00:00:02 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:00:05 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-108-179-185-31.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:03:39 -!- iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:12:05 -!- resttime [~rest@par0400.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:13:23 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:20:07 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.49] has joined #lisp 00:21:57 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:23:22 Corvidium [~cosman246@174-21-204-153.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:24 sohail [~sohail@69-196-176-62.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:24 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-176-62.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:23:24 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:27:18 -!- boogie [~boogie@wsip-98-172-168-236.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28:14 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-lxkqinqbzwohsuwm] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:31:01 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:33:04 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 00:37:01 -!- gzg [~user@75-132-28-10.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:37:57 jrghigli` [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-222-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 00:37:58 -!- jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-222-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:38:00 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-bpnvgiegbdwewhcl] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 00:39:40 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.49] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 00:40:35 -!- Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat105.it.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:44:47 uta [~user@CPE7cb21bcc146d-CM7cb21bcc146a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:44:50 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 00:45:58 -!- uta [~user@CPE7cb21bcc146d-CM7cb21bcc146a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:46:37 uta [~user@CPE7cb21bcc146d-CM7cb21bcc146a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:39 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:53:31 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:53:51 duggiefresh [~quassel@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:38 Gooder [~user@218.69.12.194] has joined #lisp 00:59:21 iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 01:02:45 -!- duggiefresh [~quassel@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:04:01 -!- iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:04:05 NihilistDandy [~ND@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:09 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-165-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:05:55 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-165-148.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:06:17 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:58 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:08:01 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 01:09:28 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13:03 I feel braindead. 01:13:09 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:13:22 I'm trying to write a lisp function which returns all elements from list Y that are not in list X. 01:13:37 clhs set-difference 01:13:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm 01:13:41 (diff '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) returns '(4 5 6) 01:15:11 K1rk: is this a homework exercise or just something you need to do in your program? 01:15:14 -!- yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has quit [Ping timeout: 624 seconds] 01:15:30 if the second, what Bike said 01:15:43 nisstyre: yeah it's for a class. 01:15:47 So I can't use the easy way. lol 01:15:55 Half of the shit he asks us to do there's already functions to do... 01:15:58 if the first, look at how your implementation does set-difference. 01:16:21 I was trying to use "member" 01:17:02 K1rk: that will probably work but it will run in quadratic time 01:17:07 (roughly) 01:17:23 oh I think I already figured out what I'm not doing right. 01:17:25 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@174-21-204-153.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:17:31 member returns everything after it too... 01:17:41 That's why I'm ending up with huge chunks of lists I didn't ask for 01:18:03 I need to do something more like (car (member 1 '(2 4 1 4 5))) 01:18:04 I think 01:18:06 hold on let me try this 01:19:20 nope now my output is super reduced. 01:19:50 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-37-201-130-98.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 01:20:05 -!- k0001 [~k0001@host111.190-224-64.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:21:19 iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 01:23:49 nisstyre: I think I'm running into something like you're describing. I think this should work but it's causing a stack overflow. 01:24:07 paste.lisp.org, and no, the algorithm nisstyre is thinking of wouldn't generally run into that 01:24:45 Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/139516 01:24:50 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:24:51 that algorithm is, what, (loop for x in xs when (member x ys) collect x) 01:25:02 oh I was trying to do it with a cond... 01:25:10 that's pretty unreadable. 01:25:22 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:22 you should see my professor's code... 01:25:25 -!- iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:25:46 K1rk: that crashes because you use the same listA in the recursion every time. 01:26:26 Bike: okay that makes sense 01:26:29 I should be using the list I'm constructing... 01:26:51 you gotta make sure you'll always hit that termination condition. 01:27:23 -!- luke_ [~luke@178.120.136.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:27:25 Bike: you're right, in the other program I wrote I didn't pass the old list, I passed the cdr 01:27:41 /join lispgame 01:28:05 okay now I think it's backwards 01:28:12 it returned 7 which is the only thing in listA not in listB 01:30:19 Bike: okay I'm confused now again 01:30:33 and I think it's just that lisp makes me think about things differently because I don't usually write recursive functions 01:30:45 This function does exactly what it's supposed to but it's backwards. 01:31:05 I'm going to try going through and flipping all the A's and B's except in the function calls... 01:31:41 For some reason when I do that it breaks. 01:31:58 Why would that work? 01:32:13 well tbh I just want to flip the lists on the function call 01:32:25 It works as desired if I reverse the order which I input the lists. 01:32:31 Why can't I just reverse them in the function call then? 01:32:41 I think I'm just not reversing it in all the right places 01:32:51 Because if you do it in the internal calls you'll be flipping them every recursion. 01:32:53 Think! 01:33:09 This is what I have now. 01:33:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/139517 01:33:13 It works. 01:33:15 But it's backwards lol 01:33:30 But if I go change all the variable names... 01:33:33 it'll still be backwards 01:38:48 -!- samskulls [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:39:13 Bike: got it 01:39:49 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:40:26 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:31 LiamH [~none@pool-173-76-205-219.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:28 -!- axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:46:42 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Quitting] 01:46:56 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 01:46:58 kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:20 duggiefresh [~quassel@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:18 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.8.120] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 01:54:36 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:20 iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 01:59:43 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:59:48 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:36 oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.8.120] has joined #lisp 02:03:28 -!- iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:04:36 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:06:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:06:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:57 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:55 ASau` [~user@p5083DF33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:10:58 Does anyone recall where in the CLHS it describes the maximum number of arguments that can appear in the args+ list of (APPLY function &rest args+) - I'm not finding it or my eyes are glazing over it (sigh). 02:11:26 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:13:27 There is a minimum number of arguments a conforming implementation needs to handle - I (mis)remember it being something like 63? 02:13:27 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:13:40 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:50 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.8.120] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:14:30 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFE5E7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:14:55 drmeister: There is. 02:15:00 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has left #lisp 02:15:55 Do you recall where it was mentioned? I'm investigating switching from heap-based activation frames to stack-based calling to speed up my CL interpreter/compiler - I'm trying to figure out how many arguments I need to support. 02:16:03 drmeister: call-arguments-limit 02:16:13 *didi* doesn't know how to use the bot 02:16:20 Thank you. 02:16:32 50 02:16:42 ,clhs call-arguments-limit 02:16:55 specbot: clhs call-arguments-limit 02:17:00 Oh well... 02:17:18 -!- uta [~user@CPE7cb21bcc146d-CM7cb21bcc146a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:17:47 That's ok, I have the CLHS bookmarked. 02:17:57 iAran [~whimse@58.101.24.47] has joined #lisp 02:19:46 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:19:52 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:20:12 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:20:22 leo2007 [~leo@114.248.249.33] has joined #lisp 02:20:32 Does anyone know any strategies for mapping CL calls into C++ calls? ECL uses varargs - I want to avoid that using template programming. 02:21:21 jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has joined #lisp 02:23:46 lusory [~lusory@42.60.25.228] has joined #lisp 02:25:09 -!- Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:25:24 Bike [~Glossina@gannon-wless-gw.resnet.wsu.edu] has joined #lisp 02:44:15 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:25 -!- antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:51:01 Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 02:51:43 -!- Quadrescence [~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03:23 -!- benny [~user@i577A8299.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:09:17 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:09:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:13 -!- leo2007 [~leo@114.248.249.33] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 03:22:24 beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-66-80.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:22:39 Good morning everyone! 03:25:31 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:31 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:26:54 pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.222.58] has joined #lisp 03:26:55 -!- pranavrc [~pranavrc@122.164.222.58] has quit [Changing host] 03:26:55 pranavrc [~pranavrc@unaffiliated/pranavrc] has joined #lisp 03:28:18 -!- seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:29:56 hey beach 03:30:48 -!- seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:31:01 JesseH: Did you find the book Lisp in Small Pieces? 03:34:09 That I did. :-) 03:34:16 It looks nice, but is long. 03:34:21 Yes, a bit. 03:34:32 I don't want to commit my life to lisp, but if I did, it would be a good start. :P 03:34:36 But it is quite well written. 03:34:51 Oh yeah, it looks very nice. 03:35:19 do people use denotational semantics still? 03:35:26 I am wondering rather to commit to reading it or not. See, I am wanting to implement a scheme interpreter, because people has said it is my next step into learning about interpreter and one day, compiler, design. :P 03:35:34 JesseH: You'll be assimilated soon enough. 03:35:47 If you're already planning on writing an interpreter, not reading it would be a disservice to you. 03:36:23 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 03:36:26 JesseH: I don't see why that makes you wonder. It looks to me like it is a must to read it then. 03:37:17 Bike: What makes you think that nobody is using denotational semantics anymore? 03:37:24 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-76-205-219.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:37:40 Because I've occasionally heard that operational semantics is more common now. 03:37:50 Well, in that case, it looks like i should probably read it then. 03:37:53 I am bad at judging books by reading only a few pages. 03:38:00 (And the one formal CS book I own that would use semantics happens to use operational.) 03:42:38 I suspect it depends on the purpose. 03:44:22 JesseH: I definitely recommend it. Furthermore, the English translation is excellent, and the English version is better than the original French version. 03:44:22 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:44:47 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:43 Well, it seems that the internet agrees with you, so its def now on my list. 03:45:47 beach: I am curious in what ways it is better? 03:48:25 PuercoPop: Actually, I am just saying what many people told me. I read the French version entirely, but I am only now reading the English version. Plus, I know the translator personally. 03:48:42 -!- Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49:12 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.225] has joined #lisp 03:49:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@92.46.25.225] has quit [Changing host] 03:49:13 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 03:49:18 *PuercoPop* nods I just started reading the English version but I don't know French. 03:50:21 -!- _tca [~user@h151.25.91.207.static.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55:45 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #lisp 03:56:57 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.116.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:17 nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.116.138] has joined #lisp 04:00:21 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.116.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:00:48 nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.149.241] has joined #lisp 04:01:56 nipra [~nipra@122.177.51.116] has joined #lisp 04:12:55 -!- Vivitron [~Vivitron@c-50-172-44-193.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:15:08 beach: I know the translator personally  Hah! 04:17:26 I take it you know how? 04:17:38 :) 04:17:52 you're such a sellout ;P 04:17:53 beach: Indeed :) 04:17:55 -!- jleija [~jleija@50.15.142.21] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:18:08 beach, how do you know him 04:18:16 JesseH: She is my wife. 04:18:30 How do you know?!? lol i joke 04:18:37 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:18:45 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:18:52 smooth recovery, jesse. 04:20:15 Oh i just got that 04:20:24 hmm, well i say him because everyone that does anything is usually a man 04:20:54 *beach* will refrain from commenting on that last statement. 04:20:57 don't be sexist. 04:21:12 hmm 04:21:12 How shall I recover from this 04:21:12 :P 04:23:30 lol 04:23:30 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:23:33 I joke! 04:23:44 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:09 let's just drop it and move on, shall we 04:24:52 yano [yano@freenode/staff/yano] has joined #lisp 04:28:49 I hope it would not be taken that seriously. 04:28:55 I mean, my name is Jesse. 04:28:57 :P 04:29:05 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:39 alezost [~user@128-70-199-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 04:33:39 -!- CrazyEddy [~unelucida@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:33:42 -!- duggiefresh [~quassel@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:44:26 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45:00 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:01 -!- drmeister 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#lisp 08:11:07 -!- ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:11:08 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14:08 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:14:54 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:30:34 -!- ejohnson [~Thunderbi@c-67-181-201-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ejohnson] 08:31:59 is there a difference between NIL and (VALUES)? 08:32:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:32:35 nil will still pass one value: nil 08:32:38 oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.74.152] has joined #lisp 08:32:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:05 i'm confused about it... in my REPL: NIL --> NIL, (VALUES) --> ; No Value, (LIST NIL) --> (NIL), (LIST (VALUES)) --> (NIL) 08:34:36 I guess that (LIST (VALUES)) is like (LIST) :) 08:35:19 phadthai: I think you might be guessing wrong. 08:35:28 oh actually it's different indeed 08:35:40 NIL vs (NIL) 08:35:55 thanks beach 08:35:59 robot-beethoven: when (values) is evaluated in a context that needs one or more values, then whatever values are not supplied are filled with NIL. 08:36:24 and welcome back, I'm not sure since when you're back, but I remember you being absent a while from this channel? 08:36:29 robot-beethoven: And when you evaluate (list (values)), the function call to LIST requires one value, so a single NIL is supplied. 08:36:40 phadthai: Thanks. 08:36:50 I probably won't be here as often as before. 08:37:35 robot-beethoven: Is that clear? 08:37:59 beach: that's perfect, thanks! 08:38:51 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:40:21 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:44:23 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:47:36 Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable194.190-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 08:48:35 Oh god that message from sabra was totally from 2012. I'm an idiot! Time to learn how to unschedule a memo from minion I guess.. 08:49:27 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:50:11 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:45 xan__ [~xan@80.174.78.193.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 08:52:19 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.193.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:53:00 -!- Hexstream [~hexstream@modemcable194.190-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 08:57:08 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.74.152] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 08:58:24 oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.74.152] has joined #lisp 08:58:32 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:59:02 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:59:45 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@62.18.74.152] has quit [Client Quit] 09:00:48 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:00:53 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-240-92.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:01:02 maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:29 minion: forget my memos 09:01:29 You didn't have any memos! 09:01:53 I have to do that? 09:01:58 minion: forget my memos 09:01:58 You didn't have any memos! 09:02:08 minion: does loke have to do that? 09:02:08 maybe 09:03:17 minion: read my memos 09:03:17 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 09:03:21 :( 09:03:29 minion: get my memos 09:03:29 you speak nonsense 09:03:53 no cookies for you! 09:05:09 theos: If you want to experiment with minion, you can send private messages with /msg minion ... 09:05:10 09:05:56 maxter_ [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:04 if you want to really experiment, you can read its source code 09:06:30 https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/tree/master/minion 09:06:51 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:06:58 minion: what is a giraffe 09:06:58 maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot 09:07:16 minion: what do you know? 09:07:16 i can't divulge what i know 09:07:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 09:07:41 ggole [~ggole@106-68-147-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:08:23 you can read all the answers in https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots/blob/master/minion/eliza-rules.lisp 09:09:02 nice hahaha 09:09:12 -!- maxter [~maxter@sundownness.lullaby.volia.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:09:37 minion: no 09:09:37 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``no''. 09:10:07 for single entries it search cliki or its own definition db 09:10:41 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 09:11:13 minion: advice 11958 09:11:13 The bug is in you, not in Lisp. 09:16:04 bitonic [~user@xdsl-188-155-179-93.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:16:53 mishoo [~mishoo@93.113.190.121] has joined #lisp 09:22:58 leo2007 [~leo@123.115.247.3] has joined #lisp 09:23:37 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:24:34 heh nice :D 09:27:31 minion: i have seen you steal the cookies 09:27:31 i haven't seen you steal the cookies either 09:28:10 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:14 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 09:31:10 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-240-92.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:35:52 -!- Anderson [~user@67.190.238.152] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:37:30 mfo [mfo@orm.abc.se] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:44:29 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 09:45:07 -!- wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 09:50:02 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-155-117.netcologne.de] 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10:44:09 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:44:09 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:21 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:49 sigrlami [~sigrlami@188-115-151-100.broadband.tenet.odessa.UA] has joined #lisp 10:51:39 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:52:35 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 10:52:35 -!- leo2007 [~leo@123.115.247.3] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 10:52:47 Hi everyone, I'm porting library from CL to Emacs Lisp, what is proper replacement for `declaim' , `proclaim' ,`inline' etc. declarations. I found info that el compiler ignores them, maybe there is some porting guide on the web? 10:52:50 Nuupi [~IceChat9@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc6e-235.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:53:32 sigrlami: why do you need them? 10:55:21 capisce: because they are used in CL code, I want analogs for EL 10:55:43 sigrlami: what if there are none? 10:56:00 sigrlami, you might not need them for the code to run 10:56:31 -!- CrazyEddy [~Aegina@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:58:48 capisce: than you might know some way around? use setq for everything? 10:59:58 jewel: i'm trying to translate as close as possible, since i don't want to write library from scratch 11:01:53 jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-89-145.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:01:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:02:28 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B10C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:58 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:20 cyc0 [~cyco@150.140.215.120] has joined #lisp 11:09:35 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:10:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:12:22 sigrlami: Even a conforming Common Lisp implementation is allowed to ignore most declarations such as type declarations, inline, etc. Therefore, there is a good chance that (as jewel says) your code may very well run without them. If you need to know details about Emacs Lisp, you might be better off asking in #emacs. 11:12:22 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:13:25 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:55 sigrlami: I'm not sure if it'll help, but there also is an elisp "common lisp" compatibility library if I remember, that might possibly make the task less tedious if you aren't already using it 11:16:28 davazp [~user@178.167.193.11.threembb.ie] has joined #lisp 11:22:18 beach: actually it's strange, if something written in code, there is reason for that. I'm ok with running it, but I actually want code to work properly too =). #emacs is sleepy right now. Anyway thanks for advise.. 11:24:06 phathai: yeah, I've seen this library and it still doesn't support a lot of features from CL, that's why I decided to port it. 11:24:07 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24:53 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:25:37 unquaking [~lapidify@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 11:26:01 -!- unquaking is now known as CrazyEddy 11:29:09 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-68-147-165.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:30:55 -!- Nuupi [~IceChat9@dsl-vntbrasgw1-50dc6e-235.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:32:03 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:38:27 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 11:39:36 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:10 ggole [~ggole@106-68-99-139.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:42:10 -!- cmm 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[~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:49:20 -!- theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has quit [Disconnected by services] 13:49:45 theos [~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #lisp 13:49:59 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:14 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:20 sigjuice [~sigjuice@192.241.139.168] has joined #lisp 13:53:04 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:57:14 JesseH: L.I.S.P. is not really about lisp, it's about writing interpreters and compilers. This is a subject interesting in itself, even for application programmers: ever heard of the "Interpreter Pattern"? What about reading files? (parsing), etc. 13:57:22 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 13:57:30 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 13:57:51 -!- pjb is now known as Guest1966 13:59:53 -!- jtza8 [~jtza8@105-236-89-145.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:00:42 sohail_ [~sohail@69-196-176-62.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:45 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-76-205-219.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:00:50 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:57 sigrlami: a CL implementation is allowed to ignore all the declarations, but special. 14:02:34 Guest1966: Well, NOTINLINE has to be honoured too 14:03:17 So you can write a proclaim function, and a declaim macro that expands to `(eval-when (compile load execute) (proclaim ',declarations)), and in proclaim look for (special var) declarations and evaluate (eval `(defvar ,var)) for each variable. 14:03:36 -!- Guest1966 is now known as pjb` 14:03:53 -!- pjb` is now known as pjb 14:03:59 Hi pjb! 14:04:07 Hi beach! 14:04:26 Yes, notinline too. 14:04:42 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp 14:05:45 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 14:05:48 Why did erc complete sigrlami when he was already logged out?!? 14:06:13 Doesn't do it for me. 14:06:27 I should have done something wrong. 14:06:42 -!- kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:08:45 bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-240-92.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:09:11 pjb: Are you living in France these days? 14:09:32 gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-240-92.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:09:46 Yes, I'm in Paris, well Issy Les Moulineaux. 14:10:05 No more Spain then? 14:10:15 For now at least :-) 14:10:52 pjb: Any interesting Lisp projects lately? 14:11:22 I'm working on this gsharp project. Currently reading midi files into a partition. 14:11:42 Wow. 14:11:44 Interesting! 14:12:06 I did some work on MIDI files a while back. 14:12:42 In general, it's not exactly trivial. Happily, in this specific case, there are some simplifications. 14:12:57 Yeah, I know. It can be complicated. 14:13:04 At IRCAM they have a program to listen to audio and generate corresponding midi files :-) 14:13:08 Getting accidentals right is fairly doable. 14:13:31 Getting durations right is VERY HARD! 14:13:57 Well in this case since the notation is chronosynchrone, it's the simple case :-) 14:14:11 Lucky you! :) 14:14:14 well "synchrone". 14:15:30 But that means I have to use my own note and cluster classes (or at least subclasses of them). 14:16:05 It was meant for that to be possible :) 14:16:08 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:16:29 Yes, that's what's nice with well structured OO programs. You don't find that in proprietary software! 14:18:10 Really? I don't get to look much at proprietary code. 14:18:24 pjb, Yes I have figured this out, i am def gonna read the book. 14:18:56 pjb: So I guess this project (reading MIDI files) is the same in which you need totally proportional spacing score-wide? 14:19:37 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.107.57] has joined #lisp 14:21:19 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 14:21:40 Yes. 14:21:53 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:22:18 ipmonger [~IPmonger@pool-72-94-39-57.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:55 I'd say the vast majority of commercial software is developed under high stress and time constraints, and let's say, by the general programming population. I've seen more often copy-and-pasting programming than any other paradigm 14:23:13 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp 14:23:35 pjb: Sounds right. 14:24:17 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:37 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:25:05 pjb: I have a different theory too. Since professional programmers get paid for their time, they have no incentive to make the code maintainable (they get paid to maintain it too), whereas to FLOSS programmers, time is very precious so they must make the software as maintainable as possible. 14:25:35 *beach* has no scientific evidence for that theory, though. 14:26:26 Well, in theory it should be true, but I'm not sure the layprogrammer think about that. It's more the time pressure he gets from management and sales. 14:26:45 me-alone [~me-alone@176.56.174.212] has joined #lisp 14:27:13 Or perhaps, the reasoning is that they won't be there to maintain it anyway, so they don't care. 14:27:22 pjb: Right. I didn't mean to say that this was some evil planned behavior. 14:27:24 hello 14:27:35 Hi me-alone 14:28:01 pjb: Yes, there are several reasons for the state of things. 14:28:01 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:28:35 of course. 14:28:47 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp 14:29:40 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:29:49 -!- bl0 [~x0a@91.150.147.9.internetia.net.pl] has left #lisp 14:30:34 me-alone: New here? 14:31:31 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:32:53 It's according to how sneaky and clever the paid programmer is? Hmm 14:32:57 Interesting topic. 14:33:48 kiuma [~kiuma@2-230-138-74.ip202.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:34:05 No, I'd attribute it more to incompetence. 14:34:16 But incompetence can be induced by stress, there are studies about it. 14:34:36 PHBs can easily lower IQ of their workers by 10 or 20 points. 14:34:51 and lower their creativity to the floor. 14:35:03 abeaumont [~abeaumont@233.red-80-28-16.adsl.static.ccgg.telefonica.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:07 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:19 "work for me, I'll fix it later if somebody complain" 14:35:40 pjb: Do you remember any reference that I can read? 14:36:25 https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=stress+creativity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 14:36:39 Well, I guess its more about getting to the finish line of the project, as quickly as possible and the level of code, of course, depends on how well of a programmer the person working on it is. 14:36:42 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:03 pjb: Thanks :) 14:37:12 Further references in https://notes.utk.edu/Bio/greenberg.nsf/0/7a033128f68632c985256b4a0053b0a6?OpenDocument 14:37:46 and it's not only creativity, beyond stress, there's fear, and regression of higher level brain functions down to the reptilian brain. 14:37:48 pjb: Great! 14:38:18 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has joined #lisp 14:38:29 Hence the conspiracy theory that most our politicians are reptiles :-) In fact they live most in terror and fear and only their reptilian brain works. 14:38:30 I might put all this in a book some day. 14:38:44 hehe. 14:40:22 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@121.236.116.138] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40:26 JesseH: That might sound plausible, BUT my experience is that professional programmers work incredibly inefficiently, which seems to contradict what they all claim (got to finish quickly, so little time, ...) 14:40:34 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5B2B10C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 JesseH: For one thing, they systematically choose low-productivity programming languages. :) 14:41:04 Well, I have never worked as a professional programmer. Are you saying that they are not as productive as people say? O_o 14:41:15 define "productive". 14:41:47 beach, I would imagine. 14:41:49 JesseH: Yes, that's what I am saying. I worked as a professional programmer, and I can tell you they are among the most conservative bunch I have seen. 14:41:52 shifty` [~user@114-198-24-53.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:42:22 suggestions for serializing closures? 14:42:26 pjb: If we had such a definition, things might actually start looking better. Alas, we don't. 14:42:32 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:43 beach, I know an answer. Don't hire because someone has a degree. :P 14:42:45 *JesseH* rants 14:43:07 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:19 JesseH: Yes, and don't hire someone just because he or she does NOT have one, and is thus cheaper. 14:43:40 There are some of us out in this cold cruel unproductive world that like the coffee, low amounts of sleep, and commits out the arse. 14:44:16 (and good documentation, i always almost forget to say that) 14:47:28 -!- me-alone [~me-alone@176.56.174.212] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:47:33 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:48:02 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:19 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 14:49:52 -!- CrazyEddy [~lapidify@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:51:25 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@pppoe55.net109-37.omkc.ru] has quit [Read 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you want (I use ~/src/public/lisp) and make a symlink into ~/quicklisp/localprojects/ 17:22:23 ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 17:22:34 pjb, will it automatically look up for *.asd files in dirs recursively? 17:22:39 Yes. 17:22:55 Now, I use asdf:*central-registry* when I have to work temporarily on a project. 17:23:21 Often, I have a loader.lisp file that does this push and ql:quickload the project (plus some other things, there's always something to do there). 17:24:57 pjb: thanks 17:32:55 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:34:07 -!- jrghigli` is now known as |JRG| 17:39:26 Corvidium [~cosman246@nat60-100.net.kcls.org] has joined #lisp 17:43:01 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:36 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 STilda [~STilda@188.162.167.38] has joined #lisp 17:47:48 -!- STilda 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CrazyEddy [~beakerman@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 18:33:36 chris_l [~quassel@p57A5CD0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:33:48 maxter [~maxter@gaffeless.chaperon.volia.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:29 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:56 loke` [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:b132:ac27:229c:b4fd] has joined #lisp 18:38:42 -!- loke [~user@2400:d803:7342:f91a:ec30:842e:3a1c:8011] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:39:03 -!- arenz [~arenz@37.17.234.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:39:53 fchurca [~fchurca@181.29.122.169] has joined #lisp 18:40:03 hullo 18:40:42 sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 hillo 18:41:21 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-178-71.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41:34 This may be more of a C than a CL question but I'm implementing tagged FIXNUMs and in ECL tagged FIXNUMs are untagged using (tagged_val>>2) On 32 bit systems won't that cause problems on C compilers that don't use arithmetic right shift? 18:41:34 arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:42:04 Does anyone know any news on CL on Android? 18:42:35 mocl doesn't have a free trial, and I've read a bit about ABCL+jss, but haven't got around to trying it yet 18:42:45 seg [~seg@fsf/member/seg] has joined #lisp 18:43:20 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p5DC63FFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:45:52 -!- fchurca [~fchurca@181.29.122.169] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:46:01 fchurca: there are 3 basic implementation strategies: compile to Java (ABCL), compile engine to C and interpret (clisp, ECL, mocl), compile to native ARM (ccl). dunno if any of those actually runs on Android (nor do I see much point, come to think of it, but what do I know) 18:47:50 fchurca [~fchurca@181.29.122.169] has joined #lisp 18:48:24 also you can run Linux in a chroot (there are even apps that make it easy) -- clisp _might_ build and run under that 18:51:05 -!- beach [~user@ABordeaux-651-1-66-80.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:52:24 -!- BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:52:35 Sorry, I glitched out and may have missed a couple messages; i only received the clisp chroot one 18:53:02 Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-159-243.dhcp4.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 18:53:54 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:54:27 there was also a suggestion to look at ccl, but you probably already did 18:55:41 and there's Clojure, and probably several Schemes... 18:56:28 arnas [arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 18:56:45 -!- arnas [arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Client Quit] 18:57:05 I've googled ccl, but android doesn't seem to be actively supported there. Please do correct me if I'm wrong tho. 18:57:47 namccarty [~namccarty@74-131-94-214.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:50 -!- namccarty [~namccarty@74-131-94-214.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 18:57:55 -!- Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:58:10 Although I was looking for a more CL-ly approach, having little experience with Clojure and Scheme, it could be a good idea to try those 18:58:19 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:58:25 -!- arnsa [arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:58:57 oudeis [~oudeis@host26-194-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:59:23 <|3b|> cmm: abcl compiles to jvm bytecode, not java, ecl and mocl compile CL to C then compile that to native, while clisp has its own bytecode. 18:59:50 <|3b|> ccl, ecl and mocl all run on android (mocl only runs on android and ios as far as i know) 19:00:13 fchurca: CCL cannot integrate directly with Android in their current form (it can use SL4A, but that's ... miserable compared to API access) 19:00:58 ECL allows you to make "NativeActivity" (as well as anything other you can fit within NDK). It's painful, as anything that touches NDK 19:01:06 cpt_nemo [cpt_nemo@rfc1459.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:12 mocl takes away a lot of the pain in exchange for various limitations 19:01:28 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:03:10 BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:03:38 to be honest, I think CL got better android support than Clojure :> 19:03:39 Which are those limitations? 19:04:19 fchurca: last time I checked you could call only one way. Unfortunately, documentation isn't accessible to those without licenses (or at least wasn't) so I can't check 19:04:25 Also, mocl is more of a subset of CL iirc 19:05:08 <|3b|> BitPuffin: if you were looking for a 3d math lib, might try sb-cga 19:05:44 p_l: so far yes. 19:05:47 wukix.com/mocl says calls can be done both ways now :3 19:06:00 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 19:06:24 Unless I'm reading anything wrong 19:06:54 It does show calling CL from Java 19:07:01 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:18 s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:26 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 19:07:28 fchurca: the questions is about calling the other way around 19:07:33 calling CL from java was from start 19:07:53 Oh 19:08:13 Hm, how about mocl+jss? Has anyone triet that? 19:08:36 *tried 19:10:11 what you need is to find docs on getting some calls to certain C functions and manually (or with your own macros) implement calling back to Java 19:10:25 mocl also runs under NDK, it just takes care of it for you 19:11:30 boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 That does sound a tad involved 19:14:58 How much of the API does the NDK cover? 19:15:28 -!- TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:16:48 fchurca: VERY little. It's mostly made to ease portability of games and as possible extension of normal applications with faster (or ported) code 19:18:07 abeaumont [~abeaumont@77.231.228.45] has joined #lisp 19:18:28 Hm; does it cover interfacing with Java? 19:18:32 TristamWrk [~tristamwr@bodhilinux/team/Tristam] has joined #lisp 19:18:53 Yes, the Android system is implemented by java classes, so even with the NDK, I would guess that some java code runs inside the process. The NDK is made to run libraries. 19:19:08 fchurca: you can use (low-level) JNI stuff, which as it happens covers both ways 19:19:22 But then, you can put all your application in a library and call it from "main", so why not do the same with the NDK. 19:19:55 -!- gabnet [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-246-31.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:21:47 fchurca: just take into account latencies etc. 19:22:07 -!- arenz [~arenz@HSI-KBW-109-193-252-079.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:23:06 Sounds interesting, although I don't have USD200 to spare for the mocl license 19:25:57 Has anyone played with ecl in android lately then? 19:27:46 or ccl 19:30:16 I tried ccl on arm emulator just before raspberry pi went out. It worked nicely. 19:31:03 There's certainly more work to invest on those implementation to make development for android and ios seamless, but it seems to me that you'd get results more easily with them today than with mocl. 19:31:17 -!- BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:31:34 In six month it may be different, but if you have to produce an iOS or android application today, then I'd do it with ccl or ecl. 19:32:22 You may also consider that the fact that mocl doesn't encompass UI development is a problem, or not. 19:33:02 With the meta programming features of CL, you could easily write a lisp program that would work equally well on iOS and MacOSX, and even on Android for the most part. 19:33:07 including UI. 19:34:47 Actually what I had in mind was a smallish app in Android alone, although time is a constraint. 19:35:02 fchurca: what kind of app? UI-heavy? 19:35:34 I'll try later the mocl examples and report about them. It may still be useful. 19:36:17 But also, on the couple of mobile apps I've worked so far, it was all UI, the actually processing being done by system libraries or on the cloud servers. 19:36:28 So there remains not much to be done in lisp, if you don't do the UI in it 19:36:47 -!- Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:36:51 Well, it'd be mostly UI, but it wouldn't be really "heavy". I don't have many details tho yet. 19:36:55 well, both are important, and you can do UI in NDK... you just can't use Android libs for it 19:37:12 heavier things are stuff like integration with services etc. 19:37:24 Patzy [~something@lns-bzn-51f-81-56-151-137.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:28 and UI takes a lot of care even with Android libs that lift a lot of it for you 19:37:31 precisely as it'd be a frontend for a simplish cloud service 19:37:54 Yes, that's the use case where there's no processing left to be done in mocl. 19:38:47 not necessarily. I had an app that slowly started evolving to have all of its "business logic" implemented in C (so we could just maintain one lib and have it work everywhere), and UI was done per-platform 19:39:02 fchurca: if time is a constraint you might want to use Qt for Android and QML for the UI 19:41:41 As in CommonQT + CCL? 19:42:16 fchurca: CCL won't even get display resource from Android 19:42:31 BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 19:42:40 unfortunately CommonQT is still on Qt 4.x which doesn't have great support for Android, if any 19:42:40 (you'd have to override system, possibly crashing system_server in process...) 19:43:05 and is still based on the QWidget stack which is being phased out in favor of QtQuick and QML 19:43:29 I believe Common Lisp and QML would be a potent combination actually 19:43:33 capisce: even then, CCL won't get necessary resources... maybe with some very weird execve() trampoline 19:47:01 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Must not waste too much time here...] 19:47:07 -!- axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:47:24 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:52 capisce: do you rather mean that it should be embedded into the NDK environment, writting a new main for it? 19:48:10 s/capisce/p_l/ 19:48:44 Being new to android, I'm not 100% sure what system_server is, but it sounds like crashing it would be, although dangerous, fun 19:48:46 pjb: not *main*, there's no main in NDK. But you get (as of 2.3 with NativeActivity) a native event loop 19:49:00 fchurca: to end user it would be as the phone has restarted 19:49:27 system_server is "root" of the android runtime hierarchy, involved in spawning and coordinating applications and their resources 19:49:45 Kind of like init? 19:49:55 kind of 19:50:06 if it crashes, you get even the bootanimation again 19:51:48 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@host26-194-dynamic.50-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:52:08 Not nice to crash it then 19:53:20 capisce: How could I use Qt from CL on Android then? 19:53:26 for NDK, your native code has to be compiled into a shared library, and either be called by Java code, or use the NativeActivity shim (which transfers event loop handling to native, but *only in the scope of one activity*) 19:53:51 fchurca: ... honestly? Qt on Android is probably going to always feel oddball, clunky and in wrong place 19:54:41 Well, he did suggest it. Any suggestions are welcome. 19:55:11 Obviously, you can't use it manage "windows", but for subviews, it should be ok. 19:55:31 Of course some adaptation of the layouts would be needed compared to a desktop application. 19:55:55 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:55:59 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:56:41 arnas [~arnsa@78-63-18-208.static.zebra.lt] has joined #lisp 19:57:45 p_l: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjejfT5gFd4 19:57:49 puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:29 -!- puchacz [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:00:12 That does seem interesting, what language does he use? C++ probably? 20:00:27 -!- BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:00:30 (not seen the vid yet) 20:00:34 fchurca: yeah, but primarily QML 20:01:11 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 20:01:18 which is a UI language built on top of JavaScript 20:02:01 ... sounds like asking for a world of hurt when on mobile, frankly speaking. But maybe with more direct drawing compared to webkit it isn't so bad 20:02:39 Does QML cover programming or is it focused on describing the UI alone? 20:02:46 p_l: yeah, it actually performs better than the "native" Android frameworks 20:03:39 fchurca: you can write full applications with it actually 20:04:09 it's pretty much the most productive way of making UIs as far as I'm concerned 20:04:33 Interesting 20:05:27 capisce: afaik the killer with android native framework is when you don't check for overdraw and GC 20:05:31 here's an application being live-coded: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pqL5bXe0A 20:06:20 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.214.126] has joined #lisp 20:06:26 p_l: I believe the rendering with the android frameworks is done imperatively, instead of declaratively 20:06:54 http://www.satine.org/archives/2011/01/01/the-care-and-feeding-of-the-android-gpu/ 20:07:17 capisce: it's declarative for many parts 20:07:37 depends on how you implement them. Ultimately both QML and Android drop down to imperative 20:08:12 not really, QML 2 in Qt 5.2 will let you run animations on a rendering thread for instance 20:08:33 you declare that a scene graph element moves from position A to position B 20:09:18 and then the animation is done without a render() function or similar needing to be called in the application each frame 20:09:28 capisce: same on android 20:09:49 the fact that you *can* drop in to render per-frame, doesn't need you have to 20:10:00 the problem is when you have multiple overlapping draw regions 20:10:01 what do you mean that they both drop down to imperative then? 20:10:17 and why are overlapping draw regions a problem? 20:10:32 capisce: your declarative model needs to be serialized into something the very imperative GPU will process 20:10:35 apart from some overdraw (which you might want if you're blending) 20:10:42 sure 20:10:51 *planned* overdraw vs. unnecessary overdraw 20:10:59 but that can be done on a dedicated thread, retaining a lot of vertex buffers etc on the GPU 20:11:12 a thread that doesn't invoke a GC 20:11:22 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:11:34 iOS supposedly managed being "smooth" by simply not having any blending, whatsoever, in GUI 20:11:59 Well, nowadays with UI like iOS7, you could easily make a CLIM application that would fit perfectly well. Just choose the right font and colors :-) 20:12:11 iOS also has a threaded rendering model 20:12:25 I don't think blending is such a problem these days 20:12:30 but yeah, it was two-three years ago :) 20:12:42 capisce: still is. Memory bandwidth is killer 20:13:06 yep, but that's what GPUs are good at 20:13:27 austinja [~austinja@c-50-133-251-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:38 capisce: except the GPU shares bandwidth with your CPU 20:14:09 don't make the mistake of assuming similar performance on mobile chip as with the crotch rocket that even a cheapo used laptop from few years ago is 20:14:18 (in terms of Amdahl's Law) 20:14:37 newer smart phones pack a lot of punch 20:15:02 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:15:20 capisce: mostly localized. Many tradeoffs etc. that you don't have on PC 20:16:42 p_l: here's an application that does a lot of blending as well as shader effects on three android devices for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzNWqoJRFsc 20:17:50 capisce: I'm not saying it's impossible, but when you factor in having to deal with low-end devices... or devices clogged with crap... 20:18:02 sure 20:18:23 I'm just saying from what I've seen Qt achieves better performance 20:18:58 fchurca: all these UIs and games are written using QML: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJh3Xy2QKI 20:19:18 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:14 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:20:45 Let's see 20:21:04 ditto for this awesome demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhWS_bN-T3k :) 20:22:08 so Qt 5 bindings for Common Lisp are sorely missing 20:27:00 Indeed 20:29:43 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-126.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:29:47 -!- Corvidium [~cosman246@D-69-91-159-243.dhcp4.washington.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:30:25 -!- kushal [~kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:31:15 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:36:02 Beetny [~Beetny@ppp118-208-146-136.lns20.bne1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:47 acieroid` [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has joined #lisp 20:37:38 -!- acieroid [~acieroid@wtf.awesom.eu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37:42 gabnet__ [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-246-31.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:38:15 -!- LiamH [~none@pool-173-76-205-219.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:38:45 schoppenhauer [~quassel@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:39:50 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:42:43 -!- gabnet__ [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-246-31.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:25 -!- austinja [~austinja@c-50-133-251-129.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: austinja] 20:44:53 gabnet__ [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-246-31.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:45:10 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:46:05 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #lisp 20:46:50 -!- chris_l [~quassel@p57A5CD0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:55 effy_ [~quassel@114.246.87.188] has joined #lisp 20:52:04 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 20:53:18 hi, who maintains arnesi these days? 20:53:21 (if anybody) 20:54:54 -!- effy [~quassel@123.122.68.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:57:02 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:06 -!- benny [~user@i577A819F.versanet.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:58:45 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:01:25 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:03:01 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.62] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 21:05:03 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.62] has joined #lisp 21:07:26 anybody knows why i would not get the same result evaled for a hashed function in maxima ? 21:07:38 a second eval just diminishes the previous result.... 21:08:03 erm, it does not display anymore i meant.... 21:08:34 Well, thanks for your help guys, I'm gonna keep reading. See you around 21:08:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-200.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09:23 -!- fchurca [~fchurca@181.29.122.169] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:23 nha [~prefect@koln-5d815efc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:32 Corvidium [~cosman246@c-24-143-118-11.customer.broadstripe.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:46 -!- ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:16:32 s0ber_ [~s0ber@114-36-246-117.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:55 JesseH [~JesseH@ip98-164-152-51.mc.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:56 -!- JesseH [~JesseH@ip98-164-152-51.mc.at.cox.net] has quit [Changing host] 21:17:56 JesseH [~JesseH@unaffiliated/jesseh] has joined #lisp 21:18:24 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-166.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:18:24 -!- boogie [~boogie@ip68-101-218-78.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:18:45 -!- s0ber_ is now known as s0ber 21:21:00 resttime [~rest@par0192.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 21:21:00 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21:20 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:36 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 21:30:30 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 21:31:42 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:31:49 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:06 oleo: probably you have a side effect there. 21:33:06 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:15 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:36:48 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:14 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-199-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:41:05 Pooze [~secret@h-176-10-249-226.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 21:42:05 ya ok solved it.... 21:42:19 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 21:42:41 when i use same index names [k, n]:= for k:0 thru k....for n:0 thru n....it happens.... 21:43:09 otherwise it's fine.... 21:43:48 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.62] has joined #lisp 21:45:25 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46:22 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:48:12 killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has joined #lisp 21:48:48 -!- Pooze [~secret@h-176-10-249-226.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:48:48 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:49:02 -!- puchacz_ [~puchacz@46-65-36-47.zone16.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:49:22 cmm 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[Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:05:14 -!- killerboy [~mateusz@staticline-31-183-61-68.toya.net.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:05:18 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:06:41 -!- bjorkintosh [~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:10:30 -!- gabnet__ [~gabnet@ACaen-652-1-246-31.w90-17.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:11:51 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:51 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:12:13 looks like buildapp is failing to output anything in my vagrant tests here, or it's going to take more time than I care to wait for 23:13:24 -!- danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.62] has quit [Quit: danielszmulewicz] 23:15:23 danielszmulewicz [~danielszm@109.226.23.62] has joined #lisp 23:16:53 -!- |JRG| [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-222-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 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