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[~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 00:53:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:56:54 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:09 anyone here a cliki admin, seems to be down 00:59:31 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:00:41 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:03:21 -!- knob3212 [~knob@adsl-72-50-120-233.prtc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:06:18 It's been down since early, yesterday :( 01:06:58 Petit_Dejeuner mentioned it is still available on port 8080 01:12:17 railly [~lilin@211.142.247.94] has joined #lisp 01:13:00 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:13:08 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 01:14:08 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 01:16:21 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 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[~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:48:28 Is it normal for slime to syntax-highlight the first feature-expression and make the others appear as comments? 01:48:31 -!- ozialien_ [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:48:46 Talking about #+ and #- reader syntax 01:48:52 what, you have like #+foo #+bar code? 01:48:57 right 01:49:03 do #+(and foo bar) instead 01:49:20 Bike: but if I need to do different things :P 01:49:28 for different mutually exclusive features 01:49:41 So you have #+foo code #+bar other-code? 01:49:44 #+sbcl #+clisp . . . 01:49:46 yes. 01:49:56 This is just the pathnames library from Practical Common Lisp. 01:50:01 i'm getting contradictory signals here. 01:50:07 ? 01:50:19 Do you have code between them or not? 01:50:22 Yes. 01:50:50 just show the bloody code 01:51:09 antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 01:52:35 Here's an example. #+(or sbcl cmu lispworks) (directory wildcard) #+openmcl (directory wildcard :directories t) will cause emacs to highlight the first feature-expression but cause the entire body of the second to appear as a comment. 01:52:55 that is because you are not running openmcl 01:53:04 OH 01:53:15 well, naturally, what else do you expect it to do? 01:53:17 you can switch the order and the openmcl one will still be commented. 01:53:51 It just did not occur to me that the syntax-highlighting would be tied to the implementation associated with my slime repl 01:53:54 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:54:09 This makes sense, thank you :) 01:54:16 and it's not tied to the implementation 01:54:26 It's tied to the features present 01:54:47 But it's a way of letting me know which expressions are going to be read and which aren't, via my current setup 01:55:31 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:41 -!- n0n0 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[~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:15:54 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 03:19:09 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:40 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:23:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:23:08 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-dniyzkzwnfenrqrh] has joined #lisp 03:28:40 meltingwax [~meltingwa@meltingwax.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 03:29:39 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:31:23 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:29 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 03:33:07 -!- ZombieChicken [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 03:33:33 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.119.87.188] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 03:34:29 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:37:52 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 03:42:16 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:43:47 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:41 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 03:46:30 is there aways to get the equivalent of this -> http://paste.lisp.org/display/140558 03:46:40 ...that works 03:47:22 i could just use slot-value but that would lose any accessor functionality 03:47:31 use fdefinition. 03:47:48 (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,accessor)) ...) 03:48:21 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 03:48:50 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 03:49:09 Bike: ah indeed, cheers 03:52:53 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-50-132-3-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:31 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:53:39 madalu 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04:38:36 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:38:52 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 04:40:35 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 04:46:01 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:47:49 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.83.65] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:48:40 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 04:49:15 -!- meltingwax [~meltingwa@meltingwax.xen.prgmr.com] has left #lisp 04:49:18 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.83.65] has joined #lisp 04:52:04 Do you all find it easier to just use quicklisp than to rely on people packing software for linux distributions? 04:52:59 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54:16 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 04:55:01 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:58:02 I like quicklisp 04:58:08 I do, too 04:58:34 for stumpwm I use the git clone of it, but sometimes after a fresh git pull the build fails unless I do a quicklisp load of it (stumpwm) in the repl 04:58:42 In fact I think quicklisp is a better option than packaging software for different distributions manually 04:58:47 After having thought about it 04:58:57 The only problem is trying to ship software to people 04:59:13 Well, you could always just ship an image. 05:00:22 minion: memo for mathrick: Yesterday (I think it was yesterday?) you mentioned something about shared libraries for common lisp. What would this look like? Is that different from simply fasls? 05:00:22 Remembered. I'll tell mathrick when he/she/it next speaks. 05:07:05 oxum [~oxum@122.164.111.88] has joined #lisp 05:09:50 -!- revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:11:03 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 05:12:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.245.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:12:15 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:12:44 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:13:49 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:04 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:15:56 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has joined #lisp 05:16:22 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 05:17:21 revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has joined #lisp 05:17:39 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 05:20:41 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:22:56 -!- drl [~lat@125.162.194.126] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:26:23 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@pool-71-252-177-42.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:28:05 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:28:54 Kenjin [~kenjin@103.30.114.162] has joined #lisp 05:30:54 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has left #lisp 05:32:59 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:09 alezost [~user@128-70-193-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:27 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-228-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 05:35:00 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:35:15 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-2.dab.02.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:38:02 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 05:39:50 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:40:17 redscare [~Adium@18.111.39.25] has joined #lisp 05:41:20 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 05:41:50 haskell has what i think is a nice way of encapsulating state and avoiding passing around lots of arguments  its a state monad, and it basically sets the state for the execution of a function, which you indicate with (basically) it's type. this means that it is trivial to give any function access to a particular state. is there something similar in common lisp? global variables would work for this but it feels like an ugly solution 05:42:48 "encapsulation of state" is not really the point of the state monad. 05:43:08 Giving some function access to a "particular state" somes to be more suited to the Cont monad. 05:43:17 But anyway, what exactly is it you're trying to do? 05:44:01 so i'm writing a fairly complex algorithm, and it's split up into many small functions 05:44:39 the issue is that now i see that it makes sense to update certain values in places where they were not passed 05:45:13 furthermore, even though a function's main purpose may be to return a particular value, it makes sense to update another, more "background" value at the same time 05:45:24 basically, trying to avoid recomputation 05:45:47 my argument/return lists will be getting pretty huge if i don't find a way to "encapsulate" the state of my algorithm 05:46:47 What you're looking for is either simply using setf and global variables, or actors. 05:47:03 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:35 as in one is a full replacement of the other? 05:48:03 I didn't meant setf, I actually meant using let with dynamically scoped vars 05:48:11 And not replacement, but rather, different ways of doing things. 05:48:21 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:48:21 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:48:42 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 05:49:10 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 05:49:12 kristof: just to double-check, in common lisp variables are not automatically dynamic, correct? 05:49:32 It depends on what you want. If you're in context 1 which requires var1 to be set to A, sometimes it is useful when jumping to context2 to dynamically set var1 to be B, and then when you return from context2 back to context1 var1 is reset to A 05:49:41 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has joined #lisp 05:49:46 redscare: defvar defines dynamic variables. 05:50:06 redscare: Simply using variables in let forms or function definitions makes them lexical. 05:50:34 kristof: thank you for the clarification 05:51:04 redscare: So the arg vars you use in (defun fun (arg arg arg)) will be lexical, yes, but the vars you define with defvar will be dynamic 05:51:20 It's not about lexical or dynamic by default, it's about where you're defining variables 05:51:27 redscare: In a possibly similar case, I have a generic function that traverses an AST. I couldnt use something like cl-monad-macros state monad, because dispatching wouldnt behave, so I had a separate `context` parameter that was a plist of additional state, and used multiple-value-bind/-call as necessary. 05:51:34 loke` [~user@116.50.79.76] has joined #lisp 05:51:55 -!- Petit_Dejeuner [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:52:13 kristof: fyi, you can use dynamic variables that aren't globally dynamic, with constructs like (let ((*foo* 7)) (declare special *foo*) ...). it kind of is a matter of lexical by default 05:52:20 Petit_Dejeuner [~saefa@c-174-48-40-89.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:29 redscare: So anyway, the context thing I was saying would be an excellent use of dynamic vars, but if you were doing something else that required you to just keep state somehwere else and not worry about 05:52:49 jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:52:50 Bike: Didn't know that. 05:53:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:54:13 kristof, sellout-: thank you both for the advice. i am not in a place of stable internet, so i have to go, but i will probably have more questions about this later :) 05:54:15 -!- redscare [~Adium@18.111.39.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:54:22 Oh :( 05:54:25 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:54:27 I was about to say something more useful 05:54:50 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has joined #lisp 05:54:53 Heh :) 05:55:25 He could have defined an object to keep track of some state, and then pass a message to that object everytime he wanted to update the state 05:55:48 kristof: Thats basically what my suggestion was. 05:55:52 The object is a plist. 05:56:02 sellout-: Oh, didn't see that 05:56:07 sellout-: Mmmm, generic functions. 05:56:18 -!- loke` [~user@116.50.79.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:19 The nice thing about a plist is that you can do (next-function object (list* :foo updated-foo context)) without worrying about getting the old state back after that call, and you can (setf getf) if you really want a permanent change. 05:57:57 Sometimes I wonder why plists and alists are in the same language 05:57:59 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:23 because the append semantics are real convenient, as sellout just demonstrated 05:58:42 kristof: I use both. plists EQ-compare, so the keys are restricted. 05:58:55 sellout-: And what are the advantages of alists, then? 06:00:04 hrmmm, I don't have much to complain about, anyway. 06:00:04 Krystof: You can use numbers, strings, etc. as keys, for one, also theyre meant to be symmetrical  you can look up by car (assoc) or cdr (rassoc) easily. 06:00:24 Not that you couldnt implement rgetf easily. 06:00:35 sellout-: Wrong Kris 06:00:58 Whoops. That one will be like what is this nonsense sellout is spouting? 06:01:13 I believe Krystof is the one in charge of SBCL 06:01:23 Yeah, I know Krystof. 06:02:51 -!- gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:03:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:04:50 protist [~protist@115.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 06:07:03 jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:09:08 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:09:35 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.83.65] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 06:10:57 pillton [~user@124-148-37-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:11:50 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:12:41 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 06:18:45 jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:31:02 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.111.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:32:12 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:32:39 ggole [~ggole@58-7-127-164.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:34:19 oxum [~oxum@122.164.102.153] has joined #lisp 06:35:00 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 06:35:30 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:35:51 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:35:52 jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:44:14 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-107.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:47:38 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:48:40 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 06:53:11 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:55:19 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:56:05 milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-47-9.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:26 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 07:01:59 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 07:02:24 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:16 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04:26 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:04:37 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kvvtclhlreopwdan] has joined #lisp 07:07:21 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:59 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:09:22 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 07:09:37 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 07:12:25 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 07:12:39 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-kvvtclhlreopwdan] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:13:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 07:13:35 Hello. Having a function (or a call to function) how do I express the intent to pass "read only" arguments? In other words, is it a way to ensure that this argument will not be changed inside the function? 07:13:44 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:13:50 STilda: no. 07:14:06 CL uses pass-by-value, so your question doesn't make sense. 07:14:12 sh-armv7l [~sthalik@2001:41d0:2:9d7b:cafe::1042] has joined #lisp 07:14:16 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:48 If you mean not to modify mutable objects bound to the arguments ... then CL doesn't have that distinction. 07:15:46 Ok, if I make a wrapper class with slot that have only reader, will this not work? 07:15:58 STilda: why bother? 07:16:36 ++ 07:16:40 stilda: Sure, that would be a polite way of asking people not to try modifying it. 07:16:53 polite? rather, annoying 07:16:58 Used to declare args as const in c++, so that I know for sure what to expect from function 07:17:20 STilda, think the lisp way - the issue doesn't exist 07:17:26 STilda: we don't have constants in common lisp, so better abandon the concept. 07:18:40 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:18:46 ok, so what does "think the lisp way" mean in this case? 07:18:49 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-zfokzauhmhvjcoki] has joined #lisp 07:18:52 Well, CL does have constants, but they're a bit different. 07:18:57 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:19:16 STilda: it means that you don't use the language to express "constness" in the way that you do in c++. 07:19:25 (defconst ...) but it is NOT real const :D 07:19:41 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:53 STilda, it means in general not to copy from other langs verbatim. you'll know when you get more XP 07:22:11 Ok, I understand that I still think in terms of c++, but how do I avoid "occasional change of arguments problem"? Is there a rule to not change arguments? Or how do you adress this issue in a big projects with a lot of contributors? 07:22:16 STilda, If you were really worried you could pass a copy in explicitly. (foo (my-copy data-1) (my-copy data-2)) 07:22:50 Petit_Dejeuner: this can be expansive 07:22:53 STilda: i suppose you usually just mention modification in the docs/api. like how reverse doesn't alter its argument. 07:23:10 You might not want to write a lot of functions that do anything but read anyway. 07:23:40 I tend to avoid setf and anything like it. 07:23:46 STilda: there are no big projects with a lot of contributors in common lisp 07:23:56 Generally, you should expect lisp functions not to modify things. 07:24:03 ^ 07:24:18 But the type system isn't set up to support what you want in any case. 07:24:54 It's more a matter of promising the compiler about what you will do so that it can produce UB if you don't. 07:25:44 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-19-162.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:04 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:27:17 maybe CL impl. may do such a thing if it like 07:28:30 Zhivago: What is UB? 07:28:41 undefined behavior 07:29:17 Ok, thank you all, I get it 07:29:24 in other words, the type system is pretty optimization-geared 07:29:40 adding some declaring stuffs ? 07:30:32 i.e. (declare (+foo+ const)) 07:32:05 zRecursive: does it exist or just a way it could be? 07:32:16 not yet 07:32:32 sykopomp [~sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 07:33:25 e.g. (declare (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (speed 3)) (fixnum base power)) but i neve see any const 07:34:06 s/nev/never 07:35:12 sbcl has an internal annotation for functions that alter their arguments. it's probably not in much demand to be exposed, though. 07:36:53 btw, Pascal/Delhi does not have const args as well. (In the sense that passed objects are guaranteed to be untouched) 07:37:31 so maybe that is not tha big issue as I think 07:37:58 sure 07:39:49 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 07:39:59 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:41:27 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42:37 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:38 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:44:46 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:48:40 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:49:26 -!- heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:51:46 Bike: what is the annotation? 07:51:58 it's not on the declaration level. 07:54:51 Bike: name with specific symbol? 07:55:32 i checked and misremembered. 07:55:50 er, i should have mentioned by "internal" i meant "sbcl implementation detail" 07:56:01 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has joined #lisp 07:57:04 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:58:35 Bike: ok, that is how I understood it 07:59:09 ok then, the ir1 attributes i was thinking of are in src/compiler/knownfun.lisp, but they're mostly about side effects 08:00:27 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 08:00:40 of course, this seems to be overkill for someone who doesn't lisp long 08:00:57 also, remember that even internal annotations are just promises 08:00:59 yes, it's not really relevant. 08:01:04 probably shouldn't have mentioned it 08:01:12 nah, it's interesting ;-) 08:03:01 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-erfyeqidhgbhmewf] has joined #lisp 08:09:02 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0058.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 08:13:19 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 08:18:09 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:21:31 -!- Bike [~Glossina@71-222-63-213.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:22:28 Bike [~Glossina@71-222-63-213.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:47 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:52 -!- pillton [~user@124-148-37-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:26:23 It's easy. Just fork sbcl with the implementation detail exposed. 08:30:22 maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has joined #lisp 08:30:29 xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.153.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:47 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-ukgvllvvtnyoeofb] has joined #lisp 08:32:19 -!- harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-ukgvllvvtnyoeofb] has quit [Client Quit] 08:32:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:38:42 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:39:03 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:40:25 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:41:15 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:27 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-75-94.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:44:49 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.5] has joined #lisp 08:45:27 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 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sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:12:01 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:12:21 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:13:21 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:13:26 ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.44] has joined #lisp 14:14:16 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 14:14:45 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:15:26 danlentz_ [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:20 alezost` [~user@128-70-193-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 14:16:47 is there like a huge userbase that comes to this channel during america's sleepytime? 14:17:02 victor_lowther_ [sid17606@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ccbpgwezfdlfzfas] has joined #lisp 14:17:09 pesky europeans 14:17:19 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@rrcs-71-40-112-220.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:34 :) 14:18:18 dender [~dender@193.105.154.12] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 kbtr_ [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:04 -!- kbtr_ [~kbtr@li198-73.members.linode.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:19:35 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.153.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:45 ramus_ [~ramus@c-50-132-91-53.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:59 sklr [~clarkema@31.222.178.169] has joined #lisp 14:20:38 seems like when I come here during my afternoon there's like 15 people here 14:20:55 And how many now? 14:21:02 16 14:21:03 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:22:51 PuercoPope [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has joined #lisp 14:22:52 iwilcox_ [~iwilcox@unaffiliated/iwilcox] has joined #lisp 14:23:52 -!- 16WABRA5O [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:23:52 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.6.8] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:23:52 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [*.net *.split] 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peer] 14:34:40 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:36:27 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 14:36:53 -!- dender [~dender@193.105.154.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:37:31 -!- micfin [~micfin@91.229.248.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:39:51 -!- Guest46138 [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:42:46 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 14:43:26 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:43:55 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:14 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-191-230.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:47:18 oxum [~oxum@122.164.201.68] has joined #lisp 14:47:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 14:47:42 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:51:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:23 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:55 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:55:12 -!- sixbitslacker [~fn@headache.hungry.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:58:07 42 15:00:08 revolve_ [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has joined #lisp 15:00:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:20 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:02:35 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 15:04:05 24 15:05:15 The correct answer is 23. 15:05:45 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:05:46 42 gets my vote 15:06:31 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.132.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:06:40 nil 15:06:46 the correct answer is nil 15:09:35 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] 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quit [] 16:57:40 -!- em-bee is now known as eMBee 17:00:45 -!- brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:03 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:03:26 Anyone know what happened to the Cliki? 17:04:07 -!- rudi_ [~rudi@1x-193-157-244-253.uio.no] has quit [Quit: rudi_] 17:04:46 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 17:05:18 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 17:05:32 p_nathan: it's still available on http://cliki.net:8080/ 17:05:36 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:06:36 who administers the front-end? 17:07:42 That doesn't seem to be documented. http://cliki.net:8080/CLiki 17:08:27 Perhaps vsedach? In anycase, the sources are on github, so I guess you could take over it? 17:10:00 Tech Email: drewc@tech.coop 17:10:13 Looks like Drew Crampsie 17:10:53 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:16:05 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 17:17:38 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 17:20:04 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Client Quit] 17:20:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:22:08 delatel [~delatel@91.210.101.50] has joined #lisp 17:22:18 -!- CrazyEddy [~pectorilo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:24:40 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-20-98.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25:35 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:26:12 -!- delatel [~delatel@91.210.101.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:26:58 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 17:27:28 -!- hugod is now known as Guest91711 17:30:27 -!- Guest91711 is now known as hugoduncan 17:30:48 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 17:31:09 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:37:04 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 17:37:38 hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 -!- hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:38:16 -!- bege_ is now known as bege 17:38:30 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 17:38:48 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 17:38:48 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 17:38:48 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:38:55 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:10 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 17:39:11 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 17:39:11 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 17:41:04 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:41:46 -!- tomaw_ is now known as tomaw 17:44:05 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-ehcowjwaewkwlpzb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:47:50 WoutvdW [~kilian@NYUFWA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-EXP01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:49:07 rudi_ [~rudi@cm-84.215.158.89.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 17:52:18 -!- hugodunc` is now known as hugoduncan 17:53:27 -!- reb [user@nat/google/x-pqkencvhfbzurlkc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:57:12 reb [user@nat/google/x-mqtihpxhtfnmpslc] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@187.208.219.175] has joined #lisp 18:01:53 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-9-10.dab.02.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:19 cnl [~pony@95.83.132.55] has joined #lisp 18:03:06 -!- zophy_ [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:05:19 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:11:10 -!- WoutvdW [~kilian@NYUFWA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-EXP01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:15:06 -!- reb [user@nat/google/x-mqtihpxhtfnmpslc] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15:21 joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has joined #lisp 18:15:28 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:15:39 Why aren't you able to make subclasses of strings, lists, and other built-in datatypes? 18:16:11 I remember reading a Daniel Weinreb post complaining about the lack of "thorough object-orientation" throughout the language. 18:16:11 kristof: because not everything is a class in CL 18:16:22 dlowe: strings and lists are classes 18:16:42 makes things slower and takes more memory for representation, kind of 18:16:48 lists aren't even types :p 18:16:51 I see 18:17:00 Bike: Well, that can be said for all of CLOS 18:17:17 Bike: But sometimes it would be nice to be able to define your own, say, implementation of streams or hash tables 18:17:20 milosn [~milosn@dab-rcn1-h-53-4.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:26 ...I'm not smart enough to do anything with that, but I think other people are 18:17:35 yes, but manipulating objects doesn't as always have to be as fast as you'd like arithmetic to be 18:17:37 most implementations support gray streams, which will do what you want 18:17:45 Joe Marshall used MOP extensively to create persistent vectors because the default ones weren't good for immutable operations (extensive copying) 18:17:54 your own hash table is just a matter of writing new code 18:18:08 yeah, i'm not sure why you'd want to /subclass/ hash-table. 18:18:25 I'm not sure why I would, either, but the Joe Marshall one was a good example, I think. 18:18:57 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:58 I guess the fact that he could do it with MOP showed that it wasn't necessary to fudge with the implementation of vectors 18:19:16 there's the sequences extension, too, to make your own sequence classes. 18:19:27 But (and maybe this is naive) it feels a little strange that essentially the CLOS part of Lisp lives way over there in one corner, and the basic data types live in another 18:19:43 Bike: For some reason I thought you couldn't define your own sequences 18:19:51 You can't, that's why it's an extension. 18:19:55 Oh. 18:20:07 Bike: Is that part of CLOS, or an extra library? 18:20:31 An extra thing. SBCL has it as sb-sequence and ABCL has it as sequence. google "crhodes sequences" for the paper, probably. 18:20:45 Basically it redefines map, find, etc. to be generic. 18:20:46 CrazyEddy [~unatteste@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:21:04 you'll find that you can do most anything in CL if you're willing to sacrifice portability across implementations 18:21:25 Ok. 18:21:35 Which is great if you're writing an application, but can be hard if you're writing a library 18:21:42 I guess "not all implementations are created equal" is a good justification for that. 18:21:47 -!- hugoduncan is now known as hugod 18:22:01 dlowe: There are plenty of good libraries out there that say "we only support x y and z implementations" 18:22:44 Bike: I'll look into it if I ever need that functionality. 18:22:55 -!- ehu` [~ehu@62.140.132.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:22:58 Oh, I just rememberd, MOP isn't even part of standard CLOS, anyway. 18:23:08 So I have no real reason to complain about this. 18:23:37 Not that I was complaining, just trying to get to the bottom of this. Thanks, you two :) 18:24:13 well it's basically historical. 18:24:39 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:24:40 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:07 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:25:22 it's the all purpose lisp excuse :D 18:25:41 superbonus [~superbonu@91.210.103.20] has joined #lisp 18:25:49 one of these days someone is going to jettison this historical baggage and take over the world. 18:25:58 Which historical baggage? 18:25:59 (that someone will almost certainly not be me) 18:26:44 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 18:26:52 i didn't mean it as an excuse. all the stuff i said before is excuse. history is just the reason. 18:27:04 I see. 18:27:23 in this case the "historical baggage" is that CLOS postdates most of the language. 18:27:29 Ah 18:27:37 And that is what Weinreb was complaining about (RIP) 18:27:45 I don't mean to detract from CL, but a lot of times, the answer to "why is this lisp thing weird?" is "oh, it's historical" 18:28:02 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:28:25 dlowe: I'm coming from a "modern" lisp (clojure) and I'm not really finding anything strange at all. Turns out CL is not crufty :) This has been the only real strangeness I have discovered so far. 18:28:46 kristof: does clojure let you subclass integers 18:29:04 Bike: No, but it lets you create your own datatypes that participate in some abstractions, like streams 18:29:19 -!- Cheery_ is now known as Cheery 18:29:51 ah. yeah. 18:30:02 Bike: I think most of the basic datatypes were designed to participate in abstractions and just be the standard implementation of those abstractions just in case someone comes along and wants to do something differently, MOP style. 18:30:34 -!- superbonus [~superbonu@91.210.103.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:40 qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@rrcs-71-40-112-220.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:07 Which is an excellent bit of foresight, but shadowed by the unforgiving JVM :) 18:31:16 the problem is basically in the /sub/classing, i think. if you could just add a distinct implementation of some thing (like numbers, or sequences) that wouldn't really impact performance much since there's already dispatch going on. 18:31:35 but say, if you can subclass integer, instead of number, now all integer-specialized methods have to be prepared to deal with your class 18:31:58 maybe this is why haskell's typeclasses work like they do. 18:32:16 That might be less of a (performance) problem on the JVM 18:32:20 With all their speculative junk 18:32:22 gorelova [~gorelova@91.210.102.176] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 Bike: Okay, I agree with you on this. A substantially performant solution, then, would be to allow something like numbers or sequences have separate implementations that all have methods for the basic functions defined on them. 18:32:56 yeah. that's what the sequences extension does. 18:32:56 Bike: But to not make subclasses. "Separate implementations" was what I was looking for, but only the word "subclass" came to mind. 18:33:01 There are a lot of libraries that make it easier to be portable now 18:33:02 Right, alright :) 18:33:14 kristof: yeah, the distinction is what i was thinking out loud about. 18:33:17 across implementations that is 18:33:24 I can tell! But you can only jury-rig so much that hasn't been supported by the implemenation. 18:33:31 note that you can define generic functions and methods on built-in classes 18:33:31 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-rcn1-h-53-4.dab.02.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:33:45 rudi_: Yes, but extensibility is not quite the same thing. 18:33:58 -!- gorelova [~gorelova@91.210.102.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34:03 Er, hold on 18:34:16 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 18:34:44 If I defined my own datatype my-sequence, and just extended the sequence operations to work in a particular way on my-sequence with some DEFMETHODs, wouldn't that work in exactly the same way? 18:35:03 that's what extensible sequences (and gray streams) are about 18:35:17 So that's probably just how that library does it? Cool :) 18:35:57 kristof: I don't know that the standard mandates that am implementation allow defmethods on functions in CL 18:36:14 przl [~przlrkt@p5DD1451B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:36:20 clhs length 18:36:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 18:36:20 it means the implementation has to use generic functions for stream (or sequence) operations instead of functions. That's why you need either implementation support or implementation-specific code in your library 18:36:36 Oh, I see 18:36:49 kristof: note that length is not specified to be a generic function 18:36:53 kristof: extensible sequences define generic equivalents of some of the usual functions, and also an iteration protocol you can fill in to get some automatic implementations (so you don't have to define find and find-if and find-if-not and etc) 18:36:54 bevzenko [~bevzenko@193.104.110.146] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 jasom: That's probably how Common Lisp does it to begin with, though. There must be a generic function called length - 18:36:59 oh :( 18:37:21 Bike: so it shadows some function names and reimplements them as generic functions 18:37:22 kristof: you can shadow the CL functions in your own package to get similar behavior, but not identical 18:37:26 ok 18:37:29 that's why it needs implementation support, so that the CL functions can call the generics. 18:37:45 What implementations do that? 18:37:51 that's why we say "sbcl and abcl have extensible sequences support" 18:37:55 ok 18:38:00 I understand now, thank you all :) 18:38:03 -!- bevzenko [~bevzenko@193.104.110.146] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:38:07 for example, try looking at sbcl's definition of 'find' 18:38:30 kristof: nothing prevents you to introduce CLOS objects for strings and numbers. 18:38:41 pjb: Right, I suppose so 18:38:52 Bike: Is there a performance tradeoff for using generics instead of vanilla functions? 18:39:18 they are already CLOS objects, just that the metaclass of their classes is not extensible 18:39:40 Ok. 18:39:43 strings and numbers are certainly not standard-objects 18:39:49 kristof: of course 18:40:11 I seem to have woken up the entire channel :) 18:40:35 we love to nit-pick each other, yes :) 18:40:58 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DD1451B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:24 kristof: there is a performance tradeoff, yes. SBCL eliminates a lot of it by having a good type-inference engine though. But IIRC even when it can open-code the call there is still some overhead 18:41:46 By the way, I just discovered CLACK. It looks very cool but I'm not entirely sure where it fits into the grand scheme of lisp webstacks. How much of web-blocks and UCW are reusable, for instance? 18:42:02 the thing is that clos is dynamic. generic function call sites have to be ready to deal with methods defined after they were compiled in, that kinda stuff 18:42:09 I see 18:42:24 I think that might be where a JIT compiler would fit in quite well, by tracing method calls 18:42:29 (shadow 'string) (defclass string () ((characters :initarg :characters :reader characters))) (defmethod print-object ((self string) stream) (prin1 (characters self) stream)) (defun read-string-object (stream ch) (unread-char ch stream) (make-instance 'string :characters (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable nil))) (read stream)))) (set-macro-character #\" 'read-string-object nil) 18:43:11 well, sbcl already does some jit stuff with generics, but it's always going to be slower than static determination. 18:43:47 Then you can easily do things like (defclass upcase-string (string) ()) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((self upcase-string) &key &allow-other-keys) (setf (slot-value self 'characters) (string-upcase (slot-value self 'characters)))) (make-instance 'upcase-string :characters (characters "Hello")) 18:43:49 pjb: What exactly are you doing with the read-table there? 18:43:52 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-127-164.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 18:43:58 Oh, I see 18:44:05 kristof: So that "Hello" reads an instance of my:string instead of cl:string. 18:44:09 yeah 18:44:26 kristof: I had a performance-critical library I had to change from a defgeneric to a defun with an etypecase; the code was already pretty tight so it got a significant improvement. 18:44:37 Of course, you will have to re-implement all the string functions (hopefully, as methods this time). 18:44:41 now you just need to rewrite every CL function involving strings. cake 18:44:55 pjb: Of course, but by implementing them as generics you get the (...useless) flexibility 18:44:57 Easily enough, you can write a macro to forward the calls. 18:45:16 But I can imagine that something like regex would become much slower using generics instead of funs 18:45:17 *jasom* thought string was a class (not a standard-class, but a class) 18:45:22 it is a class 18:45:24 it's a built-in-class 18:45:28 chornii [~chornii@91.210.101.136] has joined #lisp 18:45:34 so why can't you use generic functions with it 18:45:39 which is, to say, "not really a class, but we'll let you use it in method specializers" 18:45:41 You can. 18:45:47 can't (necessarily) subclass built-in-classes. 18:45:53 but you can define methods on string, yeah. 18:45:55 (defmethod eat ((self string)) (concatenate 'string "Eating " self)) 18:46:41 jasom: As others have said, the only problem is to make the other class-specific functions call the generics instead 18:46:53 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:17 kristof: but you don't need to do the readtable mucking unless you want to subclass string 18:47:33 -!- qw3rtman [~qw3rtman@rrcs-71-40-112-220.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:47:51 the readtable mucking is just so that literal strings become your strings instead of cl strings. 18:47:58 nothing to do with subclassing particularly 18:48:09 przl [~przlrkt@93.209.69.27] has joined #lisp 18:48:22 Yeah 18:48:46 I suppose that's a neat trick to keep in my for the future should I ever need it. 18:48:49 *my mind 18:49:42 Bike: but you don't need literal strings to be a standard-class unless you are going to subclass them 18:49:55 -!- chornii [~chornii@91.210.101.136] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:06 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has left #lisp 18:52:42 rangers [~rangers@91.210.101.165] has joined #lisp 18:53:27 -!- przl [~przlrkt@93.209.69.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:53:33 brown` [user@nat/google/x-dofbjxdikcfitnmo] has joined #lisp 18:54:18 przl [~przlrkt@p5DD1451B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:57:20 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:58:25 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@user-38q42ns.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:59:04 _5kg_ [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 19:01:54 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 19:02:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DD1451B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:03:33 -!- rangers [~rangers@91.210.101.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:05:52 -!- _5kg_ [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:11:52 kristof: similarly, with a print-object and a reader macro, you could have numbers be instances of some user defined class. 19:11:59 or any other kind of object. 19:13:23 -!- acieroid` is now known as acieroid 19:14:06 aftershave [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 19:17:31 _5kg_ [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 19:18:41 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-75-94.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:14 scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:23:52 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:25:39 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-236-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:25:44 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30:50 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:31:35 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:22 Is there something like EVERY that behaves as if it was called EXISTS, or do I have write it myself using NOT and EVERY? 19:33:47 SOME 19:34:06 cf also NOTANY and NOTEVERY 19:35:07 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 19:35:19 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:35:23 thx 19:37:04 NOTANY <-> SOME ... consistent naming common lisps strong suit :) 19:38:51 -!- nightshade427 [nightshade@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fedb:a448] has left #lisp 19:38:57 *lisp's 19:38:59 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:07 Oh man i missed just hacking some lisp, implemented CTL model checking in 58 lines including input parsing and i'm done! 19:41:15 (I initially read 'common lisps' as a set with CL, scheme, etc. in it) 19:41:29 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:41:29 JuanDaugherty: sorry 19:42:09 np, I'm probably only one 19:45:51 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-191-230.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:48:58 milosn [~milosn@genkt-056-213.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:49:26 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-98-115-155-232.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:27 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:18 milosn_ [~milosn@genkt-056-213.t-mobile.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:52:24 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-171-223.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:27 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:52:59 -!- milosn [~milosn@genkt-056-213.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:53:00 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has joined #lisp 19:53:07 nicknotused [5a3c4131@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.60.65.49] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 -!- oleo is now known as wbooze 19:54:12 wchun [~wchun@81-233-226-189-no38.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:54:13 -!- wbooze is now known as oleo 19:56:23 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:56:29 billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-135.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 -!- billstclair [~billstcla@p-74-209-20-135.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:56:29 billstclair [~billstcla@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:56:52 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@78.46.188.214] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 19:56:55 hello i need help about graph theory, if i note the graph G what represent G-1 (I don't find this notation on internet) 19:57:25 gemelen [~gemelen@gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:34 -1 is eponent 19:57:35 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:57:40 exponent 19:58:31 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 G¹ 19:58:42 yes 19:58:56 Type: G M-x 8 RET SUPERSCRIPT MINUS RET M-x 8 RET SUPERSCRIPT ONE RET 19:59:07 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has joined #lisp 19:59:31 antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 19:59:39 I don't know this notation. Where did you find it? 19:59:56 -!- milosn_ is now known as milosn 20:00:56 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:01:25 in an algo to find strongly connected components 20:01:30 URL 20:01:35 where = url? 20:02:47 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:03:20 ok but it's not in english so i can traduce 20:04:42 exec the depth first search and sort the vertex in the decreasing order 20:05:02 then calculate G-1 20:05:50 then execute depth first search with G-1 "DPS(G-1)" 20:06:36 That seems quite clear. 20:06:36 nicknotused: No offense, just trying to help, but traducer is "translate" in English 20:06:59 -!- rudi_ [~rudi@cm-84.215.158.89.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: Client exciting.] 20:07:22 And what makes you think I don't speak French? 20:07:30 yes sorry translate 20:07:58 *pjb* is offended. 20:08:08 pjb: Didn't mean to imply anything of the sort (also, same verb in Spanish), just trying to help someone with their English vocab 20:08:13 nicknotused: No need to be sorry :) 20:08:14 pjb: it's an english chat so i can't know your skills :) 20:09:17 Even the dumbest internet user in 2013 knows that google provides a free translating service! 20:11:06 lol Which would probably give you "OK Corral however it is not English in, llama I can transducer" 20:11:21 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:11:28 i translate just the words that i don't know but my english is certainly indistinct sorry 20:11:28 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:29 Check your lecture notes. 20:12:51 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:12:54 nicknotused: Your English is really quite good. If it wasn't, I wouldn't bother pointing out one word ;) 20:16:44 thanks heddwch and pjb it's a good idea but it's in the course of the last year and an UFO stole them to me :) 20:16:49 nicknotused: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongly_connected_component#Algorithms 20:17:03 what you say sounds like Kosaraju's algorithm 20:17:09 haha :) 20:17:19 in which case G^-1 means transposed graph 20:17:28 see the linked wikipedia page 20:20:02 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:20:40 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 Is there an default emacs key binding for reducing a set of whitespace at the cursor position to a single space? 20:22:34 thanks fiveop it's probably but apparently the notation -1 is rare 20:23:00 probably that* 20:24:41 <|3b|> fiveop: m-space? 20:26:31 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:47 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCB61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:52 macro prolly 20:32:53 -!- wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:34:37 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:34:56 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 20:35:07 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:36:24 wyan [~wyan@ec2-54-246-94-212.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 20:37:24 -!- nicknotused [5a3c4131@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.60.65.49] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:39:35 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:04 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #lisp 20:40:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:40:51 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:41:46 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:55 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:42:21 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:39 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:44:07 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:44:26 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:50 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 20:45:13 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:27 -!- Eylusion [~Matthew@107-222-6-86.lightspeed.tpkaks.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:47:55 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:49:42 Is ther a common-lisp that runs on AS400? 20:50:02 ibm ? 20:50:06 duh 20:50:07 yeah 20:50:10 hahahha 20:50:42 hmm, dunno 20:50:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:51 jasom: as long as it is ppc and linux 20:50:54 there were several lisps running on ibms it seems 20:50:55 jasom: there's linux for the AS400, AFAIK. so ECL should be an option. 20:51:11 got it 20:51:34 SBCL, clozure 20:51:50 RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-65-130-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:52:04 jewel_ [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:52:39 Is there a more elegant way to make effective-slot-definition-class conditional on the slot initargs, than what marijnh did here: https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/postmodern/table.lisp#L94 20:52:40 -!- RiskyBlit [~riskyblit@91-65-130-97-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:45 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:52:59 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:59 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:54 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:54 it's not quite clear to me what's being done here 20:55:04 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-228-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:56:27 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57:06 joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:09 he uses a variable with dynamic scope to pass the fact that a slot should be one of his column slots to effective-slot-definition-class 20:58:20 because comput-effective-slot-definition ((class standard-class)) doesn't process the initargs of subclasses of standard-effective-slot-definition to effective-slot-definition-class 20:58:52 I guess one could reimplement compute-effective-slot-definition, as an alternative 20:59:30 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:54 you can't reimplement it 21:01:27 well you can reimplement its functionallity in the method for ((class your-class)) 21:01:35 and not call call-next-method 21:01:38 you can't 21:01:44 you can't? 21:01:48 as in, it's not allowed 21:02:19 "Primary Method compute-effective-slot-definition (class standard-class) name direct-slot-definitions ": "This method can be extended, but the value returned by the extending method must be the value returned by this method." 21:02:24 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925079461.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:03:32 having different slots for a class doesn't seem like a good idea, i would just have a different metaclass for this case 21:05:25 but, the initargs are passed to effective-slot-definition-class, so, why not use them? 21:07:08 or are they not the same as the ones for direct-slot-definition-class? that explains it then 21:07:47 fiveop: I don't know what you need that for but I've found this emacs hack really, really nice: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/AutoIndentation 21:08:14 fiveop: See the part about "kill and join forward". If you kill a line, it'll also kill the indenting-whitespace at the beginning of the next line because obviously you don't want it 21:08:41 Anyway, that's my guess at why you want to kill all whitespace at point until a newline 21:08:52 and you guessed right :) 21:08:56 :) 21:08:59 It's magic 21:09:23 fiveop: The entire page is magic, too. I like autoindenting on hitting return, and especially autoindenting yanks 21:09:46 stassats: I think I have auto indent on return 21:10:11 wrong person 21:10:23 sorry 21:10:36 seems like only the standard initargs are passed effective-slot-definition-class 21:10:37 And I believe the default keybinding for auto-indent is C-j 21:11:29 stassats: which makes sense. for direct-slot-definition-class it can just pass all the args given in a defclass form. for effective-slot-definiton-class it would have to somehow combine those from all the direct-slot-definitions collected from the class and its super classes 21:13:13 that's one of the roughest parts of MOP 21:13:42 inheriting slot properties is a pain 21:13:48 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:13:48 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:13:48 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:14:42 (when (> (length direct-slot-definitions) 1) (error "Not supported!")) 21:14:44 for now :P 21:15:50 just have a single slot class, and then determine if it's special using a slot in it 21:16:26 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:18:33 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 21:19:33 Adlai [~Adlai@bzq-109-66-4-146.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:33 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@bzq-109-66-4-146.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:19:34 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:20:45 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 21:21:17 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 21:21:43 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:22:09 drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.230] has joined #lisp 21:23:20 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:25:51 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:27:27 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:30:04 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:32:08 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:35:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:38:19 WoutvdW [~kilian@NYUFWA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-08.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:38:40 -!- EvW1 [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:d1f0:fb74:8c7b:7d2b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:38:50 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:43:39 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:44:04 matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:08 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:18 haz1 [~harry@87.117.251.51] has joined #lisp 21:49:26 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:50:37 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 21:50:53 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 21:51:03 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:52:40 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:54:39 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55:56 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:57:23 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:58:31 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:58:37 psyllo [~psyllo@2600:1010:b118:17ad:f8ac:7b0d:baab:65e4] has joined #lisp 21:59:48 -!- psyllo [~psyllo@2600:1010:b118:17ad:f8ac:7b0d:baab:65e4] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:51 francogrex [~user@109.128.81.95] has joined #lisp 22:03:12 yet another something that looks cool written in lisp: http://pvs.csl.sri.com 22:03:26 did anyone use it or know of it? 22:03:58 I had some fun with it a long time ago. 22:04:23 Customers don't want automatically proven programs :-( They want quick-and-dirty programs. 22:04:56 What's nice with pvs, it's that the user interface is done in emacs. 22:05:00 pjb: so it's main core is common lisp then? 22:05:09 Otherwise, nowadays, there's the coq suite. 22:05:21 I'm not sure if it was in CL. 22:05:37 it could be elisp 22:05:48 Ah yes, it's written in CL, allegro cl or sbcl. 22:05:51 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 22:05:53 ACL2 is written in CL too. 22:06:41 ASau` [~user@p54AFF3A5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:41 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:07:49 madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has joined #lisp 22:08:14 it seems like ACL2 in many aspects 22:08:38 anyone, nice stuff - I won't go into its details for sure 22:09:15 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 22:09:24 -!- yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:25 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 22:09:36 We would just need more time to enter into them and use them. 22:09:39 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:09:46 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #lisp 22:09:55 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D6D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:10:06 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 22:11:16 -!- ahungry__ [~null@66.184.106.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:12:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:13:01 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:42 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:55 pjb and ACL2 have you already used it (for your work for example) ? 22:18:01 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 22:18:03 Same as with pvs, just installed it and tried it out. 22:18:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:19:34 ok. I think I'll do the same, play around with both for a while to experiment, learn.. 22:20:11 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 22:23:47 -!- eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:24:43 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:26:43 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:26:45 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:50 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:28:46 eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has joined #lisp 22:29:57 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-180-199.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 22:29:57 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925079461.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:32:03 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177937317.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:33:24 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:33:45 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:37:25 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.79.68] has joined #lisp 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:43:20 noncom|2 [~noncom@93.185.177.160] has joined #lisp 22:44:11 Natch_j [~Natch@c-63cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:44:55 refried_ [~refried_@lawn-143-215-121-121.lawn.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 22:45:25 -!- madalu [~user@unaffiliated/madalu] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:46:11 -!- Natch [~Natch@c-63cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:46:12 -!- Natch_j is now known as Natch 22:46:38 hi, i am trying the first code of line from here https://github.com/BradWBeer/CLinch/wiki/GLFW%20Tutorial%201 which is (quicklisp:quickload :cl-opengl) and get an error that System (cl-opengl) is not found... what am i doing wrong? 22:47:32 BobSchack [~pschuck@nat.wicourts.gov] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 -!- BobSchack [~pschuck@nat.wicourts.gov] has left #lisp 22:47:51 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@172.242.21.170] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 22:48:32 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 (quicklisp:quickload :cl-opengl) ; works well here. 22:49:30 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:49:42 Maybe update Quicklisp, if it's not the latest version? 22:49:50 Perhaps yes. 22:49:58 just downloaded it from the official website.. 22:50:06 however, there is a syntax error in it 22:50:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:50:45 Guthur [~user@eth2845.sa.adsl.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:52 this line 22:50:55 (defun install (&key ((:path *home*) *home*) 22:50:55 ((:proxy *proxy-url*) *proxy-url*)) 22:51:31 ((:path *home*) *home*) is said to be Illegal parameter definition... 22:51:58 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:52:50 uhh.. idk.. never used CL before, just other lisps so i am not familiar with what exactly the error might mean.. 22:53:08 -!- fortitude [~mts@rrcs-24-97-165-124.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:54:49 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-193-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:55:44 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:50 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:56:06 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 22:57:24 what implementation are you using, exactly 22:57:29 You have to install quicklisp, also 22:57:58 (load "wherever/quicklisp.lisp") (quicklisp-quickstart:install) 22:59:44 i am using Dandelion for Eclipse which comes with both CLISP 2.49.2 and SBCL 1.1.8. I have tried both. 22:59:59 -!- mathrick_ is now known as mathrick 23:00:07 does the installation of quicklisp has to be done for each project individually or is it system-wide? 23:00:21 It's user wide by default. 23:00:30 adhollander [~adh@169.237.167.181] has joined #lisp 23:01:08 well the thing is, it's a fine parameter definition 23:01:34 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.81.95] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:04:51 maybe it is a Dandelion issue.. but what the wonder.. 23:04:56 (ql:system-apropos "open-gl") gives NIL 23:05:52 well, that's because it's called "cl-opengl", not "cl-open-gl". 23:06:02 oh, sorry (ql:system-apropos "cl-opengl") 23:06:07 gives NIL too 23:06:13 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:06:33 well it always returns nil, it prints ut the results. 23:07:10 did not print anything though 23:07:19 neither in the repl not in stdout 23:08:26 i think this is a Dandellion issue really.. 23:08:27 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:08:34 setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 23:09:37 but maybe not.. coz it talks directly to a lisp environment.. 23:13:57 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:14:13 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:27 -!- setmeaway [~setmeaway@118.45.149.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:15:50 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 23:18:09 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 23:18:18 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:36 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@unaffiliated/chibapet] has joined #lisp 23:20:26 -!- antgreen_ [~green@dsl-173-206-31-160.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:20:57 slyrus [~chatzilla@137.164.119.50] has joined #lisp 23:21:02 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:21:22 Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:05 -!- milosn [~milosn@genkt-056-213.t-mobile.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:22:34 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:23:21 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzZZ] 23:25:23 setmeaway [oosool3@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 23:26:15 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 23:28:16 nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:39 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.148] has joined #lisp 23:29:24 -!- nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:29:42 nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:21 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:26 -!- nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:32:26 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:50 nullFxn [~nullFxn@cpe-174-103-20-40.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:52 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FCB61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:36:27 felipe [~felipe@unaffiliated/felipe] has joined #lisp 23:37:16 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:42:36 setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 23:43:18 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:40 -!- setmeaway2 [~setmeaway@118.45.149.241] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:44:02 setmeaway2 [stemearay@118.45.149.241] has joined #lisp 23:44:18 -!- setmeaway2 [stemearay@118.45.149.241] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:49:10 -!- akbiggs [~akbiggs@64.215.161.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:51:46 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:505a:5a70:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:54:27 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.192.242] has joined #lisp 23:59:11 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.169.73] has joined #lisp