't work 14:21:11 Zhivago: if my hardware doesn't work correctly, I return it. 14:21:16 Zhivago: Oh, really? Define functional application non-procedurally. 14:21:25 Zhivago: and it's one of the most ridiculous counter-arguments I have ever heard. 14:21:32 None of your hardware works correctly -- it's all vulnerable to probabilistic failure. 14:21:37 Zhivago: I heard it before, but I expected more from you. 14:21:42 Odin-, procedural programming relies on side effects. changing state. 14:22:10 Well, you can live in a fantasy world -- but the reality is that you need to expect your code not to work perfectly. 14:22:18 Zhivago: if you have proven your code to be correct, you can always compile it such that it does things in redundant ways. 14:22:22 in a purely functional language, there hopefully are no side effects. 14:22:23 voila? 14:22:28 <_death> we live in a material world in Zhivago is a material guy 14:22:31 bjorkintosh: Yes. And hardware is state. 14:22:32 Zhivago: that way, you can get the probability of failure as low as epsilon. 14:22:41 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 14:22:42 "Anything that can possibly go wrong, does." -Murphy 14:22:43 jdoles: no. You need to verify the whole path, and even that gives you only certain degree of assurance 14:22:47 You can get it low ... but that's not the same as perfect. 14:22:48 Zhivago: in short, your statements mean nothing. 14:22:58 Odin-, it's a necessary abstraction. however, if you're suggesting that there's only one paradigm because all hardware is procedural... 14:23:07 bjorkintosh: No side effects means no effect on anything, meaning can't be detected on the outside. 14:23:13 you must not have heard of the OO-like hardware implemented a few years ago. 14:23:17 Zhivago: but perfect is going to be 100000 times better than what we have now (which is no reason at all for software to work) 14:23:19 Which is why you need to design with defects in mind. 14:23:23 LISP machine anyone? 14:23:35 perfect should survive the heat death of the universe 14:23:38 bjorkintosh: OO is not really anything different from procedural... 14:23:39 bjorkintosh: No, I'm saying his argument that CL can't do event-driven programming because it does code transformation under the hood is stupid. 14:23:46 Zhivago: your compiler can implement that as well. 14:23:52 odin: Re-read what I wrote. 14:23:58 p_l, right. it's structured programming ++. 14:23:58 Zhivago: it's called "separation of concerns". 14:24:16 Zhivago: If that wasn't what you meant, your comment had no relevance to what I said. 14:24:33 Odin: Did you manage to read where I wrote that you can write a CPS transforming code-walker? 14:24:37 CL can't do event-driven programming? since when? 14:24:38 Zhivago: a programmer can just write his little proof against an ideal machine (like the JVM was also supposed to do) and then some magical compiler makes it run on even the most broken hardware around. 14:24:57 jdoles: hahahahahahahahaha 14:24:58 -!- nialo [~nialo@ool-2f10e575.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:25:00 jdoles: Yeah, in a fantasy world you can have magical compilers. 14:25:06 Although I'm getting a touch of deja vu here, and really don't care to keep at this. 14:25:22 Zhivago: I have no doubt that I could be part of a team building such infrastructure. 14:25:25 jdoles: sorry, the real result is verifying everything, sometimes down to traces in IC 14:25:33 <_death> jdoles: once people thought programs were made for the machines.. then they found out it makes more sense to have them written for humans, and for machines only incidentally.. and now there's regression with people thinking they should be made for provers 14:25:44 p_l: that's something for the people at Intel to work on. 14:25:53 p_l: and in my experience they are doing just fine. 14:26:08 hardware failure is pretty rare 14:26:11 _death, there are more machines than humans. i say they be written for machines :D 14:26:17 jdoles: Let's see your program run correctly when the machine is on fire. :) 14:26:34 Zhivago, just out of curiosity, how many times did your hardware catch fire? 14:26:38 if humans want to read programs written for machines, it'll take time and is otherwise known as job security. 14:26:42 p_l: and you can also prove that an architecture works given particular design constraints. 14:26:44 "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair." 14:27:01 scoofy: Well, I use quite a lot of hardware, so it happens reasonably frequently. 14:27:11 p_l: it's just that the hardware industry isn't in fantasy land (aka having a little bit of ambition) yet. 14:27:18 personally, haven't happened to me in the past 25 years... 14:27:22 scoofy: Fortunately, I don't assume that the hardware is perfect, so it's not that hard to deal with. 14:27:24 jdoles: actually, no, the team that verifies is not allowed to be the team that made the hw (and while intel does have a slice of the pie, it's nowhere that big) 14:27:27 maybe i'm not hardcore enough :) 14:27:37 scoofy: You just need to use enough machines. :) 14:27:45 well, not saying it's not a possibility... 14:28:13 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:28:16 p_l: I didn't say anything about it. 14:28:24 just generally thought to be a really low incidence scenario 14:28:26 And that's the point -- proving the code correct isn't enough to prove that the machine implementing the code is correct. 14:28:29 'your hw cathing fire' 14:28:41 scoofy: hate it when it happens, but it does 14:28:58 scoofy: It's a bit like checksum failures -- shove enough data around and it becomes a frequent occurrence. 14:28:59 p_l: I was saying that it is possible to _generate_ a completely correctly working CPU in a simulation which works as long as the process to create the CPUs works. 14:29:04 well, what can we do? "Anything that can possibly go wrong, does." -Murphy 14:29:20 jdoles: except that manufacturing is not perfect, and then you get radiation, too 14:29:30 Right -- we realize that our code isn't perfect and design accordingly. 14:29:34 p_l: manufacturing is perfect within certain bounds. 14:29:48 It would be quite nice if software was good enough that manufacturing defects caused most breakage. 14:29:48 p_l: because, that's pretty much the definition of manufacturing and having a "process". 14:29:55 i think we manufacture stuff to be 'good enough', not to be 'perfect'. that applies to both machines and software. 14:29:56 jdoles: And those bounds will be exceeded. 14:30:09 -!- dilated_dinosaur [~ivan@cpc3-finc13-2-0-cust253.4-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:30:10 Indeed -- which is why theorem provers haven't taken over. 14:30:17 Zhivago: I am sure that it's possible to create technology such that this will never happen. 14:30:34 jdoles: Well, you might want to get your head checked. 14:30:37 Zhivago: and I am sure IBM already invented that 30 years ago. 14:30:41 macin [~macin@223.235.220.125] has joined #lisp 14:30:42 Of course, the hardware guys use theorem provers. 14:30:42 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:30:57 Zhivago: your logic seems to be very flawed. 14:31:01 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 14:31:01 IBM hasn't produced any hardware that can stand up to a programmer with a screwdriver. 14:31:10 ggole, and what do the theorem provers rely on? :D 14:31:11 -!- macin [~macin@223.235.220.125] has left #lisp 14:31:24 So, point out the flaw which shows that magically perfect hardware can be physically produced. 14:31:24 Zhivago: there is anothing solution for that; security guards. 14:31:36 Hey, sounds like there's a flaw in your logic ... 14:31:43 Existing working hardware? 14:31:50 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:31:58 which too have been proved ? 14:32:06 Existing working hardware (talking about just CPUs here) seems to work just fine. 14:32:13 Mostly, yes. 14:32:17 Certainly statistically speaking. 14:32:21 Occasionally, no. 14:32:27 the intel div bug was an extremely rare occurence 14:32:47 And once you've grasped that, you need to accept that your code is only going to be working fine mostly. 14:32:57 macin [~macin@223.235.220.125] has joined #lisp 14:33:02 Zhivago: I don't buy that. 14:33:18 add distributed computing, and the source of possible failures increase exponentially. 14:33:19 Zhivago: if hardware correctness was a problem, I could also work around it. 14:33:23 Bugs aside -- the physical hardware is always subject to wear and tear, cosmic rays, programmer with screwdrivers, earthquakes, and so on. 14:33:38 If you don't buy that, then you're delusional. 14:33:40 i once killed a motherboard with a screwdriver. 14:33:47 Zhivago: so, build killer robots to protect the CPUs... 14:33:47 i am a certain risk to hardware 14:33:59 Zhivago, NonStop (tm) 14:34:00 The same applies to killer robots ... 14:34:10 should work nonstop until unplugged. 14:34:12 Zhivago: populate the whole planet then. 14:34:24 And planets ... 14:34:27 or we could build hardware that's already probabilistic all the time. like, quantum computing. 14:34:32 Zhivago: so, grey goo then. 14:34:40 Zhivago: heat death of the universe? 14:34:49 Zhivago: that's just a hypothesis. 14:35:04 eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has joined #lisp 14:35:19 Yeah, ok. Let me know when you come down. 14:35:32 well, anything can fail, and will fail. hence the idea of building fault-tolerant systems... 14:35:53 scoofy: right, which was done in the '60s already. 14:36:02 certainly, if your life doesn't depend on it, you may as well simply not care about your hardware possibly failing. and just restart it in case of failure 14:36:09 All in all, saying that theorem proving is stupid because of hardware failure is just retarded. 14:36:29 If anything, you should be able to add arbitrary redundancy to it automatically with a compiler option. 14:36:37 If you can't see that, you are just retarded. 14:36:44 jdoles: You can add 'poor reading skills' to your resume. 14:37:49 -!- macin [~macin@223.235.220.125] has left #lisp 14:38:04 'hardware failing' is only a problem when you cannot simply go there and fix it. like, in the case of a Mars rover mission like Spirit 14:38:17 The point was that proving your code correct doesn't prove that it will run correctly. 14:38:17 Zhivago: if you define perfect as "not possible to do better" instead of your assumed theoretical concept of perfection, what I said is at least consistent. 14:38:18 once that fails, it's done. 14:38:40 Zhivago, the world is full of 'best effort' solutions.... 14:38:42 The only one talking about 'theorem proving is stupid' is yourself. 14:38:52 scoofy: Sure, and? 14:39:00 and anything can fail. 14:39:15 which is not necessarily a problem, as long as you can go there and fix it... and it's not on a different planet 14:39:27 like the Spirit Mars rover 14:39:29 I *much* rather run proven correct stuff than whatever some random Google employee created. 14:39:46 I like the colour blue. 14:39:49 jdoles, so you don't use any google products? 14:39:57 not android? not maps? not gmail? not search? 14:40:05 from my experience, google drive is a really buggy piece of software... 14:40:09 bjorkintosh: you need to work on your logic skills. 14:40:14 :) 14:40:22 no. 14:40:25 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 14:40:50 brandonz [~brandon@c-50-131-126-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:04 bjorkintosh: and incidentally, I think gmail is substandard software, android is nothing to write home about, and search is certainly not invincible. 14:41:10 bjorkintosh: in short, GOOG is overrated. 14:41:35 bjorkintosh: GOOG is just Adwords; the rest is just circumstantial. 14:41:57 jdoles, when will we be seeing Jdoles-mobile, Jdoles-search, and Jdoles-mail? 14:42:01 all proven correct. 14:42:07 don't forget Jdoles-maps 14:42:17 and Jdoles-tube 14:42:21 Oh, and maps was just bought from some other company. 14:42:25 Jdoles-correctly-proven-maps (ps the map IS the territory!) 14:42:26 Same for Youtube. 14:42:30 I don't want to interrupt the nice flame war you guys have going here, but what does any of this even remotely have to do with CL? 14:42:50 jdoles, i hate to say it, but worse is better. 14:43:00 google does not use common lisp, as far as I know.... 14:43:15 it uses norvig though, scoofy . 14:43:22 bjorkintosh: yeah, I never agreed on that :) 14:43:35 http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/lispguide.xml 14:43:43