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Though I'm sure there are proper ways to do it. 00:47:27 I need to define int libusb_init(libusb_context **) 00:48:33 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dd3c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:49:54 quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:50:53 Posterdati: maybe define a type that is a ptr to libusb_context first, then FFI a pointer to that? Good for readability, otherwise useless in C where pointers are untyped and all same size 00:50:55 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:08 mmmh ok, tx 00:53:25 Posterdati: you probably need to wait for a 2nd (better) opinion as I'm hopelessly out of practice with CFFI. 00:55:28 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:48 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@c-107-3-131-216.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:02:02 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:34 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@166.137.104.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:02:38 -!- Adlai` [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:02:47 redscare1 [~Adium@18.205.1.190] has joined #lisp 01:04:01 -!- brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:47 brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has joined #lisp 01:06:40 -!- redscare1 [~Adium@18.205.1.190] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:06:50 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-190-55.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:08:12 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-189-204.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 01:13:26 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-173-250-189-204.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:13:35 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:13:57 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:18 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:15:37 It appears the Cliki Lisp app is working, but its front-end balancer is dead. http://www.cliki.net:8080/ 01:18:53 -!- quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has left #lisp 01:19:05 duggiefresh 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240 seconds] 01:42:59 At least it's still possible to get on cliki. 01:44:07 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@70-7-11-23.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44:32 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:46:22 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:41 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:52:29 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:36 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:00:12 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@115.Red-88-10-10.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 02:03:31 -!- xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:04:49 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.194.106] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:51 xristos [x@ns3.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 02:14:14 -!- xristos is now known as Guest29504 02:21:11 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#lisp 02:52:47 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6cfc4.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:56:01 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f67e3d.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:11:10 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:15:28 -!- sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:18:57 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:19:32 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-88-152-128-84.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:19:35 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 03:27:12 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-85-3.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:27:26 Good morning everyone! 03:28:05 morning 03:28:26 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:29 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 03:34:17 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:35:02 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-3-172-126.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:16 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:36:32 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-3-172-126.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:37:03 -!- Alfr [~Unknown@g225155047.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:38:53 -!- rtoym_ [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:57:13 copyninja_ [~kakashi@146.185.137.224] has joined #lisp 03:57:32 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:57:35 -!- copyninja_ [~kakashi@146.185.137.224] has quit [Client Quit] 03:58:55 copyninja [~kakashi@146.185.137.224] has joined #lisp 03:59:10 flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has joined #lisp 04:00:21 -!- revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:04:21 I want to make a program that will load images in a directory inside the same file it's in. Is there an easy way to get the current working directory? I looked online, but it seems trying to get the cwd is frowned upon. Is there a better way to do what I want? 04:05:34 Petit_Dejeuner: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html maybe? 04:08:53 revolve [~steve@psybernetics.org.uk] has joined #lisp 04:11:57 abbe_ [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 04:12:21 -!- exotca [uid17279@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vmlwnandxretboqb] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:35 -!- abbe [having@badti.me] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:12:46 -!- Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:46 -!- joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:46 -!- abbe_ is now known as abbe 04:12:46 -!- sbryant [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:46 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:46 -!- ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:12:46 -!- gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:05 sbryant_ [freenode@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 04:13:11 -!- dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-agceorrmmswufyur] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:17 rvirding__ [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ebldnktmndmtwivs] has joined #lisp 04:13:18 -!- sbryant_ is now known as sbryant 04:13:36 -!- devon [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:36 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:13:52 justinmcp_ [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 04:14:01 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 04:14:01 -!- sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:01 -!- rvirding [uid5943@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cejlcawsvkoqwvvz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:01 -!- yonkeltron [~user@unaffiliated/yonkeltron] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:02 -!- K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:02 -!- Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:08 -!- rvirding__ is now known as rvirding 04:14:17 joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has joined #lisp 04:14:22 -!- flame_ [~flame_@unaffiliated/flame/x-0205742] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 04:14:26 -!- qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:26 -!- justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:28 yonkeltron [~user@unaffiliated/yonkeltron] has joined #lisp 04:15:26 dotemacs [uid801@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mizcmysotxbflfle] has joined #lisp 04:15:36 Ralt [Ralt@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:6c69] has joined #lisp 04:15:37 sthalik [sthalik@aurora.misaki.pl] has joined #lisp 04:16:53 qlkzy [qlkzy@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:4a4a] has joined #lisp 04:17:53 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:18:38 ggole [~ggole@106-68-216-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:19:23 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 04:19:27 pellegrino [~pellegrin@2001:1af8:4010:a043:3::] has joined #lisp 04:19:56 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 04:19:59 ircbrowse [~chrisdone@2a01:4f8:150:5307::2] has joined #lisp 04:20:51 K1rk [~Kirk@equinox.epecweb.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:27 kahu [~kahu@c213-89-204-206.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:29:08 Bike, eh, is there anything I can use that won't require me to mess with asdf? I really just want it working so I can see if the program is doing what I want with slime. 04:29:55 the second thing doesn't use asdf 04:29:56 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:14 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:31:06 Bike, You're right, I guess I just didn't want to mess with packages or anything related at all. Oh well, that's unrealistic. Time to read more of PCL. Thanks. 04:31:19 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:07 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:33 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 04:34:47 Lonzykins [~textual@dhcp-130-58-169-116.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 04:36:07 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-216-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 04:37:02 ggole [~ggole@106-68-216-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:40:02 -!- abbe is now known as abbe_ 04:42:07 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 04:44:55 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:45:23 sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has joined #lisp 04:45:35 Yamazaki-kun [~bsa3@jetalone.facefault.org] has joined #lisp 04:47:03 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-116-71.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:26 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined 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[Client Quit] 08:17:05 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:17:06 musicalchair [~musicalch@192.241.203.74] has joined #lisp 08:17:08 cenhyperion [~cenhyperi@192.241.224.166] has joined #lisp 08:17:09 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:17:17 photex [~photex@192.241.224.216] has joined #lisp 08:18:20 hiredman [~hiredman@volyova.ec2.thelastcitadel.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:42 is it okay for two different classes to have accessors with the same name? 08:30:59 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:03 STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has joined #lisp 08:33:10 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:40be:50dd:1fd8:fcfc] has joined #lisp 08:33:18 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.207.221] has left #lisp 08:36:47 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 08:37:47 -!- prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6cfc4.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:38:07 prxq [~mommer@x2f6cfc4.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:39 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 08:44:57 -!- sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:47:41 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:09 -!- desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:52:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:53:16 sigjuice_: Yes. 08:56:44 sigjuice_: Two such accessors will just turn into two different methods on the same generic function. 08:58:39 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.28.250] has joined #lisp 08:58:43 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.28.250] has quit [Changing host] 08:58:43 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:58:55 -!- maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:40 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:57 sigjuice_, slime inspector and fmakunbound are your friend :) 09:00:16 sup beach 09:00:27 Hey theos. 09:00:40 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 09:00:42 A week with lots of work but not much to show for it. 09:00:48 :) 09:05:27 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 09:08:28 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:10:43 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@145-7.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:11:23 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:12:14 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:13:30 maxpeck [~a@r49-2-21-39.cpe.vividwireless.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:13:32 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 09:13:43 -!- maxpeck 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quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:35:42 vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:47 buenos dís 09:40:15 Hello vaporatorius. 09:40:44 morning beach 09:41:41 vaporatorius: Are you working on any interesting Lisp project? 09:41:42 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-4.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 09:42:50 beach, I think that las things that I did in lisp where about 20 years ago in mulisp 09:43:17 Hmm, so a bit out of practice I take it. 09:43:29 so... and I'm very very "offline" 09:43:44 vaporatorius: It is not too late to get back online. 09:44:33 Shinmera [~linus@62-12-207-191.pool.cyberlink.ch] has joined #lisp 09:45:11 but the distance from get back to "interesting Lisp project" isnt very small :) 09:45:29 Granted. 09:45:36 TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.149.59] has joined #lisp 09:45:49 Baby steps and all that. 09:49:31 vaporatorius: Presumably, you are hanging out here for a reason, right? 09:50:03 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-3.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:30 abunchofdollarsi [~user@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 09:54:23 dsevilla [~user@206.Red-83-43-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:58:22 protist [~protist@1.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:58:26 <|3b|> Posterdati: all pointers in cffi are :pointer, or you can specify what it points to with (:pointer foo). As far as i know it doesn't use that info though 09:59:43 <|3b|> so libusb_context ** could be :pointer or (:pointer (:pointer libusb-context)) assuming you have libusb-context foreign type defined 10:01:06 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:01:07 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:02:28 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-197.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 10:03:59 -!- conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:04:10 -!- dsevilla [~user@206.Red-83-43-78.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:04:31 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.216.143] has joined #lisp 10:08:32 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.26.131] has joined #lisp 10:08:36 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:08:43 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@109.129.26.131] has quit [Changing host] 10:08:43 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 10:11:58 lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:23 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.149.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:15:19 TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.149.59] has joined #lisp 10:15:42 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-3.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:16:27 sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 lman [~lman@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lisp 10:18:54 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@65.129.149.59] has quit [Client Quit] 10:21:22 -!- abunchofdollarsi [~user@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:23:04 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-4.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:49 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 10:27:53 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:27:56 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:36:32 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:08 -!- maxpeck [~a@unaffiliated/maxpeck] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:39:23 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-4.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:40:43 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:43:15 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 10:46:31 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:47:06 Joreji [~thomas@157-103.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:38 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-2.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 10:54:06 Can anyone tell me if/how it's possible to establish an interactive connection to a MySQL database with CLSQL? (Or maybe an alternative lib that can do it) 10:55:09 what do you mean by "interactive connection"? 10:55:55 MySQL allows a CLIENT_INTERACTIVE flag on connect that sets a much longer timeout on the connection. 10:57:44 I'm trying to write a bot that logs messages to a database, but I want to avoid reconnecting every time it should write a new log message, so a longer timeout would be useful. 10:58:16 ok - why do you want to avoid reconnecting? 10:59:01 it just seems wrong for the purpose. 10:59:30 i'd ignore the issue. i've looked into cl-mysql and it does not seem to provide the client interactive flag 10:59:39 alright, thanks. 10:59:54 so if you did not find it in clsql, you may be best off ignoring it and continuing with your real task :) 11:00:12 Well, I currently don't have a real task, so I'm just trying to round off ugly corners. 11:02:23 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-1-2.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:02:28 -!- Joreji 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#lisp 15:25:20 milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-7.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:08 -!- SamSkulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:33:32 LoicLisp [~ethan@89.35.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:36 -!- Ethan- [~Ethan-@60-248-176-37.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:39:35 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDB9C63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:41:02 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dd3c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:48:35 -!- HG` [~HG@31.205.59.111] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:50:38 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-crx1-h-6-7.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:52:49 milosn [~milosn@dab-bas2-h-84-7.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 15:55:24 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:15 mathrick: Just a quick update: I have mostly been working on the infrastructure in CLIMatis in order to get Climacs to work well, especially when it comes to displaying very large buffers without performance degradation. I still have a few days of work on that, I think. 16:01:31 -!- Shinmera_ [~linus@62-12-218-090.pool.cyberlink.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:02:42 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:10 Shinmera [~linus@62-12-218-101.pool.cyberlink.ch] has joined #lisp 16:04:40 mathrick: You said you would start working on Climacs "next year". Can you be more specific? 16:07:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07:33 wg4096 [~wg@tmo-097-155.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 16:07:46 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-3-172-126.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:38 xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 H4ns: qmynd nowadays is a nice enough driver for MySQL 16:14:35 oh, and for real work, I would have adviced a switch to PostgreSQL of course 16:15:34 -!- xotedend [~quassel@c-50-134-32-169.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:15:52 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:18:45 -!- Vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 16:19:02 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-bas2-h-84-7.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19:31 -!- wg4096 [~wg@tmo-097-155.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: wg4096] 16:20:11 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:59 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 vaporatorius [~vaporator@240.Red-88-5-230.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:39 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-82-201.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 16:24:34 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:26:57 milosn [~milosn@dab-bas2-h-84-10.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:14 -!- LoicLisp [~ethan@89.35.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:27:49 -!- Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:39:03 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39:33 zickzackv [~faot@p4FC9792C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:40:44 loke` [~user@mumbai-124-93.primenet.in] has joined #lisp 16:41:16 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-165-174.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:50 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:43:13 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:44:21 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-72-66-106-10.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:38 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:49:36 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:52:10 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 16:52:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:53:00 beach: nice 16:53:24 beach: yeah, I hope that to mean pretty much literally next year, ie. sometime in January 16:53:39 Oh, OK. 16:54:02 dim: so you solved the performance and memory problems? 16:54:03 Then I will make sure that CLIMatis is as ready as I can handle. 16:54:08 cool 16:54:18 though I'm not necessarily averse to working on CLIMatis 16:54:29 in fact, I fully expected to need to work on it 16:54:47 mathrick: Yes, I realize that, but I need to have the roadmap fairly clear and explicity. 16:55:26 mathrick: Maybe I'll work on an explicit roadmap in the documentation. I think that could be valuable for others as well. 16:55:41 CLIMatis is an interesting project on its own, and I meant Climacs to be an editor as well as a substantial project to inform the development of CLIMatis 16:56:03 I see. 16:56:09 back when I first started thinking about doing some work on Climacs, it was nowhere near as complete as it is today anyway 16:57:22 beach: remember the talk about modern UI metaphors in CLIM-like system from earlier? I'm still very much interested in that, and I think the space is completely unexplored atm, which we need to solve before any realistic LispOS can happen 16:57:24 OK, I understand. That's helpful information. 16:57:41 Yes, I completely agree. 16:57:48 flat address space is one thing, but I really want an OS that can be used in 2015 for 2015 things, and so on 16:58:28 Ambitious project, but it's worth trying I think. 16:58:29 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:58:58 beach: so I still think Climacs is the perfect project because I need it for itself, and I fully mean to leave GNU Emacs for good, but it's also the part of building CLIMatis as a solid basis for all the UI we will need and want to do 16:59:16 *a part 16:59:34 Sounds like my own words :) 16:59:36 it's just the UI that we know best and CLIM is already well-suited for, so it makes sense to start there 17:00:33 OK, as usual you provide inspiration for further work. I think I know what to do next then. Very helpful. Thanks! 17:00:35 beach: I was actually thinking about it recently, one of the problems with CLIM is that it's fairly abstract and non-specific. Which is a problem if you want to do things like animations, and we have learnt that well-placed animation can help the UI immensely 17:01:35 beach: hehe, happy to be of service. I find that I'm often better with ideas and outlines than mundane keyboard banging. One of the reasons I want to work on the latter aspect and do some honest coding 17:02:35 Doing the actual work is rewarding in its own right. 17:03:01 It helps understanding many design decisions. At least for me. 17:03:05 beach: btw, you should not take it to mean I actually expect LispOS to be my daily driver in 2015. I'll be more than happy to reach that state by 2020 already :) 17:03:12 yeah, definitely 17:03:31 Oh, sure. LispOS might be another couple years away. 17:04:16 ... and since we don't agree on how to do it, we'll make it a race! :) 17:04:25 heh 17:04:50 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-12-200.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 One thing I would like to do is to get much better organized writing systematic tests. 17:06:07 beach: hopefully most of it will be shareable 17:06:10 oh yes 17:06:13 It is very hard to do that with GUI stuff, though. 17:06:18 I haven't figured out a good approach to tests yet 17:06:26 and yes, GUI is tricky, though it's possible 17:06:34 I've explored that in some detail previously 17:06:38 I know, but it might require some thought. 17:06:56 gabnet [~user@ACaen-652-1-156-37.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:04 I have read some books that had some ideas about it. Maybe I will try to dig them up again. 17:07:49 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@220-134-193-4.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 17:07:59 beach: good introspection is what you need for most meaningful tests, but CLIM should provide that by default already :) 17:08:17 there are two main classes of testing: behavioural and pixel-based 17:08:21 mathrick: Of course. It's Common Lisp after all. 17:08:48 behavioural is things like "there should be an input box, and if I type foo there, baz will show up in this output frame" 17:08:49 -!- CrazyEddy [~argilloca@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:08:50 I think testing on the pixel level is going to be tricky. 17:09:08 morlos [~morlos@cpe-172-251-66-225.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:13 -!- morlos [~morlos@cpe-172-251-66-225.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:17 pixel based is constructing layouts under known circumstances and comparing them to pre-made reference screenshots 17:09:18 Right, the behavioral approach is what I have read about in the past. 17:09:31 Sounds tedious. 17:09:32 morlos [~morlos@cpe-172-251-66-225.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:47 beach: it's less tricky than it sounds if done right, and it catches the kind of failures you won't be able to notice otherwise 17:09:52 it's automated 17:10:02 so basically it tells you whenever things diverge from the stored thing 17:10:15 I think it might work with a predictable backend. 17:10:16 if you do it right, things shouldn't change unexpectedly 17:10:20 yeah 17:10:30 you obviously set it all to known settings 17:10:32 OK, food for thought. 17:10:44 Yes, I think I see what you mean. 17:10:45 and if it fails, it's still information, because you have missed a variable somewhere 17:10:56 which is helpful in its own right 17:11:08 Sounds like what tests are all about :) 17:11:12 knowing what your variables are is the first half of the battle 17:11:13 indeed 17:11:24 corni [~corni@2a02:8071:280a:fd00:222:4dff:fea7:6685] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 -!- corni [~corni@2a02:8071:280a:fd00:222:4dff:fea7:6685] has quit [Changing host] 17:11:24 corni [~corni@drupal.org/user/136353/view] has joined #lisp 17:12:36 beach: also, I expect most of the work to be perfectly applicable to whichever approach(es) to LispOS we take for many years to come 17:12:56 Yes, I agree. 17:13:14 though obviously it might change if you don't think practical usability matters, pjb-style and I do, etc. 17:13:33 but then we'll have notes to compare 17:13:47 Yes. I am not worried about that. 17:15:32 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:15:35 mathrick: I should go prepare dinner. See you later. 17:15:37 -!- loke` [~user@mumbai-124-93.primenet.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16:11 but given what I've seen of his ideas about what to base it on, it'll be a master SBCL process most likely, which will be the base of my own L4 ideas, so that still actually translates nicely across 17:16:31 beach: right, bon appetit 17:16:40 I need to do some shopping myself, I ran out of food :) 17:17:51 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 17:19:59 Pixel based testing can be done, comparing both images, highlighting pixel differences. There can be knobs to the filter, to care for eg. antialiasing. Any big difference has to be validated by a human tester. 17:20:11 the postmodern in current quicklisp fails to compile here 17:20:12 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-52.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:20:14 It is still useful, when you have a graphic application. 17:20:17 anyone having the same proble,? 17:20:51 pjb: exactly 17:21:07 and GUI is kinda necessarily graphical 17:21:54 Some GUI are more symbolical. In a database application you could care less about pixels. As long as the info is displayed on screen. 17:22:14 *couldn't care less 17:22:28 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:22:36 and yes, but DB application would be tested for DB stuff. A GUI toolkit would be tested for GUI stuff 17:23:07 and if you have glitches that make it unreadable (say black text on black background), you still want to catch those, even though technically "the info" is still there 17:23:17 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:26:42 mathrick: you could still care a little about pixels, that's why I said that ;-) 17:28:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:50 -!- Loymoev [~loymoev@host-68-152-66-217.spbmts.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:32:14 -!- sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:33:50 -!- milosn [~milosn@dab-bas2-h-84-10.dab.02.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:35:37 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 17:36:06 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:37:04 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p4FC9792C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:38:17 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:40:09 -!- michael_lee [~michael_l@222.90.49.124] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 17:42:29 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-130-232.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:46:02 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 17:46:41 milosn [~milosn@dab-bas2-h-84-7.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 anyone here familiar with building and shipping tcl/tk for use in ltk common lisp applicaitons, esp under osx? I'm having problems getting tk to link with tcl, and I was wondering if anyone has been down this road before 17:50:51 -!- gabnet [~user@ACaen-652-1-156-37.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:14 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:58 tavara [~tavara@195.78.109.94] has joined #lisp 17:53:02 -!- tavara [~tavara@195.78.109.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:55:45 Not recently. Don't macport or homebrew provide tcl/tk? 17:56:14 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-167.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:56:25 CrazyEddy [~botherati@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:57:25 -!- vaporatorius is now known as Vaporatorius 17:57:44 pjb: yes, and at the moment, osx ships with them too 17:57:50 or at least, my version does. 17:58:37 pjb: I'm trying to get to a place where I can build tcl/tk with the intent to ship the binaries with future lisp applicaitons instead of make users install ports 17:59:05 and gain this capability for windows and linux as well. since it seems like tcl/tk is pretty easy to build, or so I thought. 17:59:36 oh, I see. Well usually it's done with ./configure --with--prefix= 18:00:11 scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:00:17 But as I said, I don't have recent experience with it. last time I tried tcl/tk must be more than ten years ago 18:00:50 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:01:06 pjb: yea I got that far. when following the instructions on their website, tcl builds fine, then when I build tk and point it at the existing tcl build, there is a linker error related to missing symbols referenced in a tkUnixRFont.o 18:01:14 pjb: gotcha, thanks 18:01:48 ehu` [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:01:54 i remember talking to someone, I thought it was here, who had liked using ltk to ship standalone applicaitons with CL, including the binaries for tcl/tk 18:02:26 mc40_ [~mcheema@146.255.107.122] has joined #lisp 18:02:28 chr```` [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 18:02:55 leoc` [~leoc.git@p5DDB9C63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:04:03 angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 18:04:04 H4ns` [hans@netzhansa.com] has joined #lisp 18:04:12 justinmcp [quassel@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:3fac] has joined #lisp 18:04:16 beach` [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-85-3.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:04:54 jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 jangle: what exactly is the error? 18:05:01 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 18:05:04 milosn_ [~milosn@dab-bas2-h-84-10.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:07 yonkeltr` [~user@yonkeltron.new.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #lisp 18:05:09 can you paste a full buildlog somewhere? 18:05:17 sklr_ [~clarkema@31.222.178.169] has joined #lisp 18:05:24 Cheery_ 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[~hiredman@volyova.ec2.thelastcitadel.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:10 gko [gko@2400:8900::f03c:91ff:fe70:e605] has joined #lisp 18:07:20 -!- Kruppe is now known as Guest30076 18:07:21 dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:22 -!- H4ns` is now known as H4ns 18:07:34 bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 I think shipping standalone lisp executables is a silly idea, albeit convenient 18:11:08 We do not ship standalone java binaries 18:12:23 seangrove [~user@rrcs-173-196-16-2.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:28 You don't (usually) ship Java source code, though 18:14:47 -!- zkc [~zhangkaiz@27.47.15.94] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:17:38 -!- jtza8_ [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:18:20 kristof: more people have JVM installed than a CL impl 18:18:32 <|3b|> java has a separate runtime, so you can ship non-standalone binaries for java 18:18:41 and if you did that, you'd need to deal with image dumping and similar 18:18:42 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:56 because loading even fasls is awfully slow on SBCL for example 18:19:21 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 18:20:14 *|3b|* has thought it might be interesting to try to 'diff' an image relative to the starting image to try to get something that could be quickly loaded by a separate/shared runtime, not sure if it would actually work well or not though 18:20:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-71-197.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 <|3b|> diff at the lisp level that is, so finding actual objects not in the original rather than just comparing octets in the final image 18:22:51 |3b|: yeah, I was thinking of the same 18:23:14 some kind of .basl structure 18:23:26 it'd be very much shared libs for lisp 18:23:47 a .so is a bunch of C-level binary objects + relocation table 18:24:08 <|3b|> well, more than 1 of them at once would be messier than c libs 18:24:36 probably, but it'd be nice to find a solution to allow loading multiple ones 18:25:03 <|3b|> hard part is that using CL code can have arbitrary side effects 18:25:03 HG` [~HG@31.205.59.111] has joined #lisp 18:25:22 <|3b|> for example a lib might cache some info about uses of the library 18:25:56 you'd likely need a protocol for libs to plug into to solve it 18:25:57 <|3b|> or defining methods probably affect some common objects 18:26:00 much like ASDF does 18:26:18 sdemarre [~serge@131.77-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:26:20 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [] 18:26:29 <|3b|> so at that point you are starting to end up back to .fasl, where you have to run arbitrary code at load time and it starts getting slow again 18:26:41 scoofy [scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:30:11 mathrick: give me a moment to build without tests and I'll make a shorter log 18:30:33 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 18:30:42 mathrick: That's why I said it's convenient. 18:31:01 ggole: I understand that; the equivalent to shipping a jar would probably be shipping a FASL 18:31:42 kristof: it's not silly if it's how reality works 18:31:57 lisp is kind ill-suited towards prepackaged distribution in general 18:32:01 WarWeasle [~Kaltara@172.242.21.170] has joined #lisp 18:32:29 mathrick: I suppose. Compared to the 90s, though, it seems more and more reasonable for people to have to install runtimes onto their computer; Python, for instance. 18:33:14 -!- brain_shim [~brain_shi@135-23-97-181.cpe.pppoe.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:33:34 right, but runtimes require certain critical mass before you can reasonably require them. Which Lisp is also ill-suited for, on account of not being particularly concerned about popularity or "lisp community" 18:33:44 That is also true 18:33:49 Although that's true, anything which increases the friction of getting your software working is a poor idea. 18:33:57 :( 18:34:02 so you're back to shipping packages that also include runtime, ie. self-contained images :) 18:34:19 Cloud-computing might be a very interesting domain for lisp 18:34:27 If installing a runtime is absolutely trivial (or it can be expected to simply be there already), it's much more acceptable to require one 18:34:49 kristof: I think lisp had a stronghold in "cloud computing" before it was even a thing :) 18:34:52 And given the speed of compiled common lisp over Python and (especially) Ruby, it might even be an appealing choice 18:34:56 c.f. Bash, Perl (maybe Python these days). 18:34:59 mathrick: Of course, but not in an enterprise visible way. 18:35:01 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 of course 18:35:17 mathrick: Clojure is making interesting headway in complicated cloud environments 18:35:33 I'm thinking of machine-learning, databases, and data-analysis in particular 18:35:41 by piggybacking on the lowest common denominator, but yeah 18:35:56 mathrick: Like you said, reality :) 18:36:07 I'm not sure I like clojure though. It's a nice JVM language, but not particularly amazing lisp 18:36:17 n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:40be:50dd:1fd8:fcfc] has joined #lisp 18:36:23 Hickey has some interesting ideas 18:36:28 The JVM is an inhospitable host, I think. It is nothing but a headache for language implementers 18:36:29 of course, given the choice between more Java and more Clojure, I'd always choose the latter 18:36:36 ggole: He has no new ideas. None. 18:36:37 yeah, it's terrible 18:36:42 it used to be worse 18:36:48 Of course. 18:37:07 That's ok: most genuinely new ideas are terrible 18:37:09 mathrick: http://pastebin.com/seJXYmVV 18:37:10 Sun made it a point to obscure the relationship between Java the runtime, Java the language and Java the spec 18:37:34 mathrick: Coming from Clojure, and now using Common Lisp, I can see quite clearly that Clojure is almost entirely a strict subset of Common Lisp with some slightly better concurrency libraries. 18:37:43 having three distinct meanings overloading a single term, and all docs insisting that they're precisely the same was not exactly good 18:38:35 I was mostly surprised that all the really cool features that had enamored me in Clojure were entirely present in Common Lisp. Things like destructuring. 18:38:44 kristof: FSVO "subset". The syntax is weird and unappealing to me, with way too much punctuation and needless choice 18:39:01 (map :key) and (:key map) being the same thing is just stupid 18:39:07 mathrick: Oh, come on. :) Compare Clojure to Javascript. Or any other non-lisp language, reallyu 18:39:14 oh I know 18:39:18 mathrick: Errr, no, that's useful in some circumstances. 18:39:23 like? 18:39:33 Not having to write gethash key map 18:39:50 kristof: but that's already served by (map :key) 18:39:56 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:40:07 I don't see why you'd allow it to be written (:key map) at the same time 18:40:09 mathrick: Maybe it's a stylistic thing, then. :P 18:40:18 pick one style and stick to it 18:40:27 mathrick: They're not entirely the same thing, too. One of them (I can't remember which) errors if the key is not present. 18:40:28 needless choice is bad 18:40:41 heh, now that's just awful 18:40:43 mathrick: "Needless choice is bad". Then Common Lisp certainly loses in some ways. 18:40:53 (map :key) and (:key map) are _not_ the same thing, and it's not about whether the key is present. 18:41:09 hzp: There is maybe one other difference. 18:41:16 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:41:30 kristof: actually, no. CL has little needless choice, most of "why'd you do it two ways" situations are strictly for hysterical raisins 18:41:32 Oh! I didn't want to start nitpicking Clojure, anyway. This was meant to be a positive discussion. 18:41:36 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 18:41:38 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:1c54:b2dd:92a4:7685] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:41:45 hzp: oh? What is the difference? 18:41:59 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:42:33 mathrick: Whether the variable called "map" in the example above is nil or not. 18:42:39 kristof: yeah, assuredly it's about the best you can get on JVM. I think it's a sign of agreement that we don't argue violently about whether clojure should at all be option on the JVM, but nitpick finer points :) 18:42:52 EvW [~Thunderbi@2001:981:5f09:1:1c54:b2dd:92a4:7685] has joined #lisp 18:43:24 hzp: ah. I guess that makes some sort of sense, but is still gnarly IMHO 18:43:44 jangle: lemme take a look 18:44:03 Anyway, if you explained to someone just how fast Common Lisp is compared to Python and Ruby, just how extendable it is, just how flexible it is, the fact that lisp code is trivially hot-loadable, the incremental development . . . and you would make them wonder why we bother using Python or Ruby for those domains. :) 18:44:20 And error-handling! And the advice system! 18:44:38 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 18:44:43 mathrick: if more applications apt-get install'ed by users had as dependency some CL implementation, then CL implementations would be found more commonly on linux systems. 18:44:50 jangle: OK, so those symbols are from FontConfig, and I'd expect them to be private, given the leading underscore 18:45:03 Don't be afraid to have a CL implementation as dependency (or tcl/tk). 18:45:16 Just tune your .deb file! :-) 18:45:23 pjb: That's harder on operating systems like Windows where it's uncommon to require "dependencies". 18:46:02 In fact, that's not a problem at all on Linux, in the first place. "Requires sbcl? Only 30ish MB? Ok!" 18:46:04 pjb: eh, .deb is a strawman really in many circumstances 18:46:12 like, as kristof notes, on windows or OSX 18:46:30 Oh, it's 67MB; that's still miniscule. 18:46:46 Compared to that monstruous GHC 18:47:08 Yes, on windows or macosx, you just put everything in the file package. 18:48:27 dammit 18:48:32 This week at work, I downloaded a 400+ MB virtualbox osa to get less than 1KB of script. They just packaged the script with a debian linux to make sure they have the drivers 18:48:49 heh 18:49:45 ...But debian is less likely to have (proprietary) drivers for something than other flavors of Linux. 18:50:56 (Also, what is a map? If you answer "anything for which map? returns true", then the example given is wrong because (map :key) only works if map is an IFn, and not every IPersistentMap is an IFn.) 18:51:06 Well, usb drivers at that No, actually it was packaged like that to be able to run on windows or macosx, it just happened I was using linux :-) 18:51:10 *hzp* will stop the off-topic nit-picking now 18:52:05 hzp: So much dabbling in Java just to understand the workings of Clojure... :P 18:55:19 -!- protist [~protist@1.224.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56:59 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-216-146.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 18:58:14 -!- n0n0 [~n0n0___@2602:306:c410:500:40be:50dd:1fd8:fcfc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:00:37 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:43 Alonzo_ [~textual@dhcp-130-58-169-116.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 19:04:44 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-59-163.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:53 -!- Alonzo_ is now known as Lonzykins 19:05:39 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:08:06 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:08:44 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 19:08:57 -!- HG` [~HG@31.205.59.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:09:35 oroverde [~oroverde@91.210.101.35] has joined #lisp 19:09:58 -!- oroverde [~oroverde@91.210.101.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:40 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11:20 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.83.10] has joined #lisp 19:13:51 -!- WarWeasle [~Kaltara@172.242.21.170] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 19:14:56 InfusoElAmbulant [~nonononon@cm-188-171-10-178.telecable.es] has joined #lisp 19:15:13 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:15:37 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:15:37 -!- everamzah [~james@cpe-72-224-186-195.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 19:16:34 strobegen1 [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has joined #lisp 19:16:49 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:57 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:17:07 hello, I've got a little problem trying to make some macro, what I want is some of the params of the macro to be evaluated, I think, just like x in (dotimes (a x) ... ), but I can't find dotimes definition and I don't know if it's a macro even 19:17:23 I'm new to common lisp 19:17:32 -!- sauerkrause [~krause@cpe-24-55-25-199.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:17:55 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:18:24 -!- erg [~erg@166.78.160.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:18:24 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1096686679.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:18:30 erg [~erg@166.78.160.216] has joined #lisp 19:18:54 sauerkrause [~krause@cpe-24-55-25-199.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:58 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:19:09 conjecTech [~alex@c-98-251-50-173.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:35 -!- ehu` is now known as ehu 19:21:39 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:22:21 InfusoElAmbulant: what have you written so far? Use http://paste.lisp.org/new 19:22:40 -!- CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:23:04 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #lisp 19:23:35 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:51 fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has joined #lisp 19:23:58 InfusoElAmbulant: read this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html, especially the once-only macro at the end 19:26:02 thank you very much, actually that's one of my main sources leraning lisp, I can't believe I didn't payed attention to that 19:27:33 -!- seangrove [~user@rrcs-173-196-16-2.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:28:32 other_nick-37 [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 19:30:28 Patzy_ [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:21 theBlack1ragon [~dragon@77.109.122.2] has joined #lisp 19:31:54 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:32:23 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:32:24 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@77.109.122.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:32:24 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:32:24 -!- Kromitvs [~quassel@mcqueen.rnl.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:32:31 -!- theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 19:33:03 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:06 dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #lisp 19:33:31 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 19:36:05 jangle: here? 19:36:17 mathrick: yes 19:36:59 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:38:20 jangle: try LDLIBS=-lfontconfig make 19:38:23 and see if that helps 19:38:45 specifically, you should check the gcc invocation lines if it passes -lfontconfig on 19:38:53 i have $LDFLAGS+=$(pkg-config --libs fontconfig), which on the command line seems to emit the appropriate lines 19:39:24 and is the build log including that addition? 19:39:34 because I don't see it mentioned in the paste you gave 19:40:11 -!- angavrilov_ [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:27 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:46:50 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:48:05 i'm looking 19:53:52 Say, what's the deal with CLiki.net, it's been down for like 12+ hours now 19:54:20 bgs100 [~nitrogen@h113.117.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:25 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@h113.117.187.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Changing host] 19:54:25 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:54:48 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.28.250] has joined #lisp 19:54:49 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@147.30.28.250] has quit [Changing host] 19:54:49 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 19:55:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:16 -!- Lonzykins [~textual@dhcp-130-58-169-116.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 19:57:26 wel for starters, it looks like the tk configure script is finding my ports version of tclsh 19:57:53 although it also finds my locally built version too 19:59:57 quasus [~stanislav@bl6-188-249.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:00:59 i don't think my line is making it through 20:01:09 jangle: that could be a problem. Does the -lfontconfig thing help though? 20:02:15 even with LDLIBS= ? 20:02:35 i'm trying it now 20:03:25 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:51 I don't think the line is making it in 20:09:41 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:09:44 -!- milosn_ is now known as milosn 20:11:28 I wonder if tcl needs to be built with it instead... 20:12:46 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-4-173.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:11 nope, still not making it in. 20:13:20 jangle: I wouldn't be surprised if it was libtool messing things up 20:17:06 jangle: try just hardcoding -lfontconfig in the invocation line in the makefile, see if that helps 20:17:20 at least we'll know if it's the right direction 20:21:45 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:23:23 so, i didn't get any linker errors, what should I do to test to see if it worked? 20:24:26 dcxi [~dcxi@115.Red-88-10-10.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:52 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-71-175-2-214.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:08 i opened my locally built version of tclsh, and invoked wish, and wish is open with the demo running, is there any chance that the locally built version is using the ports version instead? is there any way for me to tell? 20:26:22 er, I'll take that to the tcl channel 20:27:20 -!- fsvehla [~fsvehla@h081217030130.dyn.cm.kabsi.at] has quit [Quit: fsvehla] 20:27:24 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: restarting router] 20:28:44 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:30:05 -!- beach` [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-85-3.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:30:22 jangle: if it built, then at least we know the missing link line was the problem 20:30:42 I think that did it. I don't understand why it was so hard to include the normal way. 20:30:53 how are you telling it to use the "locally built" version? What is the locally built version anyway? 20:31:38 desophos [~desophos@cpe-23-240-149-52.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:24 -!- Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:34:22 i have the tcl and tk sources in the same folder 20:34:39 and i'm building tk, giving it the location of my locally built version in the configure script 20:34:55 and now that tk successfully builds and links, (I'm assuming its responsible for wish and graphics and stuff) 20:35:22 when I run my local build of tclsh and invoke wish, then i'm in good shape? 20:37:01 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:37:45 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@2a02:1205:5000:7910:223:54ff:fe38:82c2] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:37:57 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-196.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:34 mathrick: I have to go now, thanks for walking me through it. I appreciate it 20:39:09 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:39:30 jangle: I don't think just dumping them in the same folder is the recommended way. You should ask in #tcl how to do it properly 20:39:31 and no problem 20:40:20 well i mean, i haven't mixed them together, my tld includes 3 directories and my buildscript, 2 of those directories are the source trees for tcl and tk. 20:40:43 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:12 and I will. every gui i've tried to compile and use has given me problems. I was hoping this one would be simpler. 20:41:41 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-59-163.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:42:17 nug700 [~nug700@71-35-72-58.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:44:41 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 20:45:16 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:52:21 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:52:53 -!- KaiQ [~localhost@p5DD9EFC3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:53:12 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 20:55:52 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-108-3-172-126.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 20:56:24 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-94-147.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:59:17 -!- nug700 [~nug700@71-35-72-58.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:59:59 Adlai [~Adlai@unaffiliated/adlai] has joined #lisp 21:02:31 n0n0 [~n0n0___@adsl-75-10-252-113.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:35 minion: memo for jangle: you could use the lsof command to see what file descriptor (library, socket, etc) is open in the wish process, and find out whether it's connected with the right processes. 21:02:35 Remembered. 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