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ZZZzzz] 00:30:01 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 00:32:48 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:52 -!- Guest51176 [~on@83.Red-83-43-31.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:36:50 quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:38:41 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:28 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:41:38 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:43:09 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 00:47:01 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:47:02 -!- n0n0_ [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:50:41 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:52:06 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:55:36 runningskull [uid21100@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bndhyogaqkcedplm] has joined #lisp 00:59:20 -!- runningskull [uid21100@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bndhyogaqkcedplm] has quit [Client Quit] 01:02:16 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5000:7910:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:03:11 -!- keltvek [~keltvek@unaffiliated/keltvek] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:05:20 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:05:45 -!- conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:06:07 Too bad, cl-quizz had only two quizzes. 01:07:09 Instant quizz: what CL constant is not of a number type? 01:07:19 T 01:08:12 Ok, so there are three CL constants that are not a number type. I missed T and NIL (*^.^*) 01:08:48 (Well, I have them in my list, but since they're not font-locked the same color) 01:10:28 :direction 01:10:39 It's in KEYWORD, not in CL. 01:10:53 *kristof* shrugs 01:12:03 By the way, a "virgin" CL image has between 242 and 1969 keywords already interned! 242 for ABCL, 1195 for clisp and the others are over 1788. 01:12:07 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:12:07 pjb: Apparently it's lambda-lisp-keywords 01:12:17 And we have a winner! 01:12:23 :^) 01:12:31 lambda-lisT-keywords 01:12:32 Oh, uh, I mean list, not lisp. 01:12:46 That is the third time I've made that typo this week. 01:13:16 Oh, so you can't redefine &body 01:13:38 That might be awful if you could 01:13:55 You can bind it lexically, yes. But you can't bind or fbind it globally. 01:14:08 The famous 11.1.2.1.2 rules. 01:14:12 pjb: But would that necessarily change its behavior? 01:14:20 Who knows! 01:14:24 I guess it would, in the lexical context 01:14:42 I don't see any use for that. Unless you want to "fix" the way &optional &keys works 01:14:50 (putting them in the same arg list, I mean) 01:14:58 The implementation is free to do (when (member (first args) lambda-list-keywords) (funcall (first args) (rest args))) when processing the lambda lists. 01:16:18 I would guess the use of lambda-list-keywords being user available would be for hand processing lambda lists in a macro, but I've never used it (nor was I aware of it) 01:16:50 Well, no, you can add keywords like that in your macros without a problem. 01:17:19 But this constant is to let the user macros know what keywords the implementation knows. sbcl and cmucl have additionnal lambda-list keywords. 01:17:21 pjb: but to subtract them you need the list 01:17:45 The only problem is that you don't know the syntax that should follow them :-) 01:18:24 pjb: true:} in practice it is probably most useful as a form of on-line documentation/discovery 01:18:26 But at least if you take in a macro a lambda-list, you can detect a lambda-list keyword, and know that you don't know it, and therefore defer to the implementation. 01:18:41 e.g. "I better check out this &MORE thing" 01:18:47 It can be essential to the correct implementation of some macros. 01:22:25 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-213-163.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:58 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 01:23:26 seangrove [~user@rrcs-173-196-16-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:24:12 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:10 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32:03 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:32:36 Bike_ [~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:37 -!- InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:34:12 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-213-163.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:36:34 kristof: actually, the BOOLE-* constants could 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[~hitecnolo@46.233.212.143] has joined #lisp 05:17:19 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 05:19:38 conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:17 alezost [~user@128-70-193-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:25 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-85-3.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:27:39 Good morning everyone! 05:27:39 beach, memo from pjb: after further analysis, I reach the same conclusion as you: environment should contain binding, and symbols should be common to all environment, as other values. That means that we need to extend an implementation (or write an implementation over another), to provide those environment. 05:27:39 beach, memo from pjb: however, for methods I don't think that's necessary to include them in the environment, since find-method works on class (and other for eql) objects; Therefore in two environments, we'll either have the same class (eg. (find-class 'integer)), or different classes even if under the same name (find-class 'car) -> # or # depending on the environment. 05:28:05 hm? did i miss something? 05:28:19 Hi Bike. LispOS talk. 05:28:39 About environments? 05:28:44 Yes. 05:29:41 The question is how to protect users from each other and how to protect the system from the users. First-class environments is one possible solution. 05:30:18 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:30:45 isn't genera single-user by design? 05:30:53 minion: memo for pjb: I hear you about the methods. I'll look into where I wrote that. 05:30:53 Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 05:31:10 sthalik: But we are not talking about Genera here. 05:31:16 ok 05:31:49 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:32:53 beach: glancing through i don't see context in the logs, so i'll mention a side thing - i think there's a lot of unnecessary combination of three types of environments in CL. lexical ones (which don't include things like classes), global ones, and global ones somehow used for discrimination between compile and load and other time "environments", like find-class's environment argument seems to be used for 05:32:55 minion: memo for pjb: It is great that we agree on such an important point as first-class environments. That could mean a lot more work to be shared in the future. Also, there is a reason I am working on a new implementation, which does have first-class environments. 05:32:56 Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 05:33:03 What's so bad about first-class environments? Sounds like best possible solution. 05:33:23 who said they were bad? 05:33:43 pjb initially had a different solution in mind. 05:34:11 I don't think anybody said they were bad. It is just a bit surprising to think about things that way in the beginning. 05:34:12 Bike: dunno, I missed that talk. 05:34:57 i think there might be interesting things possible by using environments as the unit of library dumping, but i dunno shit about loaders. 05:35:27 Bike: Your sentence was cut off after "seems to be used for...". 05:36:13 that's where i stopped. perhaps i should use more punctuation 05:36:18 Oh. OK. 05:36:36 Bike: Why do you think the combinations are "unnecessary"? 05:37:06 I mean, I think that conflating them into one thing doesn't work. 05:37:19 I see. Sure. 05:37:29 perhaps i should also learn to write more clearly 05:37:33 heh. 05:38:33 To me, it was a great revelation to imagine the global environment as being first-class. It made many things in the CLHS a lot more clear to me. 05:38:44 i guess basically i think there's a lot more that can be done with environments. in an issue for make-load-form or somesuch there's a comment that everything dealing with forms should take an environment argument, but you can't really /do/ much with the things 05:38:50 I'm just curious, LispOS was discussed hundreds of times but have anyone actually done anything? 05:39:10 People have done various things. 05:39:10 movitz 05:39:12 beach has a lot of stuff. 05:39:36 Personally, I've concluded that a LispOS is a bad idea, unless you're taking the Android approach. 05:39:55 Which is to avoid writing an OS, and instead impose an organizational structure over an existing one. 05:40:44 I see. 05:41:12 Bike: You mean you can't do much with the environments? 05:41:22 There doesn't seem to be any real benefits left in avoiding processes, or writing six million incredibly boring device drivers. 05:41:24 Zhivago: It will keep me off the streets :) 05:41:50 Sure -- personal amusement is justification for many otherwise pointless things. 05:41:50 beach: Yeah. You can't even evaluate code in them, which makes the idea that forms are nonsensical without them kinda weird 05:42:04 Zhivago: Good enough for me. 05:42:15 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 05:42:41 Bike: Yes, I see what you mean. 05:43:29 Zhivago: Life itself may actually fit your description. 05:43:31 Zhivago: why can't we use existing ones? It is possible to build additional layer of abstraction, that will privide compatability with, say, Linux drivers. That would give us time to rewrite everything eventually. 05:43:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:43:49 hitecnologys: Exactly my plan! 05:43:57 wow, NIH 05:44:09 why not use a stock linux kernel, and, say, wayland as a compositor? 05:44:10 beach: that just sounds like the most sane solution. 05:44:24 hitecnologys: Yes, I agree (of course). 05:44:29 wayland CL compositor woulda been great 05:44:54 imagine when it crashes in the debugger recursively, shows nicely finitely-nested debugger invocations 05:44:57 as part of the desktop 05:45:01 sthalik: wayland? Are you kidding? 05:45:10 hitecnologys, not really.. 05:45:14 hitecnologys Sure -- like Android does. 05:45:34 [ot] guys check it out, my first android software 05:45:42 https://github.com/sthalik/battery-decision 05:46:45 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:56:46 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 05:57:11 hitecnologys: I know nothing about Wayland, but CLIM3/CLIMatis is based on compositing. In fact the current backend uses X11 only for input and for sending a single client-side image to the server. 05:58:04 hitecnologys: [another pointless waste of time, of course] 05:58:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.28.250] has joined #lisp 05:58:12 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.28.250] has quit [Changing host] 05:58:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 05:58:46 beach: well, I just don't like wayland. 05:59:19 hitecnologys: Wayland is off-topic of course, but can you tall me in one sentence why? 05:59:36 ... I'll read up on it later if I need to. 06:00:40 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.199.49] has joined #lisp 06:00:55 beach: I dislike it for no particular reason of course, that's me! 06:01:14 hitecnologys: OK, just checking. 06:05:17 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:05:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 lyanchih [~lyanchih@218-161-3-130.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:51 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE78cd8e65fa60-CM78cd8e65fa5d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 06:12:19 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:14:42 -!- soggybread [~booblik@ppp91-76-164-19.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:15:07 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 06:20:32 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:20:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 06:22:24 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:25:16 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:26:48 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-167.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:27:05 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-121.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:44 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:28:11 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:30:16 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 06:32:30 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:44:30 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:45:24 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 06:45:25 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-172-251-66-225.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: morlos] 06:47:00 -!- scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:48:20 Mathieu- [~lezard@42.61.250.9] has joined #lisp 06:49:10 morlos [~morlos@cpe-172-251-66-225.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:49:30 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-172-251-66-225.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:02 -!- Mathieu- [~lezard@42.61.250.9] has left #lisp 06:50:18 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:32 marek-varro [~user@96-32-51-151.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:58:44 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59:13 Mathieu [mlegrand@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fedf:caf4] has joined #lisp 06:59:18 sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 07:00:44 brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 07:03:27 -!- brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 07:05:59 vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:34 -!- gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl_] 07:19:02 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:19:18 n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has joined #lisp 07:20:42 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 07:25:40 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:31:19 vaporatorius: Sorry for sounding nosy yesterday. It was not meant that way. 07:31:26 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:32:32 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:49 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.199.49] has left #lisp 07:36:18 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 07:36:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:38:21 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 07:40:38 don't mind, beach. sunday breakfast time! 07:40:51 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 07:55:02 Kenjin [~kenjin@103.30.114.162] has joined #lisp 07:59:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:59:59 Bike [~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:13:33 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 08:16:48 -!- CrazyEddy [~botherati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:17:08 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 08:29:39 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:31:45 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 08:31:50 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 08:32:15 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@218-161-3-130.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:33:52 protist [~protist@120.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:35:57 -!- marek-varro [~user@96-32-51-151.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:36:30 lyanchih [~lyanchih@218-161-3-130.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:44:27 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:51:35 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 08:52:07 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-169-109-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 09:10:17 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@218-161-3-130.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 09:12:15 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:12:43 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:12:58 gienah [~mwright@gentoo/developer/gienah] has joined #lisp 09:16:13 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 09:18:10 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 09:19:36 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5000:7910:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 09:21:13 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:17 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 09:21:31 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:22:39 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:25:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:29:18 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-53-7.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:48 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 09:39:40 prxq [~mommer@x2f6a9f2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 09:39:43 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:49 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-53-7.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:40:23 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6a9f2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:40:37 prxq [~mommer@x2f6a9f2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:49 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-2.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:30 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 09:43:36 Shinmera [~linus@62-12-214-255.pool.cyberlink.ch] has joined #lisp 09:46:00 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #lisp 09:49:20 mathrick: I did a significant number of cleanups of and additions to the CLIM3/CLIMatis documentation so as to avoid confusing you too much once you start working on it. In particular, I added a "roadmap" appendix including a short-term "TODO" list that might be helpful. 09:50:08 teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.60] has joined #lisp 09:52:36 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-2.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:52:59 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 09:53:00 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:11 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 09:53:17 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.212.143] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 09:53:30 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-53-3.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:42 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 09:58:47 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:05:58 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 10:06:06 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:06:58 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:11:05 pillton [~user@124-148-37-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:17:48 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-53-3.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:26:16 -!- ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:26:33 -!- qlkzy_ [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 10:27:14 pjb: I read through your entire email message and I agree with everything you say. I don't see any showstopper problems in there. I am guessing type object won't be necessary since there is an underlying system class for every type. I may be wrong of course. 10:27:19 qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 10:28:05 -!- ineiros_ [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:28:18 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:28:36 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 10:28:51 pjb: I am also not sure whether you mean the notation env:::symbol::name to be taken at face value, or whether you use it just for the purpose of illustration. 10:29:03 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:29:35 -!- igorw [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:30:58 Guest94451 [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:30:59 -!- Guest94451 [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:30:59 Guest94451 [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 10:31:09 -!- Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 10:31:39 Subfusc [~Subfusc@tjenen.de] has joined #lisp 10:34:09 -!- qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 10:34:42 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 10:34:43 qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 10:35:16 -!- Guest94451 [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:35:24 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@75.144.20.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:36:03 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: ] 10:36:10 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:28 igorww [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:28 -!- igorww [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:36:28 igorww [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 10:36:30 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:36:44 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.84.28] has joined #lisp 10:42:00 -!- igorww [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:42:45 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:42:46 igorww [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:46 -!- igorww [~igorw@li559-253.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 10:42:46 igorww [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 10:42:58 pjb: FIND-CLASS already gives condition classes and built-in classes. I see no need for any separate mechanism. 10:43:08 [again, I may be wrong of course] 10:43:29 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:43:57 -!- qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 10:44:38 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:45:28 -!- Roin [~florian@unaffiliated/roin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:46:14 qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 10:46:49 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:53 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 10:47:42 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:48 oxum [~oxum@122.164.134.230] has joined #lisp 10:48:25 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC72F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:49:04 -!- igorww [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:49:30 -!- Loymoev [~loymoev@host-68-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:50:14 igorww [~igorw@unaffiliated/igorw] has joined #lisp 10:50:43 dtw` [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 10:53:59 -!- ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:54:06 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 10:54:42 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #lisp 10:55:23 ineiros [~itniemin@bayesianconspiracy.org] has joined #lisp 10:55:44 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 10:56:02 -!- qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:56:07 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:57:17 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:59:41 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 11:00:15 -!- Guest30076 [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:39 -!- stuckie [~stuckie@88.208.208.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:00:57 pjb: Right, methods are not in the environment. I am modifying the document to make it clear that I did not mean for that to be the case. 11:01:57 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:02:33 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 11:04:02 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-53-3.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:05:22 -!- Kenjin [~kenjin@103.30.114.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:05:38 Is it possible to see both sides of the discussion? 11:10:08 -!- conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 11:10:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:07 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:12:01 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Quit: mrSpec] 11:12:18 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-53-3.dab.02.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:12:22 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 11:12:22 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 11:12:22 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 11:12:24 stuckie [~stuckie@88.208.208.174] has joined #lisp 11:14:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:17:59 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:18 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:19:40 pillton: I don't feel comfortable posting an email from pjb here. But in a minute I will push a modified document to GitHub containing the results of it. 11:19:41 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-228-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 11:20:29 beach: No it is ok. It appears you and pjb are in conversation at the moment, but I can't see what pjb is saying. 11:21:20 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:49 pillton: From the logs: beach, memo from pjb: after further analysis, I reach the same 11:22:49 conclusion as you: environment should contain binding, and symbols 11:22:49 should be common to all environment, as other values. That means 11:22:49 that we need to extend an implementation (or write an implementation 11:22:52 over another), to provide those environment. 11:23:24 pillton: One more: beach, memo from pjb: however, for methods I don't think that's necessary to include them in the environment, since find-method works on class (and other for eql) objects; Therefore in two environments, we'll either have the same class (eg. (find-class 'integer)), or different classes even if under the same name (find-class 'car) -> # or # depending on the environment. 11:23:49 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:23:50 beach, pjb: symbols have cells and plists. If you store that in environments, you're nullifying the whole benefit of having them. Unless, I guess, you reimplement symbols to be basically constant strings a'la scheme, and make all their cells live in the environments 11:24:00 pillton: That's all I have. If you prefer that I not respond to pjb here, I will be quiet. 11:24:17 brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 11:24:31 mathrick: That's the idea, yes. 11:24:57 milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-66-7.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:12 mathrick: You should consider cells and plists as an implementation kludge to make access to them fast and to avoid implementer fatigue. 11:25:33 right 11:25:56 mathrick: But morally, they are part of the global environment. It is just that some parts of that environment happen to be spread out over other objects. 11:26:19 beach: btw, I still feel excluded out of your email talk :( 11:26:24 This is of course possible only if there is a single global environment. Once you start thinking of multiple environments, you have to think harder. 11:26:38 it's important for me to know what you two discuss, even if it's not always aligned with my own ideas 11:27:07 mathrick: My only option then is not to say anything because I don't feel comfortable posting his email. 11:28:01 Oops, lunch time. I'll be back soon. 11:28:08 beach: I think I am confused. 11:28:22 Are you responding to pjb without pjb being here now? 11:28:26 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:28:31 yes 11:28:43 Ok. Now I understand. Sorry for the noise. 11:28:49 beach: well, I'm asking both you and pjb. Obviously it needs the consent of both of you 11:30:22 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 11:30:54 -!- dtw` is now known as dtw 11:33:37 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-4-173.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:34:45 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:35:32 beach: btw, the basic problem with Wayland is that it's obnoxious. There's a lot of unwarranted hype by people who clearly don't understand it (or X), and people who do sure aren't sharing. If you go to #wayland to try to clear it up, you'll be yelled at for not knowing what Wayland is and assuming their own scarce materials and hype are representative of anything. Said clueless people are busily spreading FUD about X that has nothing to do with reality, 11:35:32 etc. 11:36:28 oh bother, no lisp discussions today either 11:36:29 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has left #lisp 11:36:34 many basic ideas with Wayland are generally sound, but there's a lot of areas that are served by X, completely ignored by Wayland, and expected to solve themselves magically 11:37:11 -!- pillton [~user@124-148-37-96.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #lisp 11:37:26 mathrick, that's not a problem with wayland, but moronix 11:37:37 Frankly, I suspect that Wayland is another Berlin. 11:37:47 sthalik: no, it's a problem with wayland. Moronix just compounds the problem 11:38:16 Zhivago: wasn't Berlin the one based on CORBA? 11:38:20 or was that Fiasco? 11:38:21 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:41 I suspect that the successor to X11 will end up being a web browser. 11:39:17 wayland actually has a lot of steam, adoption and actual work that's been done already 11:39:27 -!- protist [~protist@120.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:39:27 So did berlin. 11:39:34 the problem is that it's full of not explaining things and smugly assuming it's superior just because 11:40:04 In the end, it all comes down to economics -- what is it going to make cheaper? 11:40:31 Zhivago: distros 11:40:44 Does anyone care about that cost? 11:40:45 it solves a lot of problems that are actual problems now, much more so than when berlin was around 11:40:47 yes 11:41:09 to the point that ubuntu considered it economically viable to write their own wayland-like thing 11:41:33 Well, if they can convince people to care, more power to them. 11:42:03 ah, right, Berlin was Fresco 11:42:18 anyway, Berlin/Fresco was stupid 11:42:22 it used CORBA 11:42:27 But given that 90% of people are spending 90% of their time using a web browser, I don't think that they give a damn about the underlying infrastructure. 11:42:45 that browser still needs to push pixels somehow 11:42:46 So, perhaps distos are the only people who will care about it and might have a chance of changing things. 11:42:51 wayland is the pixel pusher 11:43:06 Sure, as is X, and everything else. 11:43:46 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-66-7.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:44:06 milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:52 Zhivago: that's actually the difficult bit nobody bothers explaining (and they will yell at you for not knowing): Wayland consists primarily of *not* being X and not doing things X does 11:45:09 at its core, Wayland is a protocol to hand off hardware compositing buffers 11:45:27 possibly nested, in a way that allows the nested layers to be removed 11:46:33 so you can have a system compositor that's active at boot, then session compositor when user logs in, and they both just step out of the way and in the end, the desktop is talking directly to GPU buffers 11:47:15 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 11:47:16 session compositor running on top of system compositor that is 11:47:37 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48:36 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:50:16 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has joined #lisp 11:55:59 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220.134.193.4] has joined #lisp 11:58:03 So, why should I care about it? 11:59:49 I'm curious mostly about that bit -- would it make any difference to me? :) 12:00:19 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 12:01:03 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:01:06 milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 CrazyEddy [~Mimosa@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 12:03:14 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:08:03 Zhivago: it's where Linux systems are moving it seems. You're obviously not required to use it, but people who work at the level of toolkit (like beach does) have independently found out that a minimal pixel buffer compositor is ultimately a better substrate than something that tries to impose a lot of meaning like X, due to technological change 12:08:48 and similarly people who try to supply the toolkit writers with an OS to run on have also found out that it allows them to produce something that feels much more coherent 12:09:00 It will be interesting to see if it succeeds. 12:09:07 it will 12:09:14 I've heard that before :) 12:09:22 I'm mostly pissed off at the amount of FUD and lack of explanations that surround it 12:10:21 The moral of the VHS vs Beta story is that VHS was better for users. 12:10:23 and the assumption that the only reason you don't know everything about Wayland intuitively is because you're an evil X acolyte working to subvert the brave new world order 12:11:04 Zhivago: Wayland would result in things like no blank screen going between boot screen, login screen and user session, instead having the transition animated 12:11:15 so that's a perceptible benefit 12:11:20 Yeah, I can see how that's a compelling case. :) 12:11:23 something OSX can do today, X doesn't 12:12:44 And also something that I suspect no-one cares about. 12:13:41 mathrick: Thanks for the update on Wayland and #wayland. 12:13:53 quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:14:08 Zhivago: actually, they do. Users don't know about X, all they see is a scary "did my computer just crash?" blank screen twice 12:14:11 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has joined #lisp 12:14:32 besides, for ubuntu it allows them to run the same thing on phones and desktops 12:14:44 another important aspect of what they're trying to do 12:14:54 Which they'll get used to in about 5 minutes. 12:15:00 shamaz [~user@ip-95-220-15-214.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:15:09 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: +++ATH0] 12:15:16 never underestimate the importance of spit shine 12:15:22 The reason that VHS won is that it was long enough to record whole movies on one tape. 12:15:26 I know that 12:15:37 and a lot of macs are bought because they're more shiny 12:15:43 mathrick: I can summarize: Initially, pjb was convinced that there would be per-user symbols with the same name, whereas I was in favor of same symbols and different environments. Recently, pjb seems to think that different environments would work, and he pointed out some things to think about in that respect. 12:16:39 beach: don't those mean basically the same thing? In environments, "symbols" are nothing but name, so it doesn't really matter whether they're "truly" shared 12:17:04 Zhivago, Beta was just late to the game with long-record-time tapes. 12:17:27 jack_rabbit: beta always had shorter recording lengths for the same amount of tape 12:17:51 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:51 so it took them longer to develop something as long as previous VHS iterations, by which time even longer VHS tapes were around 12:18:09 it was inherent in the tech 12:18:19 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 12:18:40 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 12:20:08 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:20:14 mathrick: They mean different things if users are allowed to pass symbols to each other. 12:20:29 hmm, right 12:20:39 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20:48 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 12:21:23 I guess this means that you're not using processes. 12:21:52 mathrick, that's true. but no user cares about the tape length. They care about what they can do with a cartridge. Beta caught up to VHS, just too late. 12:22:35 Zhivago: indeed that's one of the basic design decisions beach is after 12:23:12 schaueho [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-062-016.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:59 jack_rabbit: depends on how you define "caught up to". At any point in time, VHS offered more recording length than Beta, so Beta never really "caught up". It matched *previous* iterations of VHS, but not then-current ones 12:24:27 Zhivago: Correct. What mathrick said. 12:24:38 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:25:10 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:26:47 That used to make sense to me, but I think these days that it is a terrible mistake. 12:26:53 Anyhow, good luck with it. 12:27:19 Zhivago: Yes, I know. And thanks. Even if nothing results from it, at least I will know why. 12:27:21 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:28:31 mathrick, that's true. 12:31:26 mathrick: Did you see my thing about updating the CLIM3/CLIMatis documentation? 12:33:29 loke` [~user@116.50.79.76] has joined #lisp 12:34:15 quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 12:34:31 beach: yes, that sounds very good 12:34:38 mathrick: To be frank, I feel a bit apprehensive of your work on CLIMatis and Climacs. On the one hand I am thrilled to get help. On the other hand, I am afraid you will be disappointed about the transitional state of it. 12:34:57 beach: why'd I be? It's what I expect it to be 12:35:19 mathrick: I know, you told me. Still, not worried, just "apprehensive". 12:35:27 Just saying... 12:36:21 *beach* should just get over it and continue working. 12:37:04 yes :) 12:38:02 *sigh* So much work, so little time. 12:39:41 indeed 12:40:28 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:40:50 Indecipherable [~Apocalyps@41.13.152.146] has joined #lisp 12:41:18 -!- igorww is now known as igorw 12:44:02 Roin [1006@unaffiliated/roin] has joined #lisp 12:45:10 -!- Indecipherable [~Apocalyps@41.13.152.146] has quit [Quit: .] 12:47:29 danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:52:04 -!- shamaz [~user@ip-95-220-15-214.bb.netbynet.ru] has left #lisp 12:52:56 michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.49.124] has joined #lisp 12:55:03 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.49.124] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:56:15 ggole [~ggole@124-169-109-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:58:56 drmeister 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has joined #lisp 14:43:27 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.212.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:43:51 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.212.143] has joined #lisp 14:44:33 -!- copyninja [~kakashi@146.185.137.224] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:47:31 Is # just convention for printing unprintable stuff? 14:47:45 clhs #< 14:47:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dht.htm 14:47:45 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:18 and it's unreadable, not unprintable 14:48:38 :) 14:48:46 I see. So, #< is used to print stuff that cannot be read back? 14:49:04 yes 14:49:16 OK, thanks. 14:50:18 dim: poke? 14:50:19 it's the print method of objects which determines how that object gets printed.... 14:50:49 actually, it's PRINT-OBJECT 14:50:52 Implementations may have an ugly way of printing some structures readably, try (write (make-hash-tables) :readably t). 14:50:58 table* 14:51:02 hitecnologys: see also PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT 14:51:06 clhs PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT 14:51:06 print-unreadable-object: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 14:51:48 Oh, wow. 14:52:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:52:44 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:52:56 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 14:55:54 Another stupid question: I'm used to defining separate package for ASDF system because I once saw advice to do so somewhere. Is there any real particular reason for this? 14:57:09 No. 14:57:22 if you are not defining anything besides defsystem, then you don't need it 14:57:38 And if I do? 14:57:55 s/do/am/ 14:58:00 then you need a package to avoid clashes 14:58:09 I see. 14:59:07 What if I have two systems in one package then? Should I define package in this case? 14:59:41 InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has joined #lisp 14:59:46 two systems where? 14:59:49 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:58 In the same file. 15:00:05 Ah, carp. 15:00:24 s/package/file/ 15:00:30 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:44 two defsystem in one file is usually not the greatest idea 15:00:57 Why not? 15:01:17 find-system will have a bad time finding one of them 15:01:52 But what if one system is completely meaningless without another? 15:02:06 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:02:08 then you don't need two systems 15:02:18 I see. 15:03:19 So, I should put system for tests in separate file? 15:04:02 That's what I do. 15:05:06 test systems are a bit different, if you do asdf:test-system, it will work if it is in the same file, since you will specify the main name and find-system will find load .asd, making the test system available for find-system 15:05:40 asdf could have a better provision for testing 15:06:00 along with a hundred other things where asdf could be better 15:06:11 stassats: how do ASDF distinguish test system and main system? 15:06:22 there's a in-order method 15:06:23 thankfully ASDF is maintained 15:06:57 stassats: in-order-to maybe? 15:06:58 most of the recent problems with asdf was caused by it being maintained 15:07:28 Unfortunately, though, the documentation is not that good. 15:08:14 there are also slashed names, main/sub in main.asd, (find-system 'main/sub) should find it 15:08:15 beach: well, it's certainly better than it used to be. 15:08:20 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:54 I can't figure out form reading the documentation how to use the new method of configuring ASDF to find my systems. 15:09:13 OK, another quick question: when should I use dots (foo.bar) for naming things and when should I use slash (foo/bar)? 15:09:15 beach: i use the old method 15:09:21 Yeah, me too. 15:09:40 Aha, the old one is better, actually. 15:09:51 i want my rc files be self-contained, not sprawl into ~/.config 15:10:27 hitecnologys: i would never use / 15:10:31 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:10:37 stassats: why? 15:10:38 now that its meaning has changed 15:11:02 because i don't understand the rules it uses, and how will it change in the future 15:11:28 What are these rules and what does / mean? 15:11:38 i don't know! 15:11:46 it means something, that's for sure 15:12:43 And what what does . mean? 15:12:58 probably nothing 15:13:08 What should I use then? 15:13:47 beach: I don't have any problem communicating my email, it is rather well known ;-) Notice that I recently installed mailman on my server at http://lists.ogamita.com/listinfo ; I could create a lispos list there, or on http://common-lisp.net/listinfo.html 15:13:48 pjb, memo from beach: I hear you about the methods. I'll look into where I wrote that. 15:13:48 pjb, memo from beach: It is great that we agree on such an important point as first-class environments. That could mean a lot more work to be shared in the future. Also, there is a reason I am working on a new implementation, which does have first-class environments. 15:14:27 protip: if you know that you have memos are read them, you can 15:14:30 minion: forget my memos 15:14:30 You didn't have any memos! 15:15:08 Thanks. I didn't think of it indeed. 15:15:22 pjb: I hesitate. 15:15:25 What do you think? 15:15:31 fchurca [~fchurca@181.29.122.169] has joined #lisp 15:15:36 hitecnologys: / should allow for several systems in a single file 15:15:43 I fear endless debates. 15:15:50 beach: as list manager we can moderate the subscriptions. 15:16:14 pjb: Sure, we can try it. 15:16:23 Hello, the link someone threw me yesterday was super in my trying to better understanding macros, I initially thought they were pretty simple but they can be really mind blowing. However I couldn't write the one I wanted, I finally got this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/140552 but now I don't know how to make a macro capable of expanding this code as this is a macro which writes another macro 15:16:43 pjb: But perhaps we should make clear that it is mainly a dialogue between you and me, and that people can listen if they want. 15:16:45 you can't really have a system with a slash in its name in its own file 15:17:01 although i don't know if it's in another directory 15:17:07 if it will work, that is 15:17:20 I see. 15:17:23 beach: ok. 15:17:25 pjb: I don't mean to say that others would not be allowed to contribute, but I also don't want it to be a general forum for anybody's ideas, because then it would be useless. 15:17:50 pjb: This is why I hesitate. But, sure, we can try it. 15:18:05 pjb: Nothing can happen that can't be fixed if it does. 15:19:00 pjb: I am not sure if what I am saying makes sense. :( 15:19:12 InfusoElAmbulant: i don't see a question in that paste 15:19:45 i mean, there is a sentence with a question mark, but it doesn't constitute an answerable query 15:19:47 stassats: how do I zip it now inside a macro?, maybe I posted bad link? 15:20:20 Well, mail lists have a higher cost of access than newsgroups :-) And there are several level of moderation possible, so it will can be well controled. On the other hand, as soon as we're more than two, it's really practical, and keeps a history. 15:20:22 it was a long-winded way of saying "what are you really trying to do?" 15:20:32 ok I mean, how I can call that worker macro in a macro which can place inside a function, and call it 15:20:43 well, I'm trying to make a CFFI wrap 15:20:55 pjb: OK, sure. Let's try it. And put mathrick on it at least. 15:20:56 I want to pass an array of foreign strings to a function 15:21:14 with with- like style 15:21:14 pjb: Agreeing on the environments is great progress in my opinion. 15:21:51 pjb: ... because it means that we can combine more efforts right away. 15:22:08 Indeed. I realized that my idea would involve in a lot of complexities because of CL, and would lead to rewrite an implementation anyways. 15:22:37 pjb: and put me, if possible. I want to see updates on this LispOS thing. 15:22:44 InfusoElAmbulant: you don't really need a macro-writing macro, do you? 15:23:20 stassats: don't know, I'm new, I thought i needed it because of &body body lazy evaluation 15:23:27 pjb: I should probably put your code snippets in the documentation if you agree. 15:23:35 Sure. 15:23:36 -!- sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:23:53 if I place a &body body in a function it will try to be evaluated first 15:24:16 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220.134.193.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:36 For e:::p:s or e:::p::s I guess such a reader extension would practical to write some code when allowed to access the environments. 15:24:48 macros are not really involved with evaluation, all they do is transform code 15:24:58 pjb: Yes, indeed. 15:24:59 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:36 pjb: I think when I put it in, I'll stick in a footnote saying that this notation is for illustration only, at least for now. 15:25:38 Also since some symbol may pass from one environment to another without being accessible, it may be a printable representation. 15:25:42 it's better not to think of macros as functions with lazy evaluation rules, because it will only confuse you 15:25:50 Indeed. It's provisional. 15:26:11 I just wanted to abbreviate code, because I already got to repeat that pattern in 4 or 5 functions 15:26:58 InfusoElAmbulant: consider using inline functions for abbreviating code. 15:27:09 InfusoElAmbulant: I haven't looked at your example, but most such abbreviation can be obtained by using ordinary functions. 15:27:12 but if i directly make a macro (not macro writing macro) the compiler begs because i'm passing not a literal list instead I pass a binding to a list 15:27:35 that's right, and you can't do anything about that 15:28:05 macros just do not work at run-time 15:28:40 what i want now is use that macro wrinting macro in something like (demacro with-... (v s &body body) (with-...-worker v s (progn body)) but it begs again 15:28:50 so, instead, make a function which will create an foreign array from a list of strings 15:28:51 Well, there's this EVAL-WHEN thing but it's just a diry hack. 15:29:27 yeah the problem is that i like lexical scoping style, i dont like to do setfs and frees 15:29:33 and then make a with-x macro, which will do (let ((v (make-fancy-string-array ...))) (unwind-protect (progn ,@body) (cffi:free v))) 15:29:39 or functional style, i dont know how to call it 15:30:12 mm that surely would work 15:30:20 InfusoElAmbulant: do what stassats says, it's the most sane way of doing what you want. 15:30:43 so this other way is impossible? I would like to solve that problem 15:31:05 The other way is possible but not recommended. 15:31:19 I guess i need to read more about the internal working of macros and reader 15:32:00 Macro is just a function that is called after reading to return code. 15:32:33 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 15:32:35 And that's all it does: writes code. 15:32:55 You don't really need to know how reader works to understand macros. 15:33:12 It's really challenging 15:33:28 well, but you can write macros that write macros that writes macros....... 15:33:39 InfusoElAmbulant: it's really simple, when (macro x y z) encountered, it does (funcall (macro-function 'macro) '(macro x y z) env), and substitutes (macro x y z) with the returned result 15:33:54 and then it's repeated 15:34:07 InfusoElAmbulant: of course you can because macros will be evaluated until there are no macro calls left. 15:34:18 until the form is not a macro-form 15:34:26 this is really mind blowing for me 15:34:54 Think of it as of #define that executes code. 15:34:58 when i met lisp other langs look like inferior now 15:35:02 your problem can't be solved with macro-writing macros, macro writing macros is when you expand into defmacro or macrolet 15:35:02 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-1-8.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:35:31 in other words, when you're lazy writing macros, you use macros to write macros for you 15:35:34 maybe i could try macrolet 15:36:05 oh, but what i try by writing a mcro wrinting macro is simply to eval one of the params 15:36:14 no, pulling run-time values through a macro is not a solvable problem, because that's not what macros do 15:36:37 it's one of those things you need to understand to really get macros 15:37:37 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:26 for run-time values you would be using functions 15:38:34 it's very confunsing, i was thinking each macro call evaluated some args, i mean in my code the second quasiquote lets writing literal value of one of the macro computed values, also i did some simple tests of this 15:39:13 macros are not really called, they are expanded, and they do not evaluate anything 15:40:18 they take code A and produce code A', which may or may not put the forms in the A into positions which would cause them to be evaluated 15:41:05 and special forms are the things may or may not evaluate things, not macros or functions 15:41:22 that is, IF, LET, etc. 15:41:24 pjb: That was quick! :) 15:41:43 arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has joined #lisp 15:41:47 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 15:42:19 milosn [~milosn@dab-hlw1-h-66-3.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:20 since the list manager was already installed, yes creating a new list is not hard. 15:44:17 /msg stassats you may subscribe on http://lists.ogamita.com/listinfo/lispos 15:44:17 15:44:42 that's an interesting way to send private messages 15:44:55 lol 15:45:11 Did I do something wrong? 15:45:13 gabnet [~user@ACaen-652-1-156-37.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:45:18 Did erc play a trick on me? 15:45:45 it went to the channel, unless that's what you wanted 15:46:09 that wasn't intended :-/ I guess that's the newline at the end that prevented erc to do the right thing. 15:46:33 and i'm glad to put all the people discussing lispos away from #lisp, because i'm sick of it 15:46:38 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:52 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:46:52 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 15:47:04 You should not, there are some interesting implications just on the CL language level. 15:47:16 zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has joined #lisp 15:48:06 stassats: thank you guys, I think I got confused by the fact my macro had to use another macro, so i had to evaluate some params to get evaluated in that macro and not getting a plain variable since you can't do easy (let ((v '((w 1)))) (let v w)) 15:48:41 assuming let were a macro which it isn't i think 15:48:49 it's a special operator 15:49:18 that's just an example, what i used in my real code was a real macro 15:49:19 but the idea is the same, the compiler can't know what to compile that form into, since the value of W is not known at compile-time 15:49:27 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:49 or rather, the value of V 15:51:35 maybe I'm wrong but I think the evaluation-compilation times in lisp is something more overlapped or with less or different meaning than other languages 15:52:17 they are distinct, but they the fact that macros use the same language to performs their actions might be confusing 15:52:29 when you eval a macro that macro has to be expanded then maybe compiled and finally evaluated 15:53:10 macro-expansion is a phase of compilation 15:53:50 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:54:15 but you can evaluate a macro in the reader, so I could even evaluate a macro ni any other place 15:54:24 in the repl* sorry 15:54:51 you can use EVAL, but it's a wrong way to write programs 15:56:01 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:40 some poorly designed APIs force you to eval macros, but in general, if you want to eval a macro, it's a sign that you need to use a function, not a macro 15:58:22 mmm I really got to think more about it 15:58:25 pjb: Either I am doing something wrong, or there is some other problem: "relay access denied" when I try sending something. 15:58:54 Let me see. 15:58:59 It's sadly that lisp is so underused now 15:59:10 i'm not sad, i'm using it! 15:59:33 haha but you can't find a lot of new things implemented in it 15:59:36 i'm trying to use it... 15:59:46 and sometimes using somthing that uses it 16:00:01 Actually, it's good that not many people use it. 16:00:10 Take a look at PHP to see what can happen. 16:00:45 quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 16:00:47 if you design a language using your left heel, anything can happen 16:00:57 well, I think if more people use it, it could evolve more 16:00:57 Yeah, sure. 16:01:13 Evolve how? 16:01:29 Evolve doesn't necessary mean become better. 16:01:29 hey what's wrong with PHP? I code with it for a living and- ok, yes, I'd take lisp over it any time XD 16:01:35 it already does evolve...sevenfold.... 16:01:36 hitecnologys: better infrastructure, i presume, not the language itself 16:01:39 even academics use python and other new langs 16:01:45 or more mayhaps 16:02:00 stassats: probably. 16:02:44 there was no quicklisp several years ago 16:03:23 I don't see many good reasons to use python for scientific computing, and I see a lot of this 16:03:52 reasons are rarely come into play for something like this 16:03:53 InfusoElAmbulant: Python is quite good for this. Not as good as Haskell, though. 16:04:10 even in my university they are teching python and numpy and so 16:04:17 InfusoElAmbulant: If I were you I would care less about other people's decisions based on ignorance and go on with whatever project I was working on. 16:04:18 inertia, familiarity, or just some overzealous people forcing their way 16:04:29 does anyone know about a good finite state machine / dfa lib for cl? I cobbled one together but I'd like something more stable 16:05:17 fchurca: state machine is quite easy to write, why bother studying library? 16:05:25 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:04 what i miss in lisp is that evolving, like static typing, I've seen just one project of this, that shen 16:06:10 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.84.28] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 16:06:18 also had now another name 16:06:38 static typing is just a fad 16:06:39 InfusoElAmbulant: there is static typing. 16:06:45 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:03 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:07:06 LiamH [~none@pool-173-73-130-210.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:22 well, types make me reason a lot better about the program, like you do in haskell 16:07:33 i mean static 16:07:37 hitecnologys: indeed; I have actually written one. and shuffle, and such, which I replaced with alexandria. I'd rather not reinvent the wheel, or do it just for practice, using established solutions in "real" code 16:07:41 InfusoElAmbulant: There is no point in wanting Lisp to be substantially different from what it is. It is then better just to use Haskell. 16:08:06 you are right in that 16:08:16 then what i wanted is more lisp influence 16:08:24 "static" is what lisp is trying to avoid 16:08:31 fchurca: I see. I don't know any such libraries. 16:08:34 fchurca: When I want a state machine, I usually just use TAGBODY and use the tags to name the states. 16:08:51 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:25 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:53 Type theory is older than lambda calculus: it ain't going anywhere 16:10:30 i've read a tad on com.informatigo.common-lisp.cesarum.dfa , has anyone used it? 16:10:37 pjb did 16:11:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:12:27 pjb: Any idea about the reason for the email failure? 16:13:57 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:15:36 DESCRIBE prints "Known attributes" sometimes. What are these attributes? How do I get/set them? 16:15:37 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:15:40 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:51 with defknown 16:15:58 and you shouldn't 16:16:12 Why? 16:16:25 because you have to ask 16:16:47 the same reason why you don't tear your belly open to pour breakfast inside of it 16:16:59 I see. 16:17:04 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:17:08 or at least i don't 16:17:53 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:28 hitecnologys: Sounds implementation-specific to me. 16:18:28 -!- rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:19:03 sure, sometimes oesophagostomy is the way to go, but you really need to know what you want, why you want it, and how to do it 16:19:21 rvchangue [~rvchangue@unaffiliated/rvchangue] has joined #lisp 16:19:51 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@67.189.17.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:22:24 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5000:7910:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has joined #lisp 16:22:31 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:08 So, this is just a way to give compiler some additional information? 16:23:33 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:24:35 it's an sbcl interface for telling the compiler how a function can be optimized 16:24:40 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 16:25:19 OK, got it, thanks. 16:27:16 -!- gabnet [~user@ACaen-652-1-156-37.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:18 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has joined #lisp 16:27:18 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.188.191] has quit [Changing host] 16:27:19 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 16:30:15 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:30:52 beach: the problem with the mail list is corrected apparent. It was missing the mail list addresses in the postfix virtual table. 16:31:16 pjb: Do I need to send the message again? 16:33:07 Yes. 16:33:21 The first time it has been rejected by postfix. 16:33:29 OK, will do. 16:35:11 Done! 16:35:23 success! :-) 16:35:30 Excellent! 16:35:40 mail was so much easier before spam :-/ 16:35:45 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 16:35:50 Yeah. 16:37:27 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:40 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:37:40 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 16:37:56 OK, time to go prepare dinner. 16:39:01 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 16:42:47 Good night, people. 16:42:59 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.212.143] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:44:44 no good night for minion, poor minion 16:48:34 would it care? 16:48:45 minion: do you care? 16:48:46 do you care: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 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18:16:06 toto [5a05ee80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.5.238.128] has joined #lisp 18:16:30 -!- toto is now known as Guest44266 18:16:44 constant time, probably 18:18:31 hello it's the first time when i use this chat it's works ? 18:18:57 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:56 Guest44266: pick a real nickname please, yes I can read you 18:20:16 Bike: I want to count memory usage in a list of strings 18:20:28 mmm, actually maybe I can have a look in postmodern's buffer 18:20:29 if any 18:20:32 welcome then! 18:20:35 a stream at least I guess 18:20:47 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.214] has joined #lisp 18:21:33 dim: how to change the nickname (it's the server which choose Guest44266) 18:21:46 arrays are usually represented with a block of memory and a length tag, so 18:22:14 of course the length of a string isn't going to be the number of bytes it uses for a variety of reasons 18:23:01 Guest44266: /nick 18:23:34 Bike: yeah, I was going to multiply by 3 or something (unicode, sbcl) 18:23:43 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:24:15 is there a way to introspect memory usage? 18:24:19 -!- Guest44266 is now known as ok 18:24:21 sbcl also null-terminates strings 18:24:38 I guess I could handle memory failure, but it's going to be hard to do something smart about that 18:24:41 thanks hazl 18:24:47 -!- ok is now known as Guest46557 18:25:10 Guest46557: be warned that you'll need to find a nickname that isn't already registered :) 18:25:14 the other option is of course to let the user specify a smaller batch size in that case, and hope that a single row will fit 18:25:16 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 18:25:22 dim: there's sb-vm:memory-usage, apparently 18:26:10 well I want to know about a specific (set of) object(s) 18:26:50 hazl: my nickname was re-exchange by the server but was not already registered 18:28:00 Guest46557, some nicks are reserved so the server changes your nick to Guestxxxxx. You can use #freenode channel to ask questions about this particular irc network. 18:28:35 -!- Guest46557 is now known as nicknotused 18:28:44 dtw: ok thanks 18:30:24 Well someone can explain me what is of use "(declare (ignore x))" please 18:31:08 it's telling the compiler that you intend not to have any use for the local bindind x 18:31:09 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:31:38 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:31:51 dim: i think sb-vm::reconstitute-object might show the sizes but doing it yourself seems pretty hacky 18:33:21 nicknotused, it tells that you won't use variable "x". Compiler may use the information. 18:33:31 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:33:38 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-177-121.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:33:48 dtw: thanks a lot 18:34:15 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:40 because i see that instruction in the lambda fonction 18:35:23 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-153-107.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:37:57 and what hapen if i forget this instruction ? 18:38:07 paul0 [~paul0@177.132.169.73] has joined #lisp 18:38:15 the compiler might warn you if you don't use the variable. 18:38:52 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:40:03 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:40:22 -!- InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:41:44 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 example: (lambda (x) t) ; returns t and does nothing with x 18:42:52 that might make the compiler emit a warning, as you usually intend to use the parameters 18:43:39 It's not an instruction, it's a declaration. 18:43:56 There's also (declare (ignorable x)) which prevents warnings whether you use it or not. 18:44:07 but maybe you need a function to have a certain signature because of how you call it, but the particular one you're using doesn't use those parameters 18:45:01 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:45:04 pjb: So if there is no implementation with first-class environments, I might need to get cracking pretty seriously on SICL, huh? 18:45:22 ok so it's just to avoid the warning ? 18:46:11 yes, it tells the compiler you are deliberately not using that variable instead of maybe forgetting to use it 18:46:36 ok thanks 18:46:52 beach: there is cltl2 stuff, for some value of 'first class' 18:47:31 Bike: Oh, I think that's different. We are talking about multiple first-class GLOBAL environments. 18:47:36 ah. 18:47:39 yeah, different. 18:47:57 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:54 Bike: But one possibility would be to implement a simple CL interpreter in CL. If one can escape to the host as much as possible, it might not be too bad. 18:49:40 Someone can tell me what is the shortcut to call back the last instruction on emacs with SBCL please ? 18:51:07 M-p usually. 18:52:07 beach: it works thanks 18:52:14 Anytime! 18:52:36 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 18:53:20 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:53:26 you could try vim too, with slimv. it's pretty neat 18:53:35 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:54:03 So what operations can you do on a global environment? 18:54:19 Bike: warming 18:54:57 Bike: Nothing out of the ordinary. fdefinition, (setf fdefinition), find-class, etc. 18:55:03 ah. 18:55:18 actually, or late founding father McCarthy had quite interesting thoughts on global warming 18:55:20 Bike: symbol-value, macro-function, you name it. 18:55:26 *our 18:56:40 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-85-3.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:57:21 -!- seangrove [~user@rrcs-173-196-16-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:57:22 -!- kahu [~kahu@c213-89-204-206.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Quit reason] 18:58:41 -!- klltkr[JAX] [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 18:58:54 what's the diference between cons and append for the list ? The twice create a new list, not ? 18:59:36 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 19:00:50 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:01:43 append and cons perform different operations 19:05:45 both concatenate some lists into one, no ? 19:05:56 nope 19:06:11 this will come handy: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 19:06:18 clhs cons 19:06:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm 19:06:19 clhs append 19:06:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm 19:06:38 knob [~knob@66-50-171-135.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:29 "CONS takes two arguments and returns a new cons cell containing the two values ... APPEND takes any number of list arguments and returns a new list containing the elements of all its arguments" 19:07:49 (caps in the original) 19:10:59 jal_ [~jal@cm-84.209.90.205.getinternet.no] has joined #lisp 19:13:26 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:13:30 thanks fchurca it'll become my bedside book ^^ but i'm not a good english speaker and i don't understand the expression "a new cons cell" 19:13:53 there was no cons cell, and now there is one 19:14:14 fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:32 good joke stassats 19:15:29 that's what "a new cons cell" means. 19:15:51 and it's like no other cons cell already present 19:16:45 nicknotused: a cons cell is like a 2-tuple in some other languages, it's a value that can hold two other values 19:18:01 ok fchurca is more clearly than the answer of stassats so a cons cell is an object ? 19:18:02 in fact, that book explains it better than i can 19:18:57 in "object" terms, it is an instance of the class cons 19:18:59 nicknotused, it's a datum 19:19:11 -!- klltkr is now known as klltkr[JAX] 19:19:14 fchurca, classes and types are kidn of... disjoint 19:19:17 a cons cell is where they hold con-artists in prison 19:19:52 sthalik: (class-of (cons 1 2)) ; gives me # 19:20:32 nicknotused: on a more serious note, you should just read that book 19:20:44 no point in recreating its content here 19:20:51 indeed 19:21:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:21:16 fchurca, good luck inheriting it, though 19:21:21 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:21:25 if you need english language practice, you can use that book as practice :P 19:21:27 it's only to specialize; it's not a CLOS object 19:21:35 it's an object alright 19:22:27 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:20 i don't see what prompted sthalik to state the contrary 19:23:38 stassats, memory representation 19:23:48 is it possible to "share" a stream in between threads? 19:24:08 like having a thread open it and another write to it directly? 19:24:23 sthalik: and? 19:24:30 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:24:45 dim, gray stream with synchronization 19:24:46 mmm, forget about that. 19:24:47 i'm a tad fuzzy on the details, but doesn't clos take care of all objects from t downwards instead of only descendants of standard-object? 19:24:56 stassats, as soon as one starts coding, they get bogged down in impl details anyway 19:25:03 and that particular bit is common among all (?) impls 19:25:16 CLOS is duct-taped, not an integral part of the language 19:25:18 sthalik: I don't think it would allow me to implement the error recovery strategy I'm currently using anyways, was thinking out loud 19:25:18 i don't understand what you're trying to tell, all values CL are objects 19:25:20 thanks anyway 19:25:40 stassats, they're data, they're not CLOS objects 19:25:52 but you're more experienced than me, hehe 19:25:56 they have a class 19:26:05 and fchurca didn't even mention CLOS 19:26:10 so you're probably right, by a heuristic 19:26:14 well, fsvo 19:26:41 sthalik: i thought that was the case in the pre-ansi days, back when cltl was a draft 19:26:56 and the metaclass of these classes is built-in-class, which you can't inherit 19:26:56 ok but if i wan't create the list (A B C D) for example it's better to do "(append '(a b) '(c d))" or "(cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c (cons 'd nil)))))" I know it's not very useful 19:27:09 or do much, but otherwise, it's an object like any other CLOS object 19:27:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:27:43 nicknotused: it depends on how you want to build it 19:28:27 nicknotused: if you're building a property-list, you may want to collect it in pairs; if you're building just a list, you may want to collect the individual atoms 19:28:47 ^pairs as in 2-element lists to be spliced 19:28:53 I have a question regarding mop: I have a new meta-class with a slot. I want to post process the slot-value of an instance of that meta-class, after the instance was created via 'defclass' (http://paste.lisp.org/display/140554). How would I do that? (I tried to specialize 'initialize-instance :after' for ((class a-clas)), but it seems to never be called). 19:29:14 fiveop, slot-allocation :virtual? 19:29:19 fiveop: both initialize-instance and reinitialize-instance 19:29:45 stassats: the latter might be the problem :) 19:29:53 sthalik: is there even such a thing? 19:29:55 I forgot that 19:31:00 stassats, there was some way in mop to rewrite #'slot-value through a wrapper fun 19:31:19 dang, probably should double-check instead of decf s/n-ratio 19:31:30 that's not what fiveop asked 19:31:33 yeah 19:31:47 but just fiy, it's slot-value/bound-using-class 19:32:02 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:1c54:b2dd:92a4:7685] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:32:11 thanks 19:32:19 boundP 19:32:30 Is there a less dense read on MOP than http://www.alu.org/mop/ 19:32:33 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 19:32:37 something that has ... examples? :) 19:32:54 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:3116:c5a5:4db9:8aef] has joined #lisp 19:33:41 just be a man! 19:35:09 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:35:18 InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has joined #lisp 19:36:16 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:37:30 yeah, examples? you're not fucking hardcore enough 19:37:37 just ask any man page author 19:37:43 they are called MAN pages for a reason! 19:38:31 jal_: poor hardcore! 19:38:43 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 19:38:53 kahu [~kahu@c213-89-204-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:39:40 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 19:39:51 -!- schaueho_ [~schaueho@dslb-088-066-036-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:39:52 writing a comprehensive explanatory MOP documentation could be a good idea, but there's probably already something like that 19:41:14 isn't The Art of the Metaobject Protocol a de-facto definition of it? 19:41:27 it costs money and has a lot of pages 19:41:29 haven't read it yet tho 19:41:36 i got pretty bored on page two 19:41:50 here's all the documentation you need: put it on the floor and scrub 19:42:52 well, amop wasn't really meant to be a definition, just preliminary, so it's not like what you might think 19:43:17 stassats: considering you're the one who told fiveop not to complain on the one on alu.org, i'd guess amop is a tad dense then? 19:43:31 i haven't read it 19:43:51 -!- InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:43:59 just those two chapters, but i took a look at some examples first 19:44:11 rucksack, i think 19:44:30 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:02 InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has joined #lisp 19:48:01 -!- jal_ [~jal@cm-84.209.90.205.getinternet.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:48:04 for reference for your persistence lib? 19:48:16 yeah 19:49:10 -!- dtw [dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has left #lisp 19:51:27 I want all instances of a custom meta-class to behave as if they had a certain other class in the first position of their direct superclasses. Currently, I do this by specializing compute-class-precedence-list for my meta-class by returning a value derived from the returned value of call-next-method. 19:51:36 is there a simpler way? 19:51:50 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:51:58 stassats: what persistance lib? 19:52:00 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54:20 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:54:24 i do that by prepending the class in re/initialize-instance to the :direct-superclasses argument 19:54:37 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:54:52 fiveop: the one you shouldn't use, because it's not intended for public 19:55:49 fiveop: here's that bit https://github.com/stassats/storage/blob/master/mop.lisp#L49 19:59:20 stassats: Is that not comprehensive or explanatory enough for you? And if you only read two chapters, you did not get to the comprehensive explanatory CLOS-specific portion. 19:59:32 it's not actually prepended, but does the same thing as with standard-object with standard-class 20:00:34 stassats: Speaking of persistence, have you heard of Joe Marshall's ChangeSafe? 20:00:55 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 20:01:00 stassats: Uses MOP and CLOS extensively to achieve a performant version-control system, and relies on persistent objects to 20:01:02 do so 20:01:10 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:11 i heard, but i didn't care to read the barrage of blog posts 20:02:12 and i did not understand your first question 20:02:56 stassats: Oh, uh, I just joined the channel but you said that writing a comprehensive explanatory MOP document would be a good idea, and I think AMOP does a good job of that in the second half 20:03:09 stassats: The blog posts aren't so long, anyway. :P 20:03:33 i answered that with "it costs money and has a lot of pages" 20:03:50 kristof: that was another way of saying that was not interested in it 20:04:01 an object store, boohoo 20:05:08 -!- ggole [~ggole@124-169-109-213.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 20:11:38 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 20:12:01 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:17:41 i don't understand the cond structure. It's the example of CLHS http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm#cond 20:17:44 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-ell1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17:59 it's test instruction 20:18:05 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18:07 ? 20:18:26 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: trivial-irc-0.0.4] 20:18:27 define "instruction" 20:19:26 or you could just say what part you do not understand 20:21:05 in the example the cond finish end is just after the first test which return t ? 20:21:19 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 20:21:48 it only executes and returns the values of the first clase which test form returns non-nil 20:21:53 clause 20:22:29 nicknotused: (cond (predicate1 form1) (predicate2 form2) (predicate3 form3) . . . (else else-form)) 20:22:54 nicknotused: It takes that big ol' list of predicates, tests them one at a time, and as soon as it's non-nil, it executes the form and the value of the form is the value that is returned. 20:23:25 ok so it's like a select case in other language ? 20:23:27 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:23:38 It's exactly like a case control operator. 20:23:49 not really 20:23:56 :( 20:24:08 not exactly, lisp has its own case operator 20:24:27 bgs100 [~nitrogen@h113.117.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:30 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@h113.117.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:24:30 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 20:24:39 but the result is the same 20:24:44 not really 20:25:09 case takes a form and finds a clause with a matching value, cond executes arbitrary test forms 20:25:35 cond can do anything what case can, but not the reverse 20:25:41 milosn [~milosn@dab-ell1-h-29-4.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:55 ok so cond > case 20:26:26 cond => if .. elsif .. elseif .. else 20:26:50 if you can't get away from analogies 20:26:52 thanks i've understand the difference 20:28:40 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:28:55 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:39:20 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:39:25 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:33 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-67-96.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:43:55 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:45:54 Bike_ [~Glossina@71-222-63-213.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:04 -!- fiveop [~fiveop@p5DDC42B5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: humhum] 20:46:46 toroidalcode [~toroidalc@66.44.229.107] has joined #lisp 20:46:55 -!- Bike [~Glossina@67-5-228-14.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:46:57 -!- Bike_ is now known as Bike 20:47:10 why there are 2 fonction for incrementation in Lisp ? (incf & 1+) 20:47:21 there is a difference ? 20:47:25 nicknotused: 1+ simply returns a value, incf changes it 20:47:43 destructive vs not 20:47:53 ok 20:48:01 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:48:48 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 20:49:55 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:39 -!- sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:53:44 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:55:12 conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:37 -!- conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:58:39 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:01:31 -!- effy [~x@114.253.38.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:40 nicknotused: Many destructive functions have an "f" at the end of the function name. 21:01:47 ...I couldn't tell you what the f stands for. 21:02:49 effy [~x@114.253.38.170] has joined #lisp 21:02:53 the f means it does something to the place 21:04:05 from set field 21:06:07 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:06:45 Well that makes sense. 21:07:21 -!- CrazyEddy [~Mimosa@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:07:27 why when i have the list (1 2 3) and i do (push 5 (car *l*)) the result is (5 1 2 3) and if it's some letters like (A B C) the result is ((5 . A) B C) 21:09:48 nicknotused: I get ((5 . 1) 2 3) 21:09:57 i get that too 21:10:35 nicknotused: don't you mean (push 5 *l*) ? 21:11:05 CrazyEddy [~refathere@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:11:20 it will give you (5 1 2 3) or (5 A B C) allright that way 21:11:28 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 21:11:31 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 nicknotused: pushing something into the car of a list will give you a tree. Pushing something onto the list itself will give you another list. Your "examples" are not true, because the first would have been ((5 . 1) 2 3) 21:15:28 "not true" is a tad too harsh, i'd say "misguided". he's only starting, and i'm no master either myself 21:15:37 no sorry it's because i make my list with a serie of push so the result was (1 2 3) but in reality the list *l* is ((1 2 3)) 21:15:50 nicknotused: That is a list with one element. 21:15:55 yes 21:16:06 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:16:09 a list of one list 21:16:27 nicknotused: and you're trying to push to the front of that inner list? 21:17:31 with (push 3 (car (car *l*))) ? 21:18:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:41 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:54 if *l* is ((1 2)) the result is (((3 . 1) 2)) 21:19:07 yes 21:19:34 if *l* is a list of one list, (car *l*) would be enough to push to the inner list 21:19:40 you're getting the first of a cons cell, and then the first of that cell, which will be the value 1, not a list of (1 2) 21:20:38 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:58 nicknotused: What toroidalcode (just realized how cool that name is, reminds me of the #1=(programmable . #1) thing) said. The car of ((1 2 3)) is (1 2 3). The car of that is 1. 21:22:03 caar 21:24:29 but why if i set *l* to (nil) and then i do "(push 1 (car *l*))" the result is ((1)) and not just (1) ? 21:24:49 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-228-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:52 no sorry my question is stupid 21:25:16 it's (push 1 *l*) for the result (1) 21:25:29 well, think about it! :-) 21:25:30 no, it'll be (1 nil) 21:25:42 and that, too 21:26:17 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has joined #lisp 21:28:55 +1 stassats so why if i do that (push 1 (car *l*)) the result is not ((1 . nil)) and is just ((1)) ? 21:29:11 because that's how it works 21:29:30 nicknotused: nil signifies the empty list, which also signifies the end of a list if it appears in the cdr of a cell. 21:29:39 nicknotused: do you want a list of lists? because you could just do (setf *l* nil) (push 3 *l*) (push 2 *l*) (push 1 *l*) 21:30:01 and if you intentionally inserted the dot, then, ((1 . nil)) is exactly the same thing as ((1)) 21:30:59 note that properly formed lists cannot end in a dotted pair with the cdr being anything other than nil 21:31:47 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-ell1-h-29-4.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:32:03 logic :p 21:33:36 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:34:26 nicknotused: it seems to me you could have answered your questions yourself if you had tried. 21:35:13 kristof said " Many destructive functions have an "f" at the end of the function name." and what mean the n at the beginning of many symbols 21:35:22 nicknotused: non-consing. 21:35:52 nicknotused: In short, it messes with the structure of the list, but it's (sort of) faster. 21:36:01 which destructive functions have f at the end? 21:36:06 setf 21:36:13 that's not a function 21:36:18 It's a macro 21:36:26 which is a function that operates at compile time 21:36:52 nicknotused: For instance, nreverse climbs up a list and quickly just reveres the direction of the pointers. kind of. 21:36:55 no, you can't talk your way out of it, it's a macro 21:37:11 stassats: Then it's a macro. :) The point was merely that it's destructive. 21:37:25 it's a macro. it follows function naming conventions for consistency 21:37:55 toroidalcode: which function naming conventions are that? 21:38:15 and F doesn't mean it's destructive, it means that it modifies a place 21:38:33 I assumed the two to be equivalent. 21:38:35 -p for booleans, f for replacement 21:38:38 kristof nreverse it's just for the performance ? 21:38:50 nicknotused: Go read Practical Common Lisp. 21:39:00 ok 21:39:20 milosn [~milosn@dab-ell1-h-29-9.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:26 toroidalcode: can you name a function with "f for replacement"? 21:41:13 stassats: cliki is down, so I'm going to give you a cached page: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XYya5ojSFoMJ:www.cliki.net/naming%2520conventions+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us 21:41:31 it's a list of common naming conventions for CL and scheme 21:41:48 you said "it's a macro. it follows function naming conventions for consistency" 21:42:04 now, there's no functions with F at the end, they all are macros 21:42:04 ...yes? 21:42:55 destructive functions have n at the beginning 21:43:01 "The exact side effects of NREVERSE are intentionally not specified" it's in the book ^^ 21:43:13 i'm not trying to nitpick. maybe 'function naming conventions' should have been 'naming conventions' 21:43:47 I've personally written functions ending in f though 21:44:02 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:3116:c5a5:4db9:8aef] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:44:37 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:3116:c5a5:4db9:8aef] has joined #lisp 21:44:39 i just wanted to clear up the saying that functions do not end f, since that's reserved for places, and you can't use a function to modify a place 21:44:42 from there itself: "Some symbol naming conventions", not just "function naming conventions" 21:47:26 and then there is remove/delete, push/pop 21:49:05 well nreverse use just the pointer of the list to reverse it. But what's the interest ? "Just" to preserve the memory ? 21:49:11 KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC72F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:49:21 performance usually 21:49:36 ok 21:50:02 reverse basically has to cons up a new list, nreverse can avoid taht 21:50:28 nreverse does not work just on lists, it also works on vectors and other sequences 21:50:32 yes so it's useful when i have a big list 21:50:40 er, yes, i mean on lists. 21:50:52 my mistake. 21:51:27 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:f96f:a615:23db:4f87] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:51:29 nicknotused: the magnitude of the list doesn't matter much 21:52:06 nicknotused: yes, and it _will_ mangle up whatever you pass to it, so save its return value 21:52:19 a list of two elements reversed many times will be sped up by nreverse too 21:52:20 (nreverse foo) ; bad 21:52:27 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:52:45 (setf foo (nreverse foo)) ; good 21:53:01 alexandria:nreversef ; meh 21:53:09 stassats: does it cache the result? 21:53:27 nothing caches results 21:53:47 how is it sped up then? 21:53:58 clhs nreverse 21:53:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_revers.htm 21:53:59 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:54:02 oh, you mean in a procedure 21:54:27 sorry, i thought you meant like memoization 21:54:43 i commented "it's useful when i have a big list" 21:54:51 cgore [~cgore@108-209-245-92.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:53 it's useful when you have a short list too 21:55:42 -!- maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:56:24 stassats: how is that meh? it surely sounds quite interesting 21:56:45 nreversef is just a modify-macro, pretty simple 21:58:09 -!- InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 21:59:10 Notice that the operators whose name end by an #\f and that modify places are not functions, but macros. Functions couldn't do it. 21:59:31 i guessed so, but it sounds like it must be part of a family of similar macros from alexandria, which may come in handy 21:59:47 pjb: right, if only that weren't said several times already 22:00:22 ok. 22:00:57 I will have to write an AI avatar for this channel, eventually. 22:01:15 pjb-bot 22:04:34 this code make a list of integer from 0 to n-1 (let ((l '())) (dotimes (i n (nreverse l)) (push i l))) what is of use the nreverse here ? 22:04:41 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-72-50-120-233.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:50 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:03 nicknotused: try without 22:05:14 its name suggests that it performs a reversal 22:05:39 -!- knob [~knob@66-50-171-135.prtc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:05:41 nicknotused: you really should do some effort yourself 22:05:46 -!- knob3212 [~knob@adsl-72-50-120-233.prtc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 22:06:06 yes my question is badly formulated i mean why the nreverse is place here 22:06:07 knob3212 [~knob@adsl-72-50-120-233.prtc.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:42 that didn't make the question any better 22:06:52 ASau` [~user@p5083D6D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:07:12 you have to be more specific in your queries 22:07:19 nicknotused: check the clhs for the spec of dotimes 22:07:26 clhs dotimes 22:07:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm 22:09:09 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-ell1-h-29-9.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:09:51 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF1C1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:09:57 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6a9f2.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:12:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:16:17 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:16:29 milosn [~milosn@dab-ell1-h-29-3.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:08 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 22:19:06 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:19:49 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-193-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:20:01 quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:21:56 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-2925078734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:23:16 prxq [~mommer@x2f6a9f2.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 22:24:47 -!- toroidalcode [~toroidalc@66.44.229.107] has left #lisp 22:24:51 -!- lupine [~lupine@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:27:38 a slot in a class is like a property ? 22:27:46 nha [~prefect@koln-5d816765.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:29 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 22:31:09 Yes. 22:32:56 n0n0 [~n0n0___@c-24-5-192-204.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:25 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl16-204-150.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 22:36:08 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:37:33 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:38:16 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.170.83.65] has joined #lisp 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:41 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:41:24 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-5d816765.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:44:23 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 22:46:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:47:08 -!- nicknotused [5a05ee80@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.5.238.128] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:48:13 lupine [~lupine@unaffiliated/lupine-85/x-7392152] has joined #lisp 22:53:36 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has joined #lisp 22:55:16 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:57:10 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:59:01 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:59:47 -!- klltkr[JAX] [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:00:26 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:04:22 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:04:38 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:09:19 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:09:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:09 genericus [~generic@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:16:43 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:19:19 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 23:21:42 -!- fchurca [~fchurca@181.29.122.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:23:38 -!- tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.202.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:25:26 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:26:30 -!- corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28:10 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 23:28:32 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:48 tensorpudding [~tensorpud@99.148.204.195] has joined #lisp 23:29:18 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5000:7910:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:08 -!- zolk3ri [~zolk3ri@unaffiliated/zolk3ri] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 23:31:37 -!- genericus [~generic@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has left #lisp 23:36:23 -!- effy [~x@114.253.38.170] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:37 effy [~x@114.253.38.170] has joined #lisp 23:45:36 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 23:45:36 genericus [~user@68-112-75-203.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:08 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.194.91] has joined #lisp 23:51:05 olganak [~olganak@91.210.100.139] has joined #lisp 23:51:29 -!- olganak [~olganak@91.210.100.139] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:52:50 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52:56 KarlDscc [~localhost@p578FCB61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:53:20 -!- KarlDscc is now known as Guest23830 23:56:15 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p578FC72F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:56:38 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:57:51 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:05 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 23:58:05 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp