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[platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 03:59:57 nialo` [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 -!- newblue [~user@2601:1:bf00:850:212:f0ff:fe87:2295] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:06:31 -!- ZC|Mobile [~weechat@unaffiliated/forgottenwizard] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 04:08:26 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:17:23 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:40 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20:15 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:20:19 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:00 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined #lisp 04:23:32 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@c-69-255-124-145.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 04:23:33 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 04:24:59 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:25:45 cory786 [~cory@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:28 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:40 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:33:45 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:45 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34:33 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:08 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 04:38:15 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-64-109.w109-223.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:38:30 Good morning everyone! 04:38:30 beach, memo from mathrick: largely pie in the sky at this point, but do you know a documentation system (TeX-based or not) we could use or adapt for online, hyperlinked docs? A PDF is fine for writing chunks of the spec, but for actual user documentation, a Document Examiner kind of affair is necessary at some point 04:38:32 so is SLIME still the "best" emacs common lisp development environment? 04:40:05 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-gkvgnoatycnyhweu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:41:12 sup beach 04:41:57 zacts what other options you got? 04:42:06 theos: I don't know 04:42:10 I'm looking at marmalade 04:42:16 I've installed geiser for scheme 04:42:23 but don't know about common lisp 04:42:33 that was the point :) 04:42:41 oh, I see 04:42:46 thanks 04:44:19 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-hqlbgfzibhzyhedo] has joined #lisp 04:44:53 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:59 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-hqlbgfzibhzyhedo] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:31 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:03 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 04:46:03 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 04:46:08 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-mzxqptetyviauzjd] has joined #lisp 04:46:49 For kicks I wrote an inspector using CLIMatis, and I was able to find a bug in CLIMatis by using the inspector to inspect the inspector. :) 04:49:02 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 04:49:45 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:50:19 heh nice 04:52:13 *beach* goes to get his morning coffee. 04:52:56 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:53:03 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 04:56:34 Yeah, and the entire thing is only 210 lines of code, but it only does a reasonable job with lists, symbols, and instances of standard-object. 04:57:03 More methods are needed for instances of other classes. 05:00:02 g'evening #lisp 05:00:11 Hello nydel. 05:01:01 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:02:06 Jubb_ [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:57 -!- Jubb_ [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:06:53 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.41.191] has joined #lisp 05:13:06 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:14:01 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:20:26 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:26:02 anything interesting happening? 05:27:01 nydel: Yes, of course! As always. 05:29:52 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:03 alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:31:26 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:32:03 :) care to fill me in on anything in particular? 05:32:36 nydel: This week, I have been working on Second Climacs, and I am making good progress. When I started working on the GUI, I got interested in CLIMatis (implementation of CLIM3) again, so I was working on that too. 05:32:38 i've been spending the past hour struggling with tmux and file permissions over /dev/pts contents, i need something less tedious 05:33:15 beach: what operating system are you working with? 05:33:28 you're implementing clim? 05:33:40 nydel: I am just using Ubuntu GNU/Linux. 05:34:10 Bike: I am designing CLIM3 and writing CLIMatis, and implementation of it. 05:34:17 oh, i see. 05:35:18 Bike: I am still happy with what we did with McCLIM, but I think there are too many issues with the spec, so it is hard to know what it is supposed to do, and therefore hard to maintain. 05:36:07 I hope CLIM3 will be a simpler system, and more adapted to what computers are capable of these days. 05:39:57 -!- vircures [~vircures@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 05:41:01 nipra [~nipra@122.177.95.225] has joined #lisp 05:43:15 i love the ubuntu. in fact i'm on day two of a binge configuring my brand new system76 lappy 05:43:57 it's essentially everything i wanted for lady linux since over a decade ago 05:44:02 -!- ashish__ [having@badti.me] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:44:38 -!- cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:45:50 -!- madnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:46:13 m4dnificent [~madnifice@static.146.73.9.176.clients.your-server.de] has joined #lisp 05:46:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:32 -!- _d3f [~gnu@vm5.rout0r.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:49:03 ashish__ [~lostcase@badti.me] has joined #lisp 05:51:12 -!- Longlius [~Longlius@homura.memphis.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:51:24 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 05:54:54 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 05:56:17 beach: i can never seem to get CLIM working for me. i always backslide to tcl/tk through CFFI 05:56:54 i'm emacs slime sbcl. i wonder if you know of a nice hello world tutorial that might get me on track? 05:57:07 (with mcclim that is) 05:57:13 (er CLIM) 06:03:23 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:04:15 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 06:06:25 nydel: That ought to be possible. 06:06:44 nydel: In fact, there are probably demos in the McCLIM hierarchy already. 06:06:49 *beach* checks... 06:09:58 zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has joined #lisp 06:11:53 nydel: I just did (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :mcclim) followed by (asdf:operate:load-op :clim-examples) followed by (clim-demo::demodemo). 06:12:11 That gives a bunch of examples that seem to do something interesting. 06:12:14 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:12:34 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 06:12:54 nydel: In particular, the infamous Address Book demo seems to work. 06:13:16 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:42 nydel: Don't feel any pressure to actually do that. I just pointed out that things are not as bad as some people would like you to think. 06:16:10 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 06:17:24 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:18:20 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 06:18:35 beach: i'm really motivated to get comfortable with gui development and common lisp now. it's just proven so very difficult. my best succeses are using a webserver for a html interface or the :cl-tk package with wish. 06:19:07 Sure, whatever you are comfortable with. 06:19:11 i'd really like to be able to utilize clim or qt/gtk at least 06:19:12 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 06:19:46 nydel: McCLIM might be a bit quirky, but it is quite usable and quite stable. 06:20:35 tcl/tk isn't really very lispy and even though the :cl-tk package makes "hello world" wildly easy, the awkward communication between wish/tcltk and cl make the whole thing feel very sloppy 06:21:12 Yes, and that's why I want a GUI library that is written entirely in CL. 06:21:24 what if instead of me writing gui, we convince the world to go back to terminal? 06:21:37 yes beach that's what turns me on about clim 06:22:18 nydel: What kind of GUI do you want to create? 06:22:28 i'm gonna take some time to chew on that address book right now. i think there's just a learning curve probably 06:22:48 nydel: OK. Don't hesitate to ask for help. 06:23:20 i do mostly "ai" research in relation to music theory and composition 06:23:37 Wow, nice! 06:24:04 i don't mind a sea of text and unformatted data but i would be more productive if i could whip up GUIs for whatever i'm doing at any given moment 06:24:22 I agree completely. 06:24:51 also i might be able to solidify something into a package that is accessible to the cl community on an ideative level, without a gui the work may seem all over the place 06:25:23 Using McCLIM, I wrote a little program to load in a text in Vietnamese, and when I hold the mouse over a word or a sequence of words, it shows me the English translation in another pane. 06:25:46 It took me 2 hours or so. 06:25:57 that would be quite a mess to write into lisp with tcl/tk 06:26:13 With McCLIM it was a breeze. 06:26:36 Now, McCLIM is not very "pretty". 06:26:36 all right nydel enough messing around with hunchentoot 06:26:46 *nydel* slaps face 06:26:51 But it does the job. 06:27:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host243.186-109-101.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:27:21 get it together! i'm gonna tackle mcclim right away and hopefully not get too frustrated by my incompetence 06:27:24 nydel: Do you need to present standard music notation? 06:27:41 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:28:13 beach: it would be ideal. for now i have a structure that represents a note with a timestamp length tone volume etc all relative to the beginning of the score 06:28:35 nydel: I assume you are aware of Gsharp, right? 06:29:46 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:30:38 beach: i am, it's lovely, but i'm generating compositions in large quantities (feeding my program music by chopin, analyzing, generating 1000 new compositions in that style .. tweak, repeat) 06:30:43 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 06:30:56 I see. Interesting! 06:30:59 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:31:16 Can you pull out gsharp into a library? 06:31:40 Bike: That might be possible. 06:31:56 well, i guess you don't need to do rendering when you're bulk-composing 06:33:39 Rather than turning current Gsharp into a library, my plan right now is to design its successor (correcting the design flaws of V1) and use CLIM3/CLIMatis as the GUI library for it. 06:34:02 But again, there are so much work to do, and so little time. 06:34:09 *is 06:35:05 i find that musical composition after the baroque is little more than recombination. we collect data and critera from diatonia, subconsciously-ish, a datum here and a counterpoint voicing there, then assemble the pieces. 06:35:44 if that recombination is trivial, would you be studying it? :p 06:35:46 composition at this point in history is more about creation of collage than raw originality 06:36:08 nydel: I assume you mean up until the 20th century, right? 06:36:23 beach: on that note, i think i'm going to try to port my work code to lisp and then build my program optimization ideas (like the type stuff) around that. practical, right 06:36:30 actually i mean everything after bach 06:36:39 beach: CLIM3? Do you have any published descriptions of it? I long for a F/OSS GUI in Lisp 06:36:43 nydel: Ravel? Stravinsky? 06:36:57 after bach we see the emergence of a standardized music theory based on his chorales in four voices. 06:37:06 I know some pretty awesome remixes of Stravinsky. 06:37:46 rules such as "no paralell octaves/fifths" etc... once his large body of work was analyzed into building blocks everything afterward was different 06:37:48 nydel: Yes, harmony theory was quite stable for some time. 06:38:10 not during late romantic/early 20th century 06:38:18 those are definitely new ideas 06:38:30 p_nathan2: It's work in progress. But there is documentation. Look at the CLIMatis project on GitHub/robert-strandh. 06:38:37 chord from rite of spring still gets to me 06:38:42 recombination creates new ideas 06:38:56 Bike: Remind me what your work code is and your optimization ideas! 06:38:58 i have no point or opinion in the matter, please understand 06:39:58 in the logical conclusion we find that the invention of a diatonic scale makes for music theory and composition (not sound engineering) to be all recumbancy 06:40:11 Bike, haha 06:40:15 beach: my work code is unrelated - just a fairly big thing that I would like to make go as fast as possible. my optimization ideas are pretty unformed but are something like a replacement for compiler macros and a better type system. 06:40:19 w|t: ? 06:40:41 beach: thank you sir 06:40:50 nydel: out of curiosity can you apply (analogs of) this stuff to carnatic music etc 06:40:53 p_nathan2: Anytime! :) 06:41:19 p_nathan2: Please let me know what you think about it so far. 06:43:11 I'll digest the spec 06:43:14 yes, Bike, really the difference there would be primary mode (that "indian" sound etc) but it's still playable on a piano (quintessential diatonic devics) 06:43:22 jephree [~user@99-122-69-191.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:40 coo 06:43:45 primarily my goal with all this actually is to write better music, by the by. 06:44:09 or make something that can? :p 06:44:20 also it's just an incredible amount of fun to listen to an infinite amount of brand new Chopin pieces on a saturday evening 06:44:27 exactly Bike! 06:44:49 if you can't beat 'em, make one of 'em to do sh't for you 06:44:58 I heard a bit of, uh, what's it called, one of those things that did the same thing. Nice listening to artificial bach. 06:45:14 was pretty good 06:45:23 oh, cope. 06:45:29 it may have been EMI 06:45:35 yeah that's cope, he was my professor at UCSC 06:45:37 I've always felt that automatically generated music was "flat"; no passion or flair. 06:45:41 haha, cool. 06:45:51 But I *am* a bit of an authenticity snob for music. :) 06:46:17 well, this conversation made me switch from p-funk to japanese techno stravinsky, i have no taste 06:46:21 p_nathan2: check out cope's work fooling juliard music students 06:47:01 Bike i'm listening to the soundtrack from the cartoon Adventure Time so no judgement here 06:47:18 haha, good to know 06:47:49 i have a buddy who's a musician and he watches lots of cartoons inbetween buying generalized guitars 06:48:09 sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:48:20 mid-cartoon music videos have gotten amazing 06:48:27 nydel: do you have a link? 06:49:12 I don't know that I'l choose the best in my surfing youtube & the internet 06:49:21 p_nathan2: david cope's home http://artsites.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/biography.htm 06:49:37 Anything that is particularly excellent? 06:49:44 at the least you can find there some generated compositions by "after-debussy" and "after-bach" etc 06:49:58 if the mazurkas are up.. let me see 06:50:06 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:50:22 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.90.104] has joined #lisp 06:50:34 http://artsites.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/works1.htm ? any good ones there? 06:50:36 http://artsites.ucsc.edu/faculty/cope/mp3page.htm 06:50:46 the mazurka by after-chopin 06:51:19 that piece kills me, it's as good to me as any of my other favorite chopin 06:51:53 Is that played by human or synth? 06:51:55 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:03 human :) 06:52:07 (rationale for asking: humans would interpret) 06:52:31 at juliard, the performer wasn't aware which was which 06:52:43 all very on-the-up-and-up 06:53:43 *p_nathan2* ponders 06:54:14 I don't like Chopin, as a rule. I'll pass it off to people who have a better sense of the piano 06:54:34 I presume the Bach-alike is pretty good? 06:55:08 actually bach was the most difficult. i believe this is because our music theory rules are directly pulled from his work. 06:55:16 not us-the-programmers but us-the-world 06:55:17 -!- ashish__ [~lostcase@badti.me] has quit [Quit: We are all in the gutter, but some of us are dreaming of butter. (abbe)] 06:55:36 Ah. 06:55:40 ashish__ [having@badti.me] has joined #lisp 06:56:05 I would expect it to be relatively easy to create a mediocre Mozart knockoff. 06:56:11 yes? 06:56:39 lol yes and //thankkk you// 06:57:35 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:57:42 Mozart has some truly algorithmic pieces all on his own. :) 06:58:33 haha how true and politely-put. 06:58:49 i don't suppose nydel buys that stuff about the art of fugue 07:01:57 nydel: I've listened to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kuY3BrmTfQ before - I honestly think it lacks "flair" which vivaldi displayed. (foofy technical term there. ;-) ) 07:04:14 fugue me running, i hadn't heard this 07:04:52 i'd believe the band muse "composed" this, but vivalidi..no no. 07:05:07 You don't think it's authentic cope? 07:05:11 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:06:12 i bet it is. a large part of the experiments involved creating and selecting pieces that were intentionally neither horrible nor outstanding 07:06:13 BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 (in the double-blind-esque thingies, unknown pieces needed to be selected, which were naturally unremarkable. so the generated compositions needed to match quality) 07:09:27 mind you the after-vivalidi is hurt badly by that it is synthesized 07:10:07 Yeah, an actual musician would interpret it and raise quality of sound 07:11:26 strings are always bad synthesized. i drove myself crazy trying to generate a decent cello a few years back 07:13:09 -!- jephree [~user@99-122-69-191.lightspeed.milwwi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:17:46 nostoi [~nostoi@238.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:43 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:19:00 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 07:21:37 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:24:04 -!- ASau [~user@p5083DB6A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26:14 ASau [~user@p5083DB6A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:30:33 nydel: What method did you use? 07:35:18 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:37:51 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 07:40:55 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:41:07 -!- BlankVerse [~pankajm@202.3.77.238] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:41:18 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.90.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42:57 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Client Quit] 07:44:06 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:24 beach: i just did this http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6425038/ i would swear i had tried that before with no success but here it's all good 07:45:34 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:08 _d3f [~gnu@vm5.rout0r.org] has joined #lisp 07:46:37 beach: i was kinda tab/autocomplete-guessing the code, will need to figure out exactly what it all is. but having a general idea is a much better start than the last 10 times i tried this! 07:47:38 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:51:03 adam789654123 [~user@c-68-37-85-13.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:25 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@238.Red-79-157-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 07:52:57 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:55:57 nydel: Good to hear you succeeded this time. 07:56:09 thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 07:57:11 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:57:25 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:57:42 prxq [~mommer@x2f6cba8.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 07:58:43 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.95.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:59:09 -!- zz_karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:59:09 -!- cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:59:09 cibs [~cibs@118-163-170-73.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:15 zz_karupanerura [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:59:52 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 08:04:43 pjb: you guys should adopt Russian or German so that you don't confuse verbs with nouns that derive from verbs. :D 08:05:09 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:05:09 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 08:05:09 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:05:39 ASau: What prompted that remark? 08:06:05 very silly argument about naming conventions 08:06:10 (several hours ago) 08:06:18 They had discussion distinguishing macros and functions. :D 08:06:32 Oh, right. 08:06:56 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:07:44 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.52.116] has joined #lisp 08:08:03 or maybe prefix macros with "m" and functions with "f", hungarian notation style 08:08:06 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4db4e885.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:18 yuk! 08:08:54 or let your editor differentiate them for you (eg with bold or italic) 08:09:35 This reminds me of another alternative: 08:10:02 write in colours and code this difference in colour directly. 08:10:28 yea that would be cool 08:10:36 or, MACROS and functions 08:10:37 's colorforth. 08:10:37 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 08:10:53 Bike: you knew it! 08:10:58 what if we combine two suggestions. macro names in russian, function names in german. 08:11:04 special forms can be finnish. 08:11:19 Bike: only if using different scripts 08:11:32 russian steals from german 08:11:47 as an english speaker i can hardly complain about stealing from german. 08:12:31 so, cyrillic for macros, latin for functions, and devanagari for special variables? 08:12:32 stassats: no problem, use Arabic script for Finnish 08:13:08 One can also functions of names in order words the reverse, RPN. 08:13:32 Or just name functions in Polish. 08:14:47 asljcsovjoisu [~asljcsovj@net-188-217-255-157.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 08:15:15 stassats: nobody needs Russian or German, Chinese is the best language for programming. 08:15:37 -!- asljcsovjoisu [~asljcsovj@net-188-217-255-157.cust.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [] 08:16:44 -!- ashish__ [having@badti.me] has quit [Quit: We are all in the gutter, but some of us are dreaming of butter. 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#lisp 11:42:27 nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has joined #lisp 11:47:19 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:48:46 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:32 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:57:48 munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:03 -!- gko_ [~gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:59:00 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:03 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:04:24 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:06:03 SBCL threads on windows are really broken... 12:06:39 while they appear to work superficially, a two-year old child can bring them down 12:09:34 nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has joined #lisp 12:09:47 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has left #lisp 12:10:22 nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has joined #lisp 12:12:21 TheShrubber [~jonas@ip123021.directconnect.no] has joined #lisp 12:12:46 -!- echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:13:22 echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has joined #lisp 12:13:29 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-69-243.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:16:42 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-69-243.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 12:17:13 stassats: I don't think they actually really worked before. 12:19:25 they do work now, albeit i can deadlock the gc on command 12:19:27 <|3b|> stassats: i think i get through the sbcl tests on windows maybe 25% of the time, probably less 12:19:41 *|3b|* hasn't tried in a while though 12:20:13 <|3b|> looked like GC problems from what little i could tell, so probably same deadlock 12:20:30 -!- logand [~user@e178126216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:20:56 logand [~user@e178126216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:31 it's the worst thing to track down, but at least it's not something completely non-deterministic 12:24:57 i'm just surprised by the kinds of bugs i'm finding all the time, did the person who bolted the threads onto windows try running the test suite at all? 12:25:39 stassats: so, they work but deadlock themselves very often? 12:26:10 *|3b|* has wondered about how that got missed too 12:26:18 hitecnologys: GC deadlocks in the presence of threads 12:26:55 i do not yet know whether all threads have to cons or not 12:27:00 stassats: oh, that is horrible. 12:27:17 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 12:27:18 it is, it's a showstopper 12:27:18 k0001 [~k0001@host150.186-109-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 12:27:38 sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 12:27:47 but, i eat such kind of bugs for breakfast 12:27:50 *|3b|* also wonders about all the "we want to use it in production but can't because of kitten of death" people 12:28:18 -!- echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:18 *|3b|* guesses they just never start extra threads or something 12:28:49 echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has joined #lisp 12:29:15 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Changing host] 12:29:15 aoh [~aki@unaffiliated/aoh] has joined #lisp 12:29:41 |3b|: windows on production? 12:30:00 <|3b|> releasing windows sbcl binaries 12:30:32 stasu [~al@79.114.13.131] has joined #lisp 12:30:33 I see. 12:30:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:30:47 hi guys, do people here use lispbox? 12:31:28 Why haven't anyone implemented cross compilation support yet? 12:31:44 what's the point? 12:31:50 Why not? 12:32:19 you have to test it on the target anyhow 12:32:36 only makes sense if the target is really low-powered 12:32:45 and you can cross-compile most of sbcl for such cases 12:33:14 But that would at least allow us to say -- "Your Java sucks!". 12:33:41 nothing stopped me before 12:34:11 <|3b|> doesn't clisp have portable .fasl files if you want something like java? 12:34:53 Anyway, sbcl was the only compiler I've ever used that successfully ran the same code on both Windows and Linux. C++ was pain... 12:35:14 |3b|: yes, it does. But CLisp is slow and lacks some cool features. 12:35:28 <|3b|> so "like java" again? :p 12:35:34 Sure. 12:35:53 But it's certainly better. 12:36:43 However, we have ABCL. Java programmers have nothing except this Clojure thing. 12:37:55 <|3b|> presumably they have ABCL too 12:38:13 <|3b|> or at least could if they wanted 12:39:44 Nah, Java is everything. Who needs other languages if we already have Java? 12:42:23 let's not talk about java 12:47:00 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:49:27 -!- Guest47061 [~iwilcox@217.229.90.146.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:50:29 iwilcox [~iwilcox@31.185.128.190] has joined #lisp 12:50:29 -!- iwilcox is now known as Guest76173 12:50:38 hargettp [~hargettp@c-65-96-162-255.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:20 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:53:26 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@c-65-96-162-255.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:56:55 jk121960 [~jk121960@108-89-22-112.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:09 mk2 [~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de] has joined #lisp 12:59:11 opt9 [~user@112.187.229.68] has joined #lisp 12:59:15 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:00:50 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:01:49 ggole [~ggole@106-68-36-199.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:01:54 keen__ [~blackened@pdf8791d1.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:01:57 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host150.186-109-110.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:02:15 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:02:42 platypine [platypine@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:42 -!- platypine [platypine@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:02:42 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 13:03:42 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:04:03 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:04:26 -!- keen_ [~blackened@p3b931224.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:04:59 nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has joined #lisp 13:05:23 mk2` [~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de] has joined #lisp 13:06:30 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 13:06:48 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:11 -!- mk2 [~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:08:53 killmaster Praise ircbrowse sytse loke__ otwieracz capisce oconnore ski 13:08:53 sid_cypher sshirokov tessier |3b| PuercoPop jayne 13:08:53 *** Users on #lisp: w|t deego emma BrianRice devon kaygun Nshag ^self 13:08:56 entitativity bhyde sfa easye jsucsy1 nightshade427 Tristam bjorkintosh 13:08:59 mathrick ggherdov tvaalen ve j_king TristamWrk aftershave dlowe impulse 13:09:03 ferada balle robot-beethoven Tordek hyperboreean cyphase kirin` ahungry 13:09:03 clog Cheery stopbit Roin samebchase wyan photex nitro_idiot_ Sourceless 13:09:06 KingNato_ ramus subtlepath eak epsylon` cross oGMo Amadiro mshroyer 13:09:08 Hey! 13:09:09 Watcher7 sbryant Yamazaki-kun dsp_ K1rk gf3 Tribal gko 13:09:14 *** Users on #lisp: sauerkrause vhost- plathrop igorw gabot jasom gemelen 13:09:18 Kruppe copec Ralt mau_ drdo mal___ tkd Subfusc daimrod yonkeltron 13:09:18 tensorpudding felideon hpd Natch theBlackDragon housel mtd finnrobi yroeht 13:09:21 freiksenet yeltzooo obre felipe scharan sigjuice_ DrForr koisoke Fade loke 13:09:24 redline6561 acieroid xristos justinmcp dan64 pok johs clop2 ineiros_ 13:09:27 MikeSeth Anarch ivan newcup ckoch786 antoszka peccu ered pchrist yano 13:09:31 tinyghost benny nightfly eli __main__ vnz seantallen 13:09:32 ban him plz 13:09:34 *** Users on #lisp: bege Krystof kbtr AntiSpamMeta ecraven galdor_ 13:09:35 wow 13:09:37 The_third_man dim aajmakin jsnell Zhivago gluegadget cmbntr sjl tali713 13:09:40 brown` stuckie ozzloy clop enn tomaw Neptu srcerer bobbysmith007 hypno_ 13:09:42 We're fucked. 13:09:43 Wukix`` Blkt quasisane fe[nl]ix BlastHardcheese dRbiG kmder 13:09:45 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:47 *** #lisp modes: +Ccn 13:09:50 *** #lisp was created on 2003-08-03 23:30:32 13:09:50 who are the ops in this channel? 13:09:51 *** klltkr (~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr) has joined channel #lisp [14:05] 13:09:54 *** platypine (platypine@unaffiliated/doritos) has quit: Ping timeout: 245 13:09:56 ERC again? 13:09:57 seconds 13:10:01 *** mk2 (~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de) has quit: Ping timeout: 260 seconds 13:10:04 ERC> Is it possible to configure Slime such that it can use CCL's interface directory for completion? 13:10:07 I would find it very useful, if it could show me the arguments if I write something like this: 13:10:10 (#_fftw_plan_dft 1 iptr ptr ptr #$FFTW_FORWARD #$FFTW_ESTIMATE). 13:10:13 sorry 13:10:25 hmm... 13:10:27 Fail. 13:10:29 "sorry"? 13:10:38 mk2`: update your ERC 13:10:59 I think it was supposed to have been fixed 13:11:14 w|t: it's an old flaw in ERC 13:11:15 mathrick: I accidentally copy and pasted the wrong text, I think. 13:11:23 what is erc? 13:11:33 emacs IRC client 13:11:34 w|t: Emacs IRC client. 13:11:38 nialo` [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:39 oh, wow 13:11:41 too powerful it seems 13:11:46 that is a pretty bad flaw 13:12:24 mk2`: what do you mean by CCL's interface directory? 13:12:41 some FFI thing? 13:14:04 mk2`: of course it's possible, but there's nothing like that 13:14:12 mathrick: Yes, it comes with a version of GCC that parses C headers and stores them in a database. http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter12.7.html 13:14:21 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:15:06 mk2`: in that case you'd need to write your own completion method, as I don't think anything built-in has a way to hook into it 13:15:41 stassats: how's your rewrite going btw? 13:16:02 rewrite of what? 13:16:03 *mathrick* is very interested in a rethought SLIME 13:16:08 of SLIME/SWANK 13:16:24 there's no rewrite, everything is from scratch 13:17:49 that's what I meant, I don't know what you're doing exactly, but "from scratch" qualifies as a rewrite in my book if it's meant to be roughly the same system fixing flaws that cannot be worked around in the old one 13:18:50 QuuQu [~other@188.162.65.68] has joined #lisp 13:19:04 mk2`` [~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de] has joined #lisp 13:19:22 hello, i have started with lisp recently 13:20:00 hello 13:20:39 -!- mk2` [~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:20:59 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-246-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:21:26 QuuQu: Good decision 13:21:54 -!- mk2`` [~user@musketeer.wlan.uni-jena.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22:27 i'm struggling with json get key algorithm and finally got something wokring http://vpaste.net/gnp4r 13:22:46 but implementation is a bit clunky 13:22:51 how can i improve it? 13:23:09 don't use recursion 13:23:16 use ASSOC 13:23:52 stassats: thanks, i'll try that 13:27:26 an easy way: (reduce (lambda (x y) (cdr (assoc y x))) '(:city :name) :initial-value *j*) 13:27:56 you could even do (reduce #'alexandria:assoc-value '(:city :name) :initial-value *j*) 13:30:53 Wow, thats cool, thanks 13:31:35 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:11 -!- CrazyEddy [~hough@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:13 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-178-228.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:37:31 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-189-219.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:38 -!- QuuQu [~other@188.162.65.68] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:38:58 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:43:28 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9E0AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:33 hargettp [~hargettp@c-65-96-162-255.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:15 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 13:49:01 CrazyEddy [~analkalin@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 13:50:08 -!- stasu [~al@79.114.13.131] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:50:53 -!- zeebrah [~zeebrah@unaffiliated/zeebrah] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:53:07 dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:11 hitecnologys: re qt on windows, looks like qt itselfs needs msvcp100.dll, but i built smoke with msvcp120.dll, and included it, hence it didn't work 13:55:31 i need to rebuild it with VS2010 13:56:02 and maybe make a zip file with only qt libraries, since there's really no need to download 235 megabytes of stuff you wouldn't use 13:56:11 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.239.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 13:58:59 -!- CrazyEddy [~analkalin@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:59:18 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.239.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:04:53 -!- logand [~user@e178126216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:36 logand [~user@e178126216.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:07:01 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:22 STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.36] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 CrazyEddy [~conificat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:16:34 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:30 nipra [~nipra@122.177.22.91] has joined #lisp 14:20:32 vircures [~vircures@c-98-230-174-67.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:20 stassats: OK 14:21:45 stassats: that would be cool. 14:21:53 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:22:14 i need first to figure this deadlock bonanza 14:23:25 mathrick: Are you still here? 14:24:06 mathrick: I suggest you write all your issues down, and I'll stick them in an appendix in the documentation so that they won't be forgotten. 14:24:25 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:24 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 14:26:51 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:26:51 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:28:01 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:59 -!- desophos_ [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:29:21 -!- devon [~devon@2001:470:8b2d:7fc:a800:ff:febf:caf9] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:32:55 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:41:26 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:31 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 14:46:53 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 14:46:54 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:32 hugoduncan [~user@70.24.177.56] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:38 -!- hugod [~user@70.24.180.96] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:50:45 -!- gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:51:49 -!- nialo` [~nialo@ool-18bbb124.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:51:57 Thanks for the suggestion of using various scripts in lisp sources, but I must remind everybody (myself included) that portable programs must be written only in the standard-char character set. (1.5.2.2 Character Set for Portable Code). 14:52:25 Hi pjb! 14:52:48 Therefore, unfortunately, the recent addition of #+asdf-unicode :encoding #+asdf-unicode :utf-8 to asdf makes libraries using it unportable :-) 14:52:49 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:52:52 beach: Hello! 14:54:25 leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBBFFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:29 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:03 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 14:59:26 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:30 sellout-1 [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:17 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 15:00:45 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 15:02:41 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:33 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:03:56 -!- sellout-1 [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:05:59 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 15:10:33 -!- hugoduncan [~user@70.24.177.56] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:12:23 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@c-65-96-162-255.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 15:12:56 Okasu [~1@188.162.65.24] has joined #lisp 15:13:01 -!- Okasu [~1@188.162.65.24] has quit [Changing host] 15:13:01 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 15:19:47 -!- ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:20:04 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:21:44 ThePhoeron [~thephoero@CPE68b6fcc5ca13-CM68b6fcc5ca10.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:07 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:26:45 guaqua [gua@hilla.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 clint5 [~juan@190.48.16.128] has joined #lisp 15:27:08 greetings 15:27:22 Hello clint5. 15:28:52 I'm trying to learn about domain specific languages on common lisp. 15:29:34 Good! 15:30:04 I've read some scheme code using the macro facilities, how would be that on cl? 15:30:22 clint5: `defmacro'. 15:30:51 I'm trying to implement a "mini procedural language" on cl 15:31:11 is there something like scheme's define-syntax on cl? 15:31:18 No. 15:31:29 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:47 clint5: As didi points out, CL has macros that are typically created using DEFMACRO. 15:35:23 right. I didn't mean that. 15:35:56 I'm looking for a facility to specify an edsl syntax, like scheme define-syntax. 15:36:28 clint5: DEFMACRO is what is used in CL to create new syntax. 15:36:39 clint5: have a look at pseudo, which is a r4rs scheme implemented in CL, perhaps it has a define-syntax. 15:37:09 clint5: you may also google for: hygienic macro common lisp, IIRC recently somebody worked on such a library. 15:37:22 otherwise, you will have to implement it yourself, which shouldn't be too hard either. 15:37:32 If you want something that looks like define-syntax, I think in fact that define-syntax is often implemented on top of DEFMACRO, so there ought to be some library out there for that purpose. 15:37:46 (just take the code for define-syntax from one free-software scheme implementation and port it to CL). 15:38:57 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:15 "just" 15:39:35 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 15:41:14 did clint5 ask for a hygienic macro system? i would think that clint5 is just confused 15:41:19 Again, if you're lazy, use pseudo to run it, if it doesn't already include one. 15:41:48 pjb:I've checked pseudo. It seems to be r4rs conformant except from tail recursion and continuations. 15:41:58 stassats: I'm the difficult guy. He asks for define-syntax, I tell him how to get define-syntax. 15:42:07 s/I'm/I'm not/ 15:42:21 clint5: if you're trying to implement a DSL, you don't need to emulate scheme 15:43:18 Yeah, that's a pretty twisted way to implement a DSL. 15:43:26 I'm looking for a facility to specify an edsl syntax, like scheme define-syntax. 15:43:30 ... remove most of the power from your macro system and then suffer. 15:43:39 clint5: you also don't need to repeat yourself 15:44:08 so defmacro it will be. 15:44:38 I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be a troll or something like that. 15:44:40 clint5: OK, here is a question. If you are looking for define-syntax why don't you just use Scheme? 15:45:00 clint5: despite what the name suggest, define-syntax isn't particularly made for making new syntaxes, it's just a way to define macros 15:45:03 interestingly, as ECL becomes dormant, GCL wakes up. 15:45:03 beach: talking now, but will do 15:45:06 with a bit of pattern matching 15:45:09 clint5: I mean, CL has more powerful macros than that, but you intentionally want less power, so why don't you just stick to Scheme? 15:45:11 clint5: the problem is what you mean by "like". 15:45:21 hey mathrick 15:45:24 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 15:45:35 Fare: but for how long? 15:45:37 if you want the same API and features, then as I said. If you want to define macros in CL, then use defmacro. 15:45:40 clint5: you can build your own define-syntax, if you want. 15:45:57 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 stassats, finitely long, like us all 15:47:21 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:47:23 clint5: you can watch a video, if you like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0 15:47:46 clint5: you can even do it in a way that reuses the CL reader (see p-cos's hack), or by redefining your own reader (see my reader-interception package) 15:48:07 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:48:07 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 15:50:21 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:51:45 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:51:47 I really appreciate your help. 15:51:55 If we don't have access to internal compiler types (and presupposing we don't use existing solutions setf + destruct/cons/etc); is the only way to update something while preserving it's identity is using closures? 15:52:09 bye 15:52:13 -!- clint5 [~juan@190.48.16.128] has left #lisp 15:52:15 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:16 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 15:52:32 abunchofdollarsi: closures is an existing solution 15:52:46 and you would have to use setf inside the closure anyways. 15:52:59 But otherwise, closures are useful. 15:53:28 nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has joined #lisp 15:53:36 Can it be done without some type of opaque language primitive? 15:54:03 There's no opaque language primitive in lisp. 15:54:15 abunchofdollarsi: what do you really want to do? 15:54:16 So I should like at what setf does. 15:54:31 I'm just trying to understand how updating while preserving identity works. 15:54:35 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 15:54:38 Yes, setf is the uniformised mutator for places. 15:54:43 setf is merely a macro to call specific accessors 15:55:11 abunchofdollarsi: what do you mean, how it works? there's a bunch of bytes in memory, you just change them 15:55:33 Right; but that's not how it looks from common lisp land right? Because such would be opaque. 15:56:04 <|3b|> "identity" in CL doesn't depend on contents 15:56:09 *beach* thinks abunchofdollarsi is confused. 15:56:11 it looks like that to me 15:56:13 I am. 15:56:21 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:27 all rplaca and rplacd do is just modify memory 15:56:31 and so on 15:56:54 abunchofdollarsi: There is nothing about setf that preserves identity. 15:57:08 or that breaks it. 15:57:22 Right; because it's just an interface. 15:57:24 abunchofdollarsi: (let ((x 10)) (setf x 20) ...) The identity of 10 and 20 are different. 15:57:24 you may say it modifies intergalactic astral projections of bytes, but i'm not sure it would help you 15:57:29 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 15:57:34 (let ((x (make-string 3)) (y x)) (setf (aref x 0) #\a) (eq x y)) --> T 15:58:14 The identity of the string is preserved by (setf aref). 15:58:35 The implementation of all types in common lisp are not opaque? 15:58:47 what's opaque? 15:59:00 abunchofdollarsi: it's irrelevant. 15:59:14 Some types are opaque some are not. Depends on the implementation. 15:59:16 *|3b|* actually can't think of anything that changes "identity" in CL, you can substitute 1 object for another, but both retain their identity 15:59:38 a moving GC changes identity 15:59:48 but all the references are updated too 15:59:53 <|3b|> not at the CL level though 15:59:59 There's even change-class that preserves identity of objects while changing their type! 16:00:02 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:25 When I do 'rplaca" on a cons cell; does the rplaca do the C memcpy or does the runtime? 16:00:41 <|3b|> and that assumes "identity" is defined in terms of memory location (which is probably true at an implementation level, but not required) 16:00:46 what rplaca does is to mutate the car of the cons cell. 16:00:51 Right. 16:00:54 it replaces the car with a new value. 16:00:54 why would it do memcpy? 16:01:05 <|3b|> rplaca probably only changes 1 machine word, no memcpy needed 16:01:18 But does the rplaca depend on some underlying implementation of a cons cell in order to do it? 16:01:28 (let ((k (cons a d))) (rplaca k b) (assert (eql (car k) b))) ; this is the definition of rplaca. 16:01:38 <|3b|> and how it works is entirely implementation dependent, and possibly depends on settings within the implementation, and whether it is compiled or not, etc 16:01:45 of course it does, how else would it work without knowing how to do its job? 16:01:55 Oh, and: (let ((k (cons a d))) (let ((r (rplaca k b))) (assert (and (eql (car k) b) (eql r k))))) 16:02:00 that's all you need to know about rplaca. 16:02:25 <|3b|> it could call some function in assembly or c (or whatever implementation language), it could be a lisp function, it could be compiled directly to machine code inline, etc 16:02:29 So I can't implement an identity preserving mutator without some underlying meaning of 'identity'? 16:02:44 |3b|: you cannot know that rplaca changes only one word of memory. 16:02:46 Let me read some source code; I find it difficult to ask this question. 16:02:54 <|3b|> pjb: "probably" 16:02:56 For all you know, it could change mega bytes of memory thru the whole internet. 16:02:59 it figures, i have no idea what you're asking 16:03:04 It probably does, when you use an OODB. 16:03:07 <|3b|> pjb: and how many implementations do that? 16:03:26 if you're trying to implement something, no matter what, you do indeed need to build it on top of something 16:03:37 <|3b|> abunchofdollarsi: you can't change "identity" in CL the way CL defines "identity" 16:03:58 <|3b|> abunchofdollarsi: so if you mean some other definition, specifying it would be helpful 16:04:03 be it raw machine code, functions built on top of them, or logical gates 16:04:14 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@87.68.150.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:04:15 <|3b|> CL defines "identity" as EQ 16:05:13 logical gates themselves are built from atoms, atoms are built from other elementary particles, and so on 16:08:10 |3b|: wrong. 16:08:14 CL defines identity as EQL. 16:08:22 (eq 1 1) --> nil; possibly. 16:08:30 <|3b|> right, numbers and characters don't have identity 16:08:47 <|3b|> chls glossary/identical 16:08:49 they have identity, but it's not linked to their address. 16:08:58 <|3b|> clhs glossary/identical 16:08:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_i.htm#identical 16:09:14 all right. 16:09:18 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:18:49 Okay so I am looking at some cl implementation code. 16:19:10 good idea 16:20:25 In ecl/src/c/list.d I see cl_cons(...) which is implemented in C and I see a similar thing at clisp/src/list.d 16:21:14 It makes sense to me how I could build identity preserving mutation on top of these C primitives; because I have access to their underlying representations. 16:21:28 So if I want to mutate it, I just change something at some address. 16:21:42 And the cl runtime can expose functions which do exactly that. 16:21:51 you don't have to use C, you can use machine code directly 16:21:56 Sure. 16:22:00 That also makes sense. 16:22:04 but it's still not clear what you're asking 16:22:11 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:22:18 abunchofdollarsi: why would you want or need to do such a thing? CL already provides all the mutators needed! 16:22:31 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22:33 this doesn't make sense at all. 16:22:35 everything is implemented by somehow invoking the underlying CPU instructions, what's the big revelation here? 16:22:40 Yes I just want to understand how they work or how they could work. 16:22:41 No. 16:23:00 It's hard to ask because I don't exactly understand what it is; just that something is unclear in my mental image of mutators. 16:23:15 there's no such thing as a mutator 16:23:20 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:23 nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-58-87.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:23:23 it's no different than any other piece of code 16:24:34 nilsi_ [~nilsi@178.73.196.35] has joined #lisp 16:24:41 -!- rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:25:37 What's the difference between DEFSETF/DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER and (defun (setf foo) ...)? 16:25:57 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:26:01 hitecnologys: the former are macros, the latter is a function 16:26:16 and there is a different precedence between them 16:26:31 <|3b|> mostly ease of use and power 16:26:39 hitecnologys: you can do with define-setf-expander, things that you can't do with the others. But you very rarely need to do them. 16:27:06 stassats: yeah, I know that, but what's the practical difference? Is there any? 16:27:17 In practice, none. 16:27:28 pjb: can you give some examples of code where I may need d-s-e? 16:27:34 <|3b|> handling multiple values i think is one example 16:27:40 hitecnologys: you can't implement modifications of the lexical environment with setf-functions 16:27:41 hitecnologys: check cll, I wrote a post about it. 16:27:51 pjb: OK 16:28:05 stassats: I see. 16:28:05 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:13 <|3b|> also, you can define (setf foo) after expanding (setf (foo ...) ...) and have it work, unlike the other forms 16:28:18 <|3b|> not that doing so is a good idea 16:29:06 That's a good point :-) 16:29:21 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-58-87.inter.net.il] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 16:29:25 So, the real difference is that DEFSETF and stuff behave mostly like a macro and set-functions behave like a function? 16:29:59 they are macros and functions 16:30:46 How is this possible? 16:30:50 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:30:56 what is? 16:31:09 hitecnologys: they're not the same thing at all! 16:31:32 (defun (setf foo) ) defines a function that is called when you write (setf (foo ) ). 16:31:48 stassats: ah, I thought you meant they are both macros and functions. Something is wrong with my parser today. 16:31:57 Can I implement mutation without a more primitive mutator? 16:32:17 abunchofdollarsi: you can't implement anything without something in the first place 16:32:24 short of creating a big-bang 16:32:47 Right; but provided I have other things just not mutation, can I implement mutation? 16:32:53 OK, thank you stassats, pjb and |3b|. 16:33:03 abunchofdollarsi: define mutation and why is it so special? 16:33:03 The short form (defsetf foo setfoo) installs an existing function setfoo in a table of setf to be called when you write (setf (foo ) ) 16:33:04 Which I suppose is something like mutation on purely functional primitives. 16:33:16 nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-58-87.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:33:43 abunchofdollarsi: yes, you can implement mutation without mutation. That's what functional programmers do everyday with monads. 16:33:44 every instruction of conventional CPUs performs modifies state 16:33:50 except for NOPs 16:34:06 beach: OK, I should be able to get back to you in 15-20 minutes 16:34:08 NOP modify the program counter. 16:34:13 stassats: no, they mutate cache. 16:34:37 By mutation I mean: I have an object that has an identity (ie it is recognized as such by other language constructs), I can change some data associated with this identity, and my other language constructs will see that this identity has no data associated with it. 16:35:03 this is meaningless, but yes. 16:35:03 *|3b|* votes to define the entire universe as functional (producing a new copy every quantum of time), so there is no mutation anywhere 16:35:17 that's why there are multiple universe. 16:35:35 s/no/new 16:35:37 abunchofdollarsi: if you wish, you make a list of attributes of an object 16:35:56 appending to a list will override previous attributes 16:35:59 |3b|: technically, it is functional. You can't prove it's not! 16:36:46 abunchofdollarsi: that will have no mutation 16:36:53 Yes I now see that there are ways to implement mutation without a more primitive mutator. 16:36:56 Yes thanks. 16:37:06 abunchofdollarsi: (defun aset (a i v) (lambda (j) (if (= i j) v (funcall a j)))) ; this defines the mutator for an array without using mutation. 16:37:34 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:37:37 (funcall (aset (lambda (j) (error "Invalid index ~A" j)) 1 42) 1) --> 42 16:37:49 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:40:25 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40:45 I see. 16:42:35 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 16:42:50 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 16:43:36 Where does LOCAL-TIME pull its timezone info from? My machine is currently running on CET (17:43), yet LOCAL-TIME:NOW generates a timestamp for CEST (18:43). 16:43:49 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:44:17 get-universal-time returns a time zone. Otherwise you can get TZ with implementation dependant getenv functions. 16:44:57 So I should make a local-time timestamp using get-universal-time instead? 16:45:26 hello. 16:45:41 is it true (and still up-to-date) that ECL is not maintained anymore? 16:45:48 no 16:46:06 there are more maintainers than ever before 16:46:22 stassats: well, the last entry of ecls.sourceforge.net is ... from 2012 16:46:47 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:47:01 -!- nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-58-87.inter.net.il] has left #lisp 16:47:08 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB1E01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:47:13 Shinmera: local-time zoneinfo files are 5 years old 16:47:39 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has left #lisp 16:47:44 stassats: Ah... anything I can do about that? 16:48:02 you can shame dlowe 16:48:38 stassats: well, I want to write a chat client using libpurple. but I do not want to write a cffi-binding, and the simple ffi from ECL would be nice. 16:48:48 stassats: and so ECL seems like the best choice. 16:49:19 Shinmera: you can maintain them? 16:49:40 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@46.233.240.28] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:49:51 Ask your representative to make a law to change time zone, soyou have a change to maintain in zoneinfo files. 16:50:01 Eg. you could ask to remove DST? 16:50:31 the point is, I would probably have to use cl-gtk2 or something. 16:50:35 I'd ask for the complete removal of timezones, but I don't think politics moves fast enough for me. 16:50:40 to get the gobject-stuff 16:50:53 -!- abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:44 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:54:28 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB1E01.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:55:05 straycat [~straycat@cpc65057-bagu12-2-0-cust811.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 17:01:06 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-28-60.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:01:41 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-91-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:01 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:03:28 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 17:04:58 rabite [~rabite@4chan.fm] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:12:20 mathrick: We need to do this some other time. I should go spend time with my family. 17:14:35 -!- sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:15:28 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:16:52 is there a more idiomatic way to write (cdr (assoc item alist)) ? 17:17:41 <_death> alexandria:assoc-value 17:18:11 beach: ah, alright. I can start collecting the issues, but the question is, would you rather have them in the documentation, or as github issues perhaps? 17:18:20 (cdr (assoc item alist)) is shorter than (alexandria:assoc-value item alist) 17:18:43 yeah, and less idiomatic I would say, for not being part of the standard 17:18:53 if that's the idiomatic way I can certainly continue living with it 17:18:55 <_death> stassats: I tend to count lisp objects rather than characters 17:18:58 it just feels very strange 17:19:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:19:38 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:21:58 -!- leoc [~leoc.git@p5DDBBFFD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:06 -!- ch077179 [~ch077179@unaffiliated/ch077179] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:23:16 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:23:50 zxq9 [~ceverett@209.119.94.254] has joined #lisp 17:25:17 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 17:29:25 -!- _death is now known as adeht 17:33:23 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:26 STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.12] has joined #lisp 17:38:30 -!- STilda [~kvirc@188.162.167.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:38:55 guyal [~anonymous@216.239.55.194] has joined #lisp 17:44:01 mc40 [~mc@dab-rcn1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:13 k0001 [~k0001@host238.190-138-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:45:35 amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 17:45:45 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:46:31 -!- mc40 [~mc@dab-rcn1-h-1-5.dab.02.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:47:05 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@178.73.196.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:47:59 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:49:01 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.166.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:51:54 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 17:52:10 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53:27 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:20 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:25 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:55:19 mc40 [~mc@dab-rcn1-h-1-7.dab.02.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:42 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:52 -!- mc40 [~mc@dab-rcn1-h-1-7.dab.02.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:58:07 -!- Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:58:51 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:36 yeah, I probably need some shaming on timezone files 18:00:30 what about using system files? 18:00:37 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:01:19 This was an idea from Attila - he wanted consistency between windows and linux versions of the library 18:01:37 fallback to the local copy 18:01:55 *dlowe* shrugs. 18:02:19 that doesn't really address the issue 18:02:33 well, if you promise to update them promptly, then i don't care 18:02:46 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:02:49 hehe. I think it's fairly easy to point at another directory 18:02:56 I haven't looked at it in a while, though 18:03:34 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 18:03:42 not using local definitions sounds like asking for trouble 18:03:54 the OS is supposed to keep them up to date already 18:03:56 yeah, you just change local-time:*default-timezone-repository-path* 18:06:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~conificat@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:06:45 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/ 18:06:49 are these all builtin functions? 18:07:10 no 18:07:17 it's the wrong specification 18:07:26 tak [~user@KHP059129075208.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:07:33 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:33 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:33 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:07:59 and it's not a specification at all 18:08:09 what do you mean by specification 18:08:18 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:34 look up "specification" in the dictionary, that's what i mean 18:09:43 deadghost: http://tinyurl.com/6o5vos 18:10:01 what's the point of shortening? 18:10:16 so that people will be afraid on clicking on it? 18:10:53 what's the point of nagging? 18:11:15 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 so that you don't shorten urls next time 18:11:26 <|3b|> deadghost: quite a few of those are variables, constants, macros, and other non-function things 18:12:13 <|3b|> deadghost: all of which would be "built in" to a cltl1 implementation if you happened to be able to find one (this channel is about CL, which isn't quite the language described by that book) 18:12:38 Joreji_ [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 18:12:42 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:12 <|3b|> oops, i guess that is cltl2 not cltl1, didn't read closely enough... still not exactly the CL we talk about here though 18:13:54 it even includes series functions there 18:14:11 dim: you should have only one place in your program where you have (cdr (assoc key list)). It's in the functional abstraction for your data structure. 18:14:25 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:28 dim: (defun get-definition (word dictionary) (cdr (assoc word dictionary))) 18:14:34 no he shouldn't 18:14:37 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 18:14:41 dim: in the rest of your program you just use get-definition. 18:15:03 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 18:15:34 stassats: go read a book. eg. sicp. 18:15:47 <|3b|> pjb: you name all your functions too and never use lambda or function composition? 18:16:08 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:10 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 18:16:23 ok so you guys are telling me the lisp used in "common lisp the language" is not "common lisp"? 18:16:41 deadghost: correct 18:16:42 <|3b|> deadghost: CL is based on cltl, but not identical 18:16:45 prolly not the current one 18:16:52 deadghost: it's a snapshot of common lisp at some point in time 18:16:55 deadghost: there's very few differences. 18:17:16 the hardcopy I have is 20+ yrs old 18:17:23 deadghost: mostly: in cltl lambda is not a macro, and loop has a return keyword. 18:17:46 it could be looked at as a conserved core though, it's a nice book 18:17:46 |3b|: that's not the point. go read sicp you too. 18:17:46 mostly? 18:18:16 and loop has a RETURN keyword 18:18:25 pjb, I think you were the one that recommended gentle to me a few days ago 18:18:27 CrazyEddy [~polysyllo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:18:45 I'm halfway through and thinking about what to read next 18:18:57 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 18:18:58 minion: please tell deadghost about PCL 18:18:59 deadghost: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:19:15 <|3b|> pjb: so if i convert a hash table to an alist just so i can sort it, i need to define a whole API to access that alist instead of using CDR and ASSOC? 18:19:16 -!- guyal [~anonymous@216.239.55.194] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 18:19:31 stassats: right. I meant after finally. (loop for i below 10 finally return 42) worked, but not anymore in CL. 18:19:57 |3b|: don't be silly. 18:20:04 should list all the difference and ask "what about x?" about them 18:20:06 ? 18:20:27 deadghost: well, perhaps next you should write some lisp programs ;-) 18:20:43 what about environment functions? what about COMMONP function? 18:20:49 guyal [~anonymous@216.239.55.194] has joined #lisp 18:20:53 deadghost: then you could read PAIP or SICP or LiSP or some other good lisp book. 18:21:13 there's a book called LiSP? 18:21:20 paip and sicp are both on my reading list 18:21:30 Lisp in Small Pieces http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/Books/LiSP-2ndEdition-2006Dec11.tgz 18:21:40 oh that one 18:22:31 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:40 -!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:22:53 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:23:01 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:23:46 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:24:45 <|3b|> clhs a.1 18:24:45 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for a.1. 18:25:02 <|3b|> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/27_a.htm 18:25:21 <|3b|> ^ stuff removed from cltl 18:25:47 that's not from cltl2, is it? 18:26:07 i don't see generic-flet list there 18:26:13 <|3b|> dunno 18:26:36 <|3b|> doesn't list changes and additions anyway though 18:26:40 cltl2 was never an official part of the standardization process, so i guess they wouldn't include it 18:26:40 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for was never an official part of the standardization process, so i guess they wouldn't include it. 18:26:45 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:17 -!- guyal [~anonymous@216.239.55.194] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 18:29:17 anyhow, there's much more difference than "mostly: in cltl lambda is not a macro, and loop has a return keyword." 18:30:43 cltl2 has the best reference for format directives, that i have seen so far though 18:30:43 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for has the best reference for format directives, that i have seen so far though. 18:35:40 xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:16 -!- adam789654123 [~user@c-68-37-85-13.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:00 guyal [~anonymous@216.239.55.194] has joined #lisp 18:40:50 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:41:29 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-91-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:13 -!- Joreji_ [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:43:02 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-!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56:49 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:57:05 francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:07 kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 18:58:20 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-79.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:59:44 pjb: sometimes the right data structure abstraction is named an alist 19:00:31 pjb: also the standard is a building block, not a constraint 19:02:28 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 19:04:55 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:04:56 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 19:05:02 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@static-217-133-17-91.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:05:33 -!- amaron [~amaron@cable-178-148-241-98.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:06:36 didi 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[~cory@75-22-101-128.lightspeed.dblnoh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:30 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.41.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:46 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:48 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:48 dim: if you are dealing with cons cells, then (cdr (assoc )) should not feel strange. If it feels strange, it's probably because you've not abstracted it away. 19:59:38 dim: of course, everything inside is only atoms and electrons. Turing machines. So we don't need those considerations. But until you have the brain capacity to deal with computing at the level of the atoms (or even at the level of the logic gates), you need rules of thumb like that. feels strange -> abstract away, ie. find the word that doesn't feel strange, define it and use it instead of the thing that feels strange. 20:00:27 what I think feels strange is the lack of an assoc variant that only returns the cdr 20:00:47 I mean, I'm yet to have a case where I want to use assoc and still need the car of the result 20:03:51 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 i used it many times 20:08:02 ok, that means it shouldn't feel so weird to me then, maybe 20:08:41 you can't modify the value if it doesn't give you the whole cons 20:09:19 (let ((cons (assoc ...))) (if cons (incf (cdr cons)) (push (cons x 0) alist))) 20:09:24 for what is worth, lispworks has that variant: cdr-assoc 20:11:23 -!- k3VB6u4d [k3VB6u4d@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-scwhnbxzjezmbnno] has quit [Quit: IRCRelay - http://ircrelay.com] 20:12:35 k3VB6u4d [k3VB6u4d@gateway/shell/ircrelay.com/x-gcnrobrbboxxrsin] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 I only used assoc for read-only searches, yeah 20:13:21 k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 when doing read-write, I often build some level of abstraction, usually using a list of struct, so that I have accessors defined for me 20:13:54 but, plists have it easier: (incf (getf plist x 0)) 20:15:23 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 20:15:45 cricri [~quassel@201-50-165-215.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:15:47 -!- antonv is now known as Guest73855 20:16:03 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 20:16:35 -!- cricri_ [~quassel@201-50-165-215.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:18:42 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:31 -!- Guest73855 [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:19:35 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 20:22:57 heddwch [~yoshi@76.8.3.189] has joined #lisp 20:23:40 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:26:18 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:11 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:27:36 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 20:27:49 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:54 lc0dd0cl2 [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:29:06 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 20:29:30 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:33:20 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:33:40 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35:23 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:33 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:41:19 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 20:42:35 I love CL. Had a idea about a new very interesting feature for pgloader, though about it a little, just happened to be a couple hours hack 20:43:35 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 20:44:09 ryuslash [~user@78-21-108-183.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:45:31 a couple of hours! /me is bashing his head against deadlocks on windows for half a day 20:46:35 Only on Windows? 20:46:47 yes 20:47:15 That seems odd, but I'm a newb, so 20:47:46 well, it's a bug in SBCL threading itself 20:48:44 Ah, okay. Sorry, I've nothing useful to add lol 20:49:02 -!- zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:49:36 and i'm ready to inflict some pain to the person who added threads for windows 20:49:47 -!- dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:53 Why? 20:50:18 "let's write a second definition of this function in a .h file, mark it as inline and use #define normal_definition inlined_defintion" 20:51:17 ... lol Gotta love abuse of CPP. Most C code is unreadable for me without a week or so of cuddling with it. 20:51:20 and M-. of course will go to the definition which is not used 20:51:31 alex______ [~quassel@84.54.121.99] has joined #lisp 20:52:08 threading is hard, what I did in a couple hours was adding a pretty well defined piece of user level feature, using lots of existing code 20:53:57 I will build pgloader.exe for windows some days and I'm using threads, if you need some threaded code to play with 20:54:08 I'm just here to lurk and learn from any conversations that might theoretically happen lol I had to look up what pgloader was. 20:54:12 nothing involved, no shared state and locks etc, tho 20:54:48 dim: believe me, i don't need any more threads 20:54:50 well the only thing pgloader has to do with CL is that it's written in CL, other than that it's all about loading data in POstgreSQL 20:54:57 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 20:55:01 i can crash it in my sleep 20:55:08 stassats: hehe. no test case needed to check you didn't break random use cases? 20:55:14 oh. ok. 20:55:19 dim: That'd be what I found =p 20:55:32 so when I read that SBCL on windows was fine, I was misguided? 20:55:37 wenshan [~user@115-64-180-246.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 20:55:52 on windows is fine is somewhat misguided, usually. 20:55:54 you were 20:56:03 Not counting heavily popular suites 20:56:20 dim: they are fine if you don't use them much 20:56:35 -!- alex______ [~quassel@84.54.121.99] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - ????????????? ??????. ?????.] 20:56:49 but i think they have only one serious bug, and once i get to the bottom of it, it'll be much more usable 20:57:00 I'm creating basically 2 threads at a time, with a queue to communicate data one-way from one to the other 20:57:09 alex______ [~quassel@84.54.121.99] has joined #lisp 20:57:10 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:57:14 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:57:15 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 20:57:18 What's the bug, btw? 20:57:30 well if you need help, tell me, chances are I won't be able to help, but who knows 20:57:34 Well, its manifestation, obviously 20:57:47 we're having some C code for threading in windows in PostgreSQL, client side and server side 20:57:49 heddwch: two threads consing, one thread spinning => deadlock 20:57:50 -!- alex______ [~quassel@84.54.121.99] has quit [Client Quit] 20:57:57 I might as well be able to point you to how we do it there 20:58:04 although I never had a look yet 20:58:05 bjwr [~quassel@84.54.121.99] has joined #lisp 20:58:32 and well PostgreSQL uses a process based design and mock up fork() in windows somehow 20:58:58 Ah, ok 21:01:48 -!- opt9 [~user@112.187.229.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:01:50 -!- impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177936981.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:02:35 i always find myself with such bugs, where i don't know what's going on, to even pose each hypothesizes takes a lot of time, and it usually involves C or C++ 21:03:05 _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:01 impulse [~impulse@bas3-toronto48-1177936981.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 21:06:02 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:08:42 dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:45 ln` [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 21:09:02 hargettp [~hargettp@c-65-96-162-255.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 francogrex [~user@109.128.96.218] has joined #lisp 21:11:33 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4db4e885.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:12:05 while using with-open-file ... loop for line = (read-line str nil) ... when (condition line) do something with the line-before the current line 21:12:12 -!- ln` [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 21:12:41 Ew lol Have you looked at any other multithreaded code that does run on the windows impl? 21:12:50 how would I store the "line-before" to be able to do something with it 21:13:01 loop for line = ... for previous-line nil then line 21:13:13 ok 21:13:15 (loop for line = ... for previous-line = nil then line ...) 21:13:15 you need AND, not FOR 21:13:35 not if previous-line appears second, IIRC 21:13:36 and? 21:13:48 dim: you can try it and see 21:14:05 francogrex: as in, loop for line = ... and previous-line = nil then line 21:14:09 you're right 21:14:17 and previous line ... yes 21:14:19 (loop for x in '(1 2 3) and y = nil then x collect y) --> (NIL 1 2) 21:14:31 great that's it 21:15:19 in loop, and is to for what let is to let*, if that helps, francogrex 21:15:29 another way is (loop for previous = line for line = (read-line ...)) 21:15:42 parallel assignment rather than serial, so they don't see each other 21:16:01 stassats: don't you need (loop with line ...) first? 21:16:15 -!- francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:16:31 you don't. damn it. I was certain you did. 21:16:32 -!- samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:16:39 (loop for y = x for x in '(1 2 3) collect y) --> (NIL 1 2) 21:17:09 "All variables are initialized in the loop prologue." 21:18:10 aja [~aja@S0106c0c1c0fb433b.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:34 -!- aja is now known as Guest51782 21:19:21 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@150-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:19:22 but even if it didn't, or if somebody read the standard another way, you can could just do = nil then line 21:19:51 yeah 21:20:08 I guess I'm just ready for walking way from the computer tonight 21:21:21 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4db4e885.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:29 this inlining thing really did cost me quite some time 21:23:11 -!- Guest51782 [~aja@S0106c0c1c0fb433b.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPad - http://colloquy.mobi] 21:24:30 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:22 and well PostgreSQL uses a process based design and mock up fork() in windows somehow <-- just as a general note, threads and fork() don't mix, at all 21:26:47 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:26:51 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:27:13 there's no mix in PostgreSQL, but there's no fork() in windows 21:27:27 it's CreateProcess() and I think it's akin to a thread over there 21:27:53 yeah, it's just a general rule. You either fork (however the OS calls it) or thread. Not both 21:27:54 there's fork() in NT but it WinAPI crashes from it 21:28:15 Depends on the flags passed to CreateProcess(), iirc 21:28:22 kind of more like rfork() 21:28:28 mathrick: there's the third option of CreateProcess. Forking as the only way to create processes is an unix thing 21:29:18 stassats: i suppose you thought of it already, but do you get the same problem with akovalenko's version? 21:29:26 p_l: it's just not safe because you can't guarantee what state the threads will be in when you fork, which has all kinds of bad effects 21:30:12 mathrick: yes, just pointing out that on Windows, you can create processes without forking, indeed, you do not fork to create a child process (unless you want to see your WinAPI context crash'n'burn, iirc) 21:30:47 ah, yeah, spawning is acceptable 21:30:55 if it's the *only* thing you do in your fork 21:31:20 Still, Postgres only needs to pass sockets to child processes, which is probably possible in windows without forking 21:31:20 but fork-based concurrency and thread-based concurrency don't go together 21:31:50 mathrick: Android actually mixes those two, in a way 21:31:55 Like llamas and pachyderms 21:33:24 p_l: not really, it uses Linux process model internally, but it's very different than normal userspace code forking after having spawned threads 21:33:49 basically, the only thing you can safely do if you've spawned threads is vfork() + exec() 21:34:00 (or CreateProcess() on windows) 21:34:46 Yes - doesn't mean you can structure the *whole* thing to mix both 21:34:57 and on Windows, forking means BAD THINGS 21:35:02 ITA actually maintained a private fork (heh) of CCL to enforce single-threadedness for that reason 21:35:18 (unless you run under posix.dll, then you have posix fork semantics) 21:35:35 huh, do they even expose fork() without posix? 21:35:42 mathrick: it's a syscall 21:36:10 mathrick: the thing is, it's the userspace that flips over when you fork, that is, WinAPI stuff 21:36:12 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36:16 NTAPI doesn't care 21:37:03 yeah, I mean, does winapi expose fork() without posix.dll? 21:37:28 mathrick: winapi and posix.dll are separate NTAPI clients/environments 21:37:36 an application runs under one or the other 21:38:04 however, the base equivalent of fork() is available directly from kernel 21:38:32 the winapi parts however crash when you have two applications with the same context, at least that's how it was explained to me 21:38:54 (so if you call that syscall from Winapi application, both instances might go boom) 21:39:21 p_l: I know they're two separate environments, which is why I'm surprised to see winapi exposing the fork syscall directly when it clearly doesn't want you to use it 21:39:37 or well, if you use the syscall bypassing winapi, don't do that 21:40:19 Well into undocumented, might-change-next-release behavior if you're calling past the personality lol 21:40:43 heddwch: not exactly. For example, the set of syscalls is frozen since NT6, afaik 21:40:50 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:02 Documented as such, though? 21:41:12 heddwch: some of it is documented. Some is not :) 21:41:26 fwiw, Cygwin does blacker magic 21:41:29 What about calling the fork() syscall from WinAPI? lol 21:41:54 That I don't doubt 21:41:55 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-157.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42:02 -!- hargettp [~hargettp@c-65-96-162-255.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:42:15 heddwch: from WinAPI application, it's a bad idea. However, afaik it's possible to bridge it so that you don't blow yourself up doing so 21:42:32 but that's deep into NTAPI :) 21:42:49 Probably as long as the new process doesn't call WinAPI at all lol 21:42:53 does cygwin run as a winapi, or posix application? 21:42:57 rtoym [~chatzilla@24.130.4.105] has joined #lisp 21:42:57 mathrick: winapi 21:43:07 that's why fork() under cygwin is blackest magic of it all 21:43:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:43:30 why did they even bother with posix.dll 21:43:57 SUA/Interix wasn't so bad 21:44:20 mathrick: political and business reasons. And I had MS version running just fine - if you were willing to work with OpenBSD, it was probably familiar ground of hate ;) 21:44:59 (similar level of API compatibility as OpenBSD has with rest of the world, afaik) 21:45:12 there was also some code to allow interop with winapi 21:45:17 ChibaPet [~ChibaPet@unaffiliated/chibapet] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 More specifically, they needed a posix-compliant product, and you could call yourself compliant if you just stubbed the required methods to return ENOSYS (aka not implemented) 21:45:52 nydel_ [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ofwjcsekaqoaqcwh] has joined #lisp 21:46:22 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-sjjlsinxbsvgpbyl] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:46:27 -!- nydel_ is now known as nydel 21:47:36 still, it worked when I tested it 21:48:37 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.41.191] has joined #lisp 21:48:38 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ofwjcsekaqoaqcwh] has quit [Client Quit] 21:48:46 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-iurlobrqaqnnvkqf] has joined #lisp 21:53:35 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.41.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:54:24 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:24 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 21:54:24 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:54:36 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:54:55 does anyone know if the mcclim wiki is up somewhere? the link from project home hangs 21:55:26 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 21:55:36 -!- ryuslash [~user@78-21-108-183.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:59:16 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 22:00:29 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:00:31 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 22:01:10 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 22:02:03 nydel: not to my knowledge, I believe all sub-clikis got killed at some point 22:02:12 sbcl-internals is similarly gone 22:02:39 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:21 Fade: ping 22:04:27 Speaking of which, does anyone have any hints on good sources for the type of information that was in sbcl-internals? I keep ending up at links to it. 22:04:54 Fade: I'm sorry. I was trying to ping Fare. 22:05:08 heddwch: https://archive.org/ ? 22:05:50 -!- hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:06:27 :) 22:06:40 hyperboreean [~none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 22:07:08 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:20 Okasu: Thanks. For some reason, I didn't think that would work on a wiki. 22:07:32 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.96.218] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:07:39 Still curious about others due to the fact that dead is often out of date 22:08:21 Fade: :$ 22:10:33 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:24 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 22:18:42 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:21:46 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:22:02 heddwch: recently I resurrected some pastes from archive.org. It's stupidly useful (and deeply disappointing when you hit something that indeed wasn't archived) 22:22:29 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 22:22:30 sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 22:23:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:23:52 I use it a lot! Until Okasu mentioned it, I for some reason discounted using it for a dynamic source without trying it 22:25:09 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:28:57 -!- CrazyEddy [~polysyllo@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:28:57 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:29:45 a4343 [~a4343@ip68-4-157-90.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:48 Hello. Could anyone please tell me what is the type of data tree used for say a directory tree? I mean what type of data tree is a directory tree 22:30:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:52 refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 22:32:53 -!- straycat [~straycat@cpc65057-bagu12-2-0-cust811.1-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:35:17 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4db4e885.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:36:01 ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has joined #lisp 22:36:17 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has left #lisp 22:36:33 a4343: it's not any type 22:36:54 you're only allowed to access it via the standard-defined functions, like DIRECTORY 22:36:59 clhs DIRECTORY 22:36:59 directory: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 22:37:45 a4343: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/20_a.htm 22:39:48 a4343: and if you want to do serious portable manipulation of pathnames, you should use either CL-FAD, or UIOP which supersedes CL-FAD 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:42:31 -!- a4343 [~a4343@ip68-4-157-90.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:42:46 clhs 19.2.2.2.3 22:42:47 :UNSPECIFIC as a Component Value: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_bbbc.htm 22:43:31 CrazyEddy [~benching@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 22:44:47 samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:22 ln` [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 22:49:44 hugod [~user@70.24.177.56] has joined #lisp 22:50:22 -!- ln` [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 22:50:24 -!- _schulte1 [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:51:27 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51:59 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 22:53:33 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:54:49 -!- refried_ [~refried_@z69-94-207-36.ips.direcpath.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 22:55:33 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host184.190-136-197.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:56:51 pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #lisp 22:59:59 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:00:32 -!- pnpuff [~ff@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #lisp 23:00:42 prolly what was meant was what is the common data structure type, like "balanced binary tree" 23:02:02 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:04:20 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:05:45 p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:52 -!- danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewi-1] 23:11:55 dfox [~dfox@94.142.237.120] has joined #lisp 23:15:16 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:15:51 -!- p_nathan [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:16:45 -!- sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:20:55 -!- JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22:51 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:25 francis_wolke [~user@c-98-207-155-161.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:04 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:28:30 munge` [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:28:45 -!- munge [~user@cpe-075-178-033-080.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:29:20 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@150-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:30:34 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:31:55 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has joined #lisp 23:32:56 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #lisp 23:33:29 -!- brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 23:35:04 brucem [~bmitchene@waywardmonkeys.com] has joined #lisp 23:44:13 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:49:31 nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.41.191] has joined #lisp 23:51:01 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:54:14 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@58.209.41.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]