00:01:18 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 00:02:00 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:21 -!- gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:04:54 -!- Oberon4278 [~dcrooksto@38.113.0.254] has quit [] 00:06:34 -!- lduros` [~user@pool-72-78-80-110.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:20 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:10:00 nydel: australia? 00:10:37 gendl_ [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:46 theAlgorist [~kvirc@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:12:53 hi 00:13:12 hello 00:16:42 mathrick: united states 00:16:46 and yourself? 00:17:09 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:17:10 -!- theAlgorist [~kvirc@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:18:11 nydel: denmark 00:18:31 I guess it still qualifies as "day" in the US, though I'd really have used evening 00:19:55 theAlgorist [~theAlgori@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:20:03 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:20:29 grr, anyone seen sbcl print unused-variable style warnings when using maximize? 00:20:48 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 00:20:49 -!- gendl_ is now known as gendl 00:20:50 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:20:56 The variable #:LOOP-MAXMIN-FLAG-2093 is defined but never used. The variable #:LOOP-MAXMIN-TEMP-2092 is defined but never used. The variable #:LOOP-MAXMIN-2091 is defined but never used. 00:21:14 maximize in what context? 00:21:17 LOOP I take it? 00:21:30 yeah, sorry, thought I said LOOP 00:22:05 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:22:08 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host130.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:22:18 am I not allowed to have two maximize clauses? 00:22:45 what's the code? 00:23:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139934 00:24:21 I should probably move the first maximize out of the loop 00:24:25 since it's invarient 00:24:30 *invariant 00:24:54 my guess is probably not, because you need to name the distinct maximisations somehow, and LOOP doesn't let you do that, as far as I'm aware 00:25:04 *mathrick* plugs in ITERATE yet again 00:25:06 (max foo (loop))... 00:25:07 or maybe maximize (max...) 00:25:21 mathrick: maximize form into 00:25:28 Bike: in LOOP? 00:25:34 yep 00:25:38 because it's how it works in ITER 00:25:40 ah 00:25:41 alright then 00:25:46 pulling the loop-invariant case out of the loop fixed 00:25:47 almost like one's based on the other, huh. 00:25:56 I know, what are the odds! 00:26:07 jasom: well, the way you had it one of the maximizations just disappears. 00:26:12 Bike: seriously though, ITERs maximisation clauses are more expressive 00:26:27 jasom: you'd have to do maximize a into foo maximize b into bar finally (return (values a b)) 00:26:48 jasom: or well, i'm not sure what you expect that code to do. sum them? 00:26:51 Bike: seriously? 00:27:00 Bike: I expect it to be the maximum of all maximize clauses 00:27:17 can you only have one maximize clause per iteration? 00:27:32 I am not sure that you can do that with loop 00:27:57 jasom: how'd it even work? 00:28:11 probably it just returned the second maximization 00:28:14 LOOP cannot possibly know how to combine things 00:28:43 you can do maximize (max (font-measure "TkHeadingFont" (nth n header)) (font-measure "TkTextFont" (nth n row))) then, which doesn't look great 00:28:43 I know I've had more than one collect in a loop before and had it work 00:29:05 yes, because collect has a well-defined meaning in this case 00:29:05 though perhaps no more than one per iteration 00:29:10 you're just appending things 00:29:19 mathrick: and with maximize you're just maximizing things 00:29:26 I guess 00:30:09 Bike: maximize 1 into row maximize 2 into header finally return (max row header) 00:30:16 probably clearer 00:30:26 I just pulled it out since it's loop-invariant 00:30:38 actually ITER might support that 00:30:52 Hm... looking at the macroexpansion, it /does/ maximize them both into the same variable. 00:31:19 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 00:31:41 it probably figured out it was loop invariant and eliminated the usage of the temps? 00:32:06 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:32:13 I don't think the macroexpansion does that much analysis. 00:32:17 It appeared to do what I wanted (i.e. the result was the max of all of them) 00:32:36 Yeah, that's what it's doing. 00:32:36 Bike: macroexpansion doesn't, but aren't source-transfoms done before unused variable warnings? 00:32:52 The macroexpansion doesn't use the variables. 00:32:53 e.g. if I use a variable only in dead code I get unused variable warnings 00:32:57 on further thought, it's perfectly sensible to have to maximise clauses and it should work 00:33:13 lemme try it in some other implementations real quick. 00:33:27 after all it's just (setf #:maxval (max #:maxval expr)) 00:33:57 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 00:34:12 right, ccl uses the same loop implementation so it has the same warnings, dunno why i didn't expect that. 00:34:18 haha, ccl gives the same warning 00:34:28 oh, I didn't know they shared loop implementation 00:34:40 Yeah, they're both a monster Xerox built. 00:35:14 clisp and ecl both are fine with it 00:35:18 -!- Posterdati [~kvirc@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 00:35:23 clhs 6.1.3 00:35:23 Value Accumulation Clauses: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_ac.htm 00:35:38 Posterdati [~kvirc@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:35:39 I'm not sure if this covers multiple clauses but... well, i don't know, your wanted behavior seems reasonable. 00:35:57 it's unclear if you can only use one clause per iteration from the spec 00:36:08 And they can both do multiple sums, collects, etc... 00:36:14 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:36:15 but it should certainly be able to do (loop if foo collect x else collect y) 00:36:29 ITER's (finding val maximizing expr) is handy 00:36:44 I've used it a few times, and it's annoying to work around if you don't have it 00:37:20 just a maximize into with a compare, no? 00:38:30 jasom: it looks like they can all handle multiple sums, collects, and appends. given that i think i'd file a bug with sbcl and ccl just because it would be nice rather than a spec thing 00:38:30 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-215.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:48 thanks 00:38:56 jasom: unsure what you mean by that 00:39:10 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 00:39:21 but no, maximize into loses the val, it only looks at the expr's result 00:39:52 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:40:36 mathrick: with result = nil for val = expr maximize val into max when (= val max) do (setf result val) finally (return val) 00:40:52 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 00:41:25 It's not as clear and concise as finding, but not terrible either 00:41:26 jasom: yes, that'd be the annoying part 00:41:45 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:42:41 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 00:42:51 k0001 [~k0001@host130.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:43:05 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-215.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:43:17 done_the_dew [~user@2601:1:bf00:850:212:f0ff:fe87:2295] has joined #lisp 00:43:39 most loopish way to add it would be allowing someting like maximize (cons val expr) using (maximize-key #'cdr) 00:43:43 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:43:44 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 00:44:43 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.80] has joined #lisp 00:45:54 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 00:45:56 jasom: I guess, but that might explode amusingly if you're looping over a lot of data due to consing 00:47:21 -!- bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:47:37 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0b785d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:22 mathrick: depends on allocation and gc strategy 00:49:27 AFAICT sbcl takes no performance hit for generating huge amounts of extremely short-lived garbage 00:49:29 obviously, but more GC rarely results in faster code 00:49:54 oh it does, if you hit just the right patterns 00:50:06 -!- nha [~prefect@koln-4d0b5390.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:50:44 there were some related bugs fixed (though honestly, I think they were just partially mitigated) where it'd sometimes promote garbage to higher gen if you timed it just right 00:51:20 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:53:25 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:26 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:53:44 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:13 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:54:19 -!- Asgeir [~asgeir@sal63-1-82-243-96-129.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:54:48 In other-news, tclkit+ltk == native-looking gui lisp images with only 2 files 00:55:48 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 00:57:38 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@14-5.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:07 since when does tk look native? 00:58:16 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:58:20 mathrick: since a long time? 00:59:21 the standard, stock tk? 01:00:33 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:00:41 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-147-122.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:01:06 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:01:31 mathrick: well linux default is to look like motif (which is arguably as "native" as any other look on linux, but is ugly) but just switching to "alternative" makes it look fine. On Mac and Win it's looked native at least since the dawn of 8.5 01:01:34 mathrick: It does on platforms other than unices. 01:02:00 mathrick: But I think the default unix look is still slick anyway (at least since 8.5). 01:02:17 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02:51 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 01:03:37 oh, that kind of native. The alt look is meh, but palatable I guess, but "native" has long since come to mean "adopting GTK+ or Qt theme" 01:03:38 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 01:04:11 mathrick: so gnome apps don't look native if you run kde and kde apps don't look native if you run gnome? 01:04:34 jasom: if you have it set up correctly, they do 01:04:43 how does one install a library for sbcl? 01:04:45 qt has a theme which follows gtk+ 01:04:59 minion: tell Klaufir about quicklisp 01:04:59 and kde sets up gtk+ themes to allow them to follow qt as well 01:05:00 quicklisp: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/quicklisp 01:05:15 i know about quicklist, just installed it 01:05:31 then do (ql:quickload library) 01:05:39 Klaufir: then http://quicklisp.org has enough to get you started 01:05:46 (ql:quickload "iolib") 01:05:52 then halfway through the install 01:06:00 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:06:00 i get undecipherable errors 01:06:14 Klaufir: then don't ask "how to install a library" 01:06:17 paste.lisp.org 01:06:26 Klaufir: report to #iolib but they'll probably tell you you aren't using yesterday's build of sbcl so you need to upgrade 01:06:31 -!- harish_ [~harish@175.156.197.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:06:35 and yes, state your problems clearly 01:06:38 instead say "I get errors when I try to quicklisp iolib, here's the pastebin with errors" 01:06:45 iolib wants really new sbcl installed 01:07:04 mathrick: well, i have no idea how people install packages 01:07:11 which means it probably doesn't work with the sbcl installed by your OSes package manager 01:07:16 they do quickload 01:07:21 Klaufir: that still doesn't change the fact it's *not* your problem 01:07:29 if you paste the errors, which are iolib-specific, we might be able to help 01:07:35 mathrick: no, that is my problem. there are other packages, not on quicklist 01:07:39 your problem is that the install method you chose fails with specific errors, not that you don't know at all 01:07:48 those are separate issues 01:07:50 erikc [~erikc@CPE78cd8e65fa60-CM78cd8e65fa5d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:54 also it's quicklisp, not quicklist 01:07:55 Klaufir: for packages not in quicklisp, I install to ~/src/lisp 01:08:21 Klaufir: if you ask bad questions, you won't get good answers. It's in your own interest to learn to ask questions properly 01:08:28 ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/projects.conf <- (:tree "/export/jmiller/home/src/lisp") 01:08:54 how is it unfathomable, that i am interested in how people do it generally AND also in how people to it specifically for iolib 01:09:09 damn smug attitude 01:09:11 -!- Klaufir [~admin@109.232.224.97] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:09:15 pffft 01:09:31 another poor newb so offended by our smugness 01:09:52 *mathrick* makes a mark on his LART 01:09:59 lart? 01:10:00 -!- d4gg4d_ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rwwnfxgzipzjhwkh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:10:15 http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/L/LART.html 01:10:45 generally a stick to hit people with 01:13:42 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:15:09 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9FE28.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:16:38 -!- seangrove [~user@2600:1010:b003:a1ab:d4fc:3880:9f70:dd83] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 01:16:46 I just know what "smug" means. IRC is honestly a good place to learn English :) 01:17:20 seangrove [~user@c-71-202-222-215.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:54 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:18:05 zRecursive: while we're at it, if you mean you didn't know before but know now, the proper English would be "I just learnt" :) 01:18:38 (also americans would say "learned", but don't listen to them. It's properly "learnt") 01:20:50 also idiomatic would be "Now I know what smug means" 01:22:19 mathrick: i honestly donot know it before 01:22:22 "I have met the smugness, and it is us" 01:22:30 refried__ [~refried_@frontend.gtri.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 01:23:04 zRecursive: you are from Guangdong? 01:23:19 jasom: how does you know it ? 01:23:23 zRecursive: yes, I was just saying that idiomatic English would be to say "I just learnt", or as jasom says, "I now know". Just helping you with your English 01:23:26 zRecursive: your IP address 01:24:09 jasom: how do you know my IP address from IRC ? i am using ERC 01:24:22 zRecursive: and "didn't know it before". Past tenses (ie. don't vs. didn't) will probably be a problem for you for a long time, as it's something Chinese lacks 01:24:31 -!- refried__ [~refried_@frontend.gtri.gatech.edu] has left #lisp 01:24:38 most Chinese people I know struggle with it, at least occasionally 01:24:41 zRecursive: IP address is published on most IRC servers 01:25:30 jasom: can you see infomation from IRC servers ? 01:25:33 whatever IP you connect from is listed in your user information 01:25:38 zRecursive: /whois jasom 01:25:43 zRecursive: /whois jasom 01:25:54 or /who 01:26:03 great 01:26:40 jasom: yeah, i am from Guangdong 01:27:31 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:27:50 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:28:08 mathrick: Is "didn't know it before" wrong ? 01:28:16 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 01:28:18 zRecursive: that's correct 01:28:24 zRecursive: it's correct 01:28:44 oh 01:29:22 mathrick: i honestly donot know it before <-- you wrote "donot" here, which I was correcting to "didn't" 01:29:39 i see now 01:29:43 "do not know before" is incorrect "did not know before" (or "didn't know before") are correct 01:29:57 thx 01:30:01 np 01:30:34 I've graded english papers here in the US, and teenagers mix case all the time in their papers, so being a native speaker only helps so much... 01:33:19 ikki [~ikki@201.141.91.216] has joined #lisp 01:33:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:31 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:35 harish_ [~harish@119.234.0.34] has joined #lisp 01:35:23 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:35:35 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:54 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:42:59 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:44:28 Is it possible to give slime/emacs hints about macros you've written so it can give context information? 01:45:52 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:45:52 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host130.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:46:07 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 01:49:36 -!- harish_ [~harish@119.234.0.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:49:57 -!- seangrove [~user@c-71-202-222-215.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 01:50:28 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 01:53:53 depends on what you mean by "context information". It's possible, though somewhat annoying, to give special indentation hints 01:53:58 normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-064-097.mycingular.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:30 it should be picking them up already for most macros, you might also force a refresh of cached indent hints if you redefine a previous function to a macro or vice versa 01:54:33 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 01:54:37 okay, thanks 01:55:25 jasom: if you have slime and eldoc-mode running, it should also be showing the lambda lists and friends 01:55:54 if you need more info, then you'd do well to describe what you'd like :) 01:57:04 -!- cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:57:04 -!- cheryllium [~chatzilla@128.237.174.71] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57:20 cgore [~cgore@cgore.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:27 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:01:20 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 02:01:33 akersof [~akersof@unaffiliated/zoroaster] has joined #lisp 02:03:50 -!- theAlgorist [~theAlgori@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04:03 hello, i am totally new in lisp 02:04:23 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:24 i would like to start playing with lisp, but i don't know really know where to start? 02:04:36 should i install common lisp? 02:07:50 akersof: What is it you want to achieve? 02:08:17 loke, i just want to start programming with lisp :) 02:08:30 akersof: Do you have previous programming experience? 02:08:36 loke, i installed clisp, i think it is the "standard" interpreter? 02:08:41 loke, yes a lot 02:08:50 loke, C, asm, and python 02:08:58 akersof: It's not. But it's the one that is easiest to install. 02:09:07 and a bit of a lot of web stuff 02:09:12 Do you have experience using Emacs? 02:09:18 loke, never 02:09:25 loke, i use vim 02:09:52 loke, i read that we could lisp with emacs 02:10:18 It's easier with emacs. But I think there's plugins or stuff for vim too. 02:10:28 oh 02:10:47 actually i tought that i will write lisp program on vim 02:11:00 and just execute them on the command line with clisp myprogram.lisp 02:11:11 akersof: There is something called SlimV I bleieve, which is slime for Vim 02:11:20 However, I have no idea how well it works. 02:11:23 nice 02:11:33 loke, why are y ou asking this? 02:11:53 Because it's a lot easier and friendly with emacs (if I may answer). 02:11:56 akersof: This stuff is more important in Lisp than many other langiages, since you tend to develop (write code, recompiling functions, etc) in a running program 02:12:13 oh ok 02:12:56 then you advice me to install emacs 02:13:04 and start programing lisp with it 02:13:04 ? 02:13:12 Well, you should take a look at SlimV first. 02:13:17 akersof: For web development, since you have some experience there, when using Lisp, you would simply start the Lisp process. It would load and compile all the code (includign the web server itself) and it'll be running continously. When you write a new function, you simply compile it on the fly into the running program. 02:13:44 Or what ever has been wrote for vim and lisp. 02:13:48 akersof: That's why you need a development environment that hooks into a process. You normally do not follow the edit->compile->execute cycle 02:14:13 ah ok 02:14:16 i understnad 02:14:25 then i will use emacs 02:14:37 (getting tired of 10 years using vim anyway) 02:14:43 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@123.208.83.11] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 02:14:52 akersof: As much of an Emacs fan as I am, I'd agree with Zagaba. Try SlimV first, since learning Lisp _and_ Emacs at the same time will be annnoying. 02:15:03 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:15:12 _however_ Emacs is pretty awesume, but has a high learning curve 02:15:25 i understand what you mean 02:15:29 ASau` [~user@p54AFFBA5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:15:53 akersof: Here's the documentation I recommend: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 02:15:53 And since you know vim. If you can get something nice with it. Go ahead. 02:16:04 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF4A7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:16:11 the full book is available online there, and explains Common Lisp from the perspective of someone who already knows programming. 02:16:19 thanks a lot 02:16:25 Anytime. 02:16:32 just to describe why i move arround to lisp 02:16:56 i like to program with less state as possible 02:17:05 with function created on the fly 02:17:09 akersof: Make sure you install Quicklisp as well. It's sort of apt-get for Lisp, to allow you to install libraries with all dependencies etc. I'm not sure if the book explains that 02:17:16 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:41 loke: I'm reading it and it doesn't. 02:17:44 i like metaprograming in fact 02:17:44 loke: PCL predates QLp 02:17:48 QL 02:18:18 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 02:18:19 I love web development in Lisp. The fact that I can work with the running program withou thaving to restart things is very useful. Also, I implemented something similar to Rails in Lisp. The core code to do the dispatching in a rails-like fashion was around 30 lines of code. 02:18:35 sellout-: Yeah. It figured it did. 02:18:40 loke, you web server is then written in lisp to? 02:18:43 your* 02:18:58 akersof: I use Hunchentoot, which is the main web server in Lisp 02:19:03 ah ok 02:19:07 Then I add my own dispatching layer on top of it 02:19:28 i will use my last "noob" question :) 02:19:55 i read a lot about haskell too 02:20:10 Oh, you have a limit of "noob" question? Never heard about that. 02:20:28 hehe it is a kind of "troll" question 02:20:36 the famous troll haskell vs lisp 02:20:47 like perl vs python vs ruby 02:20:48 We generally don't mind answering n00b questions if the recipient of the answers are interested and willing to learn 02:21:02 in fact i need a first language to learn 02:21:13 i can't really learn 2 languages at the same time 02:21:21 in parsing, crawling and reading post 02:21:53 akersof: as far as I know, Haskell is purely functional. And lisp is not really. You can do pure functional in lisp. But you're not forced to. It feels more like a really meta language where you do what you want. 02:22:10 i read that in term of "functional" programing i have to choose between haskell and lisp 02:22:14 SmilV seems to be pretty complete, at least based on what I read on their web page 02:22:25 akersof: I think you could do much worse than trying it. 02:22:40 akersof: Lisp isn't really a "functional language" 02:22:58 akersof: It's multi-paradigm. You can do any type of programming in it, including functional. 02:23:09 humm i am using the term "functional" language without knowing the definition i think 02:23:34 ok 02:23:37 akersof: But you can mutate variables and object, you have a very strong object orientation system, you have first-class functions for functional programming and you even have GOTO 02:23:51 nice :) 02:23:58 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:51 With Lisp you can choose any style you want, and the macro system allows you to define new core constructs like new flow control structures if you want 02:25:17 huh? 02:25:19 akersof: It also compiles to native code, which should make the C++ developers happy 02:25:22 is lisp the language of god? 02:25:35 akersof: yes 02:25:41 Ahah 02:25:51 :) 02:26:13 http://xkcd.com/224/ 02:26:56 Ahah and then perl entered the deal. 02:27:24 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 02:27:24 funny :) 02:27:44 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:58 you know basic python for exemple is so borning 02:28:16 i like using metaclass that generate code on the fly 02:28:28 akersof: Then you'd like Lisp 02:28:38 (a basic example of metaprograming i like to use in python) 02:28:47 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-147-122.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:30 yes in writting program i see the limite of "state" control 02:29:48 and with what i want to do, usually i have to manage about 1000000000000 different state 02:30:08 just talking about the big switch case 02:30:12 harish_ [harish@nat/redhat/x-ulvfqstcebcvwboo] has joined #lisp 02:30:19 At an event some time ago, I did a talk about Lisp macros. It was recorded, but with a mobile phone so I don't know how watchable it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymDvW2Mvco 02:31:32 why lisp is not so common in production? 02:31:38 like python 02:31:41 or ruby 02:31:48 akersof: Plenty of reasons 02:31:51 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #lisp 02:31:53 (just asking i don't want to start a troll) 02:32:06 I think the syntax really put people off. 02:32:14 Zagaba, this is true 02:32:15 because Lisp is god's language not ordinary programmer :) 02:32:26 akersof: The most general answer is that language "power" is not a factor when choosing language for most projects 02:32:48 loke the sound is nice, I just can't see the slide, so it's weird.. 02:32:59 Zagaba, indeed 02:33:02 the sound is OK 02:33:07 akersof: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html 02:33:12 Zagaba: The slides are available though. Isn't there a link in the description? 02:33:17 Zagaba, there is a link for the slide 02:33:19 There is. 02:33:24 https://docs.google.com/presentation/pub?id=1mIHAruC3nbI-CZPVjX7AuRp-bj9xjJima0l6XrHUI6Y&start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000 02:34:02 I'll see a bit later, it's just weird to me, to not have the slides there, so you're pointing at a blank screen 02:34:06 really i am enjoying reading all this stuff :) 02:34:19 *zRecursive* I honestly just use CLISP do scripting things 02:34:24 i felt like when i discovered twisted (the python framework) 02:34:24 Zagaba: Just read the slides :-) 02:34:50 I'll do. :) 02:36:32 The legend says that lisp is a good language for A.I. is it true? 02:36:42 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:43 akersof: No 02:36:50 ah 02:36:51 akersof: Well, Lisp is good for everything 02:37:06 But there is nothing magical about AI that requires Lisp per se 02:37:19 loke, i could use lisp as a tool for every day job then? 02:37:27 akersof: That's what I do. 02:37:28 Java can do AI too 02:37:32 looking into directory and parsing file based on keyword 02:37:35 or soem other stuff 02:37:41 nice 02:38:02 CL is a general language as python, ruby, etc. 02:38:13 sure 02:38:42 and lisp have an interface with the operating system? 02:38:50 i mean the system 02:38:52 socket 02:38:56 file system 02:39:00 etc etc 02:39:04 akersof: Yes. More than one 02:39:25 And some supplied by library 02:39:57 akersof: Different Lisp implementations have slightly different API's, but there are standard libaries that act as frontends to the underlying implementations providing standard API's for all of this. For sockets, theere is a library called usocket for example. 02:40:16 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.242.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:40:22 For threading,m there is a library called bordeaux-threads, etc., etc. 02:40:43 -!- erikc [~erikc@CPE78cd8e65fa60-CM78cd8e65fa5d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: erikc] 02:40:47 ok 02:41:15 this is what you call "Different Lisp implementations" that scared me a biot 02:41:26 i read a lot about Common Lisp 02:41:30 me too 02:41:56 Now i just touch CLISP as it is easy to install 02:42:26 akersof: Don't be. There is a standard that all of them implement. For the things that the standard don't address (like threading or networking) there are the libraries. It's exactly the same as C. Many different compilers. 02:42:26 zRecursive, i use apt-get install this one too 02:42:26 and CLISP keeps stable for many decades :) 02:43:01 nice 02:43:29 IIRC, the OS supplied sbcl doesnot work very well 02:43:58 clisp has its issues too 02:44:04 it doesn't run Hunchentoot right, for example 02:44:05 You need install the newest SBCL manually 02:44:39 loke: i use CLISP run STUMPWM 02:45:31 I use sbcl and I have no problem with it (yet). 02:45:54 But, I don't know a lot about lisp, so there's that too. 02:45:54 SBCL is really very, very good 02:46:13 SBCL is great for producing native code 02:46:17 loke, what implemtation of lisp do you use? 02:46:24 SBCL, usually 02:46:27 Zagaba, and you too ? 02:46:33 I use ABCL for some things when I need Java integration 02:46:35 zRecursive: thanks for the "Rise of Worst is better" I'll read his paper, seems nice. 02:46:52 akersof: yes, but I may not be the best to guide you through that. 02:49:57 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.170.59] has joined #lisp 02:51:32 loke: PCL necessarily says nothing about quicklisp, since it predates it by some 2 years 02:51:44 mathrick: Yeah, I noticed. 02:53:45 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 02:55:24 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-clshovczujzqyfyj] has joined #lisp 02:56:02 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6c916.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 02:56:11 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 02:57:52 akersof: re: implementing your own control structures and programming styles, are you familiar with context-oriented programming? 02:58:50 mathrick, really, no 02:58:59 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:59:09 mathrick, what is context oriented programming 02:59:11 well, neither were the creators of Common Lisp, but you can use it just fine :) 02:59:15 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6d765.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:59:56 antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has joined #lisp 03:00:32 akersof: it's an extension and generalisation of aspect-oriented programming, if you know that (which incidentally has also been pioneered largely in CL, by much the same people), in which you structure your code as a collection of "contexts" to reflect the changing environment of the execution, which then influences the actual definitions methods have when invoked 03:00:41 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:00:53 -!- thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:01:18 the point of that example is that DEFINE-LAYERED-METHOD for context-oriented code is indistinguishable from DEFINE-METHOD, even though only one of them is a language built-in 03:02:53 I've had a lot of trouble finding material to really understand aspect oriented programming. could you direct me towards some? 03:03:38 doesthiswork: honestly, I tried to and then I found contextL and I didn't try further with AOP because it was annoyingly hard to find good documentation, unlike with COP 03:04:03 I dunno why it's so damn hard, but it is 03:04:34 mathrick: it's not as popular as python (of Java, or whatever) 03:04:48 there is something about cut points but I never got a good grasp of those either 03:04:50 akersof: similarly, when some people (including me) dislike the standard LOOP construct, we can move on to ITER and then have lengthy flamewars in here about which is better and more Lispy. We aren't held hostage by how the language is defined 03:04:55 Zagaba: what isn't? 03:05:04 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:05:10 I like iter 03:05:20 mathrick: Don't you dare speak ill about LOOP. It's awsome. 03:05:22 :-) 03:05:22 mathrick: AOP 03:05:34 doesthiswork: yeah, it's confusing and poorly explained in most places and I think you're supposed to pay someone for a training camp, because AOP is most popular in Java world 03:05:35 (As far as I know) 03:05:39 loke better than iter? 03:05:48 mathrick, sure 03:05:57 i understand... a bit 03:05:58 doesthiswork: iter just adds parentheses for no good reason 03:06:03 ok mathrick: send me com Contex OP instead 03:06:07 *some 03:06:07 Zagaba: AOP is a style of programming with implementations/tools in many languages, including Java, CL and python too I believe 03:06:31 loke: I don't see the problem with more parens 03:06:36 :D 03:06:48 doesthiswork: http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/contextl.html 03:07:04 Oh okay, I'm probably wrong. I just tends to assume that lisp (and thing related to lisp) as less doc than other more recent and popular language. 03:07:06 doesthiswork: Well, useless parens. Iter doesn't really give you any benefit compared to loop 03:07:48 akersof: I didn't expect you to understand every detail, or else you wouldn't need to learn. The point is that CL is flexible in ways almost no other languages are, and it takes time to grasp it because it's not really something you can be used to 03:08:08 what about the fact you can put the clause that accumulates a list anywhere in the loop body 03:08:09 amusingly, I think a good macroassembler is the closest in terms of "I can invent my own syntax" flexibility 03:08:30 doesthiswork: But I think my biggest beef with uses of iter is that people use it for no good reason compared to LOOP, which increases the cognitive burden on me when I read the code. I prefer to know one looping construct really well, instead of juggling two. 03:08:54 loke: and that you can easily access the previous value of forms 03:08:56 doesthiswork: I agree with that one though. The collect lcause in loop is a bit limited. 03:09:04 my beef is when people use LOOP, because they should just use ITER, which removes many warts and ill decisions from LOOP 03:09:20 LOOP sucks 03:09:35 and there are very good reasons to add parens where it does 03:09:37 mathrick: say what you will about loop vs. iter, but loop does not "suck" 03:09:43 does too 03:09:45 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:09:54 I think it's the worst part of the language 03:09:58 mathrick, sure, but i like metaphysics, probably it could help in learning lisp? 03:10:04 heh 03:10:08 hopefully 03:10:10 mathrick: format 03:10:23 doesthiswork: FORMAT has reasons to be the way it is 03:10:25 LOOP, not so much 03:10:39 mathrick: Now I know you're trolling, How could you suggest that LOOP is worse than the PATHNAME? 03:10:44 I think format could be better 03:10:51 but I don't want to have that flamewar again 03:10:56 are you really having this argument based on mathrick joking about arguments 03:11:08 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.80] has left #lisp 03:11:10 Bike: apparently 03:11:21 How many sub-languages does lisp implements, I mean format, loop and things the like? 03:11:29 Bike: yes. Meta-debating. 03:11:38 loke: I haven't had too much trouble with pathname. What's the biggest trouble? 03:11:42 sylecn [~user@113.106.251.82] has joined #lisp 03:11:46 I guess it depends on what you mean by sublanguages... 03:11:47 (And I know people can make their own so it's kind of a not so great question) 03:11:50 Zagaba: all of them 03:12:17 I mean, you could consider types a "language", kind of? 03:12:21 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 03:13:05 It was a poorly asked and formated question. And mathrick gave me the best answer I could ask for. 03:14:05 Bike: why did you destroy the nice argument I had going :( 03:15:27 doesthiswork: For basic stuff, pathnames work. But the problem is that it doesn't actually solve any of the problems it was designed to solve. 03:15:38 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:15:38 nydel_ [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ibsswnyrgxduouyu] has joined #lisp 03:15:56 doesthiswork: well there's this nice upcoming one about pathnames! probably more interesting too 03:17:16 Bike: We can only have a good one about pthnames if someone is willing to argue that it's actually good and does the right thing. 03:17:48 don't look at me! 03:18:03 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:18:09 does this solve the problems ? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html 03:18:41 doesthiswork: barely :-) 03:19:06 ok, what would an ideal solution do? 03:19:19 doesthiswork: I don't know 03:19:56 doesthiswork: Pathnames work great if you have a lisp machine, but not so much for Unix filesystems 03:20:29 Well then let's make lisps machines! 03:20:31 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:20:36 Zagaba: I'd wish 03:21:10 pathnames have supprot for "hosts" and (some) wildcards, but chokes on symlinks 03:22:14 My favourite issue is if you have the string: "/usr/bin", there is no portable way that you can extract "bar" as a directory name 03:22:18 I'd like to be able to try one sometime. 03:22:50 Zagaba: I'd love to try too 03:23:55 I like to think of emacs as a portable lisp machine. 03:24:26 emacs needs to be a full featured web-brouser too 03:24:56 That day will be the best day ever. 03:26:18 it's been too long. It's lost market share to newcomers like mosaic and netscape 03:26:29 p_nathan1 [~Adium@174-21-83-115.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:47 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-iegnldopbrdbvfju] has quit [Disconnected by services] 03:26:51 -!- nydel_ is now known as nydel 03:28:13 does this solve the problems ? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-portable-pathname-library.html <-- UIOP supposedly supersedes cl-fad 03:28:31 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ibsswnyrgxduouyu] has left #lisp 03:29:26 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ibsswnyrgxduouyu] has joined #lisp 03:29:49 http://common-lisp.net/gitweb?p=projects/asdf/asdf.git;a=blob;f=uiop/README;hb=HEAD;js=1 03:32:14 * pathname: to survive the gruesome non-portability trap that are CL pathnames 03:32:14 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:32:14 (and their lovecraftian "logical" variant), offering a vast array of functions 03:32:14 and a sensible, usable abstraction to specify relative pathnames. 03:35:47 nug700_ [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:59 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:39:58 -!- normanrichards [~textual@mobile-166-147-064-097.mycingular.net] has quit [] 03:42:44 anyone here against the CLOS? 03:43:32 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:43:41 I tried to stop breathing once, wasn't that nice. (Don't take that seriously, like at all) 03:44:40 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 03:45:50 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 03:46:25 -!- done_the_dew [~user@2601:1:bf00:850:212:f0ff:fe87:2295] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:46:55 Tyler [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 03:47:06 -!- nug700_ [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:47:28 danlentz_ [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:23 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:48:26 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:44 eagleflo_ [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has joined #lisp 03:49:50 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 03:51:15 -!- z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:51:30 luis` [~luis@kerno.org] has joined #lisp 03:52:38 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- prip [~foo@host12-125-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- eagleflo [~aku@eagleflow.fi] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- adeht [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:38 -!- expez [~expez@expez.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:39 -!- luis [~luis@kerno.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:39 -!- setheus_ [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 03:52:54 -!- danlentz_ is now known as danlentz 03:53:34 _death [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has joined #lisp 03:54:25 setheus [~setheus@107-203-153-73.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:15 is it considered improper to leave html tags unclosed, such as rather than ending href=s.css /> 03:55:45 retty sure it's actively disallowed by standards, rather than "improper" 03:55:49 i ask because i'm using :hctsmsl and it uses :html-tags which doesn't seem to write like that 03:55:59 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:56:01 that's what i thought Bike 03:56:25 Oddity [~Oddity@154.20.70.67] has joined #lisp 03:56:31 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@154.20.70.67] has quit [Changing host] 03:56:31 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:56:38 what would you recommend as a package for generating html and similar markup, something up-to-date? 03:57:03 cl-who? sexml? (or whatever sexml uses, i forget) 03:58:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.220.192] has joined #lisp 03:58:20 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.220.192] has quit [Changing host] 03:58:20 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:58:52 z0d [~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 03:59:10 optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 03:59:17 nug700_ [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:34 okay i was using a mix of cl-who and cl-markup earlier but was turned on to hctsmsl by someone in #lisp recently 04:00:09 actually it's a great package, hctsmsl, the only flaw i can find is the lack of tag closing. might be ripe for forking, it's on github 04:01:08 I like sexml because all it needs is an xml dtd, and from that it builds up a package for you. so you have one for html, one for svg, and so on. 04:01:17 but just fixing tag closing should be easy enough.... 04:01:55 prip [~foo@host12-125-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:02:12 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:02:37 expez [~expez@expez.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:04 i've to have a look at sexml, maybe that's more fit 04:03:51 essentially where i'm at is i can generate the content for dynamic pages with whatever.lisp and i need another thing that shapes it all into a template for the eyes 04:05:16 e.g. maybe wiki.lisp grabs a page from a sqlite database local file, and turns the markup into html and frames it in a div or something. after that it needs to be presented and styled. something like templates. 04:05:32 ozialien [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:42 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.141.91.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:06:03 now that i have hunchentoot running perfectly beneath apache there is so much i can do that i couldn't before! it's been christmas every day. 04:06:19 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 04:06:45 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:06:56 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:10:38 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:12 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:14:30 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:15:33 sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:40 nydel: what are you doing? 04:16:36 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:17:34 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:17:44 nydel_ [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-wwhnjqcrxupakemp] has joined #lisp 04:19:33 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-ibsswnyrgxduouyu] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:19:40 -!- nydel_ is now known as nydel 04:22:17 k0001 [~k0001@host130.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:22:35 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:23:50 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:24:47 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:28:55 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:29:00 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:08 So, I have these very useful macros that I'm hesitating to include in UIOP or not: (1) DBG — see asdf/uiop/contrib/debug.lisp (2) nest — see fare-utils/base/macros.lisp 04:30:19 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 04:31:01 Neither is indispensible in any situation, but where they are needed, it's a real pain to have to pull a new library just for them, or to do without them — they really gain by being ubiquitous. 04:31:16 So — is it fair to include them in UIOP ? 04:32:47 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:32:51 DBG is a great tool for printf-debugging. 04:33:39 nest is just needed to fight the tendency of all lisp code to indent indefinitely to the right, and makes for a more "pythony" feel in code blocks 04:38:00 I've never actually used nest, but I remember thinking about using it several times 04:38:36 my main reason is the shortsightedness of line-diff based VCS'es. I don't want to change 30 lines for one wrapping... 04:39:12 *attila_lendvai* is afk for a couple of mins 04:40:16 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:41:09 -!- Lefeni [~Lefeni@c-fc47e555.143-16-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:42:56 Many times I've hesitated about using it, and rejected it just because I didn't want to pull in fare-utils. But would have used it if in asdf/uiop, i.e. ubiquitous. 04:42:56 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:43:34 and yes, diffs are also a good reason to not indent things too much. 04:43:56 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:50 loke: I've just seen your talk and I liked it quite a lot. 04:45:00 Zagaba: thank you :-) 04:45:23 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:45:38 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:45:48 today i pushed some code that involved "1760 insertions, 1761 deletions". i switched some elseifs to a switch/case. line-based vcs is kind of hilarious. 04:46:01 I was actually talking about lisp with a friend at school today and, you put in word how I feel about it so much better than I can do. 04:47:08 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 04:47:08 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 04:47:08 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:48:17 It's hard to explain why it's good, because you need to use it for a while to really "get it" 04:48:25 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.153] has joined #lisp 04:48:55 Next time I do a talk, I think I will try to focus on a different "cool factor", CLOS. Try to explain how CLOS is more flexible than any other object system. 04:49:16 Fare: so, DBG is basically a conditional PRINT with some extras in the sense that I can just randomly wrap whatever expression I feel like? 04:49:19 That's a nice idea, indeed. 04:50:27 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50:27 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:50:30 DBG is not conditional 04:50:45 you use it while debugging, remove it when done. 04:50:50 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:51:24 which makes it all the more frustrating when it's not ubiquitous 04:51:28 Fare: what we do is that we simply depend on hu.dwim.logger in every project, add debug logging with the appropriate level wherever it's needed, and configure the logger as needed. these lines serve as a form of code comments also. if the dependency is too big, then I add a bunch of shallow pretender macros that are API-compatible with the full logger and load the full logger conditionally 04:51:33 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:00 I guess that's how you use it, but the docstring says: TAG is typically a constant string or keyword, 04:52:00 but in general is an expression returning a tag to be printed first; 04:52:00 if the expression returns NIL, nothing is printed. 04:52:23 that's good in some cases, but when doing actual printf-debugging, I put a LOT of DBG's around to locate the issue, that I don't want in production code 04:52:49 and I want to be able to wrap it around some code so as not to have to introduce a progn 04:53:37 Zagaba, loke: where is this talk? 04:53:57 Fare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymDvW2Mvco 04:54:14 -!- dented42 [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:54:26 attila: (DBG :foo1 ...) before (DBG :foo2 ...) after, (DBG :foo4 ...) at another place... and narrow down where the failure is happening. 04:55:09 dented42 [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has joined #lisp 04:55:10 useful when the failure causes the program to exit, crash, or silently give bad results, and you don't have a clean break at which to inspect the stack 04:55:17 Fare: It was at the Singapore Microsoft office. (it wasn't an MS event, they had just allowed the use of their locale) 04:55:48 OK, I think I'll put DBG and nest 04:55:52 I can't remember which user group arranged it. Cloud computing user group or something like that 04:55:52 just because I can. 04:57:25 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:59:08 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:01:08 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.170.59] has quit [Quit: ...] 05:01:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:01:30 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:41 how to find a maximum element in a sequence 05:01:44 not numbers 05:01:54 just elements I have a comparator for 05:02:06 (reduce #'max numbers) 05:02:13 in other words I want to find the best element 05:02:20 loke: _not_ numbers 05:02:54 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-228-63-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:02:58 (first sort #'my-predicate) 05:03:01 but without sorting 05:03:07 (reduce #'(lambda (x y) (if (comp x y) x y))) list) 05:03:59 Fare: I found myself extremely rarely doing printf bisecting in lisp 05:04:23 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:04:38 I found myself doing it more than I hoped for 05:04:53 Fare: if you ask me, I'd add nest, and not add DBG. one can always copy-paste the DBG macro in the repl whenever it's needed 05:05:21 working with a crappy codebase that involves non-interactive server code with lots of with-foo transactional state didn't help. 05:05:43 well, I must add that I don't start working on anything until standard error handling procedures are not working slick... :) 05:05:50 Yeah, I suppose that's why I added the (uiop-debug) utility. 05:05:51 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 05:06:52 loke: thanks, your version is quite short 05:06:57 but sometimes I want it to "just be there"... and not have to deal with every other hacker's half-assed implementation of the idea. 05:07:06 loke: I don't have a comp at hand 05:07:24 i only have a WEIGHT function, returning a number 05:07:47 Fare: have you seen hu.dwim.debug? levy even added a with-trace thingy that walks the code and injects print statement that produce a expr level output... :) 05:07:49 so, ideally I should have (max obj1 obj2 :key #'weight) 05:08:03 antonv: Well, make it into a funcall... (defun maximalise (fn list) (reduce #'(lambda (x y) (if (funcall fn x y) x y))) list)) 05:08:19 never really used much, though... 05:08:53 Fare: I use a macro over use-package that imports the dbg-like functions I always want available temporarily while working in a package 05:09:07 (defun maximalise (fn list) (reduce #'(lambda (x y) (if (> (funcall fn x) (funcall fn y)) x y))) list)) 05:09:12 loke: two funcalls 05:09:21 loke: I wonder, if reduce has a :key attribute 05:09:27 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-228-63-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:09:51 i mean :key parameters 05:09:55 and it does~ 05:10:14 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:10:16 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-228-63-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:10:28 antonv: It does, but it won't help you much if what you have is a comparator 05:10:32 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:10:46 yep. that's another thing... I also have some utils that can import even large set of symbols into another package 05:10:55 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 05:11:07 loke: yes, turns out it would not help me at all 05:11:31 Fare: I think the more common trick is (defmacro :dbg ...) though 05:11:36 antonv: the function I just gave you is the best bet, methinks 05:12:51 e.g. when writing the tests for a project in a separate package, sometimes I (import-all-owned-symbols :project :project.test) if I don't want to test/deal with the exported/non-exported sybols 05:12:58 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:58 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:13:24 *attila_lendvai* prepares to leave to the office 05:13:25 attila_lendvai: I have the macro call hooks, and they have slowly been accreting more imports:) I have found the concept of a "shadowed-import" necessary for this, so that I don't get sent to the debugger all the time 05:14:00 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:18 that function also has a :overwrite keyword arg 05:15:39 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.195.80] has joined #lisp 05:15:47 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:15:47 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-228-63-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:15:49 nice, sounds very convenient for the test package case 05:17:58 It will be convenient to have a bot in #lisp ? 05:18:09 Vivitron: I don't like use-package and importing of macro symbols, because it messes with your package 05:18:21 putting the macro in the keyword package can be clever. 05:18:31 I don't know if it's TOO clever or not... 05:18:45 Fare: I mean I use it to swap packages at the repl, not leave it in the sources 05:19:13 yes, I understand that. But it's a huge pain if the package has a symbol called dbg 05:19:25 the :DBG thing is clever, though 05:19:33 maybe I should adopt it. 05:19:57 It also makes the code stand out, which is good, because you want to easily see it and remove it before commit 05:20:20 I've just launch a process that is an infinite loop. How can I kill it without killing slime and everything? 05:20:23 for me DBG feels too much an ad-hoc tool to add into a very general utility package. especially since I've heard about :dbg :) 05:20:31 Vivitron: use uiop:define-package's :mix feature 05:20:34 It's SOOO good. 05:21:27 attila: what about having the utility package define :DBG ? 05:22:07 Fare: the definition of :dbg can be in your .sbclrc... :) 05:22:09 Zagaba: C-c C-c ? 05:22:14 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:22:21 Thanks Fare. 05:22:36 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.153] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 05:22:40 but to be honest, I don't really have too strong feelings about it 05:22:45 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:23:10 Fare: it's not immediate clear to me what the mix option does 05:23:12 I don't either, but I'm sick when I see someone else's inferior debug macro crop up 05:23:27 (:mix uiop fare-utils alexandria) 05:23:28 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Quit: kcj] 05:23:44 will pick uiop symbols over fare-utils, over alexandria, where there are conflicts 05:23:49 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:23:50 and otherwise use those packages. 05:24:10 Fare: oh, that is nice 05:25:31 especially nice since I stole if-let from alexandria 05:25:42 so there is at least this conflict 05:26:57 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:28:18 *attila_lendvai* needs to go, but notes before that :mix is indeed nice 05:28:27 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:30:20 Ok as much as I like lisp, it's really hard to *get it* and be able to produce code... Or it's just me. 05:31:28 You'll get over the hump 05:33:24 alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:34:00 Zagaba: how long have you tried? 05:34:20 I mean, I've seen people using LISP as if it were COBOL. that works, too. But it's ugly. 05:34:47 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:35:12 Fare: Not enough. I'm trying to make a hangman in lisp. And since I did it all in C not so long ago, it's a bit weird. I'm not really used to the lisp way of doing thing. 05:35:50 If you were used to it already, it wouldn't be a worthwhile language to learn. 05:36:03 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:37:37 Indeed. And, I love playing around with it. So I'll get it. Someday. 05:37:57 A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing. — Alan Perlis 05:40:32 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 262 seconds] 05:41:14 Fare: how to store portably a relative pathname? 05:41:33 using a unix-namestring 05:41:47 as long as it doesn't have a wildcard character 05:41:59 you can't do anything portably with wildcards 05:41:59 Fare: so that I can store it to a file in one lisp implementaton, and read it in another lisp implementation 05:42:06 yes 05:42:08 Fare: no wildcards 05:42:14 unix-namestring from what package? 05:42:20 (parse-unixnamestring foo) 05:42:22 uiop 05:42:25 or uiop/pathname 05:43:24 uiop, your one-stop shop for CL portability (barring threads (for which to use bordeaux-threads or lparallel) and advanced I/O (for which to use IOlib)). 05:43:24 <^self> Here is your shopping list: (1) Irreverent demonic explosions; (2) Autonomous Baltic geese; (3) Didactic obvious sleeves; (4) Apathetic rectractors 05:43:43 (ql:quickliad :uiop) 05:43:46 right? 05:44:03 #-asdf3 (asdf:load-system :uiop) 05:44:16 ah, I had a typo in quickload 05:44:50 The next release of ASDF will have a slightly improved UIOP, since I'm currently doing stuff with it, but it's mostly stable. 05:45:16 Still, bugs are being found since it's not as widely used as I'd like it to be, ye 05:45:19 t 05:46:12 for me, uiop:run-program was a game-changer — no more shell scripting. 05:46:47 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 05:47:18 (previous available as xcvb-driver:run-program/ and still available with an enhanced interface via inferior-shell:run) 05:47:24 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:05 Fare: how can you run a unix pipeline with uiop:run-program? 05:48:23 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:48:45 you use inferior-shell:run instead 05:49:14 ideal integration between Lisp and foreign OS console programs would be to be able to mapcar over for example /bin/ls output and then /bin/sort the mapcar result 05:49:58 (defun rpms-installed (&key (packagenames t) host) (run/lines `(pipe (rpm -qa) ,@(unless (eq packagenames t) `((egrep ("^(" ,@(loop :for (name . more) :on packagenames :collect name :when more :collect "|") ")-[^-]+(-[^-]+)?$"))))) :host host)) 05:50:22 antonv: run/lines does that for you 05:50:57 Fare: reading this snipped.... 05:51:34 for piping stuff into sort, you need the latest ASDF 3.0.3, though. Earlier versions of run-program have output redirection only. 05:51:49 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.0.25] has joined #lisp 05:55:06 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:30 Fare: the run/lines function 05:55:36 yes? 05:55:43 is it in uiop or in inferior-shell? 05:55:43 it runs the stuff, returns a list of lines 05:55:54 this is inferior-shell, which uses uiop internally 05:56:37 uiop can do the redirection and the returning of lines, but won't do the string interpolation and ssh remoting for you 05:56:56 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 05:57:12 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:10 the :host host is the ssh remoting. 05:59:57 rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 06:00:32 ah 06:00:36 you are right 06:00:48 I am trying to understand the host paramer 06:01:08 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 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rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has joined #lisp 06:17:13 -!- hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:17:39 STilda [bca2a724@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.167.36] has joined #lisp 06:22:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.220.192] has joined #lisp 06:22:11 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.76.220.192] has quit [Changing host] 06:22:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 06:22:17 -!- nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0b785d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:22:18 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.165.89.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:23:45 rmathews [~roshan@122.164.117.126] has joined #lisp 06:23:53 hiato [~hiato@196-215-175-234.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:24:47 -!- kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:29:29 sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 06:33:19 how do you end a ql:quickload :qt that seems to hang forever in cffi? 06:34:41 C-c ? 06:35:24 malbertife___ [~malbertif@95.236.11.102] has joined #lisp 06:35:27 slime/swank is such a hack and a bad excuse for not having a good repl :P 06:38:43 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:46:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-65.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:33 nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has joined #lisp 06:48:46 mangarju [~user@u-of-rochester-128-151-150-17.wireless.rochester.edu] has joined #lisp 06:52:16 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host130.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:54:12 kanru [~kanru@118-163-10-190.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:59 https://gist.github.com/b1996d0a525d4ea3ada1 hmm 06:56:02 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:56:28 przl [~przlrkt@p579236EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:34 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 06:58:29 a4343 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Leaving.] 12:27:04 Horizon1 [~horizon@119.81.25.208-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:14 What's the best GNU/Linux or BSD compatible interpreter or compiler for Lisp? 12:32:26 SBCL 12:32:35 -!- doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:33:31 Thanks. I've used Clisp which is a REPL for POSIX shells but it's a pain to use 12:33:52 wat? 12:34:01 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:34:06 Horizon1: clisp is not a "repl for posix shells" 12:34:24 Horizon1: clisp is an implementation of common lisp. 12:35:50 As far as I saw the interface was working only in terminal & was limited to a Read-Eval-Print-Loop 12:35:56 If that's not the case then I missed something 12:36:10 Horizon1: are you looking for a lisp ide really? 12:36:27 I'm not looking for an IDE really because they're more trouble than it's worth 12:36:37 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:36:38 Horizon1: so what is it that you're looking for? 12:36:44 well you can just use SLIME as a REPL without the IDE stuff 12:36:55 its certainly better than using it from the terminal 12:36:55 I limit myself to Emacs. I wanted to know what the preference is for an interpreter or compiler 12:37:02 CLISP was the only one I've used 12:37:14 Horizon1: try slime. use quicklisp to install it 12:37:20 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:37:31 cue "i hate emacs" 12:38:07 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 12:38:20 Using emacs or vi is better than using Codeblocks, Eclipse, or any of these other IDEs that seem to be so popular these days 12:39:43 Horizon1: Then I think H4ns' suggestion will be good for you 12:40:04 Thanks. That will be a good place to start 12:40:57 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:41:05 Horizon1: lispworks (comercial non-open source) has an IDE *and* it happens to be an emacs variant ;) 12:41:26 I've read the first part of the book Land of Lisp, which covers Common Lisp by creating games. Anyone else find it to be a good resource? I know there are many books on lisp but this was the most entertaining one so far 12:41:37 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.225.138.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:42:13 Horizon1: it's ok, but not the best. The most recomended one is Practical Common Lisp 12:42:53 Horizon1: LoL is a good place to start, but PCL is a must read 12:43:11 Yeah I've seen that one but haven't read it. I'll actually read it now 12:44:06 The style of Land of Lisp was attractive but because it limits the excercises to games it also limits the scope of explaining the language 12:44:07 -!- antonv [5daba1b0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.171.161.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:44:29 It's hard to relate to a book about games when everything that I'd use the language for has nothing to do with games 12:46:53 I've tried a few different books 12:47:01 alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 and gentle intro to symbolic computing is the only one that's sticking 12:47:50 Richard Stallman sent me here 12:47:55 wut 12:48:06 He's like the biggest Lisp advocate I know of 12:48:16 know in real life? 12:49:20 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Quit: Close the world, Open the nExt] 12:49:35 teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.226] has joined #lisp 12:49:40 No I don't. He's pretty famous. He founded the GNU project, the FSF, the GPL license, & is the author of Emacs, GCC, & part of GDB 12:50:25 he's also famous for dancing to soulja boy and seemingly picking something from his foot and eating it 12:50:27 Horizon1: most people here probably know who he is, and he's hardly the biggest one. If I recal correctly, he doesn't even like Common Lisp in favor of mac lisp 12:50:40 deadghost: I was just waiting for that :) 12:50:47 which is why emacs lisp is based on maclisp 12:51:06 -!- danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewi-1] 12:51:15 Practical Common Lisp is a very good book on Common Lisp 12:51:20 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 12:51:28 That may be true. There's one speech he gave & his finishing sentence was "If you chose to do some programming you should use Lisp or Scheme because they are more elegant & powerful than other languages, thank you." 12:51:40 I can't find the video but I thought it was cool 12:52:03 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:52:13 Horizon1: many many people say the exact same thing. In fact you should programm in whatever the hell you like. We just happen to like CL :) 12:52:30 Yeah, but there's a reason we're here 12:52:38 to feel smug 12:52:39 The parens are so magical 12:52:45 what stassats said. 12:53:00 I'm going to get parentheses for my room & decorate my walls with them 12:53:02 Horizon1: the reason I'm here is because this django project I'm working on is full of bugs and I need to procrastinate during work hours so I don't go insane :) 12:53:09 lisp has been the only language where I got the vibe HOLY SHIT THIS FEELS RIGHT 12:53:20 although just about no one agrees with me 12:53:27 lisp is the only language where programming is emotionally satisfying 12:53:29 deadghost: you'll get over it ;) 12:54:00 lisp is just a language, happens to be a really good one, no need to overdramatize it 12:54:01 @deadghost: That's what I mean. Some languages are better & Lisp is the only family of languages that I looked at it & thought "That looks distinctly elegant & correct." 12:54:02 eudoxia: you just haven't been programming enough in lisp then 12:54:22 and haven't dealt with stale and written under the deadline code-bases 12:54:41 i haven't looked at any legacy lisp codebases 12:54:57 Some people will say that some languages aren't better than others, but the creation of languages that are intentionally bad are proof against that. Malbolge & Brainfuck are some examples 12:54:57 eudoxia: you don't know a language until you deal with legacy code 12:55:08 stassats: you don't like programming in lisp? 12:55:12 until you created legacy code 12:55:20 stassats: that too :) 12:55:21 i know who rms is Horizon1 12:55:36 prxq_: i don't like programming at all! 12:55:55 i see 12:56:25 legacy lisp sounds scary given how old it is 12:56:30 maybe i should try getting CavityStuffer (1993) to run on a modern lisp and see how bad legacy lisp is 12:56:31 even legacy code, or code written under tight deadlines is nicer in Lisp. That's my experience, at least. 12:56:39 Common Lisp. The language with a music video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc 12:56:41 http://www.ai.sri.com/~kr/nano/cavstuf/cavstuf.html 12:57:26 legacy C++ is often just impenetrable (especially from the gcc 2.95 era) 12:57:31 prxq_: that's because lisp has cool debuging features and is very introspective so you aren't as lost in it, the code is still bad, humans wrote it after all 12:58:18 pavelpenev: yes, but the language is still more stable and lenient. 12:58:19 eudoxia: someone has kept CLX ported, it still has Xerox copyrights in the files from the late 80's 12:58:32 ggole [~ggole@124-169-117-229.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:00:22 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:00:54 blitz_ [~julian@erwin.inf.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:01:29 hey. does anyone know whether there is something like expect (the tcl library) for CL? 13:01:39 i wonder when today's projects will look like legacy 13:03:04 it takes longer if code is given love and care yes? 13:03:09 and hugs 13:03:43 I'm pretty sure you can hug code given emacs has deldo 13:05:04 blitz_: not that I know of. what do you need it for? 13:05:24 z0d: setting up and controlling benchmarks 13:05:37 *blitz_* is afk for some minutes 13:06:50 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:07:33 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:09:39 -!- effy [~quassel@111.197.235.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:15:07 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:23 ivan4th [~user@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:19:51 effy [~quassel@111.197.235.6] has joined #lisp 13:20:00 -!- stenryshen [~stenryshe@223.69.175.228] has left #lisp 13:23:06 z0d: one usecase is starting qemu -nographic and controlling the virtual serial console. logging in, starting stuff, etc. 13:36:02 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-198.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:27 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:40:08 -!- GuilOooo [~GuilOooo@mlir.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:40:44 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:41:20 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:45:53 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:46:40 -!- nipra [~nipra@61.12.27.114] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:49:03 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:49:07 Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.24.223] has joined #lisp 13:55:32 -!- Horizon1 [~horizon@119.81.25.208-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has left #lisp 13:56:23 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 13:58:19 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 13:59:33 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 14:02:08 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:02:59 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:06:14 ltsampro` [~user@adsl-167.46.190.127.tellas.gr] has joined #lisp 14:06:35 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@14-5.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:48 -!- ltsampros [~user@adsl-35.46.190.114.tellas.gr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:10:32 hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-096-7.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:49 hiroaki [~hiroaki@tmo-096-7.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:54 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 14:13:44 echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has joined #lisp 14:14:52 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:15:25 -!- _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:21 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #lisp 14:20:06 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:20:19 dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:59 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 thanmustoki [~oki@unaffiliated/thanmustoki] has joined #lisp 14:21:44 -!- thanmustoki [~oki@unaffiliated/thanmustoki] has left #lisp 14:23:26 patrickwonders [~patrickwo@184.49.131.79] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.225.138.198] has joined #lisp 14:28:54 koning_robot [~user@s5597d50c.adsl.online.nl] has joined #lisp 14:30:12 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139948 <-- is this a bug in iterate? between the last iteration and the epilogue, some of the variables are updated one more time, whereas the others are not 14:30:39 -!- milosn_ is now known as milosn 14:34:11 "Multiple drivers may appear in a single iterate form, in which case all of the driver variables are updated each time through the loop, in the order in which the clauses appear. The first driver to terminate will terminate the entire loop." 14:34:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@tmo-096-7.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:53 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@tmo-096-7.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:34:55 and "In all cases, the value of the driver variable on exit from the loop, including within the epilogue code (see the finally clause), is undefined." 14:38:20 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38:33 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 14:41:00 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:41:55 thank you stassats, i had a hunch they might be undefined in the epilogue but somehow couldn't find it in the manual 14:42:19 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:32 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.225.138.198] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:43:43 koning_robot: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Drivers.html#Drivers 14:44:09 -!- AeroNotix [~aero@37.139.18.183] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:45:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:45:58 -!- sellout- [~Adium@184-96-131-250.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:48:25 -!- patrickwonders [~patrickwo@184.49.131.79] has quit [Quit: patrickwonders] 14:50:10 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 14:53:04 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:54:25 nilsi_ [~nilsi@178.73.206.4] has joined #lisp 14:55:36 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:37 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:55:37 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:55:59 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.118.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:03:22 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 15:03:50 -!- echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has quit [Quit: BBL] 15:04:29 echo-area [~user@114.254.99.176] has joined #lisp 15:06:42 opt9 [~user@112.187.229.68] has joined #lisp 15:07:36 jasom: IOlib doesn't need "yesterday's build of sbcl" 15:08:24 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09:06 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 15:09:21 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-40-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:09:32 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@14-5.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:11:25 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:12:09 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 15:12:34 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 15:13:06 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D2EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:18:10 stassats: well, I'm certainly an idiot because now, after I installed everything again using clean system, it loads perfectly fine. Is there any simple built-in tests I can run to make sure everything is good? 15:19:47 paule22 [~paule32@dslb-094-222-086-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:54 hello 15:20:15 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:20:27 hi 15:20:35 is lisp a good programming language for beginner to write a electronic applications ? 15:20:35 stassats: and, by the way, I guess you should also add "install MSVC++" to instruction because if it's not installed, nothing will work properly. 15:20:50 paule22: what kind of applications? 15:21:26 vircures [~vircures@50-192-42-94-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:37 hitecnologys: a electronic workbench, also cirrcuit, and relais 15:21:55 diods ... 15:22:05 led's ... 15:22:27 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:22:40 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:22:46 paule22: I'm not sure what do you mean workbench. You want to write electric circuit simulator in Lisp? 15:22:56 s/mean/mean by/ 15:23:00 yes 15:23:01 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 15:23:26 paule22: it's a fine programming language 15:23:43 paule22: then you can use Lisp if you want so. 15:24:10 i have started a project, with own lisp implementation 15:24:15 little bit 15:24:57 therefore i ask, before i code and code and code ... 15:24:58 Why do you need your own implementation? 15:25:26 clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 15:25:32 it is delphi based, and common lisp is text console ... 15:25:37 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:25:48 You're doing it wrong. 15:25:49 delphi = gui applications 15:26:00 you can do gui apps with common lisp... 15:26:28 hmm 15:26:40 paule22: you'd be surprised, but there's Qt and GTK. 15:26:46 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:11 that's not surprising :p 15:27:15 yes, i have other project with qt 4.8 15:27:35 hitecnologys: you shouldn't have to install msvc 15:27:38 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.21.195.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:07 stassats: hmm. It asked for MSVC-specific dll. 15:28:16 which one? 15:28:30 msvc100.dll or something like this. 15:28:38 it's included in the zip 15:28:45 Hmm. 15:28:46 -!- clmsy_ [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28:55 Weird. 15:29:20 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 15:31:06 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:16 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 How can I quickly verify that it's actually working? 15:32:09 qt-tutorial 15:33:50 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:34:59 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@41.13.24.223] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 15:36:05 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.141.91.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:37:05 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:37:12 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@14-5.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:39 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@14-5.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 15:39:47 Hooray! 15:40:02 It works. 15:40:16 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #lisp 15:40:19 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:18 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:18 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:42:03 Fonts look horrible though. 15:42:40 qt uses its own rendering, i hear that you can use the native one in qt-5 15:43:31 Sounds cool, I'll check this. 15:43:47 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@c-24-13-69-42.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:54 though commonqt doesn't support qt-5 yet 15:44:53 it'll be easier to rewrite smoke in lisp than to figure out how to use cmake 15:45:18 k0001 [~k0001@host243.186-109-101.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:46:24 Rewriting smoke in lisp is great idea but it may take lots of time. 15:46:31 not really 15:47:13 just need to parse the subset of c++ that qt headers uses, generate wrappers, generate lisp code describing them 15:47:33 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:47:58 milanj [~milanj@109-93-32-12.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #lisp 15:48:03 -!- Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:48:40 this looks really interesting as a start to a lisp interface generator http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/?a=tree&p=public/clang-ast&h=655d1826f643de1a23face70d95becef7d70b9de&hb=8c2a64a70b570e0797e2ccba40449f7797040284 15:49:01 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:49:29 dlowe: if not for the license 15:51:38 shrug. I don't think that governs the output of the program 15:53:09 hey guys, with hunchentoot define-easy-handler, it seems only the most recently compiled one works, ie I have multiple ones at different uri's, all but one of them fail 15:53:18 do I have to do something like (push them into the *dispatch-table* etc? 15:53:54 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 15:54:33 ahungry: I think so, yes. 15:54:49 -!- cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:55:00 ahungry: at least a year ago it worked like this. 15:55:17 ahungry: you have to use different function names 15:55:23 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0b785d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:11 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 15:56:20 And make sure one of them doesn't accidentally catch all as HT will only dispatch to the first one that returns a value. 15:58:18 Thanks guys, will try tweaking, in the past I didn't have issue with regex dispatchers (and using my catchall last) - this time I'm attempting the easy handlers and they aren't so easy for me haha 15:58:36 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.188.20] has joined #lisp 15:58:37 you can paste your code 15:58:52 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59:12 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 15:59:21 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 16:00:17 worked it out, ty, had to update to make sure the easy-handlers weren't doubling up on their identifiers, then take out the push to the dispatch-table for them 16:00:39 -!- effy [~quassel@111.197.235.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:01:34 hitecnologys: https://sourceforge.net/projects/mylisp/?source=navbar 16:02:19 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:36 Poenikatu [~poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 drmeister [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 16:03:09 i wonder me, why the project run in debug mode (ide open of delphi) and stabd alone it runs, too, but does not output "> 100" in the 4 window (right bottom 16:03:17 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:03:33 huh? 16:03:36 stabd = standalone 16:04:52 -!- spacefrogg is now known as spacefrogg^ 16:06:09 paule22: it don't have Delphi compiler, can't test it. 16:06:47 paule22: this channel is for the discussion of Common Lisp, not just any lisp 16:07:19 -!- Poenikatu [~poenikatu@pdpc/supporter/bronze/poenikatu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:09:36 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:42 cory786 [~cory@CK-Laptop.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 16:14:30 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:15:40 -!- dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: dcxi] 16:16:15 motionman 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17:29:53 boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:27 -!- rmathews [~roshan@122.164.251.5] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:32:37 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:33:01 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #lisp 17:37:43 ikki [~ikki@177.224.112.55] has joined #lisp 17:38:38 anybody has sbcl on windows lying around? 17:38:59 Jubb [~Jubb@pool-71-178-197-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:14 I want the error message for (truename "/non-existing-path") 17:39:20 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:39:23 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-193.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:36 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 17:40:58 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: connection stopped into perpetual damage] 17:41:36 stassats: hi 17:41:44 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:27 I need to write code for extraxt data from different clos objects, since objects are defined with different child classes with a unique parent, the methods are quite similar, shall I implement a macro or leave the methods? 17:44:12 the macro will generate the right code to extract data from a particular object 17:44:16 Posterdati: It sounds like you might want to just use call-next-method, or maybe one of the other method combinations like progn or something. 17:45:06 mmmh ok 17:46:05 zacharias_ [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:47:40 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-20-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:49:06 hugod [~user@70.24.180.96] has joined #lisp 17:49:09 scracth that request, i figured it out 17:49:21 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:51:32 -!- 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[~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 the mylisp project works now 19:34:57 don't ask me why 19:35:20 i have remove admin rights at startup at delphi 19:35:33 -!- LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:33 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:33 -!- theAlgorist [~theAlgori@host5-216-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:33 -!- didi` [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:33 -!- _death [nobody@al.islaam.com.ar] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:33 -!- Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:34 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:34 -!- djinni` [~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:35:34 -!- joneshf-work [~joneshf@mail.concordusapps.com] has quit [*.net *.split] 19:36:13 GuestC6248 [~caprice1@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 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19:40:20 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:23 dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 -!- malbertife [~malbertif@95.236.11.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:41:57 -!- sellout-1 is now known as sellout 19:42:27 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 effy [~quassel@111.197.237.32] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 -!- schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 19:44:14 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 19:51:30 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:59 -!- STilda|2 [~kvirc@188.162.167.36] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:59:26 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-38-0.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #lisp 20:03:01 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:03:47 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:04:13 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:04:42 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 20:05:54 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat109.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:14:08 nha_ [~prefect@koln-4d0b785d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:11 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 20:18:29 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 20:19:27 So, not sure how many people here know this, but apparently stumpwm was forked by some people into dswm. As far as I'm concerned, stumpwm isn't really actively developed anymore, and I think dswm will be. 20:20:00 mm, i've heard of it but haven't really checked it out 20:20:39 Someone i know just tried it, everything works. I also just talked to the developer and he seems friendly. 20:20:59 also there's #stumpwm if you want to proseyltize more directly 20:21:01 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:21:46 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:21:56 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:16 Oh, didn't mean to be proselytizing. I was just spreading the word that something was indeed out there of that nature. 20:22:50 proselytizing isn't necessarily a bad thing :) 20:23:01 ehu [~ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 20:23:52 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:28:00 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:58 kristof: it's all well and nice, but that means that dswm is unstable and a moving target. On the other hand, I'm happy to learn that stumpwm is finally stable. I'll install it soon. 20:31:08 nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.246.16.108] has joined #lisp 20:31:26 that's not funny 20:31:26 -!- Adeon [~valaat@109.73.169.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:32:04 I'm perfectly serrious. 20:32:32 Oh wait! The maintainer of dswm is in the bathroom. Catastroph! dswm is not maintained anymore! 20:32:45 make sure you use it on a non-threaded Lisp 20:33:02 I'd install it, but it's been over a decade since I've thought to myself "I really wish I could program my window manager" 20:35:09 dlowe: this is the good attitude. The only valid question: are you writing the code yourself? 20:35:15 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:15 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:35:15 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 20:36:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36:48 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 20:39:43 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:45 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:43:06 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:34 Adeon [~valaat@109.73.169.52] has joined #lisp 20:47:26 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:31 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D2EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:47:44 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:50:54 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 20:58:23 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:58:23 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:26 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:58:40 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.105.57] has joined #lisp 20:59:34 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:59:34 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@166.137.105.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:02:30 -!- Elvaron [~Elvaron@HSI-KBW-134-3-240-90.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:02:48 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.246.16.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:03:46 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:04:45 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:07:50 Elvaron [~Elvaron@HSI-KBW-134-3-240-90.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:10:29 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:11:01 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@164.138.80.236] has quit [Quit: mc40] 21:13:05 platypine [platypine@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:05 -!- platypine [platypine@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:13:05 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 21:13:16 beaumonta [~abeaumont@77.231.225.80] has joined #lisp 21:13:25 hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:30 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:50 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-38-0.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:14:04 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont_ 21:14:14 francogrex [~user@109.128.97.231] has joined #lisp 21:14:24 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:41 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:29 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 21:21:06 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6416C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:21:51 [SLB]` [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 21:24:47 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:24:48 -!- [SLB]` is now known as [SLB] 21:27:58 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-38-0.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:25 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:32:30 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:33:07 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:47 chsj [~lasca@186.130.224.13] has joined #lisp 21:34:59 greetings! 21:36:24 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-80-133.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:16 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 21:37:42 I'm trying to write a "stringify" macro, (stringify a b c) => "a b c", the question is how? 21:38:01 chsj: Why a macro? 21:38:28 did: that's a good question. 21:38:56 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 21:39:04 I came up with this: (string '| |) 21:39:16 (defmacro stringified (&rest args) (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" args)) 21:39:30 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 21:41:09 pjb: I've tryied your answer, but given a b c will return "abc", not "a b c" 21:41:21 -!- blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:41:23 It won't. 21:41:50 why not just write "a b c"? 21:41:56 (stringified a b c) --> "a b c" (with *print-case* = :downcase). 21:42:35 Is there any way to achieve that? 21:43:08 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 21:43:26 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:43:36 -!- guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: The Sleeper has Asleepen] 21:43:38 chsj: (defmacro stringified (&rest args) (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" args)) 21:44:11 Since it is a macro, it is not called stringiFY, but stringiFIED. 21:44:21 It's YOUR macro that doesn't work. 21:44:25 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:46:20 really? 21:46:40 -!- chsj [~lasca@186.130.224.13] has left #lisp 21:47:48 stassats: You may try this at home: find ~/quicklisp/ -name \*.lisp -exec grep -i 'defun *stringify' {} \; | wc -l 21:48:31 -!- keen___ [~blackened@p3b931224.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:48:47 keen_ [~blackened@p3b931224.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:49:43 what will it tell me? 21:49:52 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-251-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:05 How many libraries have a FUNCTION named stringify. 21:50:27 You can do the same with defmacro to compare. 21:50:38 will it tell me that you have just invented a rule that macro names should be in past tense? 21:50:48 Yes. 21:50:53 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:50:59 Since no macro ever was named stringify. 21:50:59 (with-opened-file ...) 21:51:09 Sounds like pedantry to me. 21:51:14 dlowe: WITH- DEF DEFINE- 21:51:19 i sometimes don't know whether pjb is for real or not 21:51:30 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:33 dlowe: for example, nobody in a sane mind would define a macro named MAKE-something. 21:51:33 But it's a justified bit of pedantry. :P 21:51:43 make-something is for function. define-something is for macros. 21:51:46 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 21:51:58 -!- alexherbo2 [~alexherbo@APlessis-Bouchard-154-1-83-65.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3-dev] 21:52:01 pjb: I know, I was just being silly 21:52:29 sb-alien:make-alien 21:52:48 stassats: the only thing, is that there are some code written by strange people where you have _functions_ named define-something! This is higly misleading, you have to be careful reading those codes. 21:53:21 stassats: this is clearly a naming error. 21:54:09 stassats: The point that pjb is making is that naming is pretty important if people want to understand what the code is doing. 21:55:02 i thought pjb said that everobody but pjb is not in a sane mind 21:55:18 in general, if you would use a "declarative" word to name a macro, and a "functional" or "procedural" word to name a function. 21:55:46 Bike [~Glossina@steams-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:55:49 stassats: not at all, they are exceptions. Just read the CLHS and most of the library code in quicklisp. 21:55:57 stassats: why do you think I refer to find ~/quicklisp ? 21:57:15 By the way, it completed on my system: 110 "defun stringify"! 21:57:41 (granted, there is some duplication since I don't purge old versions of libraries). 21:59:02 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:02 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:00:01 and how many stringified? 22:00:26 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:00:51 i don't see what was the point of helping create a macro which should have been a function, but changing the name and inventing an arbitrary rule that it should be named that way 22:01:57 There may be good reason to want to concatenate words at compilation time instead of writing a string. All right, probably not from a newbie. But that may exist. 22:02:36 and: find ~/quicklisp/ -name \*.lisp -exec grep -i 'defmacro *stringify' {} \; | wc -l # gives 0 22:02:40 -!- Yanez [~Thunderbi@159.178.28.52] has quit [Quit: Yanez] 22:02:54 -!- Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:03:14 Tarential [~Tarential@li421-205.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:03:43 no, my contention is that macros _must_ be named using past participles 22:03:50 which i don't believe in 22:07:33 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:29 -!- sdemarre [~serge@31.103-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:08:42 drmeiste_ [~drmeister@155.247.96.196] has joined #lisp 22:10:52 neither do i agree that macros can't start with "make" 22:11:02 -!- vircures [~vircures@50-192-42-94-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: vircures] 22:11:05 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:14:24 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@x1-6-e0-46-9a-1f-75-4a.k607.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 22:15:09 guyal [~anonymous@108-235-117-64.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:21 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:17:55 stassats: not necessarily past participles, but in a way that makes clear it's not a function. An active verb is a function. 22:18:40 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-211-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:18:50 nenorbot [~ronen@IGLD-84-229-158-109.inter.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:18:52 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-134-109.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:19:24 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-3-247.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 22:20:36 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:21:08 blacklabel [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:57 declaim? call-method? check-type? assert? destructuring-bind? 22:24:36 ln` [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 22:25:46 stassats: -ing is typical of macro. There's no function name with this suffix. 22:25:55 check- are also often macros. 22:26:03 declaim is quite declarative IMO. 22:26:13 There are of course a few exceptions. 22:26:25 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.97.231] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:26:35 how much more declarative is declaim than proclaim? 22:26:49 proclaim is procedural :-) 22:26:56 declaim is declarative. 22:27:06 Easy to remember. 22:27:31 so, macros can't be verbs, but if they are they have to end with "-ing", or start with "de" 22:27:33 what about push? 22:27:36 or pop 22:27:49 -!- ln` [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 22:27:50 They're in the -f category, like incf and setf. 22:28:04 how come vector-push names a function, but push is a macro? 22:28:31 vector-push because obviously it should be a function. push because of history, it should be named pushf. 22:28:42 if you a rule has more exceptions than conformities, then it's not a rule 22:28:46 s/you// 22:28:50 It's like atom instead of atomp. 22:29:07 ln|motoperpetuo [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 22:29:44 stassats: well, in most natural languages, rules have more exceptions than conformities. Take just irregular verbs, in almost all natural languages. 22:30:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE6416C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:30:20 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:22 They're quite numerous, and the most often used. When you talk natural language you use irregular verbs more often than regular ones. 22:30:29 so, that makes you able to invent any rule and teach it to newcommers? 22:30:37 Yes. 22:30:49 Does that make you unhappy? 22:31:05 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:20 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-38-0.bulk.ucr.edu] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:33:03 people, it is time to move your lazy feet! -> http://lisperweasel.blogspot.it/ 22:33:29 -!- ln|motoperpetuo is now known as ln` 22:33:50 pjb: as you can see 22:33:50 music at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9OO0S5w2k 22:34:29 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:35 stassats: so dance and forget troubles 22:35:37 In`: perpetual motion does not exists 22:35:53 Posterdati: try #lispcafe or something 22:35:59 good point 22:36:41 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-28-60.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 22:36:51 -!- Bike [~Glossina@steams-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:37:11 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 22:38:42 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-38-0.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 22:39:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-247.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:39:20 #lisp can benefit from some comic relief from time to time. 22:39:24 -!- ln` is now known as ln|caprice13 22:39:40 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:39:52 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:26 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:32 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 22:42:14 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:43:10 antgreen [~green@dsl-207-112-125-176.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 22:43:59 -!- developernotes 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