00:00:20 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:00:54 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:02:40 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:03:19 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:03:37 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.42.83] has joined #lisp 00:03:39 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #lisp 00:07:28 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:08:03 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:08:38 -!- emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:10:01 emma [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:10:36 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 00:12:03 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:19 pillton [~user@124-171-224-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:14:49 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 00:15:50 -!- Baggers [~Baggers@91.237.34.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16:40 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:34 antoszka: do you have a testcase? for that? 00:21:14 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:21:49 -!- spacebat1 is now known as spacebat 00:22:40 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 00:22:50 -!- Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23:19 antoszka: like which snippet from the manual causes it 00:23:45 -!- jdoles [~jdoles@unaffiliated/jdoles] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:23:53 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:26:13 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:28 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.42.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:32:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:35:02 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-202-53.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:37:51 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.192.39] has joined #lisp 00:38:35 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has left #lisp 00:39:43 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 00:48:49 antoszka: I tried the demo that ships with ltk, plus every complete example from the manual with tcl/tk 8.6.1; I will be more than happy to look at any issue you can give me a test-case for though. I have some experience fixing bugs in ltk 00:57:08 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:46 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 00:57:59 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.102.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00:53 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:05:10 sy__ [sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:39 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZZzzzz] 01:05:51 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.247.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:00 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:55 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:16:14 -!- karswell [~user@239.54.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:18:30 drmeister 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yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 02:59:39 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 03:00:45 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 03:01:44 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:03:58 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:15 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 03:10:06 snits [~snits@75-167-8-215.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:35 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-219-132.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:57 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.69.237] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:12:41 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:41 Pixel_Outlaw [~user@63-153-69-123.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:04 Hello everyone. Has anyone had experience with Lisp for graphical games? 03:21:15 there is #lispgames 03:21:16 Looking for a well documented library... 03:21:37 Hmmm Ok, I guess I can pop over there. 03:22:15 cl-glx 03:22:19 enjoy 03:23:14 hey guys 03:23:21 whats the best lisp to write web apps in on linux 03:23:43 we were thinking clojure with leinengen but im really not feeling it lol.. 03:23:51 clunky, ugly, weird! 03:24:09 i'm not really sure if there's a lot of recent activity around anything but clojure for web 03:25:03 robiv: I've been using the restas framework for CL a bit lately and have been pretty happy with it (I haven't used it for anything huge though) 03:26:23 Pixel_Outlaw: a few of us were working on cl-sdl2, etc .. again, #lispgames 03:27:19 I see, I check the wiki but it is often hard to know which packages to invest in. Many are from the 90's... 03:27:23 it's not in quicklisp but it's basically ready to be, not everything is implemented but plenty enough to get started .. if people need more it's pretty trivial to add whatever 03:27:31 well this is from 2013 heh 03:27:38 much better 03:28:23 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 03:28:34 Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-69-123.hlna.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:12 -!- yates [~user@nc-67-232-27-161.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 03:30:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 03:30:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 03:30:50 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:32:01 Wow, this L-Lisp system creates some rather nice looking plants. 03:32:12 http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/l-lisp 03:32:58 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.69.237] has joined #lisp 03:35:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-219-132.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:36:30 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@bb220-255-148-66.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:37:13 Bike [~Glossina@174-25-57-198.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:00 mordocai` [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has joined #lisp 03:41:01 -!- mordocai` [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42:28 mordocai` [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has joined #lisp 03:43:45 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:53 -!- P1RATEZ [piratez@CPEbc1401e23523-CMbc1401e23520.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:43:57 -!- mordocai` [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:44:56 "Many are from the 90's..." 03:44:59 that's how you know it's lisp 03:46:21 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:48:31 pdk: Yeah, and it's the EIGHTEEN-nineties! ;-) 03:49:02 carved their s expressions out of wood 03:50:07 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:51:13 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 03:52:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@174-25-57-198.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:54:22 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 03:54:41 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-208-193.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:12 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 03:56:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:02:30 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@bb220-255-148-66.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:02:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-208-193.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:02:38 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:04:13 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 04:07:03 dgarrett [~dgarrett@unaffiliated/dgarrett] has joined #lisp 04:09:55 effy_ [~x@123.123.107.137] has joined #lisp 04:11:33 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:13:02 -!- effy [~x@114.252.41.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:13:50 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:15:14 That would be plankalkül 04:15:30 -!- Munksgaard [munksgaard@hub.pronoia.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:15:40 Munksgaard [munksgaard@hub.pronoia.dk] has joined #lisp 04:27:27 slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:05 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-8-215.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:36:00 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:29 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.223.200] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:39:13 CrazyEddy [~semivocal@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:40:27 Pixel_Outlaw, maybe this https://github.com/dto/xelf ? There's no documentation though, since only the authors used it for his own games. http://blocky.io/2x0ng.html 04:41:01 Thanks Petit_Dejeuner, I'll take a look. 04:41:27 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:35 Emacs seems to have opened two sessions for me, I'm Pixel_Outlaw 04:42:50 Er rather Ryan_Burnside is me 04:42:54 Oh, that makes more sense. 04:42:59 -!- Ryan_Burnside [~user@63-153-69-123.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:43:30 If you have any luck with it I'd like to know. I've had the tab open for days and haven't really given it much of a look. 04:44:04 I've grown to enjoy lisp, trying to get documentation for libraries is something else though.. 04:45:33 -!- Pixel_Outlaw [~user@63-153-69-123.hlna.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 04:45:36 indeed. 04:45:46 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:47:15 ecl's a godsend sometimes 04:48:07 karswell [~user@239.54.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:29 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 04:49:10 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:18 jdoles [~jdoles@unaffiliated/jdoles] has joined #lisp 04:51:01 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:33 mordocai` [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has joined #lisp 04:54:14 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:32 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:56:12 -!- kbtr_ [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:56:15 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:57:17 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:27 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 04:59:37 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:06:15 -!- pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:09:29 when loading swank contribs with swank-loader can I pass a list of contribs 05:09:55 (swank-loader:init :load-contribs '(foo)) for example 05:10:15 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 05:10:38 sorry just checked the src, not possible 05:10:45 should have check that first, sorry 05:11:40 ah, there is a list bound to *contribs* 05:14:54 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:33 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 05:22:06 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:22:50 nycat [32003906@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.0.57.6] has joined #lisp 05:26:38 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.69.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:28:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140852 any ideas why it doesn't preform as expected? with sbcl I get an error http://paste.ee/p/HRLlS 05:33:28 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:33:40 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 05:34:07 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-108-137.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:34:15 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:22 Good morning everyone! 05:34:22 beach, memo from mathrick: while I haven't fully finished my getting-employed yet, I'm in a spot where nothing I do will speed things up much, so I was about to start writing the CLIM2 calendar until I got reminded I promised a non-CLIM GUI book before. To that end, feel free to demand results from me, to ensure I don't get too distracted :) 05:35:15 <|3b|> nycat: use KEYWORDP instead of checking result type-of (not causing error, but easier to read) 05:35:25 <|3b|> nycat: and don't use recursion when you mean iteration in CL 05:35:39 nycat: You have an infinite recursion. 05:35:58 nycat: You are calling the function recursively on the same arguments as it received. 05:36:29 mathrick: Around? 05:39:21 nycat: 2nd to last line, you forgot to recurse with (cdr args) 05:39:46 <|3b|> also, you don't need to quote NIL 05:40:14 your terminator on the 'else' side of the 'if' seems off as well 05:40:27 if you know the cdr is nil, you can just return args, as it contains the last element 05:40:58 though you also need to consider the case where you pass in an empty list 05:41:50 It's impressive how many problems there can be per line of code. 05:43:00 *|3b|* thinks the whole function is a bit risky, unless you can be completely sure it will never be called somewhere a keyword is a valid arg1 :) 05:43:00 yeah, it's generally called "learning" :) 05:43:02 Furthermore, the specification is not helpful. It doesn't say what arg1, arg2, etc are and how many there can be, nor does it say whether keywords can appear among the argis. 05:43:22 And it doesn't say whether the entire list can be empty. 05:45:20 yikes, just reading the description sounds scarily fragile 05:49:50 nycat: Are you a beginner programmer? 05:52:44 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:31 QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:47 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:56:50 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:7009:87d7:8b2e:c410] has joined #lisp 05:57:47 beach: its been a while since I've touched lisp 05:59:32 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 05:59:45 -!- dgarrett [~dgarrett@unaffiliated/dgarrett] has quit [Quit: dgarrett] 06:00:51 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-134-69.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:00:52 nycat: I suggest you follow the advice of all the people who gave you remarks by starting with rewriting the specification to be more precise. Then it will be easier to give you more relevant comments. 06:04:32 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-231-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:08:32 -!- sellout- [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:13:35 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:19:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.92.220] has joined #lisp 06:19:24 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@122.170.92.220] has quit [Changing host] 06:19:24 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:20:30 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 06:24:52 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 06:30:14 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:35:50 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:42:18 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 06:42:21 I apologize in advance if some people are getting tired of my repeated message, but here goes: I have added and corrected several pages on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html and as usual I welcome fixes, remarks, improvements, and new material. 06:43:18 GIT repository is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLOS-MOP-HTML . 06:43:24 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@bb220-255-148-66.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 06:51:06 beach: table of contents is bad? Metaobject Initialization Protocols => http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/metaobject-initialization-protocols.html => 404 06:51:29 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:51:47 hmmm, many of the toc links seem wrong. 06:52:12 That page has not been written yet. 06:52:18 ah, ok. 06:52:19 It is work in progress. 06:52:30 ack. 06:52:39 All bad links represent pages that I haven't written yet (unless some don't :) 06:52:53 Maybe you need some way to indicate that on the TOC. 06:53:09 Zhivago: Yes, good idea. 06:53:20 dgarrett [~dgarrett@unaffiliated/dgarrett] has joined #lisp 06:53:41 Or maybe create an empty page for each link with a message in it. 06:53:54 -!- dgarrett [~dgarrett@unaffiliated/dgarrett] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:22 beach: would you prefer an email, github issues, or pull requests? 06:54:36 flip214: Either one is fine. 06:54:59 Eg. In metaobjects.html I'd expect slot-definition to be a link, too 06:55:21 Yes. I haven't figured out how to link to classes. 06:55:49 I think I'll just create a page for each class just like there is a page for each generic function and method. 06:56:14 But the original document does not have entries for classes. 06:56:49 yeah. I just think it looks funny/strange to have a single non-link in a list of 4 links. 06:56:56 I agree. 06:57:07 you could link to http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definitions.html 06:57:38 Yes, I think I will do that. 06:58:09 Indecipherable [~Indy@41.13.140.19] has joined #lisp 06:58:20 "next"/"prev" links would be fine for sequential reading, too. Could you generate them easily? 06:58:48 flip214: I'll give it some thought. Definitely useful, yes. 06:59:47 OK, thanks guys. That will give me enough work for the near future. :) 07:00:23 beach: did you OCR the text? 07:00:36 No. The TeX source is available online. 07:00:40 ie. should I read so carefully as to find typos etc.? 07:00:43 ah, ok. 07:01:04 -!- slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 07:01:05 -!- nycat [32003906@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.0.57.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:01:46 hello:) 07:02:03 so i have me an issue. kinda curious what other way there is to solve this issue. 07:02:06 I could have written a translation program, but then it would have been a major bulk undertaking as opposed to an incremental effort, and I tend to abandon major undertakings before they are done. 07:02:35 not sure if it matters at all which common lisp implementation i am using, but it is CLISP for reference 07:02:59 Hello rk[]. What's the issue? 07:03:08 when i try to evaulate (defun defplayer (name) (eval `(defparameter *player-,(incf *count*) ,name))) 07:03:33 Oh dear! 07:03:35 the result ;; assuming that *count* is defined to an integer ;; 07:03:59 essentially the interpreter puts a space 07:04:02 rk[]: Common Lisp does not do textual substitution. So you can't create variables that way. 07:04:12 betwen - (the result) and * 07:04:30 hmm, that is ashamed as it is seemingly a LISPY thing to do:`( 07:04:34 beach: expect a patch per mail, or a pull request. 07:04:35 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:36 also, as a beginner, forget that EVAL exists. It is very rarely what you want. 07:04:45 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:04:51 flip214: Excellent! Thanks. 07:05:33 tieR0 [~other@188.162.65.52] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 hello 07:05:44 i suppose now that i recall, there is a function that takes a string and converts to a symbol, i could probably build the symbol as a string and then convert 07:05:57 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:05:58 *beach* must now go do some work. 07:06:03 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-108-137.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 07:06:13 how can one specify list of something(like list of integers) as type of struct field? 07:06:24 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:06:30 prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 07:06:47 -!- prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has left #lisp 07:07:56 yeah something like (defmacro defplayer (name) (let ((symbol (intern (format nil "*player-~A*" (incf *count)))) `(defvar ,symbol)) 07:08:30 okay, makes some sense thanks. 07:08:56 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-105-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:08:59 i haven't really familiarized myself with the defmacro construct and that is why i shy'd away and evaluated 07:09:26 i definately enjoy using ` though :) 07:09:59 tieR0: CL doesn't easily have the concept of enforcing the type of something as a homogeneous list 07:10:13 tieR0: why don't you just leave out the type annotation? 07:14:50 mal___: well, i was wondering if it's possible 07:15:49 it is by using DEFTYPE with SATISFIES but it's not going to give you much benefits 07:19:22 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@bb220-255-148-66.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:22:35 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-105-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 07:24:14 tieR0: might be related: http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/seeking_real_life_uses_for_generalized_specializers/ 07:25:43 yeah predicate classes like in some of the earlier experimental languages is one use of those 07:29:55 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:34:42 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 07:35:22 -!- patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has quit [Quit: Exiting HexChat] 07:35:32 -!- Watcher7 [~w@silly.tabby.cat] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42:15 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43:51 leo2007 [~leo@123.119.80.196] has joined #lisp 07:44:43 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 07:45:11 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:46:18 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 07:46:47 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 07:52:21 morning all 07:53:37 jasom: Sorry, I went to bed last night, will catch up with you later today and try to prepare a clean test-case for you. Thanks. 07:54:27 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:55:44 rk[]: ifyou try defun def* eval then you're ready for defmacro, which solves the problems of the former. 07:56:37 tieR0: (defstruct animal (nlegs 0 :type (member 0 1 2 4 6 8))) 07:57:24 clhs member 07:57:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_member.htm 07:57:45 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 07:58:25 pjb: does it work with lists? 07:58:37 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.119.80.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:58:53 "(defstruct animal (nlegs 0..." 0 is clearly not a list. :) 07:59:27 member is more like "should be one of" or sum type 07:59:44 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:59:49 but i need homogenous list 08:01:31 -!- wws [wws@clozure-323C97FB.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout] 08:03:14 -!- wws [~billstcla@p-69-195-52-152.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:04:18 the member type matches values with EQL. 08:04:29 So as long as you can get hold of the same cons cell, it would work. 08:05:32 pjb: ah okay, thanks. 08:05:33 (defparameter *a* (list 1 2 3)) (defparameter *b* (list 1 2 3)) (defparameter *c* (list 1 2 3)) (defstruct strange (l *a* (member #.*a* #.*b* #.*c*))) (make-strange :l *b*) 08:05:41 s/strange/silly/ 08:06:49 Moreover mixing defparameter with #. is fraught with difficulties when file compiling. 08:08:20 pjb: or one can use these defparameters inside eval-when 08:08:46 rk[]: the problem is that types are designed to be compilation-time things, and there's no guarantee that a cons cell allocated at compilation time will be EQL to "itself" when read back in a lisp image ten years later. 08:09:25 pjb: i don't see how member is aplicable here 08:09:31 tieR0: that would be possible with integers, symbols or characters, but it could be useless on cons cells. 08:10:12 should i enumerate all possible integers inside *a* to tell `l' field to be list of integers? :) 08:10:17 tieR0: any type actually would be difficult. You could try a satisfies, but if the function satisfies different values at different times, this breaks the whole type system! 08:10:24 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:10:33 leo2007 [~leo@123.119.85.96] has joined #lisp 08:10:42 Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:50 tieR0: no, understand what I wrote! The values of the types are the first CONS cells bound to *a* *b* *c*! 08:11:01 The car and cdr of those cons cells are totally irrelevant. 08:11:50 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:12:05 If you still want numbers, then you can just write: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defparameter *numbers* '(1 2 3))) (defstruct point (dimensions 1 :type (member . #.*numbers*))) 08:12:52 this has no problem, since the values of the type are numbers, which stay EQL across compilation and file loading, contrarily to cons cells. 08:13:31 Lisp doesn't care how you build the source forms. 08:13:49 -!- Petit_Dejeuner__ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:14:16 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:14:18 tieR0: honestly, if you want haskell you know where to find it. otherwise if it really matters at some point where you use the struct, just check with an (every #'numberp). 08:17:48 rk: Are you familiar with INTERN? 08:18:34 by familiar do you mean using it for the first time about 20 minutes ago? 08:18:50 loz1 [~maxvel@188.225.33.138] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:33 Well, I guess that makes you familiar with it. 08:20:03 1) why do we need intern ? 08:20:07 mal___ had mentioned it in xis suggestion 08:20:23 2) use it 08:21:13 and so when i was refactoring my code i got to the point where i was thinking now how to i convert string to symbol and then i realized oh what is this one function i do not recognize in mal___'s reponse :P 08:21:38 the one quirk i noticed is, it doesn't work proper for me if i don't make sure that the string is in all CAPS 08:21:41 (funcall (intern (string '#:create-server) :swank) :port 4005 :style :spawn :dont-close t) ... 08:22:33 rk[]: you're getting caught by the interesting (locale=.cn) approach of CL to case 08:23:32 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.63.0] has joined #lisp 08:23:43 there is a reason some people here (myself included) have the habit of writing CL primitives in all caps in normal text and not in source code 08:23:45 mal___: hmm, i don't know what precisely that means, but i can make assumptions:P 08:23:55 rk[]: (intern (string-upcase "abc")) 08:24:06 Indecipherable: ah, fancy that. 08:24:33 <|3b|> rk[]: cl is case sensitive, but for mostly historical reasons, converts everything to uppercase by default before doing the case-sensitive stuff 08:24:35 or use #:foo instead of "foo" as string designator. that will even help you with Franz's modern mode 08:24:38 is there a way to force the implementation to lowercase all of its symbol defintions? 08:25:01 <|3b|> so the name of the symbol cl:car is specified to be the string "CAR" in uppercase 08:25:23 <|3b|> uppercasing by default lets us write "car" to mean CL:CAR 08:26:49 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-176-188.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:27:06 <|3b|> it couldn't just specify "car", since existing code assumed "CAR", and part of the point of "common" lisp was to unify the existing lisps at the time, which wouldn't help if old code didn't work 08:27:14 |3b|: ah i see. so i have to rewrite all the CL lib in lowercase 08:27:35 <|3b|> and redefine the spec to use lowercase 08:27:37 you could set your readtable to :invert 08:27:49 <|3b|> the "modern mode" a few lisps have does that 08:28:04 hmm, does CLISP support this? 08:28:16 <|3b|> clisp might be one of the lisps with a "modern mode" 08:28:21 *|3b|* doesn't remember for sure 08:28:30 right-o 08:28:36 thank you all for the insights. 08:28:43 <|3b|> expect random libraries to break though, since they probably assume standard CL rather than not-quite-conformant-almost-cl 08:29:52 yeah that makes sense. i would have to be careful 08:30:08 maybe for a small side project i can play around. 08:30:32 i never liked the "old standard" of converting everything to CAPS 08:30:40 i personally find words in CAPS hard to read for some reason 08:30:46 it confuses my brain... 08:30:56 <|3b|> most people just assume standard CL with the default settings, at most maybe using symbols rather than strings for partial names so people with unusual settings (like modern mode) can try to use it 08:31:07 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:31:33 <|3b|> for example (intern #:foo) instead of (intern "FOO") or (intern "foo") 08:32:14 hmm. 08:32:25 <|3b|> more useful when you are actually creating a symbol from parts, like (intern (format nil "~a~a" #:foo- some-var)) 08:32:41 well that is enough foo and FOO for me for the evening. 08:32:49 right, which is what i was doing earlier 08:32:55 anyhow, thank you all again. 08:33:10 and good night to me and maybe to you all, depending on time zones :P 08:34:11 how to sleep milliseconds in CL ? 08:34:37 (intern (format nil "good~a" (time-of-day (locale *person*)))) 08:35:27 so (sleep X) is sleep x seconds... can probably give .00Y seconds no? 08:35:32 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:36:59 Guthur` [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:37:18 I'd consult the documentation of the implementation for that. fine grained timing for sleep was just not supported on many operating systems when the spec was made and some implementations may never have bothered to update their support 08:37:45 sleep takes non-negative real, so you *should* be able to give you fractional parts 08:38:01 hmm, well you are always at mercy to the scheduler when sleeping on any language 08:38:39 clhs sleep 08:38:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 08:38:41 yeah you can give them but the implementation is free to ignore them 08:38:58 "approximate" being the key word 08:39:13 Petit_Dejeuner [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:07 for example, the POSIX sleep(3) takes seconds as an int, and I can easily see an implementation using that internally 08:41:19 -!- Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:41:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42:46 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 08:46:47 This is exactly the wrong time of day to ask, but does anyone know if the University of Montreal is one of those sprawling institutions with a million, widely dispersed, campuses, and/or can one be confident that the ILC will take place in the central part? 08:48:03 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 08:48:28 *|3b|* would complain about any implementation that didn't handle sub-second SLEEP reasonably 08:50:19 <|3b|> where "reasonably" is something approximating the scheduling granularity of the OS or better 08:52:26 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nagegspywjckmrmn] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:52:45 yeah something like (defmacro defplayer (name) (let ((symbol (intern (format nil "*player-~A*" (incf *count)))) `(defvar ,symbol)) <-- (format nil "~A-~A" (string #:*player) (incf *count) 08:52:58 don't use literal strings to create symbols 08:53:52 with default readtable, your code will create a symbol called |*player-42|, rather than *PLAYER-42 you'd expect (and be able to refer to with *player-42) 08:53:59 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:54:19 with non-default readtables, you will create many exciting bugs with no obvious sources 08:54:51 the rule of thumb is: if you ever pass a literal string to INTERN, it's a bug 08:55:13 |3b|: seems no way to sleep milliseconds in CL ? 09:02:07 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-xdnmwhfzrrtclney] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02:07 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gheoqqobhnbifwql] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:03:05 SBCL seems to support sub-second sleeps 09:03:16 ...on windows at least 09:03:35 I would be greatly surprised if it was not the same on linux 09:04:02 -!- Indecipherable [~Indy@41.13.140.19] has quit [Quit: Rawr.] 09:06:58 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:07:23 IIRC, i ever used "ignore (Unix.select [] [] [] 0.001)" to sleep in OCaml 09:08:17 it used the granularity of the OS 09:10:06 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 09:10:13 Googling "common lisp sleep milliseconds" found nothing :( 09:10:34 see you 09:10:36 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.192.39] has left #lisp 09:13:23 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.29.63] has joined #lisp 09:17:03 rk[]: also see my remarks on INTERN above 09:17:05 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:17:51 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-82-8.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:22:26 -!- tieR0 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connection] 13:16:19 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@65.91.110.226] has left #lisp 13:16:23 francogrex [c14be4fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.193.75.228.252] has joined #lisp 13:16:26 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:17:10 Acherontius [~Mike@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 13:17:31 sbcl is annoying me: the step doesn't step *into* a macro form! 13:17:32 francogrex, memo from pjb: what would you do of a CL:STEP in a batch compiler? 13:18:07 pjb? 13:19:13 well I I said before even without compilations, "step" fails to step into macro forms in sbcl 13:20:09 -!- quasibaba [~quasi@61.12.126.211] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:22:15 -!- Acherontius [~Mike@204.116.186.34] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:23:20 Oejet [~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has joined #lisp 13:24:17 leo2007 [~leo@123.119.85.96] has joined #lisp 13:24:34 PebkacJones [~pebkacjon@ppp121-45-174-218.lns20.syd6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:19 sup? 13:25:56 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14:27:31 Loymoev [~loymoev@host-24-157-66-217.spbmts.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:08 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:29:31 KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has joined #lisp 14:30:23 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:30:54 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 14:31:08 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 14:33:16 francogrex: you can step the macro expansion of macro form if you need to debug it! 14:33:21 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 14:33:59 francogrex: (step (macroexpand '(cond (a 1) (b 2) (c 3)))) 14:35:59 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:36:48 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:41:16 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 14:41:28 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:43:00 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 -!- drmeister 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[~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:34 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-51-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:59:40 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@c-98-238-144-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:34 -!- Stygia [~gmpsaifi@193.104.83.223] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:00:52 -!- sellout- [~Adium@ip-64-134-237-21.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:00:54 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 17:01:33 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:01:45 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.162.9.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:07:05 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:07:31 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 how do I use a custom header in drakma? 17:09:50 <_death> additional-headers 17:10:03 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 17:10:45 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:12:47 pefimo [~pfm@host-62-61-38-133.dynamic.mm.pl] has joined #lisp 17:12:53 hello 17:13:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-51-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.119.85.96] has quit [Quit: goto bed] 17:18:35 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-40-98.w109-223.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:18:49 Good evening everyone! 17:18:54 Hello beach. 17:19:25 hello beach 17:19:57 beach: I read through your clim3 draft a little while ago 17:20:07 fortitude: OK. And? 17:20:19 was curious why you chose to go with raster graphics for your zones, as opposed to the vector-based approach from clim2 17:20:28 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:20:33 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@116-153.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 17:20:58 -!- slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 17:20:59 fortitude: I haven't ruled out incorporating the CLIM II drawing primitives. 17:21:31 -!- loz1 [~maxvel@188.225.33.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:21:47 fortitude: It's just that I haven't needed them yet. 17:21:49 pootler`` [~merv@84.203.201.73] has joined #lisp 17:22:00 KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has joined #lisp 17:22:51 beach: it wouldn't be hard to render a vector-based thing to a raster zone, it just seemed a little cleaner to me to take the vectors as the underlying drawing model 17:23:00 vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:06 not that I really know anything about graphics programming :) 17:23:32 fortitude: Actually, I was surprised that it seemed like I was set on a raster graphics mode. 17:24:00 Oh, I see what you mean now. 17:24:03 n0n0 [~n0n0___@108-65-0-80.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:16 The fact that everything is based on compositing operations. 17:24:19 -!- pootler` [~merv@84.203.201.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:25:09 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:44 fortitude: I haven't actually contemplated what it would be like to base everything on vector operations. This will give me something to think about while I take saunas. 17:26:29 beach: it seems like it would be a matter of rasterizing your zone before you present it to the windowing system (might want a cache in there or something) 17:26:52 beach: might not really be worth it, but you'd get stuff like resolution-independence and zooming for free 17:27:33 Hey, you want really clever vector operations, hack a CRT, or do something clever with an oscilloscope for a display. 17:28:39 fortitude: Sure, I understand the advantages. 17:30:31 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:31:31 OK, sorry for the repeated messages, but there is lots of new stuff on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html with navigation links and a page for each MOP class now. Also lots of bug fixes. As usual, I welcome fixes, remarks, improvements, and new material. 17:32:18 GIT repository is here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLOS-MOP-HTML . 17:32:35 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:32:48 beach: nifty, I've been planning to get AMOP for a while now 17:33:06 beach: I'll give it a read over the weekend 17:33:24 fortitude: That's still worthwhile. These are just the HTML-ized freely available chapters (5 and 6). 17:33:40 -!- hlavaty`` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:16 beach: I'm still going through Keene's clos book, so it'll be a little bit before I could read AMOP anyway 17:35:38 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:41 fortitude: The AMOP book is great, but it is an editorial disaster. I found myself spending more time trying to find the relevant pages than reading what I needed to know. 17:35:46 -!- pefimo [~pfm@host-62-61-38-133.dynamic.mm.pl] has left #lisp 17:36:20 fortitude: The Keene book is good as well, but the examples feel dated. 17:36:38 fortitude: When I have more time, I'll write a modern version of it. 17:37:20 beach: the examples can be a bit simplistic, but I've written some clos stuff already, so it's rather nice to have examples just big enough to demonstrate the behavior 17:37:32 I see, yes. 17:38:34 beach: I think someone asked this a while back, but is there anything I can do to help with the clim3/climatis stuff? 17:39:18 fortitude: Wow, nice offer. I haven't really thought about it. I know mathrick is going to work on it. 17:39:49 fortitude: Allow me to think about it and get back to you. 17:39:55 sure 17:40:58 The main thing I haven't decided is how to incorporate a simplified version of CLIM II presentation types. 17:41:30 The basic output pretty much works. 17:41:39 There are lots of gadgets that need to be written of course. 17:41:46 Oh, menus. 17:41:54 I don't have menus yet. 17:42:41 ... but I probably need to give them more thought before it is reasonable to have anyone else work on them. 17:42:49 beach: have you got a (more-or-less) complete list of the sort of capabilities you'd need to cover (e.g. menus, application-drawn widgets, presentation types) 17:43:10 Not really :( 17:43:27 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:45 might not be a bad place for me to do a little work 17:43:54 surveying existing applications shouldn't be too hard 17:44:01 Sure. 17:44:30 It is probably best if you discuss your ideas with me before doing any substantial work. 17:44:57 ... unless you don't mind risking a lot of wasted time. 17:45:04 ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 17:45:37 beach: come now, surely no time spent doing useful research is 'wasted' 17:45:43 but I see what you mean 17:46:19 You are right of course. I am just being cautious. 17:47:23 One thing that is needed is a bunch of small demo applications that illustrate different zones. 17:47:55 There are some in there already, but they probably no longer work because they were written before I made some significant improvements. 17:49:23 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 17:49:48 this is the stuff in the Applications/ directory? 17:49:53 antoszka: if you can't get a reduced test-case, a log of the wish traffic right before the error may be enough (set *debug-tk* to T) 17:49:53 Yes. 17:50:29 fortitude: And there are a lot of files elsewhere called test 17:51:19 ... most of which very likely no longer work. Certainly, their structure is no longer what it should be. 17:52:36 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 do you have some good exemplars of structure (the calendar, maybe), or a discussion in the manual? 17:53:19 fortitude: The calendar is not too bad. 17:53:41 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:46 jaccas [~pjfcl@bl22-211-110.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 17:53:52 Also Second Climacs (not in the CLIMatis project, but in a separate project). 17:54:11 jasom: Cool, taking note (still busy at work with other stuff now). 17:54:18 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:54:32 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:54:37 fortitude: Second Climacs is what prompted the latest work on CLIMatis, so it is also the application that uses the most recent improvements of CLIMatis. 17:55:12 Second Climacs is how I came across CLIMatis, actually 17:55:20 Ah, OK. 17:55:25 good to know it's relatively up-to-date 17:55:43 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:27 Yeah, this is all the fault of mathrick. He said he was going to work on Climacs starting this year, so I had to hurry to get the basis in a reasonable state, including CLIMatis. 17:57:32 fortitude: You might want to talk things over with him too. He is likely to be the one needing new stuff most urgently. 17:58:08 beach: he mentioned he was going to be doing some UI survey work/book writing the other day 17:58:39 Yes, I saw that. 17:58:57 I'll get in touch with him at some point 17:59:08 OK. 18:02:07 beach: hey! 18:02:12 beach: around now :) 18:02:56 mathrick: Hi. I didn't understand whether you wanted me to demand results related to the book or to CLIMatis/CLIM3/Climacs. 18:03:59 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 18:04:03 fortitude: I am truly sorry that I probably sound unhelpful. I had planned for making things public much later, and I was using GIThub only as my own private backup site. But somehow other people discovered it and became interested. I am having a hard time keeping up, as you may be able to tell. 18:04:21 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:04:32 beach: I can understand how that might happen 18:04:43 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:04:47 beach: hence the offer to help (I have a vested interest in there being a really solid UI framework in common lisp) 18:04:49 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:55 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:59 fortitude: Yes, of course. I understand. I am of course delighted that people are willing to pitch in. I just need to change my strategy from creation to communication now. And I don't quite know in which order to do it. 18:06:19 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:19 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.228] has joined #lisp 18:07:21 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:02 beach: either, but I meant the book 18:10:09 OK. 18:10:12 since I wanted to do it before learning too much about CLI 18:10:13 M 18:10:32 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:10:50 beach: also someone brought up a good point about touch interfaces being an important category today, which will need treatment on its own 18:10:51 mathrick: How are you planning to work on it? GIThub? Public or private? 18:11:05 mathrick: Oh, definitely. 18:11:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:11:25 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:11:28 beach: github, yeah. I will make an org outline and start filling it out with easy parts of the content 18:11:30 mathrick: There is a host of new gestures available on those interfaces. 18:11:45 soryy708 [4fb0002f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.176.0.47] has joined #lisp 18:12:03 -!- soryy708 [4fb0002f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.176.0.47] has left #lisp 18:12:04 mathrick: Public or private? If private, do you want me to have access? 18:13:26 I don't have a preference either way. I just want to know what to expect. 18:14:14 beach: I see no problem with public, I intend it to be a public document afterwards 18:14:26 OK, that simplifies things. 18:14:54 Writing a book in public sounds like a great experiment. 18:15:05 beach: also splittist_ mentioned the very true lack of some sort of "UI taxonomy" kind of thing, so it's filling a niche that actually exists I think 18:15:20 Yes, I read that in the logs. 18:15:58 I overuse "also" 18:15:59 oh well 18:16:00 And I agree. I think I could get excited about researching some sub-topic and helping out with a chapter. 18:17:04 beach: you're definitely more experienced with the CLIM branch of the family, and have more practical experience with *implementing* Emacs UIs, even if I have more defined thoughts on it borne of my frustration with GNU Emacs 18:17:30 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:18:12 mathrick: Sure. What work did you do on Emacs? And which Emacs? 18:18:51 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 18:19:55 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:21:50 mathrick: in terms of UI taxonomies, have you had a look at any of the old research from Xerox PARC or similar? 18:22:17 beach: I'll be physically away from the computer for a while, but I definitely plan on coming back in a relatively short time, depending on how long it takes us to get bored of flying a quadcopter (or kill its battery). I'll get back to you afterwards if you're still here, or otherwise via minion 18:22:21 I remember that the Presentation-Based Interfaces paper drew a distinction between language-based, menu-based, and something else I can't remember 18:22:30 but it was presented as common knowledge, not something new 18:22:42 mathrick: Oh, I am sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote. Disregard my last comment. 18:22:53 darsen [~darsen@91.212.45.69] has joined #lisp 18:23:20 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:23:30 fortitude: Re-reading that paper sounds like a good thing for me to do. 18:23:49 OK, dinner calls. I need to go. I might be back later. 18:27:03 Hi all. Is there a function to get the amount of memory required for defstruct-ed struct? 18:32:33 STilda: not a standard one 18:32:38 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12230499/memory-usage-by-objects-in-common-lisp might be useful 18:37:38 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-stslholxjdxosbwe] has joined #lisp 18:38:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:44:47 -!- anderson [~user@c-67-190-238-152.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:44:55 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:45:11 -!- darsen [~darsen@91.212.45.69] has quit [K-Lined] 18:46:48 Denommus` [~user@179.222.43.37] has joined #lisp 18:49:17 -!- Denommus [~user@179.222.35.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:26 vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has joined #lisp 18:51:35 -!- Denommus` [~user@179.222.43.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:52:30 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:53:00 francogrex [~user@91.182.140.103] has joined #lisp 18:54:00 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:54:29 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 18:54:58 anderson [~user@c-67-190-238-152.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:37 frgo [~frgo@p5491EC65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:17 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 18:58:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:22 -!- vowyer is now known as coredump_ 19:02:03 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:02:23 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:02:29 -!- coredump_ is now known as vowyer 19:02:43 -!- milanj [~milanj@82.117.199.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:02:51 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:02:54 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:03:23 -!- vowyer [~vowyer@186.136.23.25] has quit [] 19:04:01 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:01 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-138-110.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:09 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5491EC65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 19:08:02 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:31 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-40-98.w109-223.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 19:09:49 loz1 [~maxvel@93.100.156.89] has joined #lisp 19:09:59 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:12:36 fortitude: nope, I know very little about PARC and similar, it was one of the things I wanted to research. Do you happen to have any links? 19:13:11 also I guess looking at where the system from the mother of all demos ended would be instructive 19:13:51 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY by Douglas Engelbart, if you don't know it) 19:17:23 Vivitron` [~Vivitron`@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:40 -!- pootler`` [~merv@84.203.201.73] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:18:43 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:51 mathrick: I could have sworn I had some, but I seem to have misplaced them 19:19:27 there's a wiki page that lists language-based, command-line, graphical, menu-driven, natural language, and form-based UIs as some principal categories 19:19:41 link to that wiki please? 19:19:43 I suspect most of them aren't extant, but you might be able to get some hits from google scholar or similar 19:19:48 http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/A-level_Computing/CIE/Computer_systems,_communications_and_software/System_software/User_interfaces 19:19:57 thanks 19:20:24 fortitude: and that's the Presentation-Based Interfaces paper you meant, or is that something separate? 19:20:53 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:20:55 hi, has anybody got any fancy stuff that saves list (source representation) of an anonymous function somewhere for debugging? it is not very informative to see variables holding closures as "compiled function @#$@#$#W$" 19:21:45 mathrick: no, the PBI paper is here: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6946 19:21:45 puchacz: pjb had a system for that 19:22:03 fortitude: great, thank you 19:22:29 pjb: you around? 19:23:15 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:24:30 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:24:37 mathrick: also apparently the wikipedia article for "User Interface" has a much longer list 19:25:47 oh cool 19:26:59 Where's all the excellent research happening nowadays with human-computer interaction? 19:27:23 The days of PARC and Douglas Engelbart are certainly long gone 19:27:34 kristof: welcome to 2010s, time traveller 19:27:51 I think it's considered a problem solved to the "good enough" point 19:28:04 I know there's a lot of stuff going on with computer vision and touch-devices but 19:28:08 because people aren't going to learn another gui paradigm 19:28:20 Those aren't developments in the very PARADIGM of human-computer interaction 19:28:26 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:28 hmmm, I see 19:28:31 dlowe: that, and "the web is the platform" now 19:28:45 mathrick: the web really is a platform, though 19:28:54 which largely consists of warping the idea of presentation independence with "HTML5" things like vibration API 19:29:01 the newest proposed addition 19:29:04 I suppose that counts. Paradigm shift from "I have stuff on my computer" to "I access stuff not on my computer from my computer" 19:29:08 kristof: I know, but it's a crappy one 19:29:25 kristof: also notice the "the" 19:29:51 mathrick: Not necessarily. You've read some of Rob Pike's ideas, haven't you? 19:30:04 This is so off-topic, I apologize. 19:30:28 <_death> puchacz: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ibcl.lisp 19:30:59 kristof: dunno what ideas you mean; the man's had too many ideas for anyone's good :) 19:31:12 _death: thanks, I will read the source 19:31:15 kristof: also stassats is not here, we're safe 19:31:24 mathrick: I think he means Plan 9 19:32:07 weeell, I know Plan 9 in an extremely superficial way. I've never actually used it or any of its spawn 19:32:38 it's founded on the notion of transparent remote access to resources, including stuff like the console and keyboard and so on 19:32:50 reading Pike's ideas could lead to disappointing in most modern technologies, care 19:32:54 but the mode of interaction isn't all that different from traditional unices 19:33:05 I wasn't talking about plan 9 specifically but Plan 9 exemplifies some of those ideas 19:33:11 Plan 9's networking is out of this world 19:33:19 Same with Urbit's 19:33:27 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:33:30 fortitude: yeah, but it doesn't actually work in many instances, because remote things are really different 19:33:37 milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-12-30.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 19:33:38 also files 19:33:49 On Urbit, you can essentially: mount /path/to/some/user's/networked/computer/mountpoint 19:34:07 But by networked, I mean someone's computer on the web, not local network 19:34:27 fortitude: the general idea of not caring about details you can not care about is good, but the devil is in knowing which details those are and when you're allowed to ignore them 19:34:28 mount /unique-name-of-mathrick's-computer/workbench/mathrick 19:35:04 9p still uses ip addresses though 19:35:30 loz1: Right, but urbit's uses unique character-based names (of which there are limited supply) 19:35:54 to take a simple example, just look at the network shares in Windows. Like my dad is supposed to store all his projects on those. Except he doesn't, because in practice he moves between the company office (== nice, fast, usable) and home + VPN (== way too slow for any real use) 19:35:55 loz1: I assume they have a central DNS server that maps names to ip addresses but the idea is still cool 19:36:23 that's an abstraction leaking right through your ideas of "transparent" access 19:38:09 mathrick: but that access is still transparent. Maybe it's slow, but it's there 19:38:37 kristof: how's it transparent if it's qualitatively different based merely on where he sits? 19:38:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:46 it's a different system in those two case 19:38:47 s 19:38:47 mathrick: And to be fair, ISPs have been selling awful bandwidth for years. 19:38:54 that doesn't matter 19:39:03 local resources are different from remote resources 19:39:14 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:39:15 Ok. 19:39:17 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:39:39 it doesn't matter what part of reality is fouling up your nice scheme, you still need to acknowledge the reality as she is spoke 19:39:44 that includes shitty ISPs 19:40:21 but even if ISPs were perfect, sitting on a plane is always going to be different than sitting by a GigE switch one hop away from the storage server 19:40:42 which in turn is going to be different from mounting a local disk 19:40:50 mathrick: your dad beat you when his network storage was slow, didn't he? 19:40:57 heh 19:42:28 I think the point was that you could use the same APIs, not that you could blindly expect the same performance 19:42:39 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:57 ^ 19:43:30 or even make the same guarantees 19:43:53 If you're using a system like plan9, you should be able to handle a "resource disconnected" error on any syscall 19:44:15 I was playing around with plan9 recently. Found myself wishing for a lisp. 19:44:21 (see what I did there?) 19:44:35 so I poked around for a common lisp implementation and didn't see any 19:44:47 seems like it'd be hard to do for any decent compiler 19:44:58 cl for plan9? 19:45:12 I know. How's that for a niche piece of software? 19:45:14 http://www.cse.nd.edu/~dthain/courses/cse598z/fall2004/papers/note-dc.pdf 19:45:15 read this 19:45:32 -!- francogrex [~user@91.182.140.103] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:45:34 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:35 (holy crap it was suddenly so hard to find non-vanished copies) 19:46:29 dlowe: the point is that distributed systems are *inherently* different from local ones, and *inherently* more complex and fragile, and any system which purports to give you transparency will invariably make your life as miserable as the worst case in all cases 19:46:59 I don't mean to say it's never useful to bridge the gap 19:47:07 but pretending the gap isn't there is a folly 19:47:41 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-stslholxjdxosbwe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:47:42 it's there and it has ways to make your life painful 19:48:17 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ymxhknwvuxowejec] has joined #lisp 19:48:19 So the lesson here is: 19:48:27 1. don't annoy mathrick 19:48:40 Abstractions are for when you want to ignore things, and some things you shouldn't ignore (like locality-versus-remoteness) 19:48:57 dlowe: do you think it is hard to port smthing like sbcl to plan9? 19:48:58 kristof: design your systems to be easy to cross the gap when sensible. But don't make it implicit 19:49:09 kristof: yes, exactly 19:49:48 i mean syscalls become easier, not sure about binary files format 19:49:52 that said, I should definitely look into what Plan 9 actually did for networking and file-as-abstraction 19:49:55 Krystof: I was reading Sussman's "The Art of the Propagator" and there were quite a few scenarios where predicate-dispatch and dynamic-type-changing (there is a better word for that) were used. Thoughts? 19:50:00 there are probably interesting lessons to be drawn 19:50:17 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:50:39 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:03 try plan9front instead its maintained 19:51:07 loz1: every syscall would have to be changed 19:51:34 Code_Man`: plan9front is a cool project 19:51:38 plan9front has a linux emu layer someone should try it 19:51:59 nice 19:52:05 what about Inferno & co? 19:52:25 tigranes [~tigranes@205.175.97.115] has joined #lisp 19:52:31 seems to me p9f is much more maintained 19:52:42 but inferno can be ran in userspace linux 19:52:58 i still dont understand why did google hire Pike and didnt take inferno as basic for android 19:53:15 loz1: familiarity, and the fact they didn't start android 19:53:21 they bought out the company that did 19:53:33 which one? 19:53:44 ah, ok 19:53:57 Hi! Is there any way to "kill" a RUN-PROGRAM in SBCL that is :WAITing for the process, but the process is a zombie? 19:54:24 loz1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_os#History 19:54:27 Android, Inc. 19:55:00 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:55:16 i didnt know that, thx 19:55:20 tigranes: that doesn't make sense. "Zombie" is a process that's dead, but hasn't been reaped by the parent 19:55:24 tigranes: um, if you're waiting for the process, the process won't be a zombie 19:55:29 if it's being WAITed on, it can't possibly become a zombie 19:55:51 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ymxhknwvuxowejec] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:56:56 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vgawjkgalndvyynq] has joined #lisp 19:57:19 Sorry, not quite familiar with how this all works. I killed the process from outside, after which it went defunct, and the SBCL function is not returning 19:57:31 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-176-188.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:01 then it's not WAITing for it properly 19:58:35 I can't offer you much practical help in debugging it, but I can tell as much 19:58:46 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 19:59:02 zombie is literally that: a process that died but nobody acknowledged it 19:59:36 I see. It's not a huge deal. This is a process started in StumpWM, so I was hoping I could fix it without having to quit. 19:59:43 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:00:09 tigranes: why bother? 20:00:29 tigranes: it's not that zombie processes eat other processes or something 20:00:34 tigranes: just for reference, a zombie doesn't really influence much unless you're seeing them regularly and accruing. It takes no resources at all besides a tiny structure in the kernel holding the old PID and exit status 20:01:56 Because StumpWM is now not responsive; I can connect through Swank, but the interface is frozen (not updating, not responding to prefix key, etc.) 20:02:27 oh, you mean zombie in its non-technical sense 20:02:48 probably a bad term to use for a program that isn't responding 20:03:04 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 20:03:35 Not quite sure: run-shell-command started a "sudo" process (meant to type gksudo, not sudo), and was waiting for password that I could not supply; I killed the sudo process, which now shows a "defunct" in ps 20:03:57 that's the technical zombie 20:04:03 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:15 So, the "sudo" process started by RUN-SHELL-COMMAND seems to be an actual zombie, but StumpWM is the one that's not responding because of this. 20:04:20 [] in the ps output means a zombie, it will also have Z as the run state 20:04:32 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:04:43 tigranes: that's pretty much a bug in the StumpWM 20:04:56 this is the diagnosis I can safely offer without knowing more about it 20:05:21 Ah :) Good to know. It does seem a bit strange. 20:05:34 there's a fork of StumpWM somewhere 20:05:43 lemme google for it 20:06:00 https://github.com/dss-project/dswm <-- I think this is the one 20:06:41 hmm, but there was another one 20:06:55 strace doesn't help? 20:07:32 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:07:42 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:08:15 mathrick: Are you talking about a fork that also includes some native truetype font support? 20:08:16 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:08:24 ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has joined #lisp 20:08:46 tigranes: yeah, I think so. I have only seen it in passing, never actually used it, so I can't remember the specifics 20:09:11 the problem with stumpWM proper for me was that I couldn't make it have two panels without rewriting some core parts of its logic 20:09:20 so I didn't use it for very long 20:10:27 What do you use instead? 20:11:14 right now simply the default MATE setup (MATE itself being a fork of GNOME 2.x) 20:11:15 rszeno: I'm not familiar with strace. How would I use it? It seems like I'd have to start StumpWM through strace for it to be useful, no? 20:11:23 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:11:30 Ah 20:11:47 and Cinnamon (which is a fork of / rewrite of parts of GNOME 3.x to recreate the 2.x UX) 20:12:07 tigranes: strace can attach to running processes, I think it's -p $PID 20:12:12 no, you can use strace -p pid to see what is doing 20:12:44 Oh, okay. Going to get some info about it, then. Thanks for the tip. 20:13:09 $PID is the current pid of the process shell 20:13:25 heh, I didn't know it was actually set to anything 20:13:32 I meant it as a syntactic metavariable 20:13:37 ps give you the pid of stumbwm 20:14:26 well, $PID is empty here 20:14:29 what shell are you using? 20:14:34 second column in ps awwwux probably 20:14:49 bash keeps its pid in $$ 20:15:23 mathrick, bash, is empty here too 20:15:25 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:15:55 then is unbound, a env variable 20:16:04 -!- ramkrsna [~ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:16:45 Thanks for the help, everyone. I'll play around with strace for a bit. 20:19:07 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:21:34 Vutral [AEkdVdqbCi@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:21:35 -!- gf3 is now known as _1996 20:21:41 -!- _1996 is now known as gf3 20:22:23 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.29.63] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:22:35 -!- tigranes [~tigranes@205.175.97.115] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:23:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 20:23:56 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:23:56 -!- ahungry_ [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:23:56 vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:16 ahungry_ [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:56 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:25:01 -!- ahungry_ [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:17 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 -!- ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:25:37 ahungry [~null@99-40-10-216.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:00 -!- Loymoev [~loymoev@host-24-157-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:29:59 penalti [~penalti@193.28.144.84] has joined #lisp 20:30:27 since structure slot readers might be inlined, does that mean that fmakunbound-ing them and redefining them might not replace the function at all call sites? 20:30:46 yes 20:31:15 I think that's actually what I want, but good to know 20:31:40 kristof: no immediate thoughts. Currently working on implementing a vaguely-efficient prototype/multimethod mini-system 20:32:59 _paul0 [~paul0@189.114.204.173.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:33:11 -!- paul0 [~paul0@179.187.89.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:36:40 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:00 -!- Vutral [AEkdVdqbCi@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:37:15 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:37:15 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 20:37:26 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:39:24 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:45:27 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:48:10 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@108-65-0-80.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:48:30 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:51:11 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 20:51:22 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:00:41 -!- jaccas [~pjfcl@bl22-211-110.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 21:00:57 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:01:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-181-167.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:35 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:44 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@113.Red-88-7-36.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 21:04:27 crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has joined #lisp 21:07:26 -!- penalti [~penalti@193.28.144.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:08:45 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:10:03 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-vgawjkgalndvyynq] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:11:23 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:30 ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has joined #lisp 21:18:28 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:21:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:28 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 21:22:02 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 21:23:11 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 21:25:49 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-abbmyrarjykatbop] has joined #lisp 21:27:41 Krystof, similar to slate-language ? 21:32:36 -!- jbarker is now known as jonb 21:33:18 very similar 21:33:23 if I can work out the semantics 21:33:29 I tried asking on #slate, but... 21:33:54 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6d36b.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:38:53 Is it possible to add compiler hooks in Lisp, or SBCL? 21:39:06 As in, define scenarios in code that should result in a compiler error 21:39:13 Or signal a warning 21:39:33 -!- jonb [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:39:33 modifying compiler behavior entirely is obviously bad but adding errors certainly wouldn't hurt 21:40:03 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:40:26 Example: you release a library, and you want to enforce a particular style of coding or you recognize that the library will simply not work as intended if certain keywords are used. Then you define a subset of functions or symbols that can't interact with your library's functions ever, and the compiler can recognize this 21:40:29 I think that's actually what I want, but good to know <-- there's no guarantee though 21:40:37 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:40:55 you're basically not allowed to assume anything at all about what happens if you modify any part of a struct definition after the fact 21:41:05 If such a thing is not possible then perhaps every such library could also release a code linting too (wouldn't be too hard, since this is LISP) but that seems like a case of reinventing the wheel 21:41:22 So if that really isn't possible for some implementation, then I guess... a neat library to release would be a ... linting suite! :) 21:41:27 Thoughts? 21:41:59 Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has joined #lisp 21:42:18 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:42:26 Is it possible to add compiler hooks in Lisp, or SBCL? <-- compiler macros are one mechanism 21:43:02 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:43:05 mathrick: Ah, so you'd wrap something in (eval-when . . . ) and... wait, how would you walk the following code? 21:43:10 I'm not sure if the standard mandates they be invoked though 21:43:34 clhs 3.2.2.1 21:43:35 Compiler Macros: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bba.htm 21:43:44 Ok. 21:44:17 kristof: lambda-clippy 21:44:31 heheheh 21:46:52 puchacz: one could indeed, extend cl-stepper to be able to print closures nicely. 21:47:23 wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has joined #lisp 21:49:09 kristof: I know that series does something to hook in and warn you 21:49:21 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:49:33 zophy_ [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:36 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.228] has joined #lisp 21:54:25 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:09 kristof: macros and compiler-macro are the compiler hooks provided by CL. 21:55:10 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 21:55:38 mathrick: it actually turns out it's the exact opposite of what I want, so :/ 21:56:05 -!- gmdjm [~djm@ip70-185-115-2.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:07 fortitude: if you need redefinitions, DEFSTRUCT is not what you want 21:56:14 (define-function-that-respect-company-rules fact (x) (if (< x 1) 1 (* x (fact (1- x))))) --> whatever error you want. 21:56:26 mathrick: the trick is that somebody else used a struct where they really should have used a class 21:56:32 yell at them 21:56:33 and I was hoping I could shim in a class anyway 21:56:48 mathrick: I plan to, but waiting for a patch to get into quicklisp might be quite a while 21:57:13 ~/quicklisp/local :) 21:57:20 (I get your pain though) 21:57:26 this is true, I forgot about that 21:57:39 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:58:11 ~/quicklisp/local is the proof Xach loves us and wants us to be happy 21:58:13 or something 21:59:10 Are there any common lisp implementations that provide a call/cc? 21:59:44 or some other way of saving and restoring an execution context 21:59:47 no, but there's cl-cont for instance 21:59:58 most of the time, you don't want unbound continuations anyway 22:00:03 -!- rpg_ [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:00:04 rpg [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has joined #lisp 22:00:21 mathrick: except when I do 22:00:29 downside: cl-cont relies on transforming the code, so it does Very Bad Things to debuggability 22:00:40 jasom: "most of the time" 22:00:59 Oleg has a paper which shows that most of the time is more or less always I think 22:01:08 but it's an Oleg paper, it's not exactly accessible 22:02:00 Oleg's papers encourage the use of delimited continuations, I believe 22:02:21 And I also believe that cl-cont is a library for implementing delimited continuations, not undelimited ones. But I could be wrong in both respects. 22:03:15 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:18 mathrick: I also can't (mapc (lambda (x) .. (call/cc ..))...) 22:03:33 kristof: that's exactly what I tried to convey 22:03:37 though the webpage says that's "on the roadmap" 22:03:55 mathrick: I'm sorry, I misread. 22:04:14 has there been any interest on the part of CL implementors in implementing continuations (of any kind)? 22:04:19 mathrick: don't worry, I understood you correctly 22:04:30 it's my impression that it makes things rather difficult, but it would be really nice to have them... 22:04:33 ...I'm not smart enough to be able to quickly grok any particular piece of code that explicitly uses shift and reset. 22:04:38 jasom: I'm not sure what that MAPC is meant to accomplish 22:04:52 kristof: I don't really understand shift/reset at all 22:05:00 never spent enough time on grokking it 22:05:23 mathrick: There's a really good paper about type-annotating delimited continuations in Scala, if you ever have the time 22:05:34 mathrick: So that only SOME code is transformed according to its type signature, and not others. 22:05:45 ew scala 22:05:52 Scala is not the language you want to use 22:05:56 mathrick: the best description I ever heard of it (maybe by oleg?) was like system calls 22:06:06 Scala is the C++ of JVM 22:06:08 I love all my functional programming brethren :3 22:06:12 one of the operators suspends and returns to some top level, the other resumes with a value 22:06:44 mathrick: you can't pass functions with call/cc as callbacks into standard lisp functions 22:06:49 fortitude: humm, I re-read shift/reset in terms of call/cc every time I encounter them, but it never seems to stick 22:07:02 jasom: oh, that's what you meant 22:07:10 yeah, it can't really do that 22:07:17 it's a part of being delimited 22:07:25 well, no 22:07:44 mathrick: no, it's still lexically delimited, but the standard functions would have to be rewritten in CPS 22:07:49 it's just that the delimiting is sort of imposed by other functions not having been transformed 22:07:50 mathrick: to be honest, I don't understand call/cc all that well myself, but the syscall model works pretty well for me 22:08:08 (* 2 (reset (+ 1 (shift k (k 5))))) ;; Quick! What does this do? 22:08:20 fortitude: I have a relatively good grasp of call/cc, ie. I can reconstruct what it means in my head when I think about it for a while 22:08:50 nothing that allows me to read call/cc-using code fluently and without pauses though 22:09:17 kristof: shift/reset tend to be confusing when used directly, but with a little bit of wrapping they can be quite clean 22:09:28 green-threads had a macro to do something like that with cl-cont at one point, I think 22:09:46 fortitude: Right, but I was just pointing out how terrifying that looks 22:12:42 mathrick: but that's essentially the limitation of cl-cont; you can't use huge swaths of lisp even if all you need are delimitted continuations 22:12:53 mathrick: Reset marks a point on the stack that you can shift to. Shift takes two arguments; the variable that represents the location on the stack to jump to, and the code you want to construct with that stack-point-marker 22:12:57 and the only fix is for cl-cont to rewrite all of those parts of lisp 22:13:27 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-abbmyrarjykatbop] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:14:04 kristof: right, now to read up on what that actually means in practice :) 22:14:37 CADD_ [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 22:14:58 kristof: after reading the first 3 pages of Oleg's shift/reset tutorial, I would say that your example returns 12 22:15:13 link please? 22:15:14 mathrick: (reset (+ 1 (shift marker (marker (marker (marker 4)))))) 22:15:27 -!- wheelsucker [~user@168.114.240.151] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:15:41 jasom: Correct! 22:15:47 mathrick: http://pllab.is.ocha.ac.jp/~asai/cw2011tutorial/main-e.pdf 22:15:56 thanks 22:16:17 mathrick: You can sort of mentally "continuation-expand" what I just wrote into the following code (with pseudo-syntax to represent the stack marker) 22:17:09 mathrick: [+ 1 [+ 1 [+ 1 4))) 22:17:33 jonb [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 22:18:14 -!- milanj [~milanj@cable-178-148-12-30.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:18:16 the "[" was the place where we marked with reset. When the code hits shift, it will basically run through the code and start constructing a new stack to calculate, removing each marker in the code argument at a time 22:19:47 (reset (+ 1 (shift m (m (m (m 4)))))) -> [+ 1 (reset (shift m (m (m 4))))] -> [+ 1 [+ 1 (reset (shift m (m 4)))]] -> [+ 1 [+ 1 [+ 1 4]]] 22:20:53 Tordek [~tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-iljqxqvovknkytzb] has joined #lisp 22:22:27 vert2 [~vert2@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-rjmvygfnimrtqxqy] has joined #lisp 22:23:47 -!- CADD_ [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:26:11 kristof: that's kidn of neat, and my intuition tells me that you can't implement it with call/cc without doing code-rewrite 22:27:17 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:28:04 jasom: Oleg's paper shows you can express call/cc in term of delimited continuations, but not the other way around 22:28:19 so delimited continuations are actually strictly more powerful 22:29:20 mathrick: so far oleg's stuff is quite readable, except for the fact that he uses haskell a lot, and I do'nt know haskell 22:29:28 http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 22:30:31 pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:12 puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:31:56 jasom: btw, it's the paper I meant. "Undelimited continuations by themselves seem to have no practical use: at least noone has shown me a practical application of just call/cc, which I have been asking for a long time. To my knowledge, in all practical programs call/cc emulates, to the extent possible, some sort of a delimited control operation, often as simple as exceptions or generators." 22:32:38 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:34:54 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 22:34:56 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 22:37:15 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:41:27 -!- Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has quit [Quit: Yanez] 22:41:43 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 22:44:00 jasom: You know lambda, you know lisp, so you know most of Haskell. 22:44:38 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:44:43 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:56 -!- Tordek [~tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-iljqxqvovknkytzb] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:45:46 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-yhdomayvxokcwuyo] has joined #lisp 22:45:50 jasom: In practice, the defining features of Haskell that separate it from Lisp are its type system (which is easy to understand), monads (less-so), and nonstrict-evaluation (NOT lazy in particular, but nonstrict). Other than those things, it's easy to look at Haskell code and know what's going on. 22:47:52 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 22:50:16 pillton [~user@124-171-224-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 22:51:34 Shapeshifter [~Shapeshif@unaffiliated/shapeshifter] has joined #lisp 22:53:38 Hi. I'm attempting to run swank doing 'urxvt -e sbcl --load /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/start-swank.lisp' but that fails after some compilation with "Error while compiling /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/contrib/swank-asdf.lisp: The loaded code expects an incompatible layout for class SB-PRETTY:PRETTY-STREAM". Further up there are some more warning about "WARNING: change in instance length of class PRETTY-STREAM"... 22:54:16 I tried googling for solutions but I'm not able to figure this out. 22:54:41 Sounds like you've updated SBCL since that fasl was compiled. 22:55:57 Mh, all my packages are up to date. I just noticed that swank runs fine when started using clisp instead of sbcl. 22:56:06 nyef: what should I do? 22:58:28 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: going home] 22:58:40 That I couldn't tell you. I know next to nothing about the system you're using, I can see that the source code is being stored in a common location but I don't know where the fasls are, nor if a regular user is able to rebuild them. 22:59:22 About all I can do is recognize the error message and likely immediate causes for it. 23:00:29 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:02:00 kristof: in practice, it's the syntax of haskell that throws me off 23:02:06 Shapeshifter: in practical terms, it means you have a .fasl somewhere that's messing things up, or alternatively, built and dumped an image which included an older SWANK version 23:02:48 jasom, kristof: same here. I technically know haskell (ie. did a smallish uni project in it some years back), but I still don't find it readable, and especially not easy to reason about 23:05:34 mathrick: SB-PRETTY:PRETTY-STREAM wouldn't change its instance length if the SBCL version didn't change. 23:05:48 true 23:06:10 jasom: you mean the syntactic heroin? :) 23:06:11 you can't load an image built by a different SBCL version, can you? 23:06:31 Well I got to admit I understand none of this, since I just got started with list 30 minutes ago. Maybe I'll try this quicklisp thing. 23:06:40 s/list/lisp/ 23:07:25 kristof: yeah, that, plus the syntax for types, which stylistically tends to be written with minimal parenthesization which makes reading things like "a function that takes a function that returns a function that thakes a x that returns y that returns a function that returns z" challenging 23:08:10 I ended up liking Lisp's syntax even though I came from Haskell. 23:08:21 The same type written with the Shen syntax and the haskell syntax is always more readable in shen 23:08:31 Debateable. 23:08:44 Shapeshifter: how did you install your swank? 23:08:45 It's an aesthetic choice. 23:08:59 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:09:08 Shapeshifter: swank/slime that is 23:09:31 jasom: what's Shen? 23:09:45 mathrick: You don't know what Shen is?! 23:09:53 Typed Lisp 23:09:57 Pretty neat stuff 23:10:02 optionally typed lisp 23:10:27 and more oriented towards functional programming 23:10:41 You forgot about the multiplatform nature 23:11:05 I hesitate to say it's performant on any of them but there's an implementation for SBCL, JVM, .NET, python VM, . . . 23:11:15 Presumably to spread Lisp as far as the eye can see. :P 23:11:20 kristof: indeed I don't 23:11:29 and have never seen it mentioned even 23:11:36 -!- pillton [~user@124-171-224-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 23:11:40 mathrick: blame the "on-topic" police here 23:12:26 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:31 mathrick: it came with vim-slimv. In any case, loading the swank installed by quicklisp works fine, so I'll just use that, for now. 23:13:35 thanks for the help. 23:13:41 oooh, the Qi successor 23:13:46 that explains a lot 23:14:42 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:14:45 Shapeshifter: yeah, usually quicklisp is what you want. Any system-packaged lisp tends to introduce problems sooner than later, at least on Debian 23:14:59 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZZ] 23:15:09 it's a bummer 23:15:19 same story with haskell 23:15:29 I've given up on "system-packaged" lisp libraries. Lisp doesn't have enough distributed applications to justify shipping the libraries, too, and people inevitably just slack on updating libraries. 23:15:58 I'm irritated enough that Archlinux's SBCL wasn't updated for two whole months after the October release :P 23:17:02 We used to have a [haskell] repository for Archlinux but eventually the library problem caught up to everyone and people just reverted to using cabal. Which is alright, because there's no advantage to system-installed libraries in Haskell's case, or Lisp's. 23:18:00 but cabal is pretty terrible. 23:18:19 oh well, it can't all be great. 23:18:33 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:19:04 How is cabal different from quicklisp? 23:19:18 kristof: biggest reason to still have lisp stuff in the package system in gentoo appears to be maxima 23:19:21 kristof: I don't know much about quicklisp, I just "quickloaded" my first "system"... 23:19:37 and stumpwm I suppose 23:19:42 Besides the fact that quicklisp integrates really well with the dynamic lisp environment, but that's a dynamic environment problem, not a quicklisp-versus-haskell one 23:19:49 jasom: stump sucks 23:19:58 kristof: never used it 23:20:06 I've been thinking about the possibility of building debian packages around a quicklisp dist, for use at the dayjob. 23:20:25 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 23:20:26 jasom: My days with XMonad spoiled me. Someone write dynamic tiling schemes for Stump, saner keybindings, and integrate the unicode-branch :P 23:20:33 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:20:53 nyef: Are custom dists supported yet? 23:21:12 As I said, "thinking about". As in, "haven't done anything yet". 23:22:04 Right now I'm not even in a position to look at upgrading to a newer quicklisp dist, simply because of the amount of stuff that could break. 23:22:43 nyef: so a .deb that basically packages quicklisp/ ? 23:23:23 More using the quicklisp dist data to build debian packages of the software, but yeah. 23:24:48 Right now I don't even really have the time to figure out the full scenario, let alone decide if it's worth implementing. 23:24:55 I like stumpwm. It's unpolished in some areas but what really mattered to me was having a WM I could customize in Common Lisp 23:26:59 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:27:17 stumpwm is truly the freeballin' window manager 23:27:27 feel the breeze 23:28:59 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:29:42 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Iceape 2.7.12/20130119143918]] 23:30:14 -!- loz1 [~maxvel@93.100.156.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:32:51 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:35:14 Vivitron`: Can't remember who said this in here, but I do recall someone saying "Stump... can't remember the last time I said 'wow, I wish I could hotload code into my window manager while it's running and extend it!'" 23:35:53 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:35:59 to be fair how many of us thought that at all with programming anything before learning about lisp 23:36:07 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:38:30 kristof: I can't remember the last time I wanted extra distance between myself and a lisp prompt;) 23:40:05 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 23:43:04 *jasom* uses sawfish, so I can hotload code into my window manager while it's running and extend it 23:43:33 but in a bastard dialect of lisp based on elisp with some scheme features added 23:43:34 I use GNOME, so I can just... do stuff... *shrug* 23:45:12 kristof: sawfish used to be the default wm for gnome, before metacity 23:47:06 -!- rpg [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 23:48:37 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@116-153.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:18 I thought sawfish was scheme 23:50:22 ... I'm sure there's a joke about "cunning" available right now, but I couldn't be bothered figuring out how to express it properly. 23:50:35 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:50:53 mathrick: it started out as a lisp-1 dialect of elisp, it is now nearly a superset of r4rs I think 23:51:09 huh 23:51:57 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:54:02 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 23:54:59 -!- crixus [~Rob@69.77.176.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:57:45 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]