00:00:00 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:04:14 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:04:29 -!- intanjir [6cb70cfc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.183.12.252] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:09:56 z0d: not in a library. There's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname for applications to let them add short nicknames. 00:11:36 pjb: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139749 00:11:53 my attempt at the problem (of printing things without special cases like #') 00:15:50 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:16:09 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:52 -!- antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:20:35 harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has joined #lisp 00:24:07 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@host52.190-224-61.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:24:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:24:47 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:00 -!- xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:25:27 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZ] 00:25:47 wakeup`: mapcar only works on proper lists. What about dotted lists and circular lists? 00:28:24 good point 00:28:59 you're not even using the pretty printer there, are you? 00:29:07 Bike: nope 00:29:22 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 00:29:44 so just bind *print-pretty* to nil and be done with it 00:29:53 JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.99] has joined #lisp 00:31:22 Bike: noope I use the pretty printer indirectly 00:32:46 ah 00:35:46 -!- JuanitoJons [~jreynoso@201.164.190.99] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 00:36:51 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 00:37:21 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 00:38:30 -!- mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:38:40 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat99.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:39:23 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39:49 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 00:40:38 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:47 askatasuna [~askatasun@host75.190-231-123.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:42:48 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:43:23 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:57 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:44:12 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:44:18 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 00:44:18 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 00:44:18 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:47:33 pixpop [~user@76.208.138.234] has joined #lisp 00:49:03 -!- ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:49:32 quit 00:49:34 Bike: by the way binding *print-pretty* to NIL doesn't inhibit '(function foo) etc being printed as #'foo 00:49:44 -!- pixpop [~user@76.208.138.234] has quit [Client Quit] 00:50:05 joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:10 axs_ [~quassel@197.200.72.24] has joined #lisp 00:51:11 it does here. 00:51:14 -!- joneshf-laptop_ [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:32 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:51:52 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:56 oh, not on ccl. 00:52:12 yep... 00:52:28 what a mess 00:53:43 why don't you play around with (set-pprint-dispatch '(cons (eql function)) (pprint-dispatch '(foo bar baz))) 00:57:41 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58:21 robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:25 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:02:15 -!- robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:03:45 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-fgcnchrwsppjvhww] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 01:04:44 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:54 k0001 [~k0001@host187.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:06:43 antoszka [~antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:07:44 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host52.190-229-165.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:15:50 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 01:15:55 -!- ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16:20 ianmcorvidae [~ianmcorvi@musicbrainz/user/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 01:19:19 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:22:04 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 01:22:25 -!- mc40 [~mcheema@146.255.107.116] has quit [Quit: mc40] 01:24:34 nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dunvhmlshnqkdmaw] has joined #lisp 01:25:23 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-214-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:26:40 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:27:08 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:29:07 any of y'all ever use a system76 machine? 01:30:08 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:34:05 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 01:35:22 dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:44 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:37:01 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:37:29 I used a system35 clone once. 01:41:19 ,sa 01:41:24 oops 01:42:26 So I typed `,sa' in SLIME... 01:49:54 :) 01:50:11 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:56:42 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 02:01:03 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:03:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:04:04 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:52 -!- echo-area [~user@111.196.4.210] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:05:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:07:06 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.117.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:07:29 echo-area [~user@111.196.4.210] has joined #lisp 02:08:45 how do you not get addicted top this language 02:09:04 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:52 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:12:12 ASau` [~user@p54AFE89A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:12:55 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:48 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:14:23 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 02:15:40 -!- ASau [~user@p5083D5C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:17:24 -!- xk05 [~xk05@c-98-244-43-125.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:18:34 -!- CrazyEddy [~deipnosop@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:19:42 jaimef: you stop at the parentheses. 02:19:54 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.117.95] has joined #lisp 02:20:49 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has joined #lisp 02:21:14 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:22:17 -!- sellout- [~Adium@75-166-112-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:23:20 -!- robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:26:15 robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9E2DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:37:55 -!- dkordic [~danilo@178-221-113-73.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:38:54 -!- dessos [~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:39:38 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 02:40:47 banannagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:47 -!- bananagram [~bot@76.30.158.226] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:42:32 -!- banannagram is now known as bananagram 02:43:36 sellout- [~Adium@75-166-112-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:40 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:47 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:59 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:22 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has joined #lisp 02:52:35 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:53:37 Kaisyu [~Thunderbi@180.66.68.223] has joined #lisp 02:53:52 peccu [~peccu@KD106179020073.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:54:13 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 02:57:29 -!- Kaisyu [~Thunderbi@180.66.68.223] has quit [Client Quit] 02:57:42 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 02:58:47 prxq_ [~mommer@x2f6825d.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lisp 03:01:56 -!- prxq [~mommer@x2f6ae10.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:06:03 CrazyEddy [~incompara@113.52.233.162] has joined #lisp 03:06:03 -!- CrazyEddy [~incompara@113.52.233.162] has quit [Changing host] 03:06:03 CrazyEddy [~incompara@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:06:38 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:08:02 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-146-162.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 03:08:14 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 03:09:39 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9E2DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:09:41 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:11:50 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:08 -!- CrazyEddy [~incompara@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:13:27 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:14 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:19:17 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 03:25:12 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:29 yCrazyEdd [~psychogon@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 03:26:42 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-146-162.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:28:34 -!- wakeup` [~user@xdsl-78-35-50-2.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:28:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:30:36 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:32:26 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 03:34:00 xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:02 -!- xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:36:10 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-13.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 03:36:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:36:47 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:54 -!- gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: gendl] 03:41:35 areckx [~areckx@c-50-161-42-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:57 "A LISP programmer knows the value of everything, but the cost of nothing." 03:42:02 what does that even mean? 03:43:12 there's an explanation buried somewhere, but the origin of the quote was afaik a play on returning values and how expensive LISP was compared to fortran or assembler, I think 03:43:14 it's a joke. "everything is a value" was/is a lisp slogan; the second clause is referring to lisp programmers not bieng able to understand the costs of their programs (i.e. time, space) 03:43:46 it was also referenced as example of power, as in "it let you play with concepts without certain worries" 03:43:56 it's a play on an oscar wilde quote. 03:43:57 areckx: It would apply even better to a Haskell programmer  since lazy evaluation makes it really hard to figure out what costs you pay when. 03:44:30 xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:57 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46:44 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 03:46:51 xk05_ [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:53 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-79-243.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:47:01 -!- xk05_ [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:47:07 Good morning everyone! 03:48:23 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 03:48:23 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:29 Bike: oh I see 03:50:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:34 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50:40 -!- xk05 [~xk05@30.176-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:50:46 I thought LISP was powerful though 03:51:04 but apparently too complicated for most programmers to make effective use of? 03:51:15 am I evaluating the language correctly? hehe 03:51:19 areckx: that's mostly programming urban legends, IMO 03:51:29 lol areckx 03:51:39 I was looking over the source for emacs and it looks very clean 03:51:55 but then again maybe I should look at 0.01 03:51:56 wait, was that not an intended eval joke 03:52:13 lol no I'm not that smart 03:52:26 areckx: Emacs is ... quite specific - it implements its own Lisp (Elisp, discussed on #emacs), and is iirc kinda older than Common Lisp that we tend to stick to here 03:52:44 *areckx* just got completely confused just now 03:52:46 areckx: it definitely didn't help Lisp popularity that getting implementations wasn't easy for long time 03:53:20 I'm thinking there's a lot more to lisp than I thought 03:53:22 especially for the bigger, more feature-packed variants (Scheme, while more accessible, suffered from extreme unportability, IMO) 03:54:04 so, I'm a beginning programmer, focusing on c and c++ at the moment, still going through hello world type programs, when and why should I start learning lisp? 03:54:18 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:31 (I've been dabbling for years, did some Java, Python, HTML/CSS , javascript, php, etc, so not totally new) 03:54:46 areckx: it will help you break out into more varied languages, IMO 03:54:49 but still not to the point of making USEFUL programs without a tutorial 03:55:13 I'm also without a job 03:55:17 if you can get around a bit, Practical Common Lisp is quite good 03:55:26 minion: tell areckx about pcl 03:55:26 areckx: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:55:32 what is a "useful program" 03:55:34 I'm guessing I should take courses from MIT? 03:55:45 areckx: welp. I'd probably concentrate a bit on that job first :| 03:55:52 the useful programs i've written are trivial 03:56:35 p_l: well yeah, I am having trouble breaking out into the world... I want to use my computer technical knowledge as a means of earning a living, but don't really know what to do 03:57:19 minion: I'll remember that 03:57:20 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 03:57:43 heh 03:57:55 so far I've just been studying like crazy, trying to understand how code works 03:58:18 areckx: well, I found Lisp and Haskell to have been my gateways into more... complete world of programming 03:58:32 -!- axs_ [~quassel@197.200.72.24] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:58:40 as in, not stuck in surprisingly narrow set of languages 03:58:56 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:00:47 p_l: I get mixed advice from people 04:01:05 I've gotten tired of trying to find an end-all answer and just take the advice and add it to the pile 04:02:35 for example, I know three people who are in the industry: one just tells me to keep learning, no matter what the language, but stick with it; the other tells me to just get the job done and make the client happy, as long as it's on time; the other tells me to just learn Java 04:03:04 because "that's what the real world needs at entry level" 04:03:17 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:24 they all make a good living, so I listen to all of them 04:03:25 areckx: I agree with the first guy. 04:03:43 sellout-: your name indicates you would agree with the 2nd :-) 04:03:47 areckx: there are no end-all answers 04:03:55 -!- benny [~user@i577A85D0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:04:08 of course, just it's hard to know which path to take when you're not even with a job 04:04:11 areckx: There are plenty of opportunities in the industry, but whats the point if youre not enjoying it? 04:04:14 I'd say that all three have a bit of truth to it, but 1 & 2 are actually compatible 04:04:33 sellout-: well I enjoy learning new things, achieving a task and nailing it 04:04:52 completely surrounding myself around the subject matter, trying to tackle it from every angle 04:05:05 areckx: the first is essentially "get the skills to the point that you can do something with it", second could be made into "In the end, you have to ship it" :) 04:05:06 are employers impressed with potential employees putting lisp on their resumes? 04:05:12 more so than with other languages? 04:05:17 (just wondering 04:05:17 ) 04:05:17 w|t: depends on employer 04:05:20 I mean, what we need is portable, lightweight applications which don't leak memory 04:05:40 w|t: My employer would be ;) 04:05:50 the first guy told me "if you tell the interviewer you use VIm, you'll get the job" 04:05:57 I had to write CL on whiteboards while applying for companies that had near total ban on lisp code :> 04:05:57 Kaisyu [~Thunderbi@180.66.68.223] has joined #lisp 04:05:57 because i think you might stand out from the java/C++/C# crowd 04:05:57 "only nerds use VIm" 04:06:35 -!- optikalmouse [~omouse@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:06:43 areckx: Emacs vs. ViM flamewars are the stuff of epic sagas told from generation to generaton 04:06:54 learning things for the sake of impressing interviewers makes programming seem deeply unhealthy. 04:06:58 it's a bit of cultural background by now 04:07:03 Bike: definitely 04:07:05 I just use what seems natural to me 04:07:10 and I prefer vim 04:07:17 hehe 04:07:17 but that's just me 04:07:29 I don't like using ctrl and alt while typing 04:07:46 areckx: I have a lecturer who seems to think I should spectacularly combust, because I use both 04:07:48 but strangely, I really like using i3 window manager 04:08:13 p_l: sometimes you need a different work environment, it stimulates thinking and changes workflow 04:08:26 everything is a tool, treat it as such 04:08:30 -!- harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:08:30 areckx: true. But sometimes it's the damn 9s ping on SSH. 04:09:08 areckx: with regards to languages - if you can ship it, many clients won't care about languages 04:09:11 p_l: right, I've never actually had to ssh into a machine, but I keep hearing people on IRC talk about it, it must be common 04:09:12 Especially small business 04:09:38 p_l: the second guy got that right it seems; the client just wants it done and presentable 04:09:51 that's kinda the point 04:09:55 they don't care how elegant it is 04:10:10 some will. But there's a lot that won't 04:10:16 most of the time they don't even look at the code 04:10:23 from what I hear, anyway 04:10:29 so if you can write it in a way that will make it easy to support it for you, it helps 04:10:41 imagine possibilities for example in various "intranets" 04:11:11 but that requires getting to the clients :| 04:11:18 o_O 04:11:28 gzg` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:11:46 you started using buzzwords and I lost all cogniscence of what we were talking about 04:11:51 areckx: for example, application to track something in their business. 04:11:59 meh, "intranet" is not much of a buzzword 04:12:17 intranet - internal network 04:12:19 it sounds cool and catchy, like "synergy" or "fiber-optic networks" 04:12:27 well, so does 'internet', and yet here we are. 04:12:34 heh 04:12:43 blew my mind when i found out 'internet' was actually derived from something. 04:12:43 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-zcznwzyyrpffiner] has joined #lisp 04:12:57 whoah wait, what Bike 04:13:08 inter-connected network? 04:13:08 'internetwork', shocking i know. 04:13:14 wow 04:13:19 Because it's interconnection of networks. 04:13:24 yep 04:13:29 Interconnection of... intranets, even. 04:13:31 never saw the connection! 04:13:44 areckx: it's kinda there in the full name of "IP" protocol :) 04:13:46 it was underground -- 04:13:58 -_- 04:16:18 so... my entire life I have been mentally preparing myself for a job in the CS industry, I grew up on IRC, troubleshooted windows 3.1/95/98/XP/Vista/7/8 , various Macs and OSX, Ubuntu 10.04, 12.04, 13.04, Xubuntu 12.04, Debian Squeeze, Gentoo, and Arch, have become completely numbed to internet trolling... 04:16:38 do you think I can make it? 04:17:04 yes. Though for starters, your experience might help you grab some time in the sysadmin/support area 04:17:15 ... which is still good place to work, or start into developement 04:17:17 it's a growth industry. standards aren't insurmountably high. 04:17:32 that's what I was thinking 04:17:45 maybe you could talk to a career counselor. 04:18:06 I'm planning on taking a 2 year specialized IT degree with emphasis on linux systems administration at empire college as soon as I have some stability in my life 04:18:42 for now I'm trying to just get a minimum wage job and get out of the homeless shelters, staying at my brother's atm but have to leave tomorrow 04:18:50 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 04:19:06 colleges have a lot of career stuff help. 04:19:10 I'm taking some classes at the junior college to get some transferrable credits 04:19:34 yeah I just need to not be homeless anynmore though, it's really annoying 04:19:44 it's been 3 really long years 04:19:50 I still don't have a job 04:19:52 "annoying" isn't what comes to mind but i can definitely believe that. 04:20:22 I got paid from the 2nd guy to do some html/css work and edits, but couldn't meet deadlines 04:20:57 and he doesn't make much from his freelance work, so he didn't want to pay me to learn, I understand why he would let me go 04:22:07 I'm really hoping I can get a job on campus 04:22:22 I just don't feel easy with all the guessing 04:22:33 I just want a for-sure job 04:22:44 afk 04:23:23 I mean, if you tell a computer what to do with conciseness, it'll do it, and if you get it right, it'll do it every single time 04:23:38 how come life can't work like that? I should just fill out something and then start working 04:24:11 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24:25 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] 04:24:43 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:14 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:27:35 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 04:28:07 -!- Kaisyu [~Thunderbi@180.66.68.223] has quit [Quit: Bye~] 04:29:09 UGH 04:30:27 Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-229-116-241.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:30:30 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@ti-229-116-241.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 04:32:28 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:32:28 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-zcznwzyyrpffiner] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:34:46 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 04:39:16 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:39:57 someone was asking about a pdf parsing library last week. 04:40:53 Coincidentally I had a program that was shelling out to python to convert a pdf to xml, then using cxml to parse that, which seemed a bit kludgy. So I ported the text-extraction part of the python library to lisp, if anyone is interested 04:41:49 It also has all the hooks for rendering paths, but I don't need that, so haven't tested it 04:42:05 haz1 [~haz@94.10.218.126] has joined #lisp 04:42:12 I also learned that while it's easy to write fortran in any language, it's not so easy to write python in lisp 04:43:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.252.76] has joined #lisp 04:43:47 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.252.76] has quit [Changing host] 04:43:47 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 04:47:39 -!- ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:50:09 ered [~ered@75-101-56-39.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:14 ggole [~ggole@106-68-20-181.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:51:32 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has joined #lisp 04:51:37 -!- davazp [~user@31.200.186.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:54:27 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 04:55:30 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:05 MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:36 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:00:40 -!- sellout- [~Adium@75-166-112-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:03:18 sellout- [~Adium@75-166-112-222.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:19 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:03:43 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:36 -!- Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:08:07 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:08:15 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-20-181.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 05:09:10 ggole [~ggole@106-68-20-181.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:10:00 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-193-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:01 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host187.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:19:05 alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 05:20:11 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:20:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:36 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 05:23:14 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317643.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:25:08 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:28:35 syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has joined #lisp 05:29:04 -!- syrinx [~quassel@unaffiliated/syrinx-/x-4255893] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:31:39 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 05:36:04 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:36:13 jasom: I'm interested 05:38:45 k0001 [~k0001@host187.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:40:36 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 05:43:23 -!- stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.117.95] has quit [Quit: my website: http://stardiviner.dyndns-blog.com/] 05:47:05 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host187.190-136-199.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:47:24 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:47:28 pjb` [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-5-46.w90-46.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:48:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:49:15 stardiviner [~stardivin@112.10.117.95] has joined #lisp 05:50:12 -!- gzg` [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:50:50 -!- pjb [~t@AMontsouris-651-1-18-238.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:51:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 05:56:35 areckx: it needs a bit more work still; I don't handle fonts yet, which means all the ligatures come out as garbage; thats another 700 lines of python to port 05:57:13 -!- robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:57:29 robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:08 jasom: such a huge task, how does one even approach it? what does it look like? 05:58:23 source can I haz? 06:00:05 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01:13 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.93.173] has joined #lisp 06:02:52 -!- haz1 [~haz@94.10.218.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:11:08 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: dcooper8] 06:17:06 -!- robot-be` [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:18:57 areckx: I'll post what I have to github later tonight 06:19:14 areckx: it looks really ugly, since it's essentially just a straight-up port of python code 06:19:35 probably the most wonderful part is where I unrolled generators into lambda's with tagbodys 06:21:11 it also only currently support flate compression (with optional png interpolation) things like CCIT would matter if you need to process scanned page images 06:21:54 I'm using it for a project that I want cross-platform so one goal I have is no FFI; I think I've achieved that sofar 06:21:56 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:23:23 seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:33 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30:39 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has joined #lisp 06:31:44 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 06:31:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:32:46 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:27 areckx: https://github.com/jasom/pdfparse 06:43:53 https://github.com/euske/pdfminer/ <-- that's what it's based on 06:45:45 araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has joined #lisp 06:45:45 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.45.171] has quit [Changing host] 06:45:45 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 06:54:58 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 06:57:58 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 07:03:33 -!- nydel [nydel@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dunvhmlshnqkdmaw] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:04:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:08:25 mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has joined #lisp 07:08:25 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@88.208.105.6] has quit [Changing host] 07:08:25 mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has joined #lisp 07:10:43 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 07:14:39 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:16:25 -!- areckx [~areckx@c-50-161-42-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 07:19:14 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 07:21:17 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.93.173] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 07:31:18 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:29 jasom: It would be interesting to have a library for PDF manipulation that is more up-to-date than CL-PDF. Like for instance defining a CL data structure with well-defined protocols that can be created form and parsed into PDF. Also, documentation would be essential. Perhaps you would be interested in starting such a project. 07:33:07 jasom: You wouldn't have to do it all by yourself; you can ask advice here for instance. I have read up a bit on PDF, so I could probably contribute at least some ideas. 07:34:56 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:43:26 angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 Hydan [~ERC@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 07:47:14 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:06 harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has joined #lisp 07:50:58 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-22-82.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 07:53:43 Bacteria [~Bacteria@132.181.31.25] has joined #lisp 07:56:52 vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has joined #lisp 07:59:55 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:02:34 er, s/parsed into PDF/converted into PDF/ 08:04:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:09:00 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:09:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 08:11:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 08:15:52 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:16:30 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:20:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:22:27 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@77.127.132.27] has joined #lisp 08:25:48 -!- zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:27:28 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:31:38 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 08:39:44 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@242-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:40:14 christophergonza [~user@c-71-198-140-178.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.252.76] has joined #lisp 08:43:54 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.47.252.76] has quit [Changing host] 08:43:54 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:47:15 -!- askatasuna [~askatasun@host75.190-231-123.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:51:36 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:54:25 -!- christophergonza [~user@c-71-198-140-178.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:11 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 08:56:29 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:56:45 robot-beethoven [~user@c-24-118-142-0.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:35 chenjf [~chenjf@183.19.118.192] has joined #lisp 09:00:26 Any one knows any job schedule library in lisp? 09:01:10 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:28 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:04:48 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:14:08 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@77.127.132.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:14:12 danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@94.159.136.220] has joined #lisp 09:14:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 malbertife [~malbertif@host149-60-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:07 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 09:20:24 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:26:39 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 09:27:49 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:28:07 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 09:29:27 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 09:29:57 -!- nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:34:52 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:36:08 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:39:14 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 09:43:05 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:45:04 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:45:47 -!- danielszmulewi-1 [~danielszm@94.159.136.220] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewi-1] 09:48:41 malbertife__ [~malbertif@host149-60-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:49:46 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:52:30 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 09:52:36 -!- malbertife [~malbertif@host149-60-dynamic.6-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:02:48 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.93.173] has joined #lisp 10:16:24 -!- nipra [~nipra@122.177.216.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:27:47 nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.225.138.211] has joined #lisp 10:31:09 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:32 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 10:31:59 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 10:33:35 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@221.225.138.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:37:23 add^_ [~user@m5-241-189-182.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 10:39:17 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:42 ipmonger_ [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:06 -!- ipmonger_ is now known as ipmonger 10:44:21 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:49:25 -!- harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:51:04 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:26 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 10:52:54 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:57:12 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:59:49 -!- Hydan [~ERC@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:04:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:04:52 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 11:04:56 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:07:12 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:45 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-46-198.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:32 fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317643.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:13:10 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-255-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:13:49 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:21:14 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:22:35 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 11:24:02 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 11:26:26 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 11:31:43 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 11:35:02 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:36:38 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:41:43 -!- Bacteria [~Bacteria@132.181.31.25] has quit [Quit: Bacteria] 11:45:14 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:47:01 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 11:47:28 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:48:33 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:48:43 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has joined #lisp 11:52:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:52:50 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 11:53:14 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 11:55:15 MoALTz [~no@host86-142-120-66.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 11:59:03 -!- vi1 [~vi1@93.92.216.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:01:12 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:23 chenjf: http://syscog.eu has some job schedule tools for sale ;-) 12:04:43 pjb: Thanks for your info. However,the site seems down 12:05:54 mathrick_: Network flaky still? 12:06:00 pjb: Thanks for all the comments. 12:06:13 pjb: A bit overwhelming, but I'll get to it eventually. 12:06:55 beach: awfully, yes 12:07:19 beach: did interesting talk happen when I wasn't looking? 12:07:38 mathrick_: I created a project robert-strandh/Second-Climacs.git on GitHub. 12:08:08 mathrick_: There is some documentation and maybe 70% of the buffer protocol. 12:08:14 ah 12:08:36 mathrick_: Just telling you. You don't need to do anything about it. 12:09:00 mhm 12:11:38 beach: oh, I see you also made LispOS/ 12:11:50 Yes, the other day. 12:11:56 Mainly for pjb. 12:12:01 chenjf: sorry, it's siscog.eu 12:12:04 We are talking about it at the moment. 12:12:38 beach: aye, was the talk here so that I can look it up in the stored logs? 12:13:05 mathrick_: Not really, no. We do it by email. 12:13:17 beach: since it comes once a week, it makes a batch :-) 12:13:17 ah 12:13:21 mathrick_: I don't really want a general discussion about it at this point. 12:13:31 pjb: Yes, I understand. 12:13:56 mathrick_: ... which is why I didn't announce it here. 12:14:10 beach: would you mind terribly including me in CC:? Since I also have my own thoughts about many things that could/should be, so I'd like to know at least which way your thoughts are going 12:14:36 mathrick_: I'll consider it. :) 12:15:07 But I am pretty sure what will happen if this becomes a public discussion :( 12:15:46 beach: well, that'd be 3 people, which is far from being public yet 12:16:12 mathrick_: True. 12:17:11 beach: I'm especially concerned because of the ideas about kernel pjb has expressed before which are radically incompatible with my own 12:17:14 speaking of which 12:17:32 pjb: have you followed the recent changes to linux kernel? 12:17:35 Not closely. 12:17:49 Perhaps you should read the document on github. 12:17:54 with k-dbus, and cgroup arbitrators and splitting out parts of it to a closely-coupled userspace daemon? 12:18:07 Definitely. 12:18:26 that makes it way, way more opinionated than it was before, and really not conductive to doing something that isn't a linux 12:18:33 mathrick_: I am afraid what I wrote is going to be radically incompatible with your own ideas as well. 12:18:34 I'd be more influenced by EROS, or Mach. 12:18:37 pjb: will do, which part should I be looking at? 12:18:53 It's only 24 pages so far. 12:19:18 pjb: Mach is a known failure in microkernels, L4 is what happened when people got together to fix known fundamental issues in Mach :) 12:19:41 mathrick_: and it's on my reading list. 12:19:42 beach: might be, which makes it especially interesting to me 12:20:08 but really, for me it's more an implementation detail than an important part of a lispos project. 12:20:33 for me it's an important detail because it determines what you can do down the road 12:20:52 hmm, I don't have TeX on this machine, bummer 12:21:07 and installing it with my barely-functional internet is gonna be fun 12:22:18 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:34 add^_` [~user@m5-241-189-182.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 12:28:56 -!- add^_ [~user@m5-241-189-182.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29:16 mathrick_: I need to go do something else for a while, but I'll be back later in case you have any questions. 12:30:00 beach: kk, installing TeX while my net feels like cooperating, so no questions yet 12:30:19 OK, good luck! Talk later maybe. 12:30:51 yup 12:32:01 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 12:35:00 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:43:07 -!- add^_` is now known as add^_ 12:43:24 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:49:22 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 12:50:14 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:31 -!- prxq_ is now known as prxq 12:52:12 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 12:57:17 -!- Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-63-137.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:57:40 -!- ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ipmonger] 12:57:52 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: brb] 13:00:18 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:02:39 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-201-114.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 13:02:49 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has left #lisp 13:04:43 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:06:46 -!- arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09:40 HG` [~HG@79.142.73.48] has joined #lisp 13:11:05 TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-224-223.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:39 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 13:15:29 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:16:02 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 13:16:51 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:17:32 -!- fridim_ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317643.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:18:22 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:18:57 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:15 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 13:23:40 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:25:30 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:28:47 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:31:22 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 13:31:40 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 13:32:45 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 13:36:06 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:38:21 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 13:38:28 mathrick_: Did you manage to install TeX? 13:40:11 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 13:40:40 k0001 [~k0001@host41.190-137-203.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 is Climacs in active development? 13:42:05 haven't installed it in years 13:42:31 z0d: no, but we want to revive the development 13:42:53 beach: aye, trying to install the rest, such as the VCS tools 13:43:00 z0d: I just started working on it a few days ago. 13:46:50 hah, so I tried to use it without latex-extra 13:47:00 no dice, you used moreverb 13:47:07 Maybe messing directly with `initialize-instance' primary methods was not such a good idea. 13:47:19 mathrick_: Maybe I am not actually using it. 13:47:26 didi: it's a terribly bad idea 13:47:34 mathrick_: Yeah... 13:47:36 :^S 13:47:42 didi: it's not a terrible idea, it's just prohibited 13:47:54 stassats: OH, good... 13:47:55 eh 13:47:56 rather 13:48:15 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9E2DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:23 one of those unfortunate "prohibited, but the language will gladly help you do it" sore spots 13:48:27 like modifying literals 13:48:34 why oh why weren't they made read-only 13:48:46 Oh well, back to the drawing board. I think I can cook something with `:around' methods. 13:49:12 mathrick_: you can't enforce it 13:50:05 didi: you can define initialize-instance in whichiever fashion you like, it's just that you can do that for objects of type CLASS, i.e., metaclasses 13:50:24 stassats: you could if you placed them on read-only pages, but I guess that's assuming a facility the spec could not do 13:50:46 mathrick_: that's not free 13:51:00 I know 13:51:12 stassats: Speaking of metaclasses, I've been trying to read about MOP lately. It's unfortunately a very dense subject for me at the moment. 13:52:09 beach: oh, nice 13:52:13 so, just to avoid any possible confusion, it's not prohibited to define primary methods for initialize-instance, except for metaclasses 13:52:43 didi: reading is useless, just try using it 13:53:18 z0d: Yeah, well, we'll see how much time I have for it. 13:54:37 z0d: While you are reading about the MOP, if you feel like contributing to this site: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html let me know. 13:56:04 er, that was meant for didi 13:56:14 didi: While you are reading about the MOP, if you feel like contributing to this site: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html let me know. 13:57:57 -!- yCrazyEdd [~psychogon@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:58:14 anyways, I have the book, but haven't read it 13:59:06 The organization of the book is not great. 14:00:52 normanrichards [~textual@166.137.120.108] has joined #lisp 14:05:28 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 14:05:49 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:37 tiglog [~tiglog@111.161.8.8] has joined #lisp 14:12:20 stassats: Heh. Maybe. But I don't know enough to even start typing gibberish on the REPL. ;^) 14:12:40 beach: Uh, that's the chapters I'm trying to read. 14:12:59 beach: Hard things they are. 14:13:15 CrazyEddy [~whiptail@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 14:13:45 didi: Yes, and they badly need cross references in the form of hyperlinks. 14:13:45 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host41.190-137-203.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:45 didi: Their references don't even have page numbers. :( 14:13:54 didi: And in one case they have two sections with the same name. 14:14:25 didi: Then they refer to "the CLOS specification" which is the one from CLtL2. 14:16:01 k0001 [~k0001@host253.186-109-111.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:18:36 *didi* head spins 14:20:53 didi: That's when I decided I needed an HTML version of it. 14:21:12 http://www.alu.org/mop/index.html is the only thing i read about MOP 14:21:35 and i'm well versed in MOP 14:22:57 -!- d4gg4d_ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cfhzcfvpjusdyorx] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:27:10 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:28:03 sohail [~sohail@69-165-161-49.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:28:03 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-165-161-49.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:28:18 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:33:41 -!- |JRG| [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-151-82.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:35:09 stassats: Right, that's the only HTML version I know of. 14:35:25 But the HTML markup is copyright and they do not allow modifications. 14:36:18 Furthermore, (I assume) it was generated automatically from the TeX source, so it has the same problems as the book does, as I pointed out. 14:37:45 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-65-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:43:20 looks like it would be a good idea for SBCL to issue a warning for (initialize-instance ((c subclass-of-class)) ..) 14:43:38 stassats: Do it. :^) 14:44:06 SBCL's compiler has been of great help to me. 14:44:10 yes, i'm thinking what would happen with forward-referenced classes 14:45:29 d4gg4d_ [uid7020@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qklealujhfnzosrf] has joined #lisp 14:45:59 let's suppose that it doesn't happen often 14:46:30 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host253.186-109-111.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:47:43 beach: It's unfortunate how many CL documentation sources are untouchable. 14:48:10 less editing errors 14:48:10 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:50:59 didi: It wouldn't be so bad if there were someone one could report errors and suggested improvements to. 14:51:43 that would require a publication of a new standard 14:52:41 stassats: Are you sure? The HyperSpec clearly says that it does not pretend to be the standard. 14:52:46 unless you just mean typos and formatting errors 14:53:21 contrary to what HyperSpec says, it's actually used to implement implementations and to write conforming programs 14:53:32 True. 14:54:59 There is the case of errors and typos, but without changing the language, the document could be improved. 14:56:45 leo2007 [~leo@221.218.61.158] has joined #lisp 14:57:52 are destructive functions considered bad practice? 14:57:56 No 15:00:16 so is it mainly just a clojure/scheme thing, beach? 15:00:29 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9E2DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00:41 w|t: Those who think that went and created their own languages long ago. 15:02:21 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:59 w|t: If you look at some well-written code, you will see that the functional (i.e., side-effect free) style is used in some places say macro expanders. 15:04:38 oh, okay. thanks for the clarification beach. 15:05:45 w|t: anytime. 15:06:14 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:06:33 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:01 when i write programs in any lisp, i try to write 'good' functional code, because the books tell me it is good practice and has advantages. but when i'm actually doing the task, sometimes it is pretty difficult, especially during more complex code with a lot of variable changes and conditionals, etc. 15:09:48 w|t: Functional style is good in situations where it does not unnecessarily complicate the code, and when it would not have any significant impact on performance. 15:10:29 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 15:10:49 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:11:45 ahh. thanks again. 15:13:13 w|t: Macro expanders are considered one of those cases, because any negative influence on performance only effects compile time. 15:15:19 can you give me an example of some code where functional style would complicate the code? 15:15:45 i want to see if it's just my own inability to write good functional code. 15:16:02 ck`` [~ck@p508ABC0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:14 Hmm, it is hard to come up with good examples on the spot like that. 15:18:09 OK, here is one (I hope). This morning I wrote a function to randomly shuffle a list. 15:18:42 I convert it to an array, do the standard shuffle algorithm on the array, and then convert it back to a list. 15:19:29 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:36 I can't think of a way that is both simple and fast when done in the functional style, though it may still exist of course. 15:21:38 *beach* vanishes for a while. 15:22:38 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 15:22:52 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 15:23:45 -!- HG` [~HG@79.142.73.48] has quit [Quit: HG`] 15:27:52 -!- normanrichards [~textual@166.137.120.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:27:55 i see 15:28:36 yeah, seems a lot easier to do it in an imperative style 15:34:33 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.161] has joined #lisp 15:35:12 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.161] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:13 fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.161] has joined #lisp 15:36:43 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #lisp 15:37:57 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-9-9.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:13 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:55 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:40:08 |JRG| [c209f2f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.9.242.245] has joined #lisp 15:40:36 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-13.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:42:51 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:38 hey 15:44:11 is anyone familiar with cl-json? 15:44:29 somewhat. 15:44:42 I have CLOS object and I need to hide few slots before serialization 15:45:04 for example 15:45:11 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:45:11 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-133-50.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:45:20 (def class* class () ((s1 0) (s2 0))) 15:45:33 and let's say I want to 'hide' s2 slot 15:45:53 as in, not serialize it? 15:45:56 so after serialization i get {s1 : 0} not {s1:0, s2 : 0} 15:46:02 "def class*" is not CLOS 15:46:21 stassats: well yeah, I'm using hu.dwim.defclass-start 15:46:23 *start 15:46:37 but I though it's just overlay on CLOS 15:47:19 Bike: well, I passing object through many layers, and it's done automaticly (I also have many classes in my project) 15:47:28 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:44 so explicite saying which one to serialiazie on serialization level might be quite... 15:47:47 hm 15:47:55 you can define a method for encode-json on your class 15:48:02 ugly? ;) 15:48:08 Bike: hm, makes sense 15:48:44 define your own metaclass, add a slot option (slot :do-not-serialize t) 15:48:56 probably just have the method call encode-json-alist with an alist you make that has only the slots you want. 15:49:51 ok thank you guys 15:49:58 I going to try those tips 15:54:36 k0001 [~k0001@host253.186-109-111.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 15:59:02 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:59:37 k0001_ [~k0001@host171.190-137-67.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:00:44 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host253.186-109-111.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:04:32 -!- ck`` [~ck@p508ABC0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:04:39 k0001 [~k0001@200.117.216.38] has joined #lisp 16:05:26 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:06:11 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:06:29 sohail [~sohail@69-165-161-49.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:06:29 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-165-161-49.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:06:29 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:06:43 -!- EmmyTheBee is now known as em 16:06:47 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host171.190-137-67.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:07:52 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:09:27 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 16:09:48 <|JRG|> hi lispers, clean way to build dynamic bindings at runtime? 16:09:55 <|JRG|> if any 16:10:13 explain? 16:10:13 clhs progv 16:10:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 16:10:57 notice that prog is a let+tagbody+block nil, so for lexical binding mostly. 16:11:25 fantasti` [~user@116.231.119.52] has joined #lisp 16:12:13 -!- fantasticsid [~user@216.240.135.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:12:38 <|JRG|> pjb: thanks 16:12:59 <|JRG|> did not fully understand your note though 16:13:05 ck`` [~ck@p508ABC0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:28 he's saying prog and progv are very different things with similar names. 16:13:52 <|JRG|> ok, I thought he mispelled progv 16:14:22 well, see, there you go 16:17:13 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:17:30 So be careful not to mispell it ;-) 16:20:36 normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has joined #lisp 16:20:44 -!- keen_____ [~blackened@p3b93105f.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:51 keen_ [~blackened@p3b93105f.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:24:04 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:06 <|JRG|> pjb: I will, btw I have to ashamedly admit I've COMPILEd let forms in the past... 16:24:08 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Quit: WeeChat, The Better IRC Client: http://weechat.org/] 16:25:49 Is (defclass foo () ()) == (defclass foo (standard-object) ())? 16:27:35 yeah 16:28:08 -!- leo2007 [~leo@221.218.61.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:28:16 Bike: Oh, good. 16:28:26 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-79-243.w90-5.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:29:41 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:19 ok, so one more question 16:30:25 -!- ck`` [~ck@p508ABC0A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:30:29 I want't to add custom keywords to my slots 16:30:33 for example 16:30:52 (defclass p () ((s1 0 :extra-info "asdf"))) 16:30:55 any hints? 16:31:23 s/\'t// 16:31:27 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 16:32:13 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 16:32:18 MOP 16:32:51 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-65-92.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:33:12 I'm using hu.dwim.defclass-star 16:34:11 bastardization layers do not affect MOP 16:35:19 stassats: can you provide some more info? 16:35:23 alabaster: you can add parameters to your slots with the MOP, defining a meta-class. 16:35:34 hm 16:41:40 -!- fantasti` [~user@116.231.119.52] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:41:53 alabaster: Since the MOP is not standardized by an official body, there are some variations in implementations (more than in CL). Therefore you should use closer-mop as a portability layer. 16:42:15 HG` [~HG@31.205.59.111] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 alabaster: http://mop.lisp.se/ 16:42:25 Is (defclass foo () ()) == (defclass foo (standard-object) () (:metaclass standard-class))? 16:42:35 I guess I need to read AMOP now... 16:43:22 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 16:43:28 alabaster: An introduction: http://soft.vub.ac.be/~pcostanz/documents/csse10/03-clos-mop.pdf 16:43:41 didi: yes. 16:43:51 pjb: Thanks. 16:44:41 clhs defclass 16:44:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm 16:45:10 didi: it answers your question directly 16:45:23 stassats: Thanks. 16:50:55 gabnet [~user@ACaen-652-1-224-116.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:55:14 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 16:56:37 -!- tiglog [~tiglog@111.161.8.8] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:05:36 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:06:02 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:13 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:12:14 -!- gabnet [~user@ACaen-652-1-224-116.w92-154.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:37 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 17:13:09 any idea where bugs found in flexi-streams should go? Just striaght to Edi? 17:16:50 -!- normanrichards [~textual@70.114.215.220] has quit [] 17:18:24 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-160.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:18:55 harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has joined #lisp 17:19:06 no 17:19:29 https://github.com/edicl/flexi-streams/issues 17:25:45 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:36 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-46-198.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:29:22 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:29:22 kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-106-77.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:37 -!- HG` [~HG@31.205.59.111] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:31:33 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.93.173] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 17:32:40 k0001_ [~k0001@host239.190-137-64.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:34:23 npatrick04 [~user@adsl-98-81-162-154.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:18 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:00 -!- k0001 [~k0001@200.117.216.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:37:43 k0001 [~k0001@host190.186-125-110.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:38:06 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host239.190-137-64.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:39:23 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:39:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 17:39:48 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9E2DC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 -!- npatrick04 [~user@adsl-98-81-162-154.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:40:41 -!- H4ns changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: flexi-streams 1.0.8, SBCL 1.1.13, FiveAM 1.2 17:42:58 k0001_ [~k0001@host44.200-117-32.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:45:12 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host190.186-125-110.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:45:34 npatrick04 [~user@adsl-98-81-162-154.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:26 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@5.22.135.239] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:49:12 done! :) 17:49:36 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 17:50:56 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host44.200-117-32.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:52:08 first flexi-streams release in what, five years? 17:53:35 k0001 [~k0001@host16.190-229-167.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:54:08 -!- shifty`` [~user@114-198-35-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:54:23 shifty`` [~user@114-198-35-25.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:57:43 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-237-1-103.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:58:02 Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:40 CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:48 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:00:24 -!- CatMtKing [~CatMtKing@108-224-122-111.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:28 puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:12:09 BrianRice` [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:25 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:14:25 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 18:17:32 BrianRice` [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:09 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 -!- BrianRice [~water@c-24-18-219-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:19:21 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 18:22:50 seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has joined #lisp 18:23:52 -!- seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:52 *stassats* got to work on tab-completion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUw3ECmiLJg 18:35:08 -!- npatrick04 [~user@adsl-98-81-162-154.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:37:59 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 18:44:31 k0001_ [~k0001@host123.186-125-109.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:45:03 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 18:45:41 saving files should probably become the next feature 18:47:38 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host16.190-229-167.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:02 <|3b|> does yason have any way to define application or context specific encoders? 18:48:54 hi, a naming issue I don't understand please 18:49:11 *|3b|* wants to specify and encoding for a type from a 3rd-party library, but would prefer to keep open the option of encoding it differently in other applications loaded in the same image 18:49:14 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:23 <|3b|> s/and/an/ 18:49:27 it does not see extra method defined in closer-mop like here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139670 18:49:28 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host123.186-125-109.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:49:43 i.e. if I put (break "inside") into body of this method, it is never invoked 18:49:45 but 18:50:02 if I define the method as (cl:defmethod clos:slot-boundp-using-class .....), it is fine 18:50:12 mind clos: package prefix 18:50:37 <|3b|> foo doesn't look like a subclass of standard-class? 18:50:39 k0001 [~k0001@host41.190-229-210.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 <|JRG|> stassats: is that written in cl? what qt bindings are you using? 18:51:01 -!- kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:51:11 <|3b|> also, conformant programs shouldn't define methods on standard GFs specialized only on standard classes 18:51:35 |3b| foo class (i.e. the metaobject) is of the class standard-class, innit 18:52:00 <|3b|> you pass the class foo to s-b-u-c though, not the metaclass of foo 18:52:11 and I don't understand what you are saying about conformant programs 18:52:52 typep (find-class 'foo) 'standard-class) ---> true 18:52:57 <|3b|> clhs 11.1.2.1.2 18:52:58 Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 18:53:06 <|3b|> number 19 18:53:39 |JRG|: it is written in CL indeed, it's commonqt 18:54:55 <|3b|> hmm, now i'm confused about whether that method would apply or not if it weren't undefined according to that clhs page 18:55:25 |3b| - does it mean I cannot define a method specialised solely on types/classes provided by CL specs? sounds strange 18:55:32 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:55:33 |3b| - I am talking about 19 18:55:53 <|3b|> a method on a GF defined by the spec 18:56:07 since the implementation could have its own, is the idea. 18:56:09 <|3b|> consider what happens when 2 libraries try to do that 18:56:26 ah. so if there is a GF already, I can only add methods specialised on MY own types, right? 18:56:27 <|3b|> right, or the implementation 18:56:42 <|3b|> at least 1 should be your type 18:57:01 ok. I took this code from here: https://github.com/mcna/closer-mop/blob/master/closer-lispworks.lisp 18:57:49 <|3b|> well, closer-mop probably does some implementation-specific or undefined things 18:58:13 it does not work in the form from this file, but it works fine if I call the method clos:slot-boundp-using-class 18:58:14 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 *|3b|* expects that if closer-mop could be written completely portably, it wouldn't need to exist :) 18:58:27 <|JRG|> stassats: hmm, looking at the project page it looks not lispy enough for my taste... I'm used to cells powered toolkits 18:58:39 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #lisp 18:58:54 |3b| the goal is to have these method work with slot objects, rather than slot names only 18:59:06 <|JRG|> but then cells-gtk has not been updated in ages 18:59:21 <|3b|> is it specified to work on them? 18:59:22 puchacz: are you using the right package? 18:59:35 stassats: where? in REPL where I test it? 19:00:09 wherever you trying to use it 19:00:15 <|3b|> yeah, you define it as s-b-u-c, but call it as clos:c-b-u-c 19:00:24 <|3b|> clos:s-b-u-c 19:00:31 *|3b|* can't type today :( 19:00:46 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 19:00:58 |3b| LW provides this method for slot name symbol only, closer-mop wants it to work with slot object. I cannot say what it is _specified_ to look like, as there is no official MOP spec 19:01:14 <|3b|> so you are saying closer-mop is broken? 19:01:36 stassats: right, I test it in CL-USER, which probably has nothing to do with CLOS: 19:01:55 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:11 k0001_ [~k0001@host214.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:02:31 |3b| for what I can see the code does not work, and you think it is wrong to call a method s-b-u-c, and invoke next method as clos:s-b-u-c. so let's say closer-mop has a bug. 19:03:29 <|3b|> i'm saying adding clos: prefix to some uses but not all is suspicious 19:03:30 i'm failing to understand you 19:03:53 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host41.190-229-210.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:03:54 are you using closer-mop or not? 19:04:04 <|3b|> but it seems this method was copied from closer-mop, so i'm wondering if it is broken there too 19:04:07 if you're, it should be c2mop:slot-boundp-using-class, not cl-user: 19:04:07 stassats: I am trying to figure out why closer-mop does not work 19:04:11 in my case 19:04:19 what is your case? 19:05:03 closer-mop is used by ucw library, and it does not work in LW. so I started to isolate a case, and I found out that specialised methods provided by closer-mop are not invoked (in UCW) 19:05:17 <|3b|> are you using c2cl package instead of cl package when you use closer-mop? 19:05:58 <|3b|> it looks like it has to be more invasive on lw, so you need to make sure you use the c2cl symbols to get the things it redefines 19:06:54 <|3b|> so c2cl:standard-class not cl:standard-class, etc 19:07:09 what is cl2cl? 19:07:18 c2cl 19:07:34 <|3b|> the replacement for CL package you use to get closer-mop 19:07:34 and it's a package, evidently 19:07:35 c2cl, what package is it? 19:07:55 short for closer-to-cl 19:08:06 I discovered problems initially in this code: https://github.com/erikg/ucw-core/blob/master/src/rerl/standard-component/standard-component.lisp 19:08:08 err, closer-common-lisp, even 19:08:47 davazp [~user@92.251.134.142.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 19:09:11 e.g. line 78 uses c2mop 19:10:27 <|3b|> might try replacing the :common-lisp with :c2cl in the :use for that package and see if it works any better 19:11:02 [1]JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:11:05 knob9876 [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 -!- yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 19:13:27 k0001 [~k0001@host172.201-253-81.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 -!- JPeterson [~JPeterson@81-233-152-121-no83.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:14:17 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 stassats: your comments about packages 19:14:59 nipra [~nipra@122.177.246.219] has joined #lisp 19:15:06 now I tried with closer-mop available, in CL-USER REPL: 19:15:10 (c2mop:slot-boundp-using-class (find-class 'foo) (make-instance 'foo) (first (harlequin-common-lisp:class-slots (find-class 'foo)))) 19:15:13 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 247 seconds] 19:15:14 got the same error 19:15:36 Error: The slot # is missing from # (of class #) 19:15:39 <|3b|> try after (c2cl:defclass foo ...) 19:16:12 <|3b|> or switch to c2cl-user and try the defclass and s-b-u-c calls with no prefixes 19:16:48 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host214.181-1-202.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:17:12 |3b| it did not work - I defined class using c2cl, and called c2mop:s-b-u-c 19:17:43 *|3b|* expects :USEing :c2cl in the ucw package(s) would help then 19:17:54 <|3b|> or switching to a different lisp implementation :) 19:18:29 k0001_ [~k0001@host223.181-1-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:18:41 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host172.201-253-81.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:18:52 <|3b|> though looks like c2cl shadows a few things even on sbcl, which i thought was pretty close to MOP already 19:20:19 |3b| why would :use c2cl help in ucw, while it did not work in simple case in REPL? 19:21:14 *|3b|* would guess you didn't do the repl stuff correctly in some way, not sure exactly without seeing the exact steps though 19:21:37 <|3b|> possibly didn't end up with the right symbols imported, or didn't redefine the class with the new defclass 19:22:24 |3b| see my REPL http://paste.lisp.org/display/139761 19:22:38 my .lispworks added closer-mop already 19:23:53 <|3b|> is (clos:class-slots EQ harlequin-common-lisp:class-slots ? 19:25:00 <|3b|> might also try a different name, in case c2cl:defclass the old definition of the class interferes somehow 19:25:55 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@242-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:09 (eq 'clos:class-slots 'harlequin-common-lisp:class-slots) --> T 19:26:46 different name on what? 19:26:49 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@242-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 19:27:02 <|3b|> for the class, instead of FOO 19:27:51 tried, same error, but it was unlikely, as I restarted image 19:28:16 *|3b|* doesn't know why that doesn't work if it works in c2cl-user without prefixes 19:28:46 k0001 [~k0001@host59.186-125-105.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:28:52 who says it works in cl2cl-user without prefixes? I did not try 19:29:00 sorry, c2cl 19:29:07 <|3b|> ah, i thought you said it did 19:29:14 no 19:29:40 it only worked when I used clos:s-b-u-c in method name instead of bare s-b-u-c 19:29:48 <|3b|> sorry, guess i can't read in addition to not being able to type today :/ 19:30:53 it is suspicious, in original https://github.com/mcna/closer-mop/blob/master/closer-lispworks.lisp s-b-u-c is defined inside c2mop package 19:31:10 then I call GF with c2mop prefix, and it does not work 19:31:44 <|3b|> c2mop:s-b-u-c looks EQ to clos:s-b-u-c if i'm reading right 19:31:45 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:31:49 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:31:50 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host223.181-1-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:36 <|3b|> hmm, now i'm getting confused about which things c2mop redefines or not 19:35:08 -!- arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:36:02 <|3b|> c2mop defines its own STANDARD-CLASS, and specializes a bunch of methods on it, but i don't see where it does anything to cause that class to be used 19:37:11 arnas [arnas@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:37:55 (defclass standard-class (cl:standard-class) ()) 19:38:10 is this to avoid violating pp 19 from list you pasted? 19:38:47 so now everything is defined in terms of non-standardised type? 19:39:15 <|3b|> well, like i said before, something like c2mop is more likely to have to do non-conformant things 19:39:40 <|3b|> note that it is an implementation specific file, so doesn't need to be portable 19:40:07 -!- |JRG| [c209f2f5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.194.9.242.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:40:58 I like sbcl and abcl closer*.lisp files 19:41:08 no glue code altogether 19:42:49 |3b|, standard-class is shadowed: 19:42:56 #+(or allegro clozure lispworks mcl) 19:43:00 (:shadow #:standard-class) 19:43:41 <|3b|> right, but that only affects things that use the symbol 19:43:51 <|3b|> so CL:DEFCLASS wouldn't be affected 19:43:59 c2mop:standard-class affected? 19:44:16 but not standard-class, which is used by default ? 19:44:17 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:31 <|3b|> right 19:44:45 well, :export has #:standard-class 19:45:00 *|3b|* isn't sure if i'm missing something, or if you are expected to use c2mop:standard-class as a metaclass or what 19:45:01 isn't it enough to replace standardard stantard-class ? 19:46:50 |3b| I don't think so - you should use unspecified standard-class and it should pick c2mop:standard-class because of the export you can find in closer-mop-packages.lisp 19:46:55 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: dcooper8] 19:47:04 <|3b|> export only exports a symbol 19:47:09 <|3b|> it doesn't change any existing code 19:47:21 <|3b|> so the existing DEFCLASS isn't changed 19:47:28 dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:30 #:defclass is exported too 19:47:39 <|3b|> right, but not shadowed or redefined 19:48:06 <|3b|> so should be (eq c2cl:defclass cl:defclass) 19:48:12 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host59.186-125-105.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:48:13 <|3b|> with ' 19:48:42 (eq 'c2cl:defclass 'cl:defclass) --> T;;; what does it tell us? 19:48:49 not redefined? 19:48:57 <|3b|> not shadowed 19:50:09 k0001 [~k0001@host80.186-109-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:51:00 ok, so this may be an omission - defclass is not redefined and not shadowed before exporting 19:51:30 now, why do you think I made s-b-u-c work when I added package clos: to method name? 19:51:31 <|3b|> dunno, it could be doing (or supposed to be doing) some magic internal to the MOP stuff 19:51:37 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:51:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:51:48 -!- dcooper8 [~dcooper8@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:51:49 <|3b|> you defined a method on the correct GF 19:52:13 <|3b|> originally you were implicitly defining a new GF named cl-user::s-b-u-c 19:52:21 <|3b|> instead of defining a method on c2mop:c-b-u-c 19:52:36 and in original c2mop code? 19:52:37 <|3b|> (which is also clos:s-b-u-c) 19:52:57 let me check if it works if I add package prefix there 19:52:58 <|3b|> original c2mop specializes the method on c2mop:standard-class, while you specialized on cl:standard-class 19:53:06 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 ah 19:53:14 <|3b|> so it makes sense that they behave differently 19:53:44 <|3b|> just not sure what c2mop is trying to do so can't tell if that is actually more 'correct' or not 19:53:46 yes. (eq 'c2mop:standard-class 'cl:standard-class) --> NIL 19:53:49 they are different 19:54:57 symbols do not tell the whole picture, are (eq (find-class 'c2mop:standard-class) (find-class 'cl:standard-class)) unequal too? 19:55:56 stassats, checked now - different classes 19:56:53 HG` [~HG@31.205.59.111] has joined #lisp 19:57:00 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-20-181.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:57:30 you guys figured it out 19:57:32 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139761#1 19:57:39 this version works, with stock closer-mop as you see 19:58:40 basically calls from external code, like UCW or my REPL are using cl:standard-class, whereas specialisations inside closer-mop use c2mop:standard-class. probably defclass is the same, but needs to be verified 19:58:53 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:59:55 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:02 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:00:15 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:49 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:15 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 20:04:19 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.207] has joined #lisp 20:05:14 -!- MrWoohoo [~MrWoohoo@pool-74-100-140-127.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 20:07:03 the question about closer-mop is then how to fix it? the goal would be to make all subsequent code to use c2mop:standard-class 20:07:36 including standard-class hidden in macros like defclass 20:07:37 gmcastil [~user@75-145-122-2-Colorado.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:40 or default arguments 20:07:50 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:08:52 *|3b|* would look for a c2mop mailing list and ask if the defclass (without metaclass) + s-b-u-c call should work 20:09:34 it is not only s-b-u-c, a lot of things are defined in terms of standard-class there 20:09:39 but yeah 20:09:42 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host80.186-109-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:10:43 in sbcl, s-b-u-c works in terms of slot object, so assuming sbcl is compliant.... 20:11:03 <|3b|> yeah, c2mop docs suggest it should work 20:11:06 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 20:11:26 -!- harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:11:34 k0001 [~k0001@host224.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:11:35 also, to avoid argument what the behaviour _should_ be, how would I make it work in LW like in SBCL? 20:11:59 *|3b|* would just use sbcl :p 20:12:02 i.e. make these closer-mop methods effective 20:12:14 |3b| I am attracted to LW's graphical stepper 20:12:33 -!- effy [~quassel@111.197.234.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:12:38 at the moment closer-mop methods are not effective because of different standard-class 20:12:46 <|3b|> well, entire point of c2mop is to implement the 'should' behavior :) 20:13:04 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:13:06 failed here, different standard class 20:13:08 <|3b|> so if sbcl is correct, then c2mop should be fixed 20:13:23 but how? 20:13:24 <|3b|> if it isn't, then there is probably some 'correct' way to use c2mop 20:13:48 <|3b|> no idea, which is why i suggested asking a c2mop mailing list, where people who do know would see it 20:13:54 ok 20:13:55 thx 20:14:50 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 20:15:12 cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has joined #lisp 20:15:41 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-50-60.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:16:06 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host224.186-125-114.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:16:50 k0001 [~k0001@host177.186-108-161.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:16:56 -!- cpc26 [~user@fsf/member/cpc26] has quit [Client Quit] 20:16:57 <|3b|> probably reasonable to summarize your interpretation of the problem in addition to asking if that s-b-u-c should work, just trying to make sure you don't jump straight to the end :) 20:17:16 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:18:08 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:18:15 sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has joined #lisp 20:18:51 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:19:15 effy [~quassel@111.197.234.113] has joined #lisp 20:20:00 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:40 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host177.186-108-161.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:21:50 k0001 [~k0001@host42.186-108-167.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:24:38 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:27:16 -!- mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:27:38 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:59 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:29:39 k0001_ [~k0001@host84.190-137-67.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:31:01 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 20:31:11 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 20:32:13 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host42.186-108-167.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:32:15 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:34:15 nicdev` [~user@kilimanjaro.rafpepa.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:51 joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:25 -!- nicdev [user@2600:3c03::f03c:91ff:fedf:4986] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:35:26 -!- nicdev` is now known as nicdev 20:36:40 -!- add^_ [~user@m5-241-189-182.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:37:42 mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 20:38:46 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host84.190-137-67.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:39:52 k0001 [~k0001@host134.201-253-80.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:42:03 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:42:52 b80905 [~user@ppp92-100-119-25.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 k0001_ [~k0001@host126.186-108-163.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:45:01 -!- Code_Man` [~Code_Man@242-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:45:26 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host134.201-253-80.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:46:43 -!- davazp [~user@92.251.134.142.threembb.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:47:34 minion: memo for beach: re: crash-proof, batteries are nice, but not enough. There are multiple ways in which that can fail and result in a "crash". IMHO, crash-proof should mean that if at any point in time the system is forcibly interrupted, upon restart a consistent state can be recovered representing some state at a point not much before the crash event 20:47:35 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 20:48:35 minion: memo for beach: put another way, regardless of when a crash occurs, it should never be possible for it to cause loss of data other than that being written at the time 20:48:36 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 20:48:58 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 20:50:06 k0001 [~k0001@host201.190-229-166.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:50:33 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 20:51:56 <|3b|> anyone know how to cast and rename a column in a :select in s-sql? 20:53:01 minion: memo for beach: having *some* degree of crash-proof semantics is even more important when you're operating on a big shared object store, so the natural boundary of "now we're writing to files" disappears and the code might not even be aware of modifications of the (persistent) data store occurring 20:53:01 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 20:53:22 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host126.186-108-163.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:53:44 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:57:16 is lisp hard to read? 20:58:13 depends on who reads it 20:58:20 and also who wrote it 20:58:21 <|3b|> no more than other languages (in other words it depends on whether you know it, and if it was well formatted/well written) 20:58:28 but no, it's not hard to write readable Lisp 20:58:53 and if you do it well, it can easily be more readable, thanks to macros 20:59:16 (you can also lower the readability spectacularly with macros, mind you. Tool like any other) 20:59:21 k0001_ [~k0001@host171.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:01:42 so the ability to read lisp code fast comes with practice? 21:02:07 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:02:18 as with any other language 21:02:21 b80905: Lisp is no different from other languages regarding readability 21:02:32 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host201.190-229-166.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:02:56 b80905: http://www.lispworks.com/products/myths_and_legends.html 21:02:58 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:01 harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has joined #lisp 21:03:11 z0d: i have just written my first lines of lisp and it seems incredibly hard to read 21:03:23 more abstractions, better abstractions. that helps reading 21:03:29 b80905: you need a good editor 21:03:36 massive functions are always hard to read 21:03:48 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host171.186-125-116.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:03:54 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:04:02 z0d: i use one 21:04:05 yeah. Any kind of readability is the matter of practice, including things which are unthinkable to you now. Early programmers for instance have been known to do their bills in octal occasionally, because programming back in those days included reading lots of octal number 21:04:05 s 21:04:09 with 1. syntax highlighting 2. paren matching 21:04:09 ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:18 b80905: what are you using? 21:04:23 k0001 [~k0001@181.95.252.223] has joined #lisp 21:04:25 b80905, if you never used a lisp-based language, just take a while, the same when you first wrote your other languages lines 21:04:46 *|3b|* would say good auto indentation is more important than paren matching 21:04:54 both are crucial 21:05:01 indents are for reading, matching is for editing 21:05:09 |3b|: also that, but manually matching parens is not easy 21:05:09 z0d: emacs 21:05:10 you can't write readable code if you can't edit it properly 21:05:20 *|3b|* supposes paredit might influence my weighting though :) 21:05:22 paredit is the way to go 21:05:39 *mathrick_* needs to switch to smart parens 21:05:49 <|3b|> if you need to match parens much, i'd say you need more newlines 21:05:52 it's a more general paredit-like facility for non-lisp modes 21:05:59 *guaqua* doesn't use paredit *blushes* 21:06:05 including 21:06:17 good (i.e. automatic) indent is essential in any system 21:06:18 <|3b|> cool, i always miss paredit when i use other languages 21:06:39 mathrick_: paredit is more than just "putting down parens" 21:06:48 z0d: uhh? 21:06:50 I know that 21:06:52 I use paredit 21:08:09 mathrick_: regarding smartparens. e.g. paredit-kill is very nice. I don't know, maybe smartparens have that as well 21:08:23 |3b|: https://github.com/Fuco1/smartparens (available via MELPA) 21:08:25 what is the equivalent of define in emacslisp? 21:08:36 another mode you *really* should be using if you don't already is multiple-cursors.el 21:08:41 axs [~quassel@197.200.67.97] has joined #lisp 21:08:42 together with expand-region 21:09:25 does paredit come preinstalled? 21:10:01 b80905: unfortunatelly no 21:10:35 Is there a portable library that has something similar to "sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name"? 21:11:15 <|3b|> usocket maybe? 21:11:22 z0d: thanks, i will try it tomorrow, now i must be making my way to bed 21:11:31 <|3b|> or iolib for some definitions of 'portable' 21:12:04 -!- b80905 [~user@ppp92-100-119-25.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:54 mathrick__ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 21:14:30 oh FFS 21:14:31 anyway 21:14:55 z0d: yes, it's like paredit, but expanded to the general idea of delimiter pairs 21:15:08 -!- mathrick_ [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:15:12 so you can convolute HTML for instance 21:15:26 or match \begin{env} with \end 21:16:01 |3b|: http://emacsrocks.com/e13.html <-- sales pitch for multiple-cursors 21:17:52 mathrick__: I couldn't think of a use for multiple-cursors when I saw it. 21:17:56 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:19:47 mathrick__: expand-region seems cool. does it work with Lisp? 21:20:38 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-182-103.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:20:44 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-197-79.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:21:10 mathrick__: btw, my point is that paredit does much more than balancing parens. e.g. comment-dwim, paredit-kill etc. 21:22:35 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22:58 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:23:19 |JRG| [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-151-82.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 21:23:43 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 21:25:06 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:18 k0001_ [~k0001@host203.186-125-145.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:28:26 -!- k0001 [~k0001@181.95.252.223] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:28:29 z0d: yeah, it should 21:29:02 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:29:10 z0d: again, I know that, and SP does too. Like I mentioned, convoluting for example (that's paredit-convolute-list in case you didn't catch it) 21:30:41 joshe [~joshe@2001:470:e862::1:1] has joined #lisp 21:32:12 segmondy [~segmond@99.110.99.103] has joined #lisp 21:32:58 -!- segmondx [~segmond@108.67.103.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:35:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 21:35:20 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:37:11 didi: it 21:37:18 's *extremely* useful in practice 21:37:21 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:37:22 I use it all the time 21:37:28 and I really mean all the time 21:37:59 basically every single time I reach for emacs, it involves multiple-cursors at least some of the time 21:38:24 mathrick__: Cool. 21:39:20 mathrick__: sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you're proposing smart parens as a replacement for paredit 21:39:58 -!- mathrick__ is now known as mathrick 21:41:34 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:41:56 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:45:25 -!- REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:45:47 z0d: I am, because it's a mode which takes the idea behind paredit, but implements it for a generalised notion of "parens" 21:45:48 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 21:46:01 SP is a replacement for paredit, and includes more or less all of its functionality 21:47:20 the default operating mode is more relaxed for SP than paredit, but it has a switch to make it equally strict (which is the right thing to do, IMHO) 21:47:33 -!- slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:50:13 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:19 expand-region is nice 21:51:13 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:08 Nar [~Nar___@67-204-244-234.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 21:54:06 hello. I wanted to ask how to check in lisp if an atom is a list. 21:54:08 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:54:30 atoms aren't lists. 21:54:43 <|3b|> except NIL 21:54:46 -!- platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:54:55 clhs null/f 21:54:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_null.htm 21:55:18 <|3b|> clhs listp 21:55:18 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 21:55:28 <|3b|> ^ how to check whether something is a list in general 21:56:09 Thank you a lot 21:56:12 lispnewbie [506325fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.99.37.252] has joined #lisp 21:56:21 hi 21:56:43 what is the difference between :foo and #:foo? 21:56:47 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 21:57:02 :foo is a symbol in the keyword package, #:foo isn't in a package 21:57:04 Nar: Pay attention for the examples in the HyperSpec. Specially in the one with `cons'. 21:58:23 -!- joe9 [~user@ip70-179-153-227.fv.ks.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:50 so #:foo is never interned? 21:59:26 <|3b|> the reader doesn't intern it 21:59:44 <|3b|> you can do whatever you want with the symbol after that though 22:01:01 and what is the difference between (in-package :foo) and (in-package #:foo) ? purely style? 22:01:21 <|3b|> :foo interns a symbol into the keyword package 22:02:12 <|3b|> some people consider that wasteful, or dislike cluttering up the keyword package (for example because it makes symbol completion in the editor noisier) 22:02:21 lispnewbie: an important takeaway of the symbols being read uninterned is that (eq #:foo #:foo) ==> NIL 22:03:28 thank you guys 22:03:58 slyrus [~chatzilla@107.200.11.207] has joined #lisp 22:04:08 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:04:11 <|3b|> in-package only uses the name when passed a symbol, so it doesn't matter which package (if any) the symbol is in 22:04:32 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:05:01 TIL #:foo 22:05:02 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:39 see you later 22:06:46 -!- lispnewbie [506325fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.99.37.252] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 22:07:22 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 22:07:33 doesthiswork [~Adium@98.145.118.186] has joined #lisp 22:09:17 sohail [~sohail@69-165-161-49.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:18 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-165-161-49.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:09:18 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:10:15 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:11 aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has joined #lisp 22:12:18 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:13:01 -!- knob9876 [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14:58 minion: memo for beach: security needs *much* more. You absolutely need to protect user's apps from other user's apps, and users from themselves, as well as handle users gaining non-default privileges. A formal security kernel is really a necessity in a flat-space system. W7 was the system I looked at, and it's a good fit, being conceived of for Lisp (Scheme, to be exact) 22:14:58 Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 22:15:34 ebrasca [~chatzilla@host-198.58.elzappero.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:31 -!- k0001_ [~k0001@host203.186-125-145.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:18:25 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 22:18:42 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #lisp 22:19:15 -!- Mandus_ is now known as Mandus 22:20:15 yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:29 -!- yrk [~user@c-50-133-134-220.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:20:30 yrk [~user@pdpc/supporter/student/yrk] has joined #lisp 22:21:09 -!- |JRG| [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-151-82.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21:50 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFE89A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23:43 Zagaba [~user@modemcable009.239-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:24:11 |JRG| [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-34-151-82.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:24:48 ASau [~user@p54AFE89A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 platypine [platypine@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:38 -!- platypine [platypine@c-76-24-98-69.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:25:38 platypine [platypine@unaffiliated/doritos] has joined #lisp 22:26:19 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:15 ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has joined #lisp 22:36:23 -!- ustunozgur [~ustunozgu@78.171.69.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:36:31 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:08 -!- sdemarre [~serge@91.180.102.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:44 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:44:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:59 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:04 -!- cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:45:21 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:24 _danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 22:53:21 -!- _danlentz [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 22:55:48 -!- Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:57:57 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:00:58 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02:39 davazp [~user@178.167.218.46.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 23:06:24 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:07:18 People, is there a way to store the list in a variable? 23:07:40 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 23:07:43 sure, just do it 23:07:55 (defparameter *a-variable* '(a list)) ? 23:08:16 (defvar foo (list 1 2 3 4)) seems better. 23:08:35 Oh sorry didn't see the quote there. 23:09:28 Thank you. I just started to learn lisp today... 23:12:14 Code_Man` [~Code_Man@242-124.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:49 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:16:44 -!- Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:16:44 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:17:30 fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 23:17:49 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:16 Nar: are you reading a book or a tutorial? If so, which one? 23:20:46 Cecil [~cecil@ip4dab2a90.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 23:20:56 I am just looking online for different sources. 23:21:08 Ok ok. 23:22:13 Nar: May I recommend "Practical Common Lisp"? I'm reading it now and I think it's fairly good. 23:22:40 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:03 Thank you. I actually wanted to ask for any stydy resources 23:23:34 Well, don't hesitate. 23:25:43 Nar: you might want to look here also: https://github.com/vhf/free-programming-books 23:26:24 gendl [~gendl@c-98-250-10-50.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:35 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:26:57 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:27:26 Thank you samskulls for the link, it's awesome. 23:28:30 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 23:29:49 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:45 -!- fisxoj [~fisxoj@192-0-131-151.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:32:08 bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:27 Thank you guys 23:32:53 -!- mrSpec [~Spec@unaffiliated/mrspec] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:17 frx [~frx@93-138-57-86.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:36:38 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39:12 -!- didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:41:13 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:41:21 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:26 -!- harish [~harish@194.6.182.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:43:12 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has joined #lisp 23:43:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:19 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:31 cory786 [~cory@adsl-75-22-101-128.dsl.bumttx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:45 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:50:58 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:51:22 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:35 didi [~user@unaffiliated/didi/x-1022147] has joined #lisp 23:55:11 danlentz0 [~danlentz@c-68-37-70-235.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:56:41 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 -!- dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:59:07 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-67-189-17-39.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp