00:00:52 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@149.red-80-29-87.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:50 segv-: oh, you want just the ones not named in &key; you don't want to remove them manually? 00:02:16 jasom: yeah, i seem to be doing a lot of (when (getf ...) ... (remf ...)) 00:02:28 segv-: you could probably write a macro to do that for you 00:02:30 -!- knuton [~knuton@82-170-38-177.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:02:35 and it seems like (defmacro whatever (&key a &rest other) ...) would be unambiguous 00:03:14 jasom: i could, but it's the kind of just-subtle-enough thing that i'd rather not do to avoid confusing people who have to read this code 00:03:59 the way lambda lists work seems like something i should leave alone unless i have a really good reason; and this doesn't seem like a good enough reason 00:04:11 but damn it would be convenient today 00:04:55 btw I don't think you are allowed to destructively modify & rest lists 00:05:15 oh, hm. i need to double check that then 00:05:42 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:06:51 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 00:07:15 -!- emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:07:32 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:08:18 <_death> segv: alexandria:remove-from-plist 00:09:57 emma_ [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:15:05 -!- emma_ is now known as em 00:16:05 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:18:52 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 00:26:49 -!- pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:27:48 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:28:44 knuton [~knuton@82-170-38-177.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 00:28:51 davazp [~user@14.Red-79-152-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:51 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:30:55 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:32:19 Does anyone have a reader macro that makes #{ and #} act like a double-quote. Something like pythons triple-double-quote """? 00:32:41 I want to embed C++ code in Common Lisp code. 00:33:35 i don't have one but it seems pretty easy to write. just literal strings 00:34:42 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 00:34:53 That's plan "B". Plan "A" is beg on #lisp 00:34:54 ASau` [~user@p54AFF3D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:35:05 pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has joined #lisp 00:35:14 drmeister: Suppose you can base your reader macro on the #| |# pair. 00:35:22 yeah, that's what i'd do. 00:35:34 drmeister: https://github.com/slyrus/smarkup/blob/master/quote-reader-macro.lisp 00:35:40 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 00:35:42 heh 00:35:55 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 00:36:05 plan a success 00:36:07 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:11 (symbol-name '|char* c_code() { return "Better avoid pipes!"; }|) 00:37:26 Huzzah! 00:37:44 -!- knuton [~knuton@82-170-38-177.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:38:03 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF092.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:38:06 slyrus: Thank you. 00:38:21 you're welcome. enjoy! 00:39:09 Phoodus: That's an interesting idea but I didn't want to pollute my symbol table like that. Thank you though! 00:39:38 (symbol-name '#:|char* c_code() { return "Better avoid pipes!"; }|) then :) 00:39:45 drmeister: keep in mind that it's setup for #q{...} but you get #q[ etc... as a bonus! 00:40:19 easy enough to rework for #{...} 00:40:55 slyrus: Yup - I see that - nice. Now if I could just get emacs to do C++ indentation between those quote delimiters and Lisp indentation everywhere else... 00:43:25 I was looking for a similar feature  need to indend some CDATA crap (that's actually SQL) within XML files. 00:43:30 indent* 00:43:55 Syntax colouring would also be welcome within those sections :) 00:46:12 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 00:52:16 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 00:55:26 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:57:31 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 00:57:36 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505d:2560:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:51 -!- mogglebam [~marco@132.239.10.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:03:28 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:07:28 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:09:13 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:10:34 -!- Watcher7 [~w@adsl-108-210-218-82.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:15:50 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:18:46 how can i use (format) to create a conditional string of either "1 Comment" or "2+ Comments"? 01:19:03 clhs ~p 01:19:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_chc.htm 01:19:16 and the generic conditional 01:19:17 thanks 01:19:28 Watcher7 [~w@108.218.0.238] has joined #lisp 01:20:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:45 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-axzpwnwtblatsiwm] has joined #lisp 01:22:21 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:26:57 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.118.22] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:27:43 Sgeo 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[~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:50:16 CrazyEddy [~trackless@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 03:50:42 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:51:15 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-225-77-108.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53:28 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:54:27 -!- CrazyEddy [~trackless@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 03:54:27 CrazyEddy [~trackless@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:57:54 jwer [~lasca@190.48.62.137] has joined #lisp 03:58:04 Hello 03:58:34 hew jewr 03:59:12 given a c++ library, what would be the most recomendable strategy to achieve inheritance from CL? 04:00:23 suppose that in the library I have defined classA <- classB <-classC (<- inherits) 04:01:15 now from CL, how can I create a define a new class that inherits from classC? 04:01:55 s/create a// 04:02:10 -!- rk[wrk] is now known as rk[] 04:02:13 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-byydoebfdhngtwid] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:03:06 jwer: inheritance from a class in a C++ library? 04:03:54 p_l: yes, is that possible? 04:04:09 how do you interface with C++? 04:04:15 jwer: technically yes. Practically... uhh. It's a lot of work, especially if integrated with CLOS 04:04:23 oGMo: a 10 feet pole? 04:04:58 jwer: one way, probably easier to get running fast, would be to reuse the approach of SMOKE (you can see it in CommonQT) 04:06:07 other than that, generate "wrapper" classes in C++ for the ones you want to inherit from, so you have hooks to put your own methods 04:07:06 My favourite stratgy is to interface with C++ by not interfacing with C++. 04:07:21 There are files and sockets and so-on for good reasons. 04:07:43 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:08:04 Of course, with an implementation like what's his name is putting together, that might become easier. 04:10:10 Is there anything like SWIG to automate this? 04:10:44 not yet ;/ 04:11:02 i was figuring you had an approach 04:11:10 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 04:13:59 -!- davazp [~user@14.Red-79-152-116.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14:20 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 04:15:00 I was thinking that a rewrite of the library would be necessary :( 04:15:20 jwer: i have started on a reasonable approach to wrapping C++ with c2ffi, but I haven't had the immediate need to finish it, so it's about 1/3 done .. and in addition, it'd need the actual wrapper generator 04:15:21 jwer: SWIG can *try* to generate something 04:15:27 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-xjyokggioubdzuqn] has joined #lisp 04:15:29 swig can't generate anything 04:15:38 jwer: however, C++ is pretty adamant about not interfacing with anything 04:16:04 C++ interfaces with C, which is the trick 04:18:23 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 04:24:11 joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:32 'recreation' of the library in CL, using the foreign type system plus coercion when needed seems to be the solution, but for big libraries this is kind of unpractical... 04:28:13 am I right? 04:28:27 -!- rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.84.215] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29:32 rainbyte [~rainbyte@190.191.84.215] has joined #lisp 04:29:37 so that it would be possible to elaborate a package to provide an interface between CL and the C++ library 04:31:56 that would imply a new oo api. On the other hand, a functional api is easier to come up with from scratch. 04:33:35 may be I'll go functional first, then oo. 04:34:00 Thank you for your opinions and time! 04:34:10 -!- jwer [~lasca@190.48.62.137] has left #lisp 04:35:16 knuton [~knuton@82-170-38-177.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 04:39:50 -!- knuton [~knuton@82-170-38-177.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:39:53 -!- pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:41:45 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:43:35 protist [~protist@253.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 04:44:02 -!- protist [~protist@253.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:13 -!- clop2 [~jared@99-23-195-115.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46:55 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:49:49 joneshf-laptop 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quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:08 effy [~x@114.250.82.43] has joined #lisp 05:56:07 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-186-224.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:57:27 -!- sellout [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:57:53 sellout- [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:23 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 06:02:38 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.6] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:03:29 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 06:06:01 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:06:37 mogglebam [~marco@99-95-170-156.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:12 Hi, is there more complete documentation of SBCL calling conventions than http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Full-Calls.html#Full-Calls 06:07:25 alternately where are those implemented i'll just read the source 06:09:44 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:09:55 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:10:05 Tarential [~Tarential@li472-156.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:26 Found the implementation it is in src/compiler/target/call.lisp 06:13:20 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:21:32 ...The full-call macro in there is complicated 06:23:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:24:13 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 06:28:04 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:44 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.172] has joined #lisp 06:31:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:33:24 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has quit [Quit: bye] 06:37:31 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:38:21 malbertife 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[~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 09:08:47 chare [322f51ac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.47.81.172] has joined #lisp 09:08:58 clojure > lisp 09:09:09 off topic... 09:09:18 iwilcox_ [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 and also a bit unsound 09:09:25 in alphabetic sorting, lisp > clojure 09:09:25 and clojure being a lisp, it's hard to understand 09:09:37 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o p_l 09:09:56 plus, you would write, maybe (< 'lisp 'clojure) 09:11:59 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:12:07 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:26 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 09:13:28 -!- iwilcox_ [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:13:29 and it would be wrong 09:13:34 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 09:14:33 you guys gonna move to clojure eventually 09:14:42 nope 09:15:16 knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-23-96.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #lisp 09:15:27 chare: i tried, but i'm back. 09:17:15 I've left the Java environment entirely and I'm glad. 09:17:37 I revived a dead language rather than stay on the JVM. 09:17:42 clojure still wins the competition for biggest REPL ever 09:17:49 Why do you care about the JVM? 09:17:58 1.5 gigabyte resident memory set was... too much for me 09:18:05 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.248.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 09:18:25 That's a fair point -- configuring the JVM memory was always the most annoying part. 09:18:57 Zhivago: and no one has decent packaging / updating for the JVM or libraries running on it. 09:19:12 Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. 09:19:20 Zhivago: leiningen + that debugger package + nrepl ended up starting 3 VMs with no sharing despite being composed of 90% the same code... I bet there were some tricks to avoid that, but they should be by default 09:19:25 carpenoctem_ [~carpenoct@192.241.206.219] has joined #lisp 09:19:29 But still, that's independent of java, per se. 09:19:36 how would you use assembly code within lisp? 09:19:36 p_l: get more memory. 09:19:52 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:19:53 carpenoctem_: most implementation have an integrated assembler 09:20:00 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 09:20:08 elfenixtorres [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 09:20:08 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:20:13 H4ns: it was pure waste of memory, that's what I am against 09:20:14 carpenoctem_: but usually, assembly is not documented and considered to be internal. 09:20:31 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:20:57 p_l: i don't mind "wasting memory" if it makes me productive, but i find nrepl+clojure to be inferior to slime+cl. 09:21:23 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:21:33 ugg 09:21:41 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:21:53 H4ns: that's one thing, and the part that the wasted memory meant nothing to increased productiveness - the same thing could be done in one process that used 1/3rd of it, but it involved some arcane spells being cast at different parts of clojure code 09:21:59 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 09:22:15 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:22:20 H4ns: and such sudden spikes weren't healthy on loaded system (because I had other important things running and related to work being done) 09:22:35 carpenoctem_: there are portable assemblers written in cl, though. 09:22:42 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 09:22:44 carpenoctem_: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-x86-asm/ for example. 09:24:50 Zhivago: I mainly used Scala on the JVM rather than Clojure. The scala compiler loves memory (regularly used 2-3 gigs), is very slow ... the scala build tools (like sbt) are pretty much terrible ... reliance on ivy in sbt led to a lot of pain with things like Jetty ... but that's all off topic here. 09:25:09 *barf* 09:25:46 Zhivago: but that was my road back to Dylan. 09:26:05 you guys mad that you don't got openCV? 09:26:10 I might use JVM a bit more if ABCL got macros for FFI that resembled clojures. That's one thing I miss. 09:26:28 Unfortunately whenever I try to write ABCL's FFI I get lost 09:26:30 chare: you may now go. 09:26:43 chare: ... only recently I have seen two interfaces to OpenCV 09:27:00 as for mad... nope, but you're a poor troll who can't even afford something better than webchat 09:27:15 -!- p_l has set mode +b *!*322f51ac@*.50.47.81.172 09:27:15 -!- chare [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (Don't hit the door on the way out.) 09:27:57 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o p_l 09:28:24 meh 09:28:48 ramkrsna_ [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-bedclnnutxzahjvy] has joined #lisp 09:28:56 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-14-137.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:29:35 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:29:57 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:51 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:32:59 I don't understand that crack about opencv he made. It's got ffi bindings; I worked with the guy who was making them 09:33:26 chavezgu [~chavezgu@as67-82.tontut.fi] has joined #lisp 09:33:33 Phoodus: he was piss-poor troll 09:33:38 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:33:43 well, that part was obvious from the time he used infix ;) 09:33:47 iwilcox- [~iwilcox@84.93.81.125] has joined #lisp 09:39:18 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:41:33 -!- Hanli [~user@140.242.214.2] has left #lisp 09:43:35 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:47 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 09:45:21 hitecnologys [~user@62.182.195.200] has joined #lisp 09:46:10 -!- knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-23-96.wireless.uva.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:47:17 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-axzpwnwtblatsiwm] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:47:48 -!- hitecnologys [~user@62.182.195.200] has 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has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:29:12 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:31:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:31:18 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:32:37 -!- knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-23-96.wireless.uva.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:32:51 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 14:33:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:33:59 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-3-153.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #lisp 14:34:53 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:35:23 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:36:08 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:36:11 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 14:37:51 -!- Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has quit [Quit: Cya!] 14:38:10 -!- liqu0rice [~niklas@brln-4db9689d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:38:13 Blkt [~Blkt@2a01:4f8:150:80a1::aaaa] has joined #lisp 14:38:50 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 14:40:54 The value of the last statement in a function turns into the function's return value, right? So if I have (if (t) t) that will return t if it's the last statement in the fucntion, right? 14:41:16 Trying it out would've been faster than writing that down. 14:41:29 ... even if there's an else clause after it (that's not being executed) 14:42:02 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 14:42:22 generally, yes. However, there are macros that do other things, like prog1 14:43:20 but technically, then entire prog1 body would be the last form in the function, in some sense, so whatever 14:43:30 Right, but I'm not using anything like that, just an if statement with an else clause. Just wanted to make sure that the value being returned from the "then" statement is in fact being returned. 14:43:52 OldContrarian: yeah, that's what an "implicit progn" entails 14:43:54 (even though there's an else statement below it) 14:43:57 OldContrarian: The documentation refers to those forms as having an "implicit progn" 14:44:03 yep. Also know that if you let values "fall through", then multiple value returns still work 14:44:11 Ok, thanks. 14:44:30 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.68.3] has joined #lisp 14:45:52 Another question - I'm having trouble figuring out exactly which statement I get errors from, using Slime + ccl, since I'm not getting an "error in line X" message (for reasons I can understand) 14:46:12 But a message saying "the line that looks like this is where it's failing" would be helpful. 14:46:17 OldContrarian: does it open the SLDB debugger in slime? 14:46:31 I.e. do you see the stack trace buffer? 14:46:53 Yes, I see the stack trace, but I'm having trouble identifying anything meaningful in it. 14:47:06 OldContrarian: go to the line that you are interested in, and press "v" 14:47:13 it should take you to the source 14:47:22 Ah, thanks. 14:47:30 clop [~jared@moat3.centtech.com] has joined #lisp 14:48:09 is there any portable Lisp way to get the current process id? 14:48:18 clop: No 14:48:22 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.65.168] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.65.168] has quit [Changing host] 14:48:22 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 14:48:23 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:48:29 yes, using portability libraries :-P 14:48:39 clop: But there are libraries that provide this for most OS'es/Lisp implementations 14:49:03 is there some quicklisp library you'd recommend for it? 14:49:22 clop: yes 14:50:02 (iolib.syscalls:getpid) 14:50:18 thanks i'll try that out 14:50:32 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:51:03 Pressing "v" in the stack trace (on the line labeled 1) flashes my entire function I'm having trouble with (not just the offending line), the pressing v on the line above it takes me to what I presume to be the source of some library or somesuch. I see nothing helping me find *which* line / statement in my function it is that's failing. 14:51:31 OldContrarian: You don't usually get that. 14:51:43 Why? 14:51:44 If you, however, compile with debugging you should get more detailed information 14:51:45 OldContrarian: when that happens to me, i recompile the function with the max debug level. In SBCL that is done with C-u C-c C-c. Then it highlights the exact form. 14:51:49 OldContrarian not necessarily: (defun f (x) (return-from f 42) (1+ x)) (f 2) --> 42 14:52:08 OldContrarian: Just put (declaim (debug 3)) in the beginning of the file 14:52:10 I believe you can do that from within sldb, too. 14:52:23 I don't like to go the declaim route. I use the C-u prefix instead. 14:52:31 C-u C-c C-k will compile & load the file with max debug. 14:52:42 I don't know if it work swith C-u C-c C-l to just load. 14:52:53 Xach: woah, I didn't know that. :-) Then again, I usually compile everything with debug 3 14:52:58 knuton_ [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-14-229.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #lisp 14:53:05 Trying (although I'm not sure I'm understanding half of what you're saying) =) 14:53:12 OldContrarian: you're not allowed to fbind CL:T, therefore (if (t) t) if conforming, can return anything: (shadow 't) (flet ((t () 1)) (let ((t nil)) (if (t) t))) --> nil 14:53:59 Xach: By the way, which one is the "official" montezuma repository? I was cloning from https://github.com/skypher/montezuma and that one builds cleanly on the latest SBCL from source,. 14:54:02 ogamita: Thanks for the info, but I have *no* idea what you're talking about. Fbind? Never heard of it. CL:T? Yeah, never heard of that either. 14:54:06 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 14:54:37 OldContrarian: t is not a function therefore you cannot write (t). 14:54:41 OldContrarian: CL is an alias for the COMMON-LISP package. T is a symbol on that package. 14:54:55 Oh, you're talking about *that*, yeah I realized that after I typed it. 14:55:25 -!- knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-3-153.wireless.uva.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:55:31 Ah, I get it. I'm familiar with the package concept from other languages, but haven't learned the syntax of it in lisp yet. 14:55:59 Meaning, I guess, that CL:T means "True, in the common lisp package". 14:56:24 the fact that all symbols live in packages (not their function or value or whatever) is a common hang-up in initially learning lisp 14:56:35 Euh god, going through the ASDF source trying to find out how to get my systems to work is giving me a headache. 14:56:46 the symbol T is defined in package common-lisp 14:57:02 A symbol named "T" is defined in the package named "COMMON-LISP". 14:57:04 so when you say T, it's generally referring to common-lisp:t 14:57:07 Some other symbol equally named 14:57:08 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #lisp 14:57:20 "T" can be interned in another package, and be distinct from CL:T. 14:57:41 Phoodus: (make-symbol "blar") or #:blar don't have a package 14:57:44 And since you're not allowed to define a function named cl:t 14:58:03 er 14:58:05 '#:blar 14:58:15 it only really starts to bite you in the backside when you get into writing macros, and expect symbols to match. If they're the same name, but happen to be from different packages, it doesn't match and is hard at first to know why 14:58:48 (or are in no package, as in the '#:foo example) 14:59:12 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:53 -!- Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:02:52 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-59-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:03:02 Joreji [~thomas@136-135.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:03:55 -!- sellout- [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:05:44 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-59-13.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 15:07:34 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:07:57 loke: that's the one. it did not build for me. what is the latest sbcl for you? 15:08:02 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 15:09:09 Xach: I did it on my work machnie. Let me try here at home (updating...) 15:09:12 gimme a sec 15:10:24 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:12:22 nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has joined #lisp 15:14:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:15:27 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:15:48 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:17:15 -!- knuton_ [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-14-229.wireless.uva.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:17:42 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:04 Xach: I'm trying to do QL:UPDATE-ALL-DISTS on my home machine, and I'm getting this: 15:18:08 Condition QL-DIST:BADLY-SIZED-LOCAL-ARCHIVE was signalled. 15:18:12 Do you know about this? 15:19:04 loke: Are you using qlalpha? 15:19:35 knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-23-96.wireless.uva.nl] has joined #lisp 15:20:49 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:21:16 Xach: no 15:21:37 Corrupt download? 15:21:48 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:21:48 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:22:09 brb 15:23:04 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 15:23:57 It can mean a truncated download, yes. The first restart will delete and retry. 15:24:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-47.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 15:26:29 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:27:05 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:31:12 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:32:09 nha [~prefect@koln-4db4efe5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:57 Xach: OK, loads properly on 1.1.14.44-d0b03c8 15:34:20 sellout- [~Adium@161.98.9.235] has joined #lisp 15:37:38 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4db4efe5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:37:54 loke: I get http://report.quicklisp.org/montezuma/2014-01-17/failtail.txt in 1.1.14.43, and it's highlighting a real bug in the code. 15:40:21 Xach: you running the test suite? 15:40:27 No. 15:40:49 I have no problems loading the packagges 15:41:31 How are you loading them? 15:41:36 (ql:quickload) 15:41:47 Ah, yeah, that inhibits warnings. 15:41:47 "montezuma" and "lucene-in-action-tetst" 15:42:11 Not a great feature of quickload. 15:42:18 I'll say 15:42:19 :-) 15:42:31 If you use :verbose t you'll get the warning and failure 15:42:53 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:43:16 mordocai [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has joined #lisp 15:43:28 is there a :force-recompile or something like that? Or do I have to delete the cache? 15:43:34 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:37 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:44:22 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:44:48 cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has joined #lisp 15:45:03 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 15:45:44 ASDF has that as an option somehow 15:46:24 I just deleted :-) 15:46:27 OK, got the error now 15:48:19 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:49:28 Xach: Yeah I can see. The arguments to SETF are reversed 15:49:44 I mean AREF 15:49:57 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:51:59 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 15:52:18 clop: (with-open-file (s "/proc/self/stat") (read s)) is portable lisp as long it runs on linux :-D 15:52:32 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:54:39 hlavaty: Ohhh, you clever you :-) 15:55:11 I can't say I'm very positivie to Linux-specific stuff though :-) 15:58:07 procfs is quite widely supported it seems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procfs (of course no windows) 15:58:24 hlavaty: Yes, but the actual content of the files in proc are wildely different 15:58:45 but that is solvable in portable cl 15:58:48 hlavaty, thanks, yeah, i think I need something that works on at least linux and mac (and ideally windows under cygwin or similar, but that's gravy) 15:58:59 On Solaris, for example, they are binary, which arguably is better. All you do is mmap() them and read from the structs in /usr/include/sys 15:59:23 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.87] has joined #lisp 15:59:29 mmap is not portable cl 16:00:08 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-47.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:00:44 hlavaty: I know. My point wasn't actually bout binary vs. not binary, but rather that the format are different even though most OS'es has a /proc filesystem 16:00:44 clop: http://src.knowledgetools.de/tomas/winapi/index.html is iolib port to windows, the getpid function should be implemented, but if you go the iolib way, you'll trade for other annoyances 16:01:38 clop: you can make a cffi binding to https://github.com/hyperic/sigar 16:01:48 they already figured the OS portability 16:02:15 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 16:02:55 i think my basic goal is: come up with something that's reasonably portable but still based on libraries that other people are actually using and maintaining 16:03:29 my general feeling is that iolib seems like something that has some traction? 16:03:36 so maybe that fits 16:03:37 clop: It does 16:03:48 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 clop: That said, iolib can be problematic sometimes because it contains nothing but low-level FFI stuff 16:04:10 Does iolib still require manually installing an extra C library? 16:04:22 hargettp [~hargettp@c-76-119-232-173.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:33 Xach: yes, a very important library 16:04:51 This can be both a blessing and a curse, of course. One benefit is that it allows you to do IPv6 on SBCL for example, which otherwise isn't supported. 16:05:04 That will inhibit iolib traction. 16:05:08 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:05:47 Xach: I don't care. it's necessary 16:06:49 That's fine. It's one of the reasons I avoid iolib and don't recommend it to others. 16:07:21 you can't avoid C libraries for OS interfaces 16:07:27 We'll see. 16:08:34 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@c-76-119-232-173.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08:43 there's something to be said for having autoconf configure things instead of trying to replicate the process in lisp 16:08:55 I'm sympathetic to both views 16:09:51 not unless somebody manually hard-codes thousands of constants and structs across operating systems 16:10:00 that would be a huge amount of work 16:11:02 it would be nice if OS makers exposed the ABI through some declarative file, like json or xml, and used that to auto-generate the libc 16:11:34 dlowe: but I'm dreaming :) 16:12:24 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:13:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:13:55 fenlix: you could write a program that extracts this information in JSON form yorself 16:14:09 fenlix: like a cleverer version of CFFI-grovel 16:14:32 loke: you have no idea 16:15:13 SWIG for posix :) 16:15:33 there is a reason why SWIG developers don't want to touch system headers 16:16:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:16:31 it'd be awesome if glibc came with a swig file 16:16:50 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:17:29 I'd need at least OSX's libc too 16:18:19 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:18:25 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:35 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:18:42 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 16:19:16 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 16:20:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:21:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:22:04 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 16:22:38 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:43 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:23:10 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:23:27 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 16:27:08 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:32:55 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:35:36 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:49 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:16 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:37:45 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:32 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-89-63.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:41:46 Good evening everyone! 16:42:54 Good news everyone! 16:43:31 dim: here? I was just curious if you got a chance to look at the most recent cl-csv patches, and also what implementation you are primarily running\ 16:44:21 also if anybody familiar with SBCL fast-read-char, is there an approved way to use that in a library. Currently it seems that necessary symbols are not exported: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/blob/read-into-buffer-until/read-until.lisp 16:44:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:45:10 Alfr [~Unknown@g225135026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:12 -!- CrazyEddy [~trackless@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:47:47 -!- chavezgu [~chavezgu@as67-82.tontut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:49:04 CrazyEddy [~shelvingl@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:51:33 It appears that there are 3 McCLIM repositories on GitHub: by moore33, antifuchs, and slyrus. 16:52:09 I don't know what state they are in, but I remember comparing 2 of them and they are not the same. 16:52:49 quicklisp pulls from common-lisp.net cvs 16:53:23 Xach: I suppose I could convert that one to GIT so that I know what state it has. 16:53:46 I would very much like to stop quicklisp from pulling from common-lisp.net cvs 16:53:52 CVS is not good. 16:53:52 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 16:54:11 Xach: So would a GitHub GIT repository be acceptable? 16:54:46 Xach: If I am going to make changes to McCLIM, I need such a thing anyway. 16:55:22 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:59 dlowe: system headers come in one version per compiler version. Have fun! 16:57:19 (and they're quite horrible, swig-wise). 16:58:08 beach: only 3? Where have they all disappeared? No, there are more than 3. That's one problem with the git/github model: to easy to clone. 16:58:10 too easy. 16:58:36 ogamita: OK, I should have said "at least 3". 16:59:04 At least, for those that are on github, you can click on Network and see how they're related. 16:59:19 Oh? 16:59:42 eg. https://github.com/slyrus/mcclim/network 17:00:00 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:00:05 I see. 17:00:12 beach: are you the maintainer of mcclim? 17:00:28 if not, who is that person? i am not sure. 17:00:38 Xach: I don't think there is a maintainer. 17:01:06 Xach: But I could do minimal stuff if there is a general consensus to that effect. 17:01:15 Tim Moore seems to have been the most active, at least, IIRC, I've cloned my copy from his. :-) 17:01:28 ogamita: Oh, good. 17:01:37 Because I can contact him. 17:01:51 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:28 One problem is that pull request are administratively complex to deal with. Perhaps between lispers we could just have an entirely read/writeable gitorious (it's free software) on common-lisp.net. 17:03:22 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 17:03:50 ogamita: I am afraid I don't know the implications of what you are saying. 17:03:51 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-84-139.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 17:04:18 (+1 'git) 17:05:03 Xach: So what is preferable to CVS? 17:05:54 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@d5152EDDB.static.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:06:08 Perhaps we could setup an experimental read/write lisp git server, and see if quicklisp could then feed from it? 17:06:27 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:49 -!- j0ni [~j0ni@tomos.lollyshouse.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:10:13 ogamita: What are the implications of "entirely read/writable" and "read/write lisp git server" that you don't already have on (say) GitHub? 17:11:31 j0ni [~j0ni@tomos.lollyshouse.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:58 DonMartin [~donmartin@p5B223AF0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:14 *beach* must be asking really stupid questions since he doesn't get any answers. :( 17:14:27 beach: nearly anything, but preferably something distributed like git. i think git is the best choice and github is the best host right now. 17:14:35 <|3b|> beach: on the good side, patches always get applied, but on the bad side, patches always get applied 17:15:04 -!- DonMartin [~donmartin@p5B223AF0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:15:08 <|3b|> so bad idea for something for quicklisp to pull from 17:15:09 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 17:15:15 yeah. 17:15:38 beach: let's take an example. I've got a little patch for mcclim (a typo, or a little bug, just one or two token changed). To have it included in the main repo, I would have 1- to put my repo on github, 2- to find on github how to perform a "pull request" to be sent to the owner of the main repo, 3- he would have to receive an email and process it, revising my patch, and 4- if validated, he would have to direct github to perform the 17:15:38 pull (or perhaps to do it himself locally, and then push back to github). 17:15:40 beach: when a CVS server is down, it is hard to make "release" tarballs from checked-out repos. 17:15:41 at least. 17:15:41 Xach: Though presumably you would want a tagged release rather than the latest modifications, right? 17:15:57 beach: I have no preference in that regard. That is up to the maintainer to decide. 17:16:09 Xach: Oh, I see. 17:16:12 beach: the alternative would be that anybody who can write a lisp function would have read/write access to some repository containing all the lisp sources. 17:16:22 AILab style if you wish. 17:16:52 <|3b|> or anyone who thought the repo should contain a bunch of spam links instead of lisp code, or anyone who thought it should download a rootkit, etc 17:17:02 ogamita: I've found sending patches on github to be a lower barrier of entry to using mailing lists 17:17:05 ogamita: I would rather take the extra job to apply the patches. 17:17:20 There'd be no need for a maintainer. The border between libraries could be also fuzzier, so it should help people who'd like to fusion common libraries. 17:17:43 *|3b|* suspects "nobody thinks it is important enough to maintain a fork" might be a good criteria for not being in quicklisp 17:17:46 |3b|: amongst lispers? 17:18:15 ogamita, so do you trust everybody who can write lisp to not put malicious code in that world writable repo? 17:18:35 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:19:01 Alfr: yes. A-priori. 17:19:04 <|3b|> ogamita: someone was here recently trying to hire people to crack recaptcha, and supposedly the most widely distributed lisp (or scheme?) code is in some adware or something, so not all lispers are "white hats" 17:19:45 Xach: If people agree, I would consider converting the CVS repository on common-lisp.net to a GitHub repository and then start applying patches that I consider sane, either from other existing repositories or new patches. 17:19:46 Well, let's take as a first approximation, all the people who have published a lisp library in quicklisp. 17:19:50 I would trust them. 17:19:51 <|3b|> for that matter, aren't you the one that tells people to rm -rf? 17:19:55 ogamita, interesting. 17:20:31 |3b|: Yes, but I don't have such code in com.informatimago. :-) 17:20:32 -!- aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:21:06 <|3b|> some people would consider lisp code in informal discussion to be safe, why is your cutoff "in a repo but not on a mailing list" more reliable? 17:21:31 -!- scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:21:31 -!- MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:21:38 aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:21:57 |3b|: there are still a lot of sarcasm and irony in discussion. "rm -rf" is clearly sarcastic. But let's not repeat the discussion that's on cll. 17:22:26 <|3b|> and this also assumes no lisp users will be actively targeted 17:22:49 MikeSeth [~me@174.143.244.95] has joined #lisp 17:23:21 -!- hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:23:30 |3b|: let's agree that we could include all the people who already have lisp libraries published on quicklisp. If they wanted to introduced backdoors, they could already have them in their published code. 17:24:24 <|3b|> ogamita: then you have introduced an extra layer of authentication which makes it complicated again 17:25:19 |3b|: also, black hats targets worthy targets. Are lisp systems worthy targets? 17:25:41 <|3b|> people annoyed by a specific IRC user might consider them a worthy target 17:26:25 <|3b|> or people who find out a particular web site runs on lisp might consider it (or its devs) a worthy target 17:26:49 <|3b|> assuming no lisp code will ever be run on a system worth hacking sounds like we have lots of confidence in the future of lisp :/ 17:26:59 :-) 17:27:17 I don't think I would take safety advice from someone who tried to delete all of someone's files with malicious Lisp code. 17:27:24 -!- knuton [~knuton@wcw-stud-145-109-23-96.wireless.uva.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:27:37 -!- MikeSeth [~me@174.143.244.95] has quit [Changing host] 17:27:37 MikeSeth [~me@unaffiliated/mikeseth] has joined #lisp 17:27:52 I'm not trying to give safety advice, but try unsafety/openess experiment. 17:27:58 I don't trust you. 17:28:01 Xach: What would you consider an acceptable answer to your question regarding who the maintainer of McCLIM is? 17:28:26 *|3b|* suspects "publicly claiming to be the maintainer of mcclim" would be enough to be considered the maintainer 17:28:51 beach: A nice answer would be someone saying "I am the maintainer and here is why". But I would accept answers like "nobody" or "Bob Smith has the most recent commits" 17:28:51 But having a github repo is not claiming to be maintainer. 17:29:21 <|3b|> right 17:29:57 Xach: OK, how about I contact moore33 and discuss it with him? I would also discuss it with slyrus and Krystof here. 17:30:18 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:31:30 Sounds good to me. 17:31:49 *slyrus* is patiently waiting for mcclim3 17:32:41 slyrus: Would it be acceptable to you if I do what I suggested, i.e. convert the CVS repository to a GitHub repository and then start applying patches there? 17:33:42 IIRC, from what I've seen, tim moore github is converted from cvs and contains more recent code. 17:34:18 I also converted from CVS, but it wasn't more up-to-date, when I compared the resulting git repo. 17:34:26 ogamita: OK, I'll start with that one if moore33 agrees that it would be better. 17:34:28 beach: sure, that would be great. I think we should take one of our github repos and transfer ownership to #sharplispers and have you, tim moore, etc... join that group 17:34:34 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:34:48 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:5059:7064:4150:b824] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:35:09 IOW, we should be forking a git repo, not all independently reforking the CVS repo, if we're going to be forking that is 17:35:12 A good sharplispers explanation at a nice URL would be nice. 17:35:29 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:6936:648c:959b:1f3] has joined #lisp 17:36:19 slyrus: Again, I would rather do it alone. I think we were a bit too liberal giving out write access to the CVS repository. 17:37:43 that would be even better 17:38:08 err, actually, I forked from Mariano Montone repo, with his last commit on 2012-07-12 (14aa3d2). 17:38:43 beach: IMO, github is a much easier place for folks to track their own divergent versions and to request that patches get back into the trunk than, say, cl.net's CVS stuff 17:38:57 1000% easier 17:39:10 divsion-by-zero easier! 17:39:21 -!- w37 [~user@31.221.13.71] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:37 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:39:42 beach: the sharplispers model is a reasonable compromise when no single individual is willing to take ownership 17:39:51 It's also very easy to set up a git server anywhere. 17:39:52 if you're willing to be that guy for mcclim, that would be awesome 17:40:07 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:40:39 slyrus: OK, thanks. 17:40:44 of course it would be awesomer still if you shipped mcclim3 :) 17:41:06 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:41:19 slyrus: By "mcclim3", do you mean an updated implementation of the CLIM II spec, or an implementation of the CLIM3 spec? 17:41:28 the latter 17:41:42 slyrus: Sure, those two are not mutually exclusive. 17:41:57 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:24 There are many arguments in favor of my proposal. I need some CLIM II functionality in CLIM3/CLIMatis, and after working on CLIM3/CLIMatis, I now have ideas on how to improve McCLIM. 17:44:23 Krystof: Around? 17:46:27 minion: memo for Krystof: Would you agree to consider me the maintainer of McCLIM (see the channel log for details)? 17:46:27 Remembered. I'll tell Krystof when he/she/it next speaks. 17:47:12 *beach* vanishes in order to have dinner, but might be back later. 17:47:26 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:47:54 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 17:51:33 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:53:12 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:54:57 -!- keen__ [~blackened@p3b93124e.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:56:41 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 17:58:06 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 17:58:26 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:00:55 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:01:53 yrk [~user@vtelinet-216-66-104-6.vermontel.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:07 -!- yrk 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[Remote host closed the connection] 18:50:15 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:47 beach: I would be happy to think of you as McCLIM maintainer! 18:50:47 Krystof, memo from beach: Would you agree to consider me the maintainer of McCLIM (see the channel log for details)? 18:52:00 well, that's settled then 18:52:38 tolk [~user@host78.201-252-78.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:53:08 nipra [~nipra@122.177.239.241] has joined #lisp 18:53:46 hi. noob question. can i use with-slots with a struct ? or is there anything similar for structs ? 18:54:51 you can use with-slots with a struct; if your implementation gives you errors, you can complain a little bit 18:56:58 tolk` [~user@host224.190-30-168.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:58:39 -!- tolk [~user@host78.201-252-78.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:59:09 tolk`` [~user@host135.190-226-79.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:59:24 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 19:01:40 -!- tolk` [~user@host224.190-30-168.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:02:37 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 19:03:28 senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has joined #lisp 19:03:30 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:03:49 tolk``` [~user@host79.186-109-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:04:24 -!- tolk``` is now known as tolk 19:04:29 so it is non standard then? 19:05:33 -!- tolk`` [~user@host135.190-226-79.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:57 tolk: yes, you should not use with-slots on structures. Instead, use with-accessors. 19:09:44 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 19:09:51 oh, so with-accesors can be used with structs. 19:10:11 Krystof: if your implementation complains for with-slots used on structures, you have absolutely no right, as per the CL standard contract, to complain. 19:10:18 tolk: yes. 19:10:32 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 19:10:37 i'm terribly afraid of non-standard stuff 19:10:45 Myself too. 19:10:46 i'll avoid it as the plague 19:11:07 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 19:11:18 I love non-standard stuff. 19:11:25 or else be eaten by a grue. 19:11:37 pjb, why is that? I.e. where does with-slots explicitly talk about only using it on instances of classes? 19:12:24 "The macro with-slots translates an appearance of the slot name as a variable into a call to slot-value." 19:12:35 so slot-value is the issue, right? 19:12:43 Yes. 19:12:46 slot-value is not standard for structs ? 19:13:04 so with-accesors avoids slot-value i guess 19:13:06 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:21 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:13:21 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 slot-value: "The specific behavior depends on object's metaclass. An error is never signaled if object has metaclass standard-class. An error is always signaled if object has metaclass built-in-class. The consequences are unspecified if object has any other metaclass--an error might or might not be signaled in this situation. Note in particular that the behavior for conditions and structures is not specified." 19:14:05 ugh 19:14:22 The thing is that conditions and structures were specified before CLOS, therefore anything that uses CLOS can't be safely used on conditions or structures (vendors had already implemented them outside of CLOS). 19:14:35 hysterical raisins huh 19:14:41 Furthermore, this allows for different and perhaps more efficient implementations of conditions and structures. 19:14:54 -!- senj [~senj@unaffiliated/senj] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:14:58 -!- nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:09 with-accesors uses the struct's name to access the slots? 19:15:18 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 tolk: no, with-accessors uses the accessors. 19:15:35 what are those ? 19:15:37 Sebboh [~user@fsf/member/Sebboh] has joined #lisp 19:16:21 Any couple of functions named a and (SETF a) with the right signatures are good. 19:16:54 i see 19:17:35 pjb, good to know. :) 19:17:36 Actually, it's a little vague, how with-accessors connects with structure accessors, since structure writers are not necessarily functions named (setf field). defstruct only ensures that you can write (setf (field s) v). 19:17:54 hargettp [~hargettp@c-76-119-232-173.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:19 as long as it's safe to use with-accesors with structs on all CL implementations in the universe i'm pretty happy 19:18:24 So we should infer that with-accessors actually expands only to (setf ( ) ) forms, not definitely not (funcall '(setf ). But this is not a too strong restriction. 19:22:38 wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:09 tolk` [~user@190.138.225.83] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:25:04 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:25:18 -!- tolk [~user@host79.186-109-197.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:25:31 -!- mogglebam [~marco@99-95-170-156.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:42 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:b:f4ea:3c64:3cb4:bd7d] has joined #lisp 19:26:18 -!- tolk` is now known as tolk 19:26:56 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 19:27:51 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.155.27] has joined #lisp 19:29:08 I've heard stuff like CLOS is "bolted" on common lisp and it's "bones" show. What does that mean? Does CLOS work in non-standard, non "macro" ways, like are there some pitfalls which you have to know like C++? I have read this in Steve Yegge's article and some other places besides. 19:29:44 <|3b|> main place it shows is that lots of other things in the language that could use it don't 19:29:46 For example, this works like this, except in _this_ particular case, where you have to ... stuff like that 19:29:46 It only means that you can easily define a subset of CL that excludes CLOS. 19:30:14 -!- nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:30:36 hmm so CLOS is bolted on, I know that's the beauty of lisp, the entire object system was designed from within the language. But is it awkward in places? 19:30:38 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:31:32 It would be more correct to say it WAS bolted on. Modern implementations can have a more comprehensive fusion of CLOS, ie. one could implement CL using CLOS to implement everything. 19:31:37 I was talking about this article - http://steve-yegge.blogspot.in/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html read Steve Yegge's take on CLOS and then Pascal Constanza's replies. 19:32:37 This kind of article won't teach you anything if you're not a seasonned lisper. I'd advise you rather to read Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ http://www-cgi.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/LispBook/index.html, or PCL. 19:32:42 CLOS is relatively verbose to use, but that's simply a feature of Lisp choosing to use words over punctuation in order to define things 19:32:48 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:32:56 I find the power CLOS far outweighs the edge cases where it may be a tad bit awkward..and in practice, I did not find that the rough edges were encountered very often 19:33:08 Take clisp or sbcl, can their CLOS be built from within the language, without any compiler hacking? 19:33:15 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:33:27 sure, but it'd be slow 19:33:35 yes yes okay unoptimized but possible? 19:33:54 adityarajbhatt: yes, in all cases it can be done. There's PCL, a portable implemetation of CLOS. 19:34:02 If yes, then how are edge cases even possible? I thought macros were infallible in Common Lisp. I've just recently started learning them so.. 19:34:03 Some implementations based their own CLOS on PCL. 19:34:19 Yes, macros are god. 19:34:25 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 19:34:27 so then where do edge cases even come in? 19:34:34 What edge case? 19:34:55 Like the canonical accessor for containers 19:35:11 There's none. 19:35:17 What do you mean? 19:35:29 ... infallible? what? 19:35:51 I mean, perfect, sort of native macros, built using the language itself rather than like C's preprocessor hacks. 19:36:12 lisp macros are lisp functions. 19:36:28 I'm not sure lisp functions are perfect either :) 19:36:37 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-xjyokggioubdzuqn] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:36:38 <|3b|> adityarajbhatt: macros are just programs, which are written by programmers, who are as fallible as with any type of program 19:36:41 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:50 in the case of SBCL, CLOS is basically built-in 19:36:51 there are reference implementations of CLOS written in standard non-CLOS-dependent lisp 19:36:57 more so, really, because writing good macros is pretty hard 19:37:01 its Lisp, most things can be achieved in Lisp :) 19:37:10 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 19:37:23 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/session] has joined #lisp 19:37:26 adityarajbhatt: perhaps you should read http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html 19:37:29 and given that you can usually access the assembly code output of the internal compilers, you could even write an optimizing version yourself :) 19:37:33 (actually, that's likely not necessary; I'm not super familiar with the internal implementation details of CLOS) 19:37:35 haha i didn't mean programmer mistakes though. I'm new to all this, so just read that article I linked earlier. It says some stuff about CLOS being bolted on acceptably, but not perfectly, the way (i thought) macros were supposed to be. 19:37:46 pjb: Yes I've seen that, but it's way over my level for now. 19:37:49 <|3b|> you could make a more transparent integration of CLOS with CL if you replaces all of CL in your integration 19:38:00 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/session] has quit [Changing host] 19:38:00 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-busunsoyjixaztlo] has joined #lisp 19:38:15 adityarajbhatt: that's why you should read gentle. 19:38:28 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:38:38 <|3b|> adityarajbhatt: for example the CL "sequence" type can't be replaced by CLOS classes without replacing everything in CL that deals with sequences 19:38:55 <|3b|> which is one of the "bolted on" placed 19:38:57 But sbcl has extensible sequences, so it's possible to do it. 19:39:31 <|3b|> right, modifying an implementation is included in what i meant by "replacing things in CL" 19:39:53 <|3b|> implementations can do that more transparently than "portable" code 19:39:54 okay one more thing when I do '#1=(a b c . #1#) clisp segfaults. 19:40:04 Isn't there a safe way to represent circular lists in clisp? 19:40:13 <|3b|> try setting *print-circle* to T first 19:40:14 Even in CL! 19:40:30 adityarajbhatt: we're talking about a language, not about specific implementations. 19:40:33 -!- sword [~sword@2601:7:1900:f4:e2cb:4eff:fef7:a13] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:40:35 nand1 [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:43 pjb: Yes that second doubt was unrelated sorry. 19:41:18 and if clisp segfaults, it's because you've not compiled it properly, with the libsigsegv library. 19:41:29 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:41:44 no it works now with *print-circle* set to T. 19:41:45 <|3b|> pjb: i think it is actually running out of memory trying to print it 19:42:00 I don't think it was a compiling error though. 19:42:24 Without *print-circle* true, it should just keep printing (a b c a b c a b c  19:42:48 Oh you seem right because instead of doing that it says SIGSEGV cannot be cured. 19:42:57 <|3b|> pjb: are you sure it prints it incrementally? 19:43:48 Your doubts seem to be founded, it doesn't. 19:44:04 Since it doesn't have anything to scan for, I wonder why. 19:44:25 http://paste.lisp.org/+30R2 this is the output 19:44:31 That should be a bug.p 19:44:57 adityarajbhatt: just compile it with libsigsegv. 19:45:10 hmm is that normally not the default with distros? 19:45:35 <|3b|> pjb: seems to be compiled with it here 19:45:40 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:42 distributors don't know everything about all the packages they include. Therefore most packages are badly configured. 19:45:52 <|3b|> and still segfaults at address 0x0 when printing that circular list 19:45:57 That's the reason why you should always recompile and configure the software you often use. 19:46:09 pjb: Are you trying to convert me to Gentoo? :) 19:46:55 I would have, but nowadays I felt back to debian. But with a sizeable /usr/local/src  19:47:35 |3b|: So, since it mentions SIGSEGV does that mean it was compiled with it? Is there any way I can check which switches were used at compile time? I don't see anything mentioning that on the manpage. 19:47:35 Automatically compiling all your software with configurations that the distro selects won't actually improve the situation over getting precompiled software from the distro. 19:47:50 foom: pjb was talking about the packagers getting the wrong switches. 19:48:01 <|3b|> adityarajbhatt: looks like you can tell with clisp --version 19:48:03 oh sorry misread your comment. 19:48:25 foom: with gentoo, you fill your own set of options in /etc/make.conf But granted it'd be better to fine tune your compilation scripts. 19:48:30 more tangibly, something like (length ...) is defined as a regular function, not a CLOS-dispatched function, even though it handles multiple types. So you can't extend the functionality of #'length via CLOS 19:48:31 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 19:48:47 Phoodus: Yes that's exactly what was mentioned on that article I linked earlier. 19:49:29 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@c-76-119-232-173.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 19:49:32 if implementations only purported to conform with a 20-year-old standard, then there would be no grounds for complaint. But just like implementations provide extensions, so should users expect extensions, reasonable interpretations, and new features. 19:49:34 yea but make.conf is a global thing, so you're still depending on the distro to have used it properly to configure properly the package that you're assuming they're clueless about 19:49:50 Users absolutely should complain if features they would like are missing from their implementations; they always have that right 19:50:09 (implementors have the right to disregard complaints, or to explain why they will not be acting on them) 19:50:29 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:50:48 |3b|: hmm mine is compiled with libsegsegv. Why does clisp still give that error? Is this a bug? http://paste.lisp.org/+30R2/1 19:50:50 francogrex [~user@109.128.82.138] has joined #lisp 19:52:50 -!- galdor [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:53:38 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 19:55:10 <|3b|> adityarajbhatt: i assume that is how it responds to running out of memory 19:55:23 *|3b|* doesn't generally use clisp, so no idea if that is normal or not 19:55:30 Oh okay 19:55:56 *adityarajbhatt* wishes someone would implement a full-fledged roguelike so he can practice his new lisp chops on modding it. 19:56:06 I can't get Langband to run and that's the only thing I found. 19:57:54 Heh, I'm giving a talk on procedural level design this year. Wish it was in CL. :S 19:58:43 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.155.27] has left #lisp 19:58:52 I haven't gone through all the examples, but Land of Lisp is full of games... ah poo 19:58:53 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:59:25 Oh, what am I thinking? I should've pointed to dto and #lispgames 19:59:35 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:59:52 He totally makes roguelike games using CL. 20:00:15 j_king: where are you going to be presenting at? 20:00:39 Phoodus: ... Pycon :3 20:00:55 ooh 20:00:56 <|3b|> heh, langband says it might work on sbcl, use 0.7.7 or newer 20:01:02 i like games, Phoodus 20:01:04 they're fun 20:01:11 ah, there's a procedural game content generation coming up at the next local IGDA meeting. Thought it might have been an interesting coincidence ;) 20:01:28 +talk 20:02:45 robiv: and the fun of making games has little to nothing to do with the fun of playing games :) 20:04:43 -!- seangrov` [~user@24-182-13-178.static.arhd.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:04:53 -!- karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:06:12 dto [~user@pool-100-0-107-54.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:51 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:07:27 karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has joined #lisp 20:07:40 -!- dto [~user@pool-100-0-107-54.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:31 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:09:06 -!- tesuji [~tesuji@unaffiliated/tesuji] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:09:43 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:10:42 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-188.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:50 tolk` [~user@host43.190-137-239.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:10:56 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:11:20 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-188.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:43 if anybody familiar with SBCL fast-read-char, is there an approved way to use that in a library. Currently it seems that necessary symbols are not exported: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/cl-csv/blob/read-into-buffer-until/read-until.lisp 20:12:05 Poenikatu [~kvirc@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 20:13:09 -!- tolk [~user@190.138.225.83] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:13:09 Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:15:14 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225135026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:22 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 20:15:58 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:17:37 Alfr [~Unknown@g225135026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:13 -!- Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:21:15 bobbysmith007: the standard read-char just does 1 typecheck before calling read-fast-char internally 20:21:39 sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 20:21:46 it's pretty fast just to call read-char 20:23:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-30-204.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:36 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 20:24:43 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9E2D5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:55 j2002ba2 [~nirved@77.70.32.179] has joined #lisp 20:26:20 -!- sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Client Quit] 20:27:12 askatasuna [~askatasun@181.30.10.50] has joined #lisp 20:31:36 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.82.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:54 sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 20:35:04 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:35:34 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:35:46 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:36:35 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Changing host] 20:36:35 kushal [kdas@nat/eucalyptus/x-vplqnqhcbnxovyxt] has joined #lisp 20:36:35 -!- kushal [kdas@nat/eucalyptus/x-vplqnqhcbnxovyxt] has quit [Changing host] 20:36:35 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 20:37:33 -!- j2002ba2 [~nirved@77.70.32.179] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:10 Phoodus: well, it seems like the performance difference is about 300% speed up between the two implementations in that link 20:40:39 ie: read-into-buffer-until is about 600K cycles for my test and fast-read-into-buffer-until is about 200K cycles . It usually wouldnt concern me, but I actually have import process over gigabyte csv's so getting a 300% speed improvement is a pretty big deal 20:40:52 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:45 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:42:17 ultimately its probably still dwarfed by network time to / from other systems, so maybe not a big deal, but it was frustrating that my version of read-line was 3xs as slow as sbcl's read-line and seemed to be doing pretty much the same thing (till I looked at the "fast" implementation 20:45:00 can you avoid the type check with some declaration/ 20:45:39 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:45:44 bobbysmith007: yeah that's why i did fast-io for octet-vectors, it took a surprising amount of work to make it not suck 20:46:13 where "any beyond some type declarations" is surprising 20:46:28 oh. 20:46:34 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 20:46:54 wbooze [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-137-22.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:46:59 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-132-3.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:02 -!- sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:47:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:48:56 -!- wbooze is now known as oleo 20:49:04 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-137-22.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:21 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-137-22.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:04 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:52:20 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@138.23.59.87] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:53:39 pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has joined #lisp 20:54:52 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:55:43 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:57:24 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:b:f4ea:3c64:3cb4:bd7d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:12 HG` [~HG@185.2.29.205] has joined #lisp 20:58:44 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 20:58:45 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:27 vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:415b:1eb7:cdaa:20f3] has joined #lisp 20:59:31 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 21:00:50 sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 21:00:54 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.5.88] has joined #lisp 21:00:54 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.169.5.88] has quit [Changing host] 21:00:54 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 21:01:18 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:02:48 -!- sellout- [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:52 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225135026.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:02:54 sellout-1 [~Adium@65.101.242.214] has joined #lisp 21:03:36 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 21:04:19 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 21:05:50 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:06:11 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:19 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:26 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 21:08:54 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:10:20 cafe^muerte [~user@cpe-108-185-147-239.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:05 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:38 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 21:18:09 oGMo: that was my experience as well. Well thanks for the input folks, have a good evening 21:18:24 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@86-210.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:36 tolk`` [~user@host152.190-225-87.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:20:14 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:21:31 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:21:43 -!- tolk` [~user@host43.190-137-239.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:23:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:26:29 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:27:32 -!- vkrest [~vkrest@2620:0:1cfe:18:415b:1eb7:cdaa:20f3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:28:45 how can i use postgresql's auto-increment on a primary key integer using postmodern? 21:30:26 Watcher7 [~w@108.218.0.238] has joined #lisp 21:30:57 axion: What are you trying to do? 21:31:10 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:31:13 Obtain the assigned value of the key when you do an insert? 21:31:19 i'm trying to populate a table with unique id's automatically upon insert 21:31:59 since postgresql supports sequences i thought it'd be easy to do with an abstraction in postmodern but i'm not finding it 21:32:50 I haven't tried doing an auto-increment column like that for the primary key of a table, I went a rather different route for various reasons. 21:33:59 hmm 21:35:19 Okay, the postgresql manual suggests making a "sequence", then setting the default value of the primary key to nextval('sequence_name'). 21:35:32 That'll get you halfway there. 21:36:02 And if you're using S-SQL for INSERT, add a :RETURNING clause to get the primary key value back if you need it. 21:36:42 I can't help you with the DAO layer because the DAO layer is MOPpery, and I find MOPpery to typically be too fragile to use. 21:36:53 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:58 ... And I have to get back to work. /-: 21:37:16 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 21:39:21 tolk``` [~user@host148.190-31-127.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:40:44 yeah using dao. i guess my table has a timestamp column that is always unique. i only wanted incrementing id's to prettify my url paths 21:40:51 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:56 -!- tolk``` is now known as tolk 21:41:25 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 -!- tolk`` [~user@host152.190-225-87.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:43:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 21:44:39 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ed-uluka.dyn.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:48:08 Isn't there an example of using incrementing id's in the dao? 21:48:33 It seems a rather obvious use-case. 21:51:05 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:54:23 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:56:16 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:59:35 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-171-83.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:05:16 liqu0rice [~yaaic@brln-4db9689d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:47 -!- minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:33 vkrest [~vkrest@mpk-nat-7.thefacebook.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:01 libraries that return alists of downcased strings are evil; can anyone think of a reason they would do that rather than keywords? 22:09:13 -!- specbot [~specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:09:30 Well, sometimes it doesn't really make sense to use symbols. 22:09:39 What function are you thinking about exactly? 22:10:18 jasom: symbols are not garbage collected while the package they're interned in not deleted, and other references exist. 22:10:22 py-configparser parses configuration files in the python flavor of .ini; this consists of sections with option names and values. The option names get string-downcased and are used as keys in alists 22:10:27 minion [~minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:28 mere strings are more easily garbage collected. 22:10:34 nyef: i didnt see one. not that big of a deal though. 22:10:53 jasom: yes, for configuration options I'd agree that keywords would be nicer. 22:11:22 If you want to use strings as keys, then at least make a hash-table so I don't have bugs everywhere I use assoc without :test #'equal 22:11:58 jasom: on the other hand, you've got the sources, you can always correct it. 22:12:11 Or if not, you can always wrap it in a saner facade. 22:12:19 right 22:12:58 well they let you specify a function for normalizing the option name, but they check for valid option namese *after* running that function, so it can't return a keyword 22:13:56 add^_ [~user@m5-241-186-97.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 -!- copec [~copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:29 -!- minion 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