00:00:00 Alfr: yes, it will raise questions over "why the fuck did you do this stupid algorithm"? 00:00:04 *nyef* has Inside Macintosh volumes I-V on his bookshelf. 00:00:08 f0 0f c7 c8 on early Intel pentiums ... no matter what language/type system you use! 00:00:14 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF70F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:00:18 Alfr: anyway, that's why you make assumptions, and that's why preventing an oom in compile-time is impossible. But having linear types for memory management is still better than a garbage collector, because you'll have... a deterministic control over your memory 00:00:23 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@55.Red-88-5-225.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:29 For the OS it might have been, but for the apps you still could have memory problems. 00:00:33 And there was STILL a system heap. 00:01:00 i'm running on a Turing machine, no worries about getting out of memory 00:01:07 Alfr: while in a garbage collected language this problem will still potentially happen, but you can't possibly make a better structure for it to run properly, since you can't know when the GC will free resources for you 00:01:15 stassats: No, all your worries are about the lack of I/O capability. 00:01:32 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:34 "Can you get a Turing machine with USB 3.0 ports?) 00:01:51 Denommus, if you need that, e.g. real time requirements, sure. But otherwise, why bother? Since somehow it will limit expressiveness. 00:01:54 *nyef* is sufficiently inebriated to not be able to balance his quotes properly. 00:02:07 Did I not 'hear' the Turing language referred to earlier? That is always on-topic imho! 00:02:22 nyef: sure, with an infinitely many USB 3.0 ports 00:02:31 mmmm turing machines. I love me some linear memory access. 00:02:31 Alfr: I said it before, and I'll say it again: it is a trade-off. Sometimes you need it, sometimes you don't 00:02:48 Denommus: I think that some of the issues with GC can be solved by giving the programmer knobs to explicitly control it. 00:02:48 Alfr: Common Lisp is still my favorite language, and it is dynamically typed and garbage collected! 00:03:21 Several high-speed iOS games were written in Gambit-C; they solved the GC pause problem by calling (##gc) on every frame 00:03:21 bitwize: I don't think so. It is still non-deterministical, you don't know how many resources a GC will free when it runs 00:03:25 bjz: Typed racket is fully sound (modulo an occasional bug). 00:03:32 bitwize: while you can reason about lifetimes and ownerships 00:03:33 One of these days, I'd like to write a non-stop-the-world collector for SBCL. But I still don't have a good angle and sufficient time for it. /-: 00:04:00 eli: ah, yes. It's just not that expressive 00:04:32 Denommus: Huh? It's *very* expressive, in the sense that you need to choose a type, unlike HM where there is no choice. 00:04:49 -!- seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:56 eli: so, how do I create something similar to a trait/typeclass? 00:05:01 seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has joined #lisp 00:05:23 -!- crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:06:04 Denommus: It's not yet dealing with classes (though I might be wrong since they're working on that right now so maybe it is) and with generics (which is the equivalent of type classes). 00:06:27 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 00:06:32 generics isn't the equivalent of type classes O.o 00:06:51 generics are type variables 00:06:55 type classes are traits 00:07:06 Gnerics in the racket sense ("methods" that attached to structs); not in the CLOS sense. 00:07:31 ah 00:07:31 Generics are parameterized types -- or rather, functions taking types to types 00:07:55 generics are off-topic 00:08:08 well, I need to go 00:08:35 *eli* has no intention to claim "generics" from whatever it might be used for, it's obviously a generic term. 00:08:38 The lack of generics has been one of C's biggest downfalls 00:08:49 C11 has them but I hate the implementation. 00:09:07 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 00:09:20 poor C, nobody uses it 00:10:03 What are generics exactly? 00:10:56 Are they just objects that store their type information with their data? 00:10:58 consult outside sources? 00:11:02 Parameterized types 00:11:04 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:11:42 Or functions parameterized over the types of their inputs 00:11:48 stassats: I read up on them but I feel like I'm missing something significant because people go on and on about them. 00:12:30 They don't store type information 00:12:57 Not necessarily 00:13:18 But each time you use a generic type or function with different type parameters, you get a different implementation. 00:13:20 Generic functions I understand - awesome things. When bitwize said that "lack of generics has been one of C's biggest downfalls" it led me again to think I was missing something. 00:14:13 In C++ templates this is implemented by generating a new instantiation each time a different template parameter is passed into a template. 00:14:20 Per compilation unit. 00:14:23 fooflare [~fooflare@x2f63144.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 00:15:07 But I thought that in Java the point of generics was to be able to store diverse objects within containers - you can only do that if you have type info embedded with the object - isn't that correct? 00:15:14 drmeister: i gather that it's some way some languages are trying to catch up with lisp 00:15:21 drmeister: Except Java doesn't actually DO that 00:15:33 So it doesn't really have generics in the sense that C++ or C# do. 00:15:36 stassats: That was my thought as well. 00:15:48 "oh bother, the type system is to rigid, we need to add some buzzwords from category theory to solve that!" 00:16:02 When you declare a LinkedList in Java, the compiler checks that the arguments passed in are Ts 00:16:15 And then emits the code for a LinkedList of Objects 00:16:34 This is called type erasure. 00:17:25 bitwize: Ok, that's like C++ templates. 00:17:26 they have a knack for coming up with fancy names, i give them that 00:17:42 By contrast, in C# the implementation for a LinkedList and a LinkedList is different, with different run time code, for distinct types S and T. 00:17:54 drmeister: no, C++ is more like C# in this regard 00:18:20 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@179.208.163.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:20:14 Hmm. I don't quite follow. I totally understand the C++ way of doing things and the Lisp way of doing things. Java - not so much. 00:20:44 maybe there's a better places than #lisp for understanding Java 00:21:16 i hear C++ templating lets you do compile-time introspection on types, which you can't do in lisp. 'course it's templates so noone knows how to do it 00:21:28 stassats: Sure - I'm just interested in everything about programming. 00:22:49 On a different topic - are there any Common Lisp implementations that use precise garbage collection? 00:23:00 Bike: it could be weakly specified, like all the type declarations 00:23:13 What? 00:23:15 a conforming implementation can always just retunt T 00:23:40 What constitutes "precise" garbage collection here? 00:23:46 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:fc5a:414d:2136:b33b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:50 oh, well, sure, but there's no conforming mechanism for "what's the type of this variable" anyway 00:24:06 it isn't specified, but it could be specified 00:24:12 nyef: Exact rooting - not using conservative GC on the stack. 00:24:16 without any contradictions 00:24:17 yeah, it's in cltl2 00:24:31 Ah, yeah. SBCL on anything other than a x86oid comes to mind. 00:24:31 and sbcl's internals, of course 00:25:11 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 00:25:21 nyef: Really? I didn't know that. Why not x86oid? 00:25:25 sbcl has some problems with the progress of type propagation, sometimes it gets derailed and optimizes things too soon 00:25:30 register poverty, wasn't it 00:25:46 Not enough registers on x86 to partition the register set, which also meant not splitting the stacks. 00:25:47 laziness, as always 00:26:11 We could split the stacks and partition the register set on x86-64, but... 00:26:17 What is "partition the register set" and what does it do for GC? 00:26:18 -!- fooflare [~fooflare@x2f63144.dyn.telefonica.de] has left #lisp 00:26:34 whether a register can contain a pointer or not 00:26:39 Separate registers which may hold boxed values from registers which may only hold unboxed (or immediate) values. 00:26:50 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:26:58 Oh, I see 00:29:10 One of the issues with the SBCL ARM port is the register pressure, because we DO try to maintain a partitioned register set, but we need a certain number of boxed registers and a certain number of unboxed registers... 00:30:00 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:31:04 (I think I've got the worst of that nailed down by now, but scaring up a register for TLS is going to be a pain when the time comes.) 00:32:34 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:32:37 I think that CCL also uses a precise collector. 00:33:02 it does 00:33:09 That's interesting - so it's a feature of the processor that eases implementation of precise garbage collection. 00:33:16 it uses register maps when necessary 00:33:26 And I have a couple of schemes in mind for SBCL that would net precise collection on x86, but which would take more effort to implement than I currently have time for. 00:33:53 drmeister: a good tagged architecture would be best 00:34:01 heh 00:34:43 You mean a lispm. 00:34:50 Good luck reviving that dream. 00:35:10 i don't, and it wasn't a dream 00:35:16 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:51 It was real, but it was expensive and handily outpaced by commodity hardware, making the extra cost difficult to justify. 00:37:00 i don't want to discuss lisp machines 00:37:23 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 00:37:27 So, here's the thing: We could turn any modern laptop into a LispM, but it's far more trouble than it's worth. 00:37:49 but think of the hacker news upvotes, nyef! 00:38:32 Bike: I'd rather think of deploying an SaaS system that actually makes money on a recurring basis. 00:38:52 system as a service? 00:38:58 Software as a Service. 00:39:12 ah. no good with the business stuff 00:39:32 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:39:37 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 00:40:10 *drmeister* would rather build catalysts that convert carbon dioxide and water into high-octane fuel. 00:40:28 that's not green 00:40:42 -!- Twipply [~Twipply3@cpc17-mapp10-2-0-cust179.12-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:41:21 ... Convert CO2 and H2O into... C8H18? 00:41:25 It's the greenest idea there is. 00:41:36 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:c698:a1d0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:03 and oxygen! i like oxygen, personally 00:42:13 nyef: Plus lots of O2 - it's too much trouble to balance the equation - you get the idea. 00:42:51 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:43:15 My goal is to use Common Lisp to help me do that. 00:43:23 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.22] has joined #lisp 00:43:36 too bad common lisp is not modern enough 00:43:45 Okay, aside from the problems getting reasonably pure H2O, especially at scale... How do you do this without requiring large amounts of input energy in some fashion? 00:44:33 -!- jasom_ is now known as jasom 00:44:52 nyef: You use large amounts of input energy - there's this giant ball of exploding hydrogen just 8 light minutes away from us. 00:45:32 ... Fine. And how does this work? 00:45:53 how can it make garbage collection precise? 00:46:14 You just need the right molecules to do the heavy lifting - and by heavy lifting I mean capture sunlight, split water, reduce CO2 and a few more steps. 00:46:33 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:41 stassats: Oh, hush. This is no worse than the traditional late-night libertarian-and-gun-control discussions that we used to have here back in the day. 00:47:17 drmeister: So, you're looking to do some molecular engineering, is that it? 00:47:20 stassats: You have the causality backwards. Precise garbage collection enables solar fuels. There's a few technological steps in between but we can quibble about them some other time. 00:48:06 nyef: I do molecular engineering. I'm an organic chemistry professor at Temple University. 00:48:16 Sweet. 00:48:34 Have you ever heard of the "Feynmann prize in Nanotechnology"? 00:48:38 Nope. 00:48:46 Willing to learn about it, though. (-: 00:48:49 "See how one chemistry professor made free energy. OPEC hates him" 00:49:20 Richard Feynmann? Nobel prize winner, physicist? Gave a lecture "There's plenty of room at the bottom" - Nanotechnology? 00:49:29 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:49:37 considering nyef mentioned a feynman story just a few minutes ago, i think it's safe to know he knows /that/ part 00:49:57 Really? I missed that - too bad. 00:50:25 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50:29 drmeister: do you have time constraints? because you can achieve that in several millions of years without doing a thing 00:50:31 Anyway the Feynman prize is a scientific prize for advancements in nanotechnology. I'm the 2005 awardee. 00:50:40 oh. that's neat. 00:50:51 I have pretty serious time-constraints. I also like to build stuff. 00:51:13 And civilization has time-constraints. 00:51:23 and i was the Time person of the year 00:51:32 ha 00:52:02 stassats: What a coinkydink - so was I! 00:52:33 fmeyer [~fmeyer@179.208.163.134] has joined #lisp 00:53:16 vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-4.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:02 So anyway, I talked to Temple's IP people today - I just have a little bit of paperwork to fill out and I can open source the code I've been working on. 00:55:33 yay 00:55:37 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:43 yay, i can poke holes in it! 00:56:12 stassats: I've been living for that day :-) 00:56:14 *Xach* emailed Corman about Corman CL again this week 00:56:53 Xach: IIRC, you were trying to get him to open-source it? 00:56:59 My plan is to release the Common Lisp system and the C++ refactoring system built on top of it. 00:57:14 does it have a GUI? 00:57:15 "refactoring system"? 00:57:26 I think it's going to be a killer app. 00:58:38 nyef: Yes - it's Common Lisp application built on clang's ASTMatcher and refactoring library. It lets you load C++ Abstract-Syntax-Trees from source code and search for patterns and write CL code that rewrites bad API's. 00:58:59 drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:23 That's kindof neat... Though having one that would work on Lisp code rather than C++ code would be more useful to me. (-: 00:59:37 I'm using it to write static analyzers that identify potential memory leaks so that I can implement garbage collection. 01:00:28 A lisp one would be easy. 01:00:30 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:00:51 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:01:34 Isn't there such a thing? Read in S-exps and match patterns and rewrite them - that would be really easy to implement. 01:01:57 nyef: yes, he wants to do it. a few months ago he was trying to choose a license. 01:02:09 he agreed that there is no commercial interest in it for him any more 01:03:19 drmeister: that's not very useful, distinguishing between variables and other structures would be more useful 01:04:27 stassats: Ok - so you need the front end of a compiler that will convert the Sexps into an abstract syntax tree. When I rewrite my compiler I'll follow the clang model. 01:04:30 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:48 and then there are macros 01:06:03 Macros - that's a tricky one. They are used so heavily. In clang they handle C-preprocessor macros and template programming. I don't know if what they do is scalable to the level of macro use in Common Lisp. 01:06:18 I'll keep that in mind. 01:07:42 Yeah, that's a sticky wicket. 01:07:45 What I'm finding in my work is that the more declarative my "code" is, the easier it is to maintain and the less buggy it is, which starts to push things towards either an interpreter pattern or the use of macros to generate code. 01:08:16 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:08:40 i like MOP for declarativeness 01:09:04 I've always found the MOP to be fragile magic, 01:09:26 I understand macros. I know how to test macros to make sure that they work "right". 01:09:45 And I know when and how things tend to break when I use macros. 01:10:07 -!- pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:13:43 If I try to use my Common Lisp interpreter (S-expression evaluator) boot ECL's CLOS source code - it literally takes days of processing time to just boot to the REPL prompt. It's because it expands macros over and over again. So now, as soon as I load the source code for the compiler I hook into the REPL and compile S-exps right after they are read. Then it only takes minutes to boot. 01:14:13 -!- axion__ [~axion@96.236.16.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:15:08 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15:09 Then I load everything and recompile everything again to bitcode, link the 70-odd bitcode files together using link-time-optimization and inlining, compile the bitcode down to native code and write out a dynamic library (bundle). 01:15:10 Why would you need to expand macros more than once per call-site? 01:15:27 That bundle takes only a few seconds to load and boot to the REPL prompt. 01:16:03 nyef: That's the interpreter that does that. It doesn't rewrite the S-expressions that it evaluates. 01:16:06 few seconds is too much 01:16:22 stassats: Right - that's why I need a better compiler and garbage collection. 01:16:45 how about saving images? 01:17:31 The benchmarks that I've run put my compiled code at about 650x slower than SBCL. I'm both proud and embarrassed by that. 01:17:34 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:07 and than ECL? 01:18:16 What about ECL? 01:18:23 How much faster than ECL? 01:18:28 yes 01:18:37 Hmmm, let me check. 01:19:52 axion__ [~axion@96.236.16.178] has joined #lisp 01:20:27 23x slower for a little fibonacci sequence test. 01:20:47 That's the built in compiler, I don't think it's compiling to C. 01:21:01 *drmeister* never really understood the ECL compile to C thingy 01:22:05 Here's the fn: (defun fib (n) (if (< n 2) n (+ (fib (1- n)) (fib (- n 2))))) 01:22:34 how do you bignum? 01:22:43 Here's the disassembled code: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/400b3dce3fd31ac13254 01:22:56 There's a lot of room for improvement. 01:23:06 stassats: GMP library. 01:23:19 i can't read that disassembled code 01:23:37 can you give real assembly? 01:23:41 It's LLVM-IR. 01:23:50 Hmmmm. 01:24:38 I need to figure that out. 01:25:20 Why a new Lisp implementation, and why LLVM? 01:25:36 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-184-249.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:08 because sbcl is hard to understand 01:26:30 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@179.208.163.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:51 Okay, SBCL is hard to understand. I've been trying for north of a decade now, and am still badly lost in places. 01:29:03 cutting bignums into pieces ain't easy 01:29:11 -!- seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:29:15 nyef: I needed tight interoperation with C++. There was no implementation that does that. 01:29:36 all those bound calculations, and then negative bignums have no bounds 01:29:39 Ah, okay. That's a fair reason, and rings a vague bell. 01:30:05 *stassats* can't get minimal-consing LDB for bignums right 01:30:52 stassats: I'm going to have to figure out how to pull out the native code for a function. I can break within the function in the debugger but it will take me some time to figure out how to disassemble the range of code that corresponds to a particular function. 01:31:00 minimal-consing LDB for bignums? 01:32:00 nyef: (logand (ash integer (- posn)) (1- (ash 1 size))) conses like memory is going out of style 01:33:10 it even conses when the result is fixnum 01:33:28 Hrm. There's probably some dreadfully-clever optimization that the compiler could do to that. 01:33:52 i'm just calculating the size of the result bignum, allocate it, and copy by hand 01:34:38 and handle fixnum -> fixnum, fixnum -> bignum, bignum->fixnum cases specifically 01:35:23 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC3DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35:52 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:11 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 01:36:14 nyef: for inlined fixnum cases, (logand (ash integer (- posn)) (1- (ash 1 size))) is alright 01:37:07 So, some sort of LDB/BIGNUM=>FIXNUM VOP? 01:37:27 nyef: LLVM because it's hot and it has a lot of support. It's a great library. It doesn't provide much support when it comes to garbage collection. 01:37:28 just lisp code, VOP would be too much 01:38:29 i just can't get right, all those misalignment, straddling several bignum digits, etc. 01:40:11 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@f052152149.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:45:30 stselikh [~stselikh@77.35.226.72] has joined #lisp 01:45:59 -!- stselikh [~stselikh@77.35.226.72] has left #lisp 01:46:54 pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 01:47:52 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [] 01:48:21 -!- pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:48:39 pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 01:49:20 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:30 -!- davazp [~user@14.Red-79-152-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:51 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:55 stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:5cf7:d35a:8672:42c9] has joined #lisp 03:34:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 03:35:36 atgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-105-78.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 03:37:31 aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 03:40:27 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.22] has joined #lisp 03:40:40 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@24-158-53-204.dhcp.hckr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:07 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:50:17 ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:19 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:54:02 Ravic [~Ravic@ip68-8-253-101.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:29 -!- yates [~user@nc-67-232-27-161.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 03:54:29 So 03:54:45 -!- Ravic [~Ravic@ip68-8-253-101.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 03:57:20 TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-213-213.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:56 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-4.thefacebook.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:16 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@117.35.188.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:45 michael_lee [~michael_l@117.35.188.160] has joined #lisp 04:06:49 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:07:43 brandonz [~brandon@c-50-131-126-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:55 When I use CASE, CCASE, and ECASE in a package, why does it assume that in e.g. ((ccase symbol ((foobar) (foo)))) that 'foobar is package-name:foobar when you use the function outside of the package? 04:08:03 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:08:43 because the package your code is read in is the one it will intern FOOBAR and such in 04:10:32 But why does it need to actually treat foobar as if it exists and not just do something like (eq symbol 'foobar) which presumably doesn't need foobar to exist? 04:11:13 what? yes it does 04:11:21 it's right there. you wrote it, "foobar", so it is read 04:11:50 so (eq symbol 'foobar) would also actually check to see if it's equal to package-name:foobar when used outside of the package? 04:12:11 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:12:19 yes 04:12:24 That's rather inconvenient. 04:12:25 symbols are things in themselves, they have a package attached 04:12:42 foo:bar and baz:bar are distinct 04:12:45 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:03 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:15:27 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:16:49 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 04:18:26 -!- cheier [~cheier@c-98-251-147-85.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: cheier] 04:19:18 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@117.35.188.160] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 04:19:51 Well, then, it looks like the extremely simple-to-write way of representing another language in s-expressions doesn't work. It probably wouldn't have worked anyway because iirc the Scheme version used lots and lots of recursion. 04:20:47 you could just use the same package 04:20:48 Basically using case and recursion over a list to substitute some quoted s-expression subset with strings representing a subset of the target language. 04:21:45 michael_lee [~michael_l@117.35.188.160] has joined #lisp 04:22:12 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:25:55 Bike: Yeah, the problem doesn't exist when it's the same package but mixing the game engine (very much a library) with the game assets would defeat the purpose. 04:26:10 Plus, SLIME likes to complain and that does slow me down. 04:26:48 well i mean, have a package LANG for the interpreter, LANG-CODE for your user code in the language, and have (ccase symbol ((lang-code:foobar) ...)) and so on 04:27:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:27:43 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 04:30:35 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:31:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 04:31:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 04:31:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:31:45 ah, found out how to avoid all of this. I can just prefix the symbol with : 04:31:52 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.174.21.192] has quit [Quit: ...] 04:31:56 -!- wormphlegm [~wormphleg@162.243.235.129] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:32:00 keywords? works i guess 04:32:26 wormphlegm [~wormphleg@162.243.235.129] has joined #lisp 04:32:39 crixxus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 04:33:03 -!- tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@24-158-53-204.dhcp.hckr.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:33:14 -!- ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:33:47 tertl3-laptop [~tertl3-la@24-158-53-204.dhcp.hckr.nc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:02 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:35:55 ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 04:36:44 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:38:29 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:41:05 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.117.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:41:29 -!- crixxus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:48:29 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 04:49:18 -!- frxx [frx@93-138-71-222.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:49:51 frx [frx@78-1-157-147.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:50:56 vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 04:51:46 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 04:53:25 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:54:53 nyef: At what point do you have enough registers that you can split them up into pointer/non-pointer sets? x86_64 has 16 64bit registers - is that enough? 04:55:56 I think the more interesting question is -- what is the cost of expressing which registers encode which types? 04:56:01 by the way, drmeister, i looked up your faculty page and (a) it doesn't mention the feynman award and (b) those are some scary-looking abstracts 04:56:34 And when that cost increases above a certain point, a hard-coded distribution may become cost-effective. 04:56:38 Bike: I need to update that web page - I haven't been promoting myself very well over the last two years. I kind of got caught up with other things. 04:56:52 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:57:13 having updates from more than five years ago makes you faster than the majority of academic webpages :) 04:57:45 That is true. 04:58:04 from less than* 04:58:20 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:58:52 Funny, I read what you meant to say and not what you said. 04:59:21 Language contains redundancy. 04:59:49 anyway, on topic, i kind of wonder about things like that, like that trick whatshisname mentioned once, where you segregate memory pages by type. does anyone do that? i don't think so, in which case i'm curious why not 05:00:21 Typed memory pools? 05:00:30 yeah. 05:00:31 Tends to have terrible cache coherence in modern machines. 05:00:38 mm thought that might be it 05:00:59 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:09 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:02:35 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03:22 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:39 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:09:18 drmeister: There are a few constraints in SBCL. One is that most backends require some number of "interior pointers", you have to have at least as many "unboxed" registers than there are C arg-passing registers plus one for your "number frame pointer", you have to have at least three (boxed) Lisp arg-passing registers plus one for the function being called, plus a temporary, your control stack and frame pointers, typically an "inter 05:09:18 ior pointer", a pointer to the current code component, and that's already up to fourteen. 05:09:25 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:09:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:09:54 Oh, and depending on your CPU instruction set, having one for NIL becomes very, very handy. 05:10:45 Figuring out what the actual practical requirements were was quite a juggling act for the ARM backend, especially since it has only fifteen usable registers (the sixteenth being the program counter). 05:11:45 There are other places in the design space to explore, though, including partitioning the eight registers that the x86 has (yes, I'm including ESP as one of the eight). 05:12:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:13:06 Another one is to have a map of live boxed registers for each instruction boundary that the GC knows where to find. No need to partition the registers as long as the GC knows where its roots are (and which roots it can relocate). 05:15:03 The map of live boxed registers is something we are discussing in #llvm. Currently llvm doesn't provide much support for garbage collection (ignore the web pages that say they do - lies - all lies!). 05:15:21 sellout-1 [~Adium@174-16-117-96.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:27 What is an "instruction boundary"? 05:15:49 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:16:41 It's the point after one instruction and before the next instruction. 05:16:57 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:18:07 It's pretty basic stuff, I believe that DWARF maintains some debug information (especially unwind information) on similar boundaries, given that some instructions push stuff to the stack or pop stuff off of the stack. 05:18:30 the DWARF stuff there is the CFI part of DWARF. 05:18:57 Between two instruction boundaries there can be more than one machine instruction - correct? 05:20:14 I'm somewhat familiar with DWARF - I implemented generation of line/lexical-scope/function DWARF metadata within my compiler. 05:20:17 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 05:20:43 Also, I've spent a LOT of time debugging and digging into itanium exception handling - what a can of worms. 05:20:57 Any random two? Sure. Between two adjacent boundaries not so much. There's a boundary before and after each instruction, after all (though not much point tracking them after an unconditional control flow instruction). 05:21:55 I mean - you need a map that changes whenever the register map changes. 05:22:01 Yes. 05:22:23 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 05:22:41 Ok, I get that. It's something many of us would very much like LLVM to do. 05:23:13 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:23:19 It's a subset of your register map saying which registers contain boxed possibly-pointer values, and which registers are displaced relative to a boxed pointer (useful on some architectures for a number of things, and in SBCL the program counter is almost always relative to one of a small set of registers). 05:25:23 oxum [~oxum@122.164.229.74] has joined #lisp 05:26:39 aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 05:26:58 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 05:28:03 -!- JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:28:55 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 05:29:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:29:34 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 05:30:51 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 05:31:28 I'm not sure how much control we have over registers in LLVM - it's one of the things the library takes care of.i 05:33:42 Can you at least get a map of registers vs. content types? 05:34:40 Umm... Or you could simplify the process, only allow GC or interrupts at safepoints, and make sure that everything is in known positions at the safepoints. 05:34:41 -!- chenjf [~chenjf@113.95.105.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:35:20 If you had a register map like that as well as a stack map of where in each stack frame were stored pointers - I guess if you called the garbage collector from an arbitrary point, it would push all the registers onto the stack, check the return address, use that return address to identify what registers had contained pointers, execute the moving garbage collector using the stack maps and modify the stack bound reg 05:35:20 ister values that you pushed there using the register map? 05:35:24 pecg_ [~pecg@190.92.53.167] has joined #lisp 05:35:33 chenjf [~chenjf@14.209.215.129] has joined #lisp 05:35:44 Yes, exactly. 05:36:16 -!- stumbles [~stumbles@2001:44b8:41c5:9600:5cf7:d35a:8672:42c9] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:36:20 Yay \o/! 05:37:09 If you only have a statistical test for "probable roots", like we have with x86oid SBCL, you can't relocate any of the "probable roots", but that doesn't mean that you can't in theory move everything ELSE in those memory pages. 05:38:11 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:38:25 nyef: That is exactly what the Memory Pool System from Ravenbrook does. How well does it work if you move stuff involving heap pointers but not move stuff that has possible roots from the stack? 05:39:02 -!- pecg_ [~pecg@190.92.53.167] has quit [Client Quit] 05:39:30 sbcl is pretty darn fast with conservative GC. 05:40:04 SBCL uses an even stronger version of this, it won't move anything on the pages pinned from the conservative roots, and will treat the allocated portions of such pages as containing entirely live objects. 05:41:49 I ended up tightening up the conservative root validation in SBCL recently, and I have half-formed designs for a number of improvements, but some things really do need accurate register and stack maps. 05:42:40 A partitioned register set and separate boxed and unboxed stacks means you set the register and stack maps when you design the system, rather than in the compiler on a per-function (and more granular) basis. 05:43:49 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:44:00 nyef: I see now what you mean by split stack. 05:44:30 So you literally have two stacks, one that you push/pop pointers to objects and the other for non-pointer data. 05:44:55 Yes. 05:44:56 Do all tagged pointers go on the pointer stack or just object pointer pointers? 05:45:30 One stack for tagged data (or untagged data that LOOKS like harmless tagged data), one stack for everything else. 05:46:15 What is "untagged data that looks like harmless tagged data" - that confuses and alarms me. 05:46:19 -!- jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:46:28 A case of the untagged data that is "safe" for the boxed stack in SBCL is that any word-aligned pointer in memory has the low two or three bits as zero, which the GC recognizes as a FIXNUM. 05:47:54 Ok - I assumed that was a tagged pointer but you mean since the low bits are zero it is a FIXNUM. 05:48:09 Tagged immediate value. 05:48:35 I'll copy this conversation to Evernote and read it again tomorrow - more of it will make sense. 05:48:59 There are other tagged immediates, and there are also tagged pointers -- such as pointers to conses. 05:49:43 Going back to the "displaced relative to a boxed pointer" thing for a second... 05:49:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:50:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 05:50:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 05:50:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:50:51 Yeah, I didn't get that either. 05:50:53 If you look in SBCL src/runtime/gc-common.c, the section starting with "/* Scavenging Interrupt Contexts */", there will be an explanation of "interior pointer" registers. 05:51:11 Cool - I'll take a look at that. 05:51:13 That I wrote about two and a half years ago now. 05:51:30 Three and a half years ago now. 05:52:11 Time flies huh? ... So you haven't implemented register maps in SBCL? 05:52:42 No, we use a fixed register map on most systems, and conservative roots on x86oids. 05:53:27 Is it a hard problem to implement register maps? 05:54:06 Actually, we have some level of register map simply for debugger support, but it's not granular enough for the GC. 05:54:29 I'm not sure how hard it is, to be honest. 05:54:44 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:54:59 We'd have to be tracking TN lifetimes down to the instruction level rather than the VOP level, at the least. 05:55:18 TN lifetimes? 05:55:27 VOP level? 05:55:40 Sorry, Python backend terms. 05:56:09 A TN is a "Temporary Name", basically a bit of storage. 05:56:26 No problem, it's just when I hit an acronym I don't understand it's a bit of a show stopper so I ask. 05:56:53 ggole [~ggole@106-68-28-38.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:56:58 A VOP is a "Virtual OPeration", basically a function for generating some assembly code and a chunk of metadata to describe when and how to use it. 05:57:16 So TN lifetime means how long a particular register carries a particular meaning? 05:57:29 Well, virtual register. :) 05:57:52 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:58:29 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:59:22 Yeah, VOPs will specify that they need some inputs that are in TNs with particular storage properties, and that they produce results in TNs with particular storage properties, and require temporary TNs with particular storage properties... 06:01:58 So, something like a VOP for adding two FIXNUM inputs and producing a FIXNUM result would basically say that it wants its inputs in registers and that its output must also be in a register, and the compiler will assign TNs and arrange for this to be the case, inserting "load" and "save" code if the values aren't in the right place at the start or end. 06:02:01 "So nat'ralists observe, a flea Hath smaller fleas that on him prey; And these have smaller fleas to bite 'em. And so proceeds Ad infinitum." 06:02:29 I see. 06:02:37 More likely to be Ad nauseum, but yeah. 06:03:29 Doesn't rhyme - sorry. 06:04:00 I'm getting a little punchy - it's late here. This has been very, very illuminating - thank you very much. 06:04:31 I think I'll be wandering off to bed. 06:04:32 Mmm. It's just gone one AM here. 06:04:38 Sleep well. 06:04:41 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-50-131-126-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:05:38 nyef: Ditto - we are in the same time-zone. 06:05:44 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:06:05 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-159-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:49 -!- jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jhao] 06:07:00 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:10:51 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:14 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 06:12:13 drmeister: SBCL commit 68508f10fb9c235d1f29a55b05f5158e90b8e0b6 has some bits about interior pointers in its commit message. 06:12:39 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 06:14:00 nyef: You mean interior pointers as in pointers that point not to the beginning of an object in memory but within the object? I use them a lot in C++ (multiple and virtual inheritance) and they are a problem for the Memory Pool System. 06:14:37 If so - that will be interesting reading for me - thank you. 06:15:30 Mmm. Our restriction is that we only honor interior pointers within the register set, and a proper tagged pointer to the object must also be in the register set. 06:16:29 We could eliminate most non-control-flow uses of interior-pointer registers, but it's mostly not worth the effort. 06:18:11 drmeister: are you using MPS for garbage collectin? 06:18:52 jasom: Yes, working on it. 06:19:20 I've implemented all of the MPS required functions - I'm just working on tracking down all of the roots. 06:19:31 All of the roots in my C++ code. 06:20:01 jasom: Why - have you used it? 06:20:08 drmeister: no, but was considering it 06:20:16 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 06:20:41 It looks great and the main guy at Ravenbrook is really reponsive - he wrote a patch for me to handle interior pointers. 06:21:02 Bike: separating memory pages by type turns out to be less of a win than tag bits, since you need to box fixnums always 06:22:10 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:21 er, what? 06:22:24 drmeister: I agree that it looks great and IIRC it has its roots in a Dylan implementation 06:23:14 Bike: you asked about separating memory regions by type, and one reason to do that is you eliminate type tags in your pointers (since you can tell from the high-bits of the address what type it is) typically that eliminates tag bits altogether, which means boxing fixnums 06:23:15 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:40 oh, you mean like when they're in registers? 06:24:00 Bike: when passing opaque types 06:24:09 hm. 06:24:18 "I have this word-sized thing, what is it?" 06:24:22 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.22] has joined #lisp 06:25:39 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 06:26:18 nyef: I'd love to talk tomorrow or whenever and pick your brains about what I could do to improve the speed of my implementation - if you wouldn't mind. 06:26:35 Mmm. Hardware that uses high-tags or BIBOP typically has to mask down for FIXNUM operations. 06:26:56 Right now I better get to bed before my head flops onto my keyboard and #lisp is flooded with autorepeated keys for the next 6 hours. 06:27:09 'night all. 06:27:11 drmeister: Not a problem. Most of what I need to get done for work tomorrow is mapping more stuff from JSON to the database and back. 06:27:18 Sleep well. 06:27:41 (I should have signed off somewhere around three hours ago.) 06:27:45 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-145-64.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 06:29:45 BIBOP seems like it could wreck your locality, too 06:30:12 (cons (vector) number), each part guaranteed to be in different pages. 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08:42:20 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.66.223] has joined #lisp 08:42:35 ubikation [~user@c-67-166-81-173.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:54 hey I'm sorry but how do I grep to find projects using a given library? 08:43:39 <_death> ql:who-depends-on 08:46:10 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 08:46:13 prxq [~mommer@x2f6d30c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 08:48:19 _death: thanks! 08:48:39 harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has joined #lisp 08:51:46 zophy [venom@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:46 why doesn't (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (format t "hello~%")) work? 08:58:13 Because the *standard-output* is not bound in the new thread. 08:58:50 Shinmera: I'm really just screwing around to learn how to use threads. I guess writing to standard-output isn't thread safe? 08:58:53 Because bordeaux-threads:make-thread takes a function designator, and CL:NIL doesn't designate any function. 08:58:58 LtCrData [~LtCrData@host109-148-126-212.range109-148.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:19 Also what pjb said, but I was assuming you were actually writing the format in a lambda. 08:59:54 I forgot the lambda; sorry for wasting your time. 09:00:34 (bordeaux-threads:make-thread #'(lambda () (format T "Hi.~%")) :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*))) 09:00:44 Beetny_ [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-4.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:51 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-43-4.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:01:51 -!- Beetny_ is now known as Beetny 09:02:30 -!- vsync [~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:02:46 vkrest_ [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 09:03:19 also what's up with initial-bindings as a parameter... the docs say it's inheritable by children threads? 09:03:50 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:05:12 is that true for sbcl? 09:06:40 I don't know what you mean by "inheritable". 09:07:58 apparently children threads will copy the bindings in the parents initial-binding if they aren't explicitly overwritten in the :initial-bindings 09:09:05 I am guessing this is only if you create new bordeaux-threads in a bordeaux-thread. But I might be misunderstanding things. 09:09:36 Shinmera: that's what I meant. 09:10:14 Yeah, well, the repl isn't a bordeaux-thread, so 09:10:17 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:10:21 I'm sorry I'm new to cl and not that good at conveying my thoughts sometimes 09:11:01 I don't know much about the inner workings of bordeaux-threads either, I only know a few things from my own experimentation with them. Hopefully someone with a better understanding can answer your question more appropriately. 09:12:38 <|3b|> ubikation: where are you seeing that? 09:13:09 <|3b|> all the docs i find say it is implementation defined whether the bindings created by 09:13:17 <|3b|> :inittial-bindings are inherited by children 09:14:56 |3b|: sorry that's what I meant; that it's implementation defined. 09:17:10 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-27-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:18:53 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:c698:a1d0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:22:45 -!- CrazyEddy [~ethmopala@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:24:30 CrazyEddy [~invertor@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:29:58 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-lhvplamcallnplnf] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:09 nydel 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quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:04:44 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.118.5] has joined #lisp 14:05:02 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.118.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05:28 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.118.5] has joined #lisp 14:06:54 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:07:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:07:39 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:10:08 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:10:27 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.118.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:13:49 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:14:51 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 14:15:15 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:17:41 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.58.116] has joined #lisp 14:18:51 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.63.119] has joined #lisp 14:23:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:24:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:25:20 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@166.170.32.103] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 14:26:12 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 14:29:10 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:30:27 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:31:38 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@117.35.188.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:31:49 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:56 anyone tried buildapp on windows? 14:35:41 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:28 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 14:39:28 cory786 [~cory@240.sub-70-194-200.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 14:40:15 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.174.21.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:42:49 -!- ndrei [~avo@187.166.101.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:45:22 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:46:02 oxum [~oxum@122.164.77.99] has joined #lisp 14:46:49 -!- nicdev`` is now known as nicdev 14:47:19 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:47:44 -!- sellout- [~Adium@174-16-117-96.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49:36 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@wlan254120.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49:59 -!- cory786 [~cory@240.sub-70-194-200.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:50:02 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:56:18 dim: It worked fine for me last time I tried. 14:56:31 thanks for the feedback 14:56:42 did you use if from the CLI, cmd.exe or something? 14:56:58 If I recall I just used the CMD 14:57:04 I guess I would need to prepare a .bat file to automate it 14:57:31 I want to produce a pgloader.exe file for windows but I've never used windows for work, so... 14:57:32 KaiQ [~localhost@wlan254120.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:37 I didn't quite get everything to work though, but I blame the clusterfuck of dll deployment and commonqt at the time. 14:57:51 maybe best for me would be to find someone who would care about the windows side of things ;-) 14:58:25 pgloader will need some openssl ddl I think, might be optional in the Postmodern sources tho 14:58:34 buildapp itself should work fine, the problem will be finding the dlls that your libs require, if any. 14:58:40 other than that I've been trying to reduce the cffi needs to about none 15:01:01 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 15:04:41 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@222.91.109.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:30 |3b|: thanks, I'll give it another go soon :) 15:07:11 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 15:09:07 cory786 [~cory@240.sub-70-194-200.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:52 LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:14:43 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-27-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:14:47 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:16:36 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 15:19:28 -!- Ben2 [~DCG@119.185.175.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:19:46 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.201.231] has joined #lisp 15:21:57 KDr2 [~KDr2@222.90.228.172] has joined #lisp 15:28:36 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-196.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:17 Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 15:31:18 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.28.198] has joined #lisp 15:32:31 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:32:38 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:32:49 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:06 http://www.reddit.com/r/enterprise/ 15:33:06 woops, wrong channel 15:33:09 -!- Denommus` is now known as Denommus 15:36:47 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 15:40:13 aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:40:45 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:41:33 Pinkyman [~harryw@87.117.251.51] has joined #lisp 15:42:05 pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.28.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:47:05 -!- atgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-105-78.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:47:36 yasha [~yasha@unaffiliated/yasha] has joined #lisp 15:47:48 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-184-249.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:32 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-145-64.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:55 G'morning all. 15:49:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:49:47 -!- pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49:53 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.118.5] has joined #lisp 15:50:00 -!- LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:50:00 pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 15:50:24 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.118.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50:44 pierre1__ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 15:50:44 -!- pierre1__ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Client Quit] 15:51:09 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:21 pierre1__ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 15:51:32 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 15:51:33 -!- pierre1__ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:38 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.20.183] has joined #lisp 15:54:45 -!- pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:55:24 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 15:55:49 nyef: morning. 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[kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.81.83] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys_] 16:25:56 bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has joined #lisp 16:26:51 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.77.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:50 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-rbpqijehykxlpprd] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:28:35 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:28:51 -!- bg451 [~bg451@64.62.178.135] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:57 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 16:29:22 oxum [~oxum@122.164.143.22] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 16:35:23 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:37:23 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 16:38:56 yes 16:39:01 sorry wrong channel 16:39:57 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.63.119] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 16:40:40 senj [~senj@S01065c969d6ee868.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:47 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 -!- senj [~senj@S01065c969d6ee868.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:41:01 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 16:41:34 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:42:42 nha [~prefect@koln-4db428f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:12 hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-102-209.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:44:31 -!- LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:46:30 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 16:49:23 Watcher7 [~w@108.218.1.96] has joined #lisp 16:52:29 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-102-209.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54:10 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@166.170.32.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:54:40 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Sleep Now] 16:54:59 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: conversation closed into mental damage] 16:56:39 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 17:00:49 -!- McMAGIC--Copy [~McMAGIC--@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmagic--copy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:01:56 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:38 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:05:04 LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:43 fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.105.153] has joined #lisp 17:06:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:11:59 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:12:00 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.172] has joined #lisp 17:12:51 phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has joined #lisp 17:13:04 -!- phao [~phao@pontenova.dpi.ufv.br] has left #lisp 17:13:34 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:17:40 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 17:18:59 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:19:40 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:20:29 -!- ft [~ft@149.201.42.118] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-rc1] 17:21:57 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 17:23:12 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-vlckfglqupwjluvb] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:36 does anyone have a good reference about sat solving? Specifically, I'm interested in finding what values falsify a given predicate expressed in terms of =, !=, <=, >= etc... 17:23:53 I'm not even sure it should be called sat solving 17:24:06 is half way between generated testing and model checking 17:25:09 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:27:05 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.20.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:28:02 Looks a bit like linear programming to me 17:28:21 that's the name! 17:28:24 Not something I know much about though. 17:28:27 thanks, I couldn't remember it 17:28:36 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:28:45 Yeah, silly name. 17:29:36 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.28.220] has joined #lisp 17:29:43 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 17:34:40 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:37:00 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:06 rvchangue_ [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-005-152.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:37:44 -!- rvchangue_ is now known as rvchangue 17:37:44 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@cpe-024-074-005-152.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:37:44 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 17:39:18 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-dmjholgipcwmoqul] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:39:27 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:40:18 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 17:40:40 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 17:40:41 Blkt: pkhuong can tell you everything you need to know 17:42:45 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@wlan254120.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:36 Krystof: yes, I read (not the whole, admitedly) his blog entries 17:43:43 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:56 but as I dug on the web, it turned out what I want is satisfiability modulo theories 17:45:13 which is called "implicit programming" on some papers 17:45:21 so, no linear programming today 17:48:15 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC458B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:40 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 17:51:23 Blkt: http://corp.galois.com/blog/2011/1/18/merging-smt-solvers-and-programming-languages.html 17:51:29 -!- ck` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:52:08 Very odd  the people at the next table are discussing lisp. 17:52:15 At this random café. 17:52:25 CL, Scheme, and Clojure have all come up. 17:52:44 Maybe it was Clozure? 17:52:47 sellout-: send them my regards 17:53:35 Xach: Nope, it was spelled out :) 17:53:35 *dkordic* :) 17:55:38 dkordic: thanks 17:55:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56:25 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 17:57:53 -!- bhyde [~bhyde@198.199.88.224] has left #lisp 17:58:47 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:59:12 -!- Guest92875 is now known as Kruppe 18:00:03 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [SeaMonkey 2.26a1/20140106090522]] 18:01:23 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:05:13 lisberoia [~lisberoia@121.36.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:05:53 quit 18:06:01 exit 18:06:05 Jesus 18:06:20 try /quit 18:06:29 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:11 gee thanks 18:08:13 -!- lisberoia [~lisberoia@121.36.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:36 ft [~ft@dyn-46.183.96.49.relaix.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:18 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 18:14:43 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:14:55 gmcastil [~user@97-122-163-48.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:03 /Jesus: unknown command 18:21:34 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:22:36 -!- LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:22:50 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:24:44 Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:25:53 xificurC [~xificurC@pat-ip-195-91-4-241.gprs.as5628.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 18:26:40 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:31:22 amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 18:31:25 -!- Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32:48 pnpuff [~humming@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:33:29 sellout-: where are you? That tends to happen in the Cambridge, Massachusetts area 18:34:02 Random people coming up and going "Excuse me, is that Lisp you're writing?" has been a conversation starter for me more than once 18:34:46 bitwize: Boulder, CO. 18:34:56 Now that IS interesting :) 18:35:03 bitwize: Indeed, I was in Cambridge for ~4 years. Wouldnt surprise me so much there :) 18:35:40 -!- pnpuff [~humming@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:36:12 Secure Outcomes is the closest Lisp company I can think of, but theyre over an hour away. I think the one guy was a prof, maybe at CU. 18:37:06 LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:22 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:37:24 iirc the founder was a prof but not lisper? 18:37:38 <|3b|> isn't there some lisp gfx company there? 18:37:39 Quadrescence used to work with that company afaik, might remember better :) 18:38:10 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:38:14 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:29 p_l: Yeah, he now works with us :) 18:38:37 heh 18:38:42 "us" being? 18:41:23 clodzhure assoc 18:42:46 -!- LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:54 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:43:04 the borg, mark II 18:43:05 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:44:11 *|3b|* supposes it is more educational than graphics, i just only notice the graphics stuff, looks like http://www.agentsheets.com/ is what i was thinking of in CO 18:44:16 Xach: why write it as clodzhure? :) 18:44:34 sellout-: as for clozure vs. clojure, when I hear the name I ask "with a 'z' or a 'j'?" 18:44:53 p_l: i'm cyrillic 18:45:00 and in turn lispers ask me, "do you spell bitwize with a 'z' or a 'j'?" :) 18:45:40 <|3b|> bitwize: obviously they are talking about the web browser, with an 's' 18:45:57 then klodzhure would fit better 18:46:17 note that "hure" means "whore" in german. 18:46:25 Heh. Isn't that web browser the GIMP of the CL GUI world? 18:46:26 just saying. not that you choose something indecent 18:46:47 nyef: meaning? 18:47:09 The GIMP spawned GTK. Closure (the web browser) spawned McCLIM. 18:47:19 H4ns: don't forget the english "clod". 18:47:55 Shinmera: right. thank you for pointing that out as well! 18:47:55 is that so? 18:48:05 even so they still drop down to X for some bits 18:48:09 H4ns: a friend of mine from sweden sent me a pocket dictionary 18:48:14 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Sleep Now] 18:48:25 that code's gonna break in the coming Wayland apocalypse :) 18:50:28 sorabji5` [~user@204.77.5.137] has joined #lisp 18:50:48 -!- sorabji5` [~user@204.77.5.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:09 sorabji5` [~user@204.77.5.137] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 -!- cjwelborn [cjwelborn@gateway/shell/bnc4free/x-wiuukvavmtnqjyge] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:40 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:40 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:52:23 -!- ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:52:30 -!- sorabji5252 [~user@ratio.devvz.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:53:16 cjwelborn [cjwelborn@gateway/shell/bnc4free/x-ppauofdinqjobpdy] has joined #lisp 18:53:18 -!- yasha [~yasha@unaffiliated/yasha] has quit [Quit: yasha] 18:53:26 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 -!- sorabji5` [~user@204.77.5.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:35 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:57:04 ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 18:57:43 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:58:33 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:58:37 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:58:54 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 18:59:45 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 18:59:56 seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has joined #lisp 19:00:57 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-65-180.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:01:26 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:02:49 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9F593.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:03 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:31 twar59 [~twar59@c-71-196-255-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-121-166.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:00 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:07 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:21 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:05:45 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 19:07:41 p_l, sellout-, what about SOI? 19:08:02 InfoIRCNET [~InfoIRCNE@95.244.106.212.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:08:05 Info about IRC http://p.pw/DLV 19:08:06 -!- InfoIRCNET [~InfoIRCNE@95.244.106.212.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 19:09:14 Quadrescence: Just saying that I overheard a conversation about lisp in a Boulder café, and the closest source of lispers I could think of was SOI :) 19:09:57 Ah 19:10:07 Likely not SOI folk. 19:10:09 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 19:10:12 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:11:35 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:11:45 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:38 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:14:08 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 Tyler [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:14:36 -!- Tyler is now known as Guest22580 19:15:25 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Client Quit] 19:15:27 -!- cory786 [~cory@240.sub-70-194-200.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:15:43 -!- Guest22580 is now known as sheilong 19:15:58 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Client Quit] 19:16:27 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:17:38 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:17:46 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:20:43 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:11 bjz_ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 19:23:26 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:30 navneet [~NavNeeT@1.38.19.16] has joined #lisp 19:24:24 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:25:27 bhyde [~bhyde@198.199.88.224] has joined #lisp 19:27:48 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:29:14 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:15 setmeaway [stemearay@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 19:32:47 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:36:43 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 19:37:08 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 19:38:27 -!- twar59 [~twar59@c-71-196-255-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:41:23 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:42:07 xexonixxexillion [~Adium@130.56.86.213] has joined #lisp 19:42:56 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:43:06 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-4.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:18 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:48:47 seangrov` [~user@199.188.194.204] has joined #lisp 19:53:48 -!- seangrov` [~user@199.188.194.204] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:53:55 -!- seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:54:07 seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has joined #lisp 19:55:58 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:56 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-4.thefacebook.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:57:03 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:57:29 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:57:35 mjf42 [~user@0016cbc6ea6c.cpe.westmancom.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:25 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:25 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-173-25.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:35 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:04:47 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:05:45 -!- mjf42 [~user@0016cbc6ea6c.cpe.westmancom.com] has left #lisp 20:21:05 -!- navneet [~NavNeeT@1.38.19.16] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:33 -!- moto9 [~ml@p3E9E08F3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:23:23 does sbcl have tail recursion? 20:23:33 Sometimes. 20:24:14 when doesn't it? 20:24:32 I'm not sure, sorry. 20:24:40 It might be mentioned in the manual. 20:25:14 mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:12 Hi. Has anyone done a Serial Peripheral Interface with lisp? 20:26:27 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:26:34 if (> SPACE DEBUG) or (> SPEED DEBUG) 20:27:23 (declaim (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (speed 3))) 20:28:04 I like the advice to always prefer < and <=, so that the ordering or arguments is from smaller to larger, as in our usual reading 20:28:39 dim: I do too. 20:29:46 -!- wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 20:30:09 all the common lisp except clisp and gcl are properly tail recursive and gcl and clisp may be now too 20:30:22 (SB-FORMAT::%FORMAT # # NIL NIL) 20:30:25 that's quite curious 20:31:36 oh, FORMAT-CONTROL: end of file on # 20:32:21 it seems like the condition's format control depends on the file that was being read at the time of signaling the condition, and we're at end-of-file, and hilarity ensues, somehow 20:33:09 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:47 I'm trying to print # The object is a CONDITION of type CL-CSV:CSV-PARSE-ERROR. ; and its format-control is # The object is a CONDITION of type END-OF-FILE. 20:33:52 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:33:55 I'm quite confused 20:34:12 I can't log the condition because its format-control is an END-OF-FILE condition? 20:36:18 LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:09 moto9 [~ml@p3E9E21E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:38:10 -!- LiamH [~none@173-12-202-100-Albuquerque.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:16 dim: it looks like you may have something like (format stream thing) instead of (format stream "~A" thing) or similar. 20:41:33 that works "fine" when thing is a string (except when it has a tilde in it) 20:42:06 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6d30c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:30 prxq [~mommer@x2f6d30c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 I have (log-message :error "~a" condition), expanding 20:44:09 it expands to (format nil "~{~}" description arguments) 20:44:16 a trick you gave me IIRC ;-) 20:44:47 I need to do that before calling in the cl-log:log-message because it's a macro, so I can't use apply on the &rest arguments 20:45:42 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-160-0-80.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46:29 -!- seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:46:55 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@unaffiliated/cmpitg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:32 -!- dkordic [~danilo@178-223-51-243.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 20:48:34 timb01 [~tim@host81-129-149-38.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:50:36 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:02 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-196.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:52:38 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-158-30.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:56:25 -!- timb01 [~tim@host81-129-149-38.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:15 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:20 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:59:31 cmpitg [~cmpitg@42.112.235.253] has joined #lisp 20:59:31 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@42.112.235.253] has quit [Changing host] 20:59:31 cmpitg [~cmpitg@unaffiliated/cmpitg] has joined #lisp 21:06:10 http://paste.lisp.org/+30UC 21:06:42 this is not loading the .so s. It did so as of last november. Any ideas? 21:06:53 sbcl 1.1.14, latest quicklisp 21:07:23 NewInformator [~NewInform@243.243.106.212.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:07:28 -!- NewInformator [~NewInform@243.243.106.212.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 21:07:40 drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:07:54 uses cffi 21:08:01 (from ql) 21:08:08 or - wait! 21:08:58 no, it's the one from ql. 21:09:23 ok ~s instead of ~a works, by not using the format-control property I guess 21:10:00 any ideas why it is not loading the libs? 21:11:09 francogrex [~user@91.179.194.168] has joined #lisp 21:12:33 seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has joined #lisp 21:13:43 -!- francogrex [~user@91.179.194.168] has quit [Client Quit] 21:14:55 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wqemhdgecxwotbln] has joined #lisp 21:18:39 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:22:10 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 21:26:04 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-160-0-80.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 21:28:56 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-27-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:35:43 <_death> prxq: shouldn't it be two define-foreign-library forms 21:41:33 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-213-213.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:42:55 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.164.152.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:01 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:44:01 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-wqemhdgecxwotbln] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:44:44 Xach: the format control/args issue seems to be in cl-csv: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/issues/14 21:44:53 thanks for your help trying to diagnose it 21:45:01 bobbysmith0071: another one down for you ;-) 21:45:22 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 21:49:10 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.28.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:53:23 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:54:05 -!- mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:54:17 -!- ft [~ft@dyn-46.183.96.49.relaix.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-rc1] 21:55:15 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.90.180] has joined #lisp 21:56:01 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:f90a:9288:4242:a895] has joined #lisp 21:56:27 <_death> it seems slime has an annoying race condition that causes it to fail to interrupt a thread (that has already finished by that time) on startup.. swank::sentinel-stop-server has something like (when (and thread (thread-alive-p thread) ...) (kill-thread thread))... by the time kill-thread is called, thread may not be alive anymore.. I suppose an easy hack is to ignore that error 21:57:36 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC458B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 21:58:25 mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:29 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:59:15 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:08:13 -!- add^_ [~user@m5-241-186-97.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:08:14 ft [~ft@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:29 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 22:09:11 -!- seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:13:05 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 _death: not if I read the docs correctly: http://common-lisp.net/projects/cffi/manual/html_node/Tutorial_002dLoading.html#Tutorial_002dLoading 22:14:15 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6d30c.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 22:14:25 or even http://common-lisp.net/projects/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dlibrary.html 22:14:39 so there can be many load clauses (iiuc) 22:14:48 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6d30c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:16:02 -!- __class__ [~class@c-98-207-86-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:18:22 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:19:34 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Quit: jangle] 22:19:55 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 22:20:19 Isn't there a portable backquote library somewhere? Google is failing me 22:21:55 -!- pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:22:21 I think I found it: fare-quasiquote 22:22:46 -!- mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:23:21 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:23:33 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:23:58 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:48 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 22:24:59 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:f90a:9288:4242:a895] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:20 __class__ [~class@c-98-207-86-124.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:28 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 22:27:52 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.164.152.177] has joined #lisp 22:34:11 joneshf-work [~joneshf@c-98-238-144-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:17 -!- xificurC [~xificurC@pat-ip-195-91-4-241.gprs.as5628.telecom.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:51 mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:36:52 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@187.37.105.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:37:38 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 22:39:29 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-121-166.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39:55 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:2d9c:c5ba:20c8:490b] has joined #lisp 22:41:23 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:42 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:2d9c:c5ba:20c8:490b] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41:55 -!- gmcastil [~user@97-122-163-48.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:43:29 dim: hooray 22:43:44 prxq: yes but only the first one to match is supposed to be taken into account 22:43:46 hehe 22:44:02 Xach: what are we celebrating ? 22:44:37 it still feels strange ending in the debugger when handling a condition, when the logging in turn signals a condition that's not handled 22:44:55 fe[nl]ix: fruitful debug hints 22:45:21 even if somewhat indirect 22:45:31 -!- cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [] 22:45:32 the track was the good one 22:45:59 (handler-case (something-bad) (error (err) (ignore-errors (log :error err)))) 22:46:02 too much verbosity? ok, time to sleep here, happy day to you in the west ;-) 22:46:07 cpc26 [~cpc26@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 22:46:25 too much verbosity? ok, time to write a macro. 22:46:26 pjb: yeah, (log :error err) was entering the debugger 22:46:45 and I did actually want to fix why 22:46:57 rather than ignore it 22:47:09 I'll admit I didn't know CL had ignore-errors like elisp, thanks 22:47:12 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:47:20 diadara_ [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 22:47:26 Sometimes, you want to catch errors in production, but break into the debugger in development. Once again, a macro is handy here. 22:47:41 why didn't RMS evolve elisp into a CL compatible thing escapes me 22:47:59 pjb: I won't be there in production, I ship the app 22:48:05 I want the user to be able to report 22:48:50 indeed, he could have done that in the late 80's and everybody would be happy. But emacs lisp is his baby, so he didn't want to perform heavy surgery. 22:49:15 it's pretty hard to find a good excuse for that choice 22:49:33 Also, at that time, he was suffering from RSI. 22:49:40 (with RSI RMS) :-) 22:50:08 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:33 when did he actually open Emacs source code? (I mean, accepting patches and having a public repository and all) 22:50:42 From day 1. 22:50:45 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:57 no, he didn't use a public repository from day one, that was way later 22:51:05 Only there wasn't public repositories at that time. At best, there was sccs. 22:51:19 But the source was free from day 1. 22:51:30 to contribute you had to send him a patch and paperwork, right? 22:51:45 him and only him, I mean, no team 22:52:04 -!- ft [~ft@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:52:04 so well I guess elisp vs CL is RMS doing 22:52:14 ft [~ft@shell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:24 dim: to FSF later on 22:52:31 -!- mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:52:45 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsReleaseDates 22:52:54 required signed paperwork, or at least faxed 22:53:28 anyways redisplay is too slow (try M-x shell and PAGER=/bin/cat) and I'd like for Emacs to be able to display several lines next to an image, too 22:53:30 resulted in some 'fun' cases, like with a patch from someone incapable of legally signing any of that, and the fact that RMS had pretty strong control over what went into Emacs 22:53:58 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:06 (yes, you could fork, but RMS had pretty strong control over what code went into Emacs) 22:54:38 typical case of worse is better 22:54:47 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:50 (mapcar* '- '(1987 . #1=(1994 1997 2001 2007 2009 2012)) '#1#) --> (-7 -3 -4 -6 -2 -3) 22:55:26 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:57:47 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 22:58:26 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:00:07 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:10 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:f4e3:a7e1:d38d:3cd8] has joined #lisp 23:00:32 fe[nl]ix: Ah, I see. Thanks. I just wonder now how this code worked for almost a year. 23:00:44 well, who cares. 23:05:21 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:05:49 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 23:06:28 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has left #lisp 23:07:23 prxq: a bug in cffi 23:08:34 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Client Quit] 23:08:37 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: zzZZz] 23:08:56 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 23:08:56 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 23:09:36 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:12:43 pierre1_ [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 23:17:40 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:21:59 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:22:06 seangrove [~user@199.188.194.204] has joined #lisp 23:23:32 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 23:25:32 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6d30c.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:28:05 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:28:53 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:29:04 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:41 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:00 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:40 ckoch` [~ckoch@ne102611l.eng.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 23:31:56 -!- ckoch` [~ckoch@ne102611l.eng.utoledo.edu] has left #lisp 23:33:28 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.90.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:35:46 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.90.180] has joined #lisp 23:36:05 mrpat [~mrpat@pool-108-16-92-91.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:07 fmeyer [~fmeyer@179.208.163.134] has joined #lisp 23:37:26 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:41:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:41:29 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177961259.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:43:10 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:18 impulse [~impulse@65.95.107.128] has joined #lisp 23:44:43 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 23:46:16 ckoch786 [~ckoch@ne102611l.eng.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 23:47:06 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:24 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:c698:a1d0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:49:57 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:51:21 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 23:51:21 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:05 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:28 ASau` [~user@p54AFE351.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:56:42 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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