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01:20:55 *Xach* does not know, sorry 01:21:34 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@unaffiliated/cmpitg] has quit [Quit: May the force be with y'all] 01:21:57 -!- slarti [~anonymous@ip-64-134-52-90.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 01:24:43 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:26:08 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:26:08 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 01:31:52 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 01:32:59 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:38:22 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 01:39:14 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:39:49 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:40:19 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:43 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:41:12 harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has joined #lisp 01:41:44 -!- kranthi [~kranthi@122.167.70.48] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:44:38 -!- joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:45:02 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 01:45:57 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:46:31 quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-32-244-254.bla800.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 01:52:10 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 01:54:07 CrazyEddy [~screened@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:55:17 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:55:36 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:55:36 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-131-124.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:56:37 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-109-141.w83-202.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:57:32 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 02:09:53 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 02:10:26 -!- __prefect [~prefect@koln-5d81703e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:11:15 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:12:25 milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has joined #lisp 02:15:50 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 02:16:49 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:17:18 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:18:03 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:20:44 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:20:56 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:00 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:38 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 02:36:12 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.91.179] has joined #lisp 02:41:10 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:43:43 -!- CrazyEddy [~screened@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:59 CrazyEddy [~rheumatoi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:46:50 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6baf6.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:48:27 WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 02:49:10 Anyone know how to make SWIG number repeated function names? 02:49:41 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:50:24 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f69179.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:37 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:44 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 02:55:16 vkrest_ [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:51 ezakimak [~nick@72.250.219.55] has joined #lisp 02:57:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:58:37 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:b:1c3d:718d:2920:aa8b] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:00:21 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 03:00:25 -!- vkrest_ [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:03:56 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCDCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:08:26 is there a cl function that returns the number of elements in a list? 03:08:53 yates: lenght? 03:09:16 splendid! 03:09:23 length* sorry, I can't write. 03:09:32 i couldn't get "count" out of my mind. 03:09:55 Yeah, I forget half of the usefull function every time I need them. 03:12:03 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:38 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:13:43 yates, (count-if (constantly t) ) 03:13:47 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:50 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:20:35 jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:48 -!- jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:20:48 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 03:21:01 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:22:46 gmci [~gmc@rrcs-71-40-75-218.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:22:49 -!- gmci [~gmc@rrcs-71-40-75-218.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:23:45 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:23:57 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:26 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 03:25:07 hugoduncan [~user@69.157.171.126] has joined #lisp 03:25:28 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:27:01 -!- hugod [~user@69.157.171.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:28:05 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:28:24 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Client Quit] 03:29:32 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:45 in (if cond (true-stuff)(false-stuff)), can (true-stuff) be a sequence of functions, like ((format ...)(+ 3 2)...) ? 03:31:05 (as well as false-stuff. ) 03:31:19 what do you call that type of construct? 03:31:39 you mean a sequence of forms? 03:31:47 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-32-244-254.bla800.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:31:47 i think so, yeah. 03:31:51 like (if cond (progn (format ...) (+ 3 2)) ...) 03:32:24 well progn executes a sequence of forms, right 03:32:27 ? 03:32:50 do you have to use progn or can you just fill in a bunch of forms? 03:33:12 yates: AFAIK, if execute only one form. 03:33:24 So you need to group them. progn being used for that. 03:34:03 right. 03:34:05 thx 03:34:10 No problem. 03:34:16 tias, eh? 03:34:22 tias? 03:34:27 try it and see 03:34:32 Exactly. 03:35:39 When you have more than one form in a branch, it's pretty common to switch from IF to COND. 03:37:10 yeah, cond has implicit progns 03:37:30 -!- Xuehas [~Xuehas@206.75.37.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:39:21 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:17 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@222.91.106.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:01 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:43:50 KDr2 [~KDr2@222.91.106.253] has joined #lisp 03:46:30 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 03:49:42 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:49 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:53:40 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 03:54:45 -!- loke_ [~loke@203.127.16.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:56:18 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all] 03:58:29 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:59:47 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:46 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCDCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:10 loke_ [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 04:06:24 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #lisp 04:07:10 dionmarcill [~maden@98.143.212.102] has joined #lisp 04:08:14 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:40 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:10:24 vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 04:11:29 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:13:00 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.91.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:13:15 -!- dionmarcill [~maden@98.143.212.102] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:13:21 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:46 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:46 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:51 -!- WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:17:59 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:20 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:18:43 WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 04:18:55 -!- WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:47 -!- cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:22:56 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:45 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.199.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:25:47 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:03 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:30:59 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:31:40 nug700_ [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:10 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:35:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:35:37 cgore [~cgore@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:46 kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:29 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:46:44 I have a macro defined in one package, and use it in another. The symbols that are generated by the macro are inside the package the macro is defined in. How do I have that symbols generated by the macro be in eh package used by the macro? 04:47:27 ex: I have the macro defined in package utils, I'm using it in package app, symbols are utils::blah, instead of app:blah 04:49:03 Im just using the standard simple way of doing `(stuff here) inside the macro inside the utils package, they come out as (utils::stuff utils::here) when expanded/used inside app packaage 04:49:41 -!- frxx [frx@93-138-101-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:49:49 I want to the be like (stuff here) when expanded/used inside app package 04:50:04 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:50:31 frxx [frx@93-139-111-97.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:54:21 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 04:55:27 <|3b|> INTERN the symbols by hand when the macro runs, but that sort of thing is usually considered bad style (for one thing, many attempts to do that end up causing problems, for example when nesting calls, or if the symbol it uses was imported from another package) 04:56:29 nightshade427: why does it matter? 04:56:40 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 04:56:41 <|3b|> also keep in mind that the macro isn't guaranteed to be expanded immediately if used in interpreted code, so the package it interns into may have changed by the time it runs in that case 04:56:46 I'm not saying it should not matter, but the way out of the problem depends on why it matters to you in this specific case. 04:57:01 <|3b|> usually best to just import the symbols it uses from the package that defines it, or let the user specify symbols 04:57:16 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 04:57:17 -!- cgore [~cgore@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:58:29 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:59:29 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:01:15 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:01:51 When I place the macro within the app package all works, if I move it to utils package it no longer works. I guess it comes down to the macro doing `(method params) when method is defined in a package used by app package and not util package. 05:02:48 But the symbol it generates is (util::method) which isn't defined instead if (app::package) which is 05:05:02 Why does the package of the symbol named "METHOD" matter in this case? 05:07:19 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:07 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 05:08:07 App package uses package x, utils doesn't. Package x defines "method". When the macro is inside app package it generates (method) which works because app package used package x where "method" is defined. When macro is placed inside package util which doesn't include package x it generates (util::method) which isn't defined. 05:09:22 I could solve by just adding macro to package x instead of util and be done. I was just wondering if there was a way to keep it in utils package and have it work. 05:09:29 nightshade427: one solution then is for the macro to use `(x::method ...) or for utils to get METHOD from X via inheriting or importing or something. 05:09:56 Okay thought so, thanks Xach :) 05:10:12 /away zz 05:10:14 err 05:10:30 So no real way to have macro inside package x to output (app::method) where app is the package using the macro? 05:12:09 well, like, what if *package* is different at macroexpansion time than at eval time. 05:12:14 Okay I just added it to package x and moved on, was just curious if it was possible or common. Guess not. 05:12:19 There are ways, but that is more oblique than just using the correct symbol directly instead. 05:12:42 Okay cool, thanks 05:14:01 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-138-146.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:14:40 Good morning everyone! 05:17:27 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:19:09 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 05:20:06 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bok] 05:21:14 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 05:22:55 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:26:16 bjorkintosh [~bjork@107-218-174-88.lightspeed.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:40 morning beach :) 05:27:16 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 05:28:49 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:29:41 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:30:50 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 05:33:40 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 05:34:07 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:07 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:38:45 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:39:47 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:39:56 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:15 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:42:55 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:43:43 -!- nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:44:00 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:38 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 05:47:04 ggole [~ggole@58-7-49-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:50:52 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:51:24 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 05:55:09 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 05:55:23 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 05:58:55 nipra [~nipra@122.177.252.133] has joined #lisp 05:59:39 quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-32-244-254.bla800.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:00:00 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:02:25 mmaul [~user@cpe-173-095-155-102.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:35 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Quit: percopal] 06:07:09 \join #lispcafe 06:07:15 ? 06:07:32 mmaul: Use forward slash. 06:08:17 Thanks 06:08:42 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:11:41 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11:46 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 06:12:14 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:12:18 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Client Quit] 06:12:41 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 06:12:48 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:19:12 Myk267 [~myk@unaffiliated/myk267] has joined #lisp 06:19:59 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:23:29 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:27:01 -!- clop2 [~jared@99-23-195-115.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:28:26 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:32:25 Phoodus [~user@wsip-68-107-217-139.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:38 drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:50 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:11 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:27 Any postmodern users? I can't get figure out the syntax for variable function names, eg (:select (:$1)). I always get macroexpand-time errors 06:35:02 -get 06:35:08 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:36 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 06:38:45 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:43:49 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 06:48:43 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:48:58 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:51:25 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 06:55:21 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:55 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 06:56:08 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:40 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:29 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01:23 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 07:04:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:04:45 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:06:06 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:13 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 07:07:15 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:09:27 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:09:34 Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has joined #lisp 07:09:48 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.23] has joined #lisp 07:12:35 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:32 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:17:04 Phoodus: i don't think you can have that. try :raw 07:17:17 drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:33 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:17:55 Natch_q [~Natch@c-88cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:18:27 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:19:21 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-88cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:21 -!- Natch_q is now known as Natch 07:25:11 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:25:14 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:25:14 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:26:47 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 07:29:54 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 07:32:48 -!- jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jhao] 07:37:52 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 07:39:23 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 07:39:24 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:40:48 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-32-244-254.bla800.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:46:13 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Quit: i will be back...nvm] 07:48:33 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 07:56:36 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 07:57:56 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 08:01:09 -!- mmaul [~user@cpe-173-095-155-102.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:01:26 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:02:56 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:08:15 -!- Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-216-143.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: h] 08:08:32 Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-216-143.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:08 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:11:26 H4ns: :raw seems like it doesn't interoperate with variables like :$1. It wants a literal string 08:12:22 I got it working with (format nil "select ~a()" funcname) anyway. The data it accesses isn't available for injection attack. (:raw would be injection-able as well) 08:12:35 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:17 -!- Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-216-143.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:13:45 Watcher7 [~w@108.218.0.100] has joined #lisp 08:16:59 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:18:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:21:00 hi is lisp easy to learn if I know scheme? 08:21:46 zacts: it certainly depends mostly on you, but at least you're used to the basic syntax. 08:21:48 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:21:58 <|3b|> lots of things are similar, but some are pretty different 08:22:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:22:15 is common lisp more standard across implementations? 08:22:22 and does it offer more libraries than scheme? 08:23:11 <|3b|> common lisp is bigger than scheme, and the "common lisp" part is common to all implementations 08:23:31 <|3b|> there are portability libs for most of the major features outside the standard, like threads or networking 08:23:36 The CL standard doesn't include sockets, threads, etc, but there are common libraries for them. 08:24:07 I don't know how different Scheme implementations are, but the CL spec is quite demanding, and most major implementations implement it well 08:24:17 ok cool. 08:24:25 *|3b|* doesn't know scheme to compare quality or quantity of libraries, probably depends more on which is more popular in specific fields, sine neither is really big enough to just assume it will have a library for any arbitrary task :) 08:24:26 zacts yes it is a lot easier to write portable CL code than portable scheme code 08:25:46 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 08:26:07 does this channel have a wiki? 08:26:30 there's this: http://www.cliki.net/ 08:26:59 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:27:03 -!- yates [~user@nc-67-232-27-161.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 08:27:16 and this is one of the best regarded books for learning CL: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 08:27:23 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.252.133] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:28:15 cool 08:29:26 so I can write real applications with CL.. what kinds of applications does CL accel at? 08:29:34 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 08:29:35 it's general purpose 08:30:19 the upsides/downsides are generally tied to the availability of frameworks 08:30:33 for instance, GUI support isn't that hot, though there are bindings to various libraries 08:30:44 hm.. for my needs I don't need GUI stuff 08:30:47 while there are very mature webservers, etc 08:31:07 commercial common lisps have nice gui libraries 08:31:13 albeit a bit old-fashion in the looks 08:31:46 but I just hop to HTML for most of my UI needs nowadays 08:31:48 <|3b|> CL is good at flexibility, experimental programming, general purpose stuff, less good at GUIs, deploying small binaries (commercial CLs do the latter 2 though) 08:32:19 hm.. I would be interested in webserver / database / experimental programming 08:32:36 zacts: that should work well with open source lisps 08:33:28 I know that the perl Moose object framework was inspired in part by CLOS 08:34:10 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:34:25 so what are some popular lisp projects out there right now? 08:34:30 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:34:31 evenson [~user@77.119.129.120.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:00 s/lisp/CL/ 08:37:08 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:38:13 also, I use emacs. 08:38:21 oh, I've found a page on the wiki listing various projects 08:38:25 nvmd 08:39:19 oh, #clnoobs 08:40:00 nipra [~nipra@122.177.252.133] has joined #lisp 08:40:02 -!- Watcher7 [~w@108.218.0.100] has quit [Quit: h] 08:40:19 Watcher7 [~w@108.218.0.100] has joined #lisp 08:46:20 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:47:50 zacts: What kind of "popular lisp projects" are you looking for? 08:48:50 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@107-218-174-88.lightspeed.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:49:56 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-agtmidcqtycouuqg] has joined #lisp 08:54:30 Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-227-53-80.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:54:42 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.225.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:36 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 08:57:22 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 08:58:02 beach: I don't know.. actually, I guess something that I could learn from, like a webserver or something. 08:58:53 zacts: That's a pretty big program for learning. But hunchentoot is a popular webserver. 08:59:07 beach: what would you recommend for learning? 08:59:07 zacts: Otherwise, there are excellent books to learn from. 08:59:37 zacts: It depends. How much programming experience do you have? 08:59:57 zacts: If you already know how to program, the book "Practical Common Lisp" is a good choice. 09:01:14 minion: Please tell zacts about PCL! 09:01:14 zacts: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:01:38 beach: well, once I actually dive into clisp. for now I'm getting through Scheme and the Art of Programming and SICP. 09:02:11 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:02:19 zacts: Notice that "CLISP" is the name of a Common Lisp implementation. The usual abbreviation for "Common Lisp" is "CL". 09:02:31 oh, I see. 09:02:57 Axord [~axo@pool-173-55-135-64.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:05 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-agtmidcqtycouuqg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:09:15 dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:29 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:34 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:58 -!- syrinx_ [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:36 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:21:09 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 09:25:29 Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:56 harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has joined #lisp 09:28:56 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:01 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-49-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 09:29:39 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:35:33 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 09:36:32 -!- Watcher7 [~w@108.218.0.100] has quit [Quit: h] 09:36:47 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:38:31 -!- evenson [~user@77.119.129.120.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:39:50 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:21 __prefect [~prefect@koln-5d81703e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:47 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:47:32 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:17 mayuresh [~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.160.66.mtnl.net.in] has joined #lisp 09:49:32 hello :) 09:50:08 Hello mayuresh! 09:50:17 hi beach. :) 09:50:37 what is the time best suited to hang around with a lot of people out here? 09:50:43 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 09:50:52 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:50:53 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 09:50:59 mayuresh: There are people from all over the globe, so it is hard to say. 09:51:13 oh, great, that means, any time can be a good time. :) 09:51:21 Definitely! 09:51:41 i am just (re)starting on lisp. 09:51:51 <|3b|> http://ircbrowse.net/lisp <- has charts 09:51:59 the last time was 18 years back using autolisp. 09:52:09 and then there was a boat load of work using varied stuff 09:52:25 now, have exited the rat race and can spend time on self training for lisp. 09:53:08 a question; would i need to know "discrete mathematics" to start off on common-lisp in a serious manner? 09:53:18 No 09:53:22 <|3b|> no more than for any programming language 09:53:30 <|3b|> (which is probably not much) 09:53:46 great, thanks. :) 09:53:55 "none at all" works fine 09:54:19 :) 09:54:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:26 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:55:45 I'm curious as to how that question came to be 09:55:47 mayuresh: How do you plan to accomplish this "self training"? Books? Hacking on some project? 09:56:18 primarily through books, and then start fiddling with GNOWSys in Lisp 09:56:30 Shinmera: pathological fear of discrete math? 09:56:33 -!- bjz_ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 09:56:44 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 09:57:10 stassats: Heh, but that still doesn't quite explain the relation to CL. 09:57:35 better be safe 09:57:36 shimera: i am brushing up on foundational math (chrystal, heath, apostol, etc), wondered if i should add discrete math to the mix 09:57:43 stassats: fair enough 09:58:02 chrystal math? 09:58:08 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 09:58:17 mayuresh: It's useful for advanced algorithms and computational theory, but not essential by any means. 09:58:20 stassats: chrystal (algebra) 09:58:32 shinmera: thanks :) 09:59:17 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:54 vaporatorius [~vaporator@198.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined 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seconds] 12:05:26 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 12:07:19 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d819f88.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:30 -!- __prefect [~prefect@koln-5d81703e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:09:44 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:21 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 12:12:43 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:19:06 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:21:15 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:20 drl [~lat@125.167.132.81] has joined #lisp 12:24:45 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 12:27:35 ggole [~ggole@124-169-117-100.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:27:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:28:27 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:30:13 -!- wbooze [~wbooze@xdsl-78-35-134-233.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: none] 12:30:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:30:56 Hi! 12:30:58 From CLHS: 12:31:14 If make-array is called with adjustable, fill-pointer, and displaced-to each nil, then the result is a simple array. 12:31:35 But: 12:31:35 (type-of (make-array (length "123") :adjustable nil :fill-pointer nil :displaced-to nil :element-type 'unsigned-byte :initial-contents '(1 2 3))) 12:31:38 (SIMPLE-VECTOR 3) 12:31:45 why? 12:31:56 someone's confused 12:32:17 Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:17 -!- tjos [~tim@CPE-121-216-104-231.lnse2.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:32:17 *otwieracz* is 12:32:30 is simple-vector a simple-array? 12:32:46 clhs simple-vector 12:32:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ve.htm 12:32:47 hint: look at the type heirarchy ;) 12:32:58 -!- munge` is now known as munge 12:33:00 Hmm. 12:33:02 It is. 12:33:09 (typep (make-array (length "123") :adjustable nil :fill-pointer nil :displaced-to nil :element-type 'unsigned-byte :initial-contents '(1 2 3)) 'simple-array) 12:33:12 T 12:33:35 :adjustable nil :fill-pointer nil :displaced-to nil is redundant 12:34:30 But: 12:34:30 http://paste.lisp.org/display/141030 12:35:11 the error message is not lying 12:35:24 OK.. 12:35:31 'unsigned-byte is wrong. 12:35:39 '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) has to be. 12:35:45 so is :initial-contents "123" 12:35:51 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 12:36:24 (type-of (make-array (length "123") :adjustable nil :fill-pointer nil :displaced-to nil :element-type '(UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) :initial-contents '(1 2 3))) 12:36:27 (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (3)) 12:37:06 if you want to turn "123" into an ub8 array, you can do (map '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)) #'digit-char-p "123") 12:37:31 That's better 12:37:47 and as i already said, :adjustable nil :fill-pointer nil :displaced-to nil is redundant 12:37:57 Thanks! 12:40:31 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:40:55 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:42:07 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 if you want ASCII values, then #'char-code. It'll blow up on any code point >255 12:44:06 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-177-17-253.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:34 or grab a proper utf-8 library if you want to stay safe & proper 12:44:37 not sure what your use case is 12:46:13 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:58 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:04 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 12:49:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:49:28 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 12:51:44 ascii is up to 127 12:52:18 yep 12:52:48 I don't recall which code page unicode 128-255 matches up with 12:52:55 latin1 12:53:02 as suspected 12:53:11 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 12:53:24 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:30 and it's 0-255 12:53:32 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 12:53:56 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:30 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 12:56:24 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:56:41 right, which also matches ASCII at 0-127 12:56:54 hence being unsure about the 128-255 region 12:58:23 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:29 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:00:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00:21 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 13:00:56 francogrex [~user@91.182.165.101] has joined #lisp 13:01:03 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:01:46 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 Whi defconstatnts warns for being redefined while loading system with quickload? 13:02:50 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04:10 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:05:06 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:53 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:59 -!- milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:07:14 because things are not EQL 13:09:11 milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 13:12:08 it's weird how additional keyboard layouts affect mcclim listeners behaviour on outputting ~ 13:12:37 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:41 if i have only german/us german as primary, i can use AltGr+^ to print a literal ~ there.... 13:13:03 otherwise when i add a third layout it gets screwed.... 13:13:17 pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has joined #lisp 13:13:23 it's like expecting us for the dvorak keys or so.... 13:13:34 as the last of the layouts maybe ? 13:13:48 i don't know.... 13:13:50 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Client Quit] 13:15:48 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCF96.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:39 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:18:47 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:43 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 13:21:45 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:24:27 nipra [~nipra@122.177.226.121] has joined #lisp 13:28:25 Hmm 13:28:42 Can I somehow define struct with field of type "string" 13:29:08 But where I will be able to set argument to nil? 13:29:17 Something like optional field 13:30:08 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:30:16 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 13:30:55 a nil string ? 13:30:56 wth 13:31:04 otwieracz: (or null string) 13:31:05 that's supposed to mean "" 13:31:24 :) 13:31:28 Thanks 13:34:29 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:35:08 Poenikatu [~kvirc@host-89-241-78-128.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:08 -!- Poenikatu [~kvirc@host-89-241-78-128.as13285.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:35:08 Poenikatu [~kvirc@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 13:40:22 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:01 -!- francogrex [~user@91.182.165.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:46:15 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 13:48:17 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:50 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:54:48 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:56:37 bjorkintosh [~bjork@107-218-174-88.lightspeed.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:13 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 13:59:32 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:01:10 LiamH [~none@96.231.217.60] has joined #lisp 14:01:10 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 14:02:49 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-61-223.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 14:05:00 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:05:59 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:07:45 yates [~user@nc-67-232-27-161.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:14 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:08:19 "(format t "~S" " +")" give me " +" (with the double quotes. how do i get it without thedouble quotes? 14:08:28 ~a 14:08:37 aha. 14:08:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:30 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 14:12:37 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:56 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-177-17-253.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:14:11 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:14:53 i have a function that formats stuff correctly, but the standard cl return policy also puts a bunch of stuff (nils) after the nicely-formatted output. how do i suppress the nils? 14:14:54 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:13 you are confused 14:15:21 yates: it is your repl that prints the nil 14:15:59 i'm using slime/sbcl 14:16:04 yates: yes. 14:16:21 yates: your repl prints the return value of the expression that you enter. this is how it is supposed to be. 14:17:27 so it is normal for "format"ed stuff to have nils or other repl-printed return values after it? 14:17:30 when your program runs, only your format t output will show 14:17:43 when whatever you call returns, then return values will be printed 14:17:44 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:17:49 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:17:51 yates: it is normal that no matter what your expression does, the value it returns is printed by the repl. 14:18:08 Phoodus: not, that's not true. 14:18:10 values, even 14:18:27 Phoodus: ok, sorry - i misinterpreted you 14:18:29 there is a way 14:18:41 (progn (format t "~a" "+") (loop)) 14:18:51 stassats: ha 14:19:04 might also want a (finish-output) in there, just in case 14:19:22 i'm just trying to clean it up so that the only thing you get when you run it is the formatted output 14:19:37 (values) will return nothing. Though I notice my slime will still say " ; No value " 14:19:56 Why not return a string with the formatted result? 14:20:09 Is the point to print stuff and continue processing, or to inform an interactive user of a result? 14:20:12 Phoodus: yes, that would be right 14:20:19 Phoodus: the latter 14:20:23 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:35 the whole point of the function is to present info to the user 14:20:49 Returning NIL or T or no values is a normal thing to do in that case. 14:20:51 so just format nil instead of format t 14:20:58 oh! 14:21:28 People using a raw Common Lisp REPL will not generally be thrown off by the return values, and people who are thrown off should probably be offered a different kind of interface for interacting with a program. 14:21:58 It would be pretty trivial to take the P out of REPL and just display side-effects instead of return values. 14:22:07 or, if you want to get real fancy, return a structure and define a PRINT-OBJECT method to format it nicely 14:22:14 Xach: right. that is sort of what i meant 14:22:18 rather, i was asking. 14:22:40 so just live with it. 14:22:45 If people can handle it? Or how to make a new interactive loop? 14:22:48 People can handle it 14:22:58 Xach: former 14:23:17 i wouldn't be able to handle the lack of return values 14:23:36 yates: no lisp programmer will be surprised if your function returns nil. 14:23:39 ok, i'll just live with it... 14:23:47 yates: if there is nothing better that you can return, nil is safe 14:23:55 If what you're doing is returning multiple values, and you only want the first to be displayed, just use (values (foo....)) to trim it down to 1 14:24:09 yates: calling (values) is pretty pointless in my book, but some people like it. 14:24:43 H4ns: yeah, i was thinking of that, cause now it's return a bunch of lists/sublists with NIL - just a simple NIL would be prettier 14:24:58 ((NIL NIL) (NIL NIL) NIL) 14:25:13 yeah, I've been bitten by that. Returning multi-million entry lists because the last thing a function did was mapc :-P 14:25:25 That reminds me of how ASDF would return a thousand-element list in certain situations 14:25:27 yates: the general rule is: if your function can return something that a caller might deem useful, return that. otherwise return nil. don't return internal state that should not be exposed. 14:25:31 takes forever for it to render, if the render doesn't end up blowing the heap 14:25:45 Phoodus: mapc for side-effect? 14:26:06 ok, thanks everyone 14:26:09 Xach: yeah 14:26:16 (defstruct (x (:print-function (lambda (&rest args) args)))) (make-x) => nothing 14:26:16 14:26:19 zajn_ [~zajn@pool-71-189-154-86.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:19 I always use (map nil ...) for that, but this year I saw new code from longtime lispers using mapc instead. 14:26:27 yeah, i'm using mapcar 14:27:03 calling (values) is usually less efficient because implementations are optimized for returning a single value 14:27:29 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:28:01 Xach: I almost never end up using arrays, so I tend to keep in the conses chapter of the spec 14:28:07 Xach: mapc expects a list, so, it may be more efficient without any declarations 14:30:29 protip: if you work with functions which return large lists, or large arrays, you can set up (setf *print-length* 100 *print-level* 3 *print-array* nil) 14:30:43 doesn't work with strings 14:31:05 values can be very efficient for a small, fixed number of return values 14:31:18 no 14:31:31 they are almost never more efficient than a single value 14:32:45 -!- MoALTz [~no@host81-153-176-30.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:32:56 I seem to remember they are just left in registers 14:34:15 in sbcl x86-64, 3 return value slots are held in registers. Unused ones are set to NIL before returning. So there is a bit of fixed overhead. 14:34:55 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:02 not exactly 14:35:24 if >1 values are returned, the unused ones are set to nil 14:35:33 if it's a single-value return, then it doesn't bother 14:36:01 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 14:36:09 then again, my knowledge comes from disassembly, not looking at the assembler itself 14:36:11 A3mr [~other@188.162.65.49] has joined #lisp 14:36:13 hi 14:36:24 hi 14:36:32 iirc there was some reader macro for path in cl, which one was that? 14:36:36 I suppose that the zero-value case could be slow for some reason. 14:36:47 file path that is 14:36:57 on x86, the carry flag is used to indicate that the function returns something other than a single value, when it's /= 1, then RCX is used to indicate the number of registers, up to three values are passed on registers, if it's 2 or 0 values, remaining registers are set to NIL 14:37:36 yep, so zero is more expensive than just returning NIL 14:37:41 ...zero values ... 14:38:03 the most efficient is returning some constant you already have, since NIL has to be shoved into a register 14:38:05 So (values) => set four registers and CF? Hmm, that is more work than I expected. 14:38:08 it doesn't affect a caller which just expects a single value, though 14:38:16 Right. 14:38:37 it does affect the caller 14:39:20 the caller just grabs the first return register, not caring about carry flag or the count 14:39:52 Having the callee nil the register means that the caller can just use it without any kind of inspection, right? 14:39:59 that is not true, the stack has to be fixed up if there are return values on the stack 14:40:04 ah, i guess i'm wrong 14:40:45 no, it's #p"/foo/bar" 14:40:47 Hmm. 14:40:51 nialo [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:40 -!- zajn_ [~zajn@pool-71-189-154-86.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:41:40 stassats: hmm, does that happen after every call unless speed/safety cranks it away? I don't recall seeing caller post-call fixup tests 14:41:42 why is this giving me "STYLE-WARNING: The variable POLY2 is defined but never used"? http://ur1.ca/ghyx2 -> http://paste.fedoraproject.org/71569/66082813 14:42:08 Phoodus: in all cases where there is an unknown number of return values 14:42:15 yates: because you never use the variable binding of POLY2 14:42:35 yates: '(poly1 poly2 poly3) is a list of 3 symbols, not a list of values behind those variables 14:42:39 Phoodus: but it's cheap, CMOVB RSP, RBX is all that's needed 14:43:04 ok, it's just a restore, makes sense 14:43:14 and if the stack's not used otherwise, it just shuffles off to the epilogue 14:44:51 for all the functions SBCL provides, the return values are known and fixed, so you won't see any fixups there 14:45:28 ok i'm lost. 14:45:36 yates: lexical variables do not work like that 14:45:41 my disassembly macro also sets (speed 3) (safety 0), etc, so I probably see it elided in most cases 14:45:56 yates: '(a b c) vs (list a b c) 14:46:01 User functions don't get that? I guess it would require recompilation if the assumption was violated by changing the function definition. 14:46:35 #+sbcl (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t) adds some of that back in 14:46:36 the purpose of (safety 0) is not to butcher your stack but to disregard wrong things you provide, unknown return values cannot be elided 14:48:03 (the (values t &optional) (f)) coupled with safety 0 will remove CMOVB RSP, RBX, but not just (safety 0) 14:48:27 yeah, I see the cmovb now in certain literal cases where I force it 14:48:54 segv- [~mb@95-91-241-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:32 just (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t) will work too, at the cost of having to recompile things yourself 14:49:46 Phoodus: thank you! 14:50:12 yates: you understand the difference now? or just copy/pasted a solution? 14:50:49 i think i get it 14:51:37 '(a b c) is a list of a b c as symbols, (list a b c) creates a list of the varaiables a b and c. it has to do with the operation of list versus ' 14:51:41 stassats: I do find it interesting that the instruction renders as CMOVB instead of CMOVC, as the latter reflects better what's going on if there's no context 14:51:56 right 14:52:08 and by variables, you mean the value of the variables, of course ;) 14:52:34 the value of the symbols? 14:52:38 `(,a ,b ,c) works as well, but it more syntax and more expensive 14:52:52 it's not expensive, really 14:52:57 , is sorta like "unquote"? 14:53:05 just more typing 14:53:09 yes. Notice the back-quote instead of regular quote 14:53:22 used often in buliding source code lists inside macros 15:00:33 add^_ [~user@m5-241-186-97.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:01:54 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 15:02:25 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:04:22 keen_ [~blackened@pdf879bb6.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:11:27 ` shouldn't be used for arbitrary lists (that may have destructive functions run on them), though 15:12:04 Since it might return "constant" list structure 15:12:34 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:58 MoALTz [~no@host86-137-42-132.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:16:35 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-109-128.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:36 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-109-128.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 15:17:13 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:19:14 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-109-128.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:52 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:24:22 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:47 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 15:25:15 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:06 Phoodus: now i'm having doubts 15:26:22 Alfr [~Unknown@g225152020.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:26:25 (setq var1 '(a b c)) 15:26:33 (setq var2 (list a b c)) 15:26:51 what will the difference between (car var1) and (car var2) be? 15:27:03 drmeister: com.informatimago.pjb::*logical-hosts*, Value: ("NORVIG" "LOADERS" "HOME" "DEFSYSTEM" "CCLAN" "CLOCC" "PACKAGES" "UFFI" "CL-PDF" "CMU-AI" "PJB-LISP" "PJB-COMM" "SHARE-LISP") / com.informatimago.pjb::post-process-logical-host-translations, Def: function ;- 15:27:07 ) 15:27:25 yates: the symbol a, and the value of the binding of a, respectively. 15:28:01 ggole: ok, so the binding is from the same symbol a? 15:28:05 drmeister: for a lot of interactive introspection stuff, you have to be pro-active, and pre-define the book-keeping features. Of course, as an implementer, you can do that for the user. 15:28:48 are there two different symbols or just one is, i guess, my question 15:28:56 zajn_ [~zajn@pool-71-189-154-86.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:00 pjb: Did you mean to address that to me? I'm not sure what the context is. 15:29:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 15:29:19 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:29:23 There's one symbol: whether it is used to look up the value or not depends on whether a is special or lexically bound 15:29:35 yates: you will not have a, b, c symbols in the second list. You will have the values of those symbols. 15:29:42 drmeister: constext: <15:33:12> Is there a function to get all hostnames that can be passed to logical-pathname-translations? 15:29:42 15:29:50 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 foreignFunction: where's your interface? ha! 15:30:19 foreignFunction: that makes more sense 15:30:30 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-109-128.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:30:36 -!- nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:30:53 pjb: Got it - thanks. 15:30:54 lets say a is 5 15:31:15 drmeister: you know my ibcl too, don't you? 15:31:23 (eval (car var)) would result in 5 15:31:24 ? 15:31:40 (eval (car var1)) would result in 5 15:31:43 drmeister: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 15:31:51 pjb: But I take it for hostnames there is no standard CL way of accessing them is there? 15:32:13 yates: you don't have to ask us, you have a repl 15:32:22 ggole: true dat. 15:32:25 pjb: I'm not familiar with it - sorry. I've only been doing Common Lisp for about 2 years and most of that time has been spent learning about low-level implementation details. 15:32:31 yates: or (symbol-value (car var1)), yes. 15:32:54 yates: eval has no access to lexical variables 15:32:59 drmeister: yes, there's nothing for logical hosts. And even for the rest, it's rather limited. 15:33:04 But there is a subtle point: evaluating a symbol a and evaluating (symbol-value 'a) will not necessarily give the same answer 15:33:12 That's why the help of an implementation would be welcome. 15:33:13 Because lexically bound variables don't go through symbols. 15:33:29 drmeister: and if we could equally introspect C++ libraries it would be super great. 15:34:28 pjb: We can deeply introspect C++ source code now - that part I'm really proud of. 15:34:57 what other types of bindings are there other than lexical? 15:35:05 special, constant 15:35:16 symbol macros 15:35:29 kliph [~user@24-183-96-81.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:35:31 -!- kliph [~user@24-183-96-81.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:35:31 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:35:44 symbol macro bindings are lexical. 15:36:00 yates, you get the difference when the SETQs are evalutated. In '(a b c) the result will be equivalent to (a . (b . (c . nil))); and for (list a b c) you get (value-of-a . (value-of-b .(value-of-c . nil))), whatever those values currently are. Then you bind var1 (and respectively var2) to these results. 15:36:31 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:36:52 setq not really binds, it modifies the current binding 15:38:06 stassats, yeah ... but how should one call it at the repel-level with no previous binding in place?... 15:38:06 pjb: not really 15:38:17 Alfr: "wrong" 15:38:44 Some implementations will error if you do that. 15:38:49 Alfr: it is not specified what occurs if you do that. 15:39:11 Notably, some implementation establish a lexical binding, and some a dynamic binding. 15:39:11 Of course, if you know what repl you are typing into... 15:39:25 stassats, so what about (defvar *a*) (setf *a* 'foo)? 15:39:36 This is conforming. 15:39:45 Given *a* was not bound previously? 15:40:05 but it's still a binding, just its state is unbound 15:40:21 Confusing terminology, really. 15:41:07 We use 'variable' to make it clearer, but essentially, a variable is a binding. 15:41:19 it is still a variable, just its state is unbound. 15:42:16 stassats, okay then one'd call it assignment. Guess I have a twisted (personal) definition for bound, in that one can get a value associated to that symbol without erroring out. 15:42:43 This is correct. 15:43:16 That seems reasonable as long as you keep in mind that it is not the definition implied by things like boundp. 15:43:51 (Which will indicate whether there is a value there, not whether there is a variable there.) 15:43:51 you could consider it as having a place to store a value 15:44:02 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:44:09 (though 'place' is a specifically defined term, too) 15:44:20 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:29 a new binding means a new place to put any value for that variable into 15:45:47 vs setting a new value into the current place 15:46:44 you can also bind special variables to unbound values 15:47:32 -!- jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jhao] 15:47:33 (defvar *x* 10), (progv '(*x*) () (boundp '*x*)) => NIL 15:49:08 if there were no multiple threads, you could say that it unbinds it, but with threads, that would clearly be incorrect 15:49:31 so, threads is what complicate terminology a bit 15:49:37 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:14 in a single threaded program you could emulate binding special variables as (let ((old-value (symbol-value 'x))) (unwind-protect (progn (setf (symbol-value 'x) 'new-value)) (setf (symbol-value 'x) old-value))) 15:52:46 but that would break apart on a mulithreaded system, that's why binding and setting are distinct operations 15:54:43 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:55:42 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:02 loke_erc [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:f5cb:e14d:f981:2aec] has joined #lisp 15:57:19 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:59:39 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:21 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:40 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 16:02:52 right, and even when you push the old value somewhere else, that means you moved the current "place" elsewhere, and the central "place" is a new "place" to hold values, hence a new binding 16:04:04 new binding == malloc()? 16:04:09 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.62.234] has joined #lisp 16:04:38 no 16:05:49 it could be on the stack, it could be anywhere, it could be just conceptual 16:06:06 but if it was bound before, if you make a new binding, that old binding will return once the scope of that new binding leaves 16:06:32 by whatever most-efficient means the environment comes up with 16:06:34 and bindings are thread-local, except the initial global one 16:08:01 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:09:22 The spec really talks about threads? I have missed that part. :/ Can someone point me to the appropriate section? 16:09:33 it doesn't 16:09:52 but it's the only sane way to implement them 16:10:28 because the binding exists within the calling scope that made it. That by its nature is bound to a particular thread's chain of execution 16:12:31 In the end, it still boils down to check the docs of the implementation. 16:13:30 not really 16:14:10 stassats, can you elaborate on why the unwind-protect in the special variable binding example would be needed? 16:14:29 so that they are restored on a non local exit 16:15:00 special bindings are either thread-local or the implementation is utterly broken and should be ignored 16:15:13 -!- loke_erc [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:f5cb:e14d:f981:2aec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:58 stassats, but could be CL still. (Not that it's likely to encounter one, given what you claim.) 16:19:05 it wouldn't be cl, cl doesn't allow for bindings to be changed at random points 16:19:45 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.232.23] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:20:14 stassats, you mean non-local exit while trying to assign to the symbols value-place? 16:20:17 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:40 no, non local exit when using it 16:21:25 stassats, okay then what shall exit the setf? 16:21:48 i don't understand the question 16:21:54 you might be confused 16:22:19 If the progression of thread A could change the value of a binding in thread B, it would be chaos. 16:22:32 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22:46 Alfr: think raised conditions, thrown values, return-from, etc 16:25:29 Phoodus, but then setf never gets an value to assign to the vaule-slot of the special var ... or am I still missing something. 16:26:16 as i said, not when setting, when using it 16:26:55 enter binding scope, setf or whatever, with it, then *BAM*, doesn't reach the "clean" end of the scope to exit the binding. Hence unwind-protect 16:27:27 how can i distinguish whether a parameter is a scalar or a sequence? 16:27:52 yates: maybe atom? 16:27:59 clhs sequencep 16:27:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for sequencep. 16:28:01 clhs sequence 16:28:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_seq.htm 16:28:07 depends on what you mean by scalar 16:28:10 (typep x 'sequence) 16:28:20 Phoodus, so really in the prosess of changing the binding of the symbol ... That makes it clear. :) 16:28:23 atom returns t for arrays 16:28:41 Alfr: there's enter scope, and exit scope. If you enter, you need to GUARANTEE that you perform the exit operations 16:28:51 Alfr: no! how many times should i say, when using the binding 16:29:07 Phoodus: yep. that does the trick. 16:29:18 Alfr: (block nil (let ((old-value (symbol-value 'x))) (unwind-protect (progn (setf (symbol-value 'x) 'new-value) (return 10)) (setf (symbol-value 'x) old-value)))) 16:29:26 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:27 yates: sequencep is likely better, depending on your needs 16:29:27 without up, your variable is screwed 16:29:31 erm, typep 16:29:33 Phoodus: in my case, it will be either a number or a list 16:29:50 there's also consp, and listp 16:30:03 sequencep is not defined in common lisp. 16:30:13 yates: usually you use the most specialised test available 16:30:20 So numberp or listp 16:30:27 ok, right - thx 16:30:40 sequences include lists, arrays, strings, etc 16:30:50 sequences do not include arrays, only vectors 16:30:56 oh, right 16:30:59 stassats, ``in a single threaded program you could emulate binding special variables as'' or in the following code, where you do mention or refer to using it? 16:31:03 *Phoodus* really should get to bed 16:31:30 and strings are vectors, too 16:31:33 lisberoia [~lisberoia@121.36.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:31:39 But it is trivial: (defun sequencep (x) (typep x 'sequence)) 16:32:00 Notice that in scheme (r5rs at least), types are defined in terms of predicates. This is not without difficulties. 16:32:01 so, sequences include lists, vectors, and whatever your implementation decides to add 16:32:25 pjb: it'd also be "sequence?", which I kind of prefer to -p suffixes 16:32:37 #scheme is that way 16:32:55 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 16:33:46 found another bug in mcclim.... 16:34:00 Tell me! 16:34:17 printing sequences of the same length do not print the same way when spaces are involved.... 16:34:24 tho they should... 16:34:25 yes 16:34:30 grep -R 'bug' mcclin/ 16:34:36 i have a maze-game here, tilt-maze.lisp or so.... 16:34:53 tried to get the maze printed in raw form.... 16:35:03 via (play-maze 0) 16:35:16 .... 16:35:32 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 16:35:48 when you load it and try (format t "~s" (second (car (nth 0 *mazes*)))) 16:36:01 and s/second/first too... 16:36:04 you'll see.... 16:36:34 in the listener the output length of both is not the same tho both report length of 11 16:36:50 i think clim removes some spaces in some hook... 16:36:57 dunno where tho... 16:37:06 of only there was a dedicated resource for reporting mcclim bugs, where you can paste code and don't write things line by line 16:37:15 sounds like it really spaced out 16:37:26 *Phoodus* REALLY should go to bed 16:38:17 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:54 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 16:39:58 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 16:40:13 i suppose some untabify thing is leaking out.... 16:40:16 lol 16:40:26 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:40:27 -!- CrazyEddy [~rheumatoi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:40:45 stassats: He can submit a GitHub issue. 16:41:13 beach: maybe github can't handle all the ellipses 16:41:33 Yes, it would have to be a bit more, er, structured. 16:43:07 i can present you a bug report from the past 16:44:00 I am not really looking for bug reports at this point, but sure, go ahead and submit it! It will give me some practice with GitHub issues. 16:45:27 know what, there's already a bug tracker https://bugs.launchpad.net/mcclim 16:46:02 I guess I should have remembered that. 16:46:48 there's even a patch: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mcclim/+bug/608280 16:47:38 and another one i had in mind: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mcclim/+bug/548662 16:48:19 Great! Thanks for pointing that out. 16:48:24 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:48:40 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:49:20 *stassats* passes over the thanks to past self 16:51:13 hi! 16:51:28 (today is bloquing queue vs explicit condition variables day) 16:51:56 stassats: cl-webdav is now propagated to weitz.de automatically, too. thanks for pointing it out. 16:52:11 oh and ccl wins over sbcl day, too, it seems 16:53:07 tomorrow will be sbcl-strikes-back day 16:53:17 like the same test runs in 4.2s in sbcl and 2.8s in ccl, and shows "447,106,992 bytes consed" in sbcl vs "5,390,048 bytes of memory allocated." in ccl 16:53:39 400MB vs 5MB, for the same test using the same code, really? 16:54:03 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:54:19 yeah, that sounds like a "sbcl strikes back" opportunity 16:54:49 too bad you don't have a test case 16:54:59 or more appropriately, a "test becomes more fair" opportunity 16:55:00 now i have to optimize SBCL all around! 16:55:31 Phoodus: Shouldn't you go to bed? 16:56:12 dim: does ccl report consing for a single thread? because sbcl reports for all threads 16:56:16 yes, but I want to finish documenting some ideas before they vanish overnight 16:56:17 stassats: well, fetch pgloader and run the test: (time 16:56:17 (pgloader:run-commands "/Users/dim/dev/pgloader/test/sakila.load" 16:56:17 :client-min-messages :warning)) 16:56:26 it needs a PostgreSQL and a MySQL instance available 16:56:39 and there's a test/Makefile with all you need to setup the test: 16:56:47 make -C test sakila.out 16:57:15 stassats: not measuring the same thing is my obvious candidate yes, and single thread vs all what happens is a good idea 16:57:58 but I first will try removing the explicit condition variable coding I hacker together last night in favor of using a very simple bloquing queue API (lparallel), I think 16:58:44 is bloquing a typo? i'm not familiar with the term and google isn't helping. 16:59:15 confirmed, ccl reports consing for the current thread only 16:59:19 I've removed much memory needs in pgloader, reworked the architecture, now the reader is filling up a batch (vector of PostgreSQL COPY TEXT simple-strings) and passes the vector to the writer when it's ready, swapping (rotatef) it with the next buffer to fill in 16:59:31 that was a good way to send one on a wild goose chase 16:59:32 Xach: oh. sorry. french kicking again, blocking 17:00:21 stassats: and indeed the main thread isn't doing much anyways, so that's way unfair as comparing goes, and explains nicely 17:03:23 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 17:06:38 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 17:08:24 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:09:29 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:10 -!- drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:11:11 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 17:13:58 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #lisp 17:13:58 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 17:13:58 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:20:56 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:57 is there a way using clhs/emacs to search for a term in the hyperspec? 17:21:36 yes 17:21:55 define your own key combo, attach it to the command clhs or so.... 17:22:02 when you have clhs.el loaded i.e.... 17:22:37 there is no command clhs in clhs 17:22:55 the main one seems to be common-lisp-hyperspec 17:23:11 *dim* is using dpans which offers the HyperSpec as an info manual 17:23:27 but that doesn't search - it expects a valid term (i think( 17:24:01 slime has a command for it 17:24:13 info includes a search facility with auto-completion 17:24:16 it's good enough for me 17:24:26 You need to configure a variable to tell it where the hyperspec is located first, though. 17:25:22 ggole: what is the command to search in slime? 17:25:35 nyef [~nyef@pool-64-222-145-64.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:37 there is none 17:25:54 stassats <==> ggole 17:26:14 "is", "is not", "is", "is not", ... 17:27:47 yates: it's not my fault ggole is misinforming you 17:28:30 slime-hyperspec-lookup 17:28:36 ggole: perhaps you are referring to the clhs package, which provides a lookup of valid symbols 17:29:51 *ggole* suspects he has a different version of slime to stassats 17:30:14 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@107-218-174-88.lightspeed.fyvlar.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:30:38 ggole: slime-hyperspec-lookup doesn't do what yates is asking 17:30:41 ggole: thanks, but that only looks up valid symbols, right? 17:31:05 i'm looking for a search 17:31:24 Oh, I see. Sorry, I misunderstood you. 17:31:24 i could just go here: http://www.lispworks.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi 17:31:28 np. 17:32:07 a) learn clhs by heart, no searching needed b) use google c) ask in #lisp 17:32:16 You could construct a search url programmatically and browse to that. 17:32:56 even that link isn't a search - it finds "duplicate" but not "duplicat" 17:33:01 or "duplicat*" 17:33:45 how do i make a list consisting of N duplicate of an atom? 17:33:46 Is that when you have two identical felines? 17:33:54 nyef: lol! 17:33:58 Something like https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alispworks.com+duplicat might suffice 17:34:05 yates: that's not a good term to search for 17:34:13 (make-list 1000 :initial-element #\a) 17:34:23 aha. 17:34:27 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 17:34:29 the old "make-list" command. 17:34:32 thanks stassats 17:34:41 there's no duplicating going, it's the same old #\a 17:35:49 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:36:26 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:36 liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbc34bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:57 another way (loop repeat 1000 collect #\a) 17:38:32 (fill (make-list 1000) #\a), (map-into (make-list 1000) (constantly #\a)) 17:39:28 tricky way: (subseq '#1=(#\a . #1#) 0 100), may fail to work 17:39:43 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41:05 What, no make-sequence? 17:41:26 too easy 17:41:30 Personally I would type cons one thousand times. 17:42:08 Or maybe cons 999 times and list once. 17:42:20 (coerce #1000(#\a) 'list) 17:42:25 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-173-36-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:44 this, apparently, is the shortest way 17:42:53 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-173-36-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:42:55 (let ((i 1000)) #1=(unless (zerop (decf i)) (cons #\a #1#))) is cute, but almost certainly wouldn't work. 17:43:26 stassats: what does the syntax "#\a" mean? 17:43:27 Might work with an interpreter, at least. 17:43:36 clhs #\ 17:43:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dha.htm 17:43:47 doesn't "#" denote "the function part of what's following"? 17:43:54 it does not 17:43:56 No, that's #' 17:44:01 clhs #' 17:44:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm 17:44:33 yates: #\a means the character a 17:44:56 *beach* thinks #lisp participants are unusually patient today. 17:44:58 like #\T means the character T or #\Space means a literal space.... 17:45:13 i see. 17:45:23 literal space as opposed to what kind of space? 17:46:10 Unicode has us spoiled for choice these days. 17:46:13 intersideral space. 17:46:29 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d819f88.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:46:59 ... between-star space? 17:47:11 * * 17:47:38 many people have space between their earmuffs 17:48:00 "Is it really white space if your terminal has a black background?" 17:48:48 Heh. 17:49:18 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:50:07 Xach: that's true, especially in the summer 17:50:35 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 17:51:14 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:52:34 another way is: (coerce(format()"~1000@{a~}"1)'list) 17:52:59 -!- zajn_ [~zajn@pool-71-189-154-86.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:59 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:10 "there is more than one way to do it" 17:55:24 Thank you, Mr. Wall. 17:56:59 CrazyEddy [~gain@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:58:07 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:59:17 zophy [venom@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:30 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-177-17-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:40 nyef: Re black background, you joke but I saw actual confusion about this once: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/166386/banner-x2665-your-job/166408#166408 18:01:53 Heh. 18:02:05 I like the bit about the "emoji" characters. (-: 18:02:26 *kpreid* bows. 18:02:50 -!- KDr2 [~KDr2@222.91.106.253] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:03:34 kpreid: there's an emoji for that:  18:03:49 -!- liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4dbc34bc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:03:55 I was just checking... But that's the wrong kind of bow, at least in this font... 18:04:07 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 (char-name #\) => "PERSON_BOWING_DEEPLY" 18:04:17 It's a box with six hex digits in it in this font. 18:06:25 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:52 There's a love hotel emoji. 18:07:30 M-x insert-char RET PERSON BOWING DEEPLY RET 18:08:59 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:10:21 crixxus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 orz 18:10:45 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-177-17-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:13 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-154-86.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:26 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:14:22 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:32 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #lisp 18:16:13 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-169-117-100.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 18:18:42 KDr2 [~KDr2@222.90.163.108] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 18:24:25 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 18:33:32 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:57 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:29 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:36:50 -!- crixxus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:39:01 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:41:19 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:25 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:50:25 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:54:00 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:55:25 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:55:34 kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:46 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:55:46 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:55:56 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 18:58:28 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 18:59:16 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:18 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-138-146.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:59:35 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:58 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 -!- araujo is now known as Guest54845 18:59:58 -!- Guest54845 [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 18:59:58 Guest54845 [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:59:58 why does "(concatenate (list 3))" give "bad thing to be a type specifier" error? 19:00:23 -!- Guest54845 [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:00:47 (concatenate 'list (list 3)) 19:00:47 (concatenate 'list (list 3)) => (3) 19:01:04 (append (list 3) (list 4)) 19:01:17 why do you have to do that? (list 3) is a list, right? 19:01:30 c.f. (concatenate 'vector (list 3)) 19:02:19 oh oh! missing a parameter. 19:02:20 sorry. 19:03:14 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:d539:7236:457f:9e54] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:03:18 rtfm 19:03:24 argument, rather! 19:04:16 lisp calls what C calls parameters arguments? 19:04:46 ((lambda (a) a) 1) a is a parameter, 1 is an argument 19:04:54 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 19:09:47 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:10:50 stassats: gotcha. 19:12:15 zajn_ [~zajn@pool-71-177-17-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:26 it's the same in C, i reckon 19:14:27 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-154-86.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:16:12 -!- zajn_ is now known as zajn 19:16:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16:29 araujo_ [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #lisp 19:17:09 -!- araujo_ [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19:04 araujo_ [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #lisp 19:19:06 -!- araujo_ [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:53 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-177-17-222.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:23:02 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:27:19 Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined #lisp 19:27:50 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:31:52 zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:04 -!- zajn [~zajn@pool-71-189-107-163.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:26 I wonder if it's possible to emulate the semantics of Oleg's "delimited dynamic bindings" in Common Lisp? He implements them using continuations but I imagine there being a real performance penalty for redefining defvar using functions from cl-cont (if it's even possible) 19:37:34 is there a cl function that will remove NILs from a list? 19:37:59 (remove-if-not #'identity list) 19:38:05 (remove nil list) 19:38:31 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:40:36 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:48 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.62.234] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:45:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:46:29 -!- sorabji5252 [~user@ratio.devvz.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:49 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:23 InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has joined #lisp 19:56:15 zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@chello080108120049.7.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:56:28 -!- zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@chello080108120049.7.11.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Changing host] 19:56:28 zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@fsf/member/zeroSignal] has joined #lisp 19:56:30 isn't nil a vital property ? 19:58:06 if an entity isn't at least nil then what is it ? 19:58:38 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 19:58:45 your messages clearly can be substitute with NIL 19:58:46 d 19:58:49 i percieve that it is nil 19:59:37 could lisp function without nil ? 19:59:56 go away 20:01:26 http://picpaste.com/pics/bug-YLCZwDDO.1390680061.png 20:03:27 rather http://picpaste.com/pics/bug-H1SDT8Yn.1390680178.png 20:04:34 does it have tabs? 20:05:24 Non-fixed width font, oleo? 20:05:33 ttf 20:05:39 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 20:05:49 dejavu-sans 20:06:37 oleo, try some monospace font, if you want the outputs to line up. 20:07:13 wth, it's the same font for both outputs.... 20:07:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-196.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:08:06 oleo, but the space character seems to be not as width as `#'. 20:08:28 *wide 20:09:18 (defparameter *default-font-family-name* "-misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--20-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1") 20:09:28 it's even fixed....i thought i changed that.... 20:09:43 that doesn't look like misc fixed 20:10:13 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:11:05 drewc [~drewc@S0106c8d71945c789.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:34 <|3b|> input and output look like different fonts 20:13:44 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 20:13:47 <|3b|> though might just be bold 20:15:02 <|3b|> E and T look a bit different, so not sure 20:15:46 yes input and output are maybe different size even, but outputs for both should be same 20:16:17 don't think that it's a font issue alone if it is a font issue i mean..... 20:16:37 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:a09c:4aea:5b6a:689a] has joined #lisp 20:18:12 oleo, actually what's your issue with the output? Until now we only got two pretty screens ... 20:18:27 don't you see it ? 20:19:01 35 chars wide but both outputs width differ optically.... 20:19:11 that's the annoying part... 20:19:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19:39 alignment of my tilt-maze gets annoying because of it too.... 20:19:50 and i can imagine it getting annoying at other occasions too 20:20:10 and it shouldn't be a font issue.... 20:21:26 oleo, that's because you're not using a fixed width font. E.g. you can observe that at the start of each prompt, that the `I' is narrower than `M'. 20:21:28 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:22:01 ok you say using fixed-width font will solve it, but what if i don't want to use fixed-font widths all the time ? 20:22:14 -!- jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jhao] 20:22:32 err fixed-width fonts i meant sorry 20:22:58 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:23:02 Then don't expect to get the alignment you're expecting right now. 20:23:49 vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 20:24:30 it's intersting that clim-listenr is using different fonts for repl input and repl output 20:24:31 -!- moto9 [~ml@p3E9E2868.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:40 not sizes, not colors, just different fonts 20:26:50 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:28:41 oleo, if it's only about the font face, you may want to make a grid and distribute each character centered into one field, to make them line up. But I don't think it will look pretty. 20:29:35 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:30:38 i'll test the font change.... 20:30:57 if fixed-width font solves it i'll report back that the issue is solved.... 20:35:41 moto9 [~ml@p3E9E1553.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-27-170.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:41:59 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:44:21 -!- pmai [~user@178-27-29-81-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Quit: emacs reboot] 20:46:51 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:46:51 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:49:53 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:03 -!- zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@fsf/member/zeroSignal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:54:57 -!- Poenikatu [~kvirc@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has left #lisp 20:55:12 -!- lisberoia [~lisberoia@121.36.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:57:27 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:26 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:31 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 20:59:10 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 20:59:33 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:59:37 -!- zophy [venom@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:00:53 lman_ [~lman@13.Red-176-83-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:13 -!- lman_ [~lman@13.Red-176-83-56.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 21:01:16 -!- STilda [kvirc@37.139.166.146] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:02:27 zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@user-049-118.vpn.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:02:47 n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:16 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 21:03:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:04:13 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-173-36-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:09 kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:03 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:05 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@162-236-113-137.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:06:05 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 21:06:09 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-173-36-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:07:36 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:08:29 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:08:33 Shinmera_ [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:08:51 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:09:16 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:23 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:30 emma [~em@user-0cev0ld.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:31 -!- emma [~em@user-0cev0ld.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:10:31 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 21:12:14 evenson [~user@77.119.133.59.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:53 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:c698:a1d0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:21:58 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 21:23:02 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 21:24:51 -!- InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:26:16 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:27:02 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:27:25 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:15 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 21:29:20 help! what do folks recommend for debugging? I'm using emacs with print statements but because lisp is so recursive it is hard to follow the code and see where bugs are 21:30:12 lisp is not so recursive 21:31:06 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 21:31:50 -!- lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has left #lisp 21:33:23 Debugging? I find that the Feynman method works pretty well. 21:33:38 TRACE can come in handy. 21:34:30 A good test suite is just so amazingly useful for preventing the bugs from getting as far as source control in the first place, but that's a whole other matter. 21:35:46 stanislav: what i mean by recursive is that to follow say a big lambda expression you need to eval lots of little pieces 21:36:42 ... If you have big lambda expressions you're doing something wrong. 21:37:18 nyef: macros! 21:37:54 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 21:37:59 *drewc* does not know how to answer the question, because he does not work that way at all and, I suppose, knows not lisp ;) 21:39:21 -!- zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@user-049-118.vpn.univie.ac.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:04 *drewc* also can recommend not having a giant lambda, avoid using EVAL, and macros should be the /final/ step when everything works _sans_ syntax.... but again, do not know much. 21:40:45 theseb: are you programming common lisp or emacs lisp? 21:40:59 prxq: scheme 21:41:20 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:47 ah. Well, #scheme is over there -->. They know that kind of stuff. 21:41:48 #scheme is thataway ----> 21:42:20 *drewc* reads the /topic again to make sure he is in the right place :P 21:45:13 -!- evenson [~user@77.119.133.59.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:46:26 -!- Mathieu [mlegrand@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:caf4] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:51:05 Mathieu [mlegrand@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:caf4] has joined #lisp 21:57:00 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:26 Buuyo [~tktktktk@S0106d4ca6dbadfa2.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:28 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 22:00:57 Hey folks. Do any of you have recommendations on any good books for common lisp, possibly also simultaneously giving some insight on functional programming? 22:01:29 <|3b|> minion: tell Buuyo about pcl 22:01:29 Buuyo: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:01:46 <|3b|> CL (and books about it) doesn't really focus on functional programming though 22:02:35 I appreciate it all the same. If the book's good, I'm happy. I can pull the other stuff from somewhere else. :) 22:02:58 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:16 <|3b|> sicp does a bit more "functional" stuff, and much more "general programming knowledge", but uses scheme rather than CL 22:03:27 You also might look into PAIP. 22:04:51 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:04:58 awesome! 22:05:11 thanks for the pointers, both of you. 22:11:30 I like ANSI Common Lisp by Graham as an introduction. 22:12:54 You may end up as an anti-loopist, however. :D 22:13:58 <_death> .. and then you read http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 22:14:12 <_death> and become enlightened 22:15:04 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:13 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:16:09 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:25 dsevilla [~user@199.Red-83-54-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:49 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 22:24:05 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:24:21 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:24:42 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:25:15 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 22:27:52 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:10 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:28:12 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:18 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-173-36-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:26 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-173-36-151.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:28:52 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 22:29:13 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:39 -!- gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-156-64.public.wayport.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29:43 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:29:57 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:30:03 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:06 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 22:31:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:32:19 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:07 (type-of (function cdr)) => FUNCTION ;; it must be functional! 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