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I figured you guys would know best. Best place to get started with Lisp? 01:46:21 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:47:04 Moleboy: "best" is hard. 01:47:26 Moleboy: Maybe and . 01:47:26 didi: Good place to get started? =D Decent? 01:47:33 Sweet, thanks! 01:48:04 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 01:48:30 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.157] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 01:53:07 -!- zz_karupanerura is now known as karupanerura 01:53:55 sellout- [~Adium@97-118-164-167.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:05 Moleboy: have you found http://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started ? 01:57:54 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@li283-143.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58:26 gmcastil [~user@ip-64-134-28-42.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:55 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.5.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:00:37 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D1F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:15:15 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 06:15:22 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 06:16:15 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:16:45 -!- jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:58 jayne [~jayne@freenode/staff/jayne] has joined #lisp 06:17:53 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 06:19:36 PuercoPop [PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b] has joined #lisp 06:20:38 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:28:24 Anyone aware of the status of ABCL on Android these days? Google suggests that some work was being done on it early 2013, but no further mailing list activity is detected. 06:29:13 still not there 06:29:41 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:42 Android is pretty complex target, especially if you don't have ready support for complete AoT compilation 06:30:15 any bytecode manipulation has to be redone to support DVM. Also, there's problem with too many methods in file 06:30:44 Is ABCL interpretation super slow then? I'd be happy with interpreted Common Lisp I think. 06:31:04 -!- Gooder` [~user@218.69.12.194] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:31:10  too many methods in file? er what?' 06:31:31 p_nathan1: it's related to internals of Dalvik Virtual Machine 06:32:13 there's a 16-bit index of methods in a .dex file (and you get one, 99% of the time) 06:32:31 I don't know how well ABCL would deal with it 06:32:52 also, ABCL uses custom classloaders, which would have to be redone at least partially 06:32:52 I saw that Google was testing a new runtime to replace Dalvik? 06:33:00 jewel: it's still dalvik 06:33:17 ART is generally a different implementation, but they are compatible 06:33:26 (except ART is much, much less stable) 06:33:50 You could just run a native lisp. 06:34:06 What are your UI requirements? 06:34:40 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 06:34:58 Well, what I'd like would be a REPL with keyboard and ability to load and save from file; then a 'syscall' mechanism to call into Android libraries as needed. 06:35:47 At the moment, obviously, it's strictly hobbyist, but I could imagine pushing forward to do production stuff for the right project. 06:35:49 Well, you might want to have a look at https://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ 06:36:05 It runs native progams and provides UI over an RPC bridge. 06:36:15 If you don't need anything fancy, it might do the tricky. 06:36:30 SL4A is very limited, though. But you could look up if mocl can be persuaded to make calls to JVM side, and generate apropriate bindings 06:37:34 Very true. mocl is an option, but it is really limited on the run-time behavior, AFAICT; it compiles CL down to C, I believe. 06:37:40 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:38:24 My stupid experiments with ABCL some time ago suggested that it's really what I want. 06:40:14 p_nathan1: well, ECL is a workable option. 06:42:40 Yea, I have to fuss with that at some point, I guess. 06:43:16 shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-hsuvavfmltdshyri] has joined #lisp 06:44:07 ECL has the advantage of supporting everything a native app can, and with a bit of Java essentially everything, and still has REPL 06:45:17 with mocl, well, I don't have access to docs, so I can't say about Android APIs, but it doesn't do REPL 06:45:35 *p_l* wouldn't mind if they released a version to generate non-mobile apps as well 06:51:50 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:52:17 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 06:58:59 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 07:00:27 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:06:38 ggole [~ggole@106-69-34-131.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:07:33 something tells me that the JVM isn't a friendly place to develop a common lisp interpreter, anyway 07:07:48 most android development is java, isn't it? 07:09:35 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: bbl] 07:09:56 <|3b|> java but not jvm (which is why abcl doesn't work) 07:10:16 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.13.194.141] has left #lisp 07:10:20 <|3b|> not that dalvik vm is better than jvm 07:10:31 -!- Oladon [~Oladon@c-98-245-40-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:12:08 ludocode [~quassel@108.175.232.32] has joined #lisp 07:12:24 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 mrSpec [~Spec@213-238-116-40.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 07:13:58 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@213-238-116-40.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Changing host] 07:13:58 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:14:21 -!- kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:15:01 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.31.77] has joined #lisp 07:15:53 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.31.77] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:01 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 07:17:27 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 07:17:30 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:19:15 przl [~przlrkt@p579232C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:04 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has joined #lisp 07:20:46 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:21:43 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:22:11 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:23:39 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 07:23:58 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-69-34-131.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 07:24:46 ggole [~ggole@106-69-34-131.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:24:53 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-36-139.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:23 Pyuruku [a2c349a1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.162.195.73.161] has joined #lisp 07:29:56 Hey all, I was wondering if there was an easy way to identify and extract sub lists... so say I called fun '(+ (+ 1 2) (* 3 0)). In it I would extract (+ 1 2) (* 3 0) and then call some other function on those two lists 07:30:18 I'm quite new to LISP, working on a project to simplify lisp expressions 07:30:35 my designs are getting a bit too convoluted though :/ 07:31:37 fangkui [~fangkui@124.207.241.10] has joined #lisp 07:31:43 you could probably use `cadr' and `caddr' 07:31:48       ,     ,    07:31:51  07:31:54 -!- fangkui [~fangkui@124.207.241.10] has left #lisp 07:32:12 what was that? 07:32:23 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:32:23 russian and chinese, i'd guess 07:32:23 *ski* stares blankly 07:33:14 ski, for '(+ (+ 1 2) (* 3 0)) wouldnt cadr return just +? 07:33:28 chinese is really cool if the second is the equivalent of the first :) 07:34:05 Pyuruku : depends on whether that is the datum passed or a form that is to evaluate to the passed datum 07:34:14 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34:21 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 07:34:39 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:40 it is passed 07:35:21 I was thinking of sort of building a list between operators, but that fails with something like '(+ (+ 1 2) 3 (* 3 0)) 07:35:37 i would get (+ 1 2 3) as one of my sub lists 07:35:44 (defun blah (expression) ..(cadr expression)..) 07:35:55 (blah '(+ (+ 1 2) (* 3 0))) 07:37:14 oh derp! 07:37:35 forgot how the structure of that list looks like 07:37:41 now using cadr makes sense... 07:37:46 You could just walk the list, testing if each element is a list or not? 07:37:47 thanks ski! 07:37:52 np 07:38:00 ggole: how can you test if its a list? 07:38:03 if it has a cdr? 07:38:08 atom or consp 07:40:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:42:15 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:42:22 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:17 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 07:43:40 why not listp? 07:43:52 -!- zacharias_ is now known as zacharias 07:44:01 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:44:20 -!- spacefrogg^ is now known as spacefrogg 07:44:23 Because nil is not a sublist 07:48:50 -!- banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:49:43 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:50:04 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:50:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.140.27] has joined #lisp 07:50:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@5.251.140.27] has quit [Changing host] 07:50:51 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 07:51:34 nilsi_ [~nilsi@222.93.44.214] has joined #lisp 07:52:39 *PuercoPop* nods 07:53:44 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 07:55:38 varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 07:57:19 -!- motionman 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[~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:17:52 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:18:18 nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.246.17.108] has joined #lisp 08:18:38 -!- harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-soafgylimsjbviel] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:20:21 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@129.Red-81-36-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:20:35 pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:11 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:24:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:25:52 -!- thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has left #lisp 08:26:15 thasc [~thasc@cpc3-croy20-2-0-cust376.croy.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:13 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:03 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:46 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 08:32:18 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:36 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 08:32:38 -!- tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:33:30 xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-lspigkxfczxigpxe] has joined #lisp 08:33:51 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #lisp 08:35:25 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:37:14 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:39:58 desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 08:40:40 isidore [~isidore@cpc5-with6-2-0-cust871.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:13 mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:32 H4ns: if it was Russian then it was rather non-grammatical. 08:46:07 -!- isidore [~isidore@cpc5-with6-2-0-cust871.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:46:30 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:48:37 -!- hiro3 [~hiro@p210079202073.cnh.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:53:32 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:54:14 Hy. I'm looking for somthing similar to a debug macro in C, where setting a #define will print debugging messages, and unsetting will clear the code so it doesn't slow sown compiled code. Google is only showing me how to debug macros... 08:54:38 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 261 seconds] 08:55:01 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-129.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:55:14 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 08:55:15 Kromitvs: First of all, have you actually measured that you check slows things down? 08:55:50 not really... I just assumed it would. 08:56:00 -!- loke`` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:9cce:9a50:e297:39e9] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:01 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:01 -!- sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:01 -!- Elvaron [~Elvaron@HSI-KBW-134-3-240-90.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:01 -!- ski [~md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:02 -!- sid_cypher [sid@s0.barwen.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:02 -!- oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:56:10 Kromitvs: I'd dare to guess that it's pretty much unmeasurable 08:56:28 It's better to keep the checks in-place. That way your code is safer too. 08:56:33 sshirokov [sshirokov@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe93:e02d] has joined #lisp 08:56:35 sid_cypher [sid@s0.barwen.ch] has joined #lisp 08:56:46 chr [~user@148.122.202.244] has joined #lisp 08:56:50 If you benchmark some specific high-performance loop, you can make the checks conditional at that point onlt. 08:57:22 Well, it's easy to write a macro to do that. 08:57:24 ski [~md9slj@129.16.29.79] has joined #lisp 08:57:44 oconnore [~eric@38.111.17.138] has joined #lisp 08:57:45 -!- nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:57:48 Zhivago: Yes, but I wanted to point out that in this case it's probably pointless to do so 08:58:01 I'm only starting with Lisp (school project). "make the checks conditional at that point onlt." is somewhat misterious... 08:58:09 Verbose logging can be pretty expensive. 08:58:47 Elvaron [~Elvaron@HSI-KBW-134-3-240-90.hsi14.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:23 sword [~user@c-24-21-33-225.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:30 Where's the assignment? Perhaps you misread it? 08:59:33 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:59:37 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:59:47 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 08:59:50 My original thouthg was to have a debug variable; when it was 1 I would get all the print/write output; and then I would put it to 0 to get the "final version" 09:00:27 I'm implementing minimax. I just have some print's along the code and have to keep commenting them and uncommenting... 09:01:23 You might find something like (when (> *log-level* 3) ...) useful. 09:01:53 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:02:03 Or (when *debug-foo* ...) if you're more interested in vertical features. 09:02:05 Urfin [~user@5.29.23.234] has joined #lisp 09:02:38 Then (let ((*debug-foo* t)) (my-code)) 09:02:46 So a simple macro will do, and I won't notice performance delays when setting it off? 09:03:03 *when setting debug off 09:05:44 <|3b|> depends on how you implement it, but probably not worth worrying about anyway 09:07:01 ok 09:07:17 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:07:39 Thanks. I'll try a mcro whith a log level and see how it goes. 09:07:57 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:08:03 nilsi__ [~nilsi@222.93.44.214] has joined #lisp 09:10:18 Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:11:02 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@46.246.17.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:12:10 <|3b|> having to recompile to change debug settings sounds annoying 09:12:21 -!- Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:12:37 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 09:16:23 -!- capisce_ [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:17:10 capisce [srodal@rs5.risingnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:26 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:18:27 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 09:18:43 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:18:52 -!- aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: ...] 09:19:20 well, it's a small project. I usually only use "load". I started compiling because clisp gives more warnings when compiling. How would you do it? 09:19:34 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 09:20:01 arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bsakszbpvcsyford] has joined #lisp 09:20:25 harish [~harish@175.156.197.71] has joined #lisp 09:21:04 isidore [~isidore@82-68-191-81.dsl.posilan.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:21 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:23:57 aerique [310225@xs8.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:25:55 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@94.159.197.246] has joined #lisp 09:25:56 Hermit [~hermit@unaffiliated/grpala] has joined #lisp 09:27:04 wz1000 [~zubin@182.64.107.51] has joined #lisp 09:27:09 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:28:18 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:28:34 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29:14 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 09:30:22 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30:58 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 09:31:08 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@94.159.197.246] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 09:33:11 <|3b|> Kromitvs: best way to work with CL is to develop interactively, define individual functions, test them, go on to next function, etc 09:33:36 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.105.165] has quit [Quit: home] 09:34:07 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:35:07 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37:09 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 09:41:58 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@75-120.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:44:40 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 09:45:47 Yes... It's not just CL. But as I'm starting sometimes is not very easy to a small bit of code, that needs diferent variables or uses recursion... 09:45:52 ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #lisp 09:47:30 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@75-120.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:48:25 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@75-120.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:50:13 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:51:13 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:55:01 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:55:35 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 09:58:11 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 09:59:33 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-lspigkxfczxigpxe] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:59:45 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:00:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:01:18 stepnem_ [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 10:01:58 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:01:58 -!- stepnem_ is now known as stepnem 10:02:07 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@118.163.141.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:02:08 -!- xenophon [~user@64.124.65.162] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:02:08 xenophon` [~user@64.124.65.162] has joined #lisp 10:02:08 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:26 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 10:02:30 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:02:32 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 10:03:02 is there a way to inquire at runtime if SBCL supports the --compress-core option? 10:03:03 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:03:35 LoicLisp [~loic@29.17.122.78.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:38 Hello 10:05:29 desophos [~desophos@n163h85.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 10:06:15 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:07:05 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:07:39 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:08:50 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:11:17 hitecnologys: therep 10:12:33 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13:22 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 10:13:57 -!- [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:15:40 [SLB] [~slabua@unaffiliated/slabua] has joined #lisp 10:19:29 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:21:32 stassats: t 10:22:01 had any luck with commonqt libraries? 10:22:47 i've found that putting anything into system32 is behaving quite weird, i couldn't load freeglut.dll from there, but could load it when given a full path from another directory 10:23:19 i also have found that the there's no problem with threads, but with running sbcl from inside emacs 10:23:34 stassats: not really, I was so busy yesterday that I hadn't got a chance to try it but now I have some free time and I'm going to try this again. 10:23:35 i.e., if i even just run it from eshell, the gui hangs 10:23:53 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:23:55 sbcl threads work under windows? Wow. 10:23:58 sbcl or ccl, no difference here 10:24:49 perhaps it has some special relationship with console 10:25:11 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:25:16 seems like having too many dirs to traverse in the asdf source registry is a boot time killer 10:25:48 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 10:26:14 stassats: I need to quickly finish one more thing, it'll take 40 min or so, and then I'll be right back. 10:28:28 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:33:13 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined #lisp 10:35:53 cnl [~pony@bitdiddle.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:54 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:48 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 10:48:22 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 10:50:00 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:56:27 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:57:50 lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has joined #lisp 10:59:52 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 11:05:48 -!- wz1000 [~zubin@182.64.107.51] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:06:26 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:08:13 MoALTz [~no@host81-153-181-250.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 11:08:42 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 11:09:50 -!- MoALTz_ [~no@host86-142-125-35.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:10:00 sc00fy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:10:36 -!- scoofy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 270 seconds] 11:11:08 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:33 abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 11:14:52 -!- isidore [~isidore@82-68-191-81.dsl.posilan.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:14:58 Is there a conventional/standard way to mutate a list so that all referencing see the mutation (ie doesn't return a new identity); 11:15:01 this is the code I wrote 11:15:02 https://gist.github.com/burrows-labs/7429288 11:15:43 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:15:50 straycat [~straycat@82-68-191-81.dsl.posilan.com] has joined #lisp 11:16:29 you mean you want to prepend a new element? 11:16:32 TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:16:37 Appending is fine. 11:16:45 yati [~yati@122.170.31.201] has joined #lisp 11:16:48 appending is slow for lists 11:17:09 I don't see how prepending could work, I could build a closure around a single list? 11:17:17 (defun prepend (item list) (psetf (car list) item (cdr list) (cons (car list) (cdr list)))) 11:18:28 abunchofdollarsi: the answer is NO, there is no way. 11:18:43 abunchofdollarsi: thats because list = (or null cons) and NIL is immutable. 11:19:07 (let ((list '())) (prepend 42 list)) ; fails lamentably. 11:19:13 (cons 'my-home-backed-list nil) 11:19:18 ogamita: if you looked at the paste, you would know that abunchofdollarsi is aware of that 11:19:58 Thanks stassats 11:20:13 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:20:25 Hi. I stumbled upon this signal synthesis toolkit called soundlab: http://mr.gy/software/soundlab/ I cloned the repo. I can't figure out how to use it though - as in have the functions defined in that lib available to my repl/programs. 11:20:30 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:20:32 Then once you consider only cons cells, you can easily push ont the cdr of the first cell: (push 42 (cdr cells)) 11:20:51 -!- lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:20:52 If you don't care keeping the first element in the first position. 11:20:59 The toplevel dir has a file called package.lisp and soundlab.asd, if that helps 11:21:07 -!- Ambit [~chatzilla@c-50-161-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:30 push will break other references? 11:21:35 yati: (push #P"/path/to/soundlab/" asdf:*central-registry*) (ql:quickload :soundlab) 11:21:42 Oh I see, onto the cdr. 11:21:42 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 11:21:44 Cool. 11:22:10 abunchofdollarsi: references are to the first cons cell. 11:22:15 Yes. 11:22:23 And this is the cell we mutate with push cdr. 11:23:07 You may want to use rather (defstrut mylist head tail) allowing for empty lists: (make-mylist) and allowing you to add elements on the head or on the tail. 11:23:23 or some variant. 11:24:09 stassats, I think I experience the same problem with apps using freeglut.dll as you mentioned. Hans when start from emacs/SLIME. 11:24:50 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:25:05 STilda: freeglut.dll somewhat worked for me, that's why i tried using it to cross-check, but not qt 11:25:26 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:32 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:25:43 maybe it tries to print something to the console and there is none and it hangs? 11:25:50 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:25:56 but it doesn't print a thing when it works from cmd.exce 11:26:42 slime could connect to sbcl running on cmd.exe, i can add that to the known issues list 11:27:51 Lists in cl are always passed to function by reference? 11:28:55 Reference to cons cell is passed by value. 11:28:57 All objects are passed by reference, if you want to use this terminology. 11:29:07 ogamita: By value 11:29:24 It passes a copy of the reference to the cons cell? 11:29:29 Yes. 11:29:36 I see. 11:29:46 abunchofdollarsi: Exactly like Java does it, if that helps 11:29:49 It is easier if you think like Java. 11:29:57 abunchofdollarsi: the point is that it's not a variable or a place that's passed as parameter to functions. 11:30:00 Unfamiliar with java.. 11:30:10 abunchofdollarsi: Exactly like Javascript does it :-) 11:30:25 ('Cause all three languages - CL, Scheme, Java - have common designer...) 11:30:25 It's variables that are passed by reference. The notion is meaningless in lisp. 11:32:32 abunchofdollarsi: it's similar for typing. Most discussion about types is irrelevant to lisp, since in lisp (and similar dynamic languages), types are not associated to variables, but to values. We should actually use different words for types(1) in C++ and types(2) in lisp, because they have nothing in common. 11:33:04 ASau: do they? 11:33:34 i would think that The Great Quux was only the author of specifications 11:33:47 ogamita, Yes that makes sense. 11:34:24 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:34:30 stassats: that's enough :) 11:36:01 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D42C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:15 ASau: even if the languages themselves were designed by other people? 11:36:29 and are evidently completely dissimilar 11:36:49 stassats: Steele. 11:37:11 Don't get that picky. 11:37:13 ogamita: aka the great quux 11:37:23 stassats, I tried freeglut only in the scope of cl-opengl things. Not even sure that problem exectly in freeglut. But my apps hang when I start from slime first time. After aborting and starting again - it works perfectly. It also works if start from cmd.exe, as you described. 11:37:32 I didn't know this aka. :-) 11:37:40 -!- abunchofdollarsi [~abunchofd@l33t.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:37:41 picky? really? 11:38:46 It is really hard to tell who designed what in the big mud ball. 11:39:01 stassats, I have tried to debug it and found that cl-opengl enters its main loop by some different paths of calls. One leads to hangs and the other works fine. Could not find the reason though. 11:39:12 Making one thing of a dozen is a design work still. 11:39:49 and you are able to tell who designed argument passing? 11:40:55 matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:08 STilda: looks like it hangs at DefWindowProc for me 11:41:31 jackdaniel [~jack@hellsgate.pl] has joined #lisp 11:41:35 and it probably deadlocks 11:41:39 o/ 11:41:52 stassats: Steve Russel, most probably. 11:42:09 But he may just have copied what was in FLPL and before that in IPL. 11:42:23 ogamita: i say it doesn't matter 11:42:26 the assembler sources for those routines. 11:42:28 Yes. 11:42:48 just that i don't like statements like something is a fact 11:43:16 But what I mean, is that it probably has not been intentially designed, it just went naturally given the assembler code, and was inherited from there on. 11:45:01 another interesting observation, it only hangs from M-x eshell, but not from M-x shell 11:45:28 echo-area [~user@123.120.254.61] has joined #lisp 11:46:48 -!- alabaster [~kubov@146.185.148.80] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:48:08 gko_ [gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:48:30 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 11:48:40 stassats, hm, I just do not know what is that (beginner). I use C-x C-e in slime to start it. As for paths to freeglut.dll I had to put 32 bit version into system folder for 64 bit dll versions to make it work. 11:49:16 frx [~frx@93-138-106-71.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:49:21 neither do i know what it is 11:50:11 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 11:50:53 for me it enters main loop and idle events are happening but window is not properly initialized or not initialized at all. So everything that is called from idle just ignored in some way. 11:53:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 11:57:16 i see no windows at all and i can't interrupt sbcl 11:57:23 sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has joined #lisp 11:59:13 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:59:36 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:03 eshell is a strange shell, unix-wise. 12:01:23 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:52 but it something with sub-processes, since the on started by inferior-lisp is bad too 12:02:45 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-36-139.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:03:46 stassats, do not see window as well, but main loop is running. Checked. 12:04:04 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D42C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04:47 OK, I'm back. 12:05:05 It took a bit more time. 12:05:14 added to http://common-lisp.net/project/commonqt/#known-issues 12:07:44 ogamita: try term+ 12:08:04 stassats: how is commonqt related to Emacs and Slime? 12:08:15 hitecnologys: beats me 12:09:18 stassats: OK, I'll just continue trying to make my sbcl see dll then. 12:09:49 try adding it to the PATH, not to system32 12:10:00 and what error code do you get? 12:10:23 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-228-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:26 sbcl just shows error codes, not messages, on library loading, i fixed that yesterday 12:11:45 -!- sc00fy [~scoofy@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:51 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:14:06 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:15:16 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:16:00 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 12:16:01 Damn it, windows machine is occupied. 12:16:41 Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has joined #lisp 12:16:44 mc40 [~mcheema@164.138.80.236] has joined #lisp 12:17:34 though, running qt designer from eshell works 12:17:35 Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0054.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 12:18:23 Error code was 126. 12:18:37 that means it's not found 12:18:44 Hmm. 12:24:35 Just try (sb-posix:setenv "PATH" (format nil "~a;~a" (sb-ext:posix-getenv "PATH") (sb-ext:native-namestring (merge-pathnames "commonqt-libs/" (user-homedir-pathname)))) 1) 12:24:46 putting it into .sbclrc 12:24:54 (require :sb-posix) may have to be needed also 12:27:46 OK, I'll this. 12:28:35 eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has joined #lisp 12:31:27 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:32:15 So, I'm trying to define my simple debug macro... But having some problems. What am I doing wrong? http://pastebin.com/MdRTSrxX 12:32:35 -!- rk[IOWA] is now known as rk[NEBRASKA] 12:32:59 your debug level is resolved at compile-time 12:33:27 and you should use ,@fun 12:33:39 and should really be &body body .. ,@body 12:34:24 Kromitvs: If you want to delay computation, I would use a thunk. 12:35:53 TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:12 Thanks, stassats. What do you mean didi? 12:36:51 but you may want it to be resolved at ct 12:37:28 I'd rather use *features* and #+/#- to do debug. It just looks prettier this way. 12:37:35 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:37:44 Kromitvs: Well, I see you have a couple of `print' expressions that you want to pass to another function. So you might want to so something like (dbg 7 (lambda () (print ...) (print ...))). Of course, this doesn't mean this is the best way to solve your particular problem. 12:38:26 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:55 rstandy [~rastandy@81-174-35-146.v4.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 12:39:22 didi: i don't see why you would suggest that 12:39:30 I want to print some debug values. But be able to switch them all off, and only print the expected result by changing a variable (instead of comment/uncomment prints). 12:40:13 I'm a lisp begginer (if you didn't figur it out already...) 12:40:27 Kromitvs: You can use a fancy format. 12:41:14 Kromitvs: PAIP has one. I'll find it for you. One sec. 12:41:23 Kromitvs: do you want to change it and not recompile? 12:41:26 thanks 12:41:39 because even checking a variable is expensive, you may want to avoid compiling it in 12:42:14 well, this is is small project. But if there is a way that doens't require recompiling I would certainly like to know about it 12:42:31 Kromitvs: 12:42:39 you need to expand into a run-time check of *debug-level* 12:44:43 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:44:52 btw, is there a way to know exactly that tail recursive function optimized (in a way it is supposed to be)? Idea to look into assembly make me not happy. 12:45:03 Kromitvs: If you are using SBCL, you might have a problem defining the `debug' function, as `debug' is a locked symbol. 12:45:22 STilda: run it many times, if it doesn't exhaust the stack, then it's optimized 12:45:35 -!- nilsi__ [~nilsi@222.93.44.214] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:45:36 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:46:07 Kromitvs: you are probably better off learning to use the debugger and dedicating yourself to something else. 12:47:01 the debugger doesn't supersede logging 12:47:42 I'm using clisp 12:47:46 stassats, ok, that is for sure one of ways 12:47:55 debugger you say? 12:48:33 I only know of (step function) 12:48:55 Is there a real debugger? 12:49:27 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-17-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:49:28 where? 12:50:47 sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 12:50:48 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-154-168.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 12:50:48 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:50:56 prxq: what debugger are you talking about? 12:52:27 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 12:52:31 well, if an error happens, you end up in the debugger. Same thing if you put a (break) anywhere in your code and that part gets executed. 12:52:55 Usually, doing (/ 1 0) is enough to land you in the debugger. 12:53:05 at the repl, I mean. 12:53:14 you get backtraces, etc. 12:53:30 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 12:53:50 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:00 Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan247163.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:36 backtraces are still kind of encrypted for me; althouthg I haven't experimented much with break (or /0...) 12:56:34 check out the manual. Pro tip: slime has a nice debugger interface, especially if you use it with sbcl. 12:56:35 you can inspect variables saved on the stack, restart some frames, visit their source locations 12:57:25 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:58:01 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:00:25 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:01:10 I'll have to look in the manual then to decode the backtrace. At the start that all just seems to encoded. 13:01:11 btw is there a (simple) way to recompile a whole asdf system with (debug 3), for tests? 13:01:23 Well thanks for the help 13:01:26 -!- otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:01:32 I know about C-u C-c C-k for a single file... 13:02:02 Joreji [~thomas@186-190.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:05 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139884 is probably the cheapest way for run-time checks 13:02:21 dim: sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 13:02:27 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@shop3.diku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:02:51 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:02:56 -!- yati [~yati@122.170.31.201] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:03:08 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 13:03:26 reading its documentation thanks to describe at the REPL ;-) 13:04:00 kaan [~wall@134.2.241.249] has joined #lisp 13:04:05 btw, I didn't push that to planet.lisp.org, but I guess it's still of interest to you guys, as it's about my CL development, pgloader: http://tapoueh.org/blog/2013/11/12-migrating-sakila 13:04:53 stassats: there's a type in the docstring for sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy, Assing, first word 13:04:53 hello, i've got a newbie question. how can i do functions of higher order? (defun a (f) (f 10)) 13:05:12 funcall 13:05:20 kaan: (funcall #'f 10) 13:05:22 now i want to do something like (a (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) 13:05:35 or (funcall (function f) 10) 13:05:36 dim: thanks 13:06:16 teggi [~teggi@123.20.102.167] has joined #lisp 13:06:20 i should do a typo-check for all docstrings 13:07:04 is there a CL (interface to a) spell checker? 13:07:39 no idea, but i'll do it using flyspell + something to output all docstring into a file 13:10:09 I had to stop using flyspell, but that might be a problem only with macosx 13:10:20 thank you dim, that worked... lisp is some kind of weird.. :-) 13:11:09 well yeah, but at least it's pretty well documented 13:11:25 and the community, despite what I've read, is quite welcoming and helpful 13:11:41 normally, i am a haskell guy, but for university i have to use lisp 13:11:58 I wish I could use Lisp at uni. 13:12:00 beware that lisp might as well become your favorite language ;-) 13:12:28 sooooo many brackets ahhh :-P 13:14:52 dim: yay 13:14:59 pgloader looks very nice 13:15:25 otwieracz [~gonet9@v6.gen2.org] has joined #lisp 13:15:30 kaan: as someone who has to write javascript on occation at work, ))))) is way better than }()['foo']}}() :) 13:15:34 thanks, I hope it does, because I now being to realize I've really been pushing quite some work into it... 13:16:15 pavelpenev: well parens are more of a hassle for me in C than in lisp 13:16:41 result = pstrdup(NameStr(((Form_pg_extension_control) GETSTRUCT(tuple))->ctlname)); 13:16:45 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:16:50 that's real C code pasted straight from the PostgreSQL sources 13:17:04 pavelpenev, there are always worse things in life ;-) 13:17:49 kaan: also, you need an editor (preferably emacs) that helps you with the parentheses. Then it is not a problem. 13:17:54 fe[nl]ix: in particular I quite like the way the parser is done (thanks to pjb), which encourages clean internal API and should make it easy for lispers to find their way 13:17:59 kaan: yes, you might have too few brackets. My day job is python, and significant whitespace is just a pain. 13:18:37 fe[nl]ix: take any test file, pass it to (pgloader.parser::parse-commands-from-file "/path/to/command.load"), and you have lisp code to read that shows how to use the whole pgloader internal API ;-) 13:18:59 prxq, i use vim, it's okay. and pavelpenev significant whitespace FTW ! 13:20:27 kaan: Significant whitespace is the single biggest mistake python made, rivaled only by having statements be different from expressions. In combination that makes python lambdas pretty much useless, as well as many other unintended side effects. 13:20:56 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:21:27 what about the GIL? or the single-dispatch OOP? 13:21:27 but thats OT 13:21:47 I've been using python as my main platform for a decade, I am so happy to have finally found DL. 13:22:01 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:22:02 dim: the GIL is an implementation detail, isn't it? 13:22:06 hrm. I meant CL, obviously 13:22:16 pavelpenev: in theory, yes. not in practice. 13:22:49 well, somebody could pick cl-python up and use it in production 13:22:58 dim: I meant, suppose the python folks decide to have a standard, would it include the GIL as a requirement? 13:23:16 anyway, OT again :) 13:24:07 I wonder if I will have to have a look at cl-python to re-enable writing custom transformation functions for pgloader in python 13:24:30 given the context, I wonder if cl-awk wouldn't actually make pgloader users even happier ;-) 13:25:19 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:25:37 LiamH [~none@129-2-129-146.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:25:45 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan247163.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:26:33 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:27:07 why would you want cl-awk ? 13:27:44 well, i can see docstring typos, but sb-thread:thread-emphemeral-p is a bit embarrassing 13:28:11 doubly so that fixing a typo would mean breaking backwards compatibility 13:28:11 ikki [~ikki@201.141.72.88] has joined #lisp 13:28:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:00 does anybody have the whole of quicklisp nearby? 13:29:08 fe[nl]ix: in the pgloader grammar you can use transformation functions that are applied against the data, users might want to be able to implement them in awk python rather than CL (used to be allowed in python in pgloader v2) 13:29:56 that's not me 13:30:03 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 13:30:16 google says that nobody does use it, at least that's good 13:32:15 stassats: Just another data point 13:32:49 yeah, sbcl-only 13:33:29 and i'm only looking for detectable typos 13:33:43 "Eye have a spelling chequer, It came with my Pea Sea." 13:36:05 Kromitvs: http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger 13:36:57 Kromitvs: the trick to debug with clisp, is NOT to compile the code you want to debug. 13:37:04 Then the stack frames are limpid. 13:37:43 Kromitvs: the alternative of course is to use slime and its sldb. It works nicely with almost all the implementations nowadays. 13:37:56 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38:14 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 13:38:31 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:40:26 except for clisp 13:40:38 stassats: I've got almost a whole quicklisp. Perhaps a couple of months late, not more. 13:40:45 stassats: nowadays, it works nicely with clisp too. 13:41:00 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:41:14 if that's nice, i don't want to see what bad looks like 13:41:17 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 13:43:05 kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:43:45 sb-sys:invalidate-descriptor so far wins the most typos in a docstring, 3 typos for two lines 13:44:08 stassats: and nowadays, there are good grammar checkers too. Eg. http://www.grammarly.com but it needs more than a single sentence :-( 13:47:30 loke__ [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:9cce:9a50:e297:39e9] has joined #lisp 13:51:25 ccorn [~ccorn@hosting.trifork.nl] has joined #lisp 13:51:29 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:52:33 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:53:51 scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:12 hello people 13:54:21 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-hg-mapped-0054.ethz.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:13 -!- kaan [~wall@134.2.241.249] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 13:55:32 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:47 hello individual 13:56:33 hello ogamita 13:57:19 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 13:58:06 ;-) 13:58:22 davazp [~user@92.251.223.120.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 14:00:25 xotedend [~quassel@23-25-110-173-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:14 -!- karupanerura is now known as zz_karupanerura 14:01:25 bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 Strange. SLIME's M-tab fuzzy completion finds `asdf/operate:load-system', but no `asdf:load-system', even though `asdf:load-system' exists and the echo-area prints its signature. 14:01:49 -!- bulibuta [~bulibuta@irofti.net] has left #lisp 14:03:26 its home package is asdf/operate 14:03:30 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@hosting.trifork.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 14:05:21 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 14:05:24 oic 14:05:41 I'm having a discussion with pkuhong on Reddit where he claims that SORT is guaranteed to modify a vector in-place, while I claim it's not guaranteed. Now, if it had been anyone else, I'd be sure of myself, but now I'm not so sure. Am I misreading the spec? And if so, how? 14:06:06 clhs sort 14:06:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sort_.htm 14:06:31 «sort and stable-sort destructively sort...» 14:06:34 it would be pretty stupid not to make sort on vector to be destructive 14:06:35 I've read it. A lot. And as far as I can tell, I'm right. But how coudl he be wrong onm this? 14:06:36 q.e.d. 14:06:37 normanrichards [~textual@99.184.77.27] has joined #lisp 14:06:55 There is a note at the bottom: 14:06:57 "If sequence is a vector, the result might or might not be simple, and might or might not be identical to sequence." 14:08:31 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:05 clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has joined #lisp 14:09:35 Well, theorically, if you sort a sequence of mutable object, you could copy the mutable object over one another, to avoid modifying the sequence. 14:09:52 But this would be a very strong and bad side effect, which is clearly not intended for CL:SORT. 14:10:03 -!- sytse [sytse@swielinga.nl] has quit [Quit: reboot] 14:10:22 Therefore the only case where SORT will NOT modify its argument, it's when the elements are already in sorted order! 14:10:35 ogamita: It isn't? Then why did they take the effort to write that note? Also, the example code explitly SETQ's the result. 14:10:52 notes are not actually a part of the standard 14:10:56 Notice that for lists, CL:SORT may just modify the CAR cells, without changing the list structure, or may on the other hand change the CDR cells, without modifying the CAR cells. 14:10:59 Or it can do both. 14:11:53 stassats: Fair enough, but this statement also strongly suggests that a different vector could be returned: "If sequence is a vector, the result is a vector that has the same actual array element type as sequence." 14:12:10 hiroaki [~hiroaki@p54833F61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:12:13 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:12:18 copying a non-simple vector into a simple one can be quite more efficient 14:12:52 loke__: Interesting. Indeed, that seems to mean sort could be non destructive. 14:13:12 stassats: Right. So relying on SORT modifying a vector in-place would be wrong, yes? And as such, shouldn't SBCL warn if you don't? (like it does for sorting lists) 14:13:35 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:13:58 Unfortunately, this is not something conforming programs can take advantage of, but on the contrary, that they must defend against! 14:14:03 -!- clmsy [~clmsy@212.57.9.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:14:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:55 (let ((result (sort original lessp))) (unless (eq original result) (replace original result)) original) is needed if original may be a non-simple or displayed vector. 14:14:59 or adjustable vector. 14:15:14 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 14:15:37 if only there was something like autoconf for lisp 14:16:04 fenlix: Oh dear... Why? (note: I absolutely despise autoconf) 14:16:26 it works very well 14:16:37 On the other hand, there's this sentence in the description of sort (therefore stronger than the note): "In the case of a vector argument, this is accomplished by permuting the elements in place." which indicates that the original is modified to be sorted when sort returns. 14:16:56 ogamita: Yeah, but read the sentence that just preceeds it 14:17:02 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@p54833F61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17:20 "The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases.". Sure. 14:17:27 Note: "can" 14:17:32 can <= must 14:17:49 No. Then whey would say "is" 14:18:39 And I was wrong about setting the CAR, since "In the case of a list, the list is destructively reordered in the same manner as for nreverse.", which means setting the CDR. 14:18:41 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:12 ogamita: NREVERSE does not specify in what way the list is (or isn't) destrctured 14:19:17 destructed 14:19:37 The CAN is there only for non (or vector list) sequences. What does sbcl do when sorting non vector or list sequences? It can destory them, or not. 14:20:17 Ah right. 14:20:21 So I wasn't wrong. 14:20:21 ogamita: They never explicitly state that, and there are several other things that suggest thaat you can't rely on this. Including the note. 14:20:47 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:56 loke__: the two sentences following "The sorting operation can be destructive in all cases." seem very clear to me. 14:21:04 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:24 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 14:22:10 ogamita: To me as well. It says it _can_ be destructive. Not that it is. Besides, what about the note? And what about the fact that they clarify the type of the returned vector, or the fact that the example reassigns the variable? Are all of those things moot because of a badly worded "can"? 14:22:12 But they apply only when the first sentence is active, when the operation is destructive. When the operation is not destructive, the note applies. 14:22:18 Yes. 14:22:21 We agree. 14:22:22 Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan247163.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:01 -!- STilda [bca2a70f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.188.162.167.15] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:23:25 Now what does that mean about sorting immutable data? Could we expect an implementation that has read-only immutable data to return a sorted copy? (Nah!) 14:24:04 ogamita: We could, but that would be outside the spec, since (possibly) destructive operations are not defined for immutable data. 14:24:42 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:49 :-) 14:25:29 Let's say for example that you want to implement a CL in Haskell or Erlang. One might implement an array in terms of an underlying array, where you'd return a new array after sorting. (esoteric example, but perhaps useful) 14:25:31 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:35 Now, one thing that's not specified, is under what circumstances sort does or doesn't modify its argument. 14:26:16 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 14:26:22 Notably, it may behave differently depending on the object, the optimization level, the time (eg. when about to garbage collect, in a copying garbage collector, it would copy the objects instead of sorting in place). 14:26:49 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-167-164.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:26:52 Indeed, we can imagine a number of situations where it would be advantageous to do that, not only underlying immutable data. 14:27:39 -!- LiamH [~none@129-2-129-146.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:30:05 ccorn [~ccorn@hosting.trifork.nl] has joined #lisp 14:30:51 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 14:31:39 -!- normanrichards 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[~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:15 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:24:26 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28:04 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-22-63.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 -!- ircbrowse [~chrisdone@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:29:43 -!- gko_ [gko@114-32-172-194.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:29:56 ircbrowse [~chrisdone@2a01:4f8:150:5307::2] has joined #lisp 16:30:10 gko_ [~gko@192.161.167.73] has joined #lisp 16:34:00 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-bsakszbpvcsyford] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:34:48 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@94.137.61.79] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:35:19 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-24-22-63.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:38:16 -!- fourOfTwelve [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:39:23 dented42 [~dented42@166.70.24.149] has joined #lisp 16:39:37 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:45:58 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 16:46:23 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 16:47:10 -!- xotedend [~quassel@23-25-110-173-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:55 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan247163.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:48:20 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 16:49:17 -!- ikki [~ikki@201.141.72.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:50:44 a question on buildpp and quicklisp. I am trying to test out what Xach spells out here but for a local project http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18917067/how-to-use-buildapp-in-combination-with-quicklisp 16:51:44 it i am loading the local project and then creating a manifest file. when i try to load it into buildapp with --load-system, it fails and says it can't find it 16:53:27 any idea why it would be missing from the manifest file? the error is "Component [local project] not found" 16:54:29 nicdev: buildapp does not automatically load quicklisp. could that be the issue? 16:54:58 meingbg [d4b5d48a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.212.181.212.138] has joined #lisp 16:55:05 yeah, might have to asdf:initialize-source-registry or something 16:55:28 just loading quicklisp like from the .sbclrc file should do 16:55:37 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:36 -!- teggi [~teggi@123.20.102.167] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:35 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02:09 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-hsuvavfmltdshyri] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 17:03:35 I'm looking for a framework/language/utility/setup for a web application that would allow automatic updates to propagate from UI all the way to db and to other UI elements affected. I don't know where to begin. 17:03:35 xotedend [~quassel@23-25-110-173-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 -!- rstandy [~rastandy@81-174-35-146.v4.ngi.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:08:33 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 -!- gko_ [~gko@192.161.167.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:10:11 meingbg: UncommonWeb has something like that, IIRC. 17:10:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:10:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:36 -!- mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-orafhhisxmhqxcar] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:10:53 mcsontos [mcsontos@nat/redhat/x-yqzcucodbpcasyca] has joined #lisp 17:11:19 -!- xotedend [~quassel@23-25-110-173-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13:24 Vicfred [~Vicfred@187.206.115.227] has joined #lisp 17:16:29 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-240-228-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:16:43 segv- [~mb@95-91-240-228-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:16 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 17:17:22 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:17:46 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 17:18:05 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:21:02 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:21:42 pierre1 [~pierre1@179.218.154.208] has joined #lisp 17:22:21 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:23:52 Ralt__ [52f7b8af@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.247.184.175] has joined #lisp 17:24:13 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:24:44 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@ucrwpa1-fs-36-44.bulk.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 -!- Ralt__ [52f7b8af@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.82.247.184.175] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:05 H4ns: i don't think the issue is quicklisp as you can see in the link i posted where Xach explains how to use it with buildapp. I figured out a way to go around this by providing the local project as --asdf-path 17:27:09 is UCW still maintained/in use? 17:29:31 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@hosting.trifork.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 17:29:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:29:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 -!- zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:30:57 -!- Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:31:03 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 17:31:12 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-238.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:54 slyrus: IMO no/probably yes 17:32:07 -!- willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:33:38 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-lygwbuvutjsxucvy] has joined #lisp 17:33:41 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:35:18 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:35:44 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 17:37:16 regarding buildapp, etc., I'd like to standardize the use of UIOP's restore-image and its *pre-image-hook*. 17:37:16 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:37:23 I find it incredibly useful. 17:37:46 I mean *image-dump-hook* and *image-restore-hook* 17:38:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:34 You can modularize your project's initialization. 17:39:39 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:39:43 -!- Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:40:04 mc40_ [~mcheema@164.138.80.236] has joined #lisp 17:40:15 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:40:22 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 -!- Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:40:53 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:41:26 Praise [~Fat@unaffiliated/praise] has joined #lisp 17:41:54 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@164.138.80.236] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:41:54 -!- mc40_ is now known as mc40 17:42:40 frx [~frx@93-138-159-248.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 17:43:57 sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:53 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:46:01 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 17:46:36 ogamita: Thanks for the hint. What is this feature called? 17:48:38 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53:27 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-lygwbuvutjsxucvy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:56:18 Ambit [~chatzilla@c-50-161-33-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:54 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 17:58:15 -!- straycat [~straycat@82-68-191-81.dsl.posilan.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:02:17 -!- normanrichards [~textual@cpe-24-27-51-104.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:02:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:03:48 kristof [~kristof@unaffiliated/kristof] has joined #lisp 18:04:15 zxq9 [~ceverett@206-169-73-202.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:11 cory786 [~cory@PAT98.wifi.utoledo.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:03 Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #lisp 18:12:38 DoctorDude [~Jake@unaffiliated/doctordude] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:18:23 -!- ZabaQ [~ZabaQ@86.63.2.14] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian - www.trillian.im ~] 18:23:04 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.223.120.threembb.ie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:44 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 18:25:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:26:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:05 alexshendi [~loongson@HSI-KBW-078-043-199-120.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:31:23 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:28 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:34:30 banjara [~Adium@unaffiliated/banjara] has joined #lisp 18:34:32 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:37:04 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:38:15 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 18:40:07 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ookxutbfkcaoppyc] has joined #lisp 18:40:25 -!- gzg [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:41:47 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-67-176-62-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:42:03 meingbg: I don't remember UncommonWeb very well, having only tried it once more than 7 years ago. 18:42:27 But IIRC, once you define the views (or "presentation"), it can convert data between the view and the model. 18:43:21 pjb: Is there a persistence layer as well? Does converting data form view to model mean that it ends up on disk? 18:44:14 *from view to model 18:44:24 meingbg: I don't remember UncommonWeb very well, having only tried it once more than 7 years ago. 18:44:45 pjb: ok, I'll look into it. Thanks! 18:45:21 -!- cory786 [~cory@PAT98.wifi.utoledo.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:46:15 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:46:42 willyfrog [~willyfrog@146.255.102.14.gigas.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:37 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.201.4.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:49:17 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 18:50:45 fiveop [~fiveop@p54AF47FB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:30 -!- killmaster [killmaster@unaffiliated/killmaster/x-109233] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:52:05 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-80-250.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:14 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ookxutbfkcaoppyc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52:32 killmaster [~killmaste@89-181-151-48.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 18:56:43 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:57:29 sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has joined #lisp 18:58:45 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #lisp 18:58:46 dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:59:25 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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[~fredmorco@cm56-209-5.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:50:39 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:54:02 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@75-120.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:37 hi 20:55:33 please I've got problem quickloading antik: READ error during COMPILE-FILE :ASCII dtream decoding error... I think it's utf8 related 20:56:15 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:57:26 seangrove [~user@2600:1010:b014:4afd:a026:aaf9:3176:cc95] has joined #lisp 20:59:43 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:59:49 dcxi [~dcxi@218.Red-83-61-33.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:14 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-cagusfrsudozbdpq] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:01:04 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-jvslwxnmkkwicqpw] has joined #lisp 21:01:57 let's say I would like to build a command-line (unix-y) application to manage some of my files... basically, the parse-operate-writeback kind of thing. is it quite hard to interface with the outside world or is it just me? 21:02:02 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:25 basically i get the feeling that the common lisp is more a computing environment rather a programming language 21:02:35 fredmorcos: um, it's quite easy 21:02:53 same old thing. you open files, you read them, you write them, you close them 21:03:50 dlowe, that is OK. what i am talking about is things like getting the arguments passed on the command line is "implementation dependent" 21:04:17 dlowe, also, creating an executable binary means dumping the state of the computing environment with your program loaded in 21:04:19 fredmorcos: you're going to ask yourself if you really care about implementation dependence. Most library writers do, most app writers don't 21:05:03 dlowe, good point 21:05:18 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:05:29 fredmorcos: you could also say that a C compiler creates a non-running computing environment, and then dumps that to disk 21:05:51 dlowe, that i will have to disagree with :) 21:05:58 fredmorcos: You might try Didiers CLON library for dealing with command-line options / dumping a standalone binary. 21:06:16 fredmorcos: uiop and asdf's program-op are you friend 21:06:20 admittedly, you get a lot more baggage with a lisp image than you do with libc linked in 21:06:20 (I think there is a name-clash with CLON  Didiers is the Command-Line Option Nuker) 21:06:27 CLON is fancy. My own command-line-arguments library works, too 21:06:38 Fare: Theres a program-op now? 21:06:42 If you like fancy, definitely get CLON. 21:06:57 sellout: since last february, released with ASDF 2.27 aka ASDF 3. 21:07:09 *sellout-* <- for when you want answers over a year out of date. 21:07:24 2.27 was the initial pre-release of ASDF 3. Actual ASDF 3.0 was in may. 21:07:24 I hope they're command-line parsing libraries! what I was hoping for was getting argv into a list, and doing the parsing myself as an exercise 21:07:43 if you use program-op, your arguments are in *command-line-arguments* 21:07:47 needing a library just to get argv in an implementation independent way is........ 21:08:03 actually, if you use uiop, which program-op does. 21:08:16 what is program-op and uiop? 21:08:17 fredmorcos: CLON does all the parsing stuff, defaults, --help output, etc. 21:08:18 program-op used to exist only for ECL, now it's available for all. 21:08:32 uiop is the runtime library used by asdf3. 21:08:47 program-op is the way you create programs with asdf3. 21:08:55 Fare: Is program-op (on ECL) what used to be build-op, or is it something else? I think I used build-op to make dylibs. 21:09:02 Well, .sos. 21:09:25 Fare, is this it? http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/ 21:09:42 Fare, and what is its relation to sbcl? is it a different implementation of CL? 21:09:50 asdf-ecl used to have plenty of secondary operations. I made it a portable extension to ASDF last year, called ASDF-Bundle, but some parts like program-op were still ECL only. 21:10:10 Starting with ASDF3, it's available on all implementations that allow this kind of things. 21:10:41 lc0dd0cl [~thisismyu@21.12.11.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:10:49 clisp clozure cmu lispworks sbcl scl ecl 21:11:16 I'm sure you could extend the list with a bit of hacking. 21:12:09 asdf is a software construction library for CL. It was originally written by a SBCL hacker for SBCL — Dan Barlow, who since retired from CL hacking. 21:13:01 -!- wedgeV [~wedge@static-96-239-100-26.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: wedgeV] 21:13:03 Dan experimented with a lot of ideas, some of them were really good, some of them OK, some of them really bad, but in the end, the good survived, and the bad are mostly abandoned (though some remain for backward compatibility) 21:13:05 ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has joined #lisp 21:13:52 in any case, these days, ASDF is a robust portable piece of software to build CL software 21:13:53 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 21:14:38 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:17:14 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:17:21 fredmorcos: what's wrong with using a library for portability? Beats not being portable. 21:18:33 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:21:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:11 asdf is not an implementation of cl fredmorcos 21:22:19 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 21:23:47 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p579232C9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:24:08 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 21:24:26 Fare: why XCVB has fallen behind asdf developement? 21:25:00 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 Fare, a library for putting argv into a list just for portability? I expect that to be part of my program already, the compiler/VM/interpreter/runtime should take care of that. I mean, why is this implementation dependent in the first place? 21:30:28 fredmorcos: it is implementation dependent because the cl standard is very old. 21:30:45 fredmorcos: it is from a time where in many operating systems, you would not have such a thing as "command line arguments" 21:31:25 thanks H4ns, are there any plans to update it somewhat? 21:31:44 fredmorcos: no. the common lisp standard will not be updated in the foreseeable future 21:31:55 OK, thanks! 21:32:03 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:32:08 If someone had some (lots) loose change to fund another committee, maybe. 21:32:41 Shinmera: money alone will not make this fly. 21:32:48 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:33:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:34 That's why there's a "maybe". 21:33:47 _zxq9_ [~ceverett@206-169-73-202.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:51 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@92.110.20.203] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 21:33:52 francogrex, xcvb has fallen behind, indeed. Unless you want parallelism above all. 21:34:20 fredmorcos, you can have it without the library, or you can have it portably with the library 21:34:20 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 21:34:27 that whole model of thinking "need money to fund another ansi committee!" is a rather outdated way of thinking about how to go about creating languages. 21:34:31 said library is available via (require "asdf") which is itself portable. 21:35:26 abcl ccl clisp cmucl ecl sbcl and allegro provide asdf3, which includes uiop. 21:35:34 what about genera? 21:35:35 :D 21:35:57 H4ns: if there is ever a new distribution of genera, I'm pretty sure it with include asdf, too. 21:35:59 foom: It isn't about creating a new language, it's about updating the standard for an existing one. 21:36:14 Fare: ha, the old one is not modern enough for you, i see. 21:36:18 -!- mvilleneuve_ [~mvilleneu@2a01:e35:8a4b:33b0:69da:3440:b564:cf02] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:36:38 -!- zxq9 [~ceverett@206-169-73-202.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:36:42 Yeah, well, the path to an updated CL certainly does not lie through a new ANSI standard. If it ever happens, it'll be through community pushing for common functionality. 21:37:07 I'm pretty sure the next lispworks, gcl, scl, mkcl releases will have asdf3, too. 21:37:41 foom: I heavily doubt that, because if there's one thing that'll never reach an agreement, it's a community. 21:37:48 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:54 JuanDaugherty [~Ren@cpe-198-255-198-157.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 so you can safely rely on restore-image, *command-line-arguments*, etc. 21:37:59 Shinmera: no, but you have a sufficiently motivated person take charge and convince everyone else 21:38:03 c.f. asdf. 21:38:27 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 21:38:38 -!- seangrove [~user@2600:1010:b014:4afd:a026:aaf9:3176:cc95] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:39:08 someone with lots of money can do so much better than change the CL standard. 21:39:29 lisp os talk, I take it 21:39:55 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0AF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:40:03 for instance. 21:40:16 oh lots of booze and whores, depending on tastes. 21:40:18 I don't think updating the standards is what is mostly needed right now. 21:40:20 -!- Kaisyu [~Kaisyu@183.109.111.173] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:40:29 s/oh/or/ 21:40:52 *JuanDaugherty* guesses that most people here don't relish convincing others of stuff 21:41:18 most people here have learned their lessons about the futility of such attempts 21:41:26 it should be the least of programmers concerns. actually lisp stantards are just fine, many language used for developement do not even have any good standards 21:42:29 I was mightily surprised 10 days ago when we have a meeting about building CL software at Google, just how lacking in basic agreement a set of intelligent people, with common goals and a common culture, could be. 21:42:43 -!- Ayey_ [~rune1@2-106-141-211-dynamic.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 21:42:58 really why, are you very young? 21:43:04 of course, I'm part of the general disagreement — yet I didn't fathom how deep it went before I saw it. 21:43:15 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 21:43:27 disagreements about what? 21:43:59 the top 1 or 2% of general intelligence, in engineering, whatever still exist in a culture which is (mentally) indistinct from the general one 21:44:02 In the end, the words of Aubrey Jaffer apply: "A word for the epoch of free software and universal publishing: voluntocracy n 1. governance by those who do the work. 2. the volunteers who do the work." 21:44:09 particularly in commercial enterprises 21:44:22 francogrex, really stupid details of both where to go and how to get there. 21:44:58 heck, I can't even decide if late binding or early binding is better. 21:45:02 seangrove [~user@251.sub-70-197-12.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:14 I have very good idea of where to go, but how to get there is the problem 21:45:21 if I can't figure it out and I'm the same person, I don't really expect anyone to agree with anyone else :p 21:45:26 -!- xotedend [~quassel@23-25-110-173-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:45:27 dlowe: midday binding is better. Ask my secretary. 21:45:38 slyrus [~chatzilla@173-228-44-92.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:52 Fare: you have a secretary? I should change officies 21:46:15 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:46:41 dlowe: your self from yesterday or tomorrow is so misguided. Your self from right now is perfectly right. 21:47:00 That's why it's called the right now. Because that's when you're right. 21:47:42 more good programmers adopting lisp, more widespread use, more software and libraries developement... that's the final goal 21:47:52 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:38 so much good talent wasted, I just look at github projects (any lang) and feel sorry 21:49:20 Lisp as a family isn't doing bad in github project count, last time I looked at some stats. 21:50:23 for something like javascript "not doing bad" is ok, but for lisp "not doing bad" is just not good enough 21:51:11 francogrex, ok, so what's your plan? 21:51:21 I don't know, I don't really care much for the popularity for anything as long as I'm content working with it. 21:51:40 I am not asking for lisp programmers to do more, I am asking for java and c++, c# etc programmers to drop their stuff and develop in lisp 21:51:57 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:52:09 it's not about popularity, it's about support 21:52:33 And by support you mean? 21:52:34 Fare: better education 21:53:11 better support speaks for itself. better infrastructure to build upon. 21:53:13 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:53:49 I'd start by a campaign in universities and schools 21:54:24 java got into schools by being the "language with job potential" 21:54:32 you need some marketing in, there 21:54:33 lobbying at corporations etc... I told you I don't know the how 21:54:53 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:18 dlowe: yes I realize that, so maybe starting at schools is not the good place to start 21:55:23 -!- fredmorcos [~fredmorco@cm56-209-5.liwest.at] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:55:26 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:55:41 anyway, some ranting 21:55:42 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-82-95.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 the best campaign is software that works. 21:56:48 Fare: yes, and software that people need, to make their life in one way or another better and easier 21:58:24 so... what are you working on? 21:58:44 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-147-235.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:59:10 Python did great at being usable, for instance. 21:59:16 -!- zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0AF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:59:17 I am not going to make a difference, I'm not even a serious programmer, I'm an MD programming as a hobby 21:59:17 just remember, ruby was a smaller thing before Rails really brought in the mainstream crowd, and oh man things got way better after that didn't they 21:59:20 :P 21:59:21 *samskulls* only works on things that make the user's life worse 21:59:38 As a language, it has its successes and failures — but one thing it did was get usability rather right. 22:00:15 I only work on things I never dare to release or even bring anything close to finishing. 22:00:27 Shinmera: why? 22:00:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@109.134.146.216] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:00:42 i only work on things i need/want for immediate use and i have no end of things to work on 22:00:43 I make my users' life sometimes worse, sometimes better. I'm glad some tell me when it's worse. 22:00:50 francogrex: well the never close to finishing part is because I get too many ideas to work on and get interested in 22:01:02 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 22:01:03 francogrex: and the not releasing part is because I don't want to put out crap 22:01:15 Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:01:34 I rationalize the existence of my github mainly as an online backup. 22:01:46 Anyway, I worked hard so Lisp is usable as a portable "scripting" language to replace a shell. These days, I use CL instead of zsh for scripting. 22:01:54 -!- scampbell [~scampbell@mail.scampbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:58 Shinmera: perhaps what you think is crap could be useful for other developers to use as glue, or build upon etc I don't know 22:02:12 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:02:32 francogrex: I find that usually for things that are easy enough to scan through and finish you could probably build from scratch in less time than it takes to get worked into the existing system and change/fix what needs to be done. 22:02:55 -!- DoctorDude [~Jake@unaffiliated/doctordude] has left #lisp 22:02:55 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:12 Fare: right, honestly if lisp is one of the top langs in github (at least) its thanks to efforts of those like you and others here 22:03:36 I don't think I did much. Xach is the big hero, here. 22:03:57 Quicklisp is indeed quite the thing. 22:04:11 I mean, do you use UIOP or inferior-shell? If not, I wasn't that useful to you. 22:04:13 I don't think the idea to have lisp developers do more; like I said I think other good developers out there should see the advantages and join in 22:04:42 did you see when esr came by and CL just wasn't ready? 22:04:47 We need "killer apps", in other words... 22:04:55 esr? 22:05:07 francogrex: Anyway, I'm trying my best to keep my project count down and finish up what I can, so hopefully I can release something that will be useful to others at some point. 22:05:10 haha. esr's visit here was quite the joke 22:05:14 he came by in earnest. If he had found something satisfactory and adopted it, that would have been a big thing. 22:05:38 but what we had to offer just wasn't easy to access enough. 22:05:44 sorry guys who is esr? 22:05:54 Eric S. Raymond 22:05:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond 22:06:11 baumax [~cgiirc@fantasy.ircgate.it] has joined #lisp 22:06:15 -!- eigenlicht [~eigenlich@unaffiliated/eigenlicht] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2] 22:06:26 just having to chase after libraries and their documentation. 22:07:01 he was here on #lisp ? 22:07:13 or was it a f2f meeting? 22:07:14 maybe the next thing is a site that runs helambdap on all of quicklisp and publishes it 22:07:17 #lisp 22:07:31 he was considering rewriting reposurgeon using sbcl 22:07:45 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 22:07:46 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat101.it.wsu.edu] has left #lisp 22:07:59 what date did he come? what was the nick? I want to check the logs :) 22:08:11 Fare: well, there is quickdocs. 22:08:13 a few months back, nick esr 22:08:47 yes worthwhile checking the logs 22:08:51 Quickdocs.org is under maintainance. Sorry. 22:09:03 -!- EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:09:15 Oh, it still is, right. 22:09:43 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D42C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:53 -!- gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 22:10:05 EvW [~Thunderbi@a82-92-190-215.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:10:19 Quickdocs.org is up and running 22:10:45 francogrex: it is up, but searching or clicking anything reveals a maintenance error. 22:10:47 ok some parts 22:10:53 yes 22:11:00 straycat [~straycat@cpc5-with6-2-0-cust871.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:52 cl programmers have the hardest time of being organized in redundant ways. 22:12:10 can someone check the local logs and tell me the that? google searching `"esr" site:ccl.clozure.com' turned out to be fruitless 22:12:20 tell me the date* 22:13:13 minion: memo for beach: largely pie in the sky at this point, but do you know a documentation system (TeX-based or not) we could use or adapt for online, hyperlinked docs? A PDF is fine for writing chunks of the spec, but for actual user documentation, a Document Examiner kind of affair is necessary at some point 22:13:13 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 22:14:25 mathrick, what do you think of Racket's Scribble? 22:14:28 Quickdocs.org is under maintainance. Sorry. <-- aw, it looked so promising 22:14:46 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 22:14:46 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:14:47 mathrick: I think cldoc is a simple yet very good doc system 22:15:14 francogrex: including for use in an Emacs online help and for end-user documentation? 22:15:14 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 22:15:17 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-82-95.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:15:26 why are there SO MANY damn CL documentation systems, but none that provides universal up and running service? 22:15:34 good question 22:15:42 CL flavour of NIH I assume 22:15:48 like with unit tests 22:15:50 no I didn't read all requirement, just caught the message for beach above 22:15:50 hey, I wrote my own documentation system of sorts (exscribe) so I'm part of the problem. 22:15:58 for docstring style docs I like printing at the repl 22:16:30 fighting NIH amongst CL programmers is... wow 22:16:46 it's html based 22:16:57 well, only for certain systems -- how about cffi, hunchentoot, cl-ppcre? 22:16:57 it's not always NIH so much as "just doesn't do what i need" 22:17:00 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:17:08 I wrote my own doc system as well *cough*. 22:17:25 if slime were actually easy to extend i'd say "hey we should have a context-aware documentation thing" but heh 22:17:54 but that's still only a fraction of the problem solved 22:18:09 oGMo: yeah, but CL is special because it's so much easier to whip up something that just works for what you need, and also CL programmers are about as easy to herd as cats 22:18:27 in Java there's a lot more incentive to cooperate because it's just so damn hard to get anything that works 22:18:38 "It currently has an HTML driver that generates XHTML 1.0 Strict" 22:18:38 Not really hard, it just takes so long. 22:19:00 oGMo: stassats mentioned rewriting SLIME, I wonder if that's a problem he wants to fix too 22:19:23 Shinmera: same thing. There are only so many hours a day 22:19:38 mathrick: dunno. it would be nice. i have a few things i'd like to be able to add slime stuff for. 22:19:49 mathrick: Fair enough, I guess. 22:20:14 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:20:42 Fare: does exscribe do anything comparable to TeX? I've always wanted a system that could do TeX-like things without being based on a completely brain-damaged language 22:20:43 i wrote a doc system (cl-gendoc) because i didn't see anything that was easy to throw together lisp-extracted values with separate other-formatted documents and just spit out html 22:21:38 Mine was written to test out my HTML manipulation library and to see how difficult it would be (it was surprisingly easy). 22:22:46 much of the time i just have to go off source and public symbols anyway .. would make a slime solution nicer 22:22:53 -!- Pullphinger [~Pullphing@12.40.23.68] has quit [] 22:23:12 there was also meta .. er .. manifest? but it didn't seem to get a lot of development 22:27:01 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:28:03 gendl [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:45 letfn [~other@188.162.65.104] has joined #lisp 22:28:49 hi 22:29:13 -!- malbertife [~malbertif@95.236.12.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:29:24 hello 22:29:32 how was that let-like thing called? it's like let bbut except values it bind functions 22:29:46 flet? 22:29:48 and lables 22:29:52 *labels? 22:29:56 yeah, flet. 22:30:40 i was "letf" or "letfn" 22:30:54 thanks 22:32:00 -!- letfn [~other@188.162.65.104] has quit [Client Quit] 22:33:29 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.188.20] has joined #lisp 22:33:53 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 22:36:04 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:36:31 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #lisp 22:38:40 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 22:39:23 mathrick, consider exscribe end-of-lifed. It had a cl-typesetting backend at one point, but never grew even support for footnotes 22:39:43 of course, if you want to resurrect it, go ahead. But it's far from there. 22:39:55 it's great for producing html, though, which is what I use it for. 22:40:01 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:40:10 You might be interested in TeXmacs. 22:40:42 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 22:40:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40:54 Or Tex Mex 22:40:58 :) 22:42:13 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 __zxq9__ [~ceverett@206-169-73-202.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:13 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [] 22:46:07 -!- _zxq9_ [~ceverett@206-169-73-202.static.twtelecom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:47:19 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:48:56 Klaufir_ [~admin@109.232.224.97] has joined #lisp 22:49:07 -!- Klaufir_ [~admin@109.232.224.97] has left #lisp 22:49:31 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@164.138.80.236] has quit [Quit: mc40] 22:50:38 Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:53:04 -!- rk[NEBRASKA] is now known as rk[WYOMING] 22:56:12 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:57:08 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@75-120.5-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 22:57:43 Fare: TeXmacs is a silly thing. I don't want something even more based on TeX-the-language, and I certainly don't want to abandon a real emacs for something that's just incompatible enough for all my muscle memory and customisations to be utterly useless 22:57:52 -!- sellout- [~Adium@66.185.108.211] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:58:25 Fare: also why did you EOL it? 22:59:25 because I'm the only user 22:59:45 and for new documents I'm adopting Racket's Scribble, which is similar in design, except with a user base. 23:00:02 I'm maintaining exscribe for the sake of my existing documents, but not adding features. 23:00:14 it's simple and robust. 23:00:24 as far as the html backend is concerned, at leat. 23:00:55 kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has joined #lisp 23:02:26 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZZzZZ] 23:07:14 is this not a horror show? http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Huffman_coding#Common_Lisp not just the lisp code but all the rest... 23:08:58 the perl and even the picolisp beat all in simplicity and elegance 23:10:17 -!- kaygun_ [~kaygun@78.180.237.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:16:39 francogrex: uh no 23:16:41 no they do not 23:17:03 thinking so just means "i can't read lisp very well yet" 23:17:21 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:19:30 oGMo: you don't think the perl code is more elegantly repesented? 23:19:31 -!- bitonic` [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:19:56 i think it's a well-indented mess 23:20:21 perl syntax is operator vomit and that's a prime, if well-indented and whitespaced, example 23:21:38 and the picolisp example is pretty poor code, even if it's smaller 23:22:06 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:22:22 it does its job 23:24:54 -!- seangrove [~user@251.sub-70-197-12.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 23:25:40 -!- foeniks [~fevon@p5091FF80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:27:30 -!- ozialien [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:28:35 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:28:39 banannagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:52 francogrex: the picolisp example could be ported nearly as-is to CL, but would be worse code than the CL example, IMO 23:32:36 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:34:34 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:37 -!- arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:53 ozialien [~ernest@ip98-167-234-126.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:12 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 -!- dstatyvka [ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:37:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:38:02 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-179-123-167.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:42 Fare: what was asdf-dependency-grovel created for? As in, what problem does it solve that comes up often enough to warrant the significant effort spent on making it? 23:39:56 who knows 23:40:30 it finds the dependency graph of large projects with hundreds of files, given a valid build order. 23:40:50 or, with a bit of hacking, even without such a valid build order. 23:41:01 you can guess what large projects it was used against 23:42:30 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:42:57 Fare: QPX, but what I don't understand is, how often do you need to do such a thing? 23:43:20 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [] 23:43:33 oGMo: what's more interesting is how much more concise the D code is. It's one of the shortest implementations there 23:43:54 Haskell has one very long, one short, and one exceedingly short implementation 23:46:14 -!- Joreji [~thomas@172-212.eduroam.rwth-aachen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:50:56 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has joined #lisp 23:53:50 http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Huffman_coding#Ursala <-- oh wow 23:55:31 -!- fmeyer [~fmeyer@179.208.155.231] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:55:32 -!- thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:17 thelorax123 [~nodebot@165.225.138.217] has joined #lisp 23:56:58 -!- straycat [~straycat@cpc5-with6-2-0-cust871.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:57:01 zickzackv [~faot@p5DDB0AF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:57:44 straycat [~straycat@cpc5-with6-2-0-cust871.1-4.cable.virginm.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:11 seangrove [~user@2600:1010:b014:4afd:d4d6:fc1:659:6cb2] has joined #lisp 23:58:30 I wonder if it compiles to machine code larger than the source. 23:59:41 arrsim [~user@128.250.116.182] has joined #lisp