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[~green@dsl-173-206-21-164.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:06:26 -!- AndChat-671600 [~AndChat67@200-141-10-75.user3g.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:08:23 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:00 -!- zfx [~zfx@host86-153-170-242.range86-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:10:22 -!- black0ut [~black0ut@p5DDDB9FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 00:10:27 -!- Denommus [~AndChat67@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:12:39 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 00:15:17 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:18:49 karswell [~user@84.93.180.60] has joined #lisp 00:18:59 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:6770:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:19:20 atgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-21-164.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 00:21:14 Fare: i don't have a real problem with asdf, it's just i want to be able to load different sets fo libs from different scripts, and you helped pave my way to it thank you :) 00:22:00 Fare: till now i used the asdf1 version semantics and had problems with it right from the beginning.... 00:22:51 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:22:58 Fare: switched to asdf2 (:tree blah) for when i want to load stuff recursively, i just didn't know how to use asdf:initialize-source-registry .... 00:24:26 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@c-98-248-194-46.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:26:38 but i would be grateful to anyone who can tell me where the colored | bars in my beirc stem from 00:26:41 -!- atgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-21-164.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:26:55 http://picpaste.com/pics/test-uAtRj59d.1392578530.png 00:27:19 can't figure out..... 00:30:32 atgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-21-164.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 00:33:21 oleo: glad I helped. 00:33:32 asdf2 was designed precisely with this kind of use in mind. 00:35:52 -!- Adlai` is now known as Adlai 00:39:36 -!- gadmyth [~user@180.169.135.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:44:18 -!- WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has quit [Quit: WarWeasle] 00:45:29 WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 00:49:06 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 00:52:56 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-133-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:58:12 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:12 19:58:12 -!- names: ccl-logbot clintm zfx ndrei n0n0 hiroakip Ayey theseb ivan-kanis nha_ M00R1Z Patzy nug700 Joreji Vutral normanrichards Alfr jpfuentes2 emma KarlDscc harish patapon EvW aftershave_ ck`` QwertyDragon drmeister antonv innertracks 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tali713 joshe Yamazaki-kun Ralt pchrist andares ineiros zz_karupanerura ircbrowse splittist benny wilfredh bicgena varjag m00n dan64 quackv4 Fade 19:58:12 -!- names: smull enn easye fe[nl]ix qsun akersof killmaster Natch __main__ galdor gko ecraven Blkt pillton eigenlicht jdoles abunchofdollarsi madnificent Zag jsnell abbe pok mikaelj quasisane newcup spacefrogg igorw tychoish aoh BlastHardcheese Cheery sytse gabot freiksenet K1rk nitro_idiot phadthai j0ni froggey sigjuice faheem jackdaniel johs ozzloy jasom Tordek p_l|backup minion djinni` abend jayne reb` vert2 wormphlegm oGMo gf3 lemoinem redline6561 mshroyer 19:58:12 -!- names: sshirokov nightshade427 sbryant yroeht2 rtoym_ kmder xristos` ivan sklr_ Nshag Posterdati _death ered fmu flip214 p_l ``Erik aerique setheus rk[wrk] eMBee clop peccu1 joga tomaw felipe ramus fnordbert sauerkrause Munksgaard z0d cibs sixbitslacker gensym Ober kbc_ cmbntr_ 8OWAAACR7 BrianRice 19:58:26 optikalmouse_ [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:55 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:58:59 -!- optikalmouse_ is now known as optikalmouse 19:59:19 optikalmouse_ [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:53 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:10 -!- optikalmouse_ [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:10 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:27 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:40 Anyone use postmodern a lot? I'm not sure how to proceed correctly with this. A class has an :initform that executes to give the primary key value. Given 'a' is a new (make-instance ..), after (insert-dao) is called, do I need to re-query for that to have the primary key hold a real value? 20:01:50 damn, I should just always, always, make a paste. 20:02:02 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:02:19 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:02:55 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC4B01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 20:04:25 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:57 clintm: it is not too late to make one. 20:05:09 H4ns: doing that now. :) 20:05:35 -!- ck`` [~user@aftr-37-24-147-30.unity-media.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:05:45 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a472:1873:30e:3117] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:06:53 clintm: PostgreSQL provides the RETURNING clause to INSERT, UPDATE and DELETE statements, so that you can just ask for the default or computed column values that you omited 20:07:06 insert into foo(...) values(...) returning *; 20:07:29 insert into foo(...) values(...) returning id, (id+1)%17, 'whatever'; 20:08:00 -!- M00R1Z [~M00R1Z@178-117-47-54.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: M00R1Z] 20:08:58 dim: true, but intuition says that postmodern will do this for me if I ask it correctly. 20:09:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/141265 20:09:15 does anyone know of an updated version of an sbcl tree-shaker? http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/shake.lisp is a bit ... experienced. 20:09:34 well, PostgreSQL is a part of the tools you're using as a developer, my intuition is that you probably should learn to use it properly 20:09:54 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:10:22 clintm: is your initform ever evaluated? does thing-uid contain a uid after you invoke make-instance? 20:10:43 oh, and PostgreSQL is well able to generate UUID for you 20:10:52 clintm: your problem does not seem to be a postgres specfic thing, but rather something that is happening inside of postmodern or the dao metaclass 20:11:20 clintm: try (thing-uid (make-instance 'thing)) 20:11:20 H4ns: +1, now that I see the paste, as the value is not a PostgreSQL default or computed value 20:12:00 Fare: I'd like to program in LISP, and provide a standalone program, instead of doing the same job in C. 20:12:48 M00R1Z [~M00R1Z@178-117-47-54.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:13:07 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 flip214: see cl-buildapp 20:13:44 What is cl-buildapp? 20:14:05 oh, http://www.xach.com/lisp/buildapp/, you might have heard about it 20:14:23 I already managed to get a standalone executable. 20:14:27 I'm familiar with buildapp, but not cl-buildapp - is cl-buildapp a variation or wrapper or something? 20:14:32 dim: +1 to you... While I did know about returning, I had apparently forgotten about uuid-ossp. 20:14:34 Now I'd like to shring the packaging size a bit. 20:14:37 it's from the guy who quotes scooby-doo on c.l.l apparently ;-) 20:14:52 Xach: a typo 20:14:56 ah 20:16:34 clintm: btw, your paste does not specify a metaclass for thing. 20:17:49 H4ns: oops... i just wrote out the problem instead of copying all of the relevant code. Missed that. 20:18:03 *drewc* is just reading c.l.l and saw the quote, came back here and saw the dim/Xach chat, and smiled :) 20:18:06 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: continuation corrupted into eternal damage] 20:19:28 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:51 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:24:19 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:f463:b6c8:25cf:3339] has joined #lisp 20:24:43 przl [~przlrkt@p5DD152DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:25:40 hehe 20:26:43 mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.226] has joined #lisp 20:27:41 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:25 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:50 flip214, you can do that with asdf:program-op or uiop:dump-image 20:29:53 or cl-launch 20:30:03 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:f463:b6c8:25cf:3339] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:30:13 or Xach's equivalent for SBCL 20:30:30 cl-buildapp above 20:30:33 Fare: I don't see anything in dump-image that would reduce my image in any way. 20:30:41 "reduce" ??? 20:31:06 compress-core 20:31:32 no, not compression. 20:31:43 you understand that compress-core means that at startup it gets uncompressed, anyway? 20:31:46 I'd like to remove everything that is not needed for an executable. 20:31:51 flip214: why? 20:31:52 Fare: yes, I do. 20:31:53 oh, a tree shaker 20:31:58 lispworks has that 20:32:12 H4ns: so that RPM or DEB size shrinks. 20:32:23 flip214: and that would be good because...? 20:32:27 everything that can be removed _before_ dumping the image will make the package smaller. 20:32:44 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:f463:b6c8:25cf:3339] has joined #lisp 20:32:53 we're talking 100MB down to? 20:32:56 H4ns: "appearance", or "aesthetics" .... 20:33:00 dim: don't know yet. 20:33:12 flip214: you can send just the compressed source, and let it be compiled at runtime the first time 20:33:18 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:33:19 that's what I'm trying to find out - how small it gets with how much effort. 20:33:31 well if it's down to C or the like typical size (a few MB max) then I'm in 20:33:36 -!- aftershave_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:33:46 aftershave_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:33:47 flip214: just put it the other way round: by packing everything with the image, you never run into the version hell that you run into with shared dynamic language runtimes. like with perl, python, ruby or what have you 20:33:59 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 20:34:15 flip214: compress the image, do something productive instead. 20:34:18 yes, I know all that. Thanks for reminding me, though. 20:34:21 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 as a data point, the full PostgreSQL server binary, with debug symbols and asserts and all the jazz (devel version) is 7.3MB on OSX, while pgloader is more than 100MB on the same platform 20:35:07 just saying. it is your time that you waste :D 20:35:23 -!- aftershave_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:38 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:36:02 i'm quite sure sbcl folks wouldn't mind if you contributed a state of the art tree shaker into sbcl ;) 20:36:13 I remember the bad old days when 64KiB was a lot, and the "i" in KiB hadn't been invented yet 20:36:37 sbcl might require more than a tree shaker to produce more compact code 20:37:00 for smaller code, try a different lisp 20:37:14 i have to say, year by year the lisp implementations get more and more compact 20:37:28 last i heard, the gains from tree shakers have not been able to outweigh the effort to maintain them. 20:37:30 what more, one that has 8-bit characters only 20:37:34 (as in more and more compact compared to other languages' implementations) 20:37:52 -!- clintm [~clintm@001e52f0de2b.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: clintm] 20:38:21 H4ns: that's also my interpretation of the current state of affairs 20:38:24 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:f463:b6c8:25cf:3339] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 20:38:29 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:40:03 my only consolation when I see a 20MB binary for pgloader is that it's running up to 25 times faster than the python version I used to maintain ;-) 20:40:05 CCL is somewhat more compact than SBCL, at the expense of speed. CLISP even more so. 20:40:38 if for a RPM / whatever - you can distribute a compressed FASL, instead of an image 20:40:52 so you don't have to distribute all the base stuff 20:41:06 slower at startup 20:41:12 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:f463:b6c8:25cf:3339] has joined #lisp 20:41:12 dim: it is the intellectual low end of discussions that one can have about the problems with lisp. it can be discussed together with the number of parentheses in lisp programs. 20:41:17 well if I could afford (e.g.) stassats mentoring for a week or two I guess it would be up to 100 times faster 20:41:34 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 20:41:41 H4ns: do you mean image size or performances? 20:41:46 dim: image size 20:42:17 Reminds me about that joke about the leaked excerpt of an AI program: the last few thousand characters of it, are closing parentheses. 20:42:24 then I agree, but I would add that it takes time to get to that viewpoint 20:42:38 the java application i have at work is in the same ballpark with my lisp applications (both compressed, lisp as in image, java as in jar with all the dependencies, no runtime) 20:42:48 the balance isn't obvious 20:43:25 Greenspun's 10th law is saying that the <8MB postgres binary is comparable in feature set to the SBCL image, after all 20:43:31 -!- antonv [~user@93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:43:41 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:43:56 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 20:44:16 dim: actually, it says you need twice the postgres binary to get the equivalent of SBCL 20:44:20 dim: postgres is lacking the one important feature: it does not implement common lisp. 20:45:18 I would say it implements interesting parts of it actually, but you would call that a troll, so I won't 20:45:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:46:18 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 20:46:28 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DD152DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:50:02 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:50:12 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:30 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:02 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:54:30 nnnnnnnnns [5c8f2af0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.143.42.240] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:55:15 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:55:36 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 20:56:08 -!- nnnnnnnnns [5c8f2af0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.143.42.240] has quit [Client Quit] 20:56:46 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:54 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 20:59:05 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 21:00:52 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:02:02 zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:14 zygentoma [~kvirc@dslb-188-096-214-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:08 nichtdiebohne [~nichtdieb@kons-4d03edfb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:39 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:14 -!- zajn [~zajn@108.205.50.54] has quit [Quit: zajn] 21:07:18 bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-078-042-139-130.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:21 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:35 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:11:29 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@94.144.63.226] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:38 Hi, I'm trying to optimize a function (part of a terrain generator) by declaring the types of the arguments of a function. However, when I add a declaim like so: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141266 the compiler complains. How do I thell the compiler, that the function takes a cons of to integers and one optional integer? 21:12:36 i.e. I call it like so: (make-squares '((1 . 1) (1 . 1) (1 . 1) (1 . 1)) 5) 21:12:40 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.214.155] has joined #lisp 21:13:28 would the ftype declaration really give you the speed that you hope to get? 21:13:34 I don't know how to do that, so I would have a look at defstruct here 21:13:55 i mean is it not that you want to avoid the typechecks for the list and conses? 21:14:23 H4ns: The function is called a lot. Yes I want to avoid those, I thought this was the way to do so. How do I do it properly? 21:14:25 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.126.2.42] has joined #lisp 21:15:01 bad_alloc: i'm not entirely sure, but i'd experiment with declaring the type of the arguments and maybe with THE 21:15:29 H4ns: in the argument list of the function? 21:15:30 bad_alloc: i'd not expect a function type declaration to be that beneficial, but i can't back that with internal compiler knowledge, it is just a feeling. 21:15:53 Well this thing is called _a lot_ so every bit helps :) 21:16:28 bad_alloc: did you compare the disassembly for a function with and without &optional? 21:16:31 Davidbrcz [~david@88.95.11.109.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:48 bad_alloc: &key has a hefty runtime overhead. don't know about &optional, but i'd check. 21:16:51 Watcher7 [~w@108.216.28.176] has joined #lisp 21:17:28 Nope, didn't look at that yet. Trying it now. 21:17:51 -!- nichtdiebohne [~nichtdieb@kons-4d03edfb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 21:20:34 H4ns: This is odd, without the &optinal it takes 7.5 million cycles and with the optional it's 6.3 million. 21:20:36 *optional 21:21:03 bad_alloc: interesting. :) 21:21:11 jnaASDF could not load because Compiled function can't be loaded: org.armedbear.lisp.types_ASDF_TMP_1 from org.armedbear.lisp.Pathname@144f0bd. 21:21:41 bad_alloc: so losing the &optional is not beneficial, clearly :) 21:22:38 Yep. I'll try the "the" thingy, thanks for your help :) 21:22:43 -!- bad_alloc [~bad_alloc@HSI-KBW-078-042-139-130.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 21:23:02 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 21:27:11 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 21:29:17 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:29:23 vibs29 [~lisper@94.116.12.220] has joined #lisp 21:29:46 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.18] has joined #lisp 21:31:27 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.214.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:48 cheryllium [~chatzilla@128.237.219.161] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 zajn [~zajn@airbears2-136-152-142-37.AirBears2.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:33:30 I have a request: could the person in charge of commonqt please release precompiled binaries for windows? 21:34:24 It's just very difficult for users, especially beginners, to compile these 21:34:46 For instance, here is one user's instructions for getting it to work: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1jq5rk/common_lisp_gui_options/cbhk0ek 21:34:57 (that is also the first result when googling "how to install commonqt windows 8") 21:35:40 hmm ok stassats does not appear to be here right now... 21:37:10 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:36 Denommus [~user@179.222.37.234] has joined #lisp 21:39:16 -!- zajn [~zajn@airbears2-136-152-142-37.AirBears2.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [Quit: zajn] 21:39:29 -!- Denommus [~user@179.222.37.234] has quit [Changing host] 21:39:29 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 21:40:09 "In spite of it's lack of popularity, LISP remains an influential language in 'key algorithmic techniques such as recursion and condescension'". Ha! http://thequickword.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/james-irys-history-of-programming-languages-illustrated-with-pictures-and-large-fonts/ 21:41:02 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42:18 -!- Ayey [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:19 -!- mhd [~mhd@cpe-76-170-71-237.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 21:42:34 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:18 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-229-227-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:30 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:47 -!- jewel_ [~jewel@105-237-57-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:46:48 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.158.46.26] has joined #lisp 21:47:05 lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-9.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:55 drmeister: heh, I have that open in a tab already ... I love the hair 21:48:16 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:48:46 zajn [~zajn@airbears2-136-152-142-37.AirBears2.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:49:11 -!- zophy [~venom@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:02 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host109-151-65-32.range109-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:58 How does one install multiple .dll files on windows? 22:00:06 -!- Joreji [~thomas@173-254.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:00:27 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:00:38 multiple versions? you need SxS 22:00:56 Don't remember how to generate the manifests involved, though 22:01:07 there used to be some precompiled binaries, though 22:01:14 I'm speaking of commonqt 22:01:19 whose precompiled binaries I cannot find 22:01:32 I just emailed stassats about it... 22:01:47 cheryllium: I know. I guess the ones I encountered earlier were rather unofficial 22:01:55 I did find a bunch of .dll files, should I just drag them into system32? 22:02:00 cheryllium: no 22:02:36 I don't know what to do with them. From the instructions it sounded like they needed to be accessible via PATH, and googling "how to install dll files" tells me to drag them into system32... 22:02:42 cheryllium: put them in the same directory as the commonqt files 22:02:53 same directory as commonqt files? 22:02:58 at least that would be my first try 22:02:59 yes 22:03:30 I don't know of such a directory... 22:03:43 I'm really lost when it comes to installing commonqt, I'm sorry 22:03:55 I thought all I needed would be the dll files? 22:03:58 no 22:04:08 I already have qt installed as I use it with other languages 22:04:08 you need the Lisp parts as well 22:04:20 -!- mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has quit [Quit: mgodshall] 22:04:39 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:f463:b6c8:25cf:3339] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:04:55 the DLLs are "glue" to interface Qt with Lisp parts. Also, you need to make sure that the DLLs are compiled with the same compiler as the QT version you use 22:05:16 actually, in CommonQT sources, you'll find commonqt.pro ready to compile the libs, even on win32 22:05:16 how do I compile dll files? 22:05:22 zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:06:02 p_l, thank you for helping me. I have some thoughts I want to share though, hopefully you won't judge me for them 22:06:29 cheryllium: ah, I thought you had Qt for developement purposes installed.... 22:06:36 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.18] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:06:50 most coders in my generation (college-age) are spoiled by languages like Java and python where you can just import libraries, or double-click a .exe to install everything 22:07:22 one big hurdle I see with lisp is that me, and many of my friends, have a lot of trouble installing libraries and getting them to work, for instance commonqt 22:07:34 well, most of the time quicklisp solves things like that, but CommonQT needs a bit more hand-holding, especially on windows 22:07:38 you could say we're just stupid, as we see some .dll files for instance and don't know what else we need 22:07:56 and we do google search to try to answer these questions, but often it doesn't lead us to the answers we need 22:08:07 cheryllium: given the amount of disinformation about DLLs on windows, or *any* kind of windows information, I am not surprised 22:08:18 this is why I want to ask stassats to make some easy method of installing commonqt on windows 22:08:39 qt is a popular gui framework that many people use, I'm sure my friends would give lisp more of a thought if they could get it to work on lisp more easily 22:08:59 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.18] has joined #lisp 22:09:04 I can see that, in my generation, lisp is really dying in popularity. no one wants to learn it, and those who try run into huge problems like these, with just installing things 22:09:16 cheryllium: do you have a) C compiler installed b) QT installed for developement with that compiler? 22:09:51 I do not have a C compiler installed 22:09:51 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:23 I don't really understand the installation details for my Qt. I have it working with python, I recall some complicated process to get it to work involving installing visual studio 2008? 22:10:36 should I install gcc? I can do that 22:11:21 cheryllium: no idea (I rarely use Windows), but if your QT install involved Visual Studio, you should use compiler from Visual Studio (looong story, but essentially C++ compilers are incompatible with each other and even themselves on occasion) 22:11:55 drmeister: kudos for linking that, made my evening 22:11:59 My point though was that the Lisp community may want to focus on making these things a lot easier to install, because it turns a lot of people away from Lisp. Why bother with Lisp when python/ruby/java is SO much easier to get going with? 22:12:34 cheryllium: we already do so, http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 22:12:57 the problem is that CommonQT involves FFI (and an unusual one) and that makes it a bit problematic 22:13:11 hmm, you're right about quicklisp, perhaps my complaint just applies to commonqt then 22:13:16 I only now remembered that you'll have to deal with smokegen and such 22:13:16 what is FFI? 22:13:30 Foreing-Function Interface, essentially a way to call code written in another language 22:13:37 *Foreign 22:13:53 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:13:53 also, why is it that in python for instance you can install pyqt by just running a .exe? 22:14:26 cheryllium: they probably package QT and few other things directly, and they have many, many, many more people working on it (including some commercial support) 22:14:29 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14:45 CommonQT is developed by much smaller group, among which Windows is even less represented 22:14:47 would it be possible for lisp to do something similar? 22:14:57 -!- sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:15:04 yes 22:15:05 cheryllium: it would need someone to spend the time 22:15:13 (like Xach spends with quicklisp) 22:15:16 I wish I were better at lisp, I would be willing to spend the time 22:15:33 cheryllium: it's less of lisp, more of deployment and build stuff 22:15:47 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.126.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:15:47 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:48 I wish I were more qualified to help with it 22:15:49 cheryllium: and Windows is IMO a minefield in that area compared to Linux 22:16:15 harish [~harish@175.156.126.138] has joined #lisp 22:16:35 what would one need to do to package commonqt in a more easy-to-install way? maybe I could do some research 22:16:35 cheryllium: I'd suggest starting with digging through Visual Studio (if you're student, Dreamspark has it for free) and learning to compile C/C++ and build installable packages 22:16:44 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-108-52-158-9.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:17:20 okay, I will do that 22:17:28 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.18] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:17:29 wait, visual studio can compile C? 22:17:33 so I do have a C compiler? 22:17:36 then add "build QT-based software" to that, and you should have anything to quickly grasp how to make prebuilt etc. libs for commonqt (and many more, including non-lisp languages) 22:17:40 cheryllium: depends on install options 22:19:05 search for "Visual Studio Prompt" or something like that among Start menu entries, then inside that type "cl.exe /?" 22:19:17 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms235639.aspx 22:19:24 well, I already emailed stassats about doing this, if you see him later can you tell him I'm working to understand more about it too? so that I can perhaps do it or at least help 22:19:24 on Windows, MSDN is your friend 22:19:32 cheryllium: no problem 22:19:36 thanks so much. 22:20:22 I wish you luck - windows can be annoying to setup for developement even for more experienced people when you lack windows-specific knowledge :) 22:20:45 finally, what was it I'm supposed to look for with cl.exe? 22:20:49 the command you told me to run 22:21:02 cheryllium: does it run or does it claim there's no such command? 22:21:25 -!- cmpitg [~184467440@unaffiliated/cmpitg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:21:26 it runs 22:21:39 if it runs, you (should) have working MSVC install - cl.exe is the name of the C/C++ compiler executable 22:21:58 n0n0 [~n0n0___@108.205.49.74] has joined #lisp 22:22:34 awesome, thank you 22:23:00 cheryllium: well, I'd suggest getting hang of C for now - the link I gave you to MSDN should help, also use local help files. Unfortunately FFI or GUI programming is not an easy thing no matter the language (because docs that claim it easy assume previous experience with C etc.) 22:23:13 zickzackv [~faot@p4FC960BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:34 hmm, I know how to code in C, but have never done it on windows 22:24:59 gmcastil [~user@97-122-163-48.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:59 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@108.205.49.74] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:25:01 by the way, i have visual studio 2008. should I download a different version, 2010 perhaps? 22:25:56 no 22:26:00 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has joined #lisp 22:26:08 unless you encounter problems 22:26:18 thanks 22:26:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:08 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:28:41 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.126.2.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:13 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has joined #lisp 22:29:38 \join haskell 22:29:53 wrong slash type 22:29:54 damn 22:29:57 ;) 22:30:32 hope you guys don't hate me now  ;) 22:30:37 XD 22:31:17 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:32:28 it's all because of my keyboard layout!!!1 I have \ right next to / 22:32:30 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has joined #lisp 22:32:46 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.95.11.109.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:33:17 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzzZ] 22:33:37 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:22 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 22:34:34 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:34:35 what keyboard layout are you using? 22:35:32 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has joined #lisp 22:35:49 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:36:20 it's called neo(2) http://www.neo-layout.org/ but it'i mainly optimised for German 22:38:28 fe[nl]ix, herep 22:38:29 -!- patapon [~deglingo@ALille-251-1-120-210.w86-208.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:39:45 ah interesting, do you live in germany? 22:40:05 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 22:40:09 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:52 Jayk97 [~quassel@50.13.169.64] has joined #lisp 22:41:20 -!- sixbitslacker [~fn@headache.hungry.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:41:51 Adlai [~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai] has joined #lisp 22:42:24 ncw [~ncw@host86-149-189-29.range86-149.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:26 *jaimef* hunts for a CL that supports hunchentoot 22:43:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:43:56 -!- ncw [~ncw@host86-149-189-29.range86-149.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:44:18 -!- Kunchun [~quassel@50.13.169.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:44:57 -!- M00R1Z [~M00R1Z@178-117-47-54.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: M00R1Z] 22:45:03 Oddi2 [~Oddity@154.20.70.67] has joined #lisp 22:46:26 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4db41d0c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:23 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@dslb-188-096-214-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:48:29 -!- wgreenhouse [~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:50 -!- quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:49:09 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:50:06 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:50:28 zophy [~venom@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:14 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:25 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:40 jaimef sbcl is one option, I wrote a blog post about how to set it up here http://cheryllium.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/hunchentoot-heroku-setup/ 22:51:51 mathrick_ [~mathrick@94.144.63.226] has joined #lisp 22:51:52 someone made a heroku buildpack for it which is nice 22:53:28 -!- vibs29 [~lisper@94.116.12.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:53:45 wgreenhouse [~wgreenhou@fsf/member/wgreenhouse] has joined #lisp 22:54:27 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:ccd3:14a0:a462:fe04:8eea:636a] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:55:46 zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:06 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.22.168] has joined #lisp 22:59:35 *drewc* hunts for a CL that does not support hunchentoot! :P 23:00:10 -!- zfx [~zfx@host109-154-235-106.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:00:14 -!- ered [~ered@2001:5a8:4:aaa0::6bf8:bab3] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:00:33 cormanlisp ? genera ? 23:00:54 gcl ? xcl ? 23:01:09 rmcl ? 23:05:11 cheryllium: no thread support on sbcl + netbsd 23:05:31 jaimef, so fix it? 23:08:08 Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:08:11 sheep1972 [~Seed@wool.shiftysheep.be] has joined #lisp 23:12:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.22.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:13:13 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:13:13 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:14:20 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:35 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:53 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.22.168] has joined #lisp 23:16:17 antonv [~user@93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 23:20:59 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:57 wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:23:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.22.168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:40 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-181-44.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:25:39 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:11 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC960BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:30:50 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:31:28 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:38:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-164.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:57 genericus [~user@71-9-194-123.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:17 vibs29 [~lisper@host86-130-161-248.range86-130.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:53 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-242-76-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:50:25 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:36 normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:58 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:54:33 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.93.156] has joined #lisp 23:58:16 ASau`` [~user@p54AFF586.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:59:31 sohail_ [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp