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quit [Excess Flood] 04:05:28 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 04:09:26 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-133-70.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:12:50 -!- microt [~caustic@c-67-169-99-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:13:45 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:16:43 -!- johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:16:52 johs [~johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 04:20:48 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-116-150.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:22:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has joined #lisp 04:22:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has quit [Changing host] 04:22:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:24:39 -!- Ogion_ [~Ogion@84.Red-79-158-91.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:26:45 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:27:08 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 04:29:16 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:04 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:34:04 aptenodyte [~user@pool-72-74-247-12.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:36 anyone know what's happened to CLiki? 04:34:45 I haven't been able to access for like a week 04:36:25 harish [~harish@124.197.117.68] has joined #lisp 04:39:17 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 04:39:38 -!- aptenodyte [~user@pool-72-74-247-12.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:40:10 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.239.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:45:04 i don't know aptenodyte but i really miss it 04:45:13 anyone know? 04:46:05 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:47:26 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:50:55 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:51:39 mmaul [~mmaul@cpe-174-109-084-082.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:08 Anyone know what happened to cliki? 04:52:48 no one knows... 04:56:47 It achieved sentience and decided to hoard its wisdom for job security? 04:57:40 Someone should probably mention in the /topic that it still works on port 8080. 04:58:42 aptenodyte [~user@pool-72-74-247-12.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:54 Thanks, that is good to know. Also nice to know wayback machine has a good image. 04:59:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 05:05:37 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:06:13 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:08:08 alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:08:31 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.145.98.203] has joined #lisp 05:12:55 Ogion [~Ogion@203.Red-88-9-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:04 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:17:33 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has joined #lisp 05:20:44 that is good to know. I'm mostly just curious about why, at this point - I don't use it in my day-to-day but it's an amazing resource. 05:22:56 doomlord__ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 05:24:05 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:28:50 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:22 leo2007 [~leo@123.115.245.152] has joined #lisp 05:33:26 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:33:43 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:33:57 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:36:32 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 05:40:10 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 05:40:12 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 05:42:02 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 05:43:31 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has quit [Client Quit] 09:33:11 OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-5eeaaa3a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 09:33:21 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:33:47 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:35:13 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:35:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:37:05 ggole [~ggole@106-68-208-154.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:37:28 Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-78-230.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:30 hlavaty [~user@friedrichstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:38 ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 09:38:50 I am using hunchentoot with bordeaux-thread 09:38:52 I use global hashes. 09:39:20 Do I need to acquire a lock when writing to hashes? 09:39:33 I trying to use cl-sdl2, but I get this error on compilation -> http://paste.lisp.org/+30HP. 09:39:36 that is implementation dependent, but if in doubt, yes 09:39:37 is there a guide for schemers who want to learn common lisp? 09:39:40 How do you write to a hash? 09:39:45 Do you mean a hash-table? 09:39:55 Zhivago: setf 09:40:14 That's not going to write to a hash. They're generally integers. 09:40:44 Zhivago: (setf (gethash key *article*) 'foo) 09:41:04 Zhivago: I guess I mean hash-table 09:42:16 It's a good idea not to confuse hash with hash-table. :) 09:42:59 Zhivago: what's a hash then? 09:43:43 vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:53 -!- escalz [~escalz@AMontsouris-553-1-64-139.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:44:16 escalz [~escalz@AMontsouris-553-1-64-139.w92-151.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:44:30 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 09:44:48 A hash is the result of applying a hash-function. 09:45:17 Conside what md5 produces, for example. 09:45:34 Or sha256. 09:47:02 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:47:37 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 09:47:38 Zhivago: OK 09:48:40 Zhivago: What about my original Q, do I need to lock when making change to hash-table in a multi threaded application? 09:50:52 CL has no threads or locks, so you'll need to refer to the implementation's documentation. 09:52:16 przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:52:32 I use SBCL 09:52:34 ivan-kanis: you probably need a lock in that situation even without SMP 09:52:51 Well, SBCL has on-line documentation -- so check it out. 09:53:02 From memory, it isn't thread-safe, so you'd want a lock. 09:55:53 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.25.120] has joined #lisp 09:56:09 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 09:56:29 Thank you all, I'll use locks. 09:57:07 stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.2] has joined #lisp 09:57:24 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e260:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:58:52 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:38 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:00:55 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:55 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:33 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:03:03 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:03:51 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 10:06:39 how to merge two directory sets, (merge-pathnames *workspace* #P"libs/") returns only workspace directory (w/o libs) 10:06:54 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9CE42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:07:14 -!- zacts [~zacts@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:10:45 Poenikatu|2 [~kvirc@host-89-240-253-72.as13285.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:51 That sounds right. Do you want to append the directory components? 10:11:01 jackdaniel: the second arg to merge-pathnames is default-pathname, and is used to fill in whatever is missing from the first arg. 10:11:23 hmm, i used cl-fad with merge-pthnames-as-directory and it works like a charm now 10:11:42 merge-pathnamesas-directory* 10:12:15 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:14:26 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-5eeaaa3a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 10:15:21 still not right ;-) 10:15:34 well, it works :p but what is wrong with it? 10:15:37 aaa 10:15:38 lol 10:15:43 cl-fad:merge-pathnames-as-directory 10:15:46 yes 10:15:59 _1_zuber [~WhatsChat@151.16.116.246] has joined #lisp 10:16:03 -!- _1_zuber [~WhatsChat@151.16.116.246] has left #lisp 10:16:04 one more thing - is there a way to acquire path to currently loaded file? 10:16:29 so i can make assign to *workspace* directory , from which file is loaded? 10:17:04 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-43-188.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:17:28 I use (asdf:system-relative-pathname :your-system-name "relative/path/to/file") in some cases, and I think there's something else for the file being loaded 10:17:31 *load-pathname*, while the file is being loaded (eval-when (:load-toplevel :execute)) 10:17:47 *compile-file-pathname while it's being compiled. 10:17:52 ah, there you go 10:18:30 there are also *-truename* versions, if that's what you need. 10:19:12 thank you :) that will help me a lot 10:20:12 im working through git with friends, and they have diffrent directories for workspace (rationale) 10:20:54 jackdaniel: however it's not a good idea to use those variables in general. 10:21:02 dim: your first solution won't work if you start emacs from diffrent directory (that was my first guess) 10:21:06 ogamita: why so? 10:21:21 jackdaniel: if you generate an executable image, then there's no *load-pathname* anymore, and the application and its resources can be installed anywhere. 10:21:58 In this case, you may want to use the argv and cwd at the launch of the image to find them, or use a configuration file or a CLI argument (with a launch script). 10:22:08 ogamita: if ill create executable image i won't have to load it, right? 10:22:22 While developing, I use logical pathnames, with a load-logical-pathname-translations. 10:22:48 So on each development host, I have a different ~/LOGHOST/PROJECT logical pathname translation file. 10:22:52 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 10:23:08 but you have to define it on each host, right? 10:23:08 jackdaniel: indeed, once the executable image is created, it is launched and no load occurs. 10:23:12 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:23 diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has joined #lisp 10:23:36 Yes. 10:24:02 problem is, that im only "lisper" on team, they write C parts (and compile it to *.so files) 10:24:44 so to make using application painless for them as much as possible i can't use logical pathnames ;) 10:25:20 That said, it's often quite similar. Eg.: #.(list (list "GSHARP:**;*.*.*" (merge-pathnames #P"works/gsharp/**/*.*" (user-homedir-pathname) nil)) (list "GSHARP:**;*.*" (merge-pathnames #P"works/gsharp/**/*.*" (user-homedir-pathname) nil)) (list "GSHARP:**;*" (merge-pathnames #P"works/gsharp/**/*" (user-homedir-pathname) nil))) 10:25:20 10:25:28 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.63.225] has joined #lisp 10:26:01 AffiliateOwnz [~goldginfe@2.55.115.80] has joined #lisp 10:26:13 Ok, so the question is what you need the pathname for? 10:26:36 -!- AffiliateOwnz [~goldginfe@2.55.115.80] has quit [Client Quit] 10:26:51 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:23 -!- kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: Changing server] 10:27:26 hmm, from main im loading "foreign.lisp" file (same directory), and from "foreign.lisp" im calling few shared libraries from "libs/" directory 10:27:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:27:56 kbtr [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:28:34 And you want to let them compile the lisp program themselves? 10:29:14 I would rely on LD_LIBRARY_PATH for libraries. 10:29:16 The point here is that you would have the same problem if it was written in C, and you'd use dlopen. 10:29:17 well, for now its sbcl --load main.lisp 10:30:17 As a Q&D solution for now, indeed you can use *load-pathname*; but as I said, if you change the deployment, you will have to revise that. 10:30:18 but if ill rely on LD_LIBRARY_PATH i would have to infere on their home hosts to change env variables, or require root to install libraries on /usr/lib or /lib 10:30:31 ogamita: yes, im aware of that :) 10:31:26 on release version there would be probably core image and libraries in /usr/lib 10:31:47 Yes, they would have to add libs/ to LD_LIBRARY_PATH; this can be done in the Makefile too. lispstuff: ; export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$(LD_LIBRARY_PATH):./libs/ ; sbcl --load main.lisp 10:32:19 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:32:42 jackdaniel: yes, for release that would be good. Try this lispstuff Makefile rule, without changing your code. If it works, problem solved. 10:33:29 ogamita: that makes sense :) thank you for help. im going back to code. o/ :) 10:39:17 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:39:30 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:39:50 -!- PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:40:07 PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has joined #lisp 10:40:13 diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has joined #lisp 10:42:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:43:09 diadara__ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has joined #lisp 10:45:53 diadara [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has joined #lisp 10:46:16 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 10:47:00 hi, I don't know how to use this functionality: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Saving-a-Core-Image 10:47:20 I try to save from console, not slime, so I don't have threads 10:47:25 first I do: 10:47:57 sbcl (no options, so it loads my .sbclrc) 10:48:01 and in REPL 10:48:14 (require :my-package) 10:48:34 so it compiles everything, because it has asdf:*central-registry* 10:49:04 then I (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "blabla" :compression t) 10:49:25 and in console, I start new sbcl process, as bare as possible: 10:49:39 -!- diadara__ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:49:46 sbcl --no-userinit --no-systeminit --core blabla 10:50:07 and when I type (require :my-package), it says it does not know how to 10:50:18 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 10:50:30 I may give up and simply deploy all sources to my server.... 10:52:06 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:52:21 First of all, don't use REQUIRE. 10:52:21 well, I'm a newbie, so it's probably a stupid idea, but don't you need to require asdf before requiring your package ? 10:52:31 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 10:52:46 GuilOooo: I will try now 10:52:57 Secondly, why do you need to load it again if it's already inside core? 10:53:14 true, but it would do no harm 10:54:05 _paul0 [~paul0@177.16.145.252] has joined #lisp 10:54:20 -!- paul0 [~paul0@177.16.202.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:54:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:38 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:54:58 And you have to specify :toplevel if you want it to work correctly without reiniting. 10:55:20 scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:55:26 (require :asdf) works, (require :my-package) does not 10:55:35 I will read what :toplevel is... 10:55:55 right, it is just a function to run, innit? 10:56:08 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 10:56:17 Yes. 10:56:19 so should make no difference in my opinion.... 10:56:40 (it would later when I want to export "standalone" executable, but not now) 10:57:04 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:22 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 10:57:30 if you can require asdf, why not (asdf:load-system :foo) instead of (require :foo)? 10:57:46 IIRC asdf may not be initialized correctly after loading from core so :toplevel can actually make difference. 10:57:53 przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:58:08 hitecnology: so what would you put in toplevel? 10:58:52 GuilOooo: component :MY-PACKAGE not found 10:58:53 puchacz: is pathname to your system in *central-registry*? 10:59:06 hitecnology: yes 10:59:31 but I do not expect that my system needs to be loaded anyhow. shouldn't it be already in the exported image? 10:59:43 puchacz: try to load core without --no-userinit and --no-systeminit. 10:59:55 Yes, it should be. 11:00:13 And try to save image without compression. 11:00:25 s/try to save/try saving/ 11:01:15 hitecnology: it worked when I without --no-userinit and --no-systeminit. 11:01:28 (in-package :my-package) changed package ok 11:01:38 so it was already there without (require :my-package) 11:01:40 good stuff 11:01:45 not sure I understand though 11:02:05 I think it has something to do with the way sbcl handles core images. 11:02:14 Not sure I understand this either. 11:02:20 is the whole functionality somehow shaky? 11:02:42 maybe I should not be using it 11:02:53 No, it works just fine. 11:03:05 do you use it, e.g. for web server deployment? 11:03:11 Yes. 11:03:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:03:23 so your baseline core + patches as sources? 11:03:36 if you need to patch quickly? 11:04:03 Mostly, yes, but sometimes I just use bare sources. 11:04:30 ok, and why did you say not to use compression? did you have problems with it? 11:05:12 Not really, I just see no need in it. 11:05:25 network transfer to provider? 11:06:04 anyway, thank you very much 11:06:30 Sure it save some bandwidth but I just don't have it enabled in sbcl on my working machine so I don't use it much. 11:06:47 I really wanted to avoid to copy over whole quicklisp directory AND my sources. Too much to keep in sync, too messy 11:07:03 core image feels cleaner :) 11:08:12 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.63.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:08:25 And they also load faster. 11:08:35 true 11:11:17 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 11:12:01 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:12:17 Well, pkhuong or stassats may know why this init thing happens. You can try asking one of them. 11:14:17 simply loading the core should work 11:15:15 Yes, but why it doesn't work without reinitialization? 11:15:52 puchacz: be sure to have some repeatable way to construct your core from scratch. That is helpful when you update some library 11:16:32 hitecnologys: most likely because the initialization has not much to do with the core 11:17:57 prxq: I thought that core is supposed to contain all needed to data to work without initialization. 11:18:05 diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has joined #lisp 11:20:40 -!- diadara [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:21:00 -!- gko_ [~gko@218-161-19-128.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:37 even if you use a saved core, sbcl will undergo the standard initialization procedure by default 11:22:48 use buildapp if you want more control over the startup process. 11:23:54 prxq: no problem, I start minimal sbcl without slime even to export core 11:24:38 H4ns: can buildapp (Xach's I presume) export core or only standalone executable? 11:24:55 hmm, is there a way to get rid of "WARNING: Undefined alien: "function_name"" when i use (defcfun ...) ? 11:25:04 (functions work just fine) 11:25:07 H4ns: so, core images still require initialization? 11:25:24 hitecnology: do you start sbcl on server in screen? and do you add these no-debugger, no-repl switches? 11:25:27 puchacz: look at the documentation. 11:25:34 gko_ [~gko@218-161-19-128.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:35 hitecnologys: yes. 11:26:25 puchacz: nah, I'm too lazy. Just tmux and sbcl --core whatever. One day I'll defenitly write an init script but not today, maybe tomorrow. 11:26:47 H4ns: but my userinit file (.sbclrc) only sets up *central-registry*. why isn't its value saved in the core then? 11:26:48 H4ns: but why? 11:27:44 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:27:46 puchacz: i cannot tell, i don't have psychic debugging skills. 11:28:02 hitecnologys: because sbcl's runtime needs initialization, no matter what core file is used. 11:28:27 H4ns: and asdf depends on this runtime, right? 11:28:59 hitecnologys: asdf is just a lisp library and it requires an initialized lisp system, right. 11:29:38 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 11:29:56 H4ns: I see. Thanks for explanation. 11:30:17 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:45 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.245.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:33:51 I still don't understand - what is this initialisation that is required. in my case it is just setting *central-registry* value.... 11:34:32 puchacz: i'm not quite sure i understand: if you've loaded all your stuff and dumped a core, why do you need asdf at all? 11:35:50 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:51 me neither (understand) - I will try to move the core to another computer that has no access to my sources at all and see 11:35:58 diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has joined #lisp 11:37:10 puchacz: obviously, if you dump a core with a certain *central-registry* value, then that value should be set when you restart the core. it may be that some other part of the asdf initialization code overwrites the setting, so you'll have to make sure that no other asdf initialization is run. 11:37:29 puchacz: --no-userinit and --no-sysinit (sp?) are the flags to do that 11:37:50 ok, I will need to look closer 11:38:14 puchacz: but if you don't need asdf at run time, then i'd just not bother with that too much. i also recommend buildapp, as that gives you better control over the startup process of your deployable application. 11:39:00 I tried yesterday and I started, but something was missing - I don't know what because I had debug=0 and safety=0 11:39:08 so I will try again with more verbose settings 11:39:26 that has nothing to do with debug 0 and safety 0, and those settings look like a bad idea. 11:39:27 s/I started/it started from standalone I mean/ 11:39:59 H4ns: I wanted speed=3, don't I need to tell compiler that I don't care about others? 11:40:07 (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'speed 3) 11:40:36 do you have actual performance problems that you're trying address with those settings? 11:40:43 no 11:41:00 then don't mess with them, as you seemingly don't know what their effects really are 11:41:13 I develop with safety=3 debug=3, and wanted to deploy with speed=3 11:41:55 i always deploy with the settings that i use during development unless i have a very particular reason not to. 11:42:23 true, the actual meaning of the settings is not thoroughly described 11:44:16 they're not described as thoroughly because they're not as useful as you may believe :) 11:44:45 I see difference between debug=3 and debug=0 in quality of debugging info 11:45:35 right. there is a good reason to set debug 3, but even removing that declaration for production builds should be done only if there is a demonstratable positive effect. 11:45:56 one could argue that debug 3 should be the default, but i'm sure that the sbcl folks have a good reason not to do that 11:46:11 ok, I take your word for it. will go with debug=3 and safety=3, all others at 0 11:46:38 why safety 3? 11:46:46 dunno 11:47:34 judging book by the cover I guess 11:48:25 don't. 11:48:45 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:53 do you know what it does? 11:48:54 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 11:49:07 Why are you messing with the optimizations anyway? 11:49:51 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:50:01 different profiles for deployment and development 11:50:19 Why though. 11:50:33 do you know what they exactly do? 11:50:46 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 11:51:08 This must be described in sbcl manual. 11:51:51 puchacz: I know that there's no need to mess with them unless there's a specific situation that demands it. 11:52:28 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:52:42 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-59-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 11:55:49 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9CE42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59:38 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:04:55 Wackadoodle [Elite6963@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-quynzbsmdigonigy] has joined #lisp 12:06:11 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:07:24 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 12:07:42 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 12:09:28 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:09:31 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 12:11:04 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 12:16:02 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 12:16:39 -!- ivan-kanis [~user@lns-c10k-ft-02-t2-89-83-137-164.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 12:19:30 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 12:21:12 przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:10 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@188.58.7.79] has joined #lisp 12:28:26 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:32:14 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:e1e6:1038:4263:4381] has joined #lisp 12:34:30 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@c-107-3-131-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:35:30 OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-5eeaaa21-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 12:37:03 -!- mmaul [~mmaul@cpe-174-109-084-082.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:38:20 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:38:43 Total lisp newbie here - can anyone recommend a clisp implementation that I can run on a Raspberry pi with Emacs and slime? I tried gnu clisp and it crashed, I was told to find another implementation. 12:40:39 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41:13 OldContrarian: clisp IS an implementation of Common Lisp, aka CL. 12:41:16 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-43-188.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:41:32 ccl runs well on Raspberry Pi. 12:42:04 Oh, sorry, I meant I'm looking for a COMMON lisp implementation, not clisp :-) 12:42:18 Have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/articles/raspberrypi/ccl-sur-qemu.html 12:42:20 ccl you say? Hmm... 12:42:33 I will, thanks. 12:43:11 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 12:43:38 Actually, just the last part: svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/trunk/linuxarm/ccl ; ccl/armcl 12:44:18 There's also ECL. 12:44:29 I heard that it works fine too. 12:45:12 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:45:38 ogamita: I'll have to ask my friend (who owns the Raspberry pi) to install svn. Thanks! 12:49:55 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 12:51:10 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:10 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-59-12.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:52 ogimata: Unrelated shell tip (that you may already know) - if you replace the ";" in the shell command you gave me with "&&", it only performs the second command if the first one completes successfully. 12:55:17 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:02:04 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:21 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:02:28 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 13:04:22 -!- Poenikatu|2 [~kvirc@host-89-240-253-72.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 13:08:04 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.72] has joined #lisp 13:08:51 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9CE42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:25 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 13:15:20 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:17:52 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:11 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:23:37 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:19 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:43 shamaz [~user@ip-95-220-16-223.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:25:37 vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:48 microt [~caustic@c-67-169-99-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:57 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:12 vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:31 hualet_deepin [~user@183.94.5.242] has joined #lisp 13:31:33 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:33:57 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:41:39 -!- microt [~caustic@c-67-169-99-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:42:14 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-59-229.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:42:44 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:44:13 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@117.213.48.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:44:47 teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has joined #lisp 13:46:19 OldContrarian: this wasn't a shell command, but a Makefile rule. 13:46:44 OldContrarian: oh, sorry, I'm confused. Yes, it may be a good idea to use && here. 13:47:13 It was a context switch error. 13:47:34 -!- shamaz [~user@ip-95-220-16-223.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 13:54:07 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: mental process finished because connection ended] 13:55:54 przl [~przlrkt@p549FDC34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:56:50 -!- Guthur [~user@ppp118-210-78-230.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:56:53 ogamita: Right, I keep forgetting to use && too. 13:57:00 -!- hualet_deepin [~user@183.94.5.242] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57:52 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.107.105.40] has joined #lisp 13:58:26 Originally, it was a multiple line human script, not a shell script, ;-) 13:59:07 :-) 14:02:13 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:03:26 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 14:05:28 dalecooper [~chris@89.1.38.70] has joined #lisp 14:08:01 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 14:09:16 It's been about 17 years since I've really used IRC - is it common to have this many people in a channel, and yet so little actual talk? 14:09:32 depends on the channel 14:09:35 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:09:39 This place is an IdleFest (tm) 14:09:40 OldContrarian: it is common in this channel. 14:10:13 I see. More people willing to answer questions than there are questions, I guess :-) 14:10:42 OldContrarian: also "lisp is cool but i don't have much time for it" a lot, i'd say :) 14:11:30 H4ns: That's because lisp programmers are all old enough to have families, I guess. All the kids use C# or somesuch. 14:11:40 Most of them work for the NSA. 14:12:19 You could also try saying something interesting. :) 14:12:32 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 14:12:51 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:12:54 Zhivago: Well, actually... that's what I'm trying to do. :-) 14:13:10 OldContrarian: wrong! Not all the kinds. 14:13:11 work for the nsa? 14:15:21 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:16:14 Question: if lisp is as awesome as most of us seem to think, why is it so rarely used these days? Bad reputation? Percieved limitations, because of its age? 14:17:24 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-125-126.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:28 I think it's mostly reputation. Many people think of Lisp as of "geeky AI-specific language that can't be used for solving real tasks". 14:17:42 I wish I had taken it up ages ago, but at the time I thought it was some obscure old language like cobol, that there was no reason to use anymore. 14:17:46 <|3b|> because "awesome" isn't how most people choose 14:17:48 parenthesophobia 14:18:04 Implementations tend not to play with with others, and other languages have mostly caught up with most features. 14:18:09 |3b|: I'd say that's how most hobbyists choose. 14:18:30 <|3b|> are you sure they aren't choosing based on who/how many think it is awesome? 14:18:32 Zhivago: Even macros? 14:18:33 scoofy: the most interesting things is that in C or other languages one sometimes uses even more parentheses! 14:18:47 And it looks like easy extensibility has some negative costs -- the easier it is to extend, the deeper the code needs to be read, because the more contextual it is. 14:19:02 Well, it might be that macros are actually a bad idea in general. 14:19:04 Zhivago: Good point. 14:19:13 Oh? 14:19:20 By reducing readability? 14:19:23 Consider -- what does (a b c) mean? 14:19:31 <|3b|> alternately, maybe "awesome" isn't an objective description, so there is only "we think it is awesome", and other people don't 14:20:20 Zhivago: Depends on which macros are defined, which I guess is your point... ? 14:20:53 *|3b|* suspects a lot of lisp users don't think lisp is 'good' in an absolute sense, just 'better' relative to other things 14:21:34 It's not just macros, but the whole surrounding context. 14:21:36 Zhivago: well, you can use almost everything to reduce readability. Macros are powerful, but with great power comes great responsibility. 14:21:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:21:59 So lisp demands deep literacy of a program, rather than shallow literacy of a language. 14:22:03 <|3b|> hitecnologys: not everyone likes responsibility 14:22:13 hitecnologys: I guess the problem is that not all people with great power is responsible. 14:22:15 |3b|: that is why many people don't like Lisp. 14:22:26 <|3b|> and even more people are willing to give up power since they don't trust other people with it 14:22:34 OldContrarian: and that is the reason why we still have bad code out there. 14:22:34 And deep literacy is expensive to acquire and maintain. 14:23:29 Zhivago: Would you say that lisp might be too flexible for its own good in this regard? 14:23:58 Zhivago: In the sense that it gives people power that they tend to misuse. 14:24:08 I think that's a negligible cost. 14:24:14 <|3b|> OldContrarian: it would probably be even less popular if it were less flexible 14:24:19 The main cost, I suspect, is to the casual reader. 14:24:35 -!- joe9 [~user@ip24-255-250-24.ks.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:24:44 And when you think about wide-scale adoption and commercial use, the casual reader dominates the demographic. 14:24:54 Mmm. The casual reader and the determined maintainer and very different people. 14:25:03 Er, s/and/are/ 14:26:21 determined maintainers tend to start off as casual readers 14:26:32 Zhivago: the same statement can be applied to any language with OOP/functions/preprocessor/etc and to any more or less complicated technology. Everything has its cost. 14:26:46 i think the raw number of users of a programming language is a bad measure of anything quality related. in the end, what matters is the group that chooses a language. 14:27:09 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 14:27:33 lisp is not particularily great for serving groups, as it has the master programmer model build deeply into it self. it focuses on supporting the individual, not the group. 14:27:59 Not really -- consider foo.bar(c) in java. 14:28:06 Eventually, in most cases, all that matters is working code. 14:28:07 H4ns: Interesting. 14:28:24 You know what that means just by looking at it -- there's no room for magic. 14:28:38 -!- mcsontos_ [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yplitwyfkfslwxaa] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:28:54 Zhivago: well, i've seen enough contemporary java code to know that reading it is not at all sufficient to understanding it. 14:28:56 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-pekzeillprfcrcis] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 Sure, but it's a large chunk of the initial barrier to entry. 14:29:18 OldContrarian: when asking this question, you are making a lot of assumptions. For example, that a goal of corporations is to optimize awesomeness, or technical prowess, or maintainability, or technological progress. 14:29:41 OldContrarian: corporations only optimize the amount of debt-money in their books. 14:29:42 I suspect that lisp programmers tend to be good programmers because good programmers tend to be good at deep literacy of code. 14:29:55 But most programmers aren't. 14:30:11 ogamita: Then what about hobby programmers? Lisp isn't big with them either. 14:30:30 OldContrarian: you're assuming that random programmers have as goal to optimize their CS knowledge, or their ability to develop new algorithms, or to write sophisticated software, including but not likmited to real AI. 14:30:42 That doesn't make them bad programmers. You can't tell if programmer is good or bad just by looking at his code, you have to look inside his head first. 14:30:46 Again, that's definitely NOT what random programmers optimize. 14:31:03 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBBD64.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:31:25 Yes, lisp may be a better match to the optimization goals of hobby programmers. 14:31:36 ogamita: Well, when I say "awesome", I mean appealing to the programmer. 14:31:45 And that's what we're observing: a lot of hobby programming done on hobby time. 14:32:12 what I've seen, nowadays building software is about gluing ready made pieces (the newer framework the better) together as fast as possible 14:32:29 OldContrarian: lisp is appealing to a lot of hobby programmers. that is the reason why it is not dead. 14:32:38 ogamita: And yet it seems to me that other relatively obscure programming languages like Python are being used 10 times (or more) as much as Lisp by hobbyists, but I could of course be wrong. 14:32:53 I can certify that Java appeals to java programmers, just like Cobol appeals to cobol programmers: they are delighted of the 9-5 job opportunities those languages bring to them. 14:32:57 What's obscure about python? :) 14:33:01 wouldn't call Python obscure by any means 14:33:19 newcup: true. And that makes me sad. 14:33:40 OldContrarian: again, depends on the optimization goal. A lot of hobbyist programmers are actually just professionnal programmer learning skills to further their carreer. 14:33:41 hitec: why? 14:33:47 Zhivago: Well, it my market it's obscure when compared to C, C++, C#, Perl, Java, etc. 14:34:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 14:34:22 Lisp is still big in psychological depts 14:34:24 Have you suffered a recent severe head injury? 14:34:41 Python and Ruby are less obscure than Perl (in terms of popularity) nowadays. Nobody uses perl anymore but for legacy scripts. 14:34:46 When a language ships by default with an OS, it is no longer obscure. 14:34:49 in music too. 14:34:58 http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html 14:35:00 The psychologists who do computer modeling had to learn lisp, and they'll be damned if they learn another computer language 14:35:00 ogamita: exactly 14:35:04 ogimata: It's the other way around here. 14:35:16 Python is like number 8. 14:35:24 scoofy: that is what I see too. The first guy who makes working product wins, it doesn't matter if his code is "bad" or "good". He is the first one -- he is the winner. 14:35:35 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:35:52 rules of the market... 'who is faster, wins' 14:36:03 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.72] has joined #lisp 14:36:05 Zhivago: I'd say being number 8 is relatively obscure. 14:36:15 maybe the product is crappier, but many ppl don't care 14:36:26 OldContrarian: and this is an important factor too, the Internet notwithstanding, there are still some "geographical" niches. 14:36:28 But it all depends on how you define "obscure", of course. 14:36:31 Um, yeah, so where was perl? Number 12 ... :) 14:37:12 Anyhow, I suspect that you're probably kind of out of touch -- you might want to do some research. 14:37:37 scoofy: and that is not good at all. 14:38:19 Zhivago: I'd say "in a different market" rather than out of touch. 14:38:48 hitec: from what viewpoint? 14:38:51 You describe how things are where you are, I describe how things are where I am. 14:39:10 I'm in Sweden, working for the Swedish defense. 14:39:17 Consumers get to spend their money on whatever crap they like: that's the system. 14:39:18 hitec: from one viewpoint it's good because you can make better software than the rest :) 14:39:32 so you can offer a competitive advantage 14:40:15 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:22 Over here, it's all about .NET now unfortunately (not at my job though) 14:40:43 scoofy: from mine viewpoint. I don't think competing is what people are supposed to do. We should cooperate reather than try to kill each other in insane race. 14:40:43 .net is actually technically kind of cool. 14:40:49 hitecnologys: more or less true. A lot of lisp programs were the first to be written and deployed in lisp, and then they got rewritten in lesser languages. So it's be the first to make a working product that the unwashed mass can understand and maintain. 14:40:58 Just a pity about the dying OS that it's attached to. 14:41:08 At my job, it's Progress 4GL, .NET, Perl, shell scripts, C, and some Python in that order. 14:41:24 At my job, it's C++, Java, Python, Go, and Common Lisp 14:41:26 hitec: well, the history of biology and evolution in a nutshell: 'kill each other in insane race'. humanking is just an extension of that 14:41:27 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:36 OldContrarian: so at your job there's no innovation, just good old money making. 14:41:38 s/humandking/humankind 14:42:05 OldContrarian: lisp would be good if the goal was to explore the unknown, and to invent new problems (with their innovative solutions). 14:42:30 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-151-154.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:42:30 ogamita: Pretty much. I'm the one who brought on Python here, we started using Perl like 6 years ago, and I brought in Python some years after that. 14:43:03 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:44:00 scoofy: and that is sad too. 14:44:40 that's what we got 14:45:22 I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but over here it seems like all new software development is done with .NET for some crazy reason. It's like nobody remembers that Microsoft is not to be trusted. 14:46:22 scoofy: we could have been building a colonies on other planets if we weren't such an assholes. 14:46:30 ogamita` [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 14:46:56 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.72] has joined #lisp 14:47:27 hitecnologys: Stop that, or you're going to get me started on the influence of religion in scientific development, and nobody wants to listen to that. :-) 14:47:34 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@188.58.7.79] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:38 Especially on this channel. 14:48:19 OldContrarian: no problem. 14:48:31 -!- vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 14:49:02 the topic is good but maybe out of bounds of a lisp channel 14:49:03 :-) 14:49:24 Yeah, maybe. 14:49:37 to the #lispcafe 14:49:42 Indeed. The god debate is the first and most important of all debates. 14:49:46 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 14:50:02 But there are other channels for that sort of thing, I'm sure. 14:50:13 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:50:42 but nevertheless, programming is both competitive and cooperative, at various times 14:51:13 Well, there's not point in discussing these things. There's practically nothing we can do about it. 14:51:23 exactly 14:51:25 Btw, what's happened to cliki.net recently? It's been down a few days. 14:51:28 as i said earlier, 'that's what we got' 14:51:51 trying to do something about it is like trying to make the wind stop blowing 14:52:16 That's easy. Turn off the sun. 14:53:18 Zhivago: surprisingly, that would ultimately solve *all* the problems we've got. 14:53:35 no more global warming ;) 14:54:03 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:54:43 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:55:14 Actually, I meant "no people -- no problem" but that sounds fine too... 14:55:37 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@cpe-076-182-089-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:55:49 Reclassify them as mobile rocks. 14:55:54 nah, that wouldn't eliminate "people"... they would invent their own tiny little suns and hydrogen reactors 14:55:58 and cold fusion and whatnot 14:55:58 -!- Sourceless is now known as Guest9473 14:56:04 The problem with people these days is that they lack imagination. 14:56:17 they're like cockroaches - you cannot eliminate them by just switching off the lights in the kitchen :) 14:56:25 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:56:38 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:56:53 That would probably kill us quite effectively, though. 14:57:32 scoofy: sounds fun for me. Too bad red giant will most definitely kill all of them before this could happen. 14:57:48 Being as reliant on that pesky ecosystem as we are. 14:58:08 some would survive. and those would reinvent 14:58:21 living in their underground bunkers 14:58:37 living an utopist underground future 14:58:55 -!- ogamita` is now known as ogamita 14:59:56 so eventually humans would turn into moles 14:59:59 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:501b:e260:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:10 Survive being heated to several million degrees? 15:00:53 of course. they would build little space ships that they would pack full with their sh*t and fly far-far away before that happens 15:01:25 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:38 Maybe. Anyway, that is far beyond off-topic. 15:02:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:02:17 well, they did send man on the moon... with like, 50s technology 15:02:32 With fusion power, you wouldn't need a sun to live on the earth. 15:02:33 btw did they use lisp? 15:02:46 And that was the last time we send men on the Moon... 15:02:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 Just set up domes on the ice. :) 15:03:00 maybe we figured there isn't much interesting stuff there.... 15:03:02 It would have been assembly at that time, I think. 15:03:08 no food, no gold, no diamonds... 15:03:15 scoofy: no oil. 15:03:19 definitely 15:03:23 and costs a helluva lot to send stuff there and back 15:03:39 so not much point in actually going there too much, imo 15:03:45 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:12 maybe it was just an ego thing 15:04:18 Be right back in 15 min. 15:04:20 you know... it was prestige 15:04:55 once you get the medal for 'first man on the moon', it's no point in going there further 15:06:18 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:06:24 But everybody *wants* there to be a good reason. 15:06:36 Because it's so damn cool to fill a tube with explosion and fly up there. 15:07:02 Please stay on topic. 15:10:01 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 15:11:33 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:11:34 Back. 15:12:10 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-13-216.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 15:13:18 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:14:13 -!- speckle [~speckle@c-76-111-8-161.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:14:19 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:15:09 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:19:59 CrazyEddy [~revisitat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:26:29 It's on topic, as long as it's programmed in lisp! 15:26:37 Let's write moon base software, in lisp! 15:27:33 Sounds cool. We can also write an emulator of flight to the Moon. 15:27:41 s/emulator/simulator/ 15:28:10 You start by raising enough cash to get the Russians to fly you there. 15:29:16 s/Russians/Chineses/ 15:29:26 Bitcoins won't do. 15:29:59 Now, how many of you imagined a sleight of hand here? 15:30:02 dcxi [~dcxi@122.Red-88-18-195.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:47 Heh. 15:37:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-13-216.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:37:38 leoc [~leoc.git@f048152206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:39 Well, I did manage to get you guys talking for a bit. Now it's somebody else's turn to say something combustible. 15:43:08 chenjf [~communi@58.254.168.78] has joined #lisp 15:43:51 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:44:59 -!- chenjf [~communi@58.254.168.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:45:41 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:21 hi 15:48:30 davazp [~user@12.Red-83-55-79.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.25.120] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 15:49:32 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.25.120] has joined #lisp 15:49:52 is there a basic CL irc client/bot so i can build more on it? 15:50:38 theos: take a look at minion, it's quite simple. 15:51:08 theos: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots 15:51:48 hitecnologys thanks. i just need something that follows irc protocol. like replying to server pings etc. i will have a look :) 15:52:30 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:52:33 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-5eeaaa21-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 15:52:56 quick MOP sanity check: there is no way to change the metaclass of a class in a running instance after class definition time, right? 15:53:43 enn: well, technically you can do that but you have to destroy the previous one first. 15:54:31 enn: oh, wait, something is wrong with my parser. I missed "instance". No, there's no way. 15:54:47 I meant "Lisp instance," not object or class instance 15:55:03 Ah. 15:55:35 Then you can only redefine class. 15:56:26 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:56:47 <|3b|> could you change-class a class object? or would that do something different 15:57:05 how would I destroy the old class? that might do what I need ... basically I have a bunch of compile-time errors that happen with the new metaclass, and it would be easier for me to debug them in an instance with everything else running in it than during the build process. But when I just try to redefine the class I get "Cannot CHANGE-CLASS objects into CLASS metaobjects" 15:58:14 MAKUNBOUND may work, I suppose. 15:58:37 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 15:59:37 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:01:08 theos: there's a cl-irc library that works well for my bot 16:01:31 dlowe i am looking at it. thanks 16:04:14 leoc` [~leoc.git@f055198251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:05:16 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-lyekoheyeevlmenl] has joined #lisp 16:06:55 thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@f048152206.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:08:34 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:08:40 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.107.105.40] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:10:52 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:16:39 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-dnzjdhusrwuitygd] has joined #lisp 16:19:49 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:20:46 cliki looks down 16:21:10 *dlowe* contemplates offering to take over cliki 16:21:31 eudoxia [~eudoxia@186.54.13.216] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 *easye``* offers to do it, if dlowe doesn't want to for some reason. 16:23:11 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 16:23:42 -!- easye`` [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:23:44 *theos* suggests we should put it on a free host if dlowe and easye`` dont want to for some reason 16:24:03 easye [~user@2a01:4f8:200:4310::30] has joined #lisp 16:24:27 The One Free Host? 16:24:58 any one 16:25:19 that seems unlikely to improve reliability 16:26:03 Is the cliki host down or the software? 16:26:19 the software 16:26:25 Ah. Yeah. 16:26:41 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:26:47 *|3b|* thought it was the proxy or something like that 16:27:08 <|3b|> since the site itself is still running on port 8080 16:27:22 Well, one could just script a watcher to restart the process if the software can't be fixed. 16:27:34 Is it a "naked" Hunchentoot underneath that is falling down? 16:27:50 <|3b|> easye: other way around as far as i know 16:28:16 <|3b|> the hunchentoot wiki is running fine 16:28:16 The software is hanging the 'toot? 16:28:45 <|3b|> it just isn't getting proxied to port 80 (so probably losing some caching and such) 16:29:28 So, what is the component connecting port 80 to 8080? Apache? 16:29:34 <|3b|> no idea 16:29:35 -!- scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:57 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:30:10 *|3b|* is just an external observer, don't actually know what happens internally, only what i hear on irc 16:30:11 Nginx probably. 16:30:33 Apache is way too heavy for such a small task. 16:30:55 <|3b|> depends on whether it was being used for other reasons or not 16:30:57 So, this is the common-lisp.net host? Yeah, well if whoever runs cliki.net wants a new host, get in contact with me or Erik Huelsmann. We have a new host ready. 16:31:21 <|3b|> i don't think having a host is the problem 16:31:29 why not just run a normal mediawiki 16:31:31 like normal people do 16:31:37 tech.coop has donated a free host for eternity 16:31:49 why not just use java like normal people do? :p 16:32:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:32:26 <|3b|> last mediawiki i was involved in got spammed to unusuability :/ 16:32:37 <|3b|> *unusability 16:32:43 <|3b|> and the wiki software isn't the problem anyway 16:34:04 but it's a good question. why use yet another custom wiki ? 16:34:12 *|3b|* wonders if cliki really only had 3 edits in 2013 16:34:42 year old backup? 16:35:09 *|3b|* suspects translating all the markup would be a hassle if nothing else 16:36:08 <|3b|> ah, was looking at wrong page, lots of edits 16:36:23 dlowe: because mediawiki markup is better/more common, and cliki CSS looks like it hasn't been touched since 2005? 16:36:33 aesthetics matters, just ask the ruby people :p 16:36:44 <|3b|> cliki css was updated last year 16:36:44 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:12 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 16:37:30 <|3b|> and looks reasonable to me 16:37:46 eudoxia: the ruby people came up with rails, so that doesn't seem much like an endorsement 16:38:15 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-59-229.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:38:23 ck [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:00 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:08 -!- schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-004-178.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:40:17 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@122.Red-88-18-195.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 16:40:31 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9CE42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 17:36:53 hi 17:37:35 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 17:37:45 I noticed that I can specify content type json in the request for some web services frameworks, so the web service will parse the body of the request as a json file 17:38:04 can RESTAS do that and still be able to get normal form parameters? 17:42:07 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:42:16 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 17:43:37 or, in other words, can I get the content-type of the request in RESTAS/hunchentoot? 17:50:16 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 17:55:20 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:55:37 In hunchetoot sure. I don't know RESTAS. 17:56:05 pjb: restas in built on top of hunchentoot, so whatever is possible in the first should be possible in the second. How would I do that? 17:57:51 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 17:57:58 (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) (apropos "CONTENT-TYPE" "HUNCHENTOOT") 17:58:53 Move over hunchentoot:content-type and type M-. 17:59:45 Doesn't seem to be it. We want it from the request, not the reply. 18:00:16 in request.lisp, parse-rfc2388-form-data creates an alist of post parameters, so 18:00:34 (apropos "PARAMETER" "HUNCHENTOOT") 18:01:16 move over hunchentoot:post-parameters, type M-. 18:01:18 looks good. 18:02:22 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:57 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-lyekoheyeevlmenl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:03:13 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 18:03:50 -!- seangrov` [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:04:23 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-186-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:04:55 milosn [~milosn@genkt-051-108.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 pjb: I'll check it 18:06:16 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-224-186-103.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 18:06:42 pjb: I would not have thought that the content-type comes in the parameters 18:06:58 nha [~prefect@koln-4db42e1f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:37 pjb: hm, I guess it should actually be headers-in*. It returns an alist of the incoming headers associated with the REQUEST 18:07:42 -!- ustunozg_ [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:09:58 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:10 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 18:11:21 ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.212.102] has joined #lisp 18:11:41 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@98.143.212.102] has quit [Changing host] 18:11:41 ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has joined #lisp 18:16:06 Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:18:53 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:19:19 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 18:19:55 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-bjdyuntwioosqfng] has joined #lisp 18:20:03 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 -!- diadara_ [~diadara@117.206.48.189] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:20:33 nug700 [~nug700@71-223-100-202.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:38 -!- Denommus` [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:23:51 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:24:42 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:30 -!- milosn [~milosn@genkt-051-108.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:27:46 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB32E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:51 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:29:02 fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:22 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 18:34:13 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:35:19 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:35 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 18:45:41 vaporatorius [~vaporator@66.Red-83-44-135.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:45 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:51:59 -!- lllshamanlll [~lllshaman@146.66.163.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:55:32 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.201.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:15 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.201.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:57:10 -!- rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-59.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:58:06 dcxi [~dcxi@14.Red-79-148-14.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:18 thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:27 billitch [~billitch@men75-12-88-183-197-206.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:03 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 19:01:04 rdd [~rdd@c83-250-157-59.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:02:07 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:04:09 mindCrime [~prhodes@rrcs-98-101-159-194.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:15 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:05:57 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 19:06:26 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 19:06:50 -!- snama1 [~snama@cap31-3-82-238-143-172.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:10:03 sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.98] has joined #lisp 19:10:14 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@rrcs-98-101-159-194.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:10:38 mindCrime [~prhodes@rrcs-98-101-159-194.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 -!- davazp [~user@12.Red-83-55-79.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11:50 urandom__ [~user@ip-37-201-128-139.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:12:56 Poenikatu [~user@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 19:13:06 -!- ldionmarcil [~maden@unaffiliated/maden] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:17 In Paul Graham's book, there is a footnote which reads "Lisp couldn't just use sharp-quote to represent functions, because sharp-quote by itself offers no way to represent a closure." Could someone explain that? ;-) 19:15:49 Poenikatu, what sentence was the footnote to? 19:16:48 That's a pretty weird thing to say. 19:17:24 "When objects of each of these types are displayed by print1 (or format with ~S), they are displayed by the corresponding read-macros." 19:17:48 Sorry, "prin1" 19:18:58 Surely, a closure is just a function defined in a peculiar way, isn't it? 19:19:13 No 19:19:18 I think he is referring to printing functions 19:19:20 so it explains why it wouldn't make much sense for (prin1 #'foo) to print #'foo and instead it prints something like # 19:19:22 A closure closes over some values in its environment 19:19:37 and those can't be represented in a printable form 19:19:37 Ie, you can't just print #'(lambda (x) (+ x y)), because what do you do for y? 19:20:15 dlowe: What do you mean by "closes over some values"? 19:20:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:20:50 Poenikatu: it keeps the variables as part of its value 19:21:11 How do I add additional packages to my common lisp quicklisp load path? On my desktop I can (ql:quickload :something) and it pulls it out of ~/src/lisp/something just fine, but on my laptop it is failing despite my ~/.config/common-lisp/* files matching on both systems 19:21:11 Surely, "keeps" is not the same as "closes over"? 19:21:25 I didn't invent the terminology 19:21:26 suppose you have the result of (let ((x 42)) #'(lambda () (incf x))).. having it printed readably could be a bit of a deal.. 19:21:41 The terminology is derived from 'free variables', I believe. 19:22:07 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:22:29 I have to admit that grappling with some of the Lisp terminology is giving me a hard time. 19:22:38 ahungry, http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.5626v1 section 1 19:22:54 (defun make-incrementor (increment) (lambda (x) (+ x increment)) returns a closure with increment set to the value passed into the creating function 19:22:55 It's standard terminology for pretty much any language with first-class functions. 19:23:05 Poenikatu: it's the same for everyone at the beginning 19:23:24 yes, but not every language is like that 19:23:31 Poenikatu: think of it as a branch in culture stretching back to the beginning of computer languages 19:23:39 prxq: Thanks a lot. That makes me feel a lot better. 19:24:12 Lisp developed its own terms for the same things as fortran 19:24:24 Thanks Quadrescence 19:24:26 So we talk about consing instead of allocing 19:24:30 Poenikatu: it helps to construct examples. (defun adder (x) #'(lambda (y) (+ y x)) ;; (adder 5) returns a function that closes over the value of x (in this case 5) 19:24:31 During the last 18 years, I spent thousands of hours writing programs and library interfaces in Algol 68, which has `1st class functions' 19:24:56 oh does it? 19:25:14 *prxq* didn't know 19:25:19 Surely, the lambda closes over `y'? 19:25:58 Poenikatu: yes, it closes over y 19:26:00 Doesn't algol 68 die if you return what would be a closure? 19:26:08 over y? 19:26:16 no, over x 19:26:17 Sorry. Of course it's closing over `x'. 19:26:18 gah 19:26:26 *prxq* is relieved 19:26:31 My adder function was easier to read :p 19:27:13 *prxq* disagrees 19:27:16 ggole: No, not at all. It's possible to return `function's from functions, but if you use a variable from outside the yielded function, I think the compiler complains. 19:27:19 -!- Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:27:50 So only closed functions... hmph. 19:28:05 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:15 Poenikatu: you can do some pretty awesome things with closures 19:28:16 I guess the implementation tricks weren't known at that time. 19:28:17 well, still. 19:28:34 it doesn't close over x 19:28:35 Unfortunately, the Algol 68 compiler I ported to Linux won't compile in a 64-bit environment: I get problems with the garbage collector. 19:28:37 Poenikatu: that simply aren't possible with just function values 19:29:16 adeht: it doesn't? 19:29:17 Poenikatu: a binding for X is created whenever you call it.. 19:29:18 adeht: in the lambda expression, X is the free variable 19:29:32 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:29:38 dlowe: Ok, but I don't think I have enough knowledge and experience of Lisp to be able to understand that. 19:29:46 dlowe: just so we're on the same page, are you talking about (lambda (x) (+ x y)) ? 19:30:17 prxq's example says: #'(lambda (y) (+ y x) 19:30:19 ) 19:30:44 ah.. yes, for this one X is a free variable 19:30:45 adeht: prxq's example was "(defun adder (x) #'(lambda (y) (+ y x)) 19:30:47 " 19:31:02 Poenikatu: yes.. this one closes over X 19:31:42 The problem, for me, is to understand the point of having a `closure'. 19:32:11 I think the examples given are too trivial to make me understand why have them. 19:32:31 (defun increment-list (list amt) (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ amt x) list)) 19:32:49 (lambda (x) (+ amt x)) is a function that closes over amt 19:33:03 we pass that function into another function mapcar 19:33:15 mapcar calls that function for every element of list 19:33:29 dlowe: I have no difficulty with `mapcar' 19:33:29 When it's called, it still has access to the amt variable for addition 19:33:39 ^ point of this example 19:34:04 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 19:34:07 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:34:54 Poenikatu: are you reading ANSI Common Lisp? 19:35:14 rodyaj [~user@57.39.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:25 dlowe: In your mapcar example, I see what the lambda function does, but why have a special term for that kind of function? 19:35:25 adeht: The Pitman article on the condition system was enlightening, thank you. :) 19:35:31 There's no need for a "context" parameter for mapcar to pass to your incrementer function, it's implicit 19:35:40 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:35:59 ckoch786 [~ckoch786@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:06 Poenikatu: because not all functions are necessarily closures. 19:36:20 dlowe: So what? 19:36:28 So we have a name for the difference :p 19:36:29 Closures are just a way to make variables work sanely everywhere, even though you can return functions. 19:37:00 We're programmers. Naming things is what we do. 19:37:23 Poenikatu: indeed after you get used to having closures you tend to take them for granted and just use the term "function" 19:37:24 hi. Can someone explain why this macro doesn't work with mapc? I know the macro is pointless, but I'm just using it as an example. http://paste.lisp.org/display/140608 19:37:27 dlowe: But I don't understand the point of the difference. In what way is it useful to be able to distinguish them. 19:38:17 You can't distinguish them, programmatically: they're just functions, from the programming perspective. 19:38:21 adeht: dlowe: I shall just go on learning. 19:38:40 kristof: his other papers are pretty good too :) 19:39:12 Poenikatu: While you're programming in lisp, there's not much point in the distinction. The idea of a closure is most interesting for implementors and comparison with other languages 19:39:35 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-59-229.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:39:40 I can see that bu using variables in a (let ... clause in functions defined in that clasue, then the functions are accessing values which cannot be tampered with accidentally. 19:39:49 rodyaj: you need to distinguish macroexpansion time from runtime 19:39:51 rodyaj: the macro (probably) works fine, it's just that it nils the argument, achieving little. 19:39:51 And, like I said, there are some cool things you can do with closures that you can't do with just function pointers 19:40:38 You have effectively (lambda (x) (setq x nil)), which is a no-op. 19:40:39 Are there sure things as `function pointers'? I seem to remember that pointers are invisible to a Lisper. 19:40:41 one of the more interesting is being able to chain closures together to make a program during run time 19:40:52 Poenikatu: I'm comparing across languages 19:41:19 dlowe: I suspect that I'm unfamiliar with the languages you are thinking of. 19:41:55 Poenikatu: no, there are just functions. You can pass them, create them, etc freely. 19:42:20 Certainly, Algol 68 has no marcros, but I invented macros for use with Algol 68 in a Literate Programming System. 19:42:25 It's the implementation's responsibility to make sure that cases that can be compiled efficiently (ie, known function calls) are. 19:42:26 rodyaj: (gen-var var) expands to (setq var nil).. the symbol VAR in the first form is passed to the macro, which returns the latter form 19:42:55 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:43:34 Anyway, back to `ANSI Common Lisp'. The next chapter is about Symbols. Probably lots to learn there. 19:43:51 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43:53 Poenikatu: you might be happier with Practical Common lisp 19:44:03 Poenikatu: since you've already done a lot of work with ALGOL 19:44:33 dlowe: No, I've given up on Seibel's book. It has no exercises and no index. So it's impossible to find anything in the book. 19:45:00 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-208-154.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:45:08 chitofan [dcff028c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.140] has joined #lisp 19:45:33 Right, it's an introductory book, meant to be read from start to end. 19:45:34 At least Grahams' book has a comprehensive index and an appendix with explanations of every symbol that appears in the CL standard. 19:45:47 *dlowe* shrugs. 19:46:34 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:46:38 Poenikatu: if the next chapter is Symbols it means you're at the I/O chapter, and you've read the Functions chapter a while ago.. the Functions chapter shows pretty good (simple) examples for the use of closures 19:46:58 dlowe: I did try with `Practical Common Lisp', but, having written a book about a programming language myself, I am familiar with the dynamics of such a task. And PCL accords with neither my experience nor my book. 19:47:00 Poenikatu: the "function builders" 19:47:26 adeht: Where? 19:47:45 6.6 19:47:46 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:48:23 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:38 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:44 I have to admit that `destructuring-bind' leaves me cold. I just really understand it at all. 19:49:58 -!- chitofan [dcff028c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.220.255.2.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:50:24 (destructuring-bind (&key a b c) (list :a "foo" :b 1 :c "bar") ...) 19:50:39 Poenikatu: you do or do not understand it? 19:50:42 destructuring-bind is quite awesome I would say 19:50:52 Poenikatu: in On Lisp PG explains it rather well 19:51:21 *don't 19:51:22 adeht: And I have also to admit that I did not understand the Dylan function builders. Too abstruse for me. 19:51:30 adeht: Maybe I'm just getting old. 19:52:01 The nice thing about an introductory book is that it gives you food to think about in an order that builds up comprehension, instead of throwing things at random at you, expecting that something sticks. 19:52:16 adeht: I have a copy of On Lisp, but that will have to wait until I have at least finished ACL. 19:53:00 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 serichsen: Theoretically yes, but in practice, most authors of books about programming languages have not learnt how to teach: most of the books are pretty vile. 19:53:43 Poenikatu: yeah.. so my suggestion wrt to things you don't understand yet is to hold judgment.. just take it easy and play with them later 19:54:24 adeht: That's sound advice. I shall persever. I have already decided not to learn C++. I prefer the power that CL gives. 19:54:32 *persevere. 19:55:54 slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:55 Poenikatu: teacher and student need to find a common language. Sometimes it fits, sometimes it doesn't. It is often hard to say whether it is the teacher's or the student's fault. Do you know the parable of the tea cup? 19:56:44 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:06 snama1 [~snama@148.163.197.77.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:20 -!- ckoch786 [~ckoch786@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:57:23 I've printed a copy of the Dylan function builders and I shall study it later. 19:57:32 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:57:45 serichsen: No 19:58:45 cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD2601.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:08 ckoch786 [~ckoch786@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:07 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 20:00:44 jewel [~jewel@105-236-25-199.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:03:29 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:05:38 Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has joined #lisp 20:06:02 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@203.Red-88-9-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:08:11 milosn [~milosn@genkt-058-042.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:11 -!- daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:10:16 Poenikatu: There was a famous teacher of . A student came to him. The student told the teacher of the books he had read and the things he had found out and what he hoped to learn from him. The teacher asked him whether he wanted a cup of tea. The student said yes. The teacher poured him a cup of tea, but he did not stop when it was full. When it spilled over, the student screamed "what are you doing? The cup is full!" 20:10:16 The teacher said, "You are like the tea cup, full. You need to empty the cup before I can pour more tea." 20:10:21 daimrod [daimrod@sbrk.org] has joined #lisp 20:13:03 -!- ck [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:13:41 serichsen: I understand. I need to empty my conscious mind of all its experience of other programming languages. Not easy, I can assure you. 20:13:58 i didn't like PCL that much myself, but many other people do like it a lot. 20:14:09 Ogion [~Ogion@203.Red-88-9-226.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:43 prxq: Well, that's comforting. 20:15:21 prxq: In the book I wrote, I gave suggested solutions to all the exercises. 20:15:28 Poenikatu: closures are functions that close over other stuff. Of course they are just functions as well. It is just terminology. 20:16:11 I agree that that is often helpful. But sometimes it is a matter of space, too. 20:16:35 prxq: It's the `closing over' that I don't grasp. The phrase seems to have no relationship with the meaning of `close'. 20:16:58 prxq: Space? 20:17:12 closes over like a shell or a fist, perhaps? 20:17:22 Poenikatu: yes, length in number of pages 20:17:48 Aha. *That* is meaningful 20:18:21 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 20:18:47 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:22:25 thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:47 adeht: prxq: Can we come back to Graham's point that the #' read-macro cannot be used to represent closures? Why not? 20:26:12 adeht: (or anyone) I've revised my macro to use an eval so that it sees the actual value of var, but then it doesn't have the variable from the lambda in scope. http://paste.lisp.org/display/140609 I tried copying the variable to the body of the mapcar but now it only works for the first element of the list and stops. Any idea why that is? 20:28:57 rodyaj: there is a very recent comp.lang.lisp post exemplifying the same misunderstanding of macros.. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/tze_Vm9nM3g 20:29:01 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 20:31:28 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 20:31:57 -!- rodyaj [~user@57.39.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:19 -!- _paul0 [~paul0@177.16.145.252] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 20:35:06 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:08 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:03 Poenikatu: this sentence as-is is meaningless, because reader macro don't represent anything, they read stuff returning read objects. That's all. 20:38:10 Qmynd has a mapping such as +mysql-cs-coll-latin1-swedish-ci+ :iso-8859-1... is there a list of charsets found in all implementations? 20:38:29 Poenikatu: now of course, such a lisp object could be a closure. 20:38:50 actually the :iso-8859-1 is then given to babel, that might be the authoritative list I'm looking for 20:38:53 #.(let ((x 42)) (lambda (inc) (incf x inc))) is a reader macro use that reads a closure. 20:39:16 (let ((c #.(let ((x 42)) (lambda (inc) (incf x inc))) )) (list (funcall c 0) (funcall c 1) (funcall c 0))) --> (42 43 43) 20:39:37 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:39:38 Poenikatu: frankly, I don't understand that sentence. 20:40:08 Poenikatu: perhaps what was meant is that a reader macro cannot return a function that has free variables enclosed from the lexical scope where it is read. 20:40:47 (let ((x 42)) #.(lambda (inc) (incf x inc))) returns a function that doesn't enclose the variable x defined in the LET. 20:41:09 This is because the function object is built before the let form is even finished to be read. 20:42:36 Poenikatu: i think you can skip it and consider it a slipup by the author. It would not be the only one in that book. 20:42:42 But #' is a reader macro that returns a function form, such as #'(lambda (i) (incf x i)) is read as (function (lambda (i) (incf x i))) and such a form would enclose the free variable in the lexical scope without a problem: (let ((c (let ((x 42)) #'(lambda (inc) (incf x inc))) )) (list (funcall c 0) (funcall c 1) (funcall c 0))) --> (42 43 43) 20:43:11 Since (let ((x 42)) #'(lambda (inc) (incf x inc))) is equal to (let ((x 42)) (function (lambda (inc) (incf x inc)))) 20:43:42 (equal '(let ((x 42)) #'(lambda (inc) (incf x inc))) '(let ((x 42)) (function (lambda (inc) (incf x inc))))) --> T 20:44:11 rodyaj [~user@57.39.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:55 pjb: You've definitely lost me. I shall go back to Graham's book and persevere with learning the language. 20:45:39 pjb: I understand your example using (equal. So I'm not dead yet! 20:45:58 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 20:47:18 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:48:02 Poenikatu: I think he means what is becomes apparent in the following. Try (car (quote #'(lambda (x) (* 2 x)))) 20:48:39 So actually #'(lambda (x) (* 2 x)) is just read as (function (lambda (x) (* 2 x))) 20:48:54 #' reads and return a form that when evaluated, will return a function. #' doesn't read a function. 20:49:00 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:49:04 right. 20:49:19 pjb, I agree 20:49:57 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 20:52:03 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:54:18 Insanity` [~kelesh@84.238.252.102] has joined #lisp 20:54:22 -!- Insanity` [~kelesh@84.238.252.102] has quit [Client Quit] 20:59:20 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:03 OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-ef9de155.42-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:00:13 -!- Poenikatu [~user@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has left #lisp 21:00:59 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:06:08 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:36 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:06:48 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 21:08:35 -!- cgore [~cgore@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:09:51 eMBee [~eMBee@static.199.240.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 21:09:57 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@static.199.240.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Changing host] 21:09:57 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 21:11:50 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-ef9de155.42-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:12:10 OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-ef9de155.42-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:12:18 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:14:42 is utf8mb4 :utf32? 21:16:30 turns out it's proper utf8 21:17:13 Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:17:29 Hello everyone is cliki.net down? 21:17:56 so it seems 21:17:58 -!- cabaire [~nobody@p5DCD2601.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:18:05 http://cliki.net:8080/ works 21:18:47 ah :D 21:18:49 ty 21:19:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.176.196.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:24:44 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:25:05 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 21:25:39 adeht: do you know why that is so? 21:27:31 smithzv [~user@c-50-165-5-61.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:39 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:28:33 -!- Patzy_ [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:28:50 prxq: nope 21:31:25 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:57 why does this macro only work for the first element in the list? http://paste.lisp.org/display/140609 21:32:26 (list passed in to macro with mapc) 21:34:16 your diagnosis is wrong 21:34:44 it works for all elements 21:35:05 but you would write the same thing in a much easier way, you don't actually need a macro 21:36:27 rodyaj: the macro is expanded only once (during compilation of the second form). It then executes the eval on whatever is in myvar. The mapping does nothing. 21:36:31 ? (mapc (lambda (v) (set v nil)) '(v1 v2 v3)) 21:36:31 (V1 V2 V3) 21:36:31 ? (list v1 v2 v3) 21:36:31 (NIL NIL NIL) 21:37:19 rodyaj: also, you should try to follow a book. Your intuition is leading you astray, I think. 21:37:27 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:06 or: (dolist (sym symbols) (setf (symbol-value sym) nil)) 21:38:13 but the real question is: why do you want to do this? 21:40:20 no, this is not the real question. The real question is why rodyaj thinks that the macro in question will do that. Which is, I think, due to a (fairly typical) misunderstanding of how macros work. 21:40:23 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:58 prxq, apparently some server got set back to it's default port set not to conflict with the standard one as is common practice for web servers, especially "alternative" ones, java servers, etc. 21:45:50 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-bjdyuntwioosqfng] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:46:52 that or a new one with that property is being brought online and the old one serving the standard port is off line, perhaps due to a resource conflict 21:47:32 that's the standard practice, then you switch the new/alternative thing to 80 after it's checked out on 8080 21:47:36 lllshamanlll [~lllshaman@146.66.163.140] has joined #lisp 21:48:23 rodyaj: What you pasted does not work at all. It only seems to do anything because your Lisp image still has bound variables from your previous attempts. 21:50:27 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51:23 -!- mindCrime [~prhodes@rrcs-98-101-159-194.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:52:29 -!- lllshamanlll [~lllshaman@146.66.163.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:54:32 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:54:40 Can anyone recommend a Common lisp implementation that works on a Raspberry pi with slime? GNU clisp crashes when I start slime, and ccl (clozure?) causes subversion to crash when I try to download it. I don't have root access on the machine and ftp isn't installed on it, so whatever you recommend must be downloadable with subversion. :-) So, to summarize: subversion-downloadable implementation that works on Raspber 21:55:33 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:55:40 (I'm trying to test lisp programming on my friend's raspberry pi, to see if it's viable. If it is, I'll get my own) 21:56:00 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 21:56:16 -!- Acheront` [~user@204.116.186.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:17 maybe you're finding it isn't, at least not with "normal" effort 21:56:55 also are you using an implementation oriented for embedding? 21:57:00 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:57:10 OldContrarian: CCL is known to work well on RPi 21:57:13 so I cannot use macros to replace the names of variables in place in code? 21:57:23 It's undoubtedly starting to look that way, but I'm not willing to give up just yet. Anyway, I'll meet my friend (the owner) tomorrow, then I can ask him to install ftp and I can download ccl using that. 21:57:57 Juan: You mean if I'm using a lisp implementation oriented for embedding? 21:58:04 TRTTD IMO is use a lisp intended for embedding, there's more than 1 21:58:17 -!- Lis [~Lis@p3E9E821A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:59:28 antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-sonstnpjxbnqdwys] has joined #lisp 21:59:47 could try lisp500 :D 22:00:02 Lisp500? 22:00:02 dim: ECL also works, doesn't it? 22:00:32 I just don't know 22:00:38 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:00:45 Looking at ECL... 22:01:07 Denommus: does ECL work in slime? 22:01:07 ECL compiles to C. It even works in Android, it should work in RPi 22:01:10 dim: yes 22:01:14 cool 22:01:17 dim: but its interpreter 22:01:26 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:02:14 -!- Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has quit [Quit: Yanez] 22:02:51 *dim* trying CCL after a long time without using it... 22:03:11 not on a RPi tho 22:03:15 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB32E3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:03:40 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:12 Well whaddyaknow, ECL can be downloaded with git, and git is actually installed on my friend's RPi. 22:04:24 rodyaj: http://paste.lisp.org/+30HT/2 22:06:09 rodyaj: what serichsen says. And grab a book :-) 22:06:46 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:07:25 ok I see now that some of the variables I was testing must be left over. And I'm in the middle of reading a book. As for (myvar) that was just typo 22:07:42 rodyaj: you could use (mkupack). 22:08:26 (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive) (use-package :com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive) (mkupack) 22:08:33 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:01 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.106.217] has joined #lisp 22:09:24 rodyaj: none of the names should be callable according to the shown code. 22:10:25 -!- antgreen [green@nat/redhat/x-sonstnpjxbnqdwys] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:10:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-211.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10:49 is it even possible to do what I am trying (and failing to do) without external packages? 22:11:05 well I mean, with macros 22:11:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.106.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:51 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:13:44 rodyaj: what are you trying to do? 22:14:14 dim: I would say that CCL is the best implementation when SBCL isn't (when you're on Windows, or on some hardware that SBCL doesn't support, for instance) 22:14:22 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-201-166.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:16:00 -!- slarti [~anonymous@104-252-AGAVEBB-NM.abq.nm.agavebb.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:13 ccl has callbacks and ARM and windows and fast compilation! 22:17:04 and requires patching to be able to fork() in a way that isn't immediately followed by exec() ;) 22:17:57 Quadrescence: a program compiled with SBCL will usually be faster, it has some type inference, doesn't ignore type annotations (and it will usually give you warnings if you use the wrong type), and it also has its own amount of useful features 22:18:07 to a new lisp users who's not using neither Emacs nor vim on a daily basis, and is using a mac, what IDE or editor would you recommand? I just tried the windowed CCL and am unimpressed 22:18:28 pjb: I have a function that creates keybinds for my window manager. Name for the keybind can be passed in with e.g., 'cycle-firefox. I want to change the 'firefox' part to whatever app, and I thought that would require a macro as it is editing code 22:18:29 -!- killmaster [~killmaste@70.105.249.5.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Changing host] 22:18:29 killmaster [~killmaste@unaffiliated/killmaster/x-109233] has joined #lisp 22:18:37 but anyway, one should make portable code, and use the right compiler for the target platform 22:18:55 thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:04 Denommus, thankfully everyone is writing numerical code so SBCL is definitely the right choice to make things faster 22:19:11 dim: I would still recommend Emacs 22:19:21 rodyaj: I don't see how you would require a macro. You're far from compilation time. 22:19:23 pjb: when I say passed in I don't mean as an argument 22:19:27 you're managing windows! 22:19:30 yeah what I'm thinking Denommus, having a look at LispWorks 22:19:31 This is at run-time. 22:19:32 dim: I'd recommend learning Emacs enough to deal with SLIME (not much) 22:19:50 p_l: dim: and also paredit 22:20:04 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:20:05 paredit makes all other languages seem painful :-/ 22:20:33 Denommus: happily, you can use parentheses in almost all languages. 22:20:56 Denommus: in languages like Ruby that only have expressions, you can use it 100% of the time. 22:21:23 Denommus: agreed, apparently there's a new solution, smartparens or something, that I didn't try yet 22:21:27 In languages that distinguish expressions from staments, you can still use it for all expresions, and you can activate support for {} and [] too. 22:21:57 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.106.217] has joined #lisp 22:22:05 pjb: it will not be like Lisp. The AST will still be hidden from you 22:22:22 Yes, but close enough. 22:23:03 pjb: e.g., I want to generate that skeleton multiple times, replacing fileman with browser, editor and so on http://paste.lisp.org/display/140612 22:23:27 dim: I'd recommend emacs 22:23:31 Denommus: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.ruby/HayEZUu5Yug/aJ-n6q3k_FYJ 22:24:29 rodyaj: what if I install a new program, SuperWebffice? Will I have to recompile the window manager? 22:25:39 it's probably part of a configuration file. 22:25:43 pjb: that is, at most, funny to look. I don't think I would use this kind of style in a serious project 22:26:05 rodyaj: is define-whatever actually a macro? stumpwm has a define-key that's actually a function. 22:26:23 in my config I have a list of lists with app, command, type, class. I would add the information for it there and it generates a keybind that cycles the app 22:26:38 Lispworks doesn't want my business =p 22:27:57 KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9CE42.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:28:17 pjb: it is not a macro 22:28:27 This is a good thing! :-) 22:29:05 So (defun install-program (name) (define-cycle-command-pair (intern (format nil "CYCLE-~A 22:29:42 pjb: it is librep for sawfish. Using "define" as first sentence explains here: http://sawfish.tuxfamily.org/librep.html/Definitions.html 22:29:50 So (defun install-program (name class) (define-cycle-command-pair (intern (format nil "CYCLE-~A" name)) (intern (format nil "CYCLE-~A-BACKWARD") name) (app-selector (filter-byclass (string-capitalize class)) (string-downcase class)))) 22:30:02 so perhaps it is a macro 22:31:07 the fact that it takes quoted arguments would hint it's a function. 22:31:50 it is found in http://web.mit.edu/Ghudson/dev/nokrb/third/sawfish/lisp/sawfish/wm/commands/x-cycle.jl 22:32:24 ok can't load sqlite nor informatimago charset systems into LispWorks 22:32:33 so no (ql:quickload "pgloader") for me there 22:32:36 gee, this doesn't look much like cl. 22:32:37 too bad 22:33:11 looks like a function, though. 22:34:37 dim: perhaps, you're using the student memory limited edition? 22:34:54 it was other errors, but with Personal Edition yes 22:34:55 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:35:45 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.106.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:38 dim: be more specific with the error messages or nobody can help you. 22:36:47 I know 22:36:54 just too tired and not interested enough 22:37:00 sorry not to have mentionned that 22:37:29 charset contains encodings metadata (character ranges mapping to unicode), so it's rather big. 22:37:40 was just trying LW out of curiosity for a respected well-integrated IDE that ediware is using among others (Marijn too, from Postmodern, I think) 22:38:26 Does sbcl do unicode by default? 22:38:33 kristof: yes. 22:38:36 Yes. They all do. 22:38:37 Sounds... sane 22:38:43 you can check :sb-unicode in *features* 22:38:44 Is that part of the standard? To do unicode. 22:38:49 ha, no. 22:38:49 **++++ Error between functions: The function argument in (DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO PREPENDF) must be a symbol, but got (LAMBDA (TAIL &REST LISTS) (APPLY (FUNCTION APPEND) (APPEND LISTS (LIST TAIL)))). 22:38:52 You have to pass special compilation time options to a few old implementations to fall back to iso-8859-1. 22:38:54 kristof: no. 22:39:03 i don't think unicode was even released. 22:39:05 Bike: Ah, I think I saw that once while perusing the features list 22:39:10 pjb: up to you to decide if that's conforming or not ;-) 22:39:19 Bike: Unicode was a Plan9 thing, standard was '93 22:39:21 you only need, what, 96 characters? 22:39:24 it's from [package com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list] btw 22:39:25 dim: doesn't looks good, I'd say. 22:39:25 Unless we're talking about the guy steele spec 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@62.33.153.231] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:20 By the way, has anyone contacted the maintainers of Cliki? 22:40:28 dim: but yes, clhs says it should be a symbol. 22:40:38 Thanks for the bug report :-) 22:40:40 We should have a mirror system in case this happens again. I'll volunteer some money to host a mirror for cliki. 22:41:17 pjb: my pleasure, maybe someday I will be able to load pgloader into LW and evaluate the IDE 22:42:16 kristof: cliki is still available on port 8080 22:42:25 kristof: not sure why it's not running on 80, but it is around 22:42:49 clhs standard-char 22:42:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_ch.htm 22:44:41 Bed time. See you guys tomorrow, and thanks for your help earlier. 22:45:14 dim: commited and pushed onto http://gitorious.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago.git 22:45:35 nice, thanks, will test next month with next QL release I guess 22:45:47 I had other problems with loading SQLite FFI lib 22:46:29 I mean, I will continue using Emacs here, evaluating the IDE is not pressing 22:47:30 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.106.217] has joined #lisp 22:52:29 -!- OldContrarian [~OldContra@c-ef9de155.42-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Bye] 22:54:11 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:25 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-71-202-128-245.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54:27 -!- Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:57:19 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has left #lisp 22:58:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.106.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:58:40 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:59:53 -!- rodyaj [~user@57.39.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:00:11 -!- serichsen [~user@x2f119d4.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Good night!] 23:02:42 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:03:33 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:54 -!- thepreacher [~thepreach@202.79.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:04:02 microt [~caustic@c-67-169-99-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:12 foreignFunction: Oh, so it is! Has anyone asked them about what's going on on port 80? 23:12:02 ei? wha? 23:12:59 oh, you probably meant fortitude 23:13:20 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:40 foreignFunction: ...I did 23:13:42 foreignFunction: ^^ 23:13:45 FFFFFFFF 23:13:48 did it again 23:13:52 Oh well, he'll see it 23:14:35 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:14:44 mindCrime [~prhodes@ip-64-134-184-29.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:17:15 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 23:17:21 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4db42e1f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:20:20 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 23:21:41 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:23:45 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Client Quit] 23:25:01 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-59-229.w90-3.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:30:23 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30:50 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 23:38:57 -!- microt [~caustic@c-67-169-99-96.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:43:01 -!- xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.201.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:43:12 -!- snama1 [~snama@148.163.197.77.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.8] 23:43:44 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.201.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:45:18 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 23:45:29 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:47:58 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-108-42-99-156.snfcca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:29 Who stole the port 80? 23:55:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:27 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:58:05 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.39.109] has joined #lisp 23:59:34 The garbage collector 23:59:43 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@120.154.148.106] has joined #lisp