00:00:51 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@80.31.5.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:32 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:05:50 manifoldr [~root@wnat-152010251032.appstate.edu] has joined #lisp 00:08:23 -!- manifoldr [~root@wnat-152010251032.appstate.edu] has left #lisp 00:12:37 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 00:13:57 -!- redscare [~user@18.62.31.28] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:15:45 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@109.59.246.86.mobile.3.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:16:49 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 00:18:32 sunwukong [~androirc@catv-86-101-32-210.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:19:09 MoALTz_ [~no@host81-153-176-30.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:59 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:20:05 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:21:53 -!- MoALTz [~no@host81-153-176-30.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:26:53 -!- sunwukong [~androirc@catv-86-101-32-210.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:20 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:53 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:30:55 I just added an idea I had called "expectations" to policy-cond too, to deal with declarations and so on: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/policy-cond/overview 00:31:21 It sort of mimics what stassats described with SBCL and DECLARE, but it's made explicit. 00:32:11 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:13 -!- nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:11 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 00:34:10 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 01:18:12 -!- sohail [~sohail@75-119-248-79.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:18:12 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:21:43 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 01:22:43 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 01:23:19 -!- setmeaway [setmeaway3@118.45.149.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:26:36 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc04-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:26:38 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Quit: percopal] 01:27:16 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-108-7-220-91.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 01:27:22 -!- ckoch786 [~ckoch786@ne102611l.eng.utoledo.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:27:31 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:31:52 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 01:32:24 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:32:36 snits [~snits@184-98-225-16.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:40 vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 01:34:57 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 01:38:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:38:49 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:35 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:41:41 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:41:47 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:04 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:42:24 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:35 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:43 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:48:21 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:48:21 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:37 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 01:50:51 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 01:52:25 I'm looking for a recommendation for a lisp web framework; what are some of you using? 01:53:38 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:54:49 -!- jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:55:23 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:38a0:1b22:47d9:cb8b] has joined #lisp 01:55:38 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 01:56:03 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:56:39 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 01:58:11 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:09 I use straight hunchentoot with a bunch of functions on top. 02:03:16 It is not all that supportive but my needs are simple. 02:03:23 There are only a couple other options, like clack and restas 02:04:48 Xach: Did you solve your DNS problem the other day? 02:06:50 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225178021.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:18 LiamH [~none@96.231.217.60] has joined #lisp 02:11:19 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 02:11:27 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:14:04 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-qcqyefntmzigbwap] has joined #lisp 02:17:06 percopal [~percopal@cpe-72-227-136-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:19:39 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 02:20:40 clop2 [~jared@99-23-195-115.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:00 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:21:03 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03:08:20 WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 03:08:40 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:56 <|3b|> stassats: no opinion on ' 03:11:23 <|3b|> aeth: you can get a reasonable start to converting s-exp to other language with pprint-dispatch tables, though getting 'nice' output requires a bit of work to understand how the pretty printer does layout 03:13:03 -!- cmpitg [~cmpitg@unaffiliated/cmpitg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:13:31 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:13:53 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:14:01 <|3b|> aeth: might also look at https://github.com/3b/3bgl-misc/tree/master/shader and https://github.com/cbaggers/varjo for existing attempts for glsl specifically) 03:14:31 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 03:16:09 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:38a0:1b22:47d9:cb8b] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:16:10 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 03:17:19 percopal_ [~percopal@cpe-72-227-136-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:25 |3b|: Were you discussing CEPL? 03:18:35 -!- percopal [~percopal@cpe-72-227-136-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:18:36 -!- percopal_ is now known as percopal 03:18:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:20:12 |3b|: Yes, I've noticed that there are already several. 03:20:38 The thing about OpenGL programming though is that there's so many conflicting sources on the Internet and everyone has a different opinion about how to do it properly. 03:22:09 So for my game engine I think it's best to actually do the OpenGL code in the game engine itself. 03:23:26 Once I have the OpenGL experience I might drop some part of it and combine my efforts with someone else's project, but right now I don't have the experience to know where this is useful. 03:25:22 I consider OpenGL 2 to be a crime against humanity. The UN really should have intervened. 03:25:24 aeth: I have CLinch. 03:25:39 pillton: Do you mean OpenGL ES 2? 03:25:48 That too 03:26:04 I am referring to the introduction of programmable shaders. 03:26:17 pillton: What would you have liked to see instead? 03:26:20 OpenGL graphics library. I've to make components which you can mix-and-match. 03:26:28 The only annoying part of OpenGL is that they had some nice shortcuts that got removed in favor of C-style code-everything-yourself-over-and-over-again. 03:26:47 pillton: Because OpenGL 2 kept all the old stuff, right? It's OpenGL ES 2 that removed everything _but_ shaders. 03:26:50 There must be 1,000,000 reimplementations of gluPerspective and gluLookAt now thanks to OpenGL deprecating GLU. 03:27:09 Yeah, yeah, sure you can just use deprecated code and mix it with new ones... except on OS X apparently. 03:27:37 I have no problem with the idea of programmable shaders. The problem I have with programmable shaders is the manner in which you communicate your intent to the GPU. 03:27:57 aeth: The perspective stuff took me forever to get right. Also, ray picking and other items. 03:28:24 WarWeasle: It took me forever to get right, and was broken, but I found https://www.opengl.org/sdk/docs/man2/xhtml/gluPerspective.xml when looking for how to implement LookAt. 03:28:30 -!- snits [~snits@184-98-225-16.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:29:10 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:14 gluLookAt was harder to reimplement... you basically have to write a mini linear algebra library, at least if you follow the definition the docs give. 03:29:50 feel free to use mine: https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch/blob/master/transform.lisp 03:29:56 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 03:30:19 Thanks but at this point I think I've written most of what I need. 03:31:14 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:31:36 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 03:33:36 znode [~Z.Node@61.143.60.83] has joined #lisp 03:34:07 What I would have preferred to see is something akin to (compile-for-gpu '(let ((matrix #(...))) #'(lambda (x) (* matrix x)))). 03:34:08 aeth: I'm not an expert by any means, but if you have any questions feel free to email me. 03:34:49 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:06 karswell [~user@87.115.69.199] has joined #lisp 03:35:20 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 03:35:25 pillton: cbaggers has something like that in CEPL. 03:36:01 *pillton* tips his hat to cbaggers. 03:38:54 -!- WarWeasle [~bbeer@172.242.21.170] has left #lisp 03:40:01 -!- percopal [~percopal@cpe-72-227-136-13.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: percopal] 03:45:11 <|3b|> pillton: that looks ugly :p 03:45:30 <|3b|> pillton: (defun some-shader () ...) (compile-shader 'some-shader) :) 03:45:51 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:58 *|3b|* has something like that, but not particularly finished yet 03:46:02 Hi. 03:46:02 |3b|: Yes yes. 03:46:52 <|3b|> unfortunately i haven't integrated type inference/propagation, so the ... in mine is still pretty ugly with lots of (declare (:vec3 foo bar) (:float hoge piyo)) 03:47:01 I recognize that this is not a newLISP channel but I nevertheless have a question about newLISP: does its community seem... cult-like... to anyone else? 03:48:20 |3b|: How does compile-shader deal with the lexical environment? 03:48:41 <|3b|> you mean like closures? it doesn't 03:48:51 The One True Lisp is obviously Common Lisp, descended from the mighty lispm. 03:48:52 <|3b|> probably no nested functions either 03:49:10 That is what I was trying to illustrate in my example. 03:49:41 -!- jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:50:04 |3b|: but yes, your idea is infinitely better than what the standards committee came up with. 03:50:08 i'm only just getting into gpu stuff but i wouldn't expect gpu processors to run complicated lisy code 03:50:14 lispy 03:50:17 quackv4 [~quack@vps-1058467-4367.manage.myhosting.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:20 |3b|: 1000 lines of code for hello world. 03:50:35 <|3b|> i suspect you can't really do that sort of thing until very most recent GPUs anyway (closures i mean) 03:50:36 pillton: A committee designed something that wasn't good? Wow. Must be a first. 03:50:40 opencl has compiling but no fasls, it made me sad :( 03:50:55 i think they added that in 2.0 or something, lot of good that does me 03:51:03 <|3b|> Bike: you mean saving results of compilation? it has that 03:51:26 <|3b|> (though some platforms just give you asm back) 03:52:18 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 03:53:20 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:53:25 Talking to the GPU through anything but Direct3D is kind of a hassle 03:53:39 At least D3D gave you an intermediate IL 03:53:40 jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has joined #lisp 03:53:53 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:54:05 |3b|: I saw a talk once by a guy from AMD about their new GPGPUs. It was only recently that their GPGPUs could do (map nil #'some-fn array-of-structs :key #'extract-value) quickly. 03:55:07 |3b|: I have to do that operation in every program I write. I seriously wondered who their customers were. 03:55:34 pillton: gamers 03:55:37 *lisp, perhaps. 03:56:02 But lisp is pretty anti-distribution in design. 03:56:03 pillton: Wow, I'm surprised they couldn't do that. 03:57:05 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:57:53 pillton: MAP is awesome. 03:58:59 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 03:59:08 aeth: I'm aware that CL is the One True Lisp, but it seems that multiple fora have seen newLISPers proselytize their language while remaining uddly resistant to the idea that it has severe deficiencies. 03:59:19 And I wanted to know if it was just me. 03:59:25 pillton: GPGPU is essentially a mutated DSP. For number crunching it's not that hard to use 03:59:29 newLisp actually has some interesting ideas in it. 03:59:55 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: cyphase.com] 04:00:19 like ORO? 04:00:33 <|3b|> i think opencl could have implemented *lisp since 1.1 or 1.2 or so 04:01:30 <|3b|> GPUs were optimized for 1 specific task, and got /very/ good at it, only more recently have they been generalized 04:02:01 and even that isn't that much of generalization, otherwise they lose the optimization 04:02:14 <|3b|> still have completely different design tradeoffs than normal CPUs though, so you want to pick which to use per task 04:02:42 <|3b|> they are more generalized, but still highly targeted at specific usage patterns 04:02:46 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:01 yng [~user@cpe-69-206-227-54.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:11 yeah, it's new that they even branched, right? 'course things are weird 04:03:14 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:03:18 <|3b|> huge pipelines, huge latency, relying on having lots of numerical work or lots of threads to keep throughput up despite the latency, etc 04:03:43 Bike: more like if they acted like CPUs, they would bring no benefits at all 04:03:47 not that having a different kind of processor that just happens to be pretty good for scientific computing widely available is something to complain about 04:03:51 p_l: good way to put it 04:03:57 <|3b|> vs CPUs that rely on lots of cache, and branch prediction and such for lower latency at the expense of throughput 04:04:18 bitwise: It's a combination of things -- what it comes down to is that it's essentially algorithmic procedues with partitioned scoreboards. 04:04:27 <|3b|> also smaller ram with wider busses on GPU 04:04:46 |3b|: and probably very specific usage patterns for the ram 04:04:48 <|3b|> so you only get 4-6GB, but is it has huge bandwidth 04:04:55 <|3b|> right, that too 04:04:58 bitwise: Similar to having miniature processes with no partial state of computation. 04:05:00 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:05:07 <|3b|> you have to use all that bus width at once to get the benefit 04:05:11 regular CPUs don't really have flat memory either, do they 04:05:21 Bike: depends on model 04:05:37 (outside of cache structure) 04:06:40 Zhivago: because of its namespace/"context" feature? 04:07:08 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:29 as long as i'm asking dumb questions, does there hapen to be a good opencl binding in lisp or should i just stick with C for a while. 04:08:03 <|3b|> not sure about 'good', but there is https://github.com/3b/cl-opencl-3b 04:08:15 Bike: stick with C. 04:08:17 how modest 04:08:26 *|3b|* is currently using it for stripe CTF thing, so it is usable (at least if you are me) 04:08:39 bitwise: And the inability to refer to internal state, except via a path from a top-level symbol. 04:09:06 bitwise: They aren't choices that I would have made, but they're interesting choices. 04:09:07 my C is pretty rusty and i don't want to break anything :p 04:09:10 patbarron [~pat@pool-173-75-28-121.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:13 |3b|: (thanks) 04:09:15 *|3b|* doesn't use it very often though, so not really polished, and lots of room for improvement (like adding a shader compiler in particular) 04:09:34 i don't want to use it for anything like graphics, so i guess we'll see 04:09:51 bike: Why not write in lisp but deliver in something else? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/tPR6REHNuyE%5B276-300-false%5D 04:09:58 Zhivago: They are *interesting* :) 04:10:02 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:10:35 <|3b|> yeah, only thing i've used it seriously for was bitcoin mining, and it didn't look like i would beat the existing clients so i got bored before i made an actual miner out of that 04:11:12 this usenet thread is only slightly younger than my brother 04:11:40 What I'm complaining about, I guess, is that newLISPers tend to react negatively to criticism of their language, and engage in what I call dishonest salesmanship, e.g., insisting that newLISP has the equivalent of full closures and lexical scoping when it doesn't. 04:14:11 bitwize: And not necessarily bad. 04:14:16 At least from what I've seen. 04:14:31 bitwize: Anyhow, it's interesting to see how it progresses, so I keep a lazy eye on it. 04:15:38 Well, actually newLisp does have the equivalent of full closures and lexical scoping. 04:15:58 You need to criticize the language properly. :) 04:16:20 It's like complaining the gcc doesn't have lexical closures, when it's clear that it does. 04:16:20 I know, I know. Turing completeness and all that :) 04:16:43 You need to be careful that what you think you mean by those terms is actually what those terms mean. 04:17:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:18:01 People often confuse lexical closures with lexical closures of indefinite extent -- that's probably the error that you're making with newlisp likewise. 04:18:10 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:09 Zhivago: newLISP's scoping is dynamic -- sticking things in a separate namespace is not the equivalent of a lexical environment 04:21:04 At least not in newLISP's case, since code from outside the function or other construct for which the namespace was created can still access the variables in the namespace. 04:21:55 You can kind of get away with it if you're careful enough, but the whole point of lexical scoping is to enforce certain guarantees about what a variable name refers to. 04:22:49 Oh, you're right -- I'd forgotten about that. 04:27:35 qsun [~qsun@27-32-60-26.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 04:27:57 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.217.60] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:28:07 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.119.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:29:47 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:47 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 04:30:26 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 04:34:18 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:34:21 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:34:54 vkrest [~vkrest@173.252.71.189] has joined #lisp 04:38:55 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 04:39:43 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:15 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:32 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 04:45:33 snits [~snits@184-98-225-16.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:52 frxx [frx@93-138-101-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 04:49:26 -!- frx [frx@93-141-116-230.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:50:03 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 04:50:49 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.16.202] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 04:51:04 oxum [~oxum@122.164.16.202] has joined #lisp 04:52:07 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@FL9-125-199-207-150.okn.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53:07 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 04:57:41 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:00:00 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05:58 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 05:19:24 -!- jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jhao] 05:23:15 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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[daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:54:44 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 10:55:11 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 10:55:26 -!- jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:38 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 10:56:41 Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-225-17-26.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:57:45 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:22 -!- knob [~knob@adsl-64-237-163-187.prtc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:03:25 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCDCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03:33 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 11:06:32 mmm, is it possible that handler-case fails to process a condition which is a subclass of the condition I'm handling? 11:07:31 it is extremely unlikely 11:07:41 the handler-case has a block for (or cl-postgres-error:integrity-violation cl-postgres-error:data-exception), and the condition is CL-POSTGRES-ERROR:NOT-NULL-VIOLATION, and not-null-violation has integrity-violation as a superclass 11:08:11 then something else is wrong 11:08:14 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:30 (typep (make-condition 'cl-postgres-error:not-null-violation) 'cl-postgres-error:integrity-violation) is T 11:09:42 yeah, it's quite strange here 11:10:34 is it possible that the code you're executing is not the code you think you're executing? 11:10:43 it's my reading of the error trace that's wrong, sorry 11:11:17 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:11:21 but as I have a pretty different error trace from within SLIME on macosx and running the executable image on a debian VM, I'm putting too many things in question 11:12:17 ok. Probably you should assume that you are wrong before some basic aspect of your lisp implementation is wrong 11:12:49 it seems to boil down to empty line processing in cl-csv 11:13:00 Krystof: yeah my question was badly asked 11:13:12 I meant to confirm my understanding of the spec more than anything else 11:13:57 jeronimo [~cgiirc@fantasy.ircgate.it] has joined #lisp 11:14:28 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 11:15:33 -!- spacefrogg [~spacefrog@unaffiliated/spacefrogg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:21:38 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:23:12 harish [~harish@175.156.193.24] has joined #lisp 11:27:15 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:29:57 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has joined #lisp 11:29:59 -!- jeronimo is now known as kunglee 11:30:07 -!- kunglee [~cgiirc@fantasy.ircgate.it] has left #lisp 11:31:29 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.46.159] has joined #lisp 11:32:13 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:32:40 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:34:39 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.10.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:16 -!- frxx [frx@93-138-101-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has left #lisp 11:35:27 frxx [frx@93-138-101-146.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:41:57 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-226-133.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:42:33 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:43:10 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:43:18 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 11:46:45 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-225-17-26.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: _] 11:49:24 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:50:20 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:51:59 Who wrote "Bazaar" as Emacs version in the recent Xach's survey? How am I supposed to interpret it? 11:52:56 HEAD 11:53:26 Ah, I see. 11:53:45 although they seem intent on moving to git soon 11:54:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:54:51 That would be nice. 11:56:18 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:56:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-230-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:58:03 Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-225-17-26.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:58:53 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 12:00:07 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCDCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:59 kunglee2 [~cgiirc@mistero.ircgate.it] has joined #lisp 12:01:03 OK, another question: what does "PPA/cassou" mean? 12:02:55 "cassou" means "oak" in Gascon, I think :) 12:06:06 Hmm, did somebody use oak tree to install Emacs? 12:06:41 Weird man. 12:10:09 what is the most functional lisp, scheme or clojure? 12:10:42 What do people think when they answer "cloned from the new git repos" if the answer "built from the sources" is already given? 12:11:46 *hitecnologys* sighs. 12:12:21 hitecnologys: right. stupid idiots. this is madness and needs to stop. really. can we start a petition somewhere? 12:14:26 H4ns: maybe, I'm not really into that kind of things. My job is to complain about everything, doing something is up to other people. 12:15:19 oh, you have a job as a complainer? congratulations. 12:16:11 I wish I had, but unfortunately I don't. 12:16:39 -!- lisberoia [~lisberoia@121.36.17.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:18:15 hitecnologys: ppa is Ubuntu Personal archive thingy, and Cassoun maintains that package, it's HEAD weekly snapshot packaged for ubuntu 12:18:53 hitecnologys: well complain about not having that job then 12:19:04 bjz_ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 12:19:17 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:19:54 dim: oh, thank you for answer. It can be counted as "used package manager or OS tools" then, right? 12:20:24 dim: sounds like a good idea, I'll try that. 12:21:06 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:21:12 well it only exists because the main OS fails to provide a recent enough package 12:21:44 I see. 12:21:48 at least that's how I started it back in the day, nowadays with emacs 24 I don't feel the need for using HEAD anymore 12:22:43 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:16 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:25:03 What LispStick is? 12:25:33 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-225-17-26.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:25:33 a newer lispbox 12:26:15 or matbe I'm confusing it with something else 12:26:59 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:27:17 yeah that's what it is 12:27:23 From: Patrick Krusenotto 12:27:23 Subject: Re: Working Common Lisp IDE on Windows with sbcl, emacs, slime and quicklisp 12:27:23 Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp 12:27:40 http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html 12:28:19 what lisp leans the most toward functional programming? is it scheme or clojure? 12:29:12 #lisp is only about Common Lisp 12:29:14 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:29:21 kunglee2: please learn to read channel topics and how to use google. 12:29:41 Shinmera please be less of an asshole 12:30:01 kunglee2: go away. 12:30:02 kunglee2: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#keepcool 12:30:38 Shinmera: "learn to read" is also worse than "That's not on-topic here, try #scheme or #clojure". 12:31:52 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 12:34:22 The ACL 2 theorem prover is probably the lisp that leads most toward functional programming. 12:35:07 There's also owl lisp. 12:35:17 But lisps are predominately procedural. 12:37:25 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.230.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:38:16 mal___ [mal@2001:41d0:1:66c4::1] has joined #lisp 12:38:27 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.225.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:58 dim: OK, thanks again. 12:41:51 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:42:23 protist [~protist@73.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 12:43:24 Zhivago thanks 12:43:56 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 12:44:22 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:45:03 -!- ener2 [~xxxaaaagg@158.194.168.92] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:19 Stygia [~gmpsaifi@193.104.83.223] has joined #lisp 12:47:18 Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-227-53-80.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:50:16 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:55:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:55:52 CrazyEddy [~eucalypto@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:56:29 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:59:55 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wzhcxyrctwkprnyi] has joined #lisp 13:00:27 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:01:38 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:04:10 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:06 diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has joined #lisp 13:06:14 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 13:10:20 <|3b|> are any of the libraries that run external programs likely to be faster than sb-ext:run-program, or do they just call it internally? 13:11:52 I would suppose uiop is calling into implementation specific bits such as sb-ext 13:12:22 *|3b|* supposes it probably doesn't actually matter 13:14:49 -!- pirateking-_- [~piratekin@unaffiliated/pirateking---/x-2885143] has quit [Quit: pirateking-_-] 13:15:21 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:16 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:17:26 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:29 -!- CrazyEddy [~eucalypto@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:20:38 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:23:00 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:23:08 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:23:27 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:32 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:25:13 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:26:51 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:27:38 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:27:55 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:28:06 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 13:28:10 OldContrarian [~user@c-ef9de155.42-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 13:31:39 hitecnologys: bazaar is a version control system 13:32:16 Xach: yeah, I've already figured that out. 13:39:06 -!- Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:39:23 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:48 Xach: and by the way, looks like letting people write anything without specifying recommended format was definitely bad idea. I see dozens of answers like "OSX 10.8", "osx 10.8", "OS X 10.8" and so on. It's really exhausting to process all of it. 13:39:49 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:39:59 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:40:14 ndrei_ [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 13:40:21 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 13:40:31 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:40:43 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:30 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:57 Wukix` [~user@173-228-55-74.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:42:43 munge` [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:43 -!- luis [~luis@kerno.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 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13:44:20 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:44:33 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:39 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:44:50 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:44:53 -!- Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:44:59 sfa [~sfa@208.66.156.12] has joined #lisp 13:44:59 j0ni [~j0ni@tomos.lollyshouse.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 luis [~luis@kerno.org] has joined #lisp 13:45:05 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 13:45:20 -!- mikaelj_ [~tic@c83-248-1-14.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:45:20 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:27 emma [~em@24.239.130.173] has joined #lisp 13:45:30 -!- emma [~em@24.239.130.173] has quit [Changing host] 13:45:30 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 13:45:31 jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:34 mikaelj [~tic@c83-248-1-14.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:45:34 Anarch [~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:40 Exhausting to whom? 13:46:00 I got the info I needed, I'm done with it. 13:46:06 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:46:10 yeltzooo [~yeltzooo@162.243.110.169] has joined #lisp 13:46:21 __main__ [~main@50.240.210.73] has joined #lisp 13:46:34 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:47:18 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Client Quit] 13:47:31 AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 13:47:45 Exhausting for me, I'm trying to do more detailed analysis of data you got. 13:49:03 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 13:49:18 plathrop [~plathrop@pdpc/supporter/professional/plathrop] has joined #lisp 13:49:20 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-208-1.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:55 Ash [~aaron@facestab.org] has joined #lisp 13:49:58 Whatever. Never mind. 13:50:10 sigjuice [~sigjuice@192.241.139.168] has joined #lisp 13:50:32 revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 CrazyEddy [~homaxial@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:53:27 gmci [~gmc@rrcs-71-40-75-218.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:18 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 13:56:40 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.16.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56:51 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 13:56:52 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 13:56:52 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 13:58:08 zarusky [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has joined #lisp 13:58:11 cantstanya [~hello@unaffiliated/cantstanya] has joined #lisp 13:59:09 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:19 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.23.157] has joined #lisp 13:59:30 clop2 [~jared@99-23-195-115.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:35 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 13:59:45 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:00:12 oxum [~oxum@122.164.16.202] has joined #lisp 14:00:41 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:00:47 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:00:54 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:01:26 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:16 well you need a thesorus 14:03:34 Probably. I was never good at English. 14:03:59 vaporatorius [~vaporator@198.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:48 I was thinking in terms of http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.3/interactive/textsearch-dictionaries.html#TEXTSEARCH-THESAURUS 14:05:15 Basically a thesaurus dictionary replaces all non-preferred terms by one preferred term and, optionally, preserves the original terms for indexing as well. 14:05:35 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:49 Oh, sounds cool, I'll look into that. Thanks for suggestion. 14:06:46 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 14:07:37 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:08:09 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:08:46 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 14:11:49 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:13:19 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:13:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:14:54 I guess that you could either use the feature in PostgreSQL if you're using it for data analysis, or maybe "simply" write your own thesaurus if e.g. you're writing custom CL or R code 14:15:08 I would be surprised that R would miss a thesaurus equivalent feature 14:16:42 I think I'll try writing it myself, sounds like more fun. 14:16:48 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:18:14 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:18:40 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:21:27 -!- ft [efftee@oldshell.chaostreff-dortmund.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:23:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.23.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:14 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:20 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: happening interrupted because computer burns] 14:27:48 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:29:00 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:31:26 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCDCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:10 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35:43 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:36:43 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:38:19 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:38:32 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:38:44 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 14:38:47 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:24 pmullin [~pmullin@32.97.110.53] has joined #lisp 14:42:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:43:51 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-140-200.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:44:56 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:47:50 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:48:31 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:49:42 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:49:45 hugoduncan [~user@69.157.171.126] has joined #lisp 14:51:50 -!- hugod [~user@69.157.171.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:54:29 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:55:40 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.67.34] has joined #lisp 14:56:02 msmith [~msmit297@23.31.147.162] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 so, i have a simple loop with an if statement that prints a character if listen is true. but this eats up 100% of my cpu. Can someone help me with a more efficient way of listening for input on an fd-stream? 14:56:26 jao [~jao@163.122.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:56:32 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:56:33 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.67.34] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:39 -!- jao [~jao@163.122.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Changing host] 14:56:39 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 what you're doing here is called busy looping 14:58:48 I think read-char is a blocking read, can you use it instead? 15:00:04 <_death> I suppose add-fd-handler/serve-event would do 15:00:39 <_death> though they're part of SB-SYS, which is marked "private" 15:01:39 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:01:58 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:02:16 dim _death: here is the code http://paste.lisp.org/+30TB 15:03:49 evenson [~user@178-165-130-124.dyn.orange.at] has joined #lisp 15:05:34 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 15:07:10 Alfr [~Unknown@f052048091.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:08:02 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:08:41 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCDCD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:57 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:11:05 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:11:43 -!- ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:15:11 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:15:28 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:17:17 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-227-53-80.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: _] 15:17:44 Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-227-53-80.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:47 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 15:20:50 -!- effy [~x@114.250.90.109] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:24:56 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:27:17 hugodunc` [~user@69.157.171.126] has joined #lisp 15:29:38 -!- hugoduncan [~user@69.157.171.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:29:41 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:29:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:13 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 15:30:26 ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 15:31:23 _death: add-fd-handler might not work, depending on the platform and the type of the fd stream 15:31:39 _death: sbcl on windows has a bug with non-file fd streams 15:32:00 <_death> fortitude: right, I assume the platform is linux.. 15:32:20 yes, linux 15:33:00 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-138-146.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:33:12 msmith: from what you pasted, (loop (print (read-byte stream))) does what you want 15:33:26 the unwind-protect is unecessary, since you're not doing any cleanup 15:33:31 and read-byte blocks 15:34:00 not yet the function was about to add more 15:34:00 Good afternoon everyone! 15:34:19 but, the problem is the overhead 15:34:23 good morning, beach 15:34:27 msmith: So you have a file descriptor on a Linux system and you want to know when data is available to read. What's on the other end of the descriptor? Is it a socket? 15:34:46 Does anyone know of a good starting point for extending slime with custom indenting for specific macros? 15:34:50 hi beach 15:34:53 msmith: the other thing to bear in mind is that the standard only require listen to work for character streams 15:35:56 that's probably a bad way to put it 15:36:13 since a byte stream technically never has a character available, listen is allowed to always return nil 15:36:19 <_death> msmith: you can also look at iolib... set-io-handler etc. 15:36:29 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:37:12 -!- crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:37:20 brown```: right now just a function that will do something when the data arrives 15:37:32 beach: did you ever figure out what to do with those other branches for mcclim? 15:37:39 -!- protist [~protist@73.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:38:12 fortitude: Not yet. I mean, it probably isn't hard, but since I can't merge automatically, I feel I have to read each line and make sure I understand what it does. 15:38:33 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:39 fortitude: Things are complicated by the fact that most lines have only an "untabify" as the difference. 15:38:49 fortitude: But I'll get to it eventually. 15:38:54 fortitude: Thanks again! 15:39:10 beach: the real changes are only in the second commit 15:39:16 and should only be 4-5 lines each 15:39:30 might just be easier to replicate the change by hand 15:39:40 Yes, that's what I intend to do. 15:40:01 But like I said, there is a lot of "noise" with the untabify. 15:40:28 Next time, I'll untabify it myself first, and then let you do your modification :) 15:41:18 sorry about that, it's just emacs being agressive about cleaning up my stuff 15:41:22 probably should've turned that off 15:41:47 fortitude: In general I think it is a good idea to untabify. I just typically don't remember. 15:42:07 anyway, if you click on the commit of interest in the pull request, you can see just those changes 15:42:13 like so: https://github.com/mtstickney/McCLIM/commit/2cc1c59069364f945f680fcdac6791f54f84e305 15:42:32 Right, I figured that out. 15:42:45 Now, I just have to figure out what to do with it. :) 15:42:54 indeed 15:43:06 I don't mean to be pushy, I am just anxious to contribute 15:43:08 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.1.55] has joined #lisp 15:43:18 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 15:43:19 fortitude: Sure, I understand. 15:43:47 fortitude: Right now, I do a few cleanups when I am not quite awake to do anything else, but McCLIM is not my main activity. 15:44:20 Your contribution needs a more alert state than that :) 15:44:45 But don't worry, I'll get around to it. 15:45:08 -!- Ober [~ober@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:45:12 fortitude: a) what you did there is alexandria:once-only and b) use bordeaux-threads 15:45:30 Oh, neat! 15:45:35 fe[nl]ix: I'd thought of suggesting bordeaux-threads 15:45:45 but that replaces a pretty significant chunk of code 15:45:47 I should put bordeaux-threads in there. 15:46:49 fe[nl]ix: didn't know about once-only, that's handy (I might have used with-unique-names) 15:46:56 Shinmera: http://www.common-lisp.net/projects/slime/doc/html/Semantic-indentation.html and things like (put 'register-groups-bind 'common-lisp-indent-function 2) 15:47:54 dim: I did find that link already, but it seems I'm not able to scratch enough google information together to know how to get started. 15:48:11 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 what's the name of your macro, and how to you want to be indenting it? 15:48:22 dim: To be more specific, I'd like to define custom rules on how to indent parts of the body forms of a macro. 15:49:13 dim: Each body form is composed in the form of (name argslist options*) and the option forms should appear on the same height as the name, if possible. 15:49:43 oh, yeah, I don't know how to do that 15:50:24 genericus [~user@75-136-9-68.static.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 If I can't find anything else I'll have to look at how asdf:defsystem is handled since that seems to be about on the lines of what I want to have. 15:51:25 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:52:15 nicdev` [~user@kilimanjaro.rafpepa.com] has joined #lisp 15:52:32 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 15:53:09 Hrm. common-lisp-indent-function, huh? I've got a few things that I need indented better, especially when I'm not connected to SLIME. 15:53:41 -!- zyder [~zyder@cpe-74-76-255-20.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:54:09 -!- nicdev [~user@kilimanjaro.rafpepa.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:55:02 zyder [~zyder@cpe-74-76-255-20.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:54 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 15:59:37 jpfuente_ [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:29 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:02:11 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@198.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 16:02:12 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:38 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:03:10 Boy, the McCLIM code is a mess. Generic functions nowhere used, :after methods that do nothing, etc, etc. 16:04:19 That'd be one of the reasons that I started my own CLIM implementation project. 16:04:34 some are implicitly created..... 16:04:47 Yeah. 16:04:48 nyrf where? 16:04:56 Implicitly created GFs merit a style-warning in SBCL. 16:04:57 ef* 16:04:57 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-34-1.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 16:05:00 :after methods are for overriding behaviour.... 16:05:14 supposed to at least...... 16:05:31 Quadrescence: NQ-CLIM? Probably nowhere at this point, though I do still have my local copies. 16:05:34 if it does or does it meaningfully etc...is another matter.... 16:06:02 i got clim3-calendar:calendar to work..... 16:06:17 oleo: Excellent! 16:06:33 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.46.159] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:06:36 and i compiled the manual... 16:06:45 tho it failed with at the index.idx does not exist or so.... 16:06:47 for clim3 16:07:00 well some part of it failed i mean.... 16:07:05 oleo: Strange. 16:07:05 i got the pdf generated tho.... 16:07:21 oleo: Careful, there is information in there that might no longer be accurate. 16:07:30 oleo: It is not a finished product. 16:07:37 yes yes i know.... 16:07:47 just wanted to test what it feels like.... 16:07:54 Sure. 16:07:55 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 16:08:21 how many contribute to the clim3-spec ? 16:08:25 1 16:08:36 Ober [~ober@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has joined #lisp 16:08:36 lol 16:09:09 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:24 oleo: And I would probably not take any contributions at this point. There is stuff I need to think through very carefully. 16:09:50 yep, got you....well i wouldn't be able to contribute anyway i mean.... 16:09:52 oleo: In particular what part of CLIM II presentation types to include. 16:10:09 Just saying. 16:10:23 i don't get the infrastructure let alone the concepts fully.... 16:10:27 err or vice versa.... 16:10:39 Of what? Presentation types? 16:10:46 of all mcclim concepts.... 16:10:50 I see. 16:10:58 of clim2 16:11:00 It takes a while to figure out. 16:11:06 well some of them i got.... 16:11:17 rather by accident or fortune or so... 16:11:18 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:11:18 lol 16:11:40 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 16:11:53 heavy machinery really.... 16:12:08 Yes, and a great lesson in CLOS programming. 16:12:37 for example when i start my listener/climacs duo and then terminate the running threads and try to restart them i get the canvas but no output...it just hangs with an empty canvas.... 16:12:53 A wonderful lesson in protocol design, the way everything ties together, and then the way some parts don't. 16:13:26 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:13:35 oleo: Don't blame that particular thing on the spec. Blame it on the implementation. 16:13:40 And the entire low-level input system makes more sense when you realize that it was designed for a single thread per pane. 16:14:16 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 when i don't kill the clx port thread it works.... 16:14:24 once i kill that i have to restart my lisp.... 16:14:30 or reload packages etc.... 16:14:34 You should be able to restart just the CLX port thread. 16:14:41 hmmm 16:14:54 Might be something like (restart-port (find-port :clx)) or whatever. 16:15:02 nyef: Unfortunately, there are several realizations like that which are crucial to really understanding things. 16:15:32 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 16:15:47 And I'm saying this because I distinctly remember a couple of functions for manipulating the port thread in the CLIM II spec, even if they don't make sense on some targets. 16:15:58 and uiop gave another error again.....this time with some system in clim3... 16:16:10 the whole uiop thing is not mature it seems..... 16:16:22 uiop in CLIM3? 16:16:45 uiop/asdf error concerning the loading of some clim3 source file.... 16:16:49 beach: Yeah, there are. Which is another of the reasons why I started building my own CLIM. If I build it, I almost HAVE to understand it. 16:16:56 oleo: Oh, I see. 16:17:06 and the problem is on the source file side....always.... 16:17:41 nyef: And that is why I started CLIM3/CLIMatis. I already have some insight into how CLIM II should be implemented thanks to that project. 16:18:06 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:18:29 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:00 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:19:03 CLIM II should be taken out back, shot, and its corpse looted for any interesting pocket change, spare organs, stuff like that. (-: 16:19:04 are presentations first-class objects in clim2, or do they exist only as types? 16:19:12 oleo: To get the dependencies right in CLIMatis, it would be required to understand new versions of ASDF. Unfortunately, the manual is not understandable to mere mortals like me, let alone to an ordinary user of Lisp. 16:19:48 fortitude: They are first-class objects. Subclass of output-record as I recall. 16:20:09 oh good 16:20:16 probably should have just read the spec on that... 16:20:22 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Quit: quit] 16:20:33 clim presentation 16:20:44 No specbot? 16:21:04 ppc eieio 16:21:04 Enforce In-Order Execution of I/O: http://www.nersc.gov/vendor_docs/ibm/asm/eieio.htm#idx390 16:21:07 Specbot. 16:21:11 Hmm. 16:21:21 Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:27 beach: I've got a link to the annotated spec around somewhere, I'll have a look at some point 16:21:34 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:45 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec 16:22:02 Right. 16:22:43 Use "wget -r -w 3 -X clim-spec/edit/ http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html" to get a local copy. 16:23:01 i have the pdf's.... 16:23:19 1-100, 100-200, 200-300 pages...or so... 16:23:20 ... Do the pdfs have the annotations? 16:23:23 nope 16:23:43 afaik not 16:23:43 The annotations can be useful. 16:23:50 Very! 16:24:23 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 16:25:08 redscare [~user@18.189.39.249] has joined #lisp 16:25:41 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:08 nyef: dim: I remembered a bug ticket I filed some time ago that had to do with indentation and surely enough it provided me with an example on how to do it (and it even works): See the bottom of this file https://github.com/nikodemus/esrap/blob/master/esrap.lisp 16:26:42 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:58 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 16:27:32 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:28:35 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:48 nice 16:30:29 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:30:44 Hrm. That's not bad, but it's lisp-side, and I need an emacs-side solution. On the other hand, the same syntax apparently applies for laying out the indentation rule, even if installing it is different. Thanks. 16:30:47 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-197.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:32 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: innertracks] 16:32:13 C-h f common-lisp-indent-function is helpful 16:32:16 does anyone know of a package that can do /fast/ linear algebra? 16:32:26 macsyma? 16:32:27 lisplab seems even slower than scipy, which is surprising 16:32:39 -!- ndrei_ [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:34:59 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:35:02 dim: maxima doesn't use LAPACK to my knowledge, so it is unlikely to beat scipy/lisplab 16:35:36 then http://www.cliki.net/linear%20algebra 16:35:57 cl-blapack and cl-octave look interesting? 16:35:59 maxima does use lapack..... 16:36:14 there's an /usr/share/maxima/version-bla/share/lapack dir 16:36:40 Matlisp too 16:36:43 with subdirs blas/lapack 16:36:50 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:37:08 and if you have the lapack system library built already at compile time it maybe will use it.... 16:37:40 or maybe it does not require recompile .... 16:38:26 matlisp is also slower than scipy 16:38:35 haven't tried cl-blapack/cl-octave 16:40:20 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:43:11 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 16:44:18 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:47:17 redscare` [~user@18.62.31.187] has joined #lisp 16:48:22 -!- hugodunc` is now known as hugod 16:48:34 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:08 -!- pmullin [~pmullin@32.97.110.53] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 16:49:38 -!- redscare [~user@18.189.39.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:51:37 redscare [~user@18.62.31.187] has joined #lisp 16:52:49 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:08 froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 16:53:20 effy [~x@114.246.77.67] has joined #lisp 16:54:20 -!- redscare [~user@18.62.31.187] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:22 -!- redscare` [~user@18.62.31.187] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:54:39 redscare [~user@18.62.31.187] has joined #lisp 16:57:31 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Sleep Now] 16:58:07 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 16:58:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 16:58:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 16:58:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:58:59 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:25 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:59:39 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 -!- nicdev` is now known as nicdev 17:02:42 -!- nicdev [~user@kilimanjaro.rafpepa.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:03:03 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-152.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:35 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:06:56 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-34-1.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:07:21 -!- evenson [~user@178-165-130-124.dyn.orange.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:07:36 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:08:53 -!- bitwize [~bitwize@c-98-216-250-18.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:09:12 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09:30 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:09:32 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:10:55 bitwize [~bitwize@c-98-216-250-18.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:53 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11:53 przl_ [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 17:11:54 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:12:08 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:12:39 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 17:12:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14:45 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:14:51 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:16:32 redscare: how much slower is matlisp than scipy? Both are bindings so they should be about equal *if using the same lib*. It's likely that this is the issue. 17:18:01 also, what did you test it on? 17:20:06 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:21:31 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:41 prxq: a 1000x1000 random matrix to find eigenvalues 17:23:14 but I found part of the problem --- the conversion from native array to "matrix" in scipy is much faster than in lisp 17:23:58 If I pre-convert the lisp array then the time taken is essentially the same 17:24:17 ok, that makes sense 17:24:40 prxq: yeah, I should have checked that right away. still, it would be nice to have the conversion be quicker 17:25:02 redscare: I'm somewhat surprised it is slow. 17:25:21 have you tried converting it yourself? 17:25:29 that's the next step i gues 17:26:06 the problem is that all the data has to be copied. Maybe scipy does something cache-smart there. 17:26:34 Ah, copying the array data from Lisp to a C array? 17:26:44 to a fortran matrix, to be precise 17:27:00 There are dreadfully-clever implementation-dependent things that you might be able to do if the array layouts are compatible. 17:27:38 Are fortran matrices row-major or column-major? 17:28:01 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.1.55] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:28:30 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.1.55] has joined #lisp 17:28:45 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:29:43 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:30:16 At some point the matrix I was using was being passed as a lisp list instead of an array. This is a huge slowdown 17:30:32 still though, passing as a lisp array makes the code a little slower than python's 17:31:03 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 nyef: column-major 17:31:23 Ouch. Okay, so you'd be dealing with flipped indexes in your AREF, but still doable. 17:32:13 redscare: passing a lisp array to MAKE-REAL-MATRIX, you mean? 17:32:33 And there's an SBCL hack that I had in mind a while ago for controlling the element stride for each dimension of an array... 17:33:33 prxq: yep 17:34:34 redscare: an (array double-float ...) or an (array t ...)? 17:34:57 nyef: that would be nice to have 17:35:43 prxq: .05 seconds slower :) 17:35:50 redscare: the fast arrays are constructed vie (make-array :element-type 'double-float) 17:36:00 redscare: how much in percent? 17:36:03 sorry, didn't read your question, yes, the arrays are 'double-float 17:36:26 5% 17:36:53 hm... 17:37:20 prxq: Well, if you're up for it, the basic idea is to store the stride information as part of the array header, interleaved with the dimension sizes. It'd impact the array header layout, array element addressing, array header creation, displaced array validation... A bunch of array stuff, really. But it should be pretty straightforward to do. 17:37:50 Might even be on the GSoC '13 project ideas list somewhere. 17:38:06 (Unless that was some other array-related thing.) 17:38:22 prxq: after some more testing, fluctuates between 1-5%, but the fastest lisp time is still slower than the fastest python time. I don't think that at this point it's a tractable difference 17:38:48 nipra [~nipra@122.177.199.186] has joined #lisp 17:43:09 -!- jpfuente_ [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 17:43:22 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:46 where to find the slime sbprof integration docs? 17:45:06 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.62.1] has joined #lisp 17:45:14 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.62.1] has quit [Changing host] 17:45:14 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 17:45:51 found it, (slime-setup '(slime-sprof)) 17:46:04 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 17:46:29 BullSherd [~lapamiaoo@83.247.106.212.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:46:35 -!- BullSherd [~lapamiaoo@83.247.106.212.dynamic.jazztel.es] has left #lisp 17:46:55 mmm, the reporting is silent about memory usage 17:48:52 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:19 BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:26 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:44 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:54 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-aysczryrymznpyll] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:54:02 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:55:44 vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:55:58 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.1.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56:23 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:56:36 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.1.55] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:43 It's hard to track memory allocation in SBCL if you don't exceed a certain threshhold, unless you're on a cheneygc target. 17:59:23 Plus you also have allocation that happens in other (not being profiled) threads to worry about. 18:00:33 -!- redscare [~user@18.62.31.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:01:27 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.1.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:02:32 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 18:02:52 yeah 18:03:04 my use case is loading large amount of data in batches 18:03:24 I would like to be able to dynamically cut batches depending on memory pressure, not just a static sizing 18:04:04 with a default static sizing I have bug reports where some dataset are causing crashes or (dead?) locking 18:04:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:04:23 I could try and be way more conservative of course, for starters 18:04:39 but really, adapting to memory pressure dynamically sounds attractive 18:04:54 in between, offering another knob to users 18:05:31 nicdev [~user@kilimanjaro.rafpepa.com] has joined #lisp 18:06:56 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@ti-227-53-80.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: _] 18:11:23 yates [~user@nc-67-232-27-161.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:52 is hyperspec.el something i have to configure "manually", or is it loadable with quicklisp or a package or what? 18:12:04 an emacs package, i.e. 18:12:18 Erik Naggum's hyperspec.el 18:12:21 -!- przl_ [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:12:41 dim: I think there are kludgy ways to do it. e.g. query the system for the ammount of free memory, adapt accordingly. 18:12:56 (room) parsing? 18:13:47 that might be one way. Another would be asking the OS. 18:13:49 nm - i think i got it. 18:14:10 Bike [~aeshtaer@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:15:31 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-138-146.w90-38.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 18:15:36 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:01 yates: there's a clhs project in quicklisp that fetches the hyperspec and prints some elisp forms to hook it up 18:16:03 lemex [~irc@49.14.156.109] has joined #lisp 18:16:08 yates: i haven't used it but it's there. 18:16:20 Xach: right - that's what i was goign to try. 18:16:32 but first i have to figure out why i lost my slime 18:19:18 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-24-17-64-212.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:28 -!- lemex [~irc@49.14.156.109] has left #lisp 18:20:00 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@76-244-38-58.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:05 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22:11 first of why is clim-test not actually to be found as a system in mcclim ? 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19:03:41 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-254-98.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:03:59 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:04:48 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 19:05:16 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:05:58 -!- cory786 [~cory@131.183.185.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:05:59 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:07:20 Doesn't quicklisp automatically load a recent ASDF anyway? 19:07:25 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 19:08:09 ck` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:36 innertracks [~Thunderbi@74-93-105-186-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:13 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:11:36 nyef: no 19:11:37 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:11:39 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 doomlord__ [~servitor@host86-160-0-80.range86-160.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:58 nyef: quicklisp first does (require 'asdf) thus loading the ASDF coming with your lisp implementation 19:12:59 -!- zeroSignal [~zeroSigna@fsf/member/zeroSignal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:13:19 nyef: only if this ASDF is older than Quicklisp needs (currently quicklisp wants ASDF 2.26) quicklisp tries to load quicklisp/asdf.lisp 19:13:36 Ah, okay. That makes a certain amount of sense. 19:13:40 nyef: see quicklisp/setup.lisp, function ensure-asdf-loaded 19:14:19 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-197.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15:05 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host81-153-176-30.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: brb] 19:15:28 MoALTz [~no@host81-153-176-30.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:54 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 foom [~jknight@2620:15c:6:14:be30:5bff:fedf:6db6] has joined #lisp 19:17:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:33 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:59 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-230-132.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:22:51 2.26 is recent! 19:23:09 antonv: uiop is available as a separate library, yes 19:24:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-70-245.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host 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[~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:15:16 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:19:52 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:21:03 is there a portable way to hint the gc about memory freeing opportunities before it's too late? 20:21:36 <|3b|> trivial-garbage might have one 20:21:46 <|3b|> a way to call GC that is 20:21:54 <|3b|> which may or may not be useful 20:22:25 <|3b|> yeah, there is trivial-garbage:gc 20:23:07 I meant more like... in Java you can assign NULL to a variable to deference some memory so that the GC knows to rellocate it 20:23:23 in PHP you can unset a variable to achieve the same goal 20:23:37 Sure, overwrite references to data to allow that data to be collected. That's basic GC behavior. 20:24:17 dim: Set it to nil? 20:24:19 -!- moto9 [~ml@p3E9E0C3B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:32 dim, setf that place to nil? 20:24:50 last I tried in CL it didn't give much results... meanwhile I have reworked the code and I'm using a let-bound variable in a function, and the function is called anew for each batch 20:25:07 I would think that the GC already knows to get back the memory from a previous run of the function, right? 20:26:02 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has quit [Quit: Quit] 20:26:03 Possibly, although there's the conservatism of pinned pages, the possibility of dead-but-not-cleared stack slots, and so on. 20:26:10 dim, if it is even invoked in between two runs etc. Usually there is no guarantee when memory is freed. 20:26:48 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:26:48 I would like that the memory is freed before signaling heap exhausted 20:27:32 <|3b|> if you have lots of linked conses or other objects (lists, trees, etc), might try unlinking them before removing last reference 20:27:45 Ah, yeah, known issue in SBCL, it doesn't handle running out of address space easily. 20:27:53 s/easily/gracefully/. 20:27:59 <|3b|> that helps with conservative GC sometimes, harder for a stale ref to hold whole thing in memory at once 20:28:10 hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has joined #lisp 20:28:14 It's rarely out of memory at that point, at least on 32-bit systems, but it's typically out of address space. 20:28:30 dim, by any chance, are you using sbcl and allocating huge objects (like ~2**20 size vectors)? 20:28:32 <|3b|> s/32-bit/64-bit/? 20:29:09 32-bit systems have substantially less than 2 gigs of heap address space, but these days typically have more RAM than that. 20:29:11 in that test case, strings of 237563 characters 20:29:22 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 20:29:25 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 20:29:40 I'm not sure what the 64-bit heap spaces are like in comparison. 20:29:45 <|3b|> isn't the default on 64bit sbcl 1gb now? 20:30:07 dim, try to drop every reference to it and then call (sb-ext:gc :full t) ... that fixed a similar problem for me. 20:30:09 the dynamic-space-size is 1GB by default here yes 20:30:21 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:27 *|3b|* tends to set it per machine since i want it just a bit less than system ram 20:30:58 Alfr: trick question then, as I don't want to do that unless it's necessary and I'm publishing a tool so I have no idea about the data when I write the code... is there a way to know when to do all that? 20:30:58 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@65.219.237.244] has quit [Client Quit] 20:31:07 I would like to avoid force-calling the gc at each batch 20:31:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-22-95-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:20 Why :full t? 20:31:43 dim, I don't know of one, sorry. 20:32:08 well, I might try to call the gc after each and every batch then 20:33:29 One annoying bit is that I have a fairly long list of things to improve in the SBCL GC, and low-space behavior is one of them. 20:33:37 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-wzhcxyrctwkprnyi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:33:39 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:33:46 I just don't have time and attention to work on them very often. 20:34:10 nyef, it then goes through all generations. It appears to me, that large vectors get promoted on creation ... so, sometimes without full just doesn't find it. 20:34:22 Okay, fair point. 20:34:38 large_object pages are a bit "special" in that way. 20:35:45 I never looked into the code, just found it in the docs, after if was wondering about room's output. And that worked for me. :) 20:36:42 moto9 [~ml@p3E9E2868.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:13 well on a quick test that runs for 4s, adding the gc full calls double up the timing to 8s+ 20:37:20 it's not acceptable, I have to find another solution 20:38:38 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 20:38:49 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:38:55 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 20:39:14 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:39:14 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:36 dim, i shouldn't really matter, since the time will be spent to collect the objects sometime. 20:39:43 s/i/it/ 20:40:16 I guess when you don't force it it's more efficient to garbage more objects in a single sweep 20:41:15 ...? 20:41:28 well yeah I just don't know 20:42:15 Alfr: scanning for objects takes time, even if you don't collect any of them 20:42:36 Alfr: so doing more gc runs will take more total time than doing fewer 20:43:24 How about using :gen 2 or so rather than :full t ? 20:43:46 You'll still catch the immediately-promoted stuff without having to scavenge the pseduo-static generation. 20:43:47 I can always try that 20:44:42 looks much better yes, now will it provide an answer to the real exhausted test case? suspens. 20:45:19 ok it's still very noticeable on very small data set 20:45:33 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:46:10 I wouldn't recommend dropping :gen below 1 for this case, based on what I'm seeing, but it might help just a touch. 20:46:25 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:46:41 fortitude, didn't think of that. :) 20:47:01 -!- kunglee2 [~cgiirc@mistero.ircgate.it] has quit [Quit: IRCGate CGI:IRC User (EOF)] 20:47:55 no luck 20:48:23 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 20:48:51 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-22-95-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:24 dim, you could also try to adjust the ``--dynamic-space-size'' option, if that already happens on small inputs. 20:50:08 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:50:15 it only happens with big enough inputs hopefully 20:50:24 https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/22#issuecomment-33228407 is a recent report with some details 20:51:10 I'm somewhat idly curious: did you try on any other implementations / are they heap exhausting too? 20:51:29 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:51:36 I'm running a test with CCL 20:51:45 it looks way better at handling it 20:52:46 also, on most tests, CCL performance is about the same or better than SBCL one 20:52:49 I might just switch 20:52:53 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:53:51 yeah CCL did it 20:53:58 hugoduncan [~user@69.157.171.126] has joined #lisp 20:54:13 without any explicit call to the gc 20:54:59 -!- genericus [~user@75-136-9-68.static.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56:02 -!- hugod [~user@69.157.171.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:56:12 redscare [~user@18.62.31.187] has joined #lisp 20:56:16 stanislav [~stanislav@188.251.56.164] has joined #lisp 20:56:43 dunsmoreb [~dunsmoreb@intenselogic.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:19 -!- keen____ [~blackened@pdf879bb6.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:58:37 next step could be to bypass the need for a queue entirely, and prepare batches on the reader thread, then make the batch available to the writer thread, etc 21:01:59 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:06 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:23 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:02:59 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:07:45 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:11:50 GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has joined #lisp 21:12:57 -!- pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:13:20 -!- redscare [~user@18.62.31.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:12 Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-216-143.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:37 -!- gmdjm [~gmdjm@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:41 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 21:22:45 is there a lisp function to swap elements of a two-element list? 21:23:26 (rotatef (first x) (second x)) 21:24:02 or is there a format construct similar to ~:{str~} that allows the list element position to be specified instead of just going from first to last? 21:24:13 Krystof: thank you. 21:25:23 -!- diadara [~diadara@115.249.18.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:25:35 -!- jdoles [~jdoles@unaffiliated/jdoles] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:25:57 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 21:28:04 nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d81483a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-205.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:29:35 jdoles [~jdoles@unaffiliated/jdoles] has joined #lisp 21:30:11 -!- Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has quit [Quit: Yanez] 21:30:58 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 21:31:07 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:31:29 thepreacher [~thepreach@87.114.134.89] has joined #lisp 21:33:19 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:40 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:43 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 21:37:47 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:11 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:e42d:adb1:f9df:6e14] has joined #lisp 21:38:42 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:e42d:adb1:f9df:6e14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:16 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:e42d:adb1:f9df:6e14] has joined #lisp 21:39:34 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:41:46 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 21:43:27 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:43:36 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:43:50 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-22-93-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:29 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:31 -!- Bike is now known as Haruspex 21:44:34 -!- Haruspex is now known as Bike 21:44:35 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 21:47:36 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:49:10 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 21:49:27 is there a tutorial or something more descriptive of format that the hyperspec? 21:49:49 e.g., the pcl chapter on format has ~a, and I can't find that anywhere in the hyperspec for format 21:50:02 more descriptive and complete 21:50:08 or am i missing it? 21:50:29 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:58 clhs ~A 21:50:58 ~a: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cda.htm 21:51:07 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:27 yates: Is that what you're looking for, or is that what you already found? 21:51:50 yes, no. 21:52:09 ... Well, as long as you're clear on that. (-: 21:52:20 :) 21:52:27 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 21:52:34 i guess i didn't poke under enough sub-sub-sub... topics.. 21:52:55 nyef: thank you. 21:53:26 Mmm. It's one of those things that, once you know it's there, it's obvious, but until you know it's there, where on earth could it be? 21:54:00 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 21:54:01 The other really-good place to dig for information on FORMAT is the pre-ANSI standard for CL, in hard-copy. 21:54:14 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:54:44 (Most people's copies apparently either have a bookmark in that section or just naturally fall open to that section.) 21:55:47 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:56:23 nyef: :) 21:56:58 are you actually suggesting i read stuff printed on trees? 21:57:05 how retro. 21:57:51 Not merely printed on trees, printed on the mutilated carcasses of dead trees. 21:58:01 ewweeee. 21:58:37 There are far, far worse media for transmitting a message. 21:58:45 what's next? star trek role play? "Outer Limits" theme references? "Hitchcock Presents" episodes? 21:59:06 yates, trees are nice ... to read from!... :D 21:59:22 no, everyone should use Kindles... 21:59:41 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 21:59:48 or read it on your 4in smartphone screen. 21:59:52 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00:10 I don't have to recharge the batteries on my dead tree corpses, though. (-: 22:00:33 true dat. 22:00:51 innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:02 why is it that programming in lisp reminds me of learning mathematics? 22:01:08 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:e42d:adb1:f9df:6e14] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:56 Its rigorous, logical structure, combined with the creative thought required in order to get a program to function correctly and the uncertainty of dealing with an unfamiliar field? 22:02:08 i think the lisp language must have the greatest functional encoding entropy 22:02:13 of all languages 22:02:32 ((this . also) . ((is . a) . tree))), yates. :) 22:02:32 nyef: yes, that's saying it well 22:02:39 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 22:02:58 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:10 nyef: dontcha just love it? 22:04:20 vkrest_ [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:25 Alfr: oh, i get it.. like tree == graph 22:05:25 yates: as an untyped lambda calculus language, yes 22:05:28 yates, no trees have the nice property to be acyclic. 22:05:37 yates: typed, there are other good candidates, such as Haskell or Standard ML 22:05:59 ML? 22:06:21 (although Standard ML is mostly dead nowadays) 22:06:34 Don't forget unlambda as an option. d-: 22:06:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-22-93-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:13 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:07:20 i thought Goedel showed you can't really construct theorem-proving software.? 22:07:59 Sure you can. It just doesn't work well for all inputs. 22:08:46 basically you mean it can construct some proofs but not all? 22:08:50 you can't prove general theorems with software, but you do can prove some theorems. Like parsing XML with regular expressions 22:08:50 (Specifically, it can't prove all true theorems that can be expressed in a general input language, but it can prove a very useful subset.) 22:09:23 Here's a general theorem: Parsing XML with regular expressions is a poor design choice. 22:09:27 -!- ejbs` [~user@h82-117-106-145.dynamic.se.alltele.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:09:48 is there a common, accessible example of a theorem that can't be proven with such software? 22:09:54 nyef: but you do can parse a limited subset (which surely is not as useful as the theorem's subset) 22:10:04 i had abstract algebra 1/t 22:10:46 yates: The ACL2 people might have some good examples. Or the Coq people or... Basically, if you're curious, start digging into the automatic theorem prover communities. 22:10:55 And I just got called for a meeting, I'll be back in a bit. 22:11:03 l8r 22:12:01 this seems to be a good read on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems 22:12:05 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:13:10 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-22-95-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:41 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:17:09 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:19:30 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:20:25 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:24:24 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:25:44 -!- _death [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:26 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:27:20 -!- ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:27:52 _death [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has joined #lisp 22:29:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-99-22-95-181.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:31:41 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:07 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 22:33:35 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:34:17 i've always been confused on how to indent lisp - can someone suggest a good read on it? 22:35:23 i kinda do it like C's "{" and "}", basically indenting N for each block... that's probably wrong 22:35:37 "the way emacs indents it after you loaded slime", is the usual answer 22:35:51 <_death> yates: http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~idurand/enseignement/PFS/Common/Strandh-Tutorial/indentation.html 22:36:15 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:57 yates: (add-hook 'slime-mode-hook #'(lambda () (slime-setup '(slime-indentation)))) 22:37:02 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:37:09 foom: i think i've turned off electric behavior on slime - i know i usually hate it. i'd rather do it myself. 22:37:28 call me a luddite 22:38:02 _death: that looks just like what i was looking for - thanks. 22:38:06 yates: use C-j instead of RET. Or simply press TAB to auto-indent 22:39:32 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.23.157] has joined #lisp 22:39:43 francogrex [~user@91.182.165.101] has joined #lisp 22:39:54 or reassign the key :P 22:41:22 hi 22:41:42 so is this acceptable: http://ur1.ca/ghtkr -> http://paste.fedoraproject.org/71474/90603281 22:42:27 (as far as indentation, i.e.) 22:42:39 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 22:42:52 Xuehas [~Xuehas@206.75.37.141] has joined #lisp 22:44:06 Hey does anyone know how I can run a emacs command as soon as it starts by specifying something command line 22:44:37 Xuehas: someone in #emacs might 22:45:02 good call I wanted it for.slime that's why I thought someone here.might know 22:45:40 <_death> yates: the consequent and alternative forms aren't indented as specified in the tutorial 22:45:45 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 22:47:27 -!- kahr [~kahr@524A4A2C.cm-4-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:48:02 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:16 _death: right, ok thanks. 22:48:41 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0B60.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:49:55 endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has joined #lisp 22:51:02 is there a way to specify that a format expression not terminate with a new line, so that i can string expressions together? 22:51:27 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:51:34 by default no newline is added. You'd need to put a ~% at the end to GET a newline 22:55:03 -!- endou [~paul@188.165.96.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:56:03 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:57:29 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-5d81483a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59:28 ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 23:00:37 kahr [~kahr@524A4A2C.cm-4-3b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lisp 23:01:05 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@198.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:01:13 <|3b|> if you mean you want to ignore a newline in a format string, ~ 23:01:15 <|3b|> will do that 23:01:42 |3b|: no, prxq nailed it 23:02:06 jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:13 francogr` [~user@91.182.165.101] has joined #lisp 23:04:13 -!- francogrex [~user@91.182.165.101] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:05:05 has anyone here gotten multiple emacs, running slime, pointed at the same swank server working? 23:06:37 probably. did you pass :keep-alive t or whatever it is to the swank server? 23:06:40 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.23.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:20 Bike: yeah, :dont-close t 23:07:44 having another problem? 23:07:53 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: going home] 23:08:34 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:08:36 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:09:16 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Sleep Now] 23:10:56 are there known example of condition-variable use cases for "double buffering" with a reader and a writer thread? 23:10:59 -!- francogr` [~user@91.182.165.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:11:37 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:13:42 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:38 -!- Krystof [~user@81.174.155.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:15:45 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-208-1.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:33 -!- vkrest_ [~vkrest@mpk-nat-3.thefacebook.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:17:10 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:b:1c3d:718d:2920:aa8b] has joined #lisp 23:18:07 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:18:42 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:01 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:22:49 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:23:10 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_%28synchronization%29 should do 23:24:34 Davidbrcz [~david@146.30.136.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:49 -!- innertracks [~Thunderbi@c-50-159-9-43.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:24:52 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:06 -!- jpfuentes2 [~jacques@pool-173-53-102-185.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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