00:02:50 -!- BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 00:06:40 zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.20.65] has joined #lisp 00:08:55 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 00:08:59 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:11:25 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@86.184.13.60] has left #lisp 00:13:31 -!- echo-area [~user@123.120.252.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13:39 jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-173-67-27-249.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:16 optikalmouse [~optikalmo@69-165-245-60.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:17:52 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-13-60.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:01 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-13-60.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:18:36 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-13-60.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:50 holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:16 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:13 patbarron [~pat@lectroid.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:07 resttime [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has joined #lisp 00:33:34 rationalrevolt_ [~rationalr@pool-173-54-189-40.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:19 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:41:34 -!- shridhar [Shridhar@nat/redhat/x-owarsbbolxopujqr] has quit [Quit: shridhar] 00:44:26 ryankarason [~rak@108-245-58-182.lightspeed.clmboh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:36 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 00:45:21 -!- resttime [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 00:46:39 resttime [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has joined #lisp 00:47:52 razieliyo [~razieliyo@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has joined #lisp 00:48:00 hi 00:49:45 -!- duggiefresh [~quassel@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:50:21 I'm about to make an id3 implementation in lisp, and one basic question fly around my mind: what kind of structure to use for the learning dataset? do you think a list of lists be ok? 00:50:23 -!- quazimodo [~quazimodo@sun1093165.lnk.telstra.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:50:51 -!- Quare [~Q@174.Red-83-42-44.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Quare] 00:51:16 xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:25 -!- xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:53:02 razieliyo: Best advice I know of is use lists / alists as your starting point and change the data structure when you run into problems. 00:53:03 xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:19 -!- xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:53:47 xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:53 plathrop: but shouldn't I have the data organized so that I can know which attribute go with which object? 00:56:31 I think I'll need some 2D like data structure, and the only thing that comes to my mind is a list of lists 00:57:16 I'm reading data from csv files if that matters 00:59:21 razieliyo: i think you can organize the data using an alist 01:00:25 resttime: oh, plathrop told me that too, but didn't find any info on what is an alist, so I thought it was a weird typo 01:00:45 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-251-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:09 -!- harish [~harish@175.156.240.60] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:01:09 okay, assoc list 01:01:11 nah, there are functions i the CL standard that helps you go therough them 01:01:49 technically they are just a list themselves 01:02:20 because they are 01:03:22 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:28 (defparameter alist '((a apple) (b banana) (c cranberry))) 01:03:28 -!- DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@1.146.1.181] has quit [Quit: Disconnecting -- bye] 01:03:42 (assoc a) ==> (a apple) 01:04:17 fine, I get it 01:04:24 thank you really 01:04:59 -!- razieliyo [~razieliyo@unaffiliated/razieliyo] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 01:05:28 actually on the topic of data structures 01:05:34 -!- seangrove [~user@208.80.69.42] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:06:02 ryankarason, (assoc 'a alist) to be clear 01:06:06 any thoughts on how to model the data structure for molecules 01:06:15 Quadrescence: you know i *almost* corrected myself 01:06:22 ryankarason, what does "molecule" mean here? 01:06:23 and then i thought, meh they'll figure it. 01:06:31 you mean chemical formulas? 01:06:45 maybe you mean actual physical molecules? 01:06:54 yes 01:06:59 let's say caffiene for instance 01:07:23 how would you describe the model of the molecule? 01:07:47 so let's say for caffiene 01:07:52 i would be trying to represent this 01:07:54 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Caffeine-2D-skeletal.svg 01:07:57 well molecules are very complex things and there are all sorts of corner cases, but the data structure I'd use is something like: make an Atom type and a Bond type, and the Bond type can be of several different subtypes (covalent, ionic, double, triples, etc), and just construct the molecule that way 01:08:26 this is basically just a graph data structure 01:08:37 see i was also thinking that 01:08:52 it is just a weird graph and i feel like a lot of the standard shortcuts can not be used 01:08:56 for convenience, I'd also include information about the chemical formula, so certain things can be efficiently queried 01:09:06 i plan to 01:09:18 i have already created alists of the elements themselves 01:09:33 atomic number, symbol, name, weight, density 01:10:03 for the chemical formula, a sorted alist of elements + their multiplicity in the molecule works. 01:10:14 and yes, you can have that "periodic table" encoded somewhere as well 01:10:17 aye that sounds wise 01:10:37 i essentially have all the periodic table model, next time is molecules 01:11:12 lists of 2 tuples makes sense for formula 01:12:12 well if you make something, let me know. i'm interested in that kind of stuff 01:12:12 thanks for your braining. 01:12:22 Quadrescence: will do 01:13:19 i already have the elements part loaded in a bot 01:13:58 JulianGindi [~textual@c-69-251-73-33.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:39 -!- gzg [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:10 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-251-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:17:11 -!- foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:18:31 -!- holycow [~holycow@host-216-251-135-194.bchsia.skywaywest.net] has left #lisp 01:18:58 lyanchih [~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:53 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.106.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:21:00 cmm [~cmm@109.66.106.171] has joined #lisp 01:22:43 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:24:49 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.106.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:29:41 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:30:15 cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-106-171.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:24 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:31 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-109-66-106-171.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:35:14 cmm [~cmm@109.66.106.171] has joined #lisp 01:35:30 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:36:47 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:32 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:39:51 So, with ECL. I would take my application, with its functions and all, integrate ECL, and then get what? 01:40:14 It depends on how you integrate. 01:40:21 an application that is extensible in CL 01:40:35 You can embed ECL into a C program. Or you can embed C code into ECL. 01:41:20 so if I went with ECL into a C program, how would I use my new application with lisp code? 01:41:35 i would have c versions of (load-file ..) or the like? 01:42:00 and in C, I could call into the lisp, image? 01:42:02 -!- rationalrevolt_ [~rationalr@pool-173-54-189-40.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:42:02 you could use that, or you could just call a lisp entry point that uses the lisp function load 01:42:39 You'd compile your CL modules into C libraries and link them into your C program along with the ECL runtime library. 01:43:05 And then you could initialize the runtime and then just call directly from C, iirc. 01:43:08 can you expount on the first part of your sentence? 01:43:22 No. Please ask a more specific question. 01:43:29 jangle: .lisp -> .so ;) 01:43:47 ok, 01:43:53 how do I compile a cl module into a c library 01:44:02 what defines a cl module in the first place? 01:44:13 Have a look at the ECL builder thingy -- it's documented, iirc. 01:44:32 jangle: Back in the day, you could use asdf:build-op  but I havent used ECL in quite some time. 01:44:57 ok, thanks. 01:46:19 other than compiling to C, ECL also has an interpreter, if not all Lisp code is to be built to OS loadable object files (i.e. short user scripts, lack of a C compiler on the system, etc) 01:46:59 hmm ok 01:47:45 antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-165-73.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 01:48:44 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:45 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:48:45 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:48:50 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:50:21 hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:51:32 harish [harish@nat/redhat/x-mksymmvnncdnrhhh] has joined #lisp 01:52:43 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:52:46 forgive me if this question is convoluted, but, lets say that I have a c++ application, and I want to present some data to a lisp. I understand that cffi is supposed to work with c libraries. as I've heard that some libraries seem to have both c and c++ interfaces, so in that light, what do I need to consider when deciding whether or not to expose the data over a socket, or figuring out how to pull out the data into a shared 01:52:47 library with a C interface, and integrate with cffi? 01:53:07 Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 01:53:18 if I am confusing some terms please feel free to say as much 01:53:49 jangle, i'm not sure what you "need to consider", but most of the time I've made a shared library in C that uses the C++, and write CFFI from lisp 01:54:14 that has been easier and to some extent more portable than doing stuff over sockets 01:54:50 Quadrescence: I guess what I'm looking for is if it sounds like I am understanding what is and isn't possible to do. 01:55:06 well both of those sound possible 01:56:17 I need to measure some things, but I have a feeling that the amount of data I want to share out to lisp would make it prohibitive to use a socket, althought I'm still only expecting to talk to the same machine 01:56:29 so maybe I'm kidding myself about how much of a bottleneck it might become 01:57:05 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 01:57:21 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 01:59:22 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:33 baumy [~baumy@unaffiliated/jbaumy93] has joined #lisp 02:00:55 bit of a random question, but does anybody know the clisp equivalent of the sbcl "--load" flag? cant seem to get it right 02:01:01 at the same time, I'm wondering if this is a good problem to try to use cffi, if indeed this is the kind of thing its used for. I've never used shared libraries before, so I'm assuming that If I wish to use one, I would be able to make a large array of MyCustomDataStructures, implement some thread safe accessor controls, build the library, include the right files in my main app, allocate something or call mysharedlibdatawrite(ma 02:01:01 app data) "little shakey on the details", and then figure out how to use cffi to allow for the lisp code to call some library exposed mysharedlibdataread 02:01:04 if there is a lot of data to share on the lisp side, it probably would be best to have that data stored as lisp structures, and use the C facilities to manipulate those objects from C (or at least have a copy of those lisp-friendly objects regularily updated); the alternative is to wrap C/C++ objects using accessor functions but that might decrease performance if they cannot be inlined 02:01:26 I don't think there would be much (or anything) stored on the lisp side that would need to go back into the main app 02:01:31 eg, `xterm -e sbcl --load /usr/share/common-lisp/source/slime/start-swank.lisp &`, whats the equivalent line to start clisp instead 02:02:30 jangle: Well, if you're not using threads then it gets simpler. 02:03:19 These days, the first thing that I ask myself when tempted to use a FFI is -- might this be a reasonable case for serialized IPC? 02:03:29 baumy: according to the man page synopsis it seems that a lisp file can be provided (without an option/switch) 02:03:38 Rather, "might this be a reasonable case for sockets?" 02:03:47 Zhivago: I am using threads in my main application, but I can handle getting the data safely "somewhere lisp readable", and indeed, I expect to ship the data out in only one thread. I was just assuming that having the lisp intance fetching data and the main app writing data that I 'd have to do some sort of guarding 02:03:49 jangle: what does your data look like? is it a C++ datastructure? 02:04:07 baumy, clisp -i /../start-swank.lisp ? 02:04:11 Would shipping the data over a socket be too expensive? 02:04:17 FAre: yes it is 02:04:24 -!- Nuupi [~IceChat9@a91-154-110-47.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.] 02:04:34 Zhivago: I don't know, I should probably find that out 02:04:44 if it helps, I'm trying to use clisp with slimv, and replacing the command a bit down the page here: http://kovisoft.bitbucket.org/tutorial.html 02:04:45 Fare: although, its not a c++ object, just a struct 02:04:49 i will try those, thanks 02:04:58 zophy [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:00 Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:02 -!- Vutral [~ss@vutral.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:05:02 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:05:08 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:05:16 MoRoSKiT [~jean@115.7.139.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:24 I don't know how well or badly CFFI fares with C++ data structures as opposed to C (I imagine that C++ multiple inheritance can cause slots to have different offsets in each subclass) 02:05:41 oh, a C struct, no problem -- CFFI can handle that for you 02:07:19 I'll admit some ignorance in this regard, but essentially what I want to play with is a namespace (and maybe not even), an enum, and two structs 02:07:57 I don't know anything about namespace, but enum's and structs look trivial to handle 02:08:10 it just happens to be used in c++ code, but I don't know enough to say if its something c++ special. I've been lead to believe that structs are structs are structs, so as long as I don't mess with functions belonging to structs, well 02:08:30 I suppose the namespace isn't hard, it's just something you tuck to the name when you pass it to cffi-grovel 02:10:26 ASau` [~user@p54AFEB12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:10:31 namespace just means certain mangling done to the symbol 02:10:53 desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 02:10:56 -!- baumy [~baumy@unaffiliated/jbaumy93] has left #lisp 02:11:07 -!- sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:11:11 once you get symbol mangling, you're missing afaik only multiple inheritance and vtable 02:11:16 ... and exceptions 02:11:18 *p_l* shivers 02:11:34 Unfortunately symbol mangling is not very agreed upon. 02:12:08 I think that I'd try to protect myself from C++ by using some kind of serialization, providing you can afford the overhead. 02:12:19 -!- xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 02:12:33 Zhivago: there are two forms you can find today outside of embedded world 02:12:54 the others are of no importance, unless you are supporting ancient compilers and architectures 02:13:26 for normal computers, you essentially have MSVC and IA64 ABI (aka GCC) mangling 02:13:28 I guess that's an improvement on the old days. 02:13:49 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF721.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:14:09 cffi-grovel lets your compiler do the mangling and return slot offsets -- assuming they are constant 02:14:40 They pretty much have to be to support separate compilation. 02:14:46 Zhivago: GCC's mangling was easiest thing to get started in my experience. VTables can be a bit problematic due to possible redirection slots, but it's usually a smple vector 02:15:11 I haven't investigated multiple inheritance, but for single inheritance, data and vtable slots are fixed 02:15:30 and you can get GCC to dump you vtable from header file 02:15:48 (data slots for single inheritance act like a simple struct, because that's what a class is in IA-64 ABI) 02:16:38 hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:17:06 breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:08 DoctorDude [~Jake@unaffiliated/doctordude] has joined #lisp 02:17:35 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 02:17:47 -!- JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:17:48 -!- hugoduncan [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17:57 the real fun starts with vtables that contain "extended" entries (instead of only "simple" ones) and with exceptions. Possibly multiple inheritance, too 02:20:15 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:20:28 ... and that's enough of at trip down *that* memory lane. 02:20:40 p_1 Zhivago Fare thanks for the chat 02:20:58 Goodnight ladies and gentlemen, I'm ... jangle fix your font, it makes you mistake l for 1 02:21:07 ;) 02:21:15 I tried that once, apparently I didn't fix it 02:21:19 Guest17906 [~sy@host-94-20-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:28 -!- MoRoSKiT [~jean@115.7.139.88.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:21:34 anyway, goodnight. Going to sleep off my anger at UPS playing with time travel instead of delivering my laptop 02:21:46 jean_ [~jean@84.5.156.153] has joined #lisp 02:22:00 -!- hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:23:46 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:23:47 -!- cmm [~cmm@109.66.106.171] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:20 cmm [~cmm@109.66.106.171] has joined #lisp 02:25:34 -!- jean_ [~jean@84.5.156.153] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:26:34 -!- dmiles [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:27:32 -!- bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: bgs100] 02:30:21 hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:31:05 -!- antonv [5d7d2a42@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.125.42.66] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 02:40:18 -!- hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:42:52 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:45:38 -!- desophos [~desophos@n163h87.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:48:17 hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:48:40 dshep [~dshep@shepsoft.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:18 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 02:53:56 rotwatsb [~stephen@ool-18baf2e9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:25 -!- hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:56:41 edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:57:13 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:57:51 hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 03:00:07 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@c-24-147-92-50.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:04:06 -!- rotwatsb [~stephen@ool-18baf2e9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 03:04:39 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@117.83.13.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:05:41 rotwatsb [~stephen@ool-18baf2e9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:40 -!- resttime [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:08:40 -!- seg [~seg@50.23.113.201] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:09:55 -!- rotwatsb [~stephen@ool-18baf2e9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:21 -!- hugodunc` [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:12:27 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:13:52 -!- JulianGindi [~textual@c-69-251-73-33.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 03:16:15 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 03:17:53 -!- breakds [~breakds@c-24-0-146-43.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:18:23 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@171.217.20.65] has left #lisp 03:23:39 -!- dshep [~dshep@shepsoft.net] has left #lisp 03:23:58 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:59 xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:05 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.146.177] has joined #lisp 03:35:56 Could you theoretically, write the full Haskell language in Common lisp? Macros for everytihng, syntax, monads and all else? 03:37:03 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:28 resttime [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has joined #lisp 03:41:01 echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has joined #lisp 03:41:45 depends on what you mean by "in common lisp" i guess 03:41:55 The standard language. 03:42:00 What else? 03:42:29 i mean, you can write a haskell implementation in C. 03:42:40 You can? 03:42:55 yes? 03:43:01 Oh, that would just be a parser, would it not. 03:43:15 resttime_ [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has joined #lisp 03:43:15 you have a funny idea of languages if you think an implementation is just a parser 03:43:32 I am just inexperienced, sorry. 03:43:51 I just read that CL is *so* extensible and all, so I was wondering. 03:44:25 -!- xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 03:44:39 you might be interested in the prolog integration in that one commercial lisp 03:45:07 desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 03:45:20 -!- resttime_ [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:20 -!- resttime [~rest@mobile-128-174-93-18.near.illinois.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:45:25 I read about that somewhere. What was it again? 03:47:05 -!- axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:47:18 Found it, Allegro Prolog. 03:48:42 -!- adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.146.177] has left #lisp 03:48:49 adityarajbhatt [~adityaraj@122.161.146.177] has joined #lisp 03:49:11 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 03:49:41 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 03:51:40 -!- bananagram [~bot@c-76-30-158-226.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:52:37 pop-2 demonstrated that long ago 03:52:46 poplog 03:59:45 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:48 -!- scroy [~user@unaffiliated/scroy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:05:00 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 04:05:06 -!- doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-13-60.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:06:08 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has 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08:13:53 -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:14:23 weie_ [~eie@121.130.234.242] has joined #lisp 08:14:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:15:16 oudeis [~oudeis@2-234-197-218.ip224.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:15:44 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:15:52 determine how many characters have been read from an input stream? 08:16:29 cachem0ney: try to rephrase that question 08:16:33 -!- Shinmera [~linus@public-docking-pat-etx-mapped-0014.ethz.ch] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:04 If I have a stream with N characters. 08:17:08 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:17:16 And I do (read-char stream) (read-char stream) 08:17:26 Is there any function with will report '2'? 08:17:30 no 08:18:13 karupa64 [~karupaner@www13355ui.sakura.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:18:13 cibs [~cibs@60-251-40-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 08:18:37 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan245226.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19:59 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 08:20:44 dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has joined #lisp 08:22:38 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:14 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 cachem0ney: a non-standard custom stream might allow that, but you could also wrap read-char into your own accounting function, or override the read-char symbol in your package 08:28:30 Probably going to do something like the latter. 08:30:25 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:31:49 -!- nostoi [~nostoi@13.Red-81-36-252.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 08:31:52 -!- seangrove [~user@c-69-181-197-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:34:16 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 08:35:16 -!- jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38:06 jack_rabbit [~jack_rabb@c-98-253-60-75.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:39 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:45:00 -!- nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: bye] 08:45:11 ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-251-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:46 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D450.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:49:22 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 08:54:53 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:55:53 is there a canonical way to load a package into a program that was installed by quicklisp? (Or does one need to (load "~/quicklisp/...") on a per-installed-package basis)? 08:57:54 <|3b|> don't you just load things with quicklisp? 08:57:57 apfel_ [~apfel@p5499AAEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:14 <|3b|> and in CL terms you load "systems" (or files) not "packages" 08:58:35 |3b|: perhaps... I don't know. 08:58:44 <|3b|> a "package" in CL is just a namespace, not a group of files 08:59:17 Let me give an example. I'm writing a program using cl-json. What do my "load" lines at the begining of my code look like (in the standalone program)? 08:59:36 *|3b|* doesn't have any "load lines" 09:00:13 <|3b|> usually you write a .asd file which specifies what your program depends on (like cl-json) and use asdf or quicklisp to load your code 09:00:50 <|3b|> quicklisp uses asdf internally to actually load things, it just adds a handler to download missing dependencies it knows about 09:01:47 -!- apfel [~apfel@p5499AF7D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:02:36 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 09:02:36 Hmm. Consider this a newbie question. How do I use a package I installed with quicklisp? 09:03:14 either load it explicitly, or make your .asd depend on it 09:04:18 stassats: ok, how do I load it explicitly [yes, I'm aware that sounds daft] ;-) 09:04:29 the same way you installed it 09:04:41 <|3b|> quicklisp installs things as a side effect of loading them 09:07:05 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07:40 <|3b|> and you really should try to avoid thinking of the things quicklisp installs as "packages", since "package" means something completely different in CL, and mixing up the 2 will probably cause you confusion later 09:08:05 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:04 humour me with an example? I'm writing something that won't be deployed so it just has to run on this one system. I just want to fire up 'sbcl --load MYPROG' and have MYPROG be able to use (for example) cl-json. 09:09:11 weie__ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:17 -!- weie_ [~eie@121.130.234.242] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:09:33 |3b|: noted regarding nomenclature. 09:10:15 <|3b|> if you are just doing a simple single-file script, loading it directly in the file is more reasonable 09:10:37 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:47 *|3b|* usually just works in a REPL rather than in a shell though when using lisp code 09:12:17 |3b|: ok. so returning to the original question... does that mean (load "~/quicklisp/.../whatever") or does quicklisp have a better way? 09:12:27 -!- weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:12:59 -!- theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.168.90.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:13:02 |3b|: yes the REPL is cool, but not for a batch job called externally! 09:13:08 (ql:quickload :cl-json) 09:14:22 stassats: thank you. That was the obvious alternative but I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something completely foolish. 09:14:59 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 09:15:07 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:17:57 shifty: if you're writing a script, you may have to load ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp (or perhaps /usr/local/share/quicklisp/setup.lisp), and then go one with (ql:quickload :dependencies). But otherwise, you would write a asd file and quickload it in the REPL. Now if you want to generate a binary, you'll save an executable image, but again from the REPL after having quickloaded your program asd file. 09:18:16 shifty: finally, you can write a script to do that, loading quicklisp, loading your program asd, and saving the executable image. 09:18:45 There are other ways still to deploy lisp programs ;-) 09:18:49 0s 09:19:06 -!- p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:19:11 DataLinkDroid [~DataLinkD@101.161.69.54] has joined #lisp 09:19:52 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-iunbxpbabrjvskem] has joined #lisp 09:20:20 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-iunbxpbabrjvskem] has quit [Changing host] 09:20:21 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:23:02 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Client Quit] 09:23:17 p_l [~pl@tsugumi.brage.info] has joined #lisp 09:25:33 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fpghvgonfjwlzipf] has joined #lisp 09:25:52 -!- apfel_ [~apfel@p5499AAEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:25:53 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-fpghvgonfjwlzipf] has quit [Changing host] 09:25:53 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:26:16 ogamita: thanks. my .sbclrc handles loading quicklisp, which leads to another question (coming...). I know that I /could/ create an executable but on balance it's better for me to just use the source (since it's my machine) - if it breaks I can fix it without having to go looking for the source. 09:26:33 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:26:41 ogamita: as for the other ways... baby steps for me first! 09:28:35 that other question: is it "bad" to load something twice? In my case, is there any harm in letting SBCL load quicklisp in the .sbclrc and then having my code do it explicitly? (And by "bad" I mean; as always; "is there a preferred method?") 09:28:38 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:29:31 <|3b|> if you are worried about it, you could check before loading it in the file 09:31:11 <|3b|> shouldn't cause any problems though, aside from maybe being a bit slower 09:31:16 also lisp has features such as the difference between defparameter and defvar to allow explicit reloading 09:31:43 and eval-when 09:31:43 harish [~harish@175.156.240.60] has joined #lisp 09:32:00 |3b|: not worried. unless I should be, of course! That's the beauty of being new at something, one never knows the gotchas until later, in which case it becomes so obvious to us we can't fathom how we once didn't know! 09:32:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:32:05 shifty: add #-quicklisp before loading it 09:32:36 s/in which case/at which point/ 09:33:43 I think my question has been answered sufficiently for the moment. Let me make a few mistakes and keep rolling on. Thanks all. 09:33:45 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:34:49 <|3b|> code can have arbitrary side effects when loaded, so can't say loading things twice is safe in general, but unless it has a really good reason i'd say libraries where that is a problem are poorly written 09:36:14 indeed, incremental development with repl and/or slime actually encourages one pretty fast to wrote code which can be safely reloaded 09:36:16 <|3b|> similarly for utility applications like asdf and quicklisp 09:36:24 s/wrote/write/ 09:37:09 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 09:37:27 <|3b|> (end applications are more likely to have problems with multiple loads, for example if they open a window when loaded, or open a server socket or whatever) 09:38:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rrmkoqdyfrqgckdi] has joined #lisp 09:38:55 -!- ramkrsna [ramkrsna@nat/redhat/x-rrmkoqdyfrqgckdi] has quit [Changing host] 09:38:55 ramkrsna [ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:39:28 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 09:41:48 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:42:02 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 09:45:53 -!- axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:45:54 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:46:24 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:49:26 -!- gzg [~user@24-217-211-79.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:52:11 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.46] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:52:59 -!- ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56:59 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 09:57:13 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 09:58:03 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] 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[~localhost@p5DD9D450.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:48 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:09:24 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 10:09:31 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:09:33 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 10:10:21 -!- echo-area [~user@182.92.247.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:10:35 foreignFunction [~niksaak@ip-4761.sunline.net.ua] has joined #lisp 10:10:50 -!- badboy4471 [~tiger@115.238.32.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:11:55 -!- nilsi__ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:11:56 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 10:12:55 nilsi__ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 10:13:08 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:13:17 Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined #lisp 10:15:23 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 10:16:20 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@202.39.219.19] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 10:16:23 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 10:16:46 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:16:49 man, I am so glad you guys pointed me at SBCL and slimv 10:16:53 so very very cool 10:17:40 indeed 10:17:48 but you should really try Slime 10:18:54 I probably should 10:20:32 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:21:35 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2-234-197-218.ip224.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:25:37 -!- ggole [~ggole@106-69-46-145.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:28:05 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:32:22 pillton [~user@124-148-56-126.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:32:43 Is there a log of this channel? 10:33:16 <|3b|> minion: tell pillton about logs 10:33:16 pillton: please see logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 10:33:47 *pillton* thanks |3b| 10:33:57 -!- jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:34:24 minion: thanks 10:34:24 you're welcome 10:34:41 haha brilliant. 10:34:49 -!- nilsi__ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:35:12 *|3b|* wonders if ircbrowse.net/browse/lisp should be added to that list 10:35:38 nilsi_ [~nilsi@5.254.153.26] has joined #lisp 10:37:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 10:38:12 ggole [~ggole@58-7-56-182.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:39:40 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 10:39:42 ogamita [~t@LNantes-156-76-35-103.w82-127.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined 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[~lyanchih@118-163-141-228.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:02:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:03:30 -!- nilsi__ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:07:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:08:01 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:09:39 xotedend [~quassel@50-77-75-69-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 12:12:09 -!- motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:12:43 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:13:15 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:14:54 ZabaQ [~user@86.63.2.14] has joined #lisp 12:16:33 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:19:12 -!- xan_ [~xan@80.174.78.196.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:19:57 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 12:20:16 drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:10 There seem to be quite a lot of algorithms for converting from infix to prefix.. 12:22:52 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:24:03 I was looking at a project yesterday that was effectively a syntax layer on top of S-expressions to make them prettier and support infixing for certain operations 12:24:06 I didn't like it 12:24:09 :P 12:24:12 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 12:24:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@pool-173-59-25-58.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:25:01 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:25:08 ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:13 implementing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunting-yard_algorithm is a fun exercise if you're just learning about stacks 12:27:47 oh nice 12:27:54 might have to give that a go 12:28:35 /join #overtone 12:28:51 Hang on, there's an exposition on this very topic in PAIP.. 12:28:57 Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:29:45 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@pool-71-116-67-9.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:30:40 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-7-66.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 12:33:43 urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-114-56.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:54 -!- ZabaQ [~user@86.63.2.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:39:46 ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.46] has joined #lisp 12:41:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42:58 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 12:43:24 chris_l [~quassel@p57A5CD0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:23 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 12:48:06 ZabaQ [~user@86.63.2.14] has joined #lisp 12:56:09 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.22.129] has joined #lisp 12:56:47 how do I best copy from an sbcl alien array into a proper lisp array? 12:56:47 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.22.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:57:24 -!- ehu [~ehu@62.140.137.46] has quit [] 12:57:51 chris_l: it of course depends on the types of the objects and your priorities. Most people would use a loop.... :) 12:57:53 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.22.129] has joined #lisp 12:58:47 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.22.129] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:59:20 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.22.129] has joined #lisp 13:03:30 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 13:03:40 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03:51 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@109.120.22.129] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:05:39 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:15 -!- motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:07:17 -!- Harag [~Thunderbi@105-236-237-55.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 13:07:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:09:59 oudeis [~oudeis@213.209.196.2] has joined #lisp 13:10:20 dcguru 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13:30:39 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 13:30:47 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:31:20 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 13:31:20 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31:45 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 13:32:34 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 13:32:41 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:33:37 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 13:35:54 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:35:54 -!- cmm- [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:36:35 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:21 -!- motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:37:22 -!- Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 13:41:16 kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has joined #lisp 13:45:36 -!- dcguru [~chatzilla@66.129.60.130] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130902133717]] 13:45:50 JuanDaugherty [~juand@cpe-76-180-168-166.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:47:52 jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-25.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:49:46 hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 13:51:21 dmiles_afk [~dmiles@c-98-246-180-47.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:21 w0rm_x [~dd@client-82-26-135-223.pete-bam-1.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:15 Mon_Ouie [~Mon_Ouie@subtle/user/MonOuie] has joined #lisp 13:53:18 ryankarason: it is usual to model molecules as weighted graphs. 13:53:26 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@pool-173-67-27-249.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jangle] 13:53:38 ryankarason: thus you can just use whatever graph representation you like. 13:54:50 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-185-126.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:00 -!- nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:55:03 ryankarason: the exact representation depends on what you want to do with said molecule. 13:58:40 k0001 [~k0001@host132.186-125-112.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:58:57 -!- DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:59:09 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:59:51 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 14:00:09 Munksgaard [~philip@wireless-eduroam.science.ku.dk] has joined #lisp 14:00:58 sohail [~sohail@69-196-176-62.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:58 -!- sohail [~sohail@69-196-176-62.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Changing host] 14:00:58 sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:01:05 aftershave [~textual@h-136-25.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 14:01:23 DrCode [~DrCode@gateway/tor-sasl/drcode] has joined #lisp 14:01:29 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:01:52 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 14:02:01 -!- motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:03:25 -!- hitecnologys_ [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys_] 14:05:13 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #lisp 14:07:25 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 14:08:45 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:11:27 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #lisp 14:12:24 -!- Munksgaard [~philip@wireless-eduroam.science.ku.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:13:11 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-7-66.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:37 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-54-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:13:42 hello chaps/chapettes, what's the idiomatic way of doing a substring match in lisp? 14:13:47 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-54-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14:03 (i.e. I want to match the word foo in "A string containing foo maybe") 14:14:13 find? 14:14:16 and return a bool 14:14:31 nice, thanks :) 14:14:35 a bool? 14:14:41 clhs search 14:14:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_search.htm 14:14:59 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-54-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:15:10 oholiab: (rszeno's answer is incorrect) 14:15:17 as usual 14:15:45 was a question not an answer 14:15:50 stassats: thanks 14:16:17 rszeno: as in a true or false or nearest equivalent (like search's returning nil when it can't be found) 14:17:10 hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-115-196.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 14:17:12 lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:24 badboy4471 [~tiger@183.128.113.171] has joined #lisp 14:18:02 is there a way to get a time more finegrained than milliseconds in sbcl? 14:18:02 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:18:52 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 14:18:52 sb-ext:get-time-of-day 14:19:13 wait, that's microseconds 14:19:21 wait, you said milli, that's ok 14:19:31 yeah that's good, thanks 14:19:36 *stassats* was expecting nanoseconds 14:20:37 local-time returns nanoseconds. I don't know how fine-grained the actual returns are, though. 14:21:11 also, is ending a function that returns a true or false like "is-string?" with a question mark idiomatic or is it still the old school "is-string-p" 14:21:15 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@213.209.196.2] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 14:21:21 ZabaQ [~john.conn@86.63.2.14] has joined #lisp 14:21:33 nymo [~user@h66-173-127-171.mntimn.dedicated.static.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:43 the latter 14:21:53 old school :D 14:21:59 thanks 14:22:16 i would wager that appending question marks is more old 14:22:45 wikipedia says 8th century 14:23:30 alright smartass :P 14:24:40 related question: how do I sleep a process for a certain number of milliseconds? 14:24:42 -!- sirdancealot [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:24:48 foom [~jknight@2620:15c:6:14:be30:5bff:fedf:6db6] has joined #lisp 14:25:17 -!- drmeiste_ [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:25:20 clhs sleep 14:25:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm 14:25:47 you can't rely on it sleeping the actual number of milliseconds 14:26:21 as I read the spec it only takes seconds!? 14:26:26 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 14:27:00 milliseconds are seconds too 14:27:18 only a thousand times smaller 14:27:39 aah, thanks 14:27:56 0.001 second would be one millisecond 14:28:52 i thought of integers for some reason 14:29:43 1/1000 will also do 14:32:04 oholiab: the idiomatic name for such a predicate would be stringp (but there's already one named stringp, which tells you if an object is a string!) 14:32:42 ogamita: so without the hyphen then? 14:32:42 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:02 mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:33:14 The rule is that you use the suffix p for single word predicate names, and -p for multiword predicate names. But then, you have multi-word symbol names that end with a uniword predicate name such as string-lessp = the lessp of strings., not whether the object is a string-less (which is meaningless). 14:33:46 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 14:33:47 Now you could (defun string-less-p (seq) (not-any (function stringp) seq)) 14:34:07 (string-less-p '(1 2 3)) -> T (string-lessp "abc" "def") -> T 14:34:07 ogamita: awesome, that's really useful 14:34:09 cheers dude 14:35:26 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #lisp 14:35:51 That said, there are exceptions (historical) such as atom and null, and there are imported conventions, such as something-from-scheme? When writing OO programs, we can also see is-something, by influence from alien OO frameworks. But the p/-p convention is the most lispy. 14:36:08 the lispiest :-) 14:36:43 JulianGindi [~textual@50-198-150-254-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:46 I'd say that it is the most fortranish rather. 14:38:17 "?" is lispier since it is rectified from influence of more archaic languages. 14:38:39 -!- foom [~jknight@2620:15c:6:14:be30:5bff:fedf:6db6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:39:31 There wasn't a fortran predicate, since there was no fortran ternary if, and that was the reason for the creation of LISP. (otherwise, McCarthy would probably have been happy continuing with FLPL). 14:39:35 i use -p for libraries and ? for personal code/end-user stuff 14:39:38 i am a terrible person 14:39:46 http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/ 14:40:07 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:40:17 Fortran wasn't the single programming language back then. 14:40:30 who cares what fortran has 14:40:31 had 14:40:38 or hadn't 14:40:54 Yes it was (not counting the assemblers) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_programming_languages#The_1950s_and_1960s 14:40:57 -!- badboy4471 [~tiger@183.128.113.171] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:41:21 Everything on wikipedia is true. :D 14:41:34 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:42 ok, name one non-assembler language that existed before Summer 1958? 14:42:41 There existed at least several "-o-matic" languages that lead to COBOL, 14:42:46 plus Fortran, 14:42:54 jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 14:42:55 plus Algol predecessor. 14:43:55 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_programming_languages#The_1950s_and_1960s 14:44:09 You're making the same mistake. 14:44:24 You take one review page as the final truth. 14:44:37 i know a language, it's was called WHOGIVESADAMN 14:44:49 also, DGASAU is the only one capable of telling the truth 14:45:06 "Algol 58" was the first "officially published" version of Algol, 14:45:19 but the language itself was designed a bit earlier. 14:45:50 DGASAU: OT alert 14:46:21 Following that route one can construct argument that lisp didn't exist before 1984 or whatever the year was. 14:46:41 Anyway, 14:47:25 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@wlan245202.rz.uni-leipzig.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:47:30 Well, we can be grateful McCarthy didn't get any influence from FLOWMATIC (B-0) :-) 14:47:31 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48:20 -!- chris_l [~quassel@p57A5CD0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:48:40 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 14:49:09 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:49:31 -!- TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-247-212.tcso.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:51:51 motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 14:51:51 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:52:05 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:31 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:59:21 -!- motiondude [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:59:21 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:59:29 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:17 -!- hilbert [~Hilbert@adsl-89-217-115-196.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ["Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com"]] 15:01:53 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 15:02:29 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:12 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 15:05:10 doomlord_ [~servitor@host86-184-13-60.range86-184.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:32 I kind of expect that prefixes would have been more lispy -- ?string and so on. :) 15:05:55 It's odd that those became suffixal in scheme. 15:05:57 -!- hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:06:18 ¿string, rather 15:07:08 Well, lisp hasn't really caught up with unicode yet. :) 15:07:41 (¿cuerda? "foo") 15:08:06 Well, there was one implementation that was written in German, but that didn't please the hordes of free software maintainers, they translated identifiers and comments into English 15:08:50 but our PSI tree is such a nightmare. 15:08:55 err, wrong channel. 15:09:39 -!- xificurC [xificurC@nat/ibm/x-vwmbutdsngthutyz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:11:16 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-251-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:17 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:13:26 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:14:02 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 15:14:35 Bike: no, but as we can generate the code itself, it shouldn't be too hard to write that to a file. it could check for the existance of the file and load that instead, which would effectively cause that. no? 15:14:45 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:15:16 Bike: re the self-closing of a tag: i'm not sure about it, but isn't that derived from the DTD at the moment? 15:15:59 Bike: if not, you could do something like (<:span :class "foo" "") which would yield 15:17:32 zickzackv [~faot@port-92-198-30-130.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:42 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@melontech.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:23:32 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.65.29] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:23:54 nilsi_ [~nilsi@180.108.184.127] has joined #lisp 15:26:12 -!- dtw [~dtw@pdpc/supporter/active/dtw] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:26:37 BitPuffin [~BitPuffin@s193-13-104-217.cust.tele2.se] has joined #lisp 15:29:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.73.106] has joined #lisp 15:29:07 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@95.56.73.106] has quit [Changing host] 15:29:07 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #lisp 15:34:41 Wasn't there a lisp library by Xach for writing PNGs? I forget it's name... 15:35:27 vecto? 15:36:11 ..ah. zpng .. vecto depends on it. Got it, thanks :-) 15:36:30 oh, right. 15:36:54 jangle__ [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has joined #lisp 15:37:19 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:37:31 -!- jangle [~jimmy1984@50.241.129.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:37:31 -!- jangle__ is now known as jangle 15:37:37 -!- cpape` [~user@cpape.eu] has left #lisp 15:37:48 cpape` [~user@cpape.eu] has joined #lisp 15:38:17 nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-167.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:24 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 15:42:08 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:08 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:42:43 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:43:25 -!- Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:44:03 hugod [~user@bas1-montreal08-1279563839.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:44:11 jasom [~aidenn@ip70-191-80-19.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:06 -!- axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:47:15 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:49:23 hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has joined #lisp 15:52:25 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:52:25 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:52:45 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 15:53:04 hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has joined #lisp 15:54:00 Fullma [~fullma@ram94-2-82-66-69-246.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:28 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:00:37 TDog [~chatzilla@67-1-247-212.tcso.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:42 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:12 -!- lyanchih [~lyanchih@114-34-99-241.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: lyanchih] 16:03:23 -!- hitecnologys [~hitecnolo@178.74.119.215] has quit [Quit: hitecnologys] 16:03:43 -!- hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has left #lisp 16:04:09 -!- varjagg [~eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:04:18 madnificent: yeah, i mean, i'm getting and it would be a bit smaller if it was 16:04:37 hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has joined #lisp 16:06:07 Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D450.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:08:54 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@saule.gemelen.net] has quit [Quit:    .    ...] 16:09:08 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:09:37 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:11:13 gemelen [~gemelen@saule.gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:12 chris_l [~quassel@p57A5CD0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:39 Davidbrcz [~david@88.115.137.88.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:47 Munksgaard [~philip@80-71-132-106.u.parknet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:12:51 -!- gemelen [~gemelen@saule.gemelen.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:16:21 gemelen [~gemelen@saule.gemelen.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:11 -!- kushal [kdas@fedora/kushal] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:15 -!- mvilleneuve [~mvilleneu@LLagny-156-36-4-214.w80-14.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:21:57 -!- leo2007 [~leo@61.149.217.126] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 16:22:35 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:22:51 -!- arenz [arenz@nat/ibm/x-jspcdxpxbxbxgepx] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:23:08 -!- nymo [~user@h66-173-127-171.mntimn.dedicated.static.tds.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 16:23:09 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:23:48 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:11 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 16:24:12 -!- Karl_dscc [~localhost@p5DD9D450.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:15 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 16:25:00 pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 -!- antgreen [~green@dsl-173-206-165-73.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:26:48 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 16:26:53 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-226-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #lisp 16:27:09 keen__ [~blackened@pdf879821.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:28:21 -!- keen_ [~blackened@pdf879b76.wmaxuq00.ap.so-net.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:29:57 Joreji [~thomas@vpn-ho1.unidsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:28 -!- hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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EG, clickcheck (but that ones not there) 17:25:38 ejbs [~user@5.254.139.90] has joined #lisp 17:25:39 fiveam has some stuff 17:25:52 Is there a library for parsing PDF files? CL-PDF only seems to be about rendering them 17:25:53 if you need, I can add more such features 17:27:15 -!- Guest24545 [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:28:49 fe[nl]ix: I use fiveam, but I always find the docs at http://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/docs/ impenetrable. Is that current? And can you point me to relevant bits? 17:29:05 ZabaQ [~john.conn@86.63.2.14] has joined #lisp 17:29:17 Also, Im currently using (loop repeat 100 do (assert )), so whatever fiveam has will definitely be an improvement ;) 17:29:52 http://common-lisp.net/project/fiveam/docs/Checks.html#Random_0020_0028QuickCheck-ish_0029_0020testing 17:31:23 sellout-: how about https://github.com/mcandre/cl-quickcheck for random test case generation 17:31:23 ejbs: for parsing, I use pdftk (a command line tool) to convert the PDF to something I can parse 17:31:24 boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has joined #lisp 17:31:41 ejbs: I'm not aware of any decent PDF parser for lisp; if you find one, let me kno1 17:32:06 eudoxia: Oh, I swear I searched the library list for check, but I missed that. Thanks. 17:32:26 jasom: cl-pdf includes a parser apparently. Gonna try to use that one for some basic stuff, I'll tell you how it all went 17:32:35 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:32:37 Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 rannger [~user@221.4.142.39] has joined #lisp 17:33:01 -!- rannger [~user@221.4.142.39] has left #lisp 17:35:32 -!- kqrx`` is now known as kqrx 17:35:36 -!- boian [~boian@5.53.168.6] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:35:58 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 17:39:03 eudoxia, are you interested in helping with .so packaging? 17:39:39 Fare: i don't really know a thing about asdf internals but i guess it can't be /too/ hard 17:40:17 of course, this is only making the task of XCVB harder every time ASDF is improved 17:40:23 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.35] has joined #lisp 17:40:52 maybe I should "just" fix the ASDF API to make it possible to do the things that XCVB does... 17:41:08 why not subsume XCVB into ASDF 17:41:17 easier said than done 17:41:19 as a release mechanism so to speak 17:41:35 but maybe still easier than maintaining XCVB 17:41:43 many pieces of XCVB have gone into ASDF already 17:41:49 ASDF would have to change its api a bit to get deterministic parallel builds that XCVB has, right? 17:42:20 the source-registry, large pieces of xcvb-driver, correct timestamp propagation (though no xcvb code was reused there, only ideas), etc. 17:42:31 "Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when defining PACKAGE aaa a function while in package MINE" .. I thought packages namespaces symbols so this wouldn't happen? 17:42:34 jasom: yes, and that would NOT be backward compatible 17:42:37 LiamH [~healy@pdp8.nrl.navy.mil] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 NihilistDandy [~ND@132.198.157.154] has joined #lisp 17:42:59 yet possibly still easier to transition than having a second build system. Or not. 17:43:08 -!- desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:43:50 nightshade: you're trying to define a symbol in package CL? 17:44:32 Nope 17:44:36 In MINE 17:44:44 *|3b|* read it as trying to define a function named by a symbol from CL 17:44:50 Defining a function package inside package MINE 17:44:57 theBlackDragon [~dragon@213.219.168.90.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:11 <|3b|> (probably accidentally, due to not realizing it was imported by :use :cl) 17:45:27 Ahh 17:45:28 Yep 17:45:34 i think you defined aaa in CL-USER and now you tried to define AAA in MINE which :USES :CL 17:45:41 Thanks |3b| 17:46:13 *|3b|* assumed "aaa" was a typo, and the symbol in question was CL:PACKAGE 17:46:17 |3b|: Yep that is, thanks :) 17:46:31 Juanito-Jons [~jreynoso@201.165.169.21] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 On a completely different topic, someone on HN a few days ago linked to a massive usenet post on google-groups that started with "Why don't you consider scheme a lisp" contained lots of really long posts by KMP and lots of posts of Erik Naggum calling people dickweeds. Also burried in there was a good discussion on why scheme needs hygenic macros and why CL rarely runs into problems without them 17:48:40 -!- oudeis [~oudeis@2.55.122.154] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 17:49:34 I never really used scheme, so I hadn't really considered that without a package system following the rule "Don't bind other peoples symbols" becomes non-trivial 17:50:25 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@132.198.157.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:51:48 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:52:40 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-54-62.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:53:03 jasom: The parser seems to work, but there're no docs and no examples. 17:54:16 ejbs: no docs and no examples is the standard way to release a lisp library, isn't it? 17:54:59 or really anything done for free by someone 17:55:21 benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:28 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:55:31 jasom: Bleh. It's usually better than this nowadays 17:56:31 NihilistDandy [~ND@132.198.157.154] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:57:26 -!- trebor_dki [~user@153.96.244.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:00:02 well I think my github account contains exactly 0 projects with any semblance of documentation, so I'm part of the problem. 18:00:50 speaking of which; can anyone recommend a specific tool for generating documentation from docstrings? There seem to be a lot of them... 18:01:32 jasom: docstrings and a README go a long way 18:03:13 There are examples on how to manipulate the pdf... but not how to read it. 18:03:23 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:04:17 ehu [ehu@ip167-22-212-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #lisp 18:05:24 -!- NihilistDandy [~ND@132.198.157.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:05:56 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:06 nug700 [~nug700@209-181-102-38.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:39 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 18:07:11 -!- ck`` [~ck@dslb-094-219-251-096.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:07:50 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09:01 segv- [~mb@95-91-243-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:09:02 antgreen [~green@out-on-194.wireless.telus.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 hydan [~yaaic@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lisp 18:10:51 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 18:14:56 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:17:31 motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has joined #lisp 18:18:28 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:20:12 -!- weie__ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 18:20:37 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 18:20:38 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:21:07 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 18:21:22 -!- hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 18:22:33 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #lisp 18:22:34 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 18:23:20 -!- knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:24 hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 -!- benny [~user@maidenhead3.tunnelr.com] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 18:32:14 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:32:34 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.35] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 -!- hydan [~yaaic@ip-89-103-110-5.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 18:35:42 normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:36:16 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:37:02 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:38:23 -!- zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has quit [Quit: Bye!] 18:38:28 -!- w0rm_x [~dd@client-82-26-135-223.pete-bam-1.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38:52 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:40:09 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:40:16 -!- axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 18:40:54 -!- lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:42:26 kpreid_ [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:35 ejbs: I can't even find the function for reading it; what's it called? 18:43:03 -!- s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:43:24 s0ber [~s0ber@1-164-208-242.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:15 -!- antgreen [~green@out-on-194.wireless.telus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:45:15 nm, it's in its own system 18:45:20 -!- kpreid [~kpreid@50-196-148-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:45:20 -!- kpreid_ is now known as kpreid 18:47:37 lovely it's in its own system, but in the pdf package 18:49:07 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 18:49:28 kliph [~user@unaffiliated/kliph] has joined #lisp 18:49:42 Can I modify a compiled common lisp program while it is running? 18:49:58 BitPuffin: yes 18:50:13 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has joined #lisp 18:50:27 jasom: So for my 3D game, I'll be able to modify the engine and logic scripts and see the changes without restarting? 18:50:34 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 18:50:35 -!- copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:50:41 sure 18:50:43 yes 18:50:48 that's just insane :) 18:50:52 you need to be slightly careful with inlining 18:51:04 copec [copec@schrodbox.unaen.org] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 jasom: oh yeah? how so 18:51:29 if a function is inlined somewhere redefining that function won't change the source where it's inlined. 18:51:37 if you recompile a single function, and it's inlined in some places then the old version will still be inlined 18:51:43 ah 18:51:45 gotcha 18:51:52 so in that case you'd have to reboot? 18:52:15 BitPuffin: no, just recompile all functions that also use that function. Typically I recompile the entire source-file which is often good enough 18:52:42 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:50 jasom: I see, is there a simple way to do that? Like is lisp aware of which functions inline a particular function so that I can tell it to recompile those? 18:53:13 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:54:14 no. 18:54:34 BitPuffin: just declare any functions you don't want inlined as notinline 18:54:38 i don't think this is too much of a problem in practice, though. an inlined function is probably going to be small and simple. 18:54:57 not a scripted behavior you're redefining or whatever. 18:55:07 Bike: Yeah I agree 18:55:43 lduros [~user@fsf/member/lduros] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 -!- nialo- [~yaaic@66-87-117-167.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:27 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:59:49 eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-0-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 19:00:51 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:01:25 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:01:29 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:02:04 noncopy [~user@88.250.247.155] has joined #lisp 19:03:15 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:03:18 -!- kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-hhvbstjbmfokboas] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:06:32 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 montabeau [~abeaumont@77.231.228.45] has joined #lisp 19:07:33 knob [~knob@76.76.202.245] has joined #lisp 19:07:55 -!- montabeau is now known as abeaumont 19:08:38 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ryrofasxtcclqedb] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:08:43 ejbs: not going to work for my purposes; I threw a modrerately sized PDF at it and it is slowly consuming all the memory in my system. 19:09:01 m7w [~chatzilla@178.172.204.100] has joined #lisp 19:10:23 bgs100 [~nitrogen@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #lisp 19:10:30 hello everyone, i am writing a shader system and i'd like it to be so flexible that shaders could be able to access everything, so in my lisp-like shader language i have something like (const some-package.some-structure.some-var name), this way it is not verbose yet quite limited, if i try (const accessor-function name) and evaluate accessor-function, then it becomes too verbose. any ideas? *cheers 19:11:00 err lisp-like shader file* not language 19:11:34 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:11:37 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:11:44 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:11:55 Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has joined #lisp 19:13:22 hi 19:13:34 nha [~prefect@koln-4d0dc49f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:34 hey 19:14:34 -!- ZabaQ [~john.conn@86.63.2.14] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:14:41 axion [~axion@btnund-ai01-74-214-214-174.utma.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 -!- sz0 [~textual@c-67-169-70-88.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 19:15:20 seangrove [~user@2600:1010:b018:7939:3933:5bad:3d52:283a] has joined #lisp 19:16:04 kirin` [telex@gateway/shell/anapnea.net/x-sqaunhhqktbfmqte] has joined #lisp 19:16:40 -!- ggole [~ggole@58-7-56-182.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [] 19:21:23 ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:21:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-130-25.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:22:08 -!- ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:23:02 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:23:20 STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.35] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 -!- hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:24:16 -!- bege_ is now known as bege 19:24:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-0-31.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:26:04 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:26:43 what does setf stand for? 19:26:46 what's the f 19:27:07 matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:18 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:27:33 field, i think. 19:28:09 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/869529/difference-between-set-setq-and-setf-in-common-lisp 19:28:42 josemanuel [~josemanue@101.Red-79-145-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:02 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:31:24 form? 19:31:39 foeniks [~fevon@p57A5D2E2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:31:46 BitPuffin: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm 19:32:06 BitPuffin: There's the important concept of a place and something being setfable. 19:32:17 It's somewhat specific to Common Lisp, I'd say. 19:32:17 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:32:44 hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has joined #lisp 19:32:54 Though that doesn't answer your question :) 19:33:45 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:34:41 antoszka: hmm xD 19:36:01 ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:36:53 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 19:37:02 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:24 -!- ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:38:19 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #lisp 19:43:51 -!- josemanuel [~josemanue@101.Red-79-145-246.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 19:44:22 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-226-208.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46:00 stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:46:21 scharan [~scharan@caps04.cs.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:47:05 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.141] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:48:25 scmaccal [~user@ip-64-134-240-171.public.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:36 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 19:48:46 -!- stassats [~stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Client Quit] 19:50:11 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:53:59 ln [~C6248@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 19:54:22 -!- mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has quit [Quit: wifi] 19:55:01 mathrick [~mathrick@85.218.134.11] has joined #lisp 19:55:35 -!- ln [~C6248@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 19:55:37 -!- edgar-rft [~GOD@HSI-KBW-109-193-013-113.hsi7.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: continuation interrupted into permanent confusion] 19:58:28 gabnet [~gabnet@182.23.67.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:20 przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:24 samskull` [~user@S0106001111de1fc8.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:02 -!- Denommus [~user@unaffiliated/denommus] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:05:48 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:07 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:29 -!- namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:06:48 namtsui [~user@c-76-21-124-173.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:46 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p4FE64EC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:11:32 kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has joined #lisp 20:12:11 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:12:47 I'm a bit surprised that the function is called 1- instead of -1 20:13:12 BitPuffin: that's because by default, 1- is read as a symbol, while -1 is read as a number. 20:13:59 To use a symbol named "-1", we would have to write \-1 or -\1 or |-|1 or |-1| or -|1| or ||-1 or -||1 or -1|| or a few other combinations mixing || and \. 20:14:27 pjb: makes sense thanks. but why not call them increment and decrement? 20:14:42 there is incf decf as well 20:14:58 because those name have as connotation the modification of a variable. 20:15:12 ah 20:15:12 Better names would be successor and predecessor (in Pascal, there were functions succ and pred). 20:15:25 desophos [~desophos@n132h78.dhcp.oxy.edu] has joined #lisp 20:15:36 so they are not synonymous 20:15:46 ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has joined #lisp 20:16:11 1+ is a function, incf is a macro that expands to a setf form. 20:17:03 yeah along the lines of what I thought then 20:17:10 incf modifies a variable 20:17:22 No, it modifies a place. 20:17:49 There's some precise terminology around here ;-) 20:17:59 pjb: defined with setparameter? 20:18:18 pjb: yeah that's gonna take a while to get used to :D but then I'm gonna be just like you guys to newbies 20:18:18 clhs place 20:18:19 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for place. 20:18:22 it's the circle of lisp 20:18:47 pjb: but doesn't a variable just point to a place? 20:19:06 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm 20:19:14 No variables don't "point" in lisp. 20:19:22 There's a glossary for those definitions. 20:19:40 A variable IS a place. 20:21:01 pjb: well if variable = place then why was it wrong to say that incf modifies a variable :P 20:21:29 I didn't say =, I said  20:21:39 isn't = is? 20:22:06 can two variables be the same place? 20:22:06 x, x is a variable  x is a place ; this is the meaning of "A x is A y". 20:22:16 No, two variables are different places. 20:22:26 Otherwise they'd be the same variable. 20:22:39 is there some kind of primitive that can be the same place? 20:22:51 (basically are there pointers) 20:23:04 -!- ln [~ln@84.233.246.170] has left #lisp 20:23:06 You can wrap references to places in closures. 20:24:10 hm 20:24:12 okay 20:24:14 well 20:24:27 Back to my CV, and then back to the lisp book :P 20:24:35 See "defmacro &" in http://compgroups.net/comp.lang.lisp/passing-setf-able-place-to-a-function/213491 20:25:34 neoncortex [~neoncorte@unaffiliated/xispirito] has joined #lisp 20:28:48 trebor_home [~email@dslb-088-068-018-048.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:43 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-91-156.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:28 -!- Codynyx_ [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:35:25 -!- bege [~bege@S0106001d7e5132b0.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:35:27 -!- hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 20:35:46 Codynyx [~cody@c-75-72-187-16.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:22 hrs [~textual@64.206.121.41] has joined #lisp 20:37:40 Pooze [~secret@h-176-10-249-226.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 20:38:56 BitPuffin: There's a library called "locatives" which abstracts places to 'pointers' which you can pass around. You can't do pointer arithmetic on them though 20:38:58 AeroNotix [~aero@37.139.18.183] has joined #lisp 20:39:07 any good irc client libraries? 20:39:20 I'm using cl-irc at the moment- but it's blocking by default which is kind of a bummer 20:39:26 -!- alezost [~user@128-70-199-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 20:39:42 I want to set my client to join a channel and then still be able to easily interact with the thing from the repl 20:39:46 -!- seangrove [~user@2600:1010:b018:7939:3933:5bad:3d52:283a] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39:50 AeroNotix: http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=irc 20:39:58 -!- chris_l [~quassel@p57A5CD0B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:40:17 AeroNotix: Hm. Well. Is it using drakma? You could just change to the async version of Drakma then 20:40:27 Wait. Why would it use a HTTP client? Du 20:40:27 ejbs: not sure if it's using drakma 20:40:35 hah, yes 20:42:02 Still, have you tried just launching it in another thread? MAybe that would suffice 20:42:34 Sure I could - but then I can't make any guarantees about thread-safety of the thing then I would have to ensure synchronous calls to all methods I make 20:43:06 -!- noncopy [~user@88.250.247.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:43:14 What are you trying to do anyway? Curious 20:43:17 irc bot 20:43:21 for funsies 20:43:36 bored and I've been writing Erlang for the last month - I want something different/fun 20:44:42 ejbs: aw that's too bad 20:45:21 BitPuffin: What is :)? 20:45:50 You don't need synchronous calls to all methods, only to the methods that can be called from a different thread. 20:45:50 ejbs: lack of ptr arithmetic, but I guess in a way it is also a good thing :P 20:46:21 BitPuffin: Well, it probably wouldn't make a lot of sense anyway heh 20:47:01 -!- angavrilov [~angavrilo@217.71.227.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:48:03 jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-222-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 20:49:27 seangrove [~user@151.sub-70-197-10.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:40 BitPuffin: Why were you talking about games by the way? 20:51:49 BitPuffin: Check out xelf.me 20:52:39 ejbs: because I am making one 20:52:52 BitPuffin: Ooh, in Lisp? 20:52:58 ejbs: apparently :P 20:53:06 ejbs: it's not 2D though! 20:53:09 but thanks! 20:53:31 BitPuffin: Well, you could always check out CLinch @ Github then :) 20:53:35 Plus it's a GPL library so I can't write a game that isn't licensed under the GPL 20:53:48 ejbs: yep someone already showed me that :D 20:53:58 ejbs: but I'll probably write my own 20:54:17 BitPuffin: Oh right. Yeah, he's probably gonna change license tho. 20:54:45 -!- surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has left #lisp 20:54:58 woa! sbcl is public domain? awesome 20:55:10 not completely apparently 20:55:18 surrounder [~surrounde@095-096-032-026.static.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 20:55:37 ejbs: yeah he probably should :) otherwise only small open source games might use it 20:55:43 most likely 20:55:45 well 20:56:05 I guess you could make a commercial game anyway if you wanted to, and have the source available but the assets proprietary, but I digress 20:57:55 Just to get something out of my chest. Lisp is awesome. Thank you. 20:57:55 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:58:37 Zagaba: cool! 20:59:00 cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:32 BitPuffin: The rest is MIT if I recall correctly 21:00:32 -!- cmm [~cmm@bzq-79-180-126-11.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:01:10 ejbs: MIT and BSD 21:01:15 which are good licenses too 21:01:25 I usually use CC0 these days 21:01:57 even though it is a bit long. 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joined #lisp 22:31:02 -!- seg [~seg@71.80.164.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:31:44 -!- jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-222-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:32:23 MoHaX [~luke@178.122.128.68] has joined #lisp 22:32:59 -!- STilda [~AlexandrK@188.162.166.35] has quit [] 22:36:19 -!- pavelpenev [~quassel@130-204-14-33.2075264485.ddns.cablebg.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:37:07 how do I get rid of this annoying message in sbcl repl without restarting? 22:37:09 ; No debug variables for current frame: using EVAL instead of EVAL-IN-FRAME. 22:37:50 -!- ejbs [~user@5.254.139.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:38:46 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:39:09 are you in the debugger? choose a restart to return to the toplevel 22:40:17 zacharias [~aw@unaffiliated/zacharias] has joined #lisp 22:41:01 sirdancealo2 [~sirdancea@194.228.11.188] has joined #lisp 22:41:26 jsnell_: yeah I managed to get out by causing another prompt on how to recover from an error 22:41:35 jsnell_: how do I do such a thing? 22:41:48 -!- p_l is now known as p_l|x230 22:42:19 -!- CrazyEddy [~CrazyEddy@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:43:20 -!- Pooze [~secret@h-176-10-249-226.na.cust.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:06 seg [~seg@198.23.71.93-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:34 jrghiglia [~user@dynamic-adsl-94-39-222-87.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 22:44:46 -!- seangrove [~user@151.sub-70-197-10.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:44:47 when you enter the debugger, it'll list a number of options for how to continue. choose one of them, either by number or by name 22:45:12 jsnell_: Yes I know, but after you've selected one of them, how do you exit? 22:45:28 sorry, I guess I have no idea what you're talking about after all 22:45:31 other than my crappy way 22:45:57 jsnell_: okay so say I select option 1 or something and that takes me in to the debugger 22:46:10 it's not asking me anymore if I want to be in the debugger, because now I am 22:46:23 how do I get out, other than crashing it and telling it to exit the debugger 22:46:25 are you in slie? 22:46:26 wait, are you actually talking of the sbcl repl? 22:46:27 slime. 22:46:47 there's probably a restart along the lines of "abort", do that one. 22:47:16 -!- MoHaX [~luke@178.122.128.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:47:26 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c156-108.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:48:16 jsnell_: yes 22:48:48 yes the moment I get to the debugger it asks me for a restart 22:50:03 so to leave the debugger, you select one of those restarts 22:50:06 but after that I can pick one (like reduce to debug level 1, or exit debugger and return to top level) after I pick say reduce debug level to debug level 1, how do I get out 22:50:28 jsnell_: Yes but what if I pick one and do some stuff in there, and then I want to go to the top level 22:50:36 you abort. 22:50:43 Bike: (abort) ? 22:50:48 no, choose the abort restart 22:51:03 jsnell_: but it doesn't ask you for a restart every line 22:51:20 just enter the number of the restart. 22:51:25 -!- sohail [~sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:51:27 it doesn't prompt you for one, it will accept them 22:52:48 -!- Shinmera [~linus@xdsl-188-155-176-171.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: ZzzZ] 22:53:16 https://gist.github.com/BitPuffin/7016387 22:53:32 jsnell_: so at the bottom there I can just type 2 22:54:47 you just type 2 and hit enter. though the restarts will be different. 22:55:10 you can type "restart" to get the list of restarts again. 22:55:25 but 2 is an atom so it evaluates to 2 22:55:27 okay 22:55:30 well that's better 22:55:34 just restart and then select 22:55:35 got it 22:55:57 it evaluates because there is no restart 2 in that frame. 22:59:45 -!- normanrichards [~normanric@rrcs-108-178-120-144.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 23:00:15 MoHaX [~luke@178.122.226.108] has joined #lisp 23:01:27 CrazyEddy [~subface@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:01:51 -!- xotedend [~xotedend@c-24-127-49-108.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:03:36 -!- kcj [~casey@unaffiliated/kcj] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:03:50 -!- seg [~seg@198.23.71.93-static.reverse.softlayer.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:07:42 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:13:50 -!- segv- [~mb@95-91-243-233-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:14:21 -!- MoHaX [~luke@178.122.226.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:15:35 Bike: which is exactly what I was trying to say 23:15:38 -!- urandom__ [~user@ip-37-24-114-56.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:17:31 -!- kmder [vDFQeT7W1Y@panix1.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:18:00 lemme5 [~lemme5@afrc204.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 23:18:11 kmder [8Q1Zbv8NKM@panix1.panix.com] has joined #lisp 23:18:13 -!- lemme5 [~lemme5@afrc204.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has left #lisp 23:20:27 -!- scmaccal [~user@ip-64-134-240-171.public.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:24:30 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:27:37 MoHaX [~luke@178.122.254.57] has joined #lisp 23:29:13 isn't it bad for performance to declare all the variables at once in a block (the let list of variables) because that causes the program to pause while allocating all the required memory etc? Isn't it better to declare variables as needed? 23:30:29 ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has joined #lisp 23:31:36 -!- matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:32:27 apfel [~apfel@p5499AAEF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:17 BitPuffin: have you timed how many minutes it takes to allocated 1k of storage? ;-) 23:34:25 sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:38 -!- hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 23:35:01 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:36:50 -!- ltbarcly [~textual@216.113.168.135] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 23:37:02 -!- motionman [~motionman@unaffiliated/motionman] has quit [Quit: tschüß] 23:37:42 DataLinkDroid: haha, but doesn't it depend on the kind of data you are initializing? Say you are loading 3D models etc) 23:38:03 wtf, I'm getting so in to lisp that I finish sentences with ) 23:38:15 (from now on let's talk like this) 23:38:53 hypno [~hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 23:40:58 normally you wouldn't be creating huge data structures in a function. it would be a special variable or a class member probably. 23:41:54 DataLinkDroid: Hmm, well so you usually find let in functions? 23:43:32 drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has joined #lisp 23:43:39 matko [~matko@ip82-139-127-72.lijbrandt.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:55 where else would you put them? there are generic function methods, but they can be thought of as functions too. 23:45:30 -!- sellout- [~Adium@c-98-245-81-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:48:31 -!- drmeister [~drmeister@farnsworth.chem.temple.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:49:09 -!- MoHaX [~luke@178.122.254.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:49:50 DataLinkDroid: I guess it depends. In games it's not uncommon to have large data structures in a function, so there it could be a problem I think. Imagine a function in C for a game where you load a bunch of assets, it is better to allocate the assets memory just before loading them rather than allocating memory for all assets and then loading them. Bad example but you get what I mean, games can have pretty big 23:49:51 data and sometimes they load a lot of it in one func