00:00:14 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5025:5b20:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:02:45 redscare: cars don't necessarilly do raw memory access. A list is made up of cons cells which have a CAR and a CDR though, so you can modify lists in-place by modifying the CAR and CDR of the cons cells that make up the list 00:03:39 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:21 the problem is that i'm writing a "gathering" function, so it would be pretty inefficient to "cons as i go" 00:08:38 redscare: what do you mean by "inefficient" precisely? 00:08:57 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 00:09:16 -!- ivan [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09:35 -!- aftersha_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:11:14 ivan [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #lisp 00:12:02 Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:04 well my algorithm is to create an empty "result" list, then go through the input list element by element 00:14:04 for each element in the input list go through the result list and check to see if the element fits in one of the collections, then add it there if it does 00:14:23 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@97-113-7-228.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 00:15:29 Corvidium [~cosman246@97-113-7-228.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:59 redscare: maybe you need to consider hashtables? 00:17:17 making a hashset out of the standard hashtable is easy 00:21:19 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:19 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 00:22:51 slyrus: I can confirm that foil works just fine from sbcl with a few minor tweaks 00:23:20 (joptionpane.showmessagedialog nil "Hello World from Lisp") <== Well at least well enough to do that 00:25:16 redscare: that sounds different than overwriting the list members as you traverse it 00:25:37 are you wishing to remove cons cells as you traverse the list? 00:31:59 p_l: hashtables aren't general enough for my intention 00:32:42 redscare: for testing membership in a set they work pretty well... could be a list of hashtables, too 00:33:23 i think code would explain better than i could: http://paste.lisp.org/+30MJ 00:34:52 does that work for you, but you want a faster solution? 00:35:28 well it seems to be a pattern that comes up fairly often, it's mostly an academic interest in what the "best" way to do this is 00:35:30 also, I think you can replace your inner mapl with member 00:35:34 for arbitrary definitions of "best" 00:35:50 (member item result :test predicate) 00:36:21 your performance will be cartesian based on the size of the result list 00:37:04 -!- hugod` is now known as hugod 00:37:25 if the predicate function can be anything, then yeah you can't easily use a hashtable. However, if you also offer a comparison predicate between results, you could build a binary tree or something for your results as a result search optimization 00:37:57 most lisp implementations also have extensions to the hash table, if you want to provide a hash function 00:39:07 wait are you splitting a list based upon a predicate? 00:39:35 This is written as a combo filter + uniqueness scan, as I read it 00:39:51 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZZ] 00:40:13 but I don't quite understand the structure of what's stored in the result list 00:40:18 in terms of its intent 00:42:02 mjf42 [~mjf@0016cbc6ea6c.cpe.westmancom.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:25 (gather-by '(1 2 3 4 5) #'<) => ((5) (4) (3) (2) (1)) 00:42:40 (gather-by '(1 2 3 4 5) #'>) ((5 4 3 2 1)) 00:45:34 the intent is something like to take '(a b a a b b c c a c) -> '((a a a a) (b b b) (c c c)) 00:45:55 jasom: it's indended to be used with equality predicates 00:46:11 if it's just equality predicates, then hashtables are easily used 00:46:24 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 00:46:40 Phoodus: not if it's not a standard equality predicate 00:46:45 Phoodus: but that doesn't work for complex equality predicates 00:46:49 true 00:47:09 "the equality predicates" vs "equality predicates", the latter was said 00:47:25 redscare: do you actually have a performance problem? 00:47:40 nope, like i said, just academic in nature 00:47:57 ok, i see 00:48:13 *jasom* would just sort first 00:48:56 N log N plus a last pass to gather 00:50:02 Of course that's much slower if you know you have a very small number of groups 00:51:21 if you write a hashing function, then it basically turns into a bucket filling operation 00:51:44 but sort is definitely the easiest/shortest to write 00:52:01 -!- mjf42 [~mjf@0016cbc6ea6c.cpe.westmancom.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:52:11 -!- dnm [~user@67-131-0-251.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit [] 00:52:30 mjf42 [~mjf@0016cbc6ea6c.cpe.westmancom.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:38 your current linear-scan bucket implementation doesn't bother comparing every element to every other, like a sort would 00:52:54 (in unoptimized theory) 00:54:55 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:56:02 redscare: I annotated it with how I would have written your algorithm (I tend to use loop over map) 00:56:08 i would also like to be able to use this on objects that don't have an order defined on them, just an equality predicate, so i think sort is out of the question 00:57:05 that's what a hashing function does; it assigns some arbitrary ordering based on the components that make up its equality definition, to make it easier to optimize 00:57:24 you can probably just look up equivalence class algorithms, since that's what you're doing 00:57:59 If you have less than say 6-ish buckets this will almost certainly be faster than a hash table anyway htough 00:58:51 I annotated with a version using member 01:00:13 -!- lman [~user@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:03:39 Vivitron: that's quite elegant 01:07:12 jasom: thanks:) There was a recent stack overflow question about delete-duplicates which covered some similar ground with interesting discussion. 01:08:18 battery's about to die, but thanks a lot for all the input 01:09:17 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:11:03 Phoodus: a sort doesn't compare every element to every other either; it relies on the transitivity of comparisons 01:11:33 which is exactly why it doesn't work with only an equality predicate 01:12:05 redscare's algorithm is O(N*M) where N is the number of elements and M is the number of buckets; a sort based version would be O(N log N) 01:12:44 so rescare's is asymptotically faster if you assume there are fewer than log N buckets 01:12:52 and slower otherwise 01:17:00 -!- redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 01:19:15 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:20:08 -!- rpg [~rpg@198-74-7-110.fttp.usinternet.com] has quit [Quit: rpg] 01:20:21 -!- tokenrov1 [~julian@209-197-143-117.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:25 kraalquid [~omer@99-46-141-87.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:45 tokenrove [~julian@209-197-143-117.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:30 -!- tokenrove [~julian@209-197-143-117.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:29:40 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 01:30:17 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@97-113-7-228.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:30:39 -!- axion [~axion@static-71-245-156-232.alb.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:32:10 kristof: that's what I was trying to do and, no, it doesn't work so well 01:32:25 jasom: thanks for the tip. I'll check out foil. 01:34:26 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:34:32 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-6.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:38 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:35:13 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 01:35:15 -!- patojo [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-237.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:35:54 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 01:36:14 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:36:16 slyrus: I'll send you my patch in a second if you like 01:36:35 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:36:41 (|java.math|:biginteger.tostring (|java.math|:biginteger.pow mybigint 1000)) => "1322070819480806636890455259752144365965422032752148167664920368226828597346704899540778313850608061963909777696872582355950954582100618911865342725257953674027620225198320803878014774228964841274390400117588618041128947815623094438061566173054086674490506178125480344405547054397038895817465368254916136220830268563778582290228416398307887896918556404084898937609373242 01:37:05 slyrus: you can just tell it to slurp a java package into a lisp package like that 01:37:11 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:33 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:56 jasom: that would be great 01:42:08 slyrus: https://github.com/jasom/foil 01:42:23 It still needs a .asd and instructions for building the java stuff 01:42:46 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:42:48 javac $(find com -name '*.java) worked well enough for me 01:43:53 (setf *fvm* (make-instance 'foreign-vm :stream (usocket:socket-stream (usocket:socket-connect "localhost" 13579)))) <-- that will connect to the server with usocket 01:44:47 why did you choose foil over cl+j? 01:44:59 slyrus: cl+j can't ever work with sbcl 01:45:05 oh? 01:45:09 since sbcl doesn't support foreigh threads 01:45:56 <_death> wrt to redscare's problem, no one brought up union-find? 01:46:55 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.38.114] has joined #lisp 01:51:38 _death is there an available lisp implementation? 01:52:28 *|3b|* thinks sbcl can handle foreign threads if you add some options when building 01:53:17 <_death> jasom: there's cl-heap 01:53:23 -!- jaimef [jaimef@166.84.6.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:53:31 |3b|: and still take unix signals? 01:54:18 <|3b|> jasom: no idea 01:54:20 <_death> jasom: though reading that discussion I see that something close to it has been proposed, and that ordering was too strong a requirement 01:54:56 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-214-148.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:58:27 -!- pjb [~user@AMontsouris-651-1-217-89.w92-140.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:00:32 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:01:26 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:03:22 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:04:02 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-6.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:12 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 02:10:38 protist [~protist@175.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 02:11:04 -!- ngz [~user@91.224.148.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:13:50 -!- samask_ [~samask@184.152.47.248] has quit [] 02:15:29 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B36B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:30 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:55 tokenrove [~julian@209-197-143-117.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:57 <_death> jasom: hmm it's not in cl-heap.. for some reason I thought it had union-find stuff. but then, I also remember Kaz Kylheku's kanji learning program had a union-find implementation 02:18:26 sulisphx [b865e9a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.101.233.165] has joined #lisp 02:18:48 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: cyphase.com] 02:21:14 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 02:21:16 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:24:58 i want to learn lisp programming. i've read a bit about popular dialects e.g. scheme etc. - but i'm looking for lisp in its most fundamental form, would this be 'common lisp'? 02:25:31 fundamental form is silly 02:25:46 i've got a copy of graham paul's ANDI common lisp, should i start here? 02:25:57 minion: tell sulisphx about pcl 02:25:57 sulisphx: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:27:11 KarlDscc [~localhost@p5B2B25E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:27:35 -!- KarlDscc is now known as Guest75733 02:28:17 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@c-98-238-144-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:29:58 thanks for this recommendation, i'm not sure iM wording my question properly. i want to learn "lisp lisp". not a particular metalang / dialect, am i correct to say then that CL is a dialect and that this practical cl you mention is lisp "proper" or 02:30:49 Do you know anything about natural languages? 02:31:07 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B36B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:31:15 Do you know how dialectization is a natural process and Latin isn't particularly better than French in any meaningful sense? 02:34:25 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@70-88-219-233-bisco-environmental-ne-ma.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:34:59 jbarker [~jbarker@70-88-219-233-bisco-environmental-ne-ma.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:35 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@70-88-219-233-bisco-environmental-ne-ma.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:41:31 -!- Guest75733 [~localhost@p5B2B25E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:32 sulisphx: There were lots of lisp implementations, each with their own dialects. Then Common Lisp standardized features of most of them together. Other Lisp dialects like Scheme, Clojure, etc, are outside of that, built on different assumptions 02:42:48 i believe i do understand what you mean by that. however i may be be confused -. for instance, i say i want to learn lisp, and somebody might reply "learn scheme, it's the best way to go". if i understand correctly, scheme would be like a style of programming in lisp, is this incorrect to say? 02:43:10 Scheme has its own language spec that is not compatible with Common Lisp. 02:43:37 yes i see phoodus i understand 02:43:59 I would say "a style of programming in lisp" is not really a correct way of saying it 02:44:09 Scheme is a language in the lisp style 02:44:30 so basically, if one wants to learn "Lisp" he is indeed seeking Common Lisp 02:44:41 It's pretty much the canonical lisp 02:44:48 in practical terms 02:44:55 common lisp is also a language. it's not some platonic lisp thing. 02:45:32 usually when people say "Lisp", they mean "Common Lisp the specific language", not "the family of lisp-like languages" 02:45:50 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:38 The specialization each language takes usually greatly influences how to write well in that language, so while the lisp family of languages look and work superficially similar, the best practices learned in one will usually not translate too well into others 02:49:51 prxq__ [~mommer@x2f64eec.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:02 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:301c:ce89:28a0:368] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:50:33 If by "fundamental form" you mean historical, and not very capable of running modern complexities, then you can look back at John McCarthy's original stuff 02:51:01 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:301c:ce89:28a0:368] has joined #lisp 02:51:34 right. and there are proponents of each family who argue for their own practices. well good then, i guess im on the right track with peter seibel & graham paul's books on CL, for my preference. 02:51:46 sulisphx: Phoodus is wrong. I think the trend is to mean "Common Lisp" when referring to Lisp in here, and there are good reasons for that, but Common Lisp is just one idea of what a Lisp should look like. There are other ideas out there. 02:51:55 It would be accurate to say that there is a scheme style. 02:51:55 Zhivago, memo from drmeister: That worked nicely - thanks. Now I can allow C++ to destroy pointers which invalidates the wrapper on the Common Lisp side - any further use of the wrapper on the CL side simply raises an exception rather than crashing. 02:51:59 sulisphx: You should instead be asking why one would want to learn Common Lisp in particular. 02:52:16 And there is a CL style. 02:52:35 You might compare with C vs. C++ styles, for example -- those are related languages, but with different styles. 02:52:46 kristof: yes, I meant that out in the wild, I've mostly heard "Lisp" used to refer to "Common Lisp". In here, it's far more precise 02:53:02 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@x2f658c1.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:53:13 You might want to use the term "lisp family". 02:53:46 You could use the "C family" likewise. 02:54:03 yes, that's what I use myself out in Real Life 02:54:08 "Lisp" as a specific language should rightfully refer to Common Lisp because it's a direct descendent of the long line of Lisps, and not some attempt to rethink Lisp from the ground up like Scheme or Clojure was. 02:54:20 Personally, I think that's nonsense. 02:54:21 Phoodus: We are real. This is "real life". 02:54:25 Zhivago: Oh? 02:54:36 CL is a syncretic abomination, it is true, but that doesn't make it the one true lisp. 02:54:42 kristof: that's just what a figment of my imagination would say 02:55:07 I didn't imply it was a one true lisp. I just meant that logically speaking if anything should be referred to as "Lisp", it should be Common Lisp. 02:55:24 I'd rather that people use lisp to refer to the lisp family of languages. 02:55:32 Otherwise, lisp is doomed. :) 02:55:37 That's a better use of the term. I'm just not so picky about it 02:55:56 sulisphx: Also notice the effects of seeking semantic precision in this channel yielding commonly-occurring debates of terminology 02:56:50 kristoph , i might, yes. i think i've explained my intention, which would be to find lisp in its "purest" form, as in CL, as it seems is the consensus here if i am not mistaken, not some branch like scheme 02:57:03 sulisphx: Why? 02:57:14 sulisphx: Pure doesn't mean anything to me. Explain. 02:57:16 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:40 non-bloaty 02:58:18 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:33 -!- Bike [~Glossina@c-24-21-88-250.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:58:50 <|3b|> if you don't want a specific concrete "lisp" language, you could try the lambda calculus, but don't expect to actually write programs you can run in it 02:58:52 sulisphx: Sounds like gibberish to me. How do you measure purity? 02:59:00 ^ 02:59:07 Well, lisp isn't lambda calculus. 02:59:11 <|3b|> if you want to actually write programs, you need an actual language 02:59:23 why? well debates on terminology aside, as stated above, my intention is expressed in my question already, i think 02:59:26 You could try lisp 1.5, I guess -- but it comes down to what 'pure' means. 02:59:32 Your question is meaningless. 02:59:37 ^ 02:59:41 <|3b|> sulisphx: could you pick a "pure" car or truck? 02:59:45 sulisphx: as Zhivago said, it's got pedigree in its direct heritage, but it has a lot of legacy cruft encoded into its particulars. Former == "pure", latter != "pure", depending on your usage 02:59:57 [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has joined #lisp 02:59:59 oleo: That would imply having few primitives, but one can have a language with NOT ENOUGH primitives, and not capture the things Lisp can do; is that pure? 03:00:20 jbarker [~jbarker@70-88-219-233-bisco-environmental-ne-ma.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:10 sulisphx: You can't push the terminology aside. You used a question that had terminology in it and expected us to know what you meant. I think it's a poorly phrased question, which is why I ask that you rethink what you mean. 03:01:58 i apologize for my clumsiness, and ignorance. i want to learn lisp programming and i was merely seeking clarification on where to start. that is, i don't want to learn a language in the family of lisp, e.g. scheme - but rather just lisp , whatever that may mean - i meant to inquire 03:02:01 sulisphx: Lisp 1.5 probably fits your description. It's really simple in all respects, and yet... I wouldn't every do anything with it. Because in the end, when you want to do things, you need things. And the more things you need to do, the more things you need. 03:02:15 <|3b|> "just lisp" doesn't mean anything 03:02:19 sulisphx: It doesn't matter which lisp you learn. 03:02:24 sulisphx: Well, there's no "just LISP" except 1.5. And 1.5 is useless. 03:02:36 but anyway, read PCL, learn Common Lisp because it's a great truly multiparadigm language that will change your thinking on programming 03:02:47 sulisphx: The core principles remain largely the same, the peripheral details change. 03:03:01 sulisphx: So, pick one you like, try it, and then switch easily to another. 03:03:46 sulisphx: Since you're confused, let me help you out. Since there's no true lisp, take the three most popular lisps right now (Common Lisp, Scheme, and Clojure) and ask why one would want to learn any one of those over another. And be sure to explain your intentions. Then, use that knowledge to make a decision and learn something. 03:03:47 thank you very much all of you for your clarification and advice 03:04:19 People in here are going to be biased toward Common Lisp. ...There are very good reasons for that, I think, but please recognize that bias :) 03:04:47 In terms of purity, scheme probably has the cleanest design. 03:04:51 psh 03:05:01 Clojure is probably the most useful. 03:05:04 psh 03:05:09 CL has the most historical baggage. 03:05:10 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #lisp 03:05:15 psh psh psh 03:05:19 Bias? Are you somehow implying that Clojure isn't slow, or Scheme is useful for more than just teaching with toy programs? ;-) 03:05:43 wbooze [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-163-221.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:05:50 Phoodus: An accusation of bias does not have any bearing on the truth of statements made with the bias in mind. :P 03:05:59 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-187-135.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:06:16 sulisphx_ [b865e9a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.101.233.165] has joined #lisp 03:06:25 -!- wbooze is now known as oleo 03:07:11 sulisphx: Zhivago's right about the core principles, though. By the very nature of having come from the same family of languages, those three are going to have very similar programming styles. 03:07:31 sorry, client crash. to answer that challenge, well my ambition as a programmer is not grand, and i suspect any of those three would be suitable for my project. 03:08:27 You'll end up learning "Lisp" no matter what. ...But I think it's even better to learn Common Lisp, not just "Lisp", considering there are only a few things that really make a Lisp a Lisp. 03:08:43 -!- sulisphx [b865e9a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.101.233.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:08:50 (and those few things, nobody can agree on ;) ) 03:09:00 *what those few things are 03:09:14 I don't think they're that controversial. Only when one wants to overload the term "Lisp" does it turn into a terminology fight. 03:09:23 -!- kraalquid [~omer@99-46-141-87.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:09:30 i now understand what you guys are saying about there not being one true lisp. i do believe i will start with CL as i thought. 03:09:41 Good luck. 03:10:02 I think a great analogy is with RISC. How do you define what is RISC and what isn't? There's an early reference implementation, but nobody uses that specifically anymore. 03:10:02 sulisphx_: Good choice, nice language. 03:10:11 sulisphx_: cool 03:11:55 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Quit: cyphase.com] 03:13:47 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:33 -!- mjf42 [~mjf@0016cbc6ea6c.cpe.westmancom.com] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:17:04 since my client crashed, can somebody please link that recommended book one more time please- 03:17:39 minion: tell sulisphx about pcl 03:17:39 sulisphx: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:18:10 defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has joined #lisp 03:18:31 thank you again! 03:18:38 Step 1: Learn Common Lisp. Step 2: Get a less-crashy client ;) 03:19:18 hah ya, usually im on ERC for emacs, but right now a friend's cell phone :D 03:19:36 Reading Christophe Roades' paper on generalized specializers. Aren't there.. uh... performance hits with that? Even for relatively simple predicates 03:19:46 JorDunn [~JorDunn@c-24-131-164-73.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:01 Oh! This is secretly predicate dispatch, isn't it? 03:20:55 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.146.52] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:21:12 fp0 [~davebelan@S0106b8a386573a5e.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:15 I like how "generalized specializer" can be used semi-non-oxymoronically 03:22:30 "The provision of this option does not lead to any loss of efficiency for the user of standard generic functions and specializers . . ." Wow! 03:33:00 Question: can you do something like (defmethod generic-function ((arg class)) (let ((bindings*)) ((call-next-method)))) ? Will that introduce bindings for the environment of the next method? 03:33:37 kristof: http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/Projects/dylan-dispatch.htm has some interesting results related to similar dispatch stuff ... but I forget where the actual paper draft is. 03:33:40 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 03:34:16 kristof: but at least that links to his slides. 03:35:49 brucem: "It generalizes previous object-oriented single and multimethod dispatch, ML-style pattern matching, predicate classes, and classifiers." Quite the claim! 03:35:55 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has joined #lisp 03:37:11 kristof: he never published the final stuff, like his x86 code generator ... and he rarely responds to emails. (I'd like to purchase some assets that he owns in conjunction with gz and others) 03:39:07 -!- sulisphx_ [b865e9a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.101.233.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:39:22 Lame! Sitting on all that good stuff 03:40:24 The only tricky part of predicate dispatch is arranging a lattice. 03:41:24 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:41:25 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:41:41 [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has joined #lisp 03:42:05 akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:42:34 prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 03:43:13 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:43:56 Huh? 03:44:11 I thought the point of predicate dispatch was that some things simply can't be organized into a heirarchy 03:44:18 so introducing structure defeats the point 03:44:37 But you probably see something that I don't 03:48:38 -!- jimmyy [~jimmyy@124.150.50.136] has quit [] 03:49:25 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@70-88-219-233-bisco-environmental-ne-ma.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:51:02 cemk [~user@ip70-171-14-23.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:20 Everything can be arranged into a heirarchy, and with predicate dispatch you also need to do this, unless you want non-deterministic results, or to restrict your predicates to have disjoint domains. 03:52:08 So the problem is how to handle automating efficient and deterministic heirarchies for your predicate dispatch. 03:52:35 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:52:39 The simplest approach is to stack them, like cond. 03:52:47 all dispatch candidates called concurrently. Let God sort them out. 03:52:50 But that's also the least efficient. 03:54:27 Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. 03:54:44 Zhivago: You could arrange a tree, instead? 03:55:03 cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #lisp 03:55:04 Sure, provided that you know something about the range of each predicate. 03:55:27 For example, if you have a predicate upon integers, you may know that it is disjoint from a predicate upon strings. 03:55:47 It would behoove you to organize the predicates in such a way that they lend themselves to a tree, then 03:55:47 But not necessarily disjoint from a predicate upon numbers. 03:56:01 Oh, but that's non-trivial for really complicated predicates, hmm? 03:56:08 I guess that goes back to effective system design. 03:56:11 Perhaps, but that requires knowing in advance what predicates you will use. 03:56:29 Oh, right 03:56:30 And generally people want to be able to add new predicates without re-arranging lots of stuff. 03:56:38 Yes, yes, I didn't think of that 03:56:44 So it's a problem ideally handled by the compiler. 03:56:52 I was simply thinking of pattern matching in Haskell or COND structures where you just define all or most of your cases right there 03:56:59 but method definitions usually end up scattered across your code 03:57:25 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:57:27 -!- prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:58:40 key missing phrase being "in order" 03:59:02 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:08 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 03:59:20 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:00:00 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:06 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:00:39 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 04:00:55 Well, if you want cond, you have cont. :) 04:00:57 Alfr_ [~Unknown@f053069161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 04:00:58 er, cond. 04:01:14 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:46 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 04:03:49 Zhivago: Holy cow! The ClojureConj videos are finally up for this year! 04:03:50 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225093138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:05:35 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:29 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:06:39 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Quit: Bye] 04:07:02 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 04:07:35 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:07:43 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:42 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 04:09:00 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 04:09:09 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 04:09:46 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 04:11:49 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:12:41 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:17:11 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:17:46 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.38.114] has left #lisp 04:19:06 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:19:36 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:23 -!- prip_ [~foo@host252-133-dynamic.21-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:33:13 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:33:48 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:35:09 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:30 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 04:36:59 guardianx [guardian@203-206-26-152.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:40:36 prip_ [~foo@host52-121-dynamic.13-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:41:49 thepreacher [~thepreach@87.115.148.197] has joined #lisp 04:43:13 enticeing [~user@173.218.58.60] has joined #lisp 04:43:18 Hello! 04:43:40 AngryBeers [~AngryBeer@200.79.253.35] has joined #lisp 04:44:08 -!- guardianx [guardian@203-206-26-152.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:51 redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:28 is anyone familiar with the slime debugger? I have a relatively complicated function, (declare (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0))), and i call break within a let* statement 04:46:49 that let* declares two variables, and the second one does not appear to be available for inspection 04:53:27 jbarker [~jbarker@70-88-219-233-bisco-environmental-ne-ma.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:34 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih_] 04:55:09 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:33 <|3b|> redscare: depends on compiler more than slime 04:55:57 <|3b|> redscare: (debug 3) usually helps with that, but some might still get rid of completely unused bindings 04:56:05 *AngryBeers* cums inside of redscare's ass and then slurps up the cum-diarrhea mixture with a straw straight out of his rectum 04:56:08 oh yeah 04:56:17 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:00:46 -!- cemk [~user@ip70-171-14-23.ga.at.cox.net] has left #lisp 05:05:12 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 05:07:13 can you step forward to where the variable is initially used? It should be manifest by then 05:08:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:08:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:09:34 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:49 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:11:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:00 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:00 alezost [~user@128-70-204-126.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:34:40 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:06 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:25 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:36:01 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:16 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:16 does CL have a netcat alternative? 05:36:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:01 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:15 i need to send some text to a port 05:37:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:37:51 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:41 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:39:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:02 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit 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[~mhb@c-50-162-101-66.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:20 hmm inferior-shell looks good 06:13:34 fractastical [~jdietz@c-50-174-63-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:15:22 -!- enticeing [~user@173.218.58.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:15:41 -!- redscare [~Adium@ool-435634f3.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:19:31 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@bas1-kanata16-1279595928.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:23:23 paul0 [~paul0@177.42.52.206] has joined #lisp 06:31:05 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:35 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:54 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:36:07 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:41:57 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:45:11 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:14 lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:30 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-180-172.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:46:40 Good morning everyone! 06:53:38 leo2007 [~leo@221.220.128.204] has joined #lisp 06:58:14 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.90.36] has joined #lisp 06:58:21 -!- leo2007 [~leo@221.220.128.204] has quit [Client Quit] 07:00:03 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:01:57 -!- neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:04:04 -!- lsdf [U2FsdGVkX1@ma.sdf.org] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:07:29 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:07:29 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:07:29 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:08:41 inside an .asd file: (licence "Touch and die") 07:09:32 hi beach 07:24:05 nipra [~nipra@122.177.23.172] has joined #lisp 07:24:51 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:25:31 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.254] has joined #lisp 07:33:29 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 07:35:41 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:47 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 07:40:25 -!- effy [~x@123.118.174.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:45:43 effy [~x@222.131.153.255] has joined #lisp 07:47:37 elderK [~k@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #lisp 07:48:03 Hey guys. When you define a structure with defstruct, it creates a constructor function. I.e. make-foo 07:48:10 When you define a class, it doesn't? 07:48:24 Is there a way to have it generate one or do you generally always create an instance of a class via make-instance? 07:49:03 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 07:49:33 -!- pjb is now known as Guest75381 07:49:40 -!- Guest75381 is now known as pjb` 07:49:54 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 07:50:51 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 07:51:03 elderK: if you feel pain, you should write a macro. 07:52:06 -!- ndrei [~avo@83.142.149.227] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:52:27 (defmacro define-class (name superclasses slots &rest options) `(progn (defclass ,name ,superclasses ,slots ,@options) (defun ,(intern (concatenate 'string (symbol-name 'make-) (symbol-name name))) (&rest args &key &allow-other-keys) (apply (function make-instance) ',name args)) ',name)) 07:54:05 *|3b|* usually uses make-instance 07:54:06 :) So the only way, without defining a macro, is to use make-instance or write make-foo yourslf? 07:54:11 :) Thanks guys. 07:55:17 -!- effy [~x@222.131.153.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:56:16 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:20 effy [~x@222.131.152.119] has joined #lisp 08:00:02 -!- MightyJoe [~joe@189.153.11.238] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 08:00:35 -!- resttime [~resttime@c-50-158-65-143.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:00:41 MightyJoe [~joe@189.153.11.238] has joined #lisp 08:02:48 -!- MightyJoe [~joe@189.153.11.238] has quit [Client Quit] 08:03:11 MightyJoe [~joe@189.153.11.238] has joined #lisp 08:04:29 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:05:29 CrazyEddy [~portably@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:05:43 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:08:27 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:06 elderK: there's a better way than writing a macro or using a macro such as defun to write it yourself. Get a little magnet, and flip the bits on your hard disk by hand! 08:11:15 Now, perhaps with CLOS/MOP there would be an alternative, where you'd define an :after method to add the make-foo function when a class foo is created. 08:12:01 But I don't know if it'd be possible for standard-object. Perhaps you'd have to make a specific meta-class. 08:14:01 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16:01 pjb: Individual Lispers are fairly rational, but taken as a group, their behavior is bizarre. You and I discuss LispOS, then they complain that they want to know what we discuss, so you create a mailing list. Then they complain that the mailing list is dead. Different individuals of course. 08:16:05 -!- JorDunn [~JorDunn@c-24-131-164-73.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:16:26 :-) 08:16:28 JorDunn [~JorDunn@c-24-131-164-73.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:30 vaporatorius [~vaporator@250.Red-88-5-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:17:33 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 08:23:42 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:28:26 There's always going to be people complaining, no matter what. 08:29:29 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:29:56 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:35:37 and people complaining about the people complaining ;) 08:36:26 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:34 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:37:45 leo2007 [~leo@221.220.128.204] has joined #lisp 08:40:12 Indeed. 08:44:16 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 08:45:34 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.1.154] has joined #lisp 08:45:46 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:46:38 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:6813:a1c3:dfab:b797] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:48:27 -!- stuckie [~stuckie@88.208.208.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:55:27 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 08:56:07 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:57:29 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 08:57:35 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:58:56 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 08:59:08 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:12 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.90.36] has left #lisp 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10:41:29 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:42:43 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:46:20 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@187.Red-79-157-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 10:49:59 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:52:36 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:52:36 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:53:01 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:53:07 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:53:27 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:53:33 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:53:46 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 10:53:49 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:54:46 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 10:54:48 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:55:46 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 10:56:19 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:57:16 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 krfantasy [~krfantasy@li592-201.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:27 pjb: FYI: I am back to working on SICL; mostly on bootstrapping issues at the moment, but first-class environments is part of those issues, and that is related to our LispOS discussion. 10:59:49 -!- lyanchih_ [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih_] 11:03:07 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:53 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 11:08:05 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:08:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:22 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:09:59 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 11:11:10 fractastical [~jdietz@c-50-174-63-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:14 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:12:18 Happy New Year, #lisp 11:12:22 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 11:12:39 Hi splittist_. To you too! 11:13:18 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:51 '(you too) 11:17:33 -!- Guest61256 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:9138:933e:102b:a654] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:19:02 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:27 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:20:31 -!- fractastical [~jdietz@c-50-174-63-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: fractastical] 11:23:38 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:24:56 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:35:16 Am I the only one having problems reaching tunes.org? 11:36:00 You're not. 11:36:09 The Internet is not meshed enough. 11:36:23 How so? 11:37:13 It's too easy to cut out a country from the Internet, or to filter out or censor parts of it. 11:37:21 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:37:35 I see. But don't you think tunes.org is just down? 11:38:02 Something probably confused lisp with child porn. 11:38:08 I don't think it, because I can't access stanford.edu since yesterday either. 11:38:21 Oh! 11:40:23 I can ping both tunes.org and stanford.edu and they answer, though the answer from tunes.org is indicated as bespin.org. 11:40:45 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 11:40:56 So perhaps tunes.org just doesn't handle http requests right now. 11:41:03 Perhaps somebody is again playing tricks with the routing tables? 11:41:39 http://www.akamai.com/html/technology/dataviz1.html 11:43:34 -!- milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 11:43:36 pjb: All I see on that site is gray and black. 11:43:41 milosn_ [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has joined #lisp 11:43:43 ... and some text. 11:43:57 -!- Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:44:20 Petit_Dejeuner_ [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:36 Yes, it doesn't seem as responsive as I expected. On another page, it says that internet usage is 67% above normal. 11:44:47 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:45:49 This one shows the cyberattacks in real time: http://www.sicherheitstacho.eu/?lang=en 11:47:58 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.3] has joined #lisp 11:50:08 yahoo is acting up too 11:52:19 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:53:24 -!- mhb [~mhb@c-50-162-101-66.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 11:54:47 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-21-198.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55:50 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:56:41 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:56:43 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:56:59 pjb: and... how do they measure that? 11:57:45 They have sondes. 12:00:57 -!- milosn_ [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:04:37 It seems there's a bunch of DDOSing going on right now 12:05:29 -!- krfantasy [~krfantasy@li592-201.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 12:06:22 (Also useful http://www.digitalattackmap.com/#anim=1&color=0&country=ALL&view=map ) 12:09:37 milosn [~milosn@94.12.79.143] has joined #lisp 12:13:12 -!- stanislav_ [~stanislav@bl22-73-214.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:13:25 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:21:15 i have seen transpose defined as (mapcar #'list x) before....but if i (transpose (transpose x)) i don't get x 12:21:34 does anyone have an idea for transpose that is the inverse of itself? 12:21:55 specifically in the case of x='(1 2 3) 12:22:15 but generally for x=list of lists and so on 12:25:27 protist: this transpose is defined on matrices, not on vectors. 12:26:49 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:27:04 (defun transpose (x) (apply (function mapcar) (function list) x)) (transpose (transpose '((1) (2) (3)))) --> ((1) (2) (3)) 12:40:57 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:47 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.174.36.76] has joined #lisp 12:41:47 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.174.36.76] has quit [Changing host] 12:41:47 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 12:42:58 maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has joined #lisp 12:47:29 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.205.22] has joined #lisp 12:47:55 KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B25E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:13 ggole [~ggole@58-7-119-110.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:49:45 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 12:52:01 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:20 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has quit [] 12:57:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:36 dmitry [~textual@178.162.95.192] has joined #lisp 13:02:30 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:05:17 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:10:37 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 nilsi_ [~nilsi@60.172.113.73] has joined #lisp 13:14:01 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:16:09 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@60.172.113.73] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:17:30 zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:05 nilsi_ [~nilsi@60.172.113.73] has joined #lisp 13:23:56 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:54 -!- Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-76-156.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:31:49 -!- igorww is now known as igorw 13:32:03 -!- igorw [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 13:32:03 igorw [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 13:35:41 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.245.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:36:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:39:42 pjb: what an exciting "transpose" implementation! So cool! I wonder how one could find this way to write it. 13:41:57 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:42:27 pjb: so apply is used to sort of drop outer braces of list of lists. Nice trick. 13:45:18 -!- dmitry [~textual@178.162.95.192] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 13:47:08 LiamH [~none@96.231.226.143] has joined #lisp 13:47:34 Notice however that will work only on "matrices" of dimension less than call-arguments-limit. 13:50:53 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:52:03 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:52:53 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:55:50 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:56:05 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:59:13 samask [~samask@184.152.47.248] has joined #lisp 13:59:14 samask_ [~textual@184.152.47.248] has joined #lisp 14:00:25 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:04:53 pjb: yes, I see 14:06:40 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.42.52.206] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:09:10 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elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:28:13 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:27 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:28:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:29:55 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:30:49 vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:31:23 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:33 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 17:31:51 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:33:16 vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:34:01 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:35:16 elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:35:50 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:36:39 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:37:23 akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.133] has joined #lisp 17:37:34 vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:37:56 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38:19 vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:38:44 -!- other_nick-37 [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:52 Is anyone aware of source-to-source translation tools written in Common Lisp to manipulate programs in other languages? 17:39:30 isn't there a lisp->objective c deal 17:39:52 ah 17:40:02 there's tinylisp and nu but those aernt the same 17:40:14 Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:40:27 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:40:31 drmeister: jwacs is such a thing 17:40:54 drmeister: sort of. it adds continuation syntax to javascript and compiles to standard javascript. 17:41:36 elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:42:04 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:42:35 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:42:46 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43:17 vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:43:48 -!- ck is now known as ck`` 17:44:31 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:45:48 vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:46:15 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:46:47 elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:46:52 Ok, thanks! 17:47:01 drmeister: http://gabriel.kerneis.info/software/cpc/, the first version of which was in CL but they rewrote it in ocaml 17:47:33 see http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/cl-yacc/ 17:48:33 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:49:32 vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:49:37 -!- Sourceless [~Sourceles@milan.cs.york.ac.uk] has left #lisp 17:50:51 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:51:07 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:51:20 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 17:52:05 vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:52:35 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:53:15 elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has joined #lisp 17:53:17 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:53:31 -!- elfenixtorres [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:41 -!- vantage|home [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:55:20 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 17:56:13 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:57:05 -!- vantage|2 [~vantage@62.4.154.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:58:28 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:37 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:01:44 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:02:02 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42AE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 18:02:24 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04:07 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:04:08 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:05:00 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:36 akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.133] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:37 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:38 fe[nl]ix: Thanks - I use cl-yacc and I'll look at the other one. 18:09:16 I'm looking for CL code that does source-to-source translation. 18:10:06 How would one best specify a pattern to look for in an Abstract-Syntax-Tree. 18:10:20 slyrus [~chatzilla@udp047553uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has joined #lisp 18:11:47 hi lisp 18:12:01 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-119-110.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 18:12:15 drmeister: You might want to use terms as in term-rewriting systems. 18:12:40 Hello prim. 18:13:07 defdeafy [~defdeafy@179.215.106.241] has joined #lisp 18:14:05 prim: Are you new here? 18:14:06 drmeister: you might ask the author for the original implementation of cpc 18:14:47 beach: i lurk 18:16:03 prim: That's fine. Welcome anyway. 18:16:16 Lurk for Common Lispy reasons or interested in other dialects? 18:16:26 beach likes to unearth lurkers 18:17:01 fe[nl]ix: Of course. They represent potential hackers :) 18:17:59 drmeister: the original repo is still present http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/repos/cpc 18:18:20 it's a darcs repository 18:18:41 i'm studying common lisp 18:18:49 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 18:19:01 fe[nl]ix: Thanks - I'm looking at it. 18:20:13 prim: Good idea! 18:21:09 killmaster [~killmaste@70.105.249.5.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:23:56 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:24:00 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:06 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:44 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:59 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:36:17 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:37:04 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:41:56 -!- akenisuto [~akenisuto@HSI-KBW-37-209-74-126.hsi15.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:35 -!- cemk [~cole@ip70-171-14-23.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:46:27 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:46:52 -!- kslt1` [~karl.sier@netblock-68-183-37-80.dslextreme.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:52:00 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:55:18 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:55:32 cemk [~cole@ip70-171-14-23.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:02 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:56:18 fe[nl]ix: drmeister: there's a git repo: 18:56:18 Cloning into 'cpc'... 18:56:18 remote: Counting objects: 29518, done. 18:56:18 remote: Compressing objects: 100% (6819/6819), done. 18:56:22 remote: Total 29518 (delta 22902), reused 28996 (delta 22504) 18:56:25 Receiving objects: 100% (29518/29518), 7.74 MiB | 6.86 MiB/s, done. 18:56:28 18:56:31 fe[nl]ix: drmeister: there's a git repo: git clone git://git.wifi.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/cpc.git 18:58:51 pjb: please don't pase shell output 18:59:09 and that's the Ocaml version 19:00:10 oh right, he's not a pure lisper :-) 19:00:27 -!- stanislav_ [~stanislav@bl22-73-214.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:03:19 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:03:43 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:47 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:09:19 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:09:33 __paul0 [~paul0@200.146.127.216.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 19:10:39 -!- _paul0 [~paul0@187.112.248.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:13:15 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:20:17 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:20:52 chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 -!- prxq__ is now known as prxq 19:24:47 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f64eec.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:25:04 prxq [~mommer@x2f64eec.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 19:25:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:25:29 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:27:39 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:18 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:32:30 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32:38 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:13 -!- gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:15 gigetoo [~gigetoo@c83-250-61-4.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:31 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:37:49 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:38 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:21 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:02 begd9001 [46d14581@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.209.69.129] has joined #lisp 19:43:33 fractastical [~jdietz@c-50-174-63-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:00 i'm editing a .lisp file in gnu emacs, i'm in lisp mode, how can i bring up an interactive lisp prompt buffer? 19:44:47 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 19:44:52 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:15 begd9001: M-x inferior-lisp 19:45:27 begd9001: however, you should take a look at slime. 19:45:38 minion: tell begd9001 about slime 19:45:38 slime: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/slime 19:45:42 meh 19:46:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:46:22 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #lisp 19:46:59 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 19:47:15 prxq thanks 19:47:23 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:42 begd9001: which lisp implementation are you using? 19:48:37 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A688EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:48:53 cl 19:52:23 ok, which cl? :-) sbcl, clisp, ecl, ...? 19:53:04 stanislav_ [~stanislav@bl22-73-214.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 19:55:40 jsambr [18100c46@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.16.12.70] has joined #lisp 19:55:52 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 19:56:05 i don't know, i'm new, studying a couple books on ANSI Common Lisp. i've been evaluating statements with C-x C-e, but i need an interactive prompt now. 19:56:10 -!- samask [~samask@184.152.47.248] has quit [] 19:56:21 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:27 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 19:56:55 -!- chameco [~samuel@cpe-67-246-148-164.stny.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:59:16 begd9001: when you run inferior-lisp, what does the buffer with the interactive promtp (REPL) say? It should display the welcome message from the cl implementation 19:59:22 Can SLDB indicate the next form to be evaluated by highlighting the form in my source file? When I step, I get a brief flash of highlighting, then it disappears. 19:59:44 i'm used to opening a terminal and typing python3 :( 20:00:51 -!- fractastical [~jdietz@c-50-174-63-10.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: fractastical] 20:01:01 begd9001: you will be up to speed in CL fairly fast. It's not that hard, just different. 20:01:07 oddly, when i mx inferior-lisp i get searching for program: no such file or directory, lisp 20:01:36 gnu emacs vs 24.3 20:01:40 this means that you need to tell emacs which lisp implementation you want to use. What OS are you on? 20:02:03 gnewsense 3 20:02:43 erm, debian parkes basically 20:04:37 ok, the usual way to set cl up is to 1) install sbcl (recomendable if you are on x86-whatever) 2) install quicklisp 3) install quicklisp-slime-helper 20:05:05 "apt-get install sbcl" should work, I think. 20:05:45 quicklisp is over here: http://www.quicklisp.org/ 20:06:29 is only available from another source 20:06:30 However the following packages replace it: 20:06:30 sbcl-source sbcl-doc 20:06:30 20:06:33 20:06:38 -!- em [~em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:06:45 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@75-146-118-109-Minnesota.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:24 then it is better to install the binaries from sbcl.org 20:07:32 prim: are you begd9001 20:07:51 same OS 20:08:11 going 2 sbcl ty 20:08:22 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:08:46 prim: heh, ok 20:13:46 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] 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seconds] 21:34:06 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-180-172.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 21:35:08 Hi. I have a small piece of code that does not work as I want. http://paste.lisp.org/display/140787. I would like make-lambda to create a lambda that capture passed value of v. But it appears to track current state of what v was pointed to. 21:35:54 How do I "capture only current value"? 21:36:14 akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.134] has joined #lisp 21:37:13 -!- zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:38:32 STilda: you seem to NOT know what you want actually. 21:38:39 You ARE capturing V. 21:38:54 But you seem to want to be capturing instead (vect1-x v). 21:39:07 So what is it really you want to capture? 21:40:13 Also, if you really want to capture (vect1-x v) then why don't you just pass x to make-lambda, instead of v? 21:41:38 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 21:42:22 Also suspicious, is the name: make-lambda. What kind of name is it? What this function should really do? 21:42:28 pjb: I can pass x instead of v but behavior remains the same. 21:43:02 it should return a lambda 21:44:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140787#1 21:44:26 when I call make-lambda the value of x inside those structures equal to 0. I want f to always return that 0. But it return 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 21:44:38 STilda: a lambda is a function is code is data is anything! 21:44:39 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:40 -!- klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:44:58 make-lambda = make-thing = make-stuff = make-smurf. 21:45:28 STilda: you should beware, in English (and other natural languages), a lot of words don't mean anything. They're just smurf place holders. 21:45:49 <|3b|> STilda: if you want to return a specific value store that value and return it 21:46:31 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 <|3b|> either passing the value you want directly like pjb did, or extract it and store it in a binding outside the lambda in make-lambda 21:48:05 A function should do a single thing. It should not do two things, like extract data and build an abstraction. 21:48:20 Choose one or the other, make two functions and combine them! 21:49:11 Of course, if you call your functions make-smurf do-smurf and smurf-smurf, you won't notice if your smurfs smurf one or two smurfs. 21:50:25 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:51:56 <|3b|> pjb: wouldn't combining them involve doing 2 things? 21:51:59 akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.133] has joined #lisp 21:52:09 :-) 21:52:26 The combination would come upon when doing a third thing. 21:52:27 <|3b|> pjb: or does VECT1-X not count as a function, so we should write a function to call vect1-x 21:52:44 <|3b|> then write another function to call that 21:52:53 But the point is that it could be vect1-x or vect2-y or 42 or something else. 21:52:54 i get a Undefined type: (OR NULL TRANSITION) for package Drei/cl-automaton specifically for the file state-and-transition.lisp there or so 21:54:02 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC97681.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:54:07 tho it's define as a class therein... 21:54:16 pjb: ok, why this does not work? http://paste.lisp.org/display/140787#2 21:54:32 (defclass transition ().... it does not make it a type ? 21:54:50 <|3b|> STilda: what would you consider "working"? 21:55:11 <|3b|> STilda: it assigns to an undefined variable, so its behavior is undefined according to the spec 21:55:25 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 21:55:25 paroxyzm [~lukasz@178235197233.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lisp 21:55:28 STilda: draw diagrams with litle boxes. 21:55:45 oleo: yes, it makes it a type. 21:55:48 <|3b|> though since you never read that variable, the assignment wouldn't have any effect if it were valid 21:56:07 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:30 |3b|: it track current value of point. I do not want that. 21:56:48 <|3b|> STilda: then don't do that 21:57:00 pjb: ok, seems I get it, I have to make a copy of struct explicitly. 21:57:06 <|3b|> if you pass it a specific object, then store that object, then return it, you get the same object back 21:57:14 STilda: If that's what you want, yes. 21:57:17 <|3b|> if you modify that object, it is still the same object 21:57:51 With a name such as make-lambda, and no docstring, there's no way to know the *what* (you want). 21:57:52 <|3b|> if you don't want that, you need to do something else... either don't modify the stored object, or store something else 21:58:00 only the *how* you do it is written. 21:58:21 <|3b|> that too, meaningless names make it harder to fix things 21:59:48 ok i should have said i'm using the git sbcl from yesterday or so.... 22:00:15 so something broke or some new addition which is not back compat ? 22:00:49 |3b|: pjb: ok, now I understand my mistake, thank you. But why make-lambda is meaningless? It creates a function object. That is what I want it to do. 22:01:38 Because there's already an operator to make lambdas: CL:LAMBDA. 22:02:04 <|3b|> oleo: sbcl changed how it handled unknown types in make-array, not sure if the changes are bad or if the drei code was broken and it just didn't notice before 22:02:17 <|3b|> STilda: why not just return (lambda()) then? 22:02:22 everything is a function object, since code = data. (you can consider any data item to be a function taking any argument and returning this data item, ie. x = (constantly x). 22:02:33 <|3b|> STilda: you don't say anything about /which/ lambda it returns 22:02:46 <|3b|> STilda: so as long as it returns a function, you can't say it is wrong 22:03:02 It would be more interesting if the functions returned were cons cells: (defun kons (a d) (lambda (k) (funcall k a d))). 22:03:03 <|3b|> STilda: but you seem to expect it to return a specific function, with specific behavior 22:03:22 But if you called it make-lambda, it wouldn't mean anything! 22:03:24 pjb: ok, that makes sense, sorry I did not clean it up completely. I extracted this code from my real stuff. There was a reason to have a separate make-lambda. 22:03:35 <|3b|> STilda: there is no way for us to figure out which function and what behavior from the name "make-lambda" though 22:03:51 (defun make-lambda (a d) (lambda (k) (funcall k a d))) ; is plain wrong! Yes, it makes a lambda, but that doesn't say anything. What it REALLY does, is to return a cons cell! 22:04:07 <|3b|> STilda: and don't forger you will be on the side that needs to figure it out from the name at some point in the future when you try to read the code again :) 22:05:15 -!- cemk [~cole@ip70-171-14-23.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:05:16 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:05:36 [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 |3b|: ok, :-) 22:06:03 thank you guys! 22:06:39 <|3b|> hmm, not sure if that make-array thing is a bug in sbcl or not, seems to fall through a hole in the spec 22:07:04 <|3b|> "the compiler must make the class name be recognized as a valid type name in subsequent declarations (as for deftype) and be recognized as a valid class name for defmethod parameter specializers and for use as the :metaclass option of a subsequent defclass. " 22:07:36 <|3b|> doesn't say anything about MAKE-ARRAY or other uses of the type name though, but seems like the intent is that they should recognize it also 22:07:57 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:09:02 ered [~ered@184-23-27-241.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:07 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:14:15 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:14:38 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:16:40 dnm [~user@184-77-202-69.war.clearwire-wmx.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:01 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@75.98.19.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:20:17 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-108.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:50 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:24:31 -!- __paul0 [~paul0@200.146.127.216.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:25:26 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 22:27:26 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6B43A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:59 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 22:32:56 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 22:36:27 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 22:37:26 klltkr [~textual@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:38:34 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-236.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:07 -!- prim [~user@unaffiliated/prim] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42:19 -!- hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:42:45 __paul0 [~paul0@186.222.43.212] has joined #lisp 22:43:55 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 22:45:52 Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded. 22:46:05 can't backport sbcl from sid into wheezy today... 22:46:11 zimerilim_ [~rett@64.124.28.131] has joined #lisp 22:46:44 sbcl-1.1.14/tests/threads.impure.lisp is the failing test 22:50:09 -!- jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:50:41 -!- __paul0 [~paul0@186.222.43.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:07 <|3b|> dim: can you tell where in that file it failed? 22:52:02 I did quit already, didn't backtrace it 22:52:23 <|3b|> quit? 22:52:38 the sbcl process with the restart prompt 22:52:57 *|3b|* wouldn't expect one of those when running tests 22:53:13 <|3b|> do you still have any of the output visible? 22:53:16 yeah 22:53:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/140788 22:56:16 <|3b|> what does the end of /tmp/buildlog look like? 22:56:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@128-183.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:58:23 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-143-210.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:58:25 darn, I halted the VM and lost the file, sorry about that 22:58:39 it's too late for me to try again now, later thos week yes 23:01:13 davazp [~user@70.Red-79-152-117.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:32 <|3b|> well, if it happens again, save the log too :) 23:02:53 <|3b|> not enough in just that error to tell what is happening, but is enough to tell it seems to be something odd happening 23:03:04 yeah 23:03:09 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6B43A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:03:18 <|3b|> looks like it is the test harness itself failing rather than (or in addition to) a specific test 23:03:34 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:04:20 <|3b|> possibly something debian changes, or possibly a rare test failure is breaking the test code 23:04:30 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6B43A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:12 kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@2400:2410:2060:1b00::4:2] has joined #lisp 23:06:09 jbarker [~jbarker@18.189.79.180] has joined #lisp 23:06:18 will have a look for sure later, because I need a recent enough SBCL in a debian VM for testing and building debian packages for pgloader 23:06:23 thanks for having a look already 23:06:50 __paul0 [~paul0@200.146.127.216.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:07:18 <|3b|> how hard is it to reproduce what you did to get to that point? 23:07:48 really simple 23:07:58 see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/19#issuecomment-31590201 23:08:02 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:08:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:03 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:10:53 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:11 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:11:43 <|3b|> dim: how did you set up the vm? 23:12:39 <|3b|> and are you running it in virtualbox or something else? 23:13:03 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:09 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 23:19:11 -!- [F_F] [~IronPytho@unaffiliated/f-f/x-8601851] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:20:01 pillton [~user@124-171-222-197.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:21:33 -!- MoALTz [~no@host81-153-176-64.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:08 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:28:47 matko [~matko@ip82-139-125-221.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:15 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@c-24-21-88-250.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:38:35 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6B43A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:39:01 -!- kubatyszko [~kubatyszk@2400:2410:2060:1b00::4:2] has quit [Quit: kubatyszko] 23:40:06 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5B2B25E1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:12 -!- jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:28 jsambrook [~jsambrook@c-24-16-12-70.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:23 -!- CrazyEddy [~portably@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:53:24 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-62-106.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:45 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:55:01 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:55:35 Jesus Christ, Lisp is complex. It's quite obviously suitable for lazy but smart programmers. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I fit in more than one of those categories, and it's not the good one... 23:55:45 -!- fractastical [~jdietz@108-209-110-217.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: fractastical] 23:58:46 Some issues are complex, I agree... but they tend to be in weird internal munging areas, IMHO 23:59:09 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e4f0:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]