00:04:17 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.117.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:08:39 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:10:38 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 00:12:51 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 00:14:32 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:16:40 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:17 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:07 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.36.242] has joined #lisp 00:22:43 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:23:00 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:05 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-153-186.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 00:25:58 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-236.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:28:11 -!- ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 00:28:46 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:36 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-153-186.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32:59 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:10 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Quit: percopal] 00:34:49 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:36:46 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.102.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:38:16 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: lifetime vanished by nuclear meltdown] 00:38:22 -!- cjwelborn_ is now known as cjwelborn 00:44:24 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-232-81.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:44:27 -!- quazimod1 [~quazimodo@d110-33-232-81.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:13 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:45:21 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 00:45:38 quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-232-81.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:48:07 drl [~lat@125.167.129.137] has joined #lisp 00:50:04 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:50:30 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 00:52:23 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@d110-33-232-81.bla801.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:54:05 ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 00:55:34 -!- ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:12 Corvidium [~cosman246@97-113-18-62.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:51 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:47 ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 01:03:00 -!- ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Client Quit] 01:04:52 -!- jsambroo_ [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:05:10 ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 01:07:03 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:07:06 -!- ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Client Quit] 01:07:21 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:07:48 ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 01:07:49 -!- ubikation [~user@c-67-168-252-238.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:28 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-172-11-236-194.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:12:38 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-246.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:59 -!- ktx [znc@unaffiliated/ktx] has quit [Quit: " "] 01:17:55 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 01:19:55 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:22:21 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:22:59 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.129.137] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:25:36 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 tokenrov1 [~julian@209-197-140-2.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:36 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 01:31:17 -!- tokenrove [~julian@209-197-143-117.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:31:49 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:33:38 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 01:35:17 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:11 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:36:30 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:59 -!- Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:40:46 Xach [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has joined #lisp 01:40:56 brandonz [~brandon@199-241-200-45.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:23 axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:45 holycow_ [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:12 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 01:52:40 -!- holycow_ is now known as blahalskdjf 01:52:58 -!- blahalskdjf [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:52:58 blahalskdjf [~holycow@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has joined #lisp 01:53:26 -!- blahalskdjf [~holycow@pdpc/supporter/bronze/holycow] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:55:07 -!- axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 01:56:12 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:56:26 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vbbgyhtcaezdmedq] has joined #lisp 01:56:27 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:14 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has joined #lisp 01:58:51 ktx [~ktx@unaffiliated/ktx] has joined #lisp 01:59:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:02:08 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:22 nyef [~nyef@pool-108-7-220-91.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:32 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 02:05:26 jbarker_ [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 02:05:28 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:34 holycow_ [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:52 -!- jbarker_ [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:09 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 02:07:18 -!- holycow_ [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:08:59 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 AntiSpamMeta2 [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 02:10:27 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Killed (sendak.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 02:10:27 -!- AntiSpamMeta2 is now known as AntiSpamMeta 02:11:07 OldContr` [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 02:11:51 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:12:04 Praise- [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 02:12:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:45 jasom_ [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:54 Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/session] has joined #lisp 02:14:08 galdor_ [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 02:14:21 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-157-59.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:14:23 antoszka_ [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 02:14:25 froggey_ [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has joined #lisp 02:14:26 ivan\_ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 02:14:39 rotty_ [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #lisp 02:14:54 stokachu_ [~stokachu@cypherbook.com] has joined #lisp 02:14:58 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:14:59 -!- galdor [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:14:59 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:00 -!- Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:01 -!- _death [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:02 -!- stokachu [~stokachu@cypherbook.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:02 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-59.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:02 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:03 -!- froggey [~froggey@unaffiliated/froggey] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:03 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-jcftxmhjmnmifgcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:04 -!- OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:05 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:15:06 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:15:06 -!- Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/session] has quit [Changing host] 02:15:06 Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dpfoudfwegeykbgh] has joined #lisp 02:15:07 -!- stokachu_ is now known as stokachu 02:15:07 _death` [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:15:26 -!- _death` is now known as _death 02:15:48 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:16:43 -!- ivan\_ is now known as ivan\ 02:17:32 -!- JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 02:17:44 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:19:05 -!- rk[wrk] is now known as rk[] 02:19:09 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:31 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 02:21:35 heddwch_ [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 02:21:54 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 02:21:54 -!- heddwch_ is now known as heddwch 02:22:19 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 02:22:55 -!- segv- [~mb@g225018140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:23:05 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has joined #lisp 02:23:23 qiemem [uid14911@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-htlsrtzoozahipkg] has joined #lisp 02:26:28 axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:31 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-15-111-28.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:30:44 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:33:34 crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 02:35:58 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:24 -!- brandonz [~brandon@199-241-200-45.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:45 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:50 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:50:23 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 02:50:58 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 02:51:04 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51:38 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:02 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:59 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:06:01 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:49 Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@121.50.21.19] has joined #lisp 03:11:02 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@121.50.21.19] has quit [Client Quit] 03:14:02 -!- JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:21:23 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:23:54 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-vbbgyhtcaezdmedq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:25:29 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:11 -!- axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:26:46 axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:08 jasom: series is really nice, but you can easily get caught up in trying to extend it to cover things it doesn't come with out of the box, and it suffers a bit from never having really been popular afaict. 03:31:55 tokenrov1: It's a good way to write code your co-workers cannot read. I've done that and caused much wailing and gnashing of teeth. 03:32:49 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 03:32:55 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:34:00 noon 03:34:03 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has joined #lisp 03:34:41 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:35 -!- ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:36:45 ggrant` [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:12 -!- axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:39:29 -!- axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 03:39:59 axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:26 rpg: yeah, if you aren't working with people who love a bit of APL, they may not appreciate it. 03:40:38 sellout-1 [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:39 -!- tokenrov1 is now known as tokenrove 03:41:32 -!- sellout- [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:49 axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:01 -!- axion_ [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:42:07 Also, if you use it across function call boundaries -- e.g. to provide a generator, it performs badly. The optimizations all are done in macroexpansion, so are myopic. 03:44:32 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@97-113-18-62.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:45:07 yeah. that's where i sometimes find myself spending all my time writing optimizable-series-functions trying to cover everything. 03:46:48 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:56 -!- blacklab` [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:50:20 Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has joined #lisp 03:55:38 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 03:56:43 tokenrove, hi! 03:58:12 Maybe you really want to write combinators in Haskell. 04:01:50 -!- JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:01:59 JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has joined #lisp 04:03:39 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:08:40 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:43 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-134-84.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:09:55 Good morning everyone! 04:12:49 Hello beach. 04:14:02 Hey nyef. Haven't seen you for a while. 04:14:25 Joreji [~thomas@158-142.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 04:14:33 Same here. I haven't seen you for a while. 04:14:50 True. I won't be here as often as before. 04:14:54 Admittedly, that's at least partly on me, being mostly off IRC for quite a while. 04:15:19 Yeah, me too. 04:16:39 So, how's 2014 been treating you? 04:16:57 So far so good. Lots of work on Lisp. You? 04:17:22 lisp is a cool language guys 04:17:47 Same. There was an inquiry into SBCL on ARM again which got me interested again. 04:18:12 I see. 04:18:58 It turns out that when I last touched the code, in 2012, I was very close to having %PRIMITIVE PRINT (SHOW) working. 04:19:17 So are you thinking of working on it again? 04:19:18 And I just got ALIEN-FUNCALL working today, so I'm taking a little break. 04:19:28 Nice. 04:19:53 antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-69-26.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 04:20:26 Mmm. In once sense I'm kicking myself for letting it lie fallow for more than a year when it was THAT CLOSE. 04:20:56 Yes, I see what you mean. It happens to me all the time. 04:21:22 Too many projects. Hard to multitask. It's probably inevitable. 04:21:30 On the other hand, over the past year or so I've built up a list of Things That Suck in the current lisp world, and I'm planning to Do Something About It. 04:21:46 Oh, nice! I would like to see that list sometime. 04:23:01 Are you planning to deal with all of it by yourself or asking for help? 04:23:08 I'm not sharing it directly, it's more a call to action for myself at the moment. Starting with CL+SSL. 04:23:21 Fair enough. 04:23:56 I'm half tempted to write a screed entitled "free lisp: good news, bad news, and how to write a homage to a classic lisp article". 04:24:11 Heh. 04:24:16 That might be the alcohol talking, though. 04:24:49 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 04:28:04 So by "Things" that suck, you mean existing software that needs to be improved? 04:28:16 For the most part, yes. 04:28:51 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:29:50 Or simply figuring out what I'd like to have had instead, and writing a library to do the job. 04:30:02 Sure. 04:30:24 I like the idea Fare (I think it was) had a while ago to merge different partial libraries. Not sure it's doable though. 04:30:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 04:30:57 Yeah, that was Fare. 04:31:06 I'm not sure it's doable, either. 04:32:03 for which libraries? 04:32:12 Hello Fare. 04:32:13 sometimes, the correct merge is: pick one, drop the other. 04:32:15 nyef: hi 04:32:23 have you seen asdf/package-system ? 04:32:28 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:53 nyef: or, for the matter, the moll runtime: https://github.com/fare/moll 04:34:23 I haven't looked into asdf/package-system in any seriousness simply because quick-build works well enough for me at the moment, and I don't know that I've heard of moll yet. 04:34:48 quick-build has the same bug as asdf1&2 04:34:58 it doesn't check transitive timestamps. 04:35:09 I am looking forward to Saturday, though. 04:35:22 are you coming? 04:35:26 -!- karswell [~user@239.54.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35:29 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:35:30 I hope to. 04:35:32 :) 04:35:57 I am, at least, within the range of the T system this weekend. 04:36:08 I like quick-build enough that I wrote a clone for it that is robust and portable, on top of ASDF. 04:36:21 karswell [~user@239.54.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:23 -!- ggrant` [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:36:37 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:36:38 actually, I already liked the idea with faslpath, but never did anything about it. 04:36:50 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-131-246.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:37:09 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:37:15 Mmm. WHN said something similar in build-order.lisp-expr in SBCL. 04:37:39 asdf/package-system is just like quick-build, except bloated. And interoperating with asdf, and robust. 04:37:50 ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:38:19 Yeah, that's the thing. I try not to interact with ASDF directly. 04:38:54 I wonder if it's possible to use asdf-dependency-grovel to transform build-order.lisp-expr into an asdf system. 04:39:05 I interact with quicklisp using QL:QUICKLOAD, then dump a core. And then I load that core and work from there. 04:39:29 That's a frightening thought. 04:39:51 nyef: good for you if you can. but asdf/package-system allows for interaction both ways — so regular asdf libraries can e.g. depend on lisp-interface-library (that uses package-system) 04:40:16 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:40:27 Mmm. At which point I might look into it, once I have something that I want to package for other people to use. 04:40:48 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 04:40:56 I had discussions with the mocl guy and rpg about making asdf more cross-compilation friendly. 04:41:04 (Such as what might be CL*SSL, or lh-ssl, whichever I end up going with as a project name.) 04:41:31 CL*SSL is the WAL*MART of CL SSL libraries. 04:41:31 another wrapper for openssl? 04:42:07 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:42:28 Fare: Given the two massive bugs that I've encountered with CL+SSL? Hell yes. 04:42:59 (Well, bugs might be a strong word, but still. I'm totally Not A Fan.) 04:43:46 "Let's stop a READ-SEQUENCE operation partway through because we have to wait for more data, great idea!" and "how do we know when the remote end closed the connection?" 04:43:54 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:44:07 a cross-compiling asdf is conceivable, and can bring most (all?) of the benefits of xcvb, but is a lot of work, then may require updating extensions to take advantage of it. 04:44:17 what massive bugs? 04:44:26 Xach: If you're paying attention: Those are specific complaints. 04:44:30 I haven't had deep interaction with cl+ssl 04:44:50 nyef: I didn't even send my snarky remark! 04:45:21 And I didn't even mention the documentation issue this time. 04:45:42 nyef: that might explain why our servers were sometimes getting hosed on ssl 04:46:16 MoALTz_ [~no@host81-153-177-191.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:37 AntiSpamMeta2 [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has joined #lisp 04:46:37 -!- AntiSpamMeta [~MetaBot@AntiSpamMeta/.] has quit [Killed (hobana.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))] 04:46:37 -!- AntiSpamMeta2 is now known as AntiSpamMeta 04:47:23 Mmm. I was getting a reliable error with postmodern trying to pull back a megabyte-plus blob from the DB, about a bogus, typically non-ASCII, protocol message, but it varied by which row I was querying. 04:47:32 blacklab` [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:37 ASau` [~user@p5083D4B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:48:20 JuniorRoy1 [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has joined #lisp 04:48:55 My new years resolution this year might have been 1400x1050, but I also decided to start trying to fix the various things that cause me problems in trying to use Lisp in an actual business situation. 04:49:18 heddwch_ [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 04:49:18 ... and then I promptly got sideswiped by someone inquiring about SBCL on ARM. 04:49:30 tokenrov1 [~julian@209-197-140-2.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:46 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:49:46 -!- heddwch_ is now known as heddwch 04:49:51 sellout- [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:52 patrickwonders_ [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:00 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:50:12 I also decided something similar to what Krystof decided: write more. 04:50:17 galdor [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has joined #lisp 04:50:25 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.154.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 04:50:25 Beetny_ [~Beetny@ppp118-208-5-155.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:26 Joreji_ [~thomas@158-142.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 04:50:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 04:50:43 jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:55 antgreen__ [~green@dsl-173-206-69-26.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 04:50:57 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:14 -!- jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51:28 nyef: Do you like to write? I mean, to some, it's just painful. 04:51:32 jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:46 -!- jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:52:41 I like to write on a small scale. Article or essay length, not book length. But that might be lack of experience at writing at longer lengths. 04:53:28 They involve different skills. 04:53:37 jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:43 I like to write, but I can't sustain focus for a large endeavor. 04:54:05 -!- jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:08 The_third_man [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:10 Fare: Excellent! I SO wish for a manual for ASDF that mere mortals can understand. 04:54:16 I have several long essays underway that I've stopped for lack of motivation on some parts of them. 04:54:29 beach: sorry, I'm leaving ASDF. 04:54:34 jack_rabbit__ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:35 :( 04:55:00 beach: but before I do, I am going to give an online walkthrough or two of ASDF, so the next people around can maintain it and write the manual. 04:55:12 Yes, I saw your message. 04:55:22 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-69-26.tor.primus.ca] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- Joreji [~thomas@158-142.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- JuniorRoy [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@75-166-123-23.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-157-59.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:22 -!- galdor_ [~galdor@78.193.58.122] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- tokenrove [~julian@209-197-140-2.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.154.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D4B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-5-155.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:23 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:24 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@c-98-238-144-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:24 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-ydnxmipcbiksxjlw] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:24 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:24 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:25 -!- MoALTz [~no@host81-153-177-191.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:25 -!- ttm [~The_third@irc.tocards.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 04:55:28 -!- patrickwonders_ is now known as patrickwonders 04:55:28 -!- Beetny_ is now known as Beetny 04:55:28 I might be interested, in which case I will send a message as requested. 04:55:44 beach: you look like you could easily be one of the leading experts on asdf already. 04:55:47 Fare: any particular reason for leaving it, lack of personal resources (time)? 04:55:57 Guthur: I'm trying to disengage from CL. 04:56:28 "CL is like Democracy. It sucks, but it sucks less than the alternatives." 04:56:33 Develop my own dialect, bootstrapping from Racket (or Gerbil?) using maru-like techniques. 04:56:37 Fare: That would take some effort on my part. 04:56:57 beach: very little, after I quit. 04:57:12 harish [~harish@119.234.158.39] has joined #lisp 04:57:12 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-59.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:57:12 Ishpeck [~ishpeck@72.250.218.116] has joined #lisp 04:57:12 pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:25 I'll think about it. 04:57:29 Fare: oh, what causes you to consider CL or any other existing dialect inappropriate for your needs? 04:57:34 Fare: Have you considered starting from Factor instead? 04:57:36 it you care elaborate 04:57:37 -!- ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:57:55 -!- jack_rabbit__ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:58:42 Guthur: my "needs" include being able to write low-level code that can rival with C, but in a high-level, safe language, that has the LAMBDA nature, macros, and a decent module system. 04:58:43 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:15 I want the moll slave to be the last C program I ever have written. 04:59:48 Fare: fair enough, to be honest i was considering playing around with a low level lisp implementation myself recently 05:00:02 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:10 oh, and I want partial continuations, too. 05:00:11 Guthur: Could I interest you in SBCL / ARM hacking? 05:00:54 nyef: It'll be awhile before i have the bandwidth to do much, unfortunately 05:01:45 joneshf-work [~joneshf@c-98-238-144-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:53 Guthur: I hear you there. I've got a few projects that are suffering from lack of project bandwidth, myself. 05:02:05 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:d511:e9eb:f9a6:cf6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:02:16 my immediate plan is a OpenGL Lisp shader language first, and then I also have work 05:02:31 axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:37 Ooh. That sounds shiny. 05:02:38 and an MSc thesis i have been procastinating on for waaaayyyy to long 05:03:05 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:2da9:52e2:c36e:3a07] has joined #lisp 05:03:33 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-fgvbnstogszdatoc] has joined #lisp 05:03:36 I have work stuff that I need to do, and Iv'e been hacking on SBCL/ARM for the past week. Just hit an intermediate project goal earlier today, so I can set the SBCL stuff aside for at least a couple of days. 05:03:59 leo2007 [~leo@221.220.128.204] has joined #lisp 05:04:05 *|3b|* has been thinking about trying to clean up my lisp->glsl thing and trying to generalize it to opencl as well, not sure when i'll get to that though :/ 05:04:09 The Lisp shader language will take awhile because i want to do it properly, with well documented semantics, and clean implementation 05:06:14 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06:37 nyef: i forgot to work 3 weeks out of 4 last month doing my own stuff instead. 05:06:43 nyef: the world didn't end. 05:07:02 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:07:19 <|3b|> either that or working on something to compile to dalvik, or go back to playing with rift stuff, or try to work on a game, or ... 05:07:26 -!- dan64 [dan64@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:7dc0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:07:26 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:07:46 brucem: Unfortunately, the sales team at my (symbol-value 'dayjob) badly oversold us on deliverables, so I can't get away with that too much right now. 05:07:50 -!- dyreshark [dyreshark@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedb:3628] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:08:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:22 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:40 I can get away with it to some extent, and there's at least one article that I can get out of what I'm currently work-working on, but still... 05:08:51 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:09:25 nyef: ahh. i do contracting work for now ... so i just don't bill for all of that time. 05:09:36 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:08 ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:23 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:31 -!- blacklab` [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:34 -!- abend [~quassel@75-148-54-129-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 05:10:43 Yeah, and if I could get away with telling those-who-hold-my-contract something unprintable I'd consider it. 05:10:55 abend [~quassel@75-148-54-129-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:39 Unfortunately, I have an equity stake, so I have to come through on at least some things. 05:14:10 The upside is that I have a goodly amount of control of the technical direction, so one of the major pieces of the company's infrastructure is based around SBCL, Hunchentoot, and Postmodern. The drawback to that is that I can only commit bugfixes upstream to one of the three. 05:15:37 I'm not that bold yet with the Lisp-a-like that I maintain. Next year probably. 05:15:54 The further drawback is that it's the one which is least troublesome. The only SBCL trouble I've had has been lack of support for mac-roman character encoding. 05:16:20 (Which, yes, will be covered in the next version.) 05:18:32 I've seen the mac-roman patches. 05:18:44 are people still using old Macs? 05:18:48 My hunchentoot problems, before Xach tries to get on my case, are in the handling of MIME types in attachements (I forget the details, but have a redefinition of part of hunchentoot as one of the files in my build system), and the behavior under load. 05:19:40 I remember how with cliki, I ended up redefining a few key parts of cliki and/or araneida. I love being able to do that, in Lisp. 05:19:58 Honestly, I don't know if people are still using old macs or if I just got handed a file that had a weird encoding, but I had a file, produced within the past year, that was in mac-roman. 05:20:13 wow. 05:20:17 Besides, SBCL supports EBCDIC encodings, why is mac-roman so much of a stretch? (-: 05:20:56 nyef: thing that happens from Java stuff sometimes. (Mac Roman) 05:22:00 brucem: That's semi-frightening, but ISTR it being plausible on Java stuff running on OSX. 05:22:07 -!- JuniorRoy1 [~dev-fedor@217.118.79.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:22:24 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:24:28 RGCockatrices [~RGCocaktr@unaffiliated/ssj-budgie/x-0939095] has joined #lisp 05:24:34 i'm pretty confused by my error 05:24:39 i'm using slime emacs and clozure common lisp 05:24:48 i can't do conds or cases 05:24:49 like 05:24:51 at all apparently 05:24:53 -!- axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 05:24:57 slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-172-15-166-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:16 axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:25 like i can copypaste from a lisp textbook a standard cond thing 05:26:27 or case 05:26:30 and it doesn't work at all 05:26:56 <|3b|> RGCockatrices: http://paste.lisp.org/new/ <- paste what you tried, and what error you got there 05:27:17 right i'll paste one where i didn't use swear words as var names 05:28:04 do you want the xpanded backtrace 05:28:08 *expanded 05:28:37 <|3b|> some backtrace might help 05:30:05 <|3b|> code and the error are probably the important part to start with, particularly for something simple like COND 05:30:14 http://paste.lisp.org/+30O7 05:30:43 when i was going straight from the textbook (not a really old textbook either) it wasn't even completing the function definition 05:30:48 <|3b|> did you define a function named BARACK? 05:31:15 i bracketed wrong didn't i 05:31:23 well that's just one of them in others i've bracketed fine 05:31:51 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:31:56 let me add the code from the textbook which i used and got the same errors 05:32:21 http://paste.lisp.org/+30O7/1 05:33:10 <|3b|> what error do you get from that? 05:33:33 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 05:33:38 you're using it wrong 05:33:48 (obamacare 'obama) is what you want 05:33:59 or rather 'barack 05:34:25 or (quote barack) instead of (barack) 05:35:12 ohhhhhhhhhhhh 05:35:15 so when i'm calling the function 05:35:19 the argument doesn't need to be in brackets 05:35:23 <|3b|> backtrace in first example doesn't seem to match the form evaluated 05:35:30 <|3b|> arguments are evaluated normally 05:35:35 <|3b|> if it is a variable, no () 05:35:46 <|3b|> if it is a function call, use () 05:35:46 the conds and cases are fine it's just that i've been calling the function wrong 05:36:05 i knew it'd be something like that 05:38:12 <|3b|> also, you didn't actually paste the error in the first one :p 05:38:32 i thought that part was the error 05:38:45 i don't really understand the backtrace window when it comes up because i'm sure as hell not used to emacs 05:38:57 <|3b|> should have been something like "Error: Undefined function BARACK called with arguments () ." 05:39:06 <|3b|> up at the top of the window with the backtrace 05:39:12 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 05:40:38 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 05:40:38 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:41:26 Okay, it's almost one AM here, and I have functionality that I need to deliver to the (symbol-value '*dayjob*) soon, preferably by the end of the week, so I'm going to sign off. 05:41:34 -!- nyef [~nyef@pool-108-7-220-91.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: G'night all.] 05:42:21 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 05:42:37 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:30 -!- pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:52:08 -!- RGCockatrices [~RGCocaktr@unaffiliated/ssj-budgie/x-0939095] has left #lisp 05:54:13 nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has joined #lisp 05:58:18 slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:52 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-174-200.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:17:27 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc01-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 06:18:24 -!- harish [~harish@119.234.158.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:21:32 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 06:26:18 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-134-84.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 06:27:32 ben_m [~ben@chello062178107037.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 06:29:09 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 06:29:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 06:29:09 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 06:30:13 joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has joined #lisp 06:30:50 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 06:35:05 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 06:35:27 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:35:54 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-223-59.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:24 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-105-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:45:16 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:58:17 -!- slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 07:06:08 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:03 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:07:17 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:08:13 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:08:39 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 07:11:54 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:14:39 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 07:20:09 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:11 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:22:35 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:10 -!- QwertyDragon [~chatzilla@pool-173-76-7-69.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Iceape 2.7.12/20130119143918]] 07:25:12 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:29:35 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 07:32:21 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:34:22 ubikation [~user@c-67-166-81-173.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:57 hello! I was wondering how I could find libraries that depend on another library in quicklisp? I am looking for examples of a library 07:35:36 ubikation: dependencies are specified in the libraries' .asd file 07:35:45 ubikation: look at hunchentoot.asd for an example. 07:36:17 I'm trying to find examples of lparallel actually 07:37:11 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@158-142.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:37:44 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 07:38:02 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:39:28 -!- impulse- [~impulse@65.92.151.106] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:39:48 impulse [~impulse@65.92.151.106] has joined #lisp 07:41:12 is there a way to use quicklisp to query that? 07:42:35 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:43:43 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:35 i think you can look at quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/systems.txt to determine the dependencies of a certain system. 07:50:41 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 07:51:23 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:51:56 slyrus_ [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 07:53:45 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-wcxawdqvlyvwizjj] has joined #lisp 07:54:15 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@adsl-172-15-166-163.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:54:17 -!- slyrus_ is now known as slyrus 08:01:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:01:52 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 08:04:00 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 08:05:34 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 08:10:43 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:12:27 H4ns: thanks! 08:13:12 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:14:10 -!- antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 08:18:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:19:04 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.36.242] has left #lisp 08:24:12 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-hnvbdiyjkdxzwtjr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:24:54 Harag1 [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:25:26 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 08:28:13 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 08:28:15 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 08:28:53 -!- ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:30:44 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 08:32:11 hey, how would I run a function and pause it after 10 seconds? 08:32:16 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.36] has joined #lisp 08:32:49 ideally I'm looking for something that can check how long a function has been running every 50ms in a very quick manner 08:33:52 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc01-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34:01 sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 08:34:29 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:13 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 08:35:25 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:36:35 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:36:45 ivan\ [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 08:37:13 <_death> minion: trivial-timeout 08:37:18 trivial-timeout: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 08:38:31 dyreshark [dyreshark@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedb:3628] has joined #lisp 08:39:37 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 08:40:05 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40:07 snits [~snits@75-167-8-215.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 przl [~przlrkt@p57922A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:51:28 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 08:51:52 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 08:59:10 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:08 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:19 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57922A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:03:10 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 09:05:43 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 09:10:41 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:40 -!- nug700 [~nug700@184-98-176-188.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:15:34 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:41 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:17:24 nycat [32003907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.0.57.7] has joined #lisp 09:18:03 -!- ubikation [~user@c-67-166-81-173.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:18:36 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 09:23:16 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:24:46 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:26:02 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:26:20 -!- Harag1 [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:26:21 vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:30:06 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:30:19 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:13d:9ef8:4c87:239] has joined #lisp 09:30:41 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 09:30:46 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:31:14 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:34:50 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:35:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:39:43 -!- ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:48:03 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:49:36 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 09:50:05 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:55 Piratee [916d1a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.109.26.87] has joined #lisp 09:55:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:58:00 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-wcxawdqvlyvwizjj] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:05:42 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 10:07:26 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:13d:9ef8:4c87:239] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:10:55 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:11:38 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 10:16:36 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:17:13 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 10:32:42 Guthur` [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:37:48 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:40:33 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:37 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:47:49 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:49:13 -!- Piratee [916d1a57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.109.26.87] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:57:17 harish [~harish@175.156.102.128] has joined #lisp 10:59:55 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-162-208.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:00:01 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 11:00:27 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 11:05:45 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has joined #lisp 11:09:07 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-82-8.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:10:02 fnordbert [~fnordbert@unaffiliated/fnordbert] has joined #lisp 11:10:32 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:11:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:14:29 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:16:11 segv- [~mb@f052236089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:19:12 -!- fnordbert [~fnordbert@unaffiliated/fnordbert] has quit [Quit: quit] 11:19:37 fnordbert [~fnordbert@unaffiliated/fnordbert] has joined #lisp 11:28:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:30:03 foo` [~user@24.20.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #lisp 11:30:34 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has joined #lisp 11:30:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 11:32:34 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.237.65] has joined #lisp 11:32:34 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.237.65] has quit [Changing host] 11:32:34 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 11:33:14 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 -!- segv- [~mb@f052236089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:35:30 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:38:23 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:39:11 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:03 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.36.242] has joined #lisp 11:41:20 @wn shall 11:42:43 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:57 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:42:57 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 11:43:51 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:44:47 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:46:18 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-16-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:46:19 -!- Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:46:20 Heather [~Heather@gentoo/developer/cynede] has joined #lisp 11:46:22 hi 11:46:22 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:27 -!- cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:46:37 Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 11:49:50 Hi all. Is it possible to make to equal (in human sense) numbers not "eq" (in lisp sense)? Things like (let ((x 5) (y 5)) (eq x y)) return true. This means two different objects "5" considered the same object. 11:51:57 Sorry, Is it possible to make TWO equal (in human sense) numbers ... 11:52:22 -!- Heather [~Heather@gentoo/developer/cynede] has left #lisp 11:53:55 hiroaki [~hiroaki@p548319BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:58:40 STilda: there is no requirement that two human-equal numbers are ever EQ in CL. However, aiui, the most common implementation technique has the effect that FIXNUMs are (treated as) EQ. 12:00:34 So that (eq 1 1) => T, and (eq (+ 1 most-positive-fixnum) (+ 1 most-positive-fixnum)) => NIL in the typical case. 12:02:47 STilda: It is my understanding that EQ only returns true of the values being compared point to the same object (not equivalent objects). 12:04:29 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:05:00 STilda: or you could read http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm e.g. "Common Lisp makes no guarantee that eq is true even when both its arguments are ``the same thing'' if that thing is a ... number." 12:05:25 splittist_: yeah, just found it 12:06:41 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@p548319BC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:07:39 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.196.201] has joined #lisp 12:09:53 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 12:12:12 OldContr`: so this is like comaring addresses of objects in memory 12:12:59 Think of it as comparing identity. You probably want eql. 12:13:23 eql and eq are the same, except that eql works on numbers, chars, etc. 12:14:25 Zhivago: good, I think I get it. 12:15:06 eq is like eql, only optimized for symbols and non-value objects. 12:16:44 echo-area [~user@123.120.247.7] has joined #lisp 12:16:57 -!- Guthur` [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:18:20 -!- lupine [~lupine@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:18:35 bcvb [~bcvb@41.131.231.76] has joined #lisp 12:19:13 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:21:38 yakov [uid256@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jkeufavcsddwvpod] has joined #lisp 12:21:50 -!- bcvb is now known as aaaaaaa 12:21:50 -!- aaaaaaa [~bcvb@41.131.231.76] has quit [Client Quit] 12:22:09 bcvb [~bcvb@41.176.140.65] has joined #lisp 12:22:29 -!- bcvb [~bcvb@41.176.140.65] has quit [Client Quit] 12:24:54 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.81.192] has joined #lisp 12:25:00 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.81.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:25:07 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.81.192] has joined #lisp 12:30:34 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:57 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:31:00 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has joined #lisp 12:35:26 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:36:09 lupine [~lupine@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has joined #lisp 12:37:45 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-5-155.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:37:52 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 -!- foo` [~user@24.20.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:41:35 STilda: Right. It's compairing the pointers, I guess. 12:44:22 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 12:44:32 -!- froggey_ is now known as froggey 12:48:25 corni [~corni@2a02:8071:280a:fd00:222:4dff:fea7:6685] has joined #lisp 12:48:26 -!- corni [~corni@2a02:8071:280a:fd00:222:4dff:fea7:6685] has quit [Changing host] 12:48:26 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.36.242] has left #lisp 13:01:59 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:29 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.102.69.237] has joined #lisp 13:03:53 -!- ben_m [~ben@chello062178107037.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:04:03 -!- Mathieu [mlegrand@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:caf4] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:06:28 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has joined #lisp 13:07:22 Mathieu [mlegrand@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:caf4] has joined #lisp 13:11:12 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.61.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:12:49 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:14:15 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-195-100.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 13:16:48 jdz_ [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has joined #lisp 13:16:58 ben_m [~ben@chello062178107037.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 -!- jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:27 -!- leo2007 [~leo@221.220.128.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:21:21 -!- jdz_ [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 13:24:35 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:26:07 -!- joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:26:49 joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has joined #lisp 13:26:52 jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has joined #lisp 13:27:18 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:27:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:23 -!- joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:31:34 segv- [~mb@f052236089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:17 Joreji [~thomas@133-016.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:33:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:34:25 notyourconcern [544f0bd7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.79.11.215] has joined #lisp 13:36:16 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-195-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:37:16 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.196.201] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 13:38:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:38:58 -!- notyourconcern [544f0bd7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.79.11.215] has quit [Client Quit] 13:42:19 -!- rpg [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:44:38 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:46:43 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 13:47:20 anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has joined #lisp 13:47:36 -!- antgreen__ [~green@dsl-173-206-69-26.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:48:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:48:57 -!- anonus [anonymous@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fedf:2cc7] has quit [Client Quit] 13:50:56 STilda: compare (eq (expt 10 1000) (expt 10 1000)) vs. (eql (expt 10 1000) (expt 10 1000)) ; in ccl Version 1.9-r15757 (LinuxX8664) 13:51:30 STilda: I don't know any implementation that takes the pain of interning bignums. Therefore any two bignums that are equal won't be eq in general. 13:51:32 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:46 joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has joined #lisp 13:58:52 (let ((x 1)) (eq x x)) may return nil in implementations that have boxed fixnums and copy them upon argumment passing (no known implementation uses this would be very slow sheme). 13:59:39 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 13:59:44 (eq 1 1) may return nil in implementation that have boxed fixnum. This could occur eg. on implementations over Java or other like languages, that would use the Integer class to represent lisp fixnums. 14:00:53 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:03 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 14:05:42 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 14:11:05 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:12:39 ogamita: didn't ABCL do that? 14:13:07 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:14:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-231-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 14:15:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:22:50 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 luis: I'm not sure, it could also use int instead of the class Integer. Try it! 14:29:33 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-185-48.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:22 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 14:32:26 Don't have ABCL at hand. 14:33:41 But I have Google! http://enlivend.livejournal.com/14310.html (see the comments) 14:33:45 -!- jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34:04 jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has joined #lisp 14:37:27 -!- hlavaty` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 14:37:34 hlavaty`` [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:43 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:00 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 Acherontius [~Mike@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 14:41:02 jdz_ [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 -!- jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:41:25 -!- jdz_ is now known as jdz 14:41:32 -!- Acherontius [~Mike@204.116.186.34] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:32 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:42:04 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:42:06 -!- jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:21 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:42:23 jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has joined #lisp 14:42:29 -!- jdz [~jdz@212.36.34.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44:56 ogamita: luis was correct in remembering that ABCL is one of the few CL implementations that use the standard provision of having non-EQ fixnums 14:46:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:47:17 turns out that, according to that blog post, on ABCL (eq 1 1) => t but (eq 2 (1+ 1)) => nil 14:48:14 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:48:44 oset 14:51:11 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 14:51:55 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Quit: Some days you're the pigeon, some days the statue...] 14:53:12 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 14:56:26 jbarker [~jbarker@18.111.82.42] has joined #lisp 14:57:23 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 14:57:23 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@gray-47.dynamic2.rpi.edu] has quit [Changing host] 14:57:23 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 15:00:00 ggole [~ggole@124.149.108.150] has joined #lisp 15:00:37 -!- lemo1nem is now known as lemoinem 15:01:31 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:52 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@177.224.107.68] has joined #lisp 15:15:03 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D4B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:33 ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has joined #lisp 15:17:25 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:20:10 mathrick: good to know, so that if newbies use eq on numbers, we can run their code on ABCL to puzzle them :-) 15:22:59 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-59.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:28 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:48 antgreen__ [green@nat/redhat/x-hyyrstrpokcsvntx] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [K-Lined] 15:27:35 ASau [~user@p54AFE77D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:49 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:34:10 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 15:34:15 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:20 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-59.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:34:48 Baggers [~Baggers@91.237.34.50] has joined #lisp 15:36:29 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:52 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:11 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-136.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:38 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:51 -!- Baggers [~Baggers@91.237.34.50] has left #lisp 15:37:52 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:13 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:41:04 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:41:22 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:40 -!- joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:43:58 joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has joined #lisp 15:46:14 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.111.82.42] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46:59 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:47:00 brandonz [~brandon@172.56.33.196] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:33 minion: memo for beach: while I haven't fully finished my getting-employed yet, I'm in a spot where nothing I do will speed things up much, so I was about to start writing the CLIM2 calendar until I got reminded I promised a non-CLIM GUI book before. To that end, feel free to demand results from me, to ensure I don't get too distracted :) 15:47:33 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 15:48:43 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:01 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-220-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:12 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:49:13 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:23 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:49:35 mathrick you write books for clim ? 15:49:56 eheh good to know! 15:50:15 in a way. I want to collaborate with beach on a book outlining various approaches to GUI, both in the Lisp world and outside 15:50:25 that's cool! 15:51:15 never met yet any from that crowd! 15:51:28 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 15:52:07 -!- brandonz [~brandon@172.56.33.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:52:09 other than beach i mean.... 15:52:48 -!- staykov [~wiggin@cable.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:54:34 oleo: what crowd is that? 15:54:47 mathrick: is there an established GUI taxonomy? 15:55:41 splittist_: that's one of the things we will figure out I believe :). There are rough outlines, but I don't believe anyone has actually ever treated that as a topic before 15:55:53 which is a shame, because not all GUI toolkits are created equal 15:56:03 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 15:56:57 -!- nialo` [~bcoburn@bcoburn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:57:14 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:24 Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 16:00:31 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:17 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:02:53 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:03:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:04:43 the guid crowd! 16:04:46 err gui! 16:04:48 lol 16:05:12 I actually think gtk-server had the best idea for guis 16:05:32 Just make a protocol for high level gui description and take it out of libraries 16:06:21 In some senses, I guess that's what web development is 16:06:25 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 16:06:42 you sound like dto 16:06:46 lol 16:06:53 he loves protocols too! 16:07:02 i think they are so general.... 16:07:12 think about all those rfc stuff from earlier.... 16:07:27 -!- nycat [32003907@gateway/web/freenode/ip.50.0.57.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:08:06 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08:06 nialo` [~bcoburn@bcoburn.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:00 splittist_: there's a UI taxonomy in TAOUP. 16:09:08 including some GUI stuff. 16:09:59 But I guess nowadays it could be augmented a lot, with new devices and variants (mobiles, kinects, tablets, glasses, watches, etc). There are graphics everywhere, but the gestures take over the mouse. 16:10:30 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:14:04 staykov [~wiggin@cable.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:39 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:16:51 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:57 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:17:31 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:19:10 -!- BlastHardcheese [chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:19:28 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:19:29 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has joined #lisp 16:20:01 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:21 BlastHardcheese [~chris@pdpc/supporter/active/blasthardcheese] has joined #lisp 16:23:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@133-016.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:24:41 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:04 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:28:29 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 16:30:03 dlowe: the problem with that is that doing non-standard things becomes much, much harder and awkward, yet very many apps need a custom widget or two 16:30:16 it's in many ways the same problem CLIM has 16:30:32 -!- tokenrov1 is now known as tokenrove 16:30:34 mathrick: yeah, I've thought of this. My solution was to have a minimal widget description language 16:30:47 ogamita: good point, non-desktop / mouse & keyboard GUI also needs a section 16:30:50 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:31:20 dlowe: yeah, but those things tend to balloon up until you have it turing-complete, just crappy and ill-specified 16:31:20 -!- Dodek [am291698@duch.mimuw.edu.pl] has left #lisp 16:31:59 or, you know, you just have drawing commands like you would do anyway 16:32:05 a large part of what we want to do with CLIM3 / CLIMatis / the book is to find out which of those problems can be solved and how by taking a survey of things 16:32:14 they'd just pass through a protocol layer 16:32:57 dlowe: yes, they simply happen to be some 10000× slower and stack poorly with the composited framebuffer model of modern display servers 16:33:51 *nyef* sighs. 16:34:01 slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:04 I really should blow the dust off of my NQ-CLIM project again and do some more work on it. 16:34:59 nyef: NQ? 16:35:06 "Not Quite". 16:35:40 mathrick: 10000x slower is still like 1000x faster than humans can perceive 16:35:43 Browser back-end for CLIM would be way cool, but... 16:36:37 dlowe: it's fine for a widget, not so fine for a pixel. This kind of hit for a low-level drawing ops is murder 16:36:55 mathrick: oh, yeah. sure. 16:37:02 I'd gotten as far as implementing enough of silica that I could put a window up and draw in it, but I was doing an end-run and talking directly to CLX for the event handling. 16:37:11 nyef: I'm interested, what's different between NQ and regular CLIM? 16:37:26 I'm not pretending to conform to the spec. 16:37:29 also have you looked at CLIMatis? 16:37:57 I looked at CLIMatis at one point a while back. 16:38:02 https://github.com/robert-strandh/CLIMatis 16:38:07 It's probably changed quite a bit since. 16:38:26 aha 16:38:26 beach is making up the spec as he goes, so it obviously doesn't conform to CLIM2 16:38:54 but unlike CLIM2, there is an option of modifying the spec to suit what we know about GUI and what people want from GUI 20 years later 16:39:21 Mmm. That sounds nice. 16:40:14 I was going to pick the bits that looked good from the spec, and make it look as pretty as I could, but it's also somewhat of a vehicle for me to try and UNDERSTAND the spec. 16:40:49 also, I don't know quite enough about CLIM yet, but I suspect making it easy to break through abstractions and provide specialised versions of things for particular backends might be the most sensible option for many things 16:41:41 nyef: heh, beach did the same, he drops in here with revelations along the lines of "so I was working on CLIMatis and suddenly I understand why CLIM2 did things they way it did them" regularly 16:41:51 *the 16:42:38 Yeah, CLIM2 is this weird mix of insanely brilliant subtle stuff and simply insane "WTF were they thinking" stuff. 16:43:44 Oh, and my current theory as to how CLIM2 applications are supposed to be written is that it's like BeOS: Threads EVERYWHERE. 16:43:49 no doubt the time pressure added to a lot of insanity 16:43:52 nipra [~nipra@122.177.64.50] has joined #lisp 16:44:05 Joreji [~thomas@158-142.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:07 nyef: mhm, implicit threads are sad panda 16:44:34 "You have a sheet that needs to handle events? Use a thread!" 16:45:42 nyef: CLX is pretty old and gray by now. Speaking as someone who's old and gray myself... 16:46:02 we should just give up on everything and write web apps 16:46:07 at most web apps on CEF3 16:46:36 CEF3? I think I know what CF3 is, but not CEF3 16:47:12 I wish someone would give me a library that would let me interact with either Chromium or Firefox innards from CL, so that I can break out of the stupid sandbox. That was really hampering for web apps in the past. 16:47:13 oh, embedded chrome 16:47:48 Maybe the new storage APIs will make webapps significantly less crippled. 16:47:50 rpg: It is, but it STILL WORKS. Unless you want to make a set of FFI bindings to xlib and whatever opengl library is out there, it's what we've got. And even then, it's a workable baseline. 16:48:02 *mathrick* refuses to consider chrom(e/ium) for anything 16:48:22 their utter disregard for anything approaching resource management is appalling 16:48:30 Chromium is for adding to steel to make it rust-resistant, surely? 16:48:39 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:48:40 nyef: Yes, CLX is the worst graphics library except for all the rest. 16:49:22 isn't CLX completely tied to the bad, old, nobody-loves-it-anymore core X protocol? 16:50:08 mathrick: Yes. Isn't it also the only X protocol that still functions over the network? 16:50:35 nyef: if you don't care for how well it functions, then yes 16:51:02 in practice, nobody uses core X for remoting and a simple blitted framebuffer actually performs better for remoting 16:51:03 The one issue about CLX is that there seems to be a vacuum where there should be maintenance. Xophe was doing stuff, but I think he's done with it. 16:51:33 I think there's a bunch of holes in particular where interacting with authorization is concerned. 16:51:51 drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.42.83] has joined #lisp 16:51:53 but my knowledge is probably at least 10 months stale 16:52:12 Yeah, CLX maintenance is a bit tricky because it purports to work on a bunch of lisp environments, several of which are hard to come across especially for someone unwilling to spend money on it. 16:52:22 does CLX use any C-level lib for X protocol, or does it handle it on its own? 16:52:36 All internally. 16:52:56 nyef: I think Franz maintains a fork of Xophe's version. 16:53:08 As I said, there's probably an angle available for reimplementing the CLX interface using an FFI. 16:53:20 CLXrender would be a nice thing to have for people who want a framebuffer to write to anyway 16:53:42 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:53:51 nyef: yeah, with XCB X in C is significantly less insane 16:53:54 If I even considered doing such a reimplementation I'd use SB-ALIEN as the FFI, because that's my go-to FFI. 16:54:02 not CFFI? 16:54:30 The original X protocol was intentionally lispy. (Lagged comment.) 16:54:32 Meh. CFFI is some newfangled FFI that I don't care to spend the time to learn. 16:55:35 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.64.50] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:56:00 nyef: you have a really odd definition of "new" :). Also it works on things that aren't SBCL 16:56:46 splittist_: how does lispiness manifest in a protocol? 16:57:05 -!- antgreen__ [green@nat/redhat/x-hyyrstrpokcsvntx] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:57:09 There are things that aren't SBCL? (-: 16:57:39 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:57:50 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:2da9:52e2:c36e:3a07] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:58:31 yeah, it's even good to be able to target them :) 16:59:07 speaking of which, who's behind mocl? 16:59:24 and are there any plans to bring mocl to the non-mobile space? 16:59:45 So I hear, which just adds to my disinclination to start such a reimplementation. 17:00:41 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-95-114-27.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:00:45 Wes Henderson 17:01:24 ah, I don't think I know him, at least not by mapping to any known nicks 17:01:39 -!- p9f [~stian@arachnotron.sletner.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:01:45 mathrick: the X11 protocol was careful to specify things as 29-bit quantities and similar, to allow for convenient implementation in languages with tags 17:01:58 interesting 17:01:59 also interning symbols 17:02:13 mathrick: what Krystof said (also lists and atoms) 17:02:23 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 17:02:26 so lispy in the implementation sense, rather than just abstract structure 17:02:36 for the contemporary lisp implementations 17:03:20 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:22 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:04:36 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.170.42.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04:48 KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has joined #lisp 17:04:52 aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has joined #lisp 17:06:12 either way, the direction has been clear: nobody wants to deal with drawing ops above the level of pixels in large buffers blitted to the output anymore. For all intents and purposes, that with client-side rendering is the better model, including remoting because it compresses just as well while reducing latency considerably 17:06:32 -!- segv- [~mb@f052236089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:06:52 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:06:55 modern X is that in extensions, sidestepping core X completely. OSX is only that. Windows with GDI+ is that 17:06:59 wayland will be that 17:07:10 resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:11 android is that, plus a bunch of "don't do that" rules to avoid overloading the HW compositor 17:08:28 segv- [~mb@f052236089.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:08:43 Don't worry: the core X extensions are still useful for root exploits, though. 17:09:10 hell, CLIMatis does that, it just then sends the framebuffer over core X via CLX because nobody wrote a smarter backend yet :) 17:09:22 foom: heh, more or less 17:09:45 though systemd on linux does things to allow non-root X 17:09:57 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:10:22 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-16-165.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:56 isn't it sad that the ZOID extension got dropped in modern servers? 17:11:00 CLX still supports it, though 17:11:23 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 17:11:46 ZOID? 17:11:51 *mathrick* googles 17:13:04 trapezoid drawing 17:13:06 so it's some kind of thing that allows drawing trapezoids? 17:13:15 very useful. ;p 17:13:32 XRender has trapezoids, plus a bunch of other things like client-side fonts 17:13:59 and translucency 17:14:07 don't forget translucency 17:14:31 I preferred this result: "An Ultimate X is a rare kind of Zoid that surpasses other Zoids in terms of performance and capabilities. Ultimate X Zoids possess strong artificial intelligence, which allow them to learn and predict moves of opponents they face." 17:15:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has joined #lisp 17:15:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.185.228] has quit [Changing host] 17:15:01 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 17:15:54 there's a wikia for everything 17:16:27 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-8-215.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:19:03 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:19:14 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 17:19:27 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 17:20:02 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:21:36 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:21:50 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 17:22:24 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc08-o.oracle.com] has joined #lisp 17:24:25 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:33 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 -!- percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:12 percopal [~percopal@63.65.76.38] has joined #lisp 17:25:38 I wonder if LW and/or Franz could be persuaded to provide licences for compatibility testing boxes so that maintaining support isn't too expensive 17:25:49 the only problem is that someone would have to maintain said boxes 17:25:54 and the access to them 17:26:13 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:26:32 See, this is why I like the idea of a clean reimplementation. No compatibility expectations. (-: 17:28:41 nyef: it'd still be annoying to have it completely non-portable. You technically don't "break" any prior compat, but you still fail to provide it where CLX proper did 17:28:56 anything that's strictly tied to one and only implementation is annoying 17:29:08 that includes allegro-specific libs :) 17:29:33 Sure, but how hard is it to take a library written for SB-ALIEN and port it to CFFI? 17:29:46 I've seen it done in small cases, after lal. 17:29:48 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 17:29:51 s/lal/all/. 17:29:54 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 why not do it directly in CFFI then? 17:30:20 CFFI maps very cleanly to SB-ALIEN 17:30:26 Because I don't know or care to learn CFFI, I have stuff to do instead. 17:30:29 it just maps to other FFIs too 17:30:40 Besides, it's a dependency. Eliminate the dependencies! 17:31:00 samebchase [~samuel@codesurfers.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:05 ...and then accept patches to introduce them. Useful! 17:31:25 nyef: my experience is that you want to use CFFI anyway, because it's a higher-level API on top of SB-ALIEN 17:31:30 well, higher-ish 17:31:37 less lower level if you will 17:31:45 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:51 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 17:31:58 Given some of the SB-ALIEN hacking I've done, I might almost agree with you. 17:31:59 nyef: or just autowrap! ;) 17:32:04 aren't you then dependent on sbcl? What happens when Krystof goes mad and makes sbcl a native clojure compiler? 17:32:12 then you don't have to do much and maintenance is free 17:32:26 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 17:33:02 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:33:15 the parts of CFFI responsible for native type mapping are pretty clever and useful 17:33:20 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 17:33:35 i like mine better :P 17:33:39 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:33:43 everything is actually exposed and queryable 17:34:19 CFFI hides a lot and doesn't allow you to get (or specify!) stuff like struct field offsets etc 17:34:26 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 284 seconds] 17:34:35 oGMo: oh, link? 17:34:49 mathrick: https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap 17:35:05 cute! 17:35:19 which pulls info from c2ffi, https://github.com/rpav/c2ffi 17:35:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:35:47 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:35:52 oGMo: "cl-plus-c provides an alternate mechanism" <-- *alternative 17:36:02 this has been a free Grammar Nazi announcement 17:36:12 and not just theoretical, actually been applied to a number of things .. we did cl-sdl2 using it, someone did clutter, and i recently did zmq4l in a couple days 17:36:14 rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:26 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has joined #lisp 17:36:39 I'm definitely intrigued 17:36:55 mathrick: hrm the dictionary says "alternate" is also a noun synonymous with "alternative" 17:37:30 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 oGMo: only in US usage and that's a widespread corruption pretty much. "Alternative" means "different", whereas "alternate" means "every other, changing in a regular pattern" 17:37:44 but the latter sounds better off the tongue, i think, so thanks ;) the docs are rather quickly-done and poorly edited ;/ 17:38:03 hah 17:38:10 I know the US tries to convince everybody English truly has no rules, but they're wrong :) 17:38:18 oh, you mean _to alternate_, rather than _an alternate_ 17:38:45 mathrick: yeah my mom was an english teacher so i'm a bit of a grammar nazi myself 17:38:54 american english, but :p 17:39:01 oGMo: there's an adjective "alternate", but it has a specialised meaning. "Alternate plant stalks bear leaves" for instance 17:39:05 ie. every other 17:39:09 yeah 17:39:20 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:28 there's also a noun "alternate", but it's even more esoteric 17:39:34 I just listened to a podcast, and it's topic was lisp. It was, sadly, an hour of wrong lisp stereotypes and some historical info coming off of wikipedia 17:39:39 *its 17:39:40 in any case, i wrote c2ffi / autowrap after swig finally fell apart and i couldn't fix it 17:39:48 ... "what are bear leaves, and why does only the alternate plant stalk them?" 17:39:59 it's "something that alternates with another in a predictable pattern; the other side" 17:40:09 so for example "Lisp and despair are alternates" 17:40:12 c2ffi based on Clang so it's a perfect parse, though macros are a massive hack, because cpp sucks 17:40:26 either you Lisp or you despair 17:40:50 oGMo: so you pre-generate the wrapper definitions? 17:41:21 nyef: isn't nature mysterious? 17:41:50 ok i changed it to "different", because i already used "alternatively" in the sentence :P 17:41:53 mathrick: Apparently so! 17:41:55 heh 17:42:15 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:42:49 mathrick: yeah .. it will pregen bindings for various arch/platforms .. sadly no version handling quite yet, but no worse than current FFI 17:44:07 oGMo: so it's not possible to do things dynamically? Or is it just not the usual way, but still possible? 17:44:23 well, it pregenerates the specs, bindings are made when you load it .. and cl-plus-c helps eliminate compile times (and make usage just a lot nicer) 17:44:33 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #lisp 17:44:49 i know why (car (1 2)) bombs....you need a quote.....should this bomb for the same reason?... (map car '( (1 2) (3 4) )) ? 17:44:53 i would have thought you needed (map car '( '(1 2) '(3 4) )) 17:44:55 aye 17:45:10 mathrick: it depends what you mean .. the idea is you generate and distribute bindings for various platforms, so your user doesn't need a C compiler, c2ffi, or anything but cffi-sys and autowrap 17:45:15 oGMo: what if I wanted to add some bindings by hand (ie. CFFI without grovel kind of thing)? 17:45:23 is it very annoying to do? 17:45:56 mathrick: probably not terribly .. all the functions for making definition records (structs, functions, etc) are exposed 17:46:27 though for structs you must specify layout explicitly .. for functions it's not much more than cffi 17:46:27 heh, the ObjC++ TODO 17:46:37 does anyone at all use ObjC++ for anything? 17:46:47 i didn't even know it existed before doing that heh 17:46:52 so no idea 17:47:09 what's the point of ObjC++ anyway? Adding object orientation to C++? It just shows how fucking awful (technical term) C++ is 17:47:19 c++ i have an evil idea for but i havne't gotten back around to it 17:47:33 mathrick: i believe making objc talk to C++ 17:47:39 someone tried C++ with verazzano or whatever it was called 17:48:21 my idea is actually generating C bindings for C++ then wrapping that 17:48:23 http://common-lisp.net/projects/fetter/ 17:48:36 ObjC++ is useful for writing C++ code that talks to ObjC APIs... And vice-versa. 17:48:45 mathrick: yeah i tried to get gcc-xml working and no luck :/ 17:48:59 oGMo: yeah, it's about the only sensible way of interacting with C++. But the problem is that you need to wrap C++ to do that, which is generally an undecideable problem 17:50:10 mathrick: it seems reasonably doable, for many useful cases, since you use the C++ compiler to do all the C++ lifting, and just talk to C 17:50:36 generate a well-defined mangling of your own, and then provide a nice wrapper-side API 17:51:19 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-136.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:30 oGMo: can you? Sure the compiler will technically let you "parse" C++, but actually representing that in C requires understanding the C++ part, which is a rather unbounded thing to do, because C++ just keeps finding new interesting ways to reinvent the wheel 17:51:41 C++ would be mostly ignorable if there weren't useful libraries i don't want to duplicate (i.e. bullet) 17:51:47 yeah 17:52:07 it's not useful to talk to C++, but it's still sadly desirable and necessary sometimes 17:52:23 mathrick: ah but you don't need to parse C++ .. you only need basic declarations, then generate C functions to do the rest 17:52:24 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:52:25 przl [~przlrkt@p57922A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:50 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has joined #lisp 17:52:51 and clang++ will parse it, and give you everything nicely 17:52:54 There was a preprocessor that used to generate C code from C++; I don't know if it's still around 17:53:05 oGMo: but the C functions have to map to C++ somehow, and most of the time, any "somehow" that's at all useful requires understanding what the C++ original means 17:53:46 jasom_: Cfront, and no, not really 17:54:02 -!- jasom_ is now known as jasom 17:54:03 it stopped being enough around the time they added exceptions 17:54:11 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:54:14 and then proceeded to infect everyone's linkers 17:54:31 mathrick: right, but C++ already maps to C functions, because they all have to be standard symbols 17:55:00 jbarker_ [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has joined #lisp 17:55:09 oGMo: what about templates and other idiocy? 17:55:13 until the itanium ABI came out, wasn't it mostly prelinker, with a standard C linker? 17:55:22 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:55:38 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:47 no, it pretty much mandated some kind of mangling, because of pre-main initialisation and deduplication C++ requires to function at all 17:56:07 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:56:51 mathrick: generate generic templates, or specific wrappers for specific preinstatiated templates C++ compiles .. it's basically a really smartass solution that keeps you from having to actually touch any C++ 17:57:13 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 17:58:06 jasom: heh, saith wikipedia: "C++ (and Cfront) was directly responsible for many improvements in Unix linkers and object file formats, as it was the first widely used language which required link-time type checking, weak symbols, and other similar features." 17:58:08 basically you make C++ to compile you a C library that makes a bunch of C++ calls and you just call the C .. if you need something specific (i.e. template instantiation) you'd do that before it builds the library 17:58:29 if you define being able to deal with C++'s crap as "improvement", then sure 17:58:45 this you can all do by hand now, but with clang++ to parse declarations you can do it automatically 17:59:02 hopefully 17:59:16 oGMo: do you have any idea how to deal with exceptions? 17:59:17 sure but practically speaking there are a few nice things in C++ .. a lot of game libs (again, bullet ;) are C++ .. steam is C++ 17:59:53 perhaps a pre-generated try_catch() which can translate all known exception types to a C struct to be passed to the other side 18:00:06 oGMo: nearly every GUI library is in C as well 18:00:10 mathrick: sure, you wrap everything C++ in the C function, catch the exception, wrap it in something, and call a handler 18:00:16 jasom: you mean C or C++ 18:00:16 ? 18:00:20 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:00:27 mathrick: gtk is the only C one I can think of 18:00:34 yeah 18:00:44 which is a shame, because it makes things So Much Nicer 18:00:56 GObject is a way better OO dialect of C than C++ 18:00:57 all the rest are C++ (except for fooSTEP which is objC) 18:01:00 like how you do any of this is really not hard .. it's literally "what you do in C++" because you _do_ it in C++ .. i just haven't finished all the bits :( 18:01:17 mathrick: for a long time it had some sever inconsistancies with heap-object ownership though 18:01:38 (gtk+ not gobject, which doesn't impose any object-ownership semantics) 18:01:50 oGMo: I don't think any single case is in itself conceptually hard. It's the sheer amount of variability and cases C++ allows that scares me 18:02:50 jasom: there are fundamental problems with refcounting and passing language barriers to GC'd languages, so that's pretty hard to solve 18:03:07 GObject has settled on semantics that make it possible to have one non-C runtime reliably 18:03:23 yeah the trick is you don't really need to deal with most of it, and a wrapper author can smooth out specifics (like specific template handling) 18:04:45 (and, clang++ does a lot of dealing for you on the frontend, all that's left is glue) 18:07:21 -!- rpg [~rpg@23-25-144-217-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:08:34 -!- jbarker_ [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:00 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has joined #lisp 18:10:07 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 18:11:17 hmm, I wonder if it would be technically be feasible to do run-time template instantiation by including a C++ compiler and using dlopen 18:11:53 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:19 jbarker_ [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has joined #lisp 18:13:22 if you consider that reasonable, then it would be possible 18:13:32 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:13:38 probably not necessary or useful though 18:13:41 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:14:27 loz1 [~maxvel@93.100.156.89] has joined #lisp 18:14:43 for languages wrapping C++, you can usually just use a generic "foreign" type for containers etc; for C++ it's static anyway so it doesn't particularly apply 18:14:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57922A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:15:45 e.g. consider a template taking a class that provides sorting for a container, you can make a generic class which provides hooks for FFI, and use that 18:16:11 callbacks would just work like any other CFFI callback in that case 18:16:21 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16:29 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:12 -!- impulse [~impulse@65.92.151.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:18:00 oGMo: I didn't say it would be usefull. Remember I'm the one who wrote a tcc wrapper that let you make anonymous C functions in lisp 18:18:41 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177961259.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:19:10 jasom: oh heh 18:19:15 though that actually did end up being slightly useful by accident; I needed to make a syscall that sbcl didn't already have a wrapper for, and it needed a struct with just a small nu8mber of fields set in it 18:19:27 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 18:19:31 so it was quicker to write a 2-line C function than get all the CFFI stuff right 18:20:26 jasom: that could be useful! 18:20:41 yeah exactly 18:21:15 you could do what you wanted .. i would just have at least a specific use in mind before going through with the work involved 18:22:30 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:36 well I was thinking of something like FOIL for C++, that uses clang++'s static analysis the way that foil uses java's introspection 18:22:54 not familiar with FOIL 18:23:15 -!- slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 18:23:40 oGMo: It's a library that talks to a jvm (or .net CLR) over a socket, and you can load java or .net packages as lisp packages 18:24:01 jasom: oh nifty 18:24:06 rpc-as-ffi 18:24:20 (|java.math|:biginteger.tostring (|java.math|:biginteger.pow (|java.math|:biginteger.new "3") 100)) => "515377520732011331036461129765621272702107522001" 18:24:56 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:57 that would definitely be a good use of the compiler on demand, though for the stuff i want not having it in-process would be a performance hit 18:25:32 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-136.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:48 well foil was originally something that was in-process using jni, but it was so closely tied to lispwork's ffi that foil was made to be more portable 18:26:26 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 18:28:06 Also, IIRC if you compile sbcl with threading enabled, then foreign threads cause issues (though an sbcl developer is free to correct me, that information may be old or erroneous) 18:28:07 does anybody here use cl in production? 18:29:48 loz1: i have, although i don't right at this moment. 18:29:52 jasom: foreign threads existing never (at least, as far as I remember) caused issues. 18:30:02 using lisp from a foreign-started thread caused (causes?) issues. 18:31:12 you can make it work on sbcl with certain build flags 18:31:21 tokenrove: im curious in replacing python with cl 18:31:32 works by default in windows, works reliably on linux x86_64 18:31:35 foom: the third-hand account I heard was that unix signals caused issues, as well as using lisp from foreign threads 18:33:16 Don't use signals, they cause all sorts of problems... I forget, though, I think sbcl reinvokes the signal on a lisp thread if it's received on a non-lisp thread. 18:33:21 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:33:46 But, we've been using sbcl in production with lots of non-lisp threads for more than 5 years, and it hasn't been a problem. 18:33:55 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:33:58 przl [~przlrkt@p57922A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:00 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p57922A29.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:44 foom: so what about forieign code that relies on unix signals? is that a problem? 18:34:54 what foreign code that relies on unix signals? 18:35:10 -!- aynik [~aynik@unaffiliated/aynik] has quit [Quit: everything will be ok at the end, and if is not ok, is not the end] 18:35:44 What library anyone would want to use could possibly rely on signals? 18:36:05 threads and signals together suck, but sadly there are some old linux-only things that rely on you being able to send signals to a thread 18:36:36 But anyhow, a C signal handler wouldn't cause a problem, unless you're stealing a signal SBCL uses itself. 18:36:54 like SEGV? 18:37:10 which I think the jvm garbage collector uses 18:37:19 there are numerous issues including no guarantee about what thread gets a signal 18:37:27 segv you could handle 18:37:40 but it'd be up to you to write the dispatch code 18:37:48 to decide whose segv handler should get to handle the segv 18:38:00 -!- Acherontius [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:25 anyways, i wouldn't recommend running the jvm and sbcl in one process. :) 18:39:00 foom: which is exactly why foil is out-of-process, but that shouldn't be an issue for doing something similar with C++ in-process though 18:40:00 foom: thanks for clarifying the restrictions on foreign threads with sbcl though. That helps a lot 18:40:01 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:40:38 loz1: FYI I've ported python libraries to lisp before, so if you run into issues there feel free to ask me questions 18:41:17 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:34 yates [~user@nc-67-232-27-161.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:56 the database coding paradigm of defining the database schema in the code seems to be getting more popular in the last few years. is there a cl package that supports such an approach? 18:42:33 probably postmodern, but that's not a great practice imo :P 18:42:44 yates: clsql, postmodern both support that technique. 18:43:22 i've also seen (but can't remember where..) a technique that makes a lot of sense to me in which such an approach also contains code to "roll up" or "roll back" to adjacent schema versions. 18:43:35 jasom: well the question is mostly about big things, like web framework and orm 18:43:37 oGMo, Xach: ok, thanks 18:43:46 oGMo: why not? 18:43:58 Acherontius [~Mike@204.116.186.34] has joined #lisp 18:44:38 orm will lead you into a complete train wreck. I'd seriously avoid it if at all possible. 18:44:55 dlowe: alternatives? 18:45:11 will hartung wrote about it, iirc 18:45:15 loz1: abstract your database into a collection on which you can perform certain operations 18:45:16 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:45:20 *Xach* digs up 18:45:46 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/Pm3GOmaQy9A/i43wIFsGYLcJ 18:45:47 yates: you always tend to be at the mercy of an incomplete mapping, and it's hard to maintain 18:46:09 or https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.lang.lisp/Pm3GOmaQy9A/i43wIFsGYLcJ 18:46:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46:21 yates: if you keep your SQL and code as separate as possible it tends to be pretty nice 18:46:27 unless I'm missing something, defining schema in code isn't related to using ORM 18:46:39 Phoodus: two conversations happening at the same time 18:46:46 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 18:47:00 Phoodus: loz1 <-> dlowe and Xach <-> yates 18:47:33 -!- Acherontius [~Mike@204.116.186.34] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 18:47:43 Xach is participating in both 18:47:50 dlowe: is there anything abstracting db like this in cl? 18:48:01 loz1: this is an abstraction you build into your own program 18:48:21 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-189-95.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:48:51 oGMo: i really don't know why you say that. if your SQL and code are separate, then you've got to deal with two things instead of one.. 18:49:19 two .. "implementations" (e.g., a db manager and your code) 18:49:27 dlowe: like stored procedures, but on application side? 18:50:06 unless it is the case that code supporting such things is very hard to use. 18:50:12 yates: that's modular separation of responsibilities, and it's considered a good thing 18:50:16 loz1: yeah, kind of 18:50:17 yates: you have two things, one is sql and one is code; trying to think they're one thing is a lie which will eventually (and probably sooner rather than later) hurt you. 18:51:27 Having been there and done that, I'll say that I currently have little bits of SQL floating around in various places in my code base, but I mostly try to corral them into files in one directory that is just for dealing with the DB. 18:52:22 It's awfully nice having your application set up the database for you. The entirety of the DB facilities is generally available to your client, so there's no reason it can't do the administration 18:52:25 And any inline use of POSTMODERN:QUERY or POSTMODERN:EXECUTE is grounds for an immediate extract-method refactoring. 18:52:53 yates: yes, and that's a feature :P 18:53:30 -!- jbarker_ [~jbarker@18.189.127.228] has quit [] 18:54:00 loz1: so, say I have a bunch of account records on a db, and I need to make a deduction on every account. That can be made one operation on a collection 18:54:10 Taking a "migrations" approach to schema maintenance is very nice, even with the ways that I managed to screw up implementing my migration system. 18:54:10 (or you will find it so when you need to manually deal with the database without having to load your code and produce SQL for all the things your code does) 18:54:11 and then that one operation can be implemented in one sql query 18:55:11 dlowe: if the schema changes, then your code breaks, so does moving the schema out of your code really yield separation of responsibilities? 18:55:21 so you would typically manage the schema using something like psql (for postgresql)? 18:56:21 i do, psql provides easy script and tons of features, but you could do it with other things 18:56:24 jasom: yes, i guess that's the problem i would think this approach would be good at addrssing. 18:56:52 think of putting SQL in your code like putting HTML in your code 18:57:27 hmm i do both without problems for my company issue tracker 18:57:37 you're going to have sql in your code at some level, unless you're using a library, no? 18:57:49 i'm not sure what the deal is 18:58:24 bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 18:58:36 yates: yes and no; write functions that have specific SQL strings, or best, load them from definition files, so you can easily reference and alter them without mucking in your code 18:58:38 same for html, but you try to manage it through abstraction (i happen to have used wt (for c++) recently) 18:58:52 -!- bassclide [~bassclide@118.129.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 18:59:06 well, yeah, that's just good, modular coding practice. 18:59:22 jasom: if the schema changes and your code doesn't, it's going to break regardless 18:59:24 i don't know what a definition file is. 18:59:49 yates: i would have to say yes. it turns out that a) you don't change database much (if ever) and b) sql and plpgSQL are really really good at expressing schema changes (that should surprise noone) 18:59:54 dlowe: that's what I said; so if you need to change your code when the schema changes, then putting the schema outside of your code isn't true separation of concerns 19:00:00 just a file you keep sql definitions in, indexed by something (tagged by name for instance) 19:00:20 a schema change doesn't necessarily break your code at all! 19:00:46 ok, i see what you're getting at. 19:00:50 jasom: this isn't a binary option. There are degrees of separation 19:00:55 it will possibly break your SQL; you can always rewrite a statement to return the same things (e.g., you split a table into 1:M) 19:01:31 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:01:40 it can break your API but then that changes things everywhere, and putting SQL in your code doesn't help 19:01:44 vedm [~vedm@80.78.239.171] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 jasom: anyway, we have two totally tangled topics going on here. I don't care about putting schemas in code. 19:02:09 okey, what about html templates and pages generation? 19:02:24 loz1: take your pick of a dozen libraries 19:02:25 minion: brl 19:02:26 brl: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/brl 19:02:30 no BRL?? :( 19:02:42 oh 19:02:44 minion: BTL 19:02:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``BTL''. 19:03:05 http://dlowe.net/code/btl.html 19:03:21 foom: (this might be too late of an answer) libpq uses/maskes SIGPIPE (which can cause serious headaches on sbcl) 19:03:23 boy, my website looks terrible by today's standards 19:04:19 *dlowe* wonders if btl even still works 19:04:38 segv-: SIGPIPE is such an evil signal. So, you'll need to unignore it after loading libpq, I suppose. 19:04:43 dlowe: need more contrast on that website 19:04:51 yes. much. 19:05:10 it used to be a flat, brighter color on the text boxes 19:05:35 dlowe: thanks for answers, ill try it 19:06:04 loz1: there's a lot of templating libraries out there. Try one until you find one that works 19:06:20 sexml is my preference 19:06:23 foom: it's worse than that, libpq masks it around calls to send/recv (the details are escaping me at the moment) it's not a one time thing you can actually unignore 19:06:35 -!- vedm [~vedm@80.78.239.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:06:36 you just have to live with uninterruptable threads if there are problems in the db 19:06:51 loz1: http://cliki.net/templating%20library http://cliki.net/HTML%20generator 19:07:01 http://lispwebtales.ppenev.com 19:07:48 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:28 axion: i saw this site some time ago, gonna look closer 19:08:37 html-template is ediware, which is highly regarded 19:09:13 -!- Praise- is now known as Praise 19:09:27 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:10:42 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-luxwmhdipovujyyi] has joined #lisp 19:11:13 loz1: for more high-level stuff there is hu.dwim.wui and weblocks 19:13:18 yates: I dunno if someone mentioned that already, but the technique of having steps to "upgrade" or "downgrade" the DB schema is usually called "migrations" 19:13:23 cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD163C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:55 -!- sauerkrause [~krause@24.55.25.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:17:33 segv-: yuck. should submit a patch to use MSG_NOSIGNAL instead. 19:18:33 ...already done 19:18:38 as of 2009-07-24. :) 19:19:52 also, it didn't override the global handler (phew), just blocked signals in its own thread, so that's not a problem except if you're calling out to it in a LISP thread. 19:20:00 -!- tsuru [~charlie@adsl-74-179-198-164.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:43 Can we just use cl-postgres or something instead? 19:20:57 nug700 [~nug700@184-98-176-188.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:13 nyef: working on it :) 19:21:19 (literally, working on it as we speak) 19:22:09 foom: yeah, the particular problem we had was calling out to libpq from a lisp thread and then the sql query would dead lock; but without sigpipe we couldn't interrupt the thread enough to look at the call stack 19:22:24 made debugging the problem a real pain 19:23:38 mathrick: no, they haven't. thanks for the terminology correction. 19:23:57 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:24:09 yates: aye, knowing that makes it much easier to google for further reading 19:24:20 true dat. 19:24:33 slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:14 i'm a little about quicklisp: do you already have to have a lisp installed (e.g., sbcl)? 19:25:40 yates: yes. 19:25:44 i guess so.. since you have to load the first little piece. 19:25:53 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:26:04 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD163C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:26:23 is sbcl 1.1.12 reasonably recent? 19:26:26 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-136.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:27 yes 19:26:31 thanks H4ns 19:26:51 *yates* is running fedora 20 19:27:30 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: when the going gets tough, the tough get falafel] 19:32:52 mordocai [mordocai@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe70:b749] has joined #lisp 19:35:40 is quicklisp is still being widely used? 19:35:53 yates: yes. 19:36:02 cool. 19:37:32 have we achieved the singularity yet? :) 19:37:51 (while i'm in "ask-a-thousand-questions" mode...) 19:38:00 already past it, in the hyperbolic region now 19:38:03 i figure it'll be done in cl. 19:38:35 where can i speak to this hyperbolic singularity? 19:39:12 /dev/random? 19:39:18 -!- joj581 [~joj581@82.113.98.149] has quit [Quit: Bye] 19:39:28 I was going to say #lisp 19:42:12 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:43:15 how do i install slime? can i do it via quicklisp? 19:43:47 i guess i'm a bit confused - is it .el or .lisp? 19:44:24 wait, let me read the man some more.. 19:44:26 sorry. 19:44:31 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@85.110.81.192] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44:31 yates: it has two parts, some of it is .el (emacs lisp) and some of it is .lisp (the lisp side stuff) 19:44:34 yates: there's both in the slime project. I do recommend using quicklisp to insall it, http://www.quicklisp.org/beta/#installation 19:44:35 the two talk over a socket 19:46:03 In slime, Lisp runs a server, which is called swank. The slime client runs in emacs. Both are included in the slime distribution. 19:46:24 eval and apply are not the same thing but it *is* true that eval calls apply after evaluating all the elements of a list right? 19:46:26 `flet' is an obsolete macro (as of 24.3); use either `cl-flet' or `cl-letf'. [13 times] 19:46:30 and everything should automatically come to be when you do M-x slime, etc 19:46:30 (if it is a function list like (+ 1 2) 19:46:40 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-136.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:59 yates: slime is being updated for emacs 24 right now. 19:47:05 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:47:34 "GNU Emacs 24.3.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.9.10) 19:47:34 of 2013-08-14 on buildvm-17.phx2.fedoraproject.org" 19:47:55 One thing that I really wish SLIME did was load the .el files from the swank server. That way, the versions shouldn't get out of sync 19:48:20 just keep a very simple generic stump loaded in emacs at startup 19:50:14 i have an old elisp load-slime function: http://ur1.ca/gdlv1 -> http://paste.fedoraproject.org/67165/29697113 19:50:27 is that still necessary or can i just M-x slime ? 19:50:54 M-x slime works in 24.3.1 19:51:50 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: activity finished into perpetual failure] 19:52:53 francogrex [~user@91.182.140.103] has joined #lisp 19:52:59 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-46-49.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:30 I think the hyperspec committee back in the 90s were too lax on some issues, for example the macro step. If I were the head of that commitee I would never let such irregular abherrations pass 19:54:53 unpunished 19:55:21 ,guards 19:56:25 macro step? 19:56:44 what's the macro step? 19:57:03 the step macro 19:57:37 oh, ok 19:57:41 what about it? 19:57:51 it's not very useful as specified? 19:58:01 It is technically permissible for a conforming implementation to take no action at all other than normal execution of the form ... who wrote this should be shot 19:58:13 -!- ggole [~ggole@124.149.108.150] has quit [] 19:58:35 I tend to agree, that they "standardized" many empty names without useful standard semantics. 19:58:56 better to leave that to another standard 19:59:37 I fear the committee didn't have a good idea of what a standard was for. They did a lot of describing when their value is in prescribing. 19:59:40 I think I disagree. For tools that are essentially interactive development tools a loose definition seems sane 19:59:47 true, I am imaging them going by alphabetical order and so exhausted towards the end of the alphabet that they start writing crap just to get through the task 20:00:35 they tried to do too much in some ways, and did too little in other ways 20:00:50 that's not a loose definition at all we are talking about.. "if you like doing it fine otheriwse fine too... whatever" 20:00:54 the whole "logical pathname" mess, or wildcard pathnames, etc. 20:01:03 francogrex: most declarations have similar semantics 20:01:17 pathnames end up not being reliable for either low-level or high-level uses 20:01:28 also 20:02:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:19 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:45 francogrex: Right. If stepping makes sense for your lisp environment here's a standard entry point for users. 20:03:06 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-82-8.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 20:03:55 Sometimes the big gaps in the spec remind me of the T in H9Q+T 20:04:30 pathnames are supposed to do something useful, but what that is in unspecified, and so in practice it's not useful at all. 20:06:06 kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:06:19 http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/44215/MIT-CSAIL-TR-2009-002.pdf?sequence=1 20:06:26 Didn't read this paper until now 20:06:26 Vivtron: the "entry point" needn't be in the CL package, especially if has different semantics in every implementation 20:06:35 Constraint propagation is nothing new but this is still a cool paper 20:06:50 he wrote a thesis based on that 20:06:53 it's good 20:07:24 i imagine another scenario at the meeting: they start writing " It is not permissible..." then someone objects "hey I can't implement 'step' it's too difficult and i am a crappy programmer, but still I would very much like to release a lisp implementation..." then ok we'll do you this favor "It is technically permissible..." 20:07:26 What surprised me the most was the existence of so many opportunities for predicate dispatch, dynamic typing, and other very lispy stuff 20:07:55 Fare: I just joined the channel, wrote a thesis based on what? 20:08:00 kristof, in propagators? 20:08:08 Fare: yes 20:08:23 radul wrote his thesis on propagators 20:08:39 I don't know who Radul is but that sounds cool :) 20:09:05 axch, the author with gjs of the article you linked 20:09:26 I'm not a very smart person, but despite the majority of examples of propagators being numerical calculation, I can imagine them being very useful for modeling complex dynamic systems with highly interdependent components 20:10:05 Fare: Oh, I see :) what an honor for him to have worked with sussman 20:11:30 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:11:38 Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:13:03 Big deal! Sussman set up the projector for my Quicklisp talk! 20:13:43 heh. 20:13:49 I'm surprised he tolerate discussion of something non-Scheme. 20:13:51 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 20:13:53 tolerated 20:14:02 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-luxwmhdipovujyyi] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:14:05 Or maybe there's a quickscheme I don't know about. 20:14:39 Well, if he attended the international lisp conference, I'm sure he was interested in Common Lisp stuff, too 20:15:05 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:15:23 Do people not record and then host videos of the lisp conference presentations? 20:15:33 kristof: sometimes yes, sometimes no 20:16:11 -!- Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:16:23 it varies by gathering and by speaker within a gathering 20:16:55 Hm. You'd think someone would record the whole conference. It certainly would be cool for people who can't attend :) 20:17:04 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 20:17:18 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:17:53 i hope to meet many of you at ILC2014 this year. 20:17:57 It's a lot of technical work and a bit of political work, and in my experience it hasn't come together very often at Lisp conferences 20:18:15 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 20:18:32 hiato [~hiato@41-135-76-39.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:18:43 -!- hiato [~hiato@41-135-76-39.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 20:18:56 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:18:59 hiato [~hiato@41-135-76-39.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:22:10 turbopape [~turbopape@197.6.128.7] has joined #lisp 20:25:23 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-185-48.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:25:40 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:26:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-134-69.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:07 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:47 -!- francogrex [~user@91.182.140.103] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:52 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-nagegspywjckmrmn] has joined #lisp 20:26:58 -!- cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:08 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:30:13 -!- turbopape [~turbopape@197.6.128.7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:08 minion: memo for francogrex: what would you do of a CL:STEP in a batch compiler? 20:31:08 Remembered. I'll tell francogrex when he/she/it next speaks. 20:31:32 -!- hiato [~hiato@41-135-76-39.dsl.mweb.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:33 pjb: I think his answer would be "omit it from the specification" 20:32:59 eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:00 -!- eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 20:33:00 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #lisp 20:34:42 hiato [~hiato@41-135-76-39.dsl.mweb.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:35:11 francogrex [~user@91.182.140.103] has joined #lisp 20:37:33 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 20:37:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-231-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:38:35 Anyways as I said already, this chapter specifies the IDE, not the batch compiler. The specification can specify several things. 20:43:42 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:36 mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 20:45:36 blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:17 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:49:48 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:50:09 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 20:50:46 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has quit [Quit: mc40] 20:53:04 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:35 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:59:56 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:00:36 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 21:02:15 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02:55 -!- ahungry [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@158-142.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:03:37 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:07:16 -!- Tordek_ [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dpfoudfwegeykbgh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:07:26 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-189-95.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:08:02 -!- loz1 [~maxvel@93.100.156.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:13:56 -!- axion [~axion@pool-108-4-159-87.albyny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:14:33 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:16:16 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:21:14 gah 21:21:24 I no longer know things I thought I knew 21:22:11 :allocation :class doesn't do what I want it to -- I wanted to have one shared slot per class, but to get that I actually have to specify the slot (with :allocation :class) in each generalized subclass 21:23:39 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-wweenejcglcqiurh] has joined #lisp 21:24:08 Baggers [~Baggers@91.237.34.50] has joined #lisp 21:25:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:25:04 KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has joined #lisp 21:26:21 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:26:59 That's a keyword in DEFCLASS's body, right? 21:27:00 -!- francogrex [~user@91.182.140.103] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:27:08 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 21:27:12 I thought that :allocation :class did precisely what you thought it did 21:27:31 nope 21:27:32 kristof: it's once per slot-definition; which isn't quite the same as once per class. 21:27:35 does it not allocate the slot within the class in which it is declared, just once? 21:27:54 indeed it does 21:28:02 H4ns: i think Krystof wants each subclass to have its own unique 'instance' of the slot 21:28:16 and it sort of has to, but I happen to want the opposite this time 21:28:18 You'd have to write a meta class for that. 21:28:42 or allocate the "slot" outside of the class 21:28:49 cop out, get on with it. 21:28:55 this code is already full of metaclasses 21:29:53 ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@88.231.50.227] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 -!- Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-wweenejcglcqiurh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:33:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:37:36 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:44 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:39:03 Tordek [tordek@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gheoqqobhnbifwql] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 21:41:30 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-202-53.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 21:48:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:48:34 prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 21:50:44 -!- nyef [~nyef@c-50-157-244-41.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving the office.] 21:52:38 wait, so if I have a subclass that inherits the slot, does it have its own copy of the slot, or does it share it with the superclass? 21:52:53 it shares it with the superclass 21:53:12 to have it have its own copy, you must re-specify the slot (with :allocation :class again) 21:53:30 wow. such confusion. much sharing. very tricky. wow. 21:53:34 axion [~axion@cpe-67-246-18-219.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:53 -!- slarti [~anonymous@67-0-129-177.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: slarti] 21:53:55 chuckled a little more than I should have 21:54:20 I suppose I should remove all the :initarg's from those slots, or "interesting" things will happen. 21:54:37 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 21:59:02 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:02:48 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:19 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:08:23 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@88.116.5.210] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:10:30 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:24 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:13:11 -!- ben_m [~ben@chello062178107037.8.12.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:14:02 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:14:10 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #lisp 22:16:18 download [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 22:16:42 -!- download is now known as Guest36688 22:16:55 -!- Guest36688 [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:21:59 downloadico [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 22:22:52 whois download 22:23:00 oops! 22:29:25 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:30:23 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:30:40 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:30:52 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:33:41 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:04 -!- yakov [uid256@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jkeufavcsddwvpod] has quit [] 22:39:31 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:44:15 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-136.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:46:02 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.116.228] has joined #lisp 22:46:33 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has joined #lisp 22:47:28 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 22:49:44 -!- prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has left #lisp 22:50:07 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:50:29 Who is going? http://lanyrd.com/2014/international-lisp-conference/ 22:51:16 And, more importantly, who is submitting talks? 22:53:24 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 22:54:06 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:55:48 -!- CrazyEddy [~bradycard@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:56:43 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:01:55 -!- paul0 [~paul0@179.187.89.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:02:47 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-192.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:01 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:04:07 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 23:06:07 sellout-: if I finish my lisp program, I'll go. 23:06:29 pjb: Whats the program? 23:07:21 https://gitorious.org/abnotation 23:08:21 At first I was thinking I could use gsharp, but the concept of the notation are too different to make good use of the existing gsharp model (I may just use the metafont stuff from gsharp). 23:08:31 -!- downloadico [~user@dhcp206.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:08:36 pjb: Hrmm, where can I read more about this notation? 23:08:37 There's nothing nice to show yet. 23:09:27 pjb: Well, whats the goal of the notation? 23:09:37 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:10:12 For now, https://gitorious.org/abnotation/abnotation/source/309ea5afa60208e9ae3465036978cd98b79849d9:notes.txt might be the only thing there is about it on the internet AFAIK. 23:10:23 CrazyEddy [~subligati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:10:32 paul0 [~paul0@179.187.89.78.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:10:47 pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:26 The principle is that notes are drawn with a beam that's as long as the duration. Measures have thus mostly a width proportional to their duration too. 23:11:29 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@177.224.107.68] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 23:13:05 pjb: Cool. Im working on a music project at the moment, and when working with notation, Ive been thinking about ways to make it a bit more  rational. So this is very interesting. 23:13:19 downloadico [~user@dhcp154.hpc.unm.edu] has joined #lisp 23:13:52 is it correct to say the difference between eval and apply is that eval first "evals" all the elements and THEN does the apply? 23:14:46 theseb: Eval only takes a single form. 23:14:49 theseb: to understand the differences between both, you should read a metalinguistic evaluator. 23:15:37 Like the one in AIM-8: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html 23:16:44 sellout-: watch the project, https://gitorious.org/abnotation/abnotation/ I hope to have partitions displayed before the end of the month. 23:20:11 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:20:22 lman` [~user@120.Red-176-83-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:32 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:20:36 -!- lman` is now known as lman 23:20:39 -!- lman [~user@120.Red-176-83-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:20:39 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 23:21:00 pjb: whoa...that 1st lisp from your link didn't have cons and car...just first and rest if i read that right 23:21:11 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:21:36 pjb: Example is spelling wrong on that page 23:21:52 I tried to keep the spelling of the original document. 23:21:58 Exemple 23:22:04 I might have introduced some typoes indeed. 23:22:04 pjb: hey i'm cool with it 23:22:36 My French fingers would easily type "exemple" instead of "example". 23:24:39 +1 23:31:14 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 23:31:31 [18:20] pjb: whoa...that 1st lisp from your link didn't have cons and car...just first and rest if i read that right 23:31:34 clojure is also like this 23:31:56 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:32:53 pdk: i like first and rest better 23:33:05 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:35:26 nyef [~nyef@pool-108-7-220-91.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:27 Is there any performance difference between those keywords or are they simply synonyms? 23:36:34 rpg [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:23 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:37:31 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-192.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:41:32 synonyms 23:41:56 car/cdr are legacy names from some old ibm mainframe i forget the model name of that had those as register names 23:42:49 <_death> kristof: I expect there to be no difference on any sane implementation 23:42:51 <_death> but it's not a matter of "liking" this or that.. it's more about conveying a message to the reader.. use first/rest when dealing with proper lists, and car/cdr when dealing with conses qua conses 23:44:16 Ah 23:44:25 So domain regularity, I suppose, _death 23:44:28 Of course, if you need the first element of the list which is in the second element of the list you start from... 23:44:37 Er consistency is more like it 23:44:48 <_death> nyef: or nthcdr... or.. 23:45:09 Just remember, you can't (SETF NTHCDR). 23:45:25 That's not a SETFable place? 23:45:27 tricky rules 23:49:45 is there a way to query a function call and see if it's a setf place 23:49:51 aside from trying to setf it and catching the exception 23:50:07 -!- kristof [~Kristoffe@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:50:32 clhs get-setf-expansion 23:50:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm 23:50:52 Something like that, maybe? 23:51:35 -!- downloadico [~user@dhcp154.hpc.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:51:40 <_death> pdk: no 23:54:58 https://antoszka.pl/tmp/3ef3b4eeba654d419d4181e502fe3594b9db4df7.png  any Ltk suggestions welcome  works with 8.5 (friend's code), fails with the shown errors on Tk 8.6. 23:55:35 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:38 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:56:04 (I mean, missing *connection* is an obvious omission in the code, I'm more interested about the FONTCONFIG blabla error  get it also when running small sample snippets from the ltk manual) 23:57:25 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-50-181-199-180.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:59:09 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp