00:00:06 I'm reading about macro-writing macros in Practical Common Lisp. It's not ungraspable, but it does take some head-wrapping. 00:00:27 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:00:32 OldContrarian: fortunately it's much rarer to write macros with idiomatic Common Lisp 00:01:57 p_l: That's reassuring. But I do like the idea of macros; God knows I've spent enough time writing repetetive code in my days... 00:04:00 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:06:51 -!- ldionmarcil [~ldionmarc@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 00:06:59 OldContrarian: yes. It's just that a lot of it can be done with normal functions etc., maybe with a very simple "wrapper" macro (think "with-" macros) 00:08:37 Right. One of the things I'm having some trouble with is figuring out actual use cases for macros, times when I couldn't solve the same problem with a function. I guess this is why it's difficult to explain to other programmers why Lisp's macros are so useful. 00:09:17 <|3b|> most macros could be functions, same way all programs could be implemented on a turing machine 00:09:48 <|3b|> one common use of macros is just to make the interface of something that could be a function nicer 00:10:19 <|3b|> for example (with-foo ...) could be (and frequently is implemented as) (call-with-foo (lambda () ...)) 00:10:45 Or prevent multiple evaluation of arguments in control-flow macros. 00:11:05 Which is an example easy to explain to other programmers. 00:11:14 <|3b|> similarly for things that would otherwise need to use more QUOTE if implemented as functions 00:11:26 Right - "try writing your own 'if' function in C." 00:12:13 <|3b|> OldContrarian: only hard part in C is that you need to extract the then and else clauses into separate functions by hand :) 00:13:04 <|3b|> writing your own 'if' operator would be a closer task 00:13:04 Hehe 00:13:20 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 00:13:23 -!- paroxyzm [~lukasz@178235197233.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:13:33 Yeah, well, that's what I mean I guess - a function that implements the if operator. 00:14:06 *|3b|* 's point is that "function" vs "operator" in C is similar to "function" vs "macro" in CL 00:14:33 I'd say C++, because in C you can't define your own operators 00:14:42 <|3b|> you could write the same IF function in CL, which requires wrapping then and else in functions 00:14:49 |3b|: Hmm, good point 00:14:59 <|3b|> Phoodus: well, that is part of the point where CL macros are nicer than C :) 00:15:20 <|3b|> Phoodus: though you can't define your own operators in c++ either, only change behavior of the existing ones 00:15:34 true 00:15:44 <|3b|> though now that i think about it, 'if' isn't an "operator" in c/c++ 00:16:15 it's a 'statement' I believe 00:16:34 <|3b|> more like a keyword that is part of the definition of a particular type of statement or something 00:17:09 <|3b|> probably need a then clause and ; to make a whole "statement" 00:17:52 <|3b|> (not having to worry about "statement" vs "expression" is another nice feature of CL vs C) 00:17:55 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:19:16 |3b|: I can't say that's something I "worry" about as a C programmer though... 00:19:35 you do, it's just baked down to being reflexive 00:19:40 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 00:20:13 <|3b|> if nothing else, you have the extra effort of remembering both IF and ?: syntax 00:20:16 Well, I do put a space between operator names and "(", I don't do that with function names and "(", other than that... 00:20:19 for instance, you can't put arbitary code inside an 'if' test, because it expects an expression, not statements 00:21:30 Phoodus: Fair enough, but I'm not sure I've ever hand that problem pop up, but I could be wrong. 00:21:46 <|3b|> OldContrarian: try programming in C after using CL for a long time :) 00:21:49 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:21:55 you just unthinkingly and automatically design around it 00:21:56 |3b|: or in java... 00:22:02 |3b|: Yeah, I'll get back to you on that one :-) 00:22:20 Phoodus: That may well be true. 00:22:25 *|3b|* isn't saying it is a huge thing, i'm probably more annoyed by () being in the wrong place, but still annoying sometimes 00:22:32 *p_l* currently looks at c code written by people with definitely non unix background... 00:22:58 ... or PC background, IMO 00:23:03 p_1: What are the tells? 00:23:38 WinSomeFunc(NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,..........,3) 00:23:59 ALLCAPS and visibly separate block that initializes stack/static allocated variables 00:24:33 initializes to 0, that is 00:25:06 while the action is understandable, it looks... alien 00:25:17 might be a good practice, though 00:25:43 sounds like mainframe code to me 00:25:51 Phoodus: bingo 00:26:15 *p_l* still has to fix the JCL that compiles it 00:27:40 OldContrarian: I just noticed that you were talking about "macro writing macros", not just "writing macros". Trust me, if you're at a point where you need to generate a set of macros, it will come naturally. It's one of those things that's hard to learn without a specific use case demanding it 00:28:58 Phoodus: Right. It's not that complex really (since it's basically just recursion), but it's a new way of thinking for me. 00:29:22 OldContrarian: You might want to have a look at "let over lambda" (available online and free in most part) for some extreme macro head-wrapping. 00:30:20 antoszka: Thanks, this book (along with Land of Lisp) is keeping me quite busy enough for now :-) 00:30:27 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.226.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:30:48 LoL :) 00:34:48 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 Alfr [~Unknown@f053069161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:40:04 I think that's enough head-wrapping for one night. Time for bed, see you guys tomorrow. 00:46:15 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:50:10 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 00:54:25 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: execution disconnected because no effect exists] 00:59:50 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:08 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:25 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@ip68-99-254-231.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:06:49 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:08:32 -!- pillton [~user@124-171-222-197.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:27 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 01:13:48 Is there anything like max but with a :key keyword argument? 01:14:52 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.203.106] has joined #lisp 01:16:00 Petit_Dejeuner_: Maybe (reduce #'max foo)? 01:16:39 thanks, that's exactly what I had in mind 01:17:46 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:20:17 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:22:26 <_death> really? 01:22:48 <_death> that'd return the key itself, rather than the object with that key 01:24:11 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:54 <_death> it's more likely that you want alexandria:extremum, although that, too, is sometimes not what one wants.. which is both the object and the key 01:24:57 ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:25:26 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:27:23 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 01:27:52 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-75-188.w90-35.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 01:28:13 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has joined #lisp 01:28:41 -!- robot-be` is now known as robot-beethoven 01:34:37 _death, you're right. I didn't notice because I was busy being confused over something else (using #'max when I wanted #'>), but yeah, extremum is what I really wanted. 01:35:09 It feels like most of my code is just calls to functions from alexandria now. 01:37:05 lman` [~user@215.Red-176-83-121.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:37:12 -!- lman [~user@236.Red-176-83-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 01:37:15 -!- lman` is now known as lman 01:37:18 -!- lman [~user@215.Red-176-83-121.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:37:18 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 01:37:31 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:47:15 fractastical [~jdietz@108-71-93-34.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:42 <_death> https://speakerdeck.com/pyconslides/python-3-dot-3-trust-me-its-better-than-python-2-dot-7-by-dr-brett-cannon <- I just tried CL code equiv to the single-threaded piece in slide #10... takes way too long on sbcl :( 01:54:47 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:37 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@70-89-202-126-invergrove-mn.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:46 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:07:39 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 02:13:12 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:15:33 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:21:53 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.23.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:22:07 cory786_ [~ckoch786@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-62-106.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:28:43 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:05 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-119-201.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:27 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@f053069161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:33:01 _death: (map nil (lambda (n) (expt n 1000000)) (alexandria:iota 20)) takes 72s here 02:34:33 madalu` [~user@c-24-15-84-10.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:31 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:38:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-119-201.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:39:14 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@46.4.240.199] has quit [Changing host] 02:39:14 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 02:39:26 Bike [~Glossina@75-164-166-157.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:39 -!- davazp [~user@70.Red-79-152-117.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:48:46 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:46 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:37 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 03:04:11 -!- defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:10:17 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 03:17:05 LiamH [~none@96.231.226.143] has joined #lisp 03:18:15 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@70-89-202-126-invergrove-mn.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 03:27:29 ... oh wow, STM for CL with support for TSX 03:27:35 How the hell this isn't a bigger news? 03:27:52 which where what? 03:28:04 http://stmx.org/2013/08/31/hardware-transactions-supported/ 03:28:19 apparently tested on amd64 linux with 64bit sbcl 03:29:07 cool 03:29:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:30:28 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:35:58 btw, anyone using mocl - is there any real activity on that project? Unfortunately, they definitely... lack, when it comes to PR and such 03:36:33 "They" presented on it at Madrid in 2013 03:38:07 Xach: I know about the presentation, but I'm looking for a bit more activity than the very minor changes on the website 03:39:13 eh, apparently missed the bugtracker... still, would be nice to know if certain things were simply "not implemented nicely" compared to "not working at all" 03:39:39 still, I wish them the best 03:40:16 maybe he's too busy rolling in piles of that sweet lisper money 03:40:44 haha 03:41:01 p_l: Are you going to paris or berlin this year? 03:41:03 it's a one man thing? I thought wukix had 2 or three people? 03:41:17 Xach: no idea. Will depend on how money will go 03:42:09 Depending on that, and if Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs doesn't fleece me for missing paperwork, I might be able to go 03:43:21 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:47:00 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:29 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.203.106] has left #lisp 03:49:33 <|3b|> dim: actually looks like that debugger you saw is just normal test output that didn't get redirected, and it probably would have continued building fine if you ignored it 03:50:46 nug700_ [~nug700@71-223-119-199.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:25 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-223-107-191.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:53:28 -!- [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:53:52 Xach: fwiw, Berlin looks much more possible than paris 03:54:34 Paris happens shortly before exams and I'll be probably firefighting on my master's thesis 03:55:00 wbooze [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-159-204.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:55:25 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:56:21 -!- wbooze is now known as oleo 03:56:35 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 03:56:49 JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 03:56:53 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:00 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 04:00:23 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:01:40 -!- fractastical [~jdietz@108-71-93-34.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: fractastical] 04:04:17 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 04:05:04 -!- madalu` [~user@c-24-15-84-10.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:09:11 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 04:11:55 btw, has anyone written something akin to Command Processor (of Genera and CLIM fame), non encumbered like McCLIMs? 04:12:05 (and not tied to CLIM, either) 04:14:38 What's encumbered about McCLIM's command line processor? 04:15:30 zimerilim_: GPL 04:15:37 iirc 04:16:03 hmm... appears to be LGPL 04:16:06 Oh, ic. 04:16:07 Still, wary. 04:16:33 and well... it *is*, afaik, rather embedded in the rest of the CLOS machinery 04:16:39 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:17:51 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:18:11 I was thinking of something that could be essentially hooked into anything, whether ncurses, some gui library, or AJAX-style website 04:18:42 fractastical [~jdietz@108.71.94.39] has joined #lisp 04:19:55 (original use case was to implement extended processing of a search form, a'la google) 04:22:30 Although, one of the strengths of the MCLIM and Genera CLIM command-line is that they're an integrated part of the Presentation Manager... Which allows you do do rather interesting things with mouse gestures. But does tie you to (M)CLIM which in turn, as you mentioned, ties you to CLOS. 04:26:43 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:27:00 zimerilim_: my idea was to distill the ability to define, parse, and complete commands, with enough extensibility that adding presentation-style operations would not require rewrite 04:28:27 (presentations over network would be... interesting project) 04:28:27 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:32:04 CrazyEddy [~sulphuryl@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:32:26 slyrus [~chatzilla@64.129.1.15] has joined #lisp 04:42:54 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 04:43:38 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:11 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:59:27 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.226.143] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:01:27 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:03:02 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-180-172.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:03:17 Good morning everyone! 05:04:22 beach: 'morning 05:04:58 p_l: I like your idea of a separate command processor. 05:05:11 Shouldn't be too hard to do. 05:05:52 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.193.191] has joined #lisp 05:06:08 |3b|: Around? 05:06:36 -!- CrazyEddy [~sulphuryl@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:09:03 p_l: What would you do about completion of arguments to the commands? I am asking because that ties in to the presentation-type system of CLIM. 05:10:20 beach: I think I'd make it use a protocol that could be extended for specific input system 05:10:46 + a way to "dump" data about contents of command table 05:10:46 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:15 (so it could be for example transformed into Javascript to be loaded into web page) 05:11:25 Ah, yes I see. 05:12:58 For CLIM3/CLIMatis, I definitely want to separate the association name->command from other aspects that are mixed into tables in CLIM II, such as menus etc. 05:14:01 beach: it reminds me for some reason a bit of a feature in Borland's VCL, where you could define "action" objects and then refer event handlers to them 05:15:01 <|3b|> beach: intermittently 05:15:13 p_l: Hmm. Never knew VCL, but I soft of see what you mean. 05:15:37 |3b|: I was wondering about your comment about CLHS wrt defclass and then make-array. 05:15:55 I have that stuff fresh in memory so if you explain a bit, I might be able to clarify. 05:17:15 <|3b|> sbcl recently started checking types of :element-type arg to make-array differently, which breaks compilation of drei 05:18:04 <|3b|> sbcl now complains if the :element-type is unknown at compile time, i think due to not being able to tell what the upgraded element type is 05:18:51 <|3b|> CLHS specifies some specific places where the type created by defclass should be recognized during compilation in same file, but make-array isn't one of them 05:19:03 Right. 05:19:21 *|3b|* isn't sure what that means as far as how the code should be interpreted though 05:19:34 I think I understood why when I read that passage. 05:20:01 *|3b|* suspects that sort of use just wasn't thought of when the spec was written 05:20:09 I'll read it again and see. 05:20:23 <|3b|> since probably most implementations don't do as much work at compilation time 05:21:15 OK, it says that the class name should be recognized as a valid type name. 05:21:27 But you are saying that's not enough. 05:21:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:21:30 <|3b|> there is also the question of whether it should actually do anything with the type in declarations, or if it just needs to not complain about not recognizing it to be conformant 05:21:41 I think the latter. 05:21:55 Plus, it needs to register the fact that it is a class. 05:22:03 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:23:05 *|3b|* thinks sbcl probably should handle it better than it does, since it misses some optimizations in that case also,but not sure the spec actually /requires/ more than it does now 05:23:22 <|3b|> not sure about the make-array case 05:23:36 Are you saying that for MAKE-ARRAY, it needs more than the type name? 05:24:26 <|3b|> (defclass foo ()()) (defun foo()(make-array 2 :element-type '(or null foo))) <- won't compile-file in current sbcl (if i remembered it right) 05:24:59 I think that is a problem with SBCL. 05:25:11 in current? i thought i bug reported that months ago 05:25:53 It seems to me that the CLHS is clear that it should be recognized as a type name in that situation. 05:26:33 sellout-1 [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:49 i just get the initial-element style warning, in 1.1.12.14 05:26:59 is there an easy way to get a macrolet expansion in slime? 05:27:33 <|3b|> Bike: yeah, this is 1.1.14.x, and make sure you are compiling it in 1 file without a type named FOO already 05:28:41 |3b|: So, in summary, I don't think the CLHS is missing anything. The case of MAKE-ARRAY should not have to be mentioned explicitly. 05:32:16 -!- ConstantineXVI [sxltrs@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:feae:8909] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:33:05 hm, dunno where it went. stassats did the patch, it just stopped some silly failure from happening when you tried to compile (make-array foo :element-type 'thing-sbcl-doesnotknowisatype) 05:33:20 -!- brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 05:33:43 -!- enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:34:27 enn [~eli@codeanddata.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:50 ConstantineXVI [sxltrs@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:feae:8909] has joined #lisp 05:35:06 akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:03 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih_] 05:36:14 -!- |3b| [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:15 |3b|` [bbb@2600:3c00::f03c:91ff:fedf:5b65] has joined #lisp 05:36:19 brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 05:36:55 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:45 -!- |3b|` is now known as |3b| 05:40:34 <|3b|> beach: so would you say it should references to that type the same as if the defclass had been previously loaded? 05:41:31 <|3b|> Bike: yeah, i think it doesn't complain on the bare type, only more complex types including an unknown type 05:41:34 |3b|: Hmm, not sure about the answer to that question. It seems it would be enough that it recognizes that it's the name of a class. 05:42:15 *|3b|* supposes that is enough to know the upgraded element type, since it is probably T 05:42:21 Exactly! 05:43:12 We are talking about DEFCLASS, so it can't be a built-in class. 05:43:13 <|3b|> though i guess '(and foo bar) could upgrade to T or NIL if the compiler is overly smart 05:43:50 <|3b|> T if one is a subclass of the other, NIL otherwise 05:43:59 *|3b|* isn't sure i'd expect it to figure that out though 05:44:05 I don't think it can know that at compile time. 05:44:18 ... because of forward-reference classes. 05:44:25 <|3b|> true, i guess it could change too 05:44:31 yes. 05:44:40 So T is the only answer as far as I can tell. 05:44:59 <|3b|> how about for declarations involving the type? 05:45:10 <|3b|> should it optimize as well in both cases? 05:45:53 ldionmarcil [~louis@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 05:46:36 *|3b|* supposes that is outside what the spec cares about 05:46:47 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:52 I am not quite sure what case you mean here. 05:48:53 -!- fractastical [~jdietz@108.71.94.39] has quit [Quit: fractastical] 05:49:43 <|3b|> probably not a realistic situation, but sbcl doesn't optimize some things quite as well when a variable is declared to be a type from a defclass in the same file 05:50:14 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-236.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:50:38 That ties in to what is allowed to be assumed about things in the same compilation unit. 05:51:11 It would be hard to optimize those cases I would think. 05:51:45 <|3b|> i mean things like knowing the variable declared to be that type is actually of that type, which it has to be since sbcl turns the declaration into an assert 05:52:26 <|3b|> so things like typep or typecase could be (and usually are) optimized out 05:52:37 Sure, yes. 05:52:54 <|3b|> but it doesn't for types created by a defclass in the same file 05:53:29 I see. But I could, right? The CLHS gives it the right to do it, it seems. 05:54:09 <|3b|> yeah, don't think CLHS says anything either way about that sort of thing, as long as it doesn't complain about not recognizing the type in the declaration 05:54:23 I agree with you. 05:55:30 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.193.191] has left #lisp 05:58:50 protist [~protist@105.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:00:19 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:21 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:03:18 ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 06:04:27 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:11:29 dnm_ [~user@184-77-202-69.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:02 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@64.129.1.15] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:13:07 -!- pdk [~realname@c-71-236-103-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:13:23 -!- dnm [~user@184-77-202-69.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:13:37 -!- echo-area [~user@123.112.228.105] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:13:56 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:15 echo-area [~user@123.112.228.105] has joined #lisp 06:15:46 slyrus [~chatzilla@64.129.1.15] has joined #lisp 06:18:11 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 06:19:54 prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 06:22:26 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:22:58 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:23:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:27:43 -!- ubii [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:27:51 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:29:48 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:30:02 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 06:30:56 -!- Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:31:21 Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:04 -!- prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:32:19 ariak [~aria@c-71-193-24-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:03 [F_F] [~IronPytho@187.149.46.34] has joined #lisp 06:38:03 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@187.149.46.34] has quit [Changing host] 06:38:03 [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has joined #lisp 06:39:07 fractastical [~jdietz@c-67-180-20-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:53 jbarker [~jbarker@18.111.95.197] has joined #lisp 06:49:29 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.111.95.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:05:48 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.1.154] has joined #lisp 07:06:18 -!- crixus [~Rob@135-23-80-105.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:08:07 nipra [~nipra@122.177.54.17] has joined #lisp 07:14:43 -!- OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:16:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:17:52 Davidbrcz [~david@191.134.140.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:15 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:22:02 -!- ski_ [~ski@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:22:56 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 07:29:49 hsiaovin [~user@121.9.144.250] has joined #lisp 07:30:14 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:34:35 drl [~lat@125.167.133.233] has joined #lisp 07:35:54 New on http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html : generic function FINALIZE-INHERITANCE and section "Class finalization protocol". As usual I welcome bug fixes, improvements, and new material. 07:38:09 <|3b|> beach: the specialized methods should link back to the GF (particularly when documented as "does what the GF does") 07:38:41 |3b|: Yes, you are right. That problem exists for all the method pages I think. 07:40:01 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:12 I need to figure out the best way to do that. 07:40:58 <|3b|> and in "all the classes superclasses" in class finalization protocol, "classes" should probably be classes' or class's (or whatever is the correct possessive for class if it is supposed to be singular) 07:41:28 Oh. That must be a problem in the original text. I'll look at it. Thanks. 07:41:59 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p73a27ddd.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:42:21 How about I write "the classes of all the superclasses" instead? 07:42:35 <|3b|> class' seems to be the correct singular posessive 07:42:58 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:43:15 <|3b|> i assumed it meant the superclasses of all the classes, or the superclasses of the class (not sure if there is more than 1 or not) 07:43:32 Hmm, yes, you are right. 07:43:56 *|3b|* suspects it is supposed to be singular 07:44:19 yes, so "all the superclasses of the class", right? 07:44:58 <|3b|> i think so 07:45:11 Thanks. 07:45:25 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 07:45:26 Definitely a problem in the original text. Not the only one unfortunately :( 07:46:06 *|3b|* thinks the "class's" earlier in that page should be "class'" 07:48:50 <|3b|> in http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/allocate-instance.html s/desicription/description/ 07:49:16 OK, the first one should be "the class precedence list of the class". 07:49:30 rather than "the class's class precedence list" which is awkward. 07:51:04 <|3b|> and the built-in-class method link is bad 07:53:01 in allocate-instance.html? 07:53:01 "A the moment, there are two entrypoints:" 07:53:05 s/A/At 07:54:00 <|3b|> right 07:57:33 |3b|: Fixed. 07:57:37 abunchofdollarsi: Fixed. 07:57:42 Thanks to both of you. 07:59:02 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:01:46 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 08:02:09 <|3b|> http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-slots.html has what looks like some other markup instead of html: {\bf eql} 08:03:49 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:04:00 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:01 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 08:05:21 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:07 -!- dnm_ [~user@184-77-202-69.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:06:23 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 08:08:23 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@191.134.140.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:10:47 beach: bad link at http://metamodular.com/Books/books.html to 'introcs.html' 08:16:04 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:19:25 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:20:26 reeed: OK, I'll check. Thanks. 08:20:42 |3b|: That's possible. I'll check. 08:22:43 ykm [~ykm@58.146.126.0] has joined #lisp 08:25:31 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:28:30 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 08:30:48 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:31:48 reeed: I removed the two dead links, because there are no pages to link to. Thanks again. 08:31:49 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:31:55 |3b|: Fixed, thanks! 08:32:45 -!- hsiaovin [~user@121.9.144.250] has left #lisp 08:33:05 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 08:37:12 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: resttime] 08:37:17 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:38:27 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 08:44:29 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:45:20 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 08:45:25 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 08:49:21 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 08:49:31 -!- ariak [~aria@c-71-193-24-118.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 08:53:54 OldContrarian [~user@h-234-51.a161.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 08:55:04 vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:04 Good morning! 08:59:25 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:00:43 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:02:21 Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:50 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:03:44 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:04 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:17:40 what do yahl think of writing {'double #(* 2 %)} instead of (let ((h (make-hash-table :test 'equal))) (setf (gethash 'double h) (lambda (x) (* 2 x))) h)? 09:18:45 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:18:46 "nuts" 09:18:56 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:18:59 why? 09:20:10 why isn't it? 09:20:21 <|3b|> #() usually means literal array not lambda for 1 thing 09:20:36 |3b|: yes i overwrote it 09:21:36 *|3b|* would just use (alexandria:plist-hash-table `(double ,(lambda (x) (* 2 x)))) 09:21:57 |3b|: the normal #( seems a little useless as it doesn't evaluate its arguments.... (let ((a 1)) #(a a)) returns '(a a) 09:22:02 i mean as an array 09:22:22 <|3b|> well, there is vector if you want things evaluated 09:22:41 |3b|: in which case you aren't using #( :) 09:23:15 |3b|: the alexandria thing still seems a little verbose 09:23:18 *|3b|* doesn't always want things evaluated, or always put things in arrays that aren't self-evaluating 09:23:35 *|3b|* thinks worrying about verbosity at the character level is a bad idea 09:23:58 |3b|: this is verbosity at the token level 09:24:06 <|3b|> simplify the high-level abstractions rather than worrying about making as many 1 character shortcuts as you can find characters for 09:24:51 |3b|: All method pages should now have a back reference to the corresponding generic function. 09:25:02 Hello OldContrarian. 09:25:37 beach: Hello. 09:25:49 |3b|: i like find the verbosity is high enough that i constantly make association lists instead of hashes...and hashes aren't premature optimization in many of these cases 09:25:50 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:26:54 <|3b|> protist: so make a function like VECTOR to create & initialize hashes? 09:27:02 |3b|: but also....instead of (mapcar (lambda (x) `(this ,x)) '(1 2 3 4)).....(mapcar #`(this ,%) '(1 2 3 4)) 09:27:18 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 09:27:22 |3b|: good point there 09:27:40 prxq [~mommer@x2f6bfa8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:12 the rule of thumb: if you're trying to change ordinary syntax, you're doing something wrong 09:28:39 that's a good one. 09:28:41 stassats: i think sometimes "different things should look different" is kind of nice 09:30:04 <|3b|> your "random reader syntax that is evaluated instead of literal like all the built-in reader syntax" doesn't look different enough :p 09:30:13 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@64.129.1.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:30:59 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:31:13 :p 09:32:04 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.12] has joined #lisp 09:32:15 i wrote some nastier ones...but i'm not sure i'll use them....like (setf #$h{'a} 1) instead of (setf (gethash 'a h) 1) 09:32:35 stealing perl syntax 09:33:05 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:33:25 and (setf #$a[2] 3) instead of (setf (aref a 2) 3) 09:36:37 protist: again, you're doing it wrong. You could instead write: #$protist{ a[2]=3; h{'a]=1; } 09:37:11 haahaha 09:37:19 ie. I would suggest to provide a whole new syntax, instead of toying with little subexpressions. 09:37:51 i like them playing well with lisp expressions 09:38:12 <|3b|> don't forget to update your editor to handle them transparently too :p 09:38:18 protist: (setf #$a[2] 3) sucks, I'd say. No? 09:38:22 or just :set syntax off 09:38:35 -!- stanislav_ [~stanislav@bl22-73-214.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:39:19 protist: consider an alternative: (setf (ref a 2) 3 (ref h 'a) 1); a generic function (setf ref) can easily dispatch on the class of the first argument! 09:40:15 pjb: oooo haha!...nice 09:41:05 See http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/1bab4b5bae1fdca3 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/190d771c0e033a1c 09:44:12 pjb: well that was pretty damned cool :) 09:45:39 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 09:47:23 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:49:50 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 09:50:36 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 09:54:38 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:56:21 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:59:38 -!- protist 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seconds] 10:45:24 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 10:48:45 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 10:57:39 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:05:27 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:06:59 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 11:07:30 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:11:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 11:13:44 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 11:16:23 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@mawercer.de] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 11:16:42 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-82-8.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:18:59 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:22:17 -!- maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:36 maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has joined #lisp 11:25:39 -!- ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:25:44 -!- maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:25:53 maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has joined #lisp 11:30:29 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 11:31:30 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:32:58 Odin- [~sbkhh@erudite.anarchism.is] has joined #lisp 11:44:38 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:44:44 alex580 [~alex@95.76.87.220] has joined #lisp 11:45:23 hi guys 11:45:39 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:45:53 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:07 -!- drl [~lat@125.167.133.233] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:47:29 hello? 11:47:37 hello. 11:47:56 can i ask a lisp related question? 11:48:10 if you want to ask something, you do need to say "hello", nor ask permission 11:48:21 alex580: yes. this channel is about common lisp. 11:48:35 don't need, that is 11:49:16 thanks! the thing is I just started learning lisp and I have to define a function to sort a list (can't use 'sort') and I don't know how to go about that.. 11:49:40 alex580: and what is your question? 11:52:37 how would i do it? not in terms of how to write the code, but more like how to think about it in order to solve the problem.. 11:53:03 So it's not a lisp question at all, but rather you're asking us to solve your homework assignment? 11:54:17 no, i'm asking you to help me solve my homework assignment 11:54:30 use an existing sorting algorithm 11:54:59 what do you mean? 11:55:30 alex580: I think he means that you take an existing sorting algorithm and then you turn it into Lisp code. 11:56:19 What's so hard about googling for sorting algorithms 11:57:00 alex580: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_algorithm in case you don't know how to google for it. 11:57:12 i see.. and would bubble sort work? 11:57:29 Yes, any algorithm can be translated into Lisp code. 11:58:27 so as general practice, could you first write an algorithm in some other language and then try to translate that into lisp? 11:59:32 You could, but Lisp is more powerful that most algorithmic languages, so if you know Lisp, it is probably better to do it directly in Lisp. 12:00:13 In this case, though, there is already a large collection of existing algorithms, so you would take one of those rather than trying to invent your own. 12:01:20 an easy one: (defun b-sort (list predicate) (loop for sorted = list then (alexandria:shuffle sorted) when (loop for (x y) on list while y always (funcall predicate x y)) return sorted)) 12:01:43 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 12:01:49 heh! 12:02:12 I see... only I'm not allowed to use any existing algorithms before defining my own.. not to mention I just started learning it. :P Thanks everyone, i'll go and try to work it out! 12:03:02 stassats: Actually, I don't think that your suggestion qualifies as an "algorithm" because the definition of "algorithm" requires guaranteed termination. 12:03:37 beach: it's guaranteed here 12:03:50 maybe not during the lifetime of the universe, but still 12:04:14 a destructive shuffle would be helpful 12:04:30 alex580: You are highly unlikely to come up with a solution that is not identical to one of the algorithms in the collection indicated above. 12:04:32 oh, it is destructive 12:06:36 alex580: ... so if it is a requirement that you not use an existing algorithm, I think you are pretty much out of luck. 12:07:17 the test should be changed to (or (funcall predicate x y) (not (funcall predicate y x))), to work with duplicate values 12:07:52 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:15 well, the exact statement of the problem is " Write a function to sort a linear list without keeping double values." 12:08:44 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.22] has joined #lisp 12:10:04 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-vxqmcvginfdyehvi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10:15 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-vzlliofmehltssuy] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 stanislav_ [~stanislav@2.83.73.214] has joined #lisp 12:14:10 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:14:45 keen_ [~blackened@p73a27ddd.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:14:56 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p73a27ddd.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 12:19:34 Well, there's an infinite number of sorting algorithms, so if they were equiprobable, there'd be very little chances he would write one that's already referenced. On the other hand, taking into account restrictions in time or space complexity, and in size of the algorithm itself, (and limitations on human imagination), it is indeed probably you will just re-invent an existing algorithm. 12:20:06 Therefore we strongly doubt your teacher forbade you to use an existing algorithm, just to learn lisp. 12:21:43 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-49-108.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:22:36 another easy way: (alexandria:map-permutations (lambda (list) (when (loop for (x y) on list while y always (or (funcall predicate x y) (not (funcall predicate y x)))) (return-from b-sort list))) list :copy nil) 12:23:49 the shuffle one is sometimes faster, but this one is more consistent 12:26:09 stassats: it fails the requirements. 12:26:30 i wouldn't be solving a homework problem 12:27:04 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@109.120.48.112] has joined #lisp 12:30:14 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:30:35 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.1.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:30:36 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:03 -!- alex580 [~alex@95.76.87.220] has quit [Quit: irc2go] 12:35:08 -!- blackwolf [~blackwolf@ool-4574ed7b.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:35:53 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:50 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:38:47 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:40:50 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 12:41:17 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 12:46:45 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:51:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:52:25 -!- Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52:40 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:17 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.243.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:21 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.243.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:00:56 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 13:06:19 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:09:09 paroxyzm [~lukasz@178235197233.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 -!- ltbarcly_ [~textual@li94-204.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:12:54 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:16:38 -!- paroxyzm [~lukasz@178235197233.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has left #lisp 13:20:59 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . 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[~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:57:48 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:59:05 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 16:00:09 I've watched Marco's SLIME tutorial video. It's excellent. And I've been reading SLIME tips and the manual. Any advice on where to get more detail on debugging in SLIME? 16:01:53 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:16 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:02:41 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 16:06:39 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:08:01 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:17 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@65-128-203-116.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:08:52 debug more 16:09:41 yea 16:09:46 break more stuff so you can debug it 16:10:12 And read the source to slime.el, I guess. 16:10:30 that's not a good idea 16:10:47 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:10:53 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 16:11:00 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:11:12 Why? 16:11:39 it's not as fun as breaking stuff? 16:13:37 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:15:05 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:16:42 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:21:32 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:22:55 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:26:07 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:27:26 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-159-204.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:27:52 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:28:08 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:33:36 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:58 aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 16:36:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36:22 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-195-127.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:46:18 echo-are` [~user@114.254.107.157] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:48:43 -!- echo-area [~user@123.112.228.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:49:30 akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:32 Tookae [~other@188.162.64.57] has joined #lisp 16:49:33 hi 16:49:57 nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:46 what was non special form substititon of symbol-macrolet for this use case (let ((test (make-hash-table))) (symbol-macrolet ((foo (gethash 'foo test))) multiple foo setfing)) ? 16:51:10 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 16:53:02 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:59:34 TruthByDenial [~Truthbyde@pool-72-91-153-141.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:16 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:01:53 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 17:03:48 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:08:10 Davidbrcz [~david@191.134.140.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:42 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:11:20 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:47 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:18:24 -!- rk[trans1ort] is now known as rk[] 17:18:42 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:28 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:22:35 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 17:24:24 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:10 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27:14 prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 17:27:29 Tookae: abstracting away that foo is stored in a hash table. 17:27:43 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:34:03 -!- TruthByDenial [~Truthbyde@pool-72-91-153-141.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:38:27 ferada [~ferada@37.221.196.86] has joined #lisp 17:38:33 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:42:22 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 17:42:49 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:30 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:44:04 is there any lisp implementation for plan9 ? 17:44:30 -!- zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-193-82.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:45:51 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@191.134.140.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:50:29 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:57:11 zygentoma [~kvirc@s213-103-194-2.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:19 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:57:37 -!- nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:59:31 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.12] has joined #lisp 18:08:49 keen_ [~blackened@p3b920cc5.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:11:01 pjb: what do you mean? foo it's place i can't just (let ((foo (get-hash ...))) using foo here) 18:16:38 bgs100 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[~vsync@wsip-98-175-216-162.ri.ri.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:40:15 7CBAANTO5 [~ober@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has joined #lisp 19:40:15 -!- 7CBAANTO5 [~ober@zeniv.linux.org.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:40:16 -!- abend [~quassel@75-148-54-129-Oregon.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:40:29 zarul [~zarul@mtb-220-185.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 19:40:56 -!- zarul [~zarul@mtb-220-185.tm.net.my] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:40:59 peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:41:14 __main__ [~main@50.240.210.73] has joined #lisp 19:42:29 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:42:36 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: cl-ppcre 2.0.5, hunchentoot 1.2.23, flexi-streams 1.0.10, SBCL 1.1.14 19:42:49 zarul [~zarul@ubuntu/member/zarul] has joined #lisp 19:43:03 I really like plan9's underpinnings, but I couldn't possibly use it because I hate their (unalterable) mouse bindings so much 19:43:29 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-82-8.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:43:58 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:57 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.254] has joined #lisp 19:47:42 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47:57 Joreji_ [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 19:49:15 emartenson__ [~loke@203.127.16.194] has joined #lisp 19:50:01 Subfusc_ [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:08 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p3b920cc5.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:52:08 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:52:10 xan___ 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zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Client Quit] 20:55:53 Hi! I want to slightly change/override sexp eval behaviour. Suppose we have (defun foo (x) (lambda (y) (+ x y))). I want to (foo 3 5) instead of (funcall (foo 3) 5). Please point me the possibility how it can be done. 20:56:32 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 20:57:08 jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:15 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:58:54 akbiggs [~akbiggs@24-212-189-181.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:17 you could define a read macro on ( to turn (foo a b c ...) into (funcall (foo a) b c ...), but that's weird and would break macros 20:59:27 you bsically want to write your own eval 21:00:09 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:19 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:00:38 Joreji_ [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 21:00:42 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:41 yeap, i'm just want change eval. Is there other way than defining read macro on (? 21:01:53 fractastical [~jdietz@ip-64-134-235-232.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:26 defining a read macro doesn't actually change eval, it's just a workaround. you can't use your own evaluator instead of eval. 21:02:38 i mean, you can write your own, but the rest of lisp won't use it unless you tell it to. 21:02:55 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@2a01:4f8:130:62a2::71] has joined #lisp 21:03:10 heiz: maybe you've painted yourself into a corner with your wish 21:04:05 -!- heiz [bc8622f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.134.34.246] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 21:05:23 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:14 -!- staykov [~wiggin@cable.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:11:14 staykov [~wiggin@pdpc/supporter/active/staykov] has joined #lisp 21:14:25 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:14:31 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:44 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:13 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:19:02 -!- Code_Man [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5059:9740:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:55 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:20:49 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 21:21:19 -!- brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:21:36 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:24:08 axion [~axion@mail.computer-answers.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:17 -!- jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:32:43 -!- chameco_ [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:33:47 segv- [~mb@cpeB-151.mvcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:25 -!- Tookae_ [~other@188.162.64.57] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:35:27 LiamH1 [~none@pool-173-73-123-21.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:37 -!- LiamH [~none@96.231.220.239] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:37:21 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 21:37:46 brandonz [~brandon@c-24-6-4-232.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:54 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:56 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:17 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:25 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:44:37 -!- segv- [~mb@cpeB-151.mvcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:44:56 frgo [~frgo@p5498EC3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:05 jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:44 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@67-220-27-111.usiwireless.com] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 21:52:55 -!- jack_rabbit_ [~jack_rabb@c-50-148-124-212.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:53:15 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:53:29 [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5498EC3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 21:54:54 frgo [~frgo@p5498EC3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:55:19 -!- frgo [~frgo@p5498EC3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 21:55:20 frgo [~frgo@p5498EC3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:47 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.22] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:04:13 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.22] has joined #lisp 22:05:25 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:06:01 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@bzq-79-183-117-215.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:06:22 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:07:41 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:25 -!- axion [~axion@mail.computer-answers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:44 thepreacher [~thepreach@87.112.72.196] has joined #lisp 22:12:14 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . 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